The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - In The Pocket: Will Levis takes over, Joe Burrow is back, how teams are using tempo, and more

Episode Date: November 9, 2023

Every football fan knows that Joe Burrow is great. But do we all know why he's great? Robert Mays and Chase Daniel dig into that question on this episode of The Athletic Football Show's In The Pocket. The guys also discuss Will Levis taking over in Tennessee, how teams are using tempo this season, and more.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Chase on Twitter: @ChaseDanielSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeThis episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/MAYSand get on your way to being your best self. Find your bright spot this season, with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp dot com slash MAYS today to get 10% off your first month. That’s better HELP dot com slash MAYS.Sign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial period at SHOPIFY DOT COM SLASH mays. Go to SHOPIFY DOT COM SLASH mays now to grow your business–no matter what stage you’re in. SHOPIFY DOT COM SLASH mays.You’ll be amazed at what you can do with Grammarly. Go to grammarly.com/ATHLETICFOOTBALL to download for FREE today. That’s G-R-A-M-M-A-R-L-Y DOT COM SLASH ATHLETICFOOTBALL.New to Etsy? Use the code HOLIDAY10 for ten percent off your first purchase. That’s code HOLIDAY10. Maximum discount value of fifty dollars. Expires December 31st, 2023. See terms at Etsy dot com slash terms. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show in this edition of In the Pocket. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today, long time NFL quarterback, Chase Daniel. Chase, how you doing? Good, good. We're at the midway point, man. It's crazy.

It's wild. Like, I was doing a show the other day and talking about, like, someone brought it up. It's the midway point. I was like, what? It's already the midway point? Like, it's wild because when you're playing, it seems like the days just drag on. And the weeks drag on because of the monotony of just like you're doing the same thing every Tuesday, same thing every Wednesday, same thing every Thursday. And then so when you're playing, it feels a lot longer.

But when you're not playing and newly retired and on the show, it's like, oh, like it's already, it's already been through nine weeks. Like it's completely different. So my mind, my mind's crazy. I played in a charity golf tournament on Monday. And I just felt like for whatever reason the first time I felt like I need to be doing something else. and having fun. Like, I feel like I need to be preparing for a game, or I feel like I need to be studying film.

And then it's like, well, no, no, step back. Like, you've done it enough. Like, you can do it. So, like, I think that was just like a big reckoning for me. Like, hey, hey, it's good. Just relax a little bit. For me, the first quarter of the season felt like it happened very fast. But when you get four games in, you still don't make any definitive statements.

It's still such a small sample. And so that felt like it went a long time. We're like, ah, it's only four games. And then to me, it felt instantly like we were at the halfway point. And now I think you could actually make some more confident statements, confident proclamations about where some of these teams are, which we'll do a little bit today. But we'll also dig into some of the best performances from last weekend, some more big picture stuff. Just on a – I want to continue down this road a little bit, though.

A lot of guys, when they retire, you know, there are questions about how am I going to fill my time? How am I going to find kind of purpose day to day? What has that process been like for you? and a year one away from the game. Yeah, it's been interesting for sure because that's, like I was the part of the PA, the NFLPA for, I guess 12 of my 14 years and I was a voting rep for eight of the 14. So I was in there, one of 32 guys making decisions. And those decisions affected not only future players, but current players and former players

as well. And the biggest thing we ran into and always talked about was what does life after sports look like? how do you combat the just all of a sudden you are 25 years old and you've played three and a half years, which is the average career and you are retired at 25 and a half. What are you going to do? Because all you've done your entire life is play football. And it's a daunting and honestly like people don't get it.

Like it's a scary thing to think about. And I think for me personally, I've sort of learned from past people to. to like, hey, sort of see what you want to do a couple years before you know the end is coming. And that was media for me. And I think helping, it helped last year that I worked for NFL network while I was playing, right? And so I really enjoyed that. And then so I sort of had a plan going into this offseason like, hey, the playing might still be on the table.

If it's not, then I want to do this media thing. And then so honestly, like, dude, I'm more busy now than what I was playing. Like, like all the kids drop-offs. we had a kid party today. We got three different, like we got three separate kids. Two of them go to separate schools. One of them at home with us who's two years old who just wrecks the house at all times. Like wife is constantly chasing around.

So like you have that. I'm making lunches. I'm drop off. I'm pick up. I'm doing three shows. I'm doing quarterback breakdown. So it's, it's really felt good to sort of find a purpose not only as a husband,

but also just sort of feel like, okay, this is what we're going to be doing here for the foreseeable future because I really like it. We've had a good time doing it. And so I've been one of the lucky ones to be able to have that happen to me. What would you say you miss the most right now? It's without a doubt the locker room. Like not the practices, not the, well, I miss the games.

Okay, actually going out there and doing it. But it's a camaraderie, right? It's a locker room talk. It's the where you can go to work and you're playing a game for a living. And now, granted, it's a very important game. It's other than soccer. It's the most watched game in the entire world. world. And so that to me, it's like, someone always told me this, and I think it was one of my long term,

long term trainers who trained me in the off season for the past 14 years. His name is Todd Durkin. He said, you need to read this book. And I haven't read it yet. But it's like, how do you go from MVP to like a little bit of no one? Because you're at the highest stage. You're at the highest level. And I don't care, I don't care if you're the 69th guy on practice squad. Like the six team, you're like the one that's, like, you are a part of something special. There's only 32 organizations in the entire league that has that. And then you go all of a sudden, you're out of the league, you're out of the spotlight, you're out. And so you've got to sort of find a way and you've got to find, um, like your meaning like way deeper than just like a football player. Because I always viewed myself as

like, I'm a football player, but I'm way more than that. And so my identity wasn't truly in football, at least the last like six or seven years. Probably the first of, first, first, you know, six, seven years of my career, I was very, like, this is who I, and then once I had kids, you get your priorities straight, you get married, you have all sorts of other things. So I think that really grounded me and that's really helped along the way. Mine is obviously in a much, much different level. I'm thinking about it a lot this week, though, because I'm going to my high school's game on Saturday. They're undefeated and it's the playoffs.

I'm like, I'm going to go. They've been to the state quarterfinals seven times in 20 years. They've never made it past that. And that's how far we got. So every time they get that far, I like to go. because just in case they break through, like, it's a good program that has never made it. And so I'm going. So I've been thinking a lot about it this week.

And I just vividly remember my freshman year of college being so depressed that fall because you just didn't have that connective tissue that, like, is the way I defined myself for so long. And I remember walking out of my dorm, you know, when it got to like October. And there was just a chill in the air. And it was a Friday night. And I was like, this doesn't feel right. Like, I should be doing something right now. Like, there's something missing right now.

And that for me, that was four years when I was a teenager, let alone 15 years of your adult life as you're trying to ground yourself in who you are and where you find purpose and where you find meaning. So I always like talking to guys recently retired about that and just what that process is like because I think it's really hard for people outside of it to understand. Yeah. I mean, if you don't go through it, you can just look at it from sort of a 40,000 foot view up and just say, in general, retired guys are like, man, they had the best job in the world. old. Like what are the they made millions of dollars. They had everything. It's just like, dude, okay, yeah, we get paid a lot, but we're humans. We are humans. There's a human aspect to this that

we have emotions. Yeah, we play a really cool game. But like people don't understand the day to day life and the scrutiny and then honestly the sacrifices that our families have made for us to be able to go on this journey. Like my wife has moved us like six times in eight years. And she's just like, I'm done. Like I'm going to, we're going to stay. stay here in San Diego. Like, if you want to keep playing cool, you're going to do it in your own, though. Like, I just can't do it. Kids are getting the school age.

And I'm like, it just, I think as you get older, right, I'm 37. I think I'm 37. I'm going to be 38 this year. You're a year older than me. That's what I know. Holy cow. Yeah, I'll be 38 this year. That's wild.

And then you're still playing a game as 38. And then you have 20 year olds come into the locker room and you just keep getting older. They stay the same age. It's just an interesting dynamic on how to balance all of that. But we're about the same age. You're a year older than me. You're a year ahead of me in school. And in high school, I remember, like, the, like, reading, like, high school football

magazines when I was a junior and, like, reading about the South Lake Carroll team you were on. But you've always been a year ahead of me. It's been very, like, I've been very aware of it. And the idea that you guys retire in their mid-30s, which is the age that I am now, and you kind of face all this uncertainty for the next 20, 30, 40 years of your life. I mean, I know it for athletes, mid-30s seems old. and that's what we understand.

Guys retire at that age. But I kind of put myself in those shoes and just think, if I had to start over right now, at the age that I'm in now and kind of face the rest of my life, that can feel pretty daunting. Think about like from a football perspective. It's a little different. Like I started playing football when I was eight years old.

Okay. And then do you just take four years of high school, four years of college, I mean, that 14 in the NFL, it's 22 years. The last 22 years, all I've known is football. And I've been, smart in that I've wanted to also learn other things and are passionate about other things and and just sort of I mean because honestly like even to year 10 or even 11 I was like what am I going

to do after I'm done that's why I see so many guys get into coaching yeah because it's it's the next best thing but then I was thinking well I don't want to do coaching like these work so long and I'm going to have no family life my wife's going to divorce me I won't have kids like no way like no way and then I was like well the media thing could be be good. And then, you know, I've always done like spoofs and all sorts of things. Like I did a Chicago Bears one. Um, I mean, you know, but about the Mitch Trubisky training camp one. And, and people were like, dude, I still get, because I was just like, I dressed up as a fan and I had a bucket hat on. And I tried to go around and get guys autographs. And sure enough, 80% of the guys I went up to, including Mitch Trubisky and

Matt Nagy, no, I, no clue who I was. Like put on a bear's jersey, a bucket hat on. It got like a million and a half views in the first 24 hours. And I got so many people saying, oh my gosh, like you can, like, how in the world did you pull that out? If you're good in front of the camera. And I think that was sort of the turnpillar. I'm like, well, you know, I sort of enjoy it. I can be myself. And my whole thing, getting to this media thing in this media game and what I'm doing and what I'll continue to do, I think. It's just like, I just want to be myself. Like everyone else is taken. I don't want to try to be somebody I'm not. And that's sort of how I took it to the locker room is like you're going to get if you're a fraud dude you're going to get found out whether it's

now or 10 years down the road it's hard to be a fraud you can only be yourself and so that's what i want to do is and teach the game like just let people have insights to the quarterback room and there's so much in there so it's it's really cool that i've been given the opportunity to sort of be able to do this on multiple platforms and it's been fun so far so hopefully we can we can continue this moving forward your personality lends to it i'm very jealous of that i wish i was wired to do this well unfortunately, that's not the case, but we're going to do our best. You know you're damn good. I really, really don't, but I appreciate that. Let's get into some of the most important kind of notable stuff that happened this week. The Josh Dobbs performance, obviously we've talked about it a few

different times on this show, but I want to kind of dig deeper and maybe take it a little bit wider than we have so far with some specific elements to it. Just first and foremost, though, you broke us down on your YouTube channel, you rewatch the game. I'm just curious, baseline level, what is the most impressive thing in your mind that you saw from him on Sunday as you think about the context of everything he had to go through. The fact that he was able to get one completion, like, I'm going to be completely honest. Like, like, like you, it is so hard to put into words what he was able to do, not only from the fact that he was with the Arizona Cardinals seven days or five days before and he had just had a three touchdown performance and then ends up leading a game winning drive

in having a three touchdown performance six touchdowns in two weeks for two teams like at the most important position in all of sports okay so i mean he is a rocket scientist let's just be real with that like i saw the nassas shout out that nassah gave him i'm like that's so cool like nasa's giving him a shout out on twitter for what he's doing but i just love the fact like he it could have gone really really bad okay because the first 15 of 18 snaps he was in it was a sack for a safety clay as camball on a three man rush and two separate fumbles. And on those fumbles, I will say he's trying to get the ball out. One of them is right tackle causes it. And the other one, he's trying to throw it and the guy strips him right there. But those are two turnovers and a safety on your side of the field.

So you could have mentally just been like, man, like blow up, like I can't handle it. Like, no way. But it's just funny how sort of the team rallied together and how everyone rallied around him. And the fact that he was able to do it. he did on five days. I mean, he didn't take a rep. He didn't take a rep in practice. So it's just, it's mind blowing to me that he was able even to operate.

I was so impressed just with everything that was happening. Watching him and Kevin O'Connell, even in real time, when he'd come off and they'd be going through certain details about his drop and where he should be looking. And it's just so fun to watch a level of intentional coaching like that in real time, where you just see what really separates the guy. who are so good at understanding the communication aspect of it,

what he should be kind of communicating to his quarterback, how you articulate some of those ideas. It was so cool to watch. And one of the elements that I was just most blown away by is that later in the game, they had to use tempo. Like, he's running the no huddle offense for stretches of this game without having any baseline knowledge, not only of how the no huddle works,

but of how the offense works in general. So I wanted to kind of take this a little bit wider and talk about some of the mechanics, annex associated with tempo in the NFL. To me, it's been one of the bigger kind of underserved storylines in the entire league so far this year is how teams have tapped into it really to find offense during a season where offense has been hard to find. I use the Buffalo Bills on Thursday night against the box is a really good example where they're just working at the line of scrimmage. They're going fast these Vikings against San Francisco on that Monday night game where it played from the line of scrimmage really helped them. And so I wanted to talk about just how the.

mechanics of that aspect of the game works. How do tempo offenses work just in terms of the mechanics and just the steps that go into it? I'm sure it's different for individual teams, but just on a general level, just walk me through how this works. Well, I think there's three different types of tempo. And let's just start with just one word code code code plays, I guess you would say. So say, hey, banana, banana. We used to have that. It was like K4 Y banana. It was the John Grun one in New Orleans. Hey, banana, banana, banana.

And it would be like that word, you probably have, like, you probably have six or seven, depending on the week of like, hey, bandana, banana, special, center, like all sorts of different words. And it can change every week. And the quarterback's just yelling it out. And you just want to go as fast as humanly possible. And it's not because they're. doing it. It's usually good versus all plays. And you're just trying to catch them off guard. Usually it's like, hey, the offensive coordinator or the play caller will like call it into my ear or

the quarterback's here and say, hey, here's the play on first down. We're going to go banana second down. Like don't even like, so you get two calls and you're alerting the huddle. Hey, look, guys, we practice it. We're going Y stick nod X out right here. And then on the ball, get on the ball. Okay. And we're going to run banana. Banana banana. So that's sort of how it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, It's into the year. And then you get up to the line. You run the Y-Sick X out, Y-Sick not X out. And then you're on the ball.

Just banana, banana, banana. And it's a formation. It's a play call. It's a personnel grouping. It is a protection all in one. So that word banana stands for literally everything. Everyone on the field knows. And they can do it from like multiple personnel grouping.

So that's the best thing about it. You can do it from 12, 11. 22, 13. And that's something that teams would practice. And we would practice every week is like, all right, like it's easy to run a play out of 11 personnel. But let's see how we do it out of 22 personnel, two backs, two tight ends. And those backs are going to maybe have to line up at receiver based on the formation. So if that makes sense, if you're following me, and then you go up there and you try to run it. And there's no, there's no anything about it. It's just like, hey, let's just tempo into second down. And then another thing on that tempo into second down is that you,

can also have these plays on third down. And that's where I've had a lot of success, whether it be the Matt Nagy offense or the Andy Reid offense or Joe Lombardi offense. And that can be a little bit more extensive. And you usually use those code words when you want to tempo into third down when a team has a really exotic blitz package. Like I would take the Baltimore Ravens, for example, or the Minnesota Vikings back in their heyday, or even this, they're the most blitzers. team. Let's just say Minnesota Vikings today, it might keep them out of their insanely crazy pressure package. So if you get the team in base defense on second down and you're in 12 personnel, and I'm playing the Minnesota Vikings, I'm damn sure probably going to tempo into third down to

keep them out of this exotic pressure package, to keep this out of the quarterback, wondering what's happening so fast and having to remake it because it keeps their base defense on the field. And out of Base defense, Minnesota is not that they're going to bring five. That's it. That's all they're doing. And so you can gain advantages by doing that on third down. Okay. The second one is a two minute. Like you can, hey, we're in two minute mode right here. All right. So you're in two minute mode and everyone on the entire team knows, hey, we have a menu of eight two by two passes and eight trips packages. So two by two formation, three by one formation. Here's the plays and you learn it from OTAs on. And so it's like literally special, special, special. It's the same thing.

It's the same menu of place in the same vocabulary. It's, it's different. I'd say it's different because week to week the first ones when I was saying like banana, those can change. Gotcha. Okay. I would say your two minute package and tempo, those are your plays for the entire year and you're rolling and you're running it. And that's the exact same thing. Now, a quarterback might have to tell the old line, hey, trip, trip, trip. okay, hey, we want three jet protection, three jet protection. The protection can change. The personnel changes, whereas the one word tempo on maybe first down, those don't change.

It's just like is what it is. That's all you say. And so the two minute drill, if teams don't have those one word code tempos, some people just like to be like, hey, let's just get like we're slow on offense. We've had three puns in a row. And I think Josh Allen honestly operates better out of the two minute tempo, which they have used. Because a lot of times when you're operating like that and you're pushing a defense to get set, they're probably not going to do these crazy coverages and blitzes as well. So you're going to get more cover two, cover four, cover three, man. And a lot of these are just good versus all. And if it's not and you have four verticals versus cover two, which really is not the best. Or let's just say four verticals versus cover four.

And you just check the ball down. And you're playing faster and allows your quarterback really not to think because he knows it in the back of his head, like the back of his palm. Like it's just because you've practiced it all of OTAs, if that makes sense. And then the third one, I'm sure you weren't ready for this long way of answer, but I came prepared. Listen, you can go as long as you want to, buddy. I'm loving this. The third one is what I thought was, and I'm going to make a YouTube video of this, because I thought this was like clinic, clinic tape from Kevin O'Connell and the Minnesota Vikings against San Francisco 49ers. I thought what they did at the line of scrimmage really changed the

for that game against Sam Fran. And what they did was, hey, we call it, we called it like sunglasses or goggles. Just like take a look. Line up in three by one or two by two. Ready, blue 80, but they say hot, hot, hot, hot. Okay, what are they in? What are they in? KOC, get my head. Okay, okay, hey, let's go. Bingo, bingo, bingo, bingo, bingo. And so you're actually saying what is the best play at the best time versus the defense that they had. If that makes any, And I'm telling you, the Minnesota bike, you look, he operated at the line of scrimmage. Kirk Cousins did more than I have ever seen him do it. And it was an amazing plan.

And finally, not until the fourth quarter, finally Sam Fran decided, hey, you know what? When they check, we're going to check. So then things weren't open in the fourth quarter. And that's sort of when it got a little close. They finally made a change. So those are the three types of tempo that I've been around that can really affect the way the defense is playing. I need a drink of water now. It's so fascinating because we've gotten to this place, if you look at kind of the landscape of the league, where defenses, it's a lot of just shell-based coverages. You line it up in a cover four look. It can express as anything. So the offenses need all-purpose plays, but also you have very few answers before the snap even happens. There's so many different ways the defense can distribute. It's hard to understand exactly what you're going to get. So how do you find ways to simplify those looks or give yourself more information?

You can dictate it with personnel a little bit, and teams try to do that. But doing this with tempo by either, one, keeping their personnel grouping on the field that you won in the field, two, keeping them simple because, like you said, they can't get into some of these more exotic looks. And three, you can get into the best play for the best look because you have a little bit more information. So this just feels like one tool, one weapon as defenses have risen to meet offenses that kind of give offenses a chance to have the pen last. and continue to try to dictate to some of these defenses where it's become more difficult. Yeah, and you hit it right on. That's exactly right.

That's a little bit easier than what I said to understand and to... You got the details. I got the dumb down version. I'm ready to look at that. Yeah, but the dumb down version is really good too because I would say that's 100% correct. Because I would say defenses nowadays and it's been like the lowest points per game through week nine in like the last 20 years. Like it's like the year of the defense is what I like to say.

It is. It's wild, okay? And I would say, I don't necessarily think offenses have changed. I just think defenses has morphed into something that maybe helps them a little bit more, if that makes sense. Like, they're able to understand how offenses are working a little bit better. And now offenses are having to go back to the drawing board a little bit, and you're seeing it more and more. Like, I'm telling you, if you haven't watched the all 22 of that Minnesota Vikings performance against San Fran, I was impressed.

Like, it is truly like that is how you end up blitzing a defense. When defenses, they were playing really well. Sam Fran was at the time on defense. Last three games, not so hot. But they have been playing really well. And then the way Minnesota was able to understand what they're doing to simplify it, but also to get like cover three beaters or this way of cover four beaters after like a play call had already been in and put a lot on Kirk's like plate,

that to me was really, really good offensive football. to me that feels like an example of how important it is for a quarterback to be in a system multiple years. Because now that he's in year two, halfway into his second season within that offense, you could start to build on the layers. That's just something you would never be able to do two weeks into your first season. But a year into it with an entire off season to kind of digest what you want to be and who you are, that is a very good example of that to me. Yeah.

But I also think, like you look at Josh Jobs, he was in it for five days. And that's what's the crazy thing about it is. is that he was still doing that in the second half, but it was a little bit different. And it was the way he operated was, hey, get to the huddle, hot, hot, hut, hut. And then he comes back and you can see it clear his day. And he's just sort of looking,

he's listening to KOC in his ear, okay? And KOC's like, hey, we got an out and a go on your left. He's literally telling him, out, go. And on your right, it's an out and a hitch. Work this side versus cover two, work this side versus, he's literally telling them all that in 15 seconds. I mean, almost every play. That's literally what Dobbs and KOC said.

Mind-blown, like, amazing coaching job by KOC. And that's why KOC said at the end of the game, he's like, I will remember this win for the rest of my life. Like it was, it was mind-blowing. It is incredible. Like, people literally, like, and I'm trying to tell, I'm trying to like, why is national media not like literally like salivating over this? And I saw a couple good articles on it.

But like, it's just the way to operate. I can't even imagine. being thrust in that situation. We've already had a 15-minute long Josh Dobbs conversation on this show three or four weeks ago with what he was doing in Arizona and how he was redefining his career. And then you have this, which is,

it's one of the moments I'll remember from this season. You know, you do this long enough, and I think this is probably my 10th, 11th year covering the NFL full time, and there's a lot of stuff runs together, and you kind of get into the rhythms of it, the inertia can take over every once in a while. But each year, things stick out.

Things kind of grab you by the shirt, collar. It's like, this is what you're going to remember from this year. And that game that Josh Dobbs had and all the stories about just how they were doing this, like what practically it looked like in real time, it was an incredible moment. So we'll dig it to some more like at the line of scrimmage stuff. I think later on in the show, there are a few other things I wanted to talk about. But let's talk about a couple performances from last week that we haven't been able to get to yet. We have not discussed the Will Levis game against the Steelers on this show because we didn't have a Thursday night recap last week because I was on the road for a funeral. So I

appreciate that. And so I wanted to ask you, going back and watching the Will Levis game against the Steelers, what stood out to you about the way that he played in his second game against Pittsburgh? I would say, I would say the first thing, I mean, there's a lot of different. The first thing, though, was both two-minute drives. Like, both two-minute drives against one of the better defenses that just makes their living on sacks and turnovers. And the two-minute drive at the end of the half was amazing. Like, made this third and 13 throw office back foot on this little corner and up, versus quarters coverage that I was just like, what? Like you watch it and you're like he doesn't look like a rookie who's in his second start.

Like just doesn't look like that way. And quite honestly, I don't know if America was ready for him because you look at what Vrabel said about him. He's like, yeah, he's a third quarterback. Like everyone just sort of like wrote him off. Like, yeah, he fell in the draft. And man, he, I mean, he's one of 10 rookie quarterbacks to now start because Tommy DeVito is starting this coming Sunday at 10. It's a, it's a record. It's the most ever, which is wild to me.

And it just looks like he's, he's ready to play. Like it's a two minute drive and then a two minute drive with no timeouts after that, like they had two two minute drives in the second half at the end of the game. His first one didn't end so hot. But then to be able to to actually drive down and give yourself and your team a chance to win on the road in Blitzburg that's still curtain of a defense and that's how they're winning. They're not winning because of their offense of play. They're winning because of their defense. Like it's, it's a moral victory for the guy because he was, and it really honestly probably showed the team more in his second start than he did his first start when he threw for four touchdowns. I totally agree. Like he showed way,

because like a lot of times it can be this like, you know, catches lightning in the bottle and it's like, okay, cool. And then the rest of the season just, uh, I was just so impressed with the way he operated, just in general, like just able to actually go out there. And you see him at the line of scrimmage calling out Mike IDs, switching protections, signaling. And I'm like, this guy was ready for his opportunity. And he proved it to his team. And that's why Mike Vrable said earlier this week that he's going to be the start of moving forward.

It's funny watching the mix of moments where they really trusted him and moments where they didn't. Remember they got the ball near midfield late in the game. They ran the ball three times, ultimately didn't get a first down. That was frustrating to me to watch because earlier in the game, I think it was on their second drive. They have first and 23 from their five-yard line. That was sweet. And they lined up in empty. They line up an empty on first and 23 from their own five.

And I'm like, that's a beautiful throw. Just a beautiful throw. And them doing that, I'm like, man, that's a lot to put on a guy in his second start on the road in Pittsburgh in the shadow of his own goalpost, is giving him that look on first and 23. and he fires a bullet. And listen, it's a mixed bag. He threw three or four balls in this game that six inches one way or the other, they're intercepted.

And that's before the last drive. I don't care. You're throwing an interception when you're down to touchdown with a minute left. I don't give a shit. Like, you've got to try to make something happen. But there are plenty of throws he put up for grabs. So it's not all perfect, but some of the in-breaking routes, the throw under pressure outside the numbers that he hit that was gorgeous.

What is most impressive to me is, the first. physical talent is undeniable. The guy has a hose. The arm angles are very real. The release. The release is beautiful. It reminds me, and this is, I don't, I hesitate to use this word, but it's, or this guy's name, but it's the guy that kept coming up when I was thinking about it.

The way he throws the football reminds me of Zach Wilson, but he is bigger than Zach Wilson. And so I think, he's been doing too many curls. I'm like, chill out, man. So I think that, and that stuck out to me, multiple times in this game, where the strength he has in the pocket is actually a really important thing because he can get out of pressure. He made throws wall getting tackled. And with this offensive line, he's going to have to deal with a lot of muddy pockets. So it was a really fascinating experience watching that second game because I thought we learned a lot more than we did

the first game. Yeah. And that's what that's what I probably stood out the second most was the pockets weren't great. Obviously, because you're not going to be on that team. You get high Smith and you got Watt and you got, you know, Watt was lining up over the center, all sorts of games. They were ready for them. But he just sort of stood in there and he didn't look, I hate to use the word frightened, but sometimes rookies are not, maybe, not frightened is not the right word. Maybe just like spooked a little bit of like the type of pass rush.

They're bothered a little bit. He, honestly, I don't know if it's a good thing or better. He didn't look bothered at all. Like it was just like step up, guys at my feet. He's getting sawed down, which I don't, like that one where he got taken out. as he's throwing his ink. I didn't know how that was not roughing the passer. And but there's a couple of those that were just like that. And he's just able to contort his body in a way that I'm like, whoa, like it just makes you on film. Like, whoa. Like it actually is like, hey, like, hold on. Like,

like let me rewind that. And did you just make this type of throw in a muddy pocket from a different arm angle? And sure enough, he has. I mean, the, the arm strength, the arm strength looks better than I thought coming out of the draft. Like he, like I'm saying, he's doing some curls. He's doing some bitch, he's doing some arms, some shoulder, like everything, because it, it, it stood out to me. He's already the most jacked quarterback in the league, right? Who else would even be in the conversation? I mean, he reminds me not yet and don't ever get like this, Willevis, but the Brady Quinn. Like, Brady Quinn was like so yoked and such a meathead that he just want to be just benching. I'm like, dude, don't do that. But like, this dude is definitely, Will Levis is definitely doing some arm curls.

Yeah, he might be the most jacked. quarterback in the league. There are some secretly jacked quarterbacks. Like Justin Herbert is like way more jacked than I think people understand. Carr is pretty jacked. But I think he already has that. But so the pocket presence, and I think this is a very important distinction. It's why

I hesitated to say Zach Wilson's name at any point. The difference, the key difference between those two guys outside of the size, when you watch Will Levis at Kentucky, he's lived this life. That offensive line in Kentucky last year and just the supporting cast period, he was under

duress constantly. So we've already seen him have to navigate those spaces. Decision-making and then a willingness to hang out of the ball too long were some of the things that people were worried about coming into the draft. When you watch Zach Wilson at BYU, the arm strength and the arm talent was undeniable the same way it is now, but he never, ever had to deal with an ounce of pressure that entire year because they were always at a talent advantage. So the fact that all the stuff that we want to see translate in terms of the arm strength and that physical ability is combining with his ability to kind of still deal with those muddy situations. I think that there is a lot to like about what you've seen from him so far. And after that game was over, I've said pretty definitively,

I was like, there's no reason he shouldn't keep playing. You have run out of reasons why he should be the quarterback for the rest of the season. And clearly Tennessee came to that same conclusion. Well, and that's what I, that was my first thought was at like, like, you know, the first game, it was like, okay, like, yeah, he played really well and he was just dropping bombs. Like I was like, okay, you're not going to be able to bomb at every single game. I want to be able to see you work underneath. I want to see your middle range accuracy. I want to see your deep brain accuracy on the outcuts. And after the game against Pittsburgh, I mean, that's what came to my mind. I'm like, he's going to be really have a hard time going back to the bench. Like they're going to be like, we draft them for a reason. He's got to be able to run with it. They might make him late. season push, who knows, but it's definitely we'll love his time in Tennessee, in my opinion. People are going to talk a lot about

why did we miss, if this keeps going, right, if he hits and he works out, and it's way too early to start having this conversation. But if that happens, people are going to be like, well, why did he follow the second round? Why did this happen? And I think it's important to recognize that there are elements to his

evaluation that make you worried. Like his willingness to stand in there and take sacks. He would just get crushed. in the pocket last year at Kentucky, just absolutely crushed. And some of the decision-making stuff is real. Like, too often I think we've talked ourselves into these big armed guys who can throw the ball a mile when they have, there's, overall, they're lacking in other areas. So I don't think it's as simple as you watch that first couple games and you see how he

throws the ball and say, how did that guy fall into the second round? Like, there are, there were definitely concerns coming in. It probably fell further than people thought, but this isn't, I don't want the revisionist history to creep in quite yet. Like there were actual tangible reasons why he wasn't somebody that was drafted as high as those other guys were. Yeah, there's no doubt about it. And honestly, I just think it's, it's such a crap. We talk about all this.

It's such a crap shoot evaluating quarterbacks in college because it's just, you don't really know how good guys are until they're able to run an NFL offense. And that's why, like, the Brock Purdy thing to me is, is wild still because he's like, you know, Mr. Relevant. And he's, he's balling. And it's just like, you've got to give guys like this a chance to develop. And it was almost better for Will to sort of sit back to watch Tanale, to watch Malik, and just be like, okay, like, I tell this all the time. And it's Aaron Rogers thing. He's sat for like three or four years before he, because he was able to understand the grasp and grasp the offense and not just be thrust into action and then make so many mistakes where your confidence is killed. Like I think this was really good timing for Will Levis to make his debut and his second start.

And quite honestly, I'm looking forward to watching them moving forward. But what if Tana Hill doesn't get hurt? What if Tana Hill plays this entire season and we never get to see him play? He clearly wasn't showing enough in practice for them to be like, oh, yeah, he's definitely the backup quarterback. So there would be a chance that we would have gotten all the way to the end of the year, and they wouldn't have known what they have in him. And it's just another example that every once in a while, which is better to be lucky

than it is to be smart. Yeah. And then honestly, there's this thing called gamers. Like, I used to suck in practice at Missouri. Like, I just was, like, I wouldn't suck. But it would just be like, Okay, but then sometimes when those lights turn on and between those white lines, especially quarterbacks, like you don't want to be known as a gamer as a quarterback because

you want to have good practice habits. But for me, it was just like, man, I just felt it in the game. He looks like a gamer to me. It's just like when it comes on, it just hits. It just makes sense for him. So his talent and what makes him different is obvious. It jumps off the screen when you watch Will Levis play. A guy for whom that's not the case is Joe Burrow.

And I wanted to talk about Joe Burrow and the game that he had on Sunday, but also just have a larger conversation about Joe Burrow because he's only been back for like two weeks. So we really haven't had a chance to dig into the good of Joe Burrow. And it was funny. When I wanted to do a show about quarterbacks and I wanted to just show with an NFL quarterback to kind of give us some more context about these guys, Joe Burrow is the guy I kept coming back to. Because unlike Patrick Mahomes, unlike Josh Allen, unlike Justin Herbert, I think a lot of the things that make Joe Burrow. great outside of the pocket movement stuff, which you can't see, is subtler. So after you watch that game on Sunday against Buffalo, and even the last couple games that he played, if you were trying to explain to someone, what makes Joe Burroughs special?

Where would you start? That's so, I mean, dude, when you were telling me, when we were talking about this pre-show production, I was just like, I have no clue. Like, that's a good thing. And I think I came to, I came to realization that he, He does everything really well. Like, in my opinion, there's no true weakness in his game, which just tells you the consistent level that he plays at.

And I think that's probably what I'd go with is the consistency. He's always like a top 10, you rarely see him have a bad game. And you rarely see him make mistakes. So it's just like calm, cool, collected, Joe cool. right like they like they like to call them and it's just a consistent level of really high level play when you know a lot of times when you say consistent they're like oh that's a bad adjective on the way to describe people I'm like I love it because it's not only consistent but it's consistent at a high level and he just does the small things right whether it's subtle movements in the pocket or whether just this this like look off of

the eye when he knows where he's going he's got such a feel for that all offense and Sincy that it just runs through him. And you could tell. I mean, the calf bothered him so much more than he probably led on. And honestly, Jemar Chase was on to something. And he said, hey, I don't need Joe Burrow back to like week seven or week eight. And look at the last two weeks. Like to me, when I really went down and watched Joe Burrow in the San Fran game, which that defense was reeling at the time, but you could tell they were probably going to come in and be like, all right, we're going to, you know, we got, we got Burrow, we're going to stick it to him. and then the way he was able to operate.

Dude, the dude was, like, the dude was checking to a QB draw on third and nine and not telling his receivers that he was checking to it. He would, like, signal it and he checked. And even, you know, big left tackle or like Atlanta Brown is like, what are you doing? Like, are you, okay, we're doing it. And third and not any, so like that to me, and the way he moved within the pocket. I mean, everyone saw that viral video of him, like everything that goes through a quarterback Mike's mine. It was like this like, all right, looks right, looks left, looks left, stiff arms is left tackle,

gets out of a sack from Eric Armstead, stiff arms Joe, or Nick Bosa, goes around the edge, throws a dart, like all this that goes into it. And I was just like, man, I got to, I got to break this film down. And it was just everything that he did, he just does at a high level. I mean, that's, it's hard to point something out that just separates him. But that's obviously what the, what the Bengals love about him, too. I believe it was their first or second touchdown on drive against Buffalo. There was a sequence that I just think really encapsulates who he is. The bill send a corner blitz off of his left side and he shakes it off.

I mean, he's, he weighs 225 probably. He's like 6'3. He's bigger than you think he'd be. So there's a guy who's 185, 190, he's able to get out of that stuff. And it to me is a non-negotiable part of why he's great. Like his ability to actually shake guys off in the pocket beyond the pocket feel, he's big and strong. And that shows up all the time.

So he shakes it off, escapes to his left, finds T. Higgins for a little completion in the flat. That's one play. Same drive. They send a simulated pressure at him with the defensive end dropping. And he knows exactly where his space is there. He knows that guy's not going to get wide enough. And he hits Irv Smith. It's a little stick.

You know, it's an eight-yard game. But just how quickly he sees that and understands, he's not going to be able to get to that spot. And I know it. And then that drive gets finished. off with him just the ball placement on the corner out to Irv Smith is insane. And so that to me, like that three-place stretch, that's who he is, where you have the ability to create in the pocket and the strength, you have his understanding of defensive structure and where space will exist.

I think he's so good at that. And if you look at what the Bengals offense has been over the last several years, they're starting to tweak it. There's more play action. There's more under center. there's more motion now. But the reason that they were so comfortable being so spread out is that when you have proper spacing within your offense, there's like a 90% chance that he's going to find

the right choice. And you just see it all the time. When their routes distribute and their space correctly, you can only make so many right decisions as a defense. And he understands structure so well that he's consistently going to make the right choice. And then you combine that with. how aggressive he is when the one-on-one situations present themselves.

And that's another reason that I love him is that the go-balls, he's going to take him. He had one that was almost a touchdown of Tyler Boy in that game. He took a shot to Jamar Chase that got broken up. But the amount of post-up completions he has to T. Higgins in those one-on-one scenarios, he just, he knows. He's like, eh, there's no way that this is a bad matchup for me. So the understanding of matchup, the understanding of spacing, It's, I will be honest with this.

When I first watched him play, it was easier for me to understand why Justin Herbert was great. And it's like, ah, yeah, that's Josh Allen. And then over the last couple of years as I've watched Joe play, I've just come to appreciate who he is so much and how surgical he can be within confined space within an offense or within a defense. And I just think you've really gotten to see that over the last couple of games. And it makes this team really dangerous. Well, and that's like of all the things you said, I mean, everything was spot on, but the elite level of decision making. Yeah. Like that's not talked about enough in quarterback.

You can have all the strength and all the like arm strength, like whatever you want in the world. And you can have all the tools of the trade as a quarterback. But if you can't see the game and process the game and understand the game at a level, that not only understands your offense, but also where they're at and the space in the defense, just like you said, then you're not going to be a good quarterback. And so I think that is, the more you say it, that's what separates him, because rarely is he throwing. It reminds me of Peyton Manning in Denver, the year he threw for so many, like, and I hate to say it, but I'm not say he is Peyton Mania, but I would say that what Peyton did that year was it was elite

actually underneath, knew when to get to screens, and then when shots, like, came up during the game, he would take them and he would hit them every single time. He was never putting the ball in harm's way on these shot plays. He knew when to take them. He knew the nuances of how a game was flowing, the ebbs and flows, and he was able to do that and take it. And I think that's, and I think that's what Joe does. Joe doesn't ever really try to force things. And so when you really look at it from a decision-making standpoint, he has such a grasp on that offense that's completely transformed that organization to where he and Zach Taylor are on the same page saying, hey, you got it, man. Like, your decision-making is more important than your arm's strength. Because I would say his arm strength

is above average. Like, it's not anything crazy, but he throws with anticipation. It's fine. That's perfect. He throws with anticipation. He's extremely accurate, but he knows where to go with the football from from his mind and the way he prepares and just that six sense of like, okay, I feel that a defense is doing this. I'm going to do this. And that to me, I mean, glad you said that that to me is sort of what separates him. Late career Peyton Manning is actually a good comparison because I think people who are younger that didn't watch early career Peyton Manning, Peyton Manning could sling a football when he was younger. And he was a much better athlete than people remember.

Peyton Manning was like a pretty good at all the stretch play action that they would run. Like Peyton Manning, late career Peyton Manning was not early career Peyton Manning. But in terms of arm strength and how you have to live, it's actually probably a better comparison even at age 26 for Joe Burrow to compare him to late career Peyton Manning. So that's so funny that you say that because I think there is a lot of that in his game. And what I've loved about watching them this season, and even we're watching them over the last two years, right? So early on, they're trying to do this weird combination of empty LSU Joe Burrow and Zach Taylor's background from the Rams where it's under center and they're running

a lot of zone. It's a mess, right? Like, they could not merge the worlds together and they really struggle to do it. They still went to the Super Bowl, but it was very disjointed. Second year, they'd completely scrap it, right? We're going shotgun every play all the time. shotgun-based run game. We're throwing the zone plays out the window. Our offensive line does this better. And they found what worked for them. But it was still very static in the same way that Peyton Manning liked it. I want to see it. I want to be able to see the defense and make my decisions. Okay. Well, defenses started reacting to that. And they're going to be able to find solutions. And if you watch the Ravens play them, they're sending all these simulated pressures at him. And the picture is changing so much that that static element to the offense becomes a negative, not a positive. All right. Now we're in version three, where you still have some of the spread out elements that allow him to see the game that he wants to, but you're seeing a ton more motion. You're seeing more play action than you've ever seen within their offense. And you're seeing Jamar Chase line up everywhere. So them trying to problem solve this thing at every single stage and trying to stay one step ahead has been so cool to watch.

And I think so far they've been able to pull it off every step of the way over the last two years. Well, I think the last three weeks or four weeks of that offense is, really the last three weeks of that offense is exactly to your point. Like the first four or five games of the season, maybe six, four or five games of the season, Joe was in shotgun exclusively. And I didn't believe it. I didn't, I didn't believe it. And like, because I was doing a hit for NFL Network and we were talking about bro. And I went back and watched the game and I'm like, holy cow, the dude is in shotgun. every single snap. And it doesn't lend itself well for any play action. It's very staticy. And that was just because of his calf. And then he gets under center of the last three games. And you could tell,

like, the office coordinator for the Bengals was super excited because he had this quote. He was like, well, we got Joe under center now. So we're good. And it's literally completely transformed their entire offense just by the fact of getting him under center. And so now, now they're rolling. And now they're quite honestly not the scariest team in the AFC but but up there. So I was going to ask you this. We're at the halfway point. We're a month removed from them just being buried by pretty much every single person with a microphone. Understandably so.

How many teams do you definitively feel better about on November 8th than you feel about the Cincinnati Bengals? One, Baltimore Ravens. And maybe maybe the Chiefs. I'm worried about Chiefs' offense. but their defense is insane. I would say the Ravens in the AFC. I would say the Ravens for me. And then, yeah, it's either Sinci or, yeah, that's a, that's a, it's probably one other team.

Like, I'm not, like, I love, I love the way that the Bengals are headed. And not only because of the offense, but that defense is low key, really, really good, too. So they're putting it together at the right time. And if they can stay healthy, dude, they got a shot to be back in the same. the Super Bowl. Like, they just be honest with you. Like, they really, really do. I feel the, I think that Baltimore is the best team in the league.

I truly believe that. With the way they're playing on offense, the way they're playing on defense, they could just beat you in so many different ways. Like, I believe what the numbers are telling me. I believe, I just think that when you beat the shit out of good teams, you're really good. And that's what the Ravens have done so far this year. So I think that they're definitively the best team.

I would still give the nod to Kansas City because I have faith in the offense. figuring it out over the course of the year, and the defense is playing in an elite level. After that, Philly is pretty good, but I think I might feel better about the Bengals right now than I do about the Eagles. It's crazy as that is with the Eagles being 8 and 1, it's probably close. But the fact that they're even in that tier right now after what it felt like after that Tennessee game is wild. But that's where we are right now. And it just shows you how central he is to everything that they are. And I believe this.

I think, and this isn't a knock on him, I think injuries affect him in a different, more pronounced way than they affect some other guys. And some of that I think is mental. Like if you think, you go back to the, when he had the ACL and he came back from it, he was very open about how much time it took for him to regain trust in his body. And I just think that there's something he has to get over, all players are like this, but he has to get over that hurdle. And when he's not over it,

you can sense a huge difference in him. By the way, he's over it. He has cleared the hurdle. He is all the way back. And the league and just watching it week to week is so much better when he's playing at this level. Couldn't agree more. Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

And especially, you're right, it does, the more I think about it, it does affect him a little bit more injury-wise and everyone's different. But, I mean, yeah, they're back now, though. They are back in a big. big way. Last thing we wanted to hit on this week, one of the biggest bits of news from the last

week or so, Josh McDaniels getting fired by the Raiders and then everything that happened in the 72 hours after that, all the leaked stories that happened, every single bit about what that meeting was like, the cigars in the locker room afterwards. It was amazing. So what I wanted to ask you, you're in a unique position to be able to talk about this. It happened once in your career. You've mostly played for very good Hall of Fame head coaches. But in the instance where you didn't, in Detroit in 2020,

Matt Patricia gets fired around Thanksgiving. I think it was probably right after the Thanksgiving game. No, I think it was, was it that late in the season? I think it was. I won in Atlanta because I knew that he would get fired. I mean, it was talked about in the building. If we didn't win in Atlanta on that crazy comeback win,

that he had been fired. But yeah, it might have been around November. That makes sense. Yeah, it was November 20. So November 28th. So November 28th, you guys lost to the Texans. You guys lost to the Texans on Thanksgiving, 41 to 25. The Texans at that point, when you guys played them on Halloween, were one in seven.

The Houston Texans were one and seven. They put up 41 points against the Lions on Thanksgiving. That was Thanksgiving Day. That was Thanksgiving Day. So in front of everybody. That was the nail in the call. That was a final straw. So two days later, which would have been Saturday, the firing is announced.

So you guys probably come back to work on Monday, would be my guess, after the Thursday game. What is it like walking back into the building on the first day after your coach gets fired? Well, in that situation, a little bit of relief, right? I mean, in both guys were Patriot Ways guys, right? Like that's unique in its own self and a different day conversation. But I think that Matt Patricia was like I loved having one-on-one conversations with him. Like he was a guy's guy. He was a player's guy. And then there's just something that was a little bit different about him when he got in team atmospheres.

And he would just, I think he, I think his downfall at the end of the day was trying to be too much of someone he wasn't. if that makes sense. Like he... I think that's the case with a lot of those guys, right? I don't want to paint it with a broad brush, but that seems to be

a consistent issue for the Patriots guys. And guys didn't hate them by any means. He definitely rubbed people the wrong way, but it was just time for a change. And then when he got fired,

not because he got fired, but because of who took over for him, Darryl Bevel, it was like a breath of fresh air in terms of like, okay, like we know this season sort of lost.

on us a little bit. However, we get a chance to have a little bit more fun. We get a chance to have, and I don't know, and maybe it just lends its way to the Patriots way guys where they're very serious and they want everyone to sort of be walking on eggshells because that's sort of how it felt. And that's never, ever worked at anywhere I've been at. The places I've been at that have had the best time have had the best records, if that makes sense. You have fun. You go out there, be yourself. You get yourself, you get yourself ready to play. Because if you're not, then guess what? You're not going to play. I'm not going to threaten you to be. Like, you just won't, if you don't do it, you won't play. Like, if you don't go out there and actually

put the product on the field, you just won't play. Like, that's how it is anywhere. Like, guys know that. But when you try to contain is a good word, um, grown men, right? It, it, it tends to not be good. Because, Because like you're dealing with 30 year old men, like with families. You can't try to like, when I say control, like just let them be themselves. Give me an example. How would that kind of, how would that suppression manifest? Yeah, I would say suppress.

It's just like if anyone gets like, you know, caught having a good time or like in the locker room like, oh, you need to focus in or like, you know, it's just like the whole, it's not just like the players. It's like suppressing the coaches and sometimes the front office. office and sometimes everything else. And it's just there's certain fits as you well know that just they don't fit. Like you just tell like a certain amount. And that's what ended up with Mark Davis was like he could just tell like this is this is not working. Like make the mistake, move on, even though it's going to cost me 85 million for my last two head coaches and my GM, which is wild.

But then you bring in AP and Antonio Pierce who was a player who has lived it who his whole his whole mention and his whole speech in the locker room was like, man, I've been in your shoes. Have fun. Get your job done. But like, if we can't have fun, like, it's serious enough. This game is scrutinized enough. There's a ton of people on the outside. Like, you just got to go out there and have fun. Sure enough, cigars, music, Devante Adams, jamming in the back of that video, like all that stuff. It just makes a huge difference when at the end of the day, you just are allowed to have fun, if that makes sense. It's hard. It's really hard to explain. the dynamics because if you're not in the actual locker room, it's just a feel thing, if that makes sense. It makes total sense. They're human beings. You want to enjoy going to work. There's nothing that complicated about that.

So what I wanted to ask you, you came into the league in 2010. Okay. So this is right on the heels and deep in that stretch where the Patriots are just dominating everything, right? And so that's kind of the model is that the Patriots are the class of the NFL. And I think that these sort of Belichickian clones that tried to come in and run teams this way were much more consistent. It was much more regular feature of the league. Over the last 15 years, 13 years, whatever, from the outside looking in and from a lot of conversations with coaches, things have changed.

There is a different expectation among players about what the dynamics between players and coaches should look like, what communication looks like, what expectations looks like, what expectations. look like where ideas can come from, how collaborative it feels. How real is that? How different is the player coach dynamic in 2023 from what was maybe acceptable or the standard in 2011? Yeah, I think it's changed a lot. I think it's changed because really youth as a whole has changed on how they've been raised. You're in the social media error. You're in this like everything is posted. you better watch your back era. You better like, so everything's out there. This news cycle is continuous.

It doesn't stop. Back in the day, before Twitter, before anything of that, you had to go home, turn on ESPN, turn on SportsCenter and be like, okay, really get into the highlights. And the highlight packages were like five minutes long because everyone wants to see. Now they're like 30 seconds because everyone knows. And so I think the news cycle helped change it. But I also think the people that were young then and growing up. up that we're playing in the NFL, they have a different, it's so hard to put your, your, your finger on, but they have a different feel for how life in sports should be. And quite honestly,

like a lot of kids, whether it's their own doing or not, there's a problem with entitlement in youth of today, especially now with NIL and college sports. Before an A.L. in college sports, it was a like, okay, cool. Like, I want to be part of the team. I want to do what's best for the team. And I think there's a definite change to be like, no, it's me, me, me, me, me, me. What can I do for me? How can I post a social media clip? How can I do something for Instagram or for Twitter? And it's really just changed the dynamic from a team aspect to more of a me aspect. And I think coaches are starting to understand, hey, this old school way of thinking and sort of being a disciplinarian type coach is not working because these guys that are coming into the league that are younger don't really

respond well to that. It's a very dynamic and interesting conversation, but I hope that makes sense for people out there listening. I think that there have been a lot of obvious ways where Sean McVe's influence in the league is apparent, right? I mean, it's his assistant. His assistant, get hired, the types of offense that teams run. I think a lot of people have sought out their version of McVeigh when they've been looking for head coaches. And I think an unintended consequence of that is that we now have a very young generation of head coaches that are in charge of these teams.

Think about what a head coach felt like in, I don't know, 2005. Like if I think of an NFL head coach in 2005, like the first person who comes to mind for me outside of like the stars is like John Fox. Right. So you got like, and, and, you know, John is great personality. He's like a classic NFL character. But you think of him in his late 50s and 60s. He's kind of this like old kind of crotchety. Like there's a certain feel to what coaches were. Now, just think about NFL coaches right now. And think about how many of them were hired in their 30s. Arthur Smith, Zach Taylor, Kevin Stefansky, Matt Lefleur, Shane Steichen, Brandon Staley, Sean McVeigh, Sean McVeigh, Mike McDaniel, Kevin O'Connell, Nick Siriani, all these guys who just, it's just a different era and a different generation that is now in charge. And I think that those guys setting the agendas and the feel of these buildings, you can feel it. You can feel the shift that's happened. And I think that when you have that as kind of a, not only a dominant thing in terms of the percentage of coaches that are in that sort of role, but that it's working, it's so easy then to.

contrast that with this like old school hard ass we're going to make this like a miserable experience for you every single day and i think players are probably fed up with that shit to be honest with you yeah and honestly i mean he's a really amazing coach but when you said that i just tom coflin like yes even better example like just this is the way it's done we're not changing it and this is how we're going to do it i don't care if we're two and ten or 12 and two i like And I do think people and really the players had been fed up with it, but where I think it's reaching is to the owners and to the front office people hiring these coaches. That's exactly. They're seeing the change.

They're the ones that are having to hire it. So the players, you might feel fed up with it. And finally, you can't do anything about it if you're a player because there's a hierarchy to it. And you're not the one hiring. And so I think that's really where the dynamic shifted was when ownership and front office people, including GMs, started to understand the change in dynamic. And I think another good example of this year, Tamika Ryads. Tomiko Ryads is 39 years old.

He was just a player. So I do think that there's something to that. And I think that there have been mistakes made as teams have sought out that archetype of coach. But I think that the feel in the locker room and what it's like for guys going to work every day and the benefits that can come with that, I do think that is a downstream effect of guys looking for this offensive Wunderkin kind of model that shot.

McVeigh created. Yeah, totally agree. That's a great one. I love D'Amico too, man. D'emico is, and that's the thing, like, that's what you look from there. The vibes are immaculate. They are immaculate. And they're playing, I mean, they got, they got it right with C.J.

That's for sure. It's so funny how, and this is why this is, we don't, no need to go too far down this road. But when people think about these franchises and like, ah, so and so is a poverty franchise, they're never going to be successful. Da, da, da, da, da, da. You know how fast that shit can change. You know how many people it takes to change it?

Sometimes it's one. In Cincinnati's case, it was one guy, and then they obviously had the right head coach and Zach Taylor, but it takes two guys. So this understanding of NFL franchises are monoliths, they never change, they're set in stone. I understand that it's difficult with bad ownership to overcome that consistently. But it doesn't take a lot. You get the right coach and the right quarterback, and it can happen in a big, big hurry. So the Texans to me are the best example of that.

There was not a single thing about the Houston Texans over the last two years that said to me, pay attention to us. Pay attention to us. We are worth taking seriously. I couldn't feel more different about them now. I am so pumped to watch the Texans play the Bengals on Sunday. And that's how fast it happened. It happened in six months. So it's worth kind of keeping that in mind as you're thinking about what their trajectory of these teams can look like.

Chase Daniel, always good to chat with you, my friend. friend. Great show. Really enjoyed it. Everyone, thank you very much for listening. We will be back next week. Same time, same place. Until then, please check out the other stuff that we have on the Athletic Football Show Network. I did Keefer of the Beats this week with Zach traveling back from Germany. Really enjoyed chatting with a couple of our beatwriters. Great conversation with Alex Lewis about all things Josh Dobbs from Sunday, chatting with Dan Duggan about what's happening with the Giants, which was not as fun of a conversation. And then chat with band Standig about What is Washington doing?

Where do they go from here after all those trades last week? So encourage you guys to check that out. Please come back and check out our week 10 preview that I'll be doing with Nate here. In the next couple of days, we'll be running on Friday. Until then, really appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.