The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Inside Monday Night Football with Louis Riddick + breaking down the WFT’s defensive line and Steelers’ offense with Mitchell Schwartz

Episode Date: September 22, 2021

ESPN analyst Louis Riddick joins Robert Mays to discuss what goes into the Monday Night Football broadcast. Louis also gives his assessment of the Packers and he explains why he’s expecting a big year from Derek Carr and the Raiders. Then, Mitchell Schwartz and Robert talk about their takeaways from Chiefs-Ravens before breaking down their early observations of Washington’s defensive line and the Steelers’ offense.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. The presenting sponsor for today's episode of the Athletic Football Show is Visa, a network working for everyone. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. Mitchell Schwartz is going to be joining us a little bit later, like he's doing every single Wednesday. I hope you guys are excited for that. I know that I am.

Before we get to that, though, I am thrilled to welcome. Co-host VSPN's Monday Night Football, somebody we love having on this show. Lewis, Riddick, Lewis, how you doing? You're doing good, man. I'm doing good. Thanks for having me back. We've always had some great combos here. I sincerely appreciate the time. I know you're extremely busy. We're a night after your night in Green Bay doing Packers Lions. We're going to get into that. I wanted to ask you, though, before we start actually talking about the game, which I really do want to dig into, I'm curious what your guys' week is like on Monday night football. Because one of my

favorite things, one of the reasons I kind of want to be a fly on the wall for a TV production is the meetings and the conversations because you guys get to have some pretty deep football conversations with the coaching staffs and the players that you work with. So just lay it out for me. Like when you're, let's say for this week, like what was the structure of your guys's week to prepare? Who do you talk to? I'm just curious about the nuts and bolts of what it's like to do those games.

Yeah. Well, you know what? If I just took you through a week, like, let's just say when we get back from a game. So today, today's kind of like a. you know, it's a travel day. If you're on the West Coast, you take a red eye. If you're not, you're getting back, you know, sometime around noon. It's kind of one of those days to just kind of recalibrate.

And you really start already, Robert, shifting your mind to the very next week. Because you don't have much time. Okay, you really have to start dialing in on, okay, from a big picture what the next week is going to look like, who the teams are going to be, start maybe reading some articles about what happened to them previously. And just get your mind right, ready to go. Wednesdays, we kind of have a, from a boot. perspective between Steve Levy, Brian Greasy, myself, and then Phil Dean, the producer, and Jimmy Flatt, the director, us five get together and just discuss the previous week's game

and just, you know, have whatever we want to bring up that's positive, we're negative about what happened in that game from a production standpoint, from a play breakdown standpoint, from a play call standpoint, situations that came up, we just kind of go through amongst ourselves before we get with the big group on Thursday to kind of frame that coming week. to just make sure we put that week to bed. Thursday, we have another, then we have that big production meeting. Brian and I kind of lay out what we think this game is going to look like. Steve lays out what are important points that he wants to make during that week.

And we just kind of like set the tone for what the weekend is going to look like once we hit the road and travel on Friday. So really that day also, we give Phil the list of the coaches, which is what you're getting. that in the players that we think are important to talk to. And he sends that into that team's PR department. And then usually they say, yeah, your nay. Most teams are very, very good with, you know, giving us the players that we want because it's better for them.

They know the more we can highlight them, the better it is for them. And we know, you know, the more that we kind of paint their players in a favorable life, you know, it's just good for everybody all around. Totally. We travel on Fridays, usually now. we still do have to test once a week for COVID. So we have to do that on Wednesdays.

We get to town on Friday. Friday is usually just to chill, get acclimated, get into your room. Saturday is when it really ramps up. Go to practice that morning of the home team. And then usually have a production call with head coach, both coordinators, maybe two prominent, two to three prominent players on defense, two to three prominent players on offense. That is a lot of fun.

Let me say this. Last year, although we had to do them all on Zoom last year, this year we're getting to be around some of these teams personally, although just this past week at Green Bay, we had to do it on Zoom because some teams are tightening up their protocols a little bit. But last year on Zoom, I would say our meeting with Kyle Shanahan before we did the 49ers Bill's game down in Arizona because they had to move from Santa Clara. What was happening was some of the best football conversation I've ever had in my life,

quite honestly. From team building, coach player relationships, X's and O's, the opponent. own it. What he learned from his father? What he feels about specifically that running backs need to have and why he's able to identify him maybe and have luck with them that other teams can't. It was freaking incredible. Incredible. I mean, there was probably, like, we have assistants who dictate the entire production call with everybody we talked to. And his was, I would say, on a regular piece of notebook paper, it was probably four or five pages worth of transcript. It was incredible. That's amazing.

Really, I mean, the better relationship that you have with these guys may be from, like, for me, whether there are people that I played for or there's a lot of coaches who I played against, which goes to show you how old my ass is getting and how old somebody. But it's wild, man, because the league is such a small league. It really is. in the grand scheme of things. And you realize that everybody's interconnected somehow. And you have some great conversations. Bill Belichick last year was a great conversation where he's one of those guys where

you ask him the right thing. He will go on and on and he will kind of like open up the notebook for you in a way that has you sitting there in all. Sean McVeigh is a great interview. Is there an assistant or a coordinator that kind of snuck up on you that you just weren't ready for when you guys had that conversation? Absolutely. But you know what?

See, speaking of Sean McPacee, see, he kind of tipped me off to this, but he had told me in January, last year, I believe it was it was early last year when he had hired Brandon Staley. He said, when you meet him, you're going to be blown away by this dude. He goes, I know how you like to think about how you think about defense. You kind of think about defense the same way quarterback coaches and coordinators think about offense from a very cerebral perspective. He said, this guy is that, because he used to be a quarterback. So he kind of approaches defense the same way.

When we talk to him out in L.A., right then, I think I put on Twitter right then, I said, just watch out. This guy's going to be a head coach. He's going to be a head coach. And Sean was like, dude, don't say that. Don't say that. He's losing too many guys. You know what?

And he said, right away, he goes, in all seriousness, you think he could, you think he'll get some traction and you'll get some looks? Like, if you guys win, hell yeah. He's just going to interview off the charts. Yeah, that's the thing. Just like that. Yeah, there's some guys that you know. I mean, I've told the story on the podcast recently,

but Joe Barry, who you probably talked to you last week. When I was talking to Joe, he said that there were three coaches that he knew within the first day or two of meeting them that they were going to be head coaches. And the three guys were Mike Tomlin, Sean McVeigh, and Brandon Staley. Those were the three guys that, like, as soon as he was in the room. And it makes sense.

When you talk to all three of those guys, it's readily apparent that they just have, I don't know, beyond just the intellect, but the way they communicate, the way they present it, like there's just something to them. And it's interesting because you get sort of a close-up look

at a lot of these guys, maybe before their head coaches, when they are in that coordinator spot. And it's just, it's an interesting vantage point. I would love to just sneak into your luggage at some point and just get into some of those rooms when you're having those conversations.

Let me tell you, too, It's funny, you bring up Mike. Mike is, Mike's awesome. Some coaches are very guarded, and I get it. And, you know, it's a, it's a very competitive league teams don't want to, they don't know exactly how you're going to frame stuff when you're on TV, especially if they don't have a great relationship with you. So they're guarded with what they say. Some guys who are just naturally, though, much more open about the game itself, because they believe, look, you're not making any blocks, you're not tackling anybody. So no matter what you say, it doesn't really affect the game anyway. they'll be much more forthcoming. Mike is one of those guys, man. When Tomlin gets on there and he starts talking, he kind of just, you just kind of sit back and go, go. You go through his entire roster and give you some real good nuggets about each guy.

And you're right. You know, Mike's got that real booming voice. Yeah. On a Zoom now, he'll stare right into the Zoom. I'm like, you feel like in front of me, you know? So he's just cool. And I think one of the other ones who's the best, we had to cut Sean Payton off this year

when we did their preseason game down near New Orleans from the Daxville game we were over there in Metery in their complex we had to stop him from talking and remind him that he had practice because he was going and going and going and going

and he was having a good time he was telling him he's one of the most engaging people that there is and he's such a I think as weird as this sounds man and this might be hard believe, but I think Sean is one of the most underrated head coaches and or play callers ever. The guy's got, he's got it all in his toolkit as far as communication skills,

teaching skills, and then real time processing of information in order to make the right call for his players on game day. You know, it's, it's really, it really is incredible. I admire a crap at him as far as, you know, what he's been able to accomplish and really what he is still accomplishing despite what happened this past weekend because everybody gives all the credit to Drew and I get it Drew's a great player and they were together what 15 years down there in New Orleans Sean Peyton has got Sean Payton's a hall of favor no question I totally agree I mean on this show I think we sing his praises in every single turn just because one of my favorite things I talk about this a lot one of my favorite things to ask coaches is would you watch this offseason

who did you go back and watch what were the things that you study that you thought were interesting. And it's almost just a given that offensive coaches in the league go watch everything that the Saints did. Like it's almost understood just league-wide. It's like, oh, well, I watch the saints, obviously. Like, the tone that they use when they say that to me is just so, so telling. And it says so much about just the respect that he's garnered. Last week, did you, did you talk to Nate Hackett as part of those meetings? No, we didn't. For the all kinds of the ball, we just talked with Matt the floor because, you know, when the head coach is a primary play call, then we'll just talk with him. Like the same thing what we do in Vegas with John. Instead of talking to Greg Olson,

also, we'll just talk to John Gruden. And like in Casey, we talk to Andy. We don't talk to, although that's not true. Andy made Eric Vietamie available, which was cool too. And I think unnecessary. So, I mean, but yeah. I mean, Matt's a good good. of you too and so was Aaron, Aaron Rogers for that matter. You know, he's you know what I mean, you could do this whole show just on this topic. Because I could

sit here and tell you story after story. This is one of my favorite parts of Money Night Football are the production movie. That's why I would love to do it. I would never even I'd be the worst announcer in history but I would love the production meetings. One of the things I had to do last year was actually

learn how to cut down on the number of questions I was asking. How do you do that? How do you like whittle the questions in the list that you want to have? It's impossible, honestly. I'm like, I'm like, I have this, this, this, this, this, this, this. But if I would go first, then I realized that, you know,

sometimes, you know, Brian would be sitting there going, like, well, scratch that one off, scratch that one off, so. Well, I don't know what I mean? Because otherwise, I mean, you know, you generally think about football. the same way. And you have to kind of like leave enough to go around because he wants to ask Steve wants to ask Lisa Salters may have a question with two. Susie Calder's on those calls sometimes. But I would just be so into it. Next thing you know, I mean, we'd be 45 minutes into it and I had no one else to talk. So, and that's because I just love that part of it, man. I love asking

guys about players, scheme, motivation tactics, personal relationships off the field. I mean, because you're always learning, Robert. know how this game, this game just keeps on giving to you in terms of the information you can acquire because there's, it's always moving, evolving, adapting, which is something that you specialize in tracking how that, how that works. You've done almost 20 games now. I want to talk about the Packer game, but there's no reason to cut this conversation off. You've done like 20 games now.

What would you say is the conversation that has made you rethink something about the sport, whether it's team building or the way that a building should work, something that like when you came away from it, just stuck in your brain for longer than you've expected it to. And it really shifted your perspective. Hmm. You know what? I think it really wasn't an X and O conversation.

I think it was a, it was the relationship aspect of how, coaches and their willingness to really sit and listen to players on a basic human level can really positively impact the performance of players, especially when the season gets its toughest late in November and December. And that's something that Kyle, again, that conversation that we had with him, that's what stuck with me. I kind of walked out of that meeting going, see, I didn't expect him to necessarily be that way.

I didn't know if he was, I didn't know he was really that personally. I don't want to say invested because that sounds like all coaches or like I'm assuming all coaches are robots and I know they're not. But I just didn't know he was that invested in the personal aspect of his players to that degree. And I can see why now maybe his teams, despite the fact that they haven't gotten to the mountaintop yet, why his teams are going to be right there and why they always are right there, provided that they stay healthy. And he has a great grasp of that. That team was put through a lot a year ago

with having to relocate and go down there to Arizona and move away from their families, around the holidays and all. And I think it reinforced to me something that I've always loved about team building and about program building, and that is the relationship aspect, because that's something that Andy always,

Andy Reid always emphasized me to talk about when he was in Philly. and I'll never ever question how important that aspect of the game is ever, if I ever did in the first place, which I don't believe I ever did. But I know now I am dead set on the fact that the days of you trying to kind of set up tiers within an organization where, you know, managers manage, coaches, coach, players play, and you don't really meet in scout scout and you don't really mix to two because i've been around places where people think that kind of crap and they think it needs to be segmented and differentiated like that

i'll never ever ever buy into that kind of thing and i will always be someone who in the event that i ever went back to the NFL i will work overtime to make sure that that part of it is something even though in in this environment where we know the NFL is a brutal business i will make sure that in the time where, you know, the people are who they are in terms of on the football team and in the front office and in the organization, they all feel like they are a part of a family and not just in words, Robert, but in action and making sure that you take really calculated and intentional steps to make sure they feel that way. Because it does matter and it can translate to a competitive edge in the moments when it's the hardest, which is the last thing Kyle said. He said, just remember this, man. Just remember this. Remember how hard it is to play football.

Yeah. How hard it is to play football in the NFL. And how hard it is to play football in the NFL at the highest level, which is what we're all paid to do. By November. Especially when it's starting to grind you down. That's right. Exactly it.

And you need those relationships. You're going to need them at that point in time because it's amazing what a guy will do for you on third and two. if he feels like he cares about you, even though he's not sitting out there going, yeah, Kyle loves me, so I'm going to run a little harder on this play. But you know what I'm saying. There's just that there's just never, there's just that inbreakable or unbreakable trust that exists between you and a player or, you know, or you and another coach that you just, it's an intangible thing you can't put your finger on and can't really measure,

but it's real. And I believe that 100%. Well, sticking in that vein, you were in Green Bay last week, they had a pretty good get bright game last night what was the vibe there when you were talking about how week one unfolded what their expectations were and just the end result last night is that kind of what you expected after talking to them last week about what their offense should look like moving forward yeah working backwards they're starting with their offense i never expected their offense to kind of put a string of performances together like the one that happened week one they're just

too good. And there have guys who have performed, look, Devonte Adams is, you know, depending upon who you asked, the best or one of the top three wide receivers in the NFL. You know he wasn't, he's not going to be held down. I don't care how many two high schemes you run against him, how many bracket schemes, how many high low schemes, he's going to find a way. He found a way last night. I mean, Aaron's Aaron. We know that. We don't need to sit there and run through what his qualifications are. And he told you, look, we've been performing at a very high level here for a long time. Sometimes as humans, we just aren't on top of our game. They knew it as soon as like in pregame, they said, and early in that football game, something's off.

Yeah. Sometimes you're in situations like that if you play sports or whatever it is, man, you have a bad day and you can't shake yourself out of it. And when someone asks you, well, just tell me the one thing that it was, you don't know. And they didn't know really what it was. They really, they tried to analyze it. I mean, Matt on the floor talked about the fact that, you know, should I have played the starters more in the preseason? Did I not practice them hard enough? Did I practice them too hard? You know, did we not do the right things in the off season? Was our focus on the wrong things coming into the season? You know, what was it? The best thing they could do, but really what they came down to was this. All right, let's just rewind. Let's just take it

one play at a time, one drive at a time, one quarter of a time. And that's what they did, because the game started all slow for them. And believe me, up in the booth, we were sitting there going, could this be an upstead? But offensively, they were just kind of poking and prodding and trying to figure out what it was that Aaron Glenn was trying to do to him. They figured it out. They kept running the football. Aaron started dropping a safety down saying, well, we can't let them gashes too much. And it seems like every time they got themselves in some kind of form or fashion of man coverage or single high, boom, they'd hit the Vante.

There he goes, down the slalom. And they were dialed and you could just see Aaron going, I got you now. Now I figured you out. Then they went back to Too High. And he goes, well, we got to answer for that too. We're just going to run Robert Tunyon down the scene against Alex Anzolone. That's how you beat Cover 2 or 2 man or any version of that. They were just locked in.

So you knew it would they be cool that way. The defense, I think, is still a question. I still do think of the question. We'll see what happens on that side. Obviously, you know, that's a huge change for a team that went to two straight NFC championship games. They switch out their defensive coordinator. Joe Barry is there now.

It has not looked good. They have a 7.9% pressure rate over their first two weeks, which is absolutely brutal. I know Zadariah Smith is out, but they still have some, they have resources in the front. With Preston Smith, Sean Gary, I mean, they have resources in the front.

That has not looked very good. I'm just curious on a more general level. When you're watching a team running a new defensive scheme, what are the first couple things you look for to identify whether it's clicking or? not. Well, really, it's, it's kind of like, well, communication first and foremost. Yeah. Um, and that kind of goes, you know, you've heard the old axiom like defensive play is about alignment, assignment, assignment and technique, right? Alignment assignment, technique execution, I guess you could say.

Well, alignment and assignment, it kind of goes together, because obviously if you're in the wrong alignment, you're not going to execute the right assignment. But the way you know whether or not a team is kind of locked in and on the same page is by body language. communication, how late they are to getting lined up, how quickly they adjust to motions and shifts. Because one of the things on defense, the easiest thing to do is for a team to come out and line up in a static formation and not move anywhere. It's easy to communicate that out and figure it out. What always jams people up on defense, whether it be a young player or a new scheme, new coaches, is whenever people start moving or they start going fast. Do you see people lining up late?

Do you see guys looking at, you know the body language, like, you know, doing that? they were doing that last night early in the game. And I was like, they don't have it figured out yet. They just don't. So the first time that they ran that little smash corner concept that Quintess Cotts Cotts caught the touchdown on. Which is all communication, right? Exactly.

I saw Kevin King. I think it was King and Stokes that were together on that one. Yeah, because it was like on the Packers sideline from the booth, it was going right to left. I saw them pre-snap looking at each other. And then you saw a little smash come from the outside and then Seepis ran the little corner around. And they both jumped on the smash. And then as soon as it happened, you could tell by their body language, they looked at each other.

I'm like, see, these are the kind of things. Like, that's so basic. But like, what is it that isn't translating from the meeting room to the practice field to the game in that scheme, in this new scheme, that isn't allowing them to do something? than that basic, like in their sleep. That's something that should be very easy. And until they can get that done, you don't even, I mean, there's no way you can really assess just how good this scheme is if you can't even communicate in the first place and get lined up properly.

So they got some things ironed out as the game went on. But as you talked about and alluded to right away here, when they're rushing four and it's just, you know, four trying to beat five, you know, the four down rushers trying to beat the five. lockers, their one-on-ones aren't winning. Roshan Gary's just not winning. He's just not Preston Smith. There's a reason why he got benched.

Because the first year he was up there with Cedarius, he was very productive, then he wasn't. Rishon never was really productive in college, despite being the number one ranked high school recruit coming out and state of New Jersey here. And up there, if you see Rishon Gary in person, I don't know if you ever have. I have. I've been in that locker room plenty, yeah. He's a big man. He's a parent.

This is what I want right here. It's perfect. It reminds me of how I felt when I saw the first time I looked at Julius Pepper's in person. I was like, there's no freaking way that that guy, like, I remember looking at the field and I was like, my God, Mishon Gary should be killing people. Just coming out there and just running him over. And he's not getting anywhere close. He's one up against a tackle last night.

and Matt Nelson who has three career starts and right tackle was a former college de lineman. So there's a lot of things, man, going on right there. They got to get figured out and ironed out. The offense is going to have to carry them for a little bit, I think. So I want to talk about just new defenses in general. And you said this recently,

and I think it's such an interesting point, just how in demand and how valuable the right defensive teachers are going to be. Like in a league where points are just, it's astronomical, the offensive production that we're seeing. Really great defensive coordinators and really great defensive teachers are going to be so important and so valuable. What do you think is the hallmark of a really good defensive teacher?

Because when I was in the Chargers, when I was talking to those guys this summer, we were talking about some of the, just the stealing that would happen, right? Like Joe Barry is from the Rams. There's a reason that he's with Green Bay right now. It's because of what that defense did. But if you're taking these zero,

Xeroxes of all of this. It's like, I'm going to Xerox this defense and try to replicate it. It doesn't always work. You can't teach it the same way necessarily. So I'm curious. What do you think are the markers of a really good defensive teacher when it comes to some of these principles and concepts? I think two things.

It's two things. There's two things you better know how to do now in the NFL or else you're really, quite honestly, you're dead, right? you better know how to attack protections, number one. Truly know how to attack them. Not just, well, I'm just going to send five and send them all any old haphazardly way, but scheme it up so you are getting free runners

and or if you're rushing, or you're getting free runners and or you're getting the guy who you want, single it up one on one. Or you're wasting guys. I think a lot of defensive coordinators are doing a really good job of wasting offensive linemen. with the ways that they're just showing pre-snap. Like what the Panthers are doing right now, several other teams.

But I think, I totally agree. Yeah, so that is what Brandon did a very good job with Aaron in particular, moving him around to where he could get him one-on-ones. Get him one-on-ones. Because you know one-on-one, as Aaron has supposedly told many the offensive linemen over the course of games over the past couple of years, you have no shot against me one-on-one. Like he's telling other players that.

You're right. We don't. So that's number one. Number two, in the back end, you better have guys who understand the passing game as far as concepts that teams are running against single high and two high. And how you can minimize the weaknesses that are inherent in those schemes. to the point where, like, what happened last night, okay? So when you're in too high, okay, there's certain holes in it, right?

There are holes in the middle of the field down the, you know, in the middle of the field, and then in the holes, 18 yards down the field outside the numbers, where a safety is going to have a tough time getting to if you're playing standard coverage. So knowing that, how do you minimize those things and give your players tools to help you be able to play more efficiently when guys like Aaron Rogers identifies what you're in. He knows what the weaknesses are. You know he's going to go after him. How can you help yourself survive?

So I think one, can you attack protections? Two, can you teach guys the techniques to help them survive the weaknesses that are inherent in the basic coverage schemes that you're running in the NFL? And that's where I think we really see a glaring difference in competency from one coach to the next. Teaching fundamental techniques of how to slow down high-powered passing attacks. All right. There's so many coaches who want to run lots of fancy fire zones, blitz packages, zero blitz schemes, and show how smart they are in terms of the amount of volume that they have in there.

But there's a couple of fundamentals that right now, like there's two fundamentals that drive me up a freaking wall. One, the whole concept of getting up on the line. on a scrimmage and pressing but not pressing. You make it look like you're Lester Hayes, but when the ball snapped, you basically say, here, go ahead, just go run, and then I'm just going to play basketball with you because I'm a pretty good athlete too, and I'll just be able to mirror your routes down the field. Bullshit, no, you're not. You're not going to do that to Tyreek Hill.

You're not going to do that to Devonte Adams. You're not going to do that to Mike Evans, Keenan Allen. They're going to eat your lunch, and that's why these guys' numbers are skyrocketing. Because I don't think coaches, minus a few, are emphasized. the value of disruption within the five-yard zone and how it can totally screw up a quarterback in the timing mechanism of an offense. I know one guy who absolutely will sit you down

if you don't do it, and he's up there in Foxborough, because he was teaching us that back in Cleveland back in the 90s, and they still do it. There's still the team that will go out there and say, guess what we're going to do? We're going to single high you to death. And we'll just line up in it if we want, because you know why?

because our guys are going to absolutely try to mall you at the line of scrimmage. And then we're going to attack your protections to the point where I'm going to get one of these guys free or one of these guys one-on-one on your weakest pass rusher. And even though he may not like Kyle Van Nuoy or even Josh Uchi or whoever it is may not be the greatest athlete, he may not be Lawrence Taylor, I'm just out thinking you and I'm out-fundimentaling you to where we wind up having a top five defense every year. So I think that's really what it is, Robert. Can you attack protections and can you teach guys in the back seven how to survive against all these different aerial attacks? Or they're not different. The spread aerial attacks where they're spreading the field and really trying to get you on one-on-ones, can you teach these guys how to survive by one,

playing with great fundamentals at the line of scrimmage? And the second part of that would be playing the ball in the air. How many times do you hear, I talked about this last night on air, how many times you hear announcers say, well, he's got to turn around and look for the football. This is a basic fundamental thing. The whole concept of in phase versus out of phase when you're running down the field with the wide receiver.

Out of phase meaning this, you're trailing him, you're running, he's hauling, hauling ass, you're trying to catch up to him. Say you get close to him, but he's still got a half a yard of separation on you. The receiver catches the ball. He puts his hands up. You see the defensive back go to punch and strip the pocket. Sometimes he gets it. And people will go, that's a great play when he misses it.

He's got to turn his head around and find the ball. Okay? Well, it can't be both. Okay. You can't, you can't when he does good, say it's a great play when he doesn't say, well, he needed to turn around and look at the ball. But, you know, honestly, I'm wondering if those kind of things are really taught in the NFL and really taught the way Bill was teaching them.

Because there's going to be times where you're just going to have to make plays on the ball down the field because you didn't beat the protection because they did find the one-on-one matchup. Now do you have the fundamental skill set in order to get the ball out against these snipers that we have at quarterback that can put the ball in a one-foot-by-one-foot box like Aaron put on Devante Adams last night down the right side. About three plays before he did a tidying for the touchdown. And you know what? Here's the good thing about that, though. Melifan Wu, the rookie from Syracuse, he got hurt on that play. But Devante had him beat. He ran a kind of little semi out and up double move on him.

But he never looked back. He tried to sprint to the pocket, as they call it. He tried to punch the pocket. He missed the ball by about that much. Well, Devante had really laid hands on that too, right? Which makes it so difficult. If you're just going to sit there and just flash him at the last second, there's no way you can play that ball.

It was really good coverage. Exactly. You know what, though? That's why Aaron Glenn is going to be a superstar coordinator. Because he was a great corner himself. He understands the fundamentals of past defense and how to play it when you eventually at some point in time or one-on-one. And one of the first things he teaches up there, or rather he, I shouldn't say

one of the first things he wanted to learn as an up-and-coming coach was how to attack protections. when to send people and how to send them, not just let's just send them because in this book I saw it says send five or send six. That's why he's going to be great. And I think I don't know if every defensive coordinator in the NFL or even every defensive coordinator in college football, even at the Power Five school, some of the best Power Five schools, really understand that at the level that's necessary for you to play consistently good defense.

in this league. There's a reason why the numbers are going up. It's not just because the commissioner and the league are making the rules such that the offense just dominates. A lot of it goes, a lot of this is the responsibility, I think, of fundamental defensive play, not keeping pace with fundamental offensive play. I think a lot of it has to do with that. All right. The last thing I want to ask you about the game you did last week, the Raiders have had a pretty nice couple weeks. And you have obviously a deep history with John Gruden. I mean, he was in Oakland the year that you were there. I mean, you guys, obviously there's a connection there. I'm curious, just his, what he's doing right now, right? He got there in 1998. I mean,

it's, think about how long ago that was. Think about where he comes from, just that kind of true blue West Coast offense. What they're doing offensively right now is some of the most interesting stuff in the entire league. I'm just curious when you're talking to him, kind of picking his brain about the way he sees offensive football. What do you think has allowed him to just maintain this mindset and this ability to just keep drawing stuff up that is kind of on the forefront right now? I mean, it's stuff that is consistently putting his guys in positions to succeed. Yeah, I think one, John has always understood matchups.

And getting, when you're talking about putting players in positions to succeed, he does that with Darren Waller as well as any coach does with a weapon like that in the NFL. You will see Darren, you will see him constantly moving him around trying to gather intel as to how a team is going to play him in order to put him in the right position and trying to then forecast how in later situations down the road he's going to get the matchup that he wants. He's one of those guys who's great at collecting data as the game goes on. You saw him do it to Baltimore. I didn't get to see much of the Pittsburgh game because we were on the road.

But against Baltimore, he consistently was like trying to figure out how Coach Martindale was trying to defend him. And as the game goes on, he's very good at making adjustments, both in terms of formation variation, and then route combinations off of it. And that's when Darren started going crazy later on in that football game. He did the same thing with Renfro. later in the game he did the same thing with Brian Edwards. So I think he's good at seeing the game. There's coaches who can clinic the heck out of offense or out of defense

and talk about all the different answers that they have on a chalkboard or on a whiteboard, but in real time when it's happening. It's a much different environment. John is able to kind of decipher that with the help of his coaches up in the box and make adjustments in real time. And I think no matter how much other. other places try to copy what he's doing. And as we talked about earlier, when people try to copy defenses and kind of this, well,

I want to run their system. I want to do what Brandon Staley's doing. I want to do what Sean McFay is doing. There's something to doing that stuff in real time that really you just don't know if you're going to be able to make those decisions in real time. I think the other thing, really, that he still, he strongly believes in the run game. He strongly believes in the play action passing game. And I think that's something that, you know, the statistics bear it out, that that that is

something that is tried and true. And as a former defensive player, I can just tell you this. Teams should play action more than they're even doing now. Because as a defender, especially as a game goes on, look, man, defensive players can't help themselves. They can't help themselves, but looking at the quarterback. They can't help it. And for teams not to do it, you're foolish not to do it. And John believes in it. Lastly, I'll say this. This is what he's really got, this is the really the ace that he's really got in his pocket right now. Derek Carr sees the game just like he does. Derek Carr is on the same level cerebrally,

I believe, of the great quarterbacks that are in this league now and previously. John will give him four or five different plays he can go to up at the line of scrimmage. So whereas you think, damn, John dialed up the perfect play? No, John gave Derek the menu and said, pick one based off of what you see. and that's why I think and that's something you will hear me beat that drum all year this year

John's a good coach no doubt about it we all know that he's been a whiz for a long time he was Sean McVay before they were Sean McVey. Derek Carr is the guy right now and people don't want to believe it but this guy is given a ton of freedom a ton and he right now is hitting all the right notes man he really is and he can do it that quick he can do it that quick he's one of those guys who can come up to the line scrimmage and as you're sitting there trying to hold your water and disguise and not let him read your mail from a defensive perspective based on down the distance and situation he's the guy who's

looking at safeties and linebackers going hey aren't you supposed to walk down here aren't you supposed to be right you don't you don't have to disguise that I know what you're doing he's getting to that level now that neotype I'm in the matrix type level now and I think you're going to see this continue all year long that Vegas is going to be a team to be reckoned with. You think that there's just a different feel with them this year than there has been over the last couple of years? Yeah, for sure, for sure.

They did a nice job on the defensive side, for sure, of getting some real good players on the first and second level from a scheme familiarity standpoint. Look, Denzel Perryman and KJ. Wright are key, key additions to the, this defense, because this defense is simple in terms of the amount of volume it has, but as Gus will tell you, the devil's in the details with this defense, not in the volume, details of what we do and all the different little variations that we have within our quote, unquote, Seattle 3 that we run. And when you have players like that who can say, hey, look, when KJ says, you know, back in the days of the Legion of Boom, this is how me and Bobby

and Cam and Earl and Richard. This is how we played this route. This is how we played this run. This is how we played this play action. You know where the problems are. Exactly. They've done a very good job of bringing in veterans who can help the young guys. And honestly, as Gus told us, this defense was designed back in, you know, back in Seattle

to help young guys play quicker, get on the field quicker, reduce the clutter in their mind so then they can just let their athletic ability shine through. And that's why guys, like, you would hope a guy like John Abram will play better in this defense. They have a rookie free safety and Trayvon Merrick. You hope he's able to acclimate to it very quickly and get going and maybe be that Earl Thomas type. This should really help a guy like Trayvon Mullen. Hopefully Damon Arnett can get himself going to the point where he kind of justifies his draft status. Does that worry you at all that they're seeding opportunities to,

veterans and in marginalizing guys they drafted in the first that's my only the thing in the back of my mind is just like that's a dicey way to build a team and that's it because if you're not developing those guys your ceiling gets capped out pretty quickly yeah but i think you know it's it's early it's early in it's not early in their overall program build but it's early in this defense's build out in particular in guss's scheme so there's time i mean it's only two weeks in it's a long season, an even longer season now. So let's see what those guys do. I think on the defensive line, I think, look, you know,

we all know that that Cleveland Furrell, as good of a kid as he is, great of a guy as he is, he wasn't worthy of that dress. We know that. And I don't think that one's going to, I think that just is what it is. Good thing, though, is, you know,

Max Crosby's turned out to be a pretty damn good player, hasn't he? Yeah. He looks excellent, and in Gakway looks, really, really good. That's the upside there. They're going to be for real. They're going to be for real.

Awesome. Well, that's all I got for you. I sincerely appreciate the time. I really appreciate you doing this. I know you got a million things going on. So it means a lot that you would take it out. It's always great to chat with you. No problem, man.

No problem. Thanks a lot for having me. All right. It's time now for our weekly visit with all pro offensive linemen, former chiefs tackle, Mitchell Schwartz. Mitch, how are you? I'm doing good. How are you?

I'm doing just fine. We just had a nice chat with Lewis Riddick, and I am very excited about digging into this. So you had a few things that you wanted to talk about. We actually just talked a little bit about Derek Carr with Lewis, but you also wanted to point out some of the differences that you've seen in Derek Carr through the first couple weeks of the year. Obviously, you had an up close look at him for several years playing in the AFC West. What have you noticed that's different about the way he's playing quarterback right now than he might have in the past? The biggest difference to me is how he's responding to pressure and to getting hit. You know, I always felt like he was a guy that, I mean, most quarterbacks, if you can get to them,

if you can apply pressure, hit them, they're not super comfortable. But it did seem like he had a little bit of a tendency to shy away from the contact, you know, get rid of the ball really quick. You know, there's a vivid memory of in my mind of pressure coming and he's trying to, you know, throw it out of bounds or dirt it at the running back. And he kind of just throws a wayward interception for a pick six. like it's that kind of thing that you know I always had in the back of my head with him because if you take out you know kind of the plays under pressure I mean he looks like a top five quarterback at pretty much every step of the way he throws an incredible ball he's got velocity he's got touch he can do all the things physically it was just you know what happens when pressure's coming the first two games turns out he throws touchdowns when pressure's coming you know he's looked awesome he's just delivered these huge passes I mean honestly last week he was backing up that throw against Pittsburgh the huge bomb to rugs. He chucked it up. I was like, all right, there's another Derek Carr interception. And no,

he hit the guy in stride for a touchdown in a huge situation, big play. Like those are the plays. You know, we talk about it with other quarterbacks. What gets you into that top five? You know, he's the third and longs, the big pressure plays. He's doing that. It looks great. You know, obviously as a chief sky, it's not the most exciting news with him and with Herbert and with the Broncos being two and O. But I've been really impressed of what I've seen from him for two weeks. he's 30 right i mean Derek Carr has been in my life for as long as i've done this essentially he was drafted in 2014 and that was back when i was a great one with barnwell i can remember talking about that draft is it possible to become a different quarterback even enough enough of a different version of

yourself at age 30 in the NFL or are we just lying to ourselves well that's the question uh you'd like to think that, you know, people change. I think Aaron Rogers spent a whole off season telling us how much he's changed as a person. But, you know, guys kind of revert back to their natural state under pressure. And that's the tough thing, especially when we're literally talking about a guy under pressure. I mean, that's what everyone's kind of saying with Carson Wend says, yeah, he might look good for a little bit. But as things break down, as the season goes along, is he going to revert back to the bad habits and inconsistency from the last couple of years? You know, guys get better. You know, Alex Smith, you know, had that 2017 year where he just literally said, F it, that was his whole mantra the whole year.

Effit, screw, let's throw it. He started throwing bombs. He was attempting passes he had never attempted before. Cars are smart guy. You know, they can make that conscious decision to do it. Whether that gets borne out for a 17-game season and potentially the playoffs and whether that's something that's, you know, fixable and transforms a guy into this upper echelon quarterback for the second half of his career. You know, I'm not sure off the top of my head there's any test cases towards that being the way things go. I mean, typically by 25, 26, the guys kind of establish himself as that top tier quarterback,

and he remains in that category for the rest of his career. That's to be seen. You know, the league is just different these days. I feel like kind of all the preconceived notions of developmental curves and what offense is supposed to look like, young quarterbacks, old quarterbacks. I mean, Brady's doing stuff at 44 that literally no one's ever done. these young quarterbacks are doing stuff that no one's ever done. So there's not this like eight-year window for quarterbacks like there used to be from like 25 to 33.

It's 21 to 44. And, you know, we're seeing some cool stuff at every level. So I'd like to think that, yeah, a guy at 30 can, markedly change his game in an area for improvement for the better and really, you know, vaults himself into that top tier.

So let me make the argument as to why Derek, Carr could be a different version of himself at 30 than he was at like 27, right? So if you go back to 2018, he finished dead last in the NFL in air yards per attempt. Dead last. We're not talking like below average, bottom three or four, the lowest mark in the entire league. That has changed. He's seventh right now, but he's fourth in air yards per completion in the NFL. The way that they're playing offense and what they're asking him to do is different.

you combine that with an offense that gives him a lot of help, right? I made this comparison last year when I wrote about the Raiders because I just think they were a confounding team last season. There were stretches where they looked like a top-ton offense. And then there were stretches where it's like, well, what is this team? Like their defense is terrible. Like can their offense get over the hump? And I made the comparison to the Chiefs. I talked about how there are so many similarities, I think by design with the way that the Raiders are built and the way that you guys were built.

The Waller is Kelsey. Henry Ruggs is their version of Tyree Kill, if a diminished version of Tyree Kill, obviously. I think that John Gruden does a very good job as that kind of figurehead play calling head coach in the same way that Andy Reid is. But it was this knockoff version, right? Was Derek Carr, was his ceiling what Alex was for you guys in 2017, like 85% of that? Or was there another gear there? And I think that when you combine the aggressiveness built into the offense,

the style that he's playing with, the help that he has, and just his overall command of what's going on, I think you could build the case for why this might stick around for the rest of the year, for why this could go from them being the eighth to tenth most efficient passing game in the league to the fifth the most. And if the defense is merely competent, what does that mean for them? I can make that argument and actually feel like I got a leg to stand on. So their offense, I think Gruden has not gotten the credit he deserves for their offense.

I agree. He is not just playing this like, you know, 1980s smash mouth football. You know, he's got a great scheme. He, you know, puts Waller in these one by three formations. And, you know, he does all the things that the modern coordinators are doing. And, you know, he's even doing some cutting edge stuff that other coaches, you know, take from. So he definitely knows what he's doing. But it has skewed towards a quote unquote easier offensive.

or more quarterback-friendly offense in terms of running the ball, some play action, quick game. Even the play action stuff has been a little bit shorter. You know, as they've gotten more speed the last couple of years, they've been willing to push the ball down the field more. And that's kind of your point, that maybe this is that last piece of the offense that they can, you know, run a few more play action shots throughout the game on third and eight, third and 12, you know, they're not just running these little three-yard out routes and hoping a receiver makes someone miss.

you know, potentially there's this next level of the offense that Gruden can utilize. And we saw this with Coach Reed. I mean, there was the year that zero wide receivers scored a touchdown. Obviously, Alex's, the knock on him was, you know, that he wouldn't throw the wall past the line of scrimmage. And once the personnel changed, and once the philosophy changed, they all those days and they threw them. So now maybe with Gruden, he's got the speed, he's got the horses, quilling, you know, he's able to add this extra 30 yards of offense on the back end that they didn't have before. Yeah, I think that makes total sense. And again, it's only two games.

And we'll see if this can keep up for the rest of the year. But I do think the component pieces are there. If I were a Raiders fan, I'd be all in. Like, I would have talked to myself into this midway through that Steeler game, I think, because I understand it. I understand how you get there. All right, let's stick in the AFC West for now. I want to talk about the Chiefs Ravens game,

specifically the Chiefs run defense. Because through two games, it has been a problem. We can just say that. They right now have the worst EPA per play allowed on runs in the NFL comfortably. They're allowing a 59.7% success rate on opponent running plays through the first two weeks. They also have played arguably the two best running teams in the NFL in the Browns and the Ravens. So I think that the question is, if we're sorting through this right now, how much of this is real concerns about the pieces that make up the Chiefs run defense and how much of this is,

well, playing against the Ravens and the Browns just sucks. It's really, really difficult to slow those teams down no matter what your run defense looks like. So when you're watching that game on Sunday night, let's say on a scale of 1 to 10, how concerned are you about the season-long run defense for the Kansas City Chiefs? I tend to not get concerned about many things on a season-long basis when you have Pat Mahomes, a quarterback and Andy Reid is that's why you're here so I'm just not concerned I mean of the things that you're going to make your team about in modern day football run defense is probably the least important I'd say um now there are there are things and it's the same on offense that you know

the O-line guys argue that the the physicality the body blows the mentality you know being a good run defense has that aggression that attacking mentality that physicality it does bleed over into past defense and all the other stuff. To me, it's like they just happen to have the two worst rushing offenses to go against and back-to-back and totally different stylistic, you know, schemes. And I said this last week in terms of the Browns, the Browns spent all off-season gearing up for Kansas City. It was revenge from the Henny game and the AFC playoffs.

You know, they know that the AFC runs through Kansas City and that's what they had to do. Of course, they took a pretty good shot. it choose when well the ravens just admitted after the game that that was like four years worth of pent up aggression and rage over losing all these you know jacks and the homes matchups and that was you know added baggage to to the game that maybe kansas city isn't going in there with maybe to kansas city it just you know another sunday night game against a really good team on the road and maybe it wasn't oh wow we've got to get four years worth of losses off our shoulders um so you go against you know one of the top three offensive lines in the nflm one of the top

three or five schemes in the NFL in Cleveland. And you flip that around. And obviously, you know, we talked about the Ravens O line last week, moving Villanueva to his natural position, definitely paid off. You know, they had some other guys who played pretty well. But that Ravens scheme is really, really difficult. I thought they were as diverse as ever seen them. I mean, they're doing all the same option stuff and guys in moving parts,

except it's a little bit more spread out now. You know, before I felt like they were more of a two tight end, fullback. like, you know, kind of old school v-r option, like pack the box and just make things happen. Now it seems like they're doing all that similar stuff from more of these spread formations, getting more speed on the field, stretching things out. And so, you know, from my perspective, obviously they need to do better in terms of the Chief's defense against the run. I think that was the worst two games to start a season.

You could really, you know, ask for it from that perspective. So I'm not too worried about it. You know, I think they got the guys. I mean, Chris Jones, they got Reed from Seattle. They got Eric Nottie, who's one of the better run defenders that people don't know about. So no, I'm not worried about it. But, you know, we'll be talking throughout the year and maybe late October that switch will flip a little bit. I was rewatching the game today and I was just sitting there and be like, poor Ben Neiman.

Like, poor Ben Neiman and Nick Bolton, like guys that just, you know, all respect, I'll do respect to Ben Neiman. When the playoffs come, we're hoping that it's a Nick Bolton with 15 starts under his belt and Willie Gay back in there. or guys that just have been in those roles for a little bit longer. I mean, it's just a really, really tough ask for those guys against those two run defenses in the first two weeks of the season. Yeah, I mean, can you imagine your second career start that Lamar Jackson's back there? He like turns his hips one way. He's faking it off.

You've got this 300 pound fullback tight end defense alignment running in the opposite direction. You've got like four three speed on the outside. You've got Sammy Watkins doing his stuff. And like everyone's going in different directions and you just have no idea where the ball is. If it's a run, if it's a pass, which direction, what to do. That's a, that's a tough ask. And, you know, it's one of those welcome to the NFL moments. And, you know, I'm not one for like, get the bad loss out of your system early.

But I do think this is very valuable experience. You just, you can't mimic that in practice. You know, you can throw whatever fast guy you want at Scout QB. You know, he's, he's sure is heck not Lamar Jackson. And there's just nothing that replicates that. So seeing it early in your career is good. You can learn from it. You know, you're going to go against these teams throughout the year who sprinkle in run option stuff.

You know, the charges can do it with Herbert. You know, it seems like maybe they're not as willing as they were last year. But you're going to go against a bunch of teams that sprinkle it in. You know, very few are going to have the emphasis that the Ravens do. But then again, in two weeks you go and you face Philly. And, you know, Philly's going to run a bunch of that stuff too. So it's good experience. It's good to see at the highest level on the biggest stage.

And, you know, if you're drafting a guy and you're saying he can't handle a bad game, you know, obviously that's not the right draft. So I think these guys are going to respond from it and learn for the future. Who was the scout team quarterback when you guys would play the Ravens? That's a good question. It was always, you were always to put like a receiver back there or some sort of. I was curious. I was like, I'm not sure Chad Henny is going to be replicating Lamar Jackson in those situations.

So Chad has surprising wheels. Let's give him his credit. Hey, we saw him on that roll out. he can scoot a little bit. No, I mean, obviously it's not 100% Chad Henny. I think for the run periods, you get a receiver in there. You get, you know, a DB who might be playing scout team defense against the first team offense. Someone, you know, a lot of these guys have played quarterback at some point, whether it's college,

whether it's, you know, high school more likely. So it's not like you're, you know, taking you out there and throwing him a quarterback and saying, hey, go execute. Hey, I know you're a former lineman. You haven't, you know, rode the mesh. too often in your life. I really have not. I really haven't.

My back was turned to all the mesh happening behind me and our triple option offense that we ran in high school. All right, something else that you want to talk about that I definitely wanted to dig into. And that's the Washington defensive line. We had a couple of questions about it in the mail bag that we did yesterday with Stephen Holder. I wanted to save it because I wanted to go back

and rewatch the game that they played against the Giants last week. I mean, this is a team that was supposed to be a group, a position group. They were supposed to be dominant this year. Like, because supposed to be the, best front forward in the entire NFL. And that just hasn't happened. They have a 26% pressure rate through the first two games. That's fine. It's not that great. It's not that bad. They've also blitzed at the third highest rate in the entire league, which is a tiny bit misleading because

they're using a bunch of five-man fronts, which have been really wonky, which we can get into if you want to. But when you are watching that group right now, where do you think they're falling short of what our expectations were for them coming into the season? to me they're not winning the one-on-one blocks the way we thought they would i mean we thought this was going to be you know san francisco two years ago um you know what we've seen of of you know Pittsburgh in week one against buffalo like just four guys maybe five guys up front rushing the passer wrecking shop and changing the game and we just haven't seen that so far i'm not really sure why you know they had a lot of hype on them going into the year i'm not sure if

i don't think they got complacent but you know uh hearing themselves talked up up every single day, how this is going to be, you know, the best defense in the NFL, the best de-line in the NFL. But they were supposed to be legitimately, you know, one of the top five overall units in the NFL at any position group because of the skill, the, you know, the speed, the athleticism, the draft pedigree, what they've shown on the field. And that's supposed to be a unit that can literally elevate the entire side of the ball and win games for you and be the reason that, you know, you're a playoff contender and you go deep. And we just haven't seen it. It's as simple as, you know, beating the guy in front of you, you know, that Thursday night game, they're going up against a Giants a line that had definitely struggled a lot and struggled precisely to do what Washington is best at, get after the passer.

So I was surprised to see it. You know, I thought Jones was in for a very long night. It turns out that was one of his best career games, if not the best, because he was all time. Yeah, yeah, time. So I don't know what the disconnect is. I mean, they have good coaching. They have good skill, good players. they've shown it before.

But for their sake and for the, you know, the expectations that they had for that unit and for that team, I mean, those guys need to become the game wreckers we expected. A little bit of chipping here and there. Like, I mean, you go back and watch that. There were some moments. It's like, all right, they're chipping Chase Young a little bit. But it's not as if it was happening every single play.

There's still a lot of one-on-ones that they're not winning. And even when there's not a chip-up on the outside, most of the time the guy getting double-team, when they're rushing four guys is Jonathan Allen. It's not Chase Young or Montes Sweat, the two first round defensive ends that they have. And you're just watching it. It's like, I don't know, man.

There just is not a lot of progress from where they were a year ago. Like, I watch Chase Young right now, and you can still see the gears turning. Like, it is not working all in concert. It still feels like he's having trouble stringing stuff together and timing things together. It really doesn't look like they're much different than they were a year ago. And I think that that's a problem when you deploy them

in the way that Washington is, which is essentially saying, we expect you guys to win. There aren't a lot of games. There aren't a lot of different things that they're doing. It's pretty much rush for, let's see if our guys can do it, and right now they can't. Yeah, and look, any good defense line is going to get schemed up. There's going to be chips.

There's going to be help. There's going to be stuff the offensive coordinator does to help his offensive line out. That didn't matter two years ago for San Francisco. You know, that whole season, we went into the Super Bowl and we had help either a chip or a top. formation or something uncomfortable or misdirection. It didn't matter.

They still got after the quarterback. You know, that shouldn't matter if you're the group that we expected them. And yet to your point, you know, about Chase, he had that sack in the preseason and it was a very skilled rush. It was, you know, throwing the hands, chop, ripping through, flipping the hips. And that's what got us excited is that we saw it. We saw it in, you know, quote unquote live action in the preseason. You know, we saw this development in skill.

And for whatever reason, it just hasn't translated in the first couple weeks. I know, you know, the guys that they seem to be, they seem to be, you know, prideful. And I would expect them to get it figured out and get to it. But, yeah, I mean, every team's going to go into, you know, an offense a week against Washington. And they're going to say, all right, what do we need to do to beat them? We need to block up front. Do we trust our offensive line against them every single play? There's really zero lines in the NFL that you trust, you know, to pass block 35 times every single play.

So you're going to scheme and help. I mean, even the best align scheme and help. yeah, they're going to have to overcome that. And like you said, a lot of the times, yeah, there's chips and there's little rubs and things to make defensive ends uncomfortable, but the true double teams come inside. It's usually the center who's uncovered or a guard that's uncovered. And those two guys work together at the beginning. Maybe the guard gets that late to clean up the pile. I mean, you know, we saw Quinn Nelson, the greatest kill shot of all time two years ago against the Ingram spin.

We've seen, I still remember Brandon Shurf, like absolutely destroyed just in Houston when Washington was in. Kansas City, I guess that's four years ago now because, you know, the Chiefs were playing Washington this year. But just stuff like that, you know, that's not there every single time. So the double teams come on the inside. Defense events can also split double teams because the tackle and the guard get on different levels. And, you know, we just haven't seen it. I fully expect to see it in the next few weeks. But again, I'm not an overreactor.

It's just been a really big surprise to me. And, you know, I thought they would all kind of feed off each other in a way that we haven't seen. They're also just, again, not a lot of games, not a lot of stunts. If you're going to have these Uber athletes that they have that aren't winning via traditional rushes and just letting those guys pin their ears back and go, do something to help them out. I mean, do something to make the offensive line uneasy. There hasn't been any of that. Like, if you're an offensive lineman, do you want a team just to sit there and rush four from where they're lining up every single play? I have to imagine that's exactly what you want.

I'm going to contradict you there. For me personally, when they run stunts in games and twists. Well, it gets those guys. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's Chase Young. That's Montau's sweat. That's, you know, the interior guys.

I know I and I just got hurt. But Alan and the other guys, I mean, I would rather them be on the move, them doing something different and their main intention to be not specifically beating me. You know, I want the three tech to really just try to pick my hip. It's easier for me to take over. And I'll go let the center and the guard, you know, get both over the top. And I'd rather them run an E. where the end goes inside first and all I have to do is really flatten him off and if I do

I've won the rush but that's not the defensive end running full speed at me having a three way go. He has a predetermined thing that he has to do and typically guys give it away you can feel it. So I always loved going against, you know, particularly back in the day the Steelers, because they ran so many zone pressures where they drop in end. They bring guys from the other side like you'd go against them and they'd have these awesome dudes and I'd have like three true one-on-one pass pros the entire game. and it's like, yes, please, sign me up for that. Or like New England, you know, they run the bare defense three down linemen covering the

center and the two guards and their defensive ends half the time are like Chip and Kelsey chipping a running back and they're not really fully committing to a rush. And so, you know, a few years ago they were a lot bigger into that. And so you'd go into a game against New England and I'd love it because they might have Trey Flowers and they might have, you know, Winnevich who's, you know, or Uche or these other guys. But half the time they're chipping someone and they're not. giving me their best rush. So for me, the thing I don't want is a true straight rush. I understand what you're saying that if that's not working, maybe mix it up. You know, you've got these freak

athletes at the end. You know, we've seen these guys come around the corner and just accelerate and destroy quarterbacks. The interior guys are disruptive. So those TEs, those other games, you know, they should be able to free up some space for the ends. But yeah, it's kind of that definition of insanity. If you just keep throwing four and five man rushes at an offense and it's not working and you're getting carved up, then yeah, try something else. That's my thing. I mean, that's if I wouldn't want to do that as if you have those guys, there's a reason that you've spent the resource that you have on that.

There's a reason New England never does because that's how they play along the defensive line. But if you're going to spend four first round picks on your front four, make it work somehow. I mean, just do something that's going to make it work. You're like flabbergasted right now. You don't even know what to say. It's so frustrating because I watch that game and it's just like doing it over and and over and over again. And the other thing that they're doing, and I'm curious to ask you about this,

I haven't seen a lot of this just in the NFL period. They're running like true five-man fronts. Like we see five man fronts a decent amount of the time. But we're talking like five down linemen with their hands on the ground. And I understand how you get to that point if you're Washington, right? We have five good linemen. How do we get them on the field together? Let's just put them all out there together. I get how you understand how you get there. And by doing it, you create one on once. But I have to imagine as an offensive line, it's like, well, if they're going to do this, we know who's coming, we know who we have to block. There isn't a lot of confusion associated with that. So I'm just not entirely sure what the upside or end game is by trotting those guys

out there and deploying them that way. Right. And typically when you've got, you know, five down linemen, you know, one or two of them are standing. It's more of the three, four style they're standing because there's a potential they could drop into coverage. Exactly. If a quarterback sees five guys with their hand on the ground, well, five are coming. There's only six guys left to cover. You know, it's probably going to be man and then one safety deep or maybe a guy, you know, on the second level, not super deep.

And so, yeah, you're basically just saying, we're going to play you man to man across the entire board. Five one-on-ones up front with the L-L-L-L-D line, five one-on-ones in the back end, and basically a safety and a quarterback. who were reading off each other. You know, we faced my last year in Cleveland. We faced Oakland. Khalil Mack, obviously. Alvin Smith was on the other side.

They basically did that. They ran 5D lime in the whole game. Me and Joe Thomas had about 45 one-on-one blocks the entire game. Afterwards, we were like, do we really just do? Like, we just had 40 101s against Khalil Mack and Alvin Smith the entire game. That sucked. But yeah, it's not the greatest from, you know, either perspective. of like you have to have those horses and they have to be getting home.

Otherwise, you got to mix it up. Like you can't just roll out a cover one, very obvious, five guys are rushing and not have those guys get home. It was funny to me because there were moments where they had Bostic line up with his hand on the ground because they wanted to show that look. It's like he's not even like a pass rushing linebacker. Like I don't understand anything that's happening right now. It just feels like at some point in the offseason, the Washington coaching staff was like,

oh man you know what we could do we can line up all five of them together and now they got really excited about this idea and then you see it in practice and it's like this is very underwhelming like i'm just not sure what we're trying to accomplish here yeah well they've had a few extra days they got the mini by pretty early in the season so i'd imagine uh there'll be a few changes whether it's letting a fire under them to make those one-on-ones pay off or a little bit of a schematic change but yeah it's going to be interesting to see and i'd like to see them get back I mean, even though I love a line, I like seeing a defense of line just take over a game. Like it's just, it's really cool to see.

I think it's a little bit more apparent, especially from the fan perspective, to see a D-line just like demolish a quarterback and enforce a bad offensive performance. You know, there are some good secondaries that can take over a game, but it's just like, oh, the quarterback has a couple extra seconds. There's no one down field. Maybe he gets sacked. Maybe he throws it away. Like seeing a D-line take over the game, I think is a really fun game to watch. and it's just like cool to see. And so I want those guys to get to, you know, the form that we expect of him.

What do you, when you're watching Young, what do you think is the gap that we're seeing right now? What do you think is holding him back from being somebody who just consistently destroys those one-on-ones that teams are going to throw at him? I would imagine it's that he's not like comfortable enough to turn off his brain and just let his body take over. Yeah. He's still learning the skill of all those things. And, you know, for people that like play golf, golf, if you're trying to think about your swing and all your swing thoughts as you're swinging, you know, your body's a little more tense. You're not going to have quite as good of a swing.

If you can kind of just shut your mind off, you know, be loose, be relaxed, be free, let your body take over. You know, that's when the best things happen. That's, I mean, Travis Kelsey at Tident is the definition of like loose and free and just doing whatever he wants out there and it looks beautiful. You know, Chase is still learning. He's still developing that skill. And I think he's probably thinking through, you know, his moves as he's going. Like, all right, this is a one-on-one. one and my third step, I'm going to throw this hand. And then if he throws his outside hand, I'm going to chop. And then I'm going to swivel and dip my hips and, you know, bend to get the quarterback.

You know, at some point, that just becomes second nature. Your body just reacts off it. You know, a couple weeks ago, we talked about Joey Bosa and how he can basically do anything and expose you on any little inconsistency. You know, he's not thinking about anything. He's just like attacking you. And the second you overset, his body reacts and boom, he's inside. And I would imagine the chase isn't quite there yet.

he's got all the physical gifts he's clearly getting more skilled i mean we know that we've seen it i think it's just not subconscious i think it's conscious and that aspect of thinking through it is is in my interpretation probably slowing him down just a little bit my amateur brain that's exactly what i see is just you can just see the gears turning where he's like all right now i shoot my hands now i swipe it's just such a mechanical thing and when you see a really great athlete operating mechanically like that it's pretty obvious. With Bosa, there's a fluidity to it that is truly incredible. It's like a living, breathing thing the way he's able to read the way that

offensive linemen moving. Just like the inside, outside moves that he does, where it's just like, it's instinctual. Like, we know that. But when you watch it in real time, how quickly his body adjusts to whatever's happening to him is insane. And I think that's absolutely right. Like you see the huge gap between what that looks like and what Chase Young is doing right now. you know typically when people ask you know rookies especially like what's the best thing I can do

to you don't want to go what I do on this play oh do I have him I'm not quite sure like that indecision that lack of confidence and what you're doing that leads to you know those bad plays lack of success and it's kind of the same thing like it's just too much thinking in any aspect and so uh yeah too much thinking on the field is not a good thing I have had that plenty of times in my career I'm definitely an overthinker. And, you know, I try too hard to do certain things. So this is coming from a lot of experience. But yeah, I think the cool thing is Chase is working at it.

He's getting better. The scary part is it's going to click. And eventually his body is going to take over and then, you know, good luck NFL. That's why I'm so frustrated because I want it. Like, I want to see these guys like fully clicking and fully having it all come together because I do think that there's so much potential there. By the way, you know, some people have those dreams where. they forgot to do like they forgot that they have a class and they show up in the day of the final and

they didn't take the class the entire semester. I have a recurring dream still to this day, still to this day where I show up for football game and I don't know any of the place. Like I am inserted into the game and I don't know what I'm supposed to do on like any single play and I have to ask the guy next to me and it's just this crushing fear that I apparently still have. I have not played a football game in 17 years and I still have that dream. Okay, so I don't have that specific one. I have the one where I'm either late to the game and like, I'm driving to the game and then like,

Oh, I forgot something at home. I have to go home. Oh, no, I'm late. I got to call coach. Or I'm like getting ready for the game. Like my gloves aren't there. My pads aren't there. I freak out.

I also have the one where randomly I'm like back in college and it's the first day of college or it's finals day. Sometimes one of the finals day. Like I just don't know what classes I'm in. where to go and I don't know that like I've been in class the whole semester. So yeah, for me, it's not knowing anything in school or not getting to the game on time. But it's never getting on the field and forgetting everything. So that's a very specific on dream of yours.

Mine is a combination of getting on the field and not forgetting everything. I fire out and the guy doesn't move. Like I just like feel very, very weak. Like that is also a part of this dream. But there's also an equipment aspect to it as well. Many, many times. I'm like, where is my helmet? Like, the game is starting and I cannot find my helmet.

I have not played a football game since 2005. All right. It is something deeply troubling. Here's a question. What size are you in these games? Are you like your current self? I'm, I am me right now. I am me at like 187 pounds playing offensive line.

Well, maybe that's what's manifesting. That's probably what it is. My understanding of dreams like that is, is that they're completely rooted in like very real imposter syndrome, which I absolutely have. So I'm not at all surprised that I have this dream in like many, many different varieties. All right. Speaking of imposter syndrome, let's talk about the Steelers offense. So who really?

What are they, what are they pretending to be? Because I'm not sure just an NFL offense. I think that people thought that they were going to be better this year. I think people thought, all right, new offensive coordinator, younger, more dynamic offensive line, right? Like, that's how you start to build the argument. It has not happened. Through two games, they are me. They're 20th in EPA per play. Naji Harris is averaging 3.2 yards per carry while facing eight guys in the box on 3.85% of his snaps, which is the third lowest rate in the entire NFL. So it's not even like there's a high degree of difficulty

for the ways that they're struggling. Rathlisberger is 29th among 33,000. three quarterbacks in the percentage of his snaps at or behind the line of scrimmage. So it's an easy offense in theory for what they should be doing right now and they're still struggling. When you watch them last week, does it just feel like things are hard for them again in the same way they looked like they were last year? It sure doesn't look easy. Yeah, it's just it doesn't look good.

There's nothing that they're doing that really looks right or that looks smooth that it shows any continuity or confidence. There's no flow to the offense. You know, I know you talked about a new coordinator. They were going to get under center. They were going to play action. They were going to have motion. They were going to do all these things that are really crucial for, you know, modern-day football. It just hasn't translated. You know, it's hard to pinpoint exactly why. You know, Ben obviously doesn't look like his old self. He looks a lot like he did last year, which, you know, was a pretty big decline for him that's carried over into this year, even though apparently he, you know,

started working out and got himself in shape in year 17 or 18. You know, I don't know why it's really looking that way in the run game. You know, I thought with the new coordinator, with, you know, these young alignment can block, you know, especially in the run game. So it's not like, oh, it's just a crappy align

and that's that simple. As you said, it's schematically, you know, and based on the defenders that they're facing should be a situation that they're running more efficiently. it's just not there. It's honestly, I feel like right now I'm talking about them the way the offense looks like I just don't really know

what else is to say. It doesn't feel right. It doesn't look right. But this is kind of what I thought they'd be. You know, I'm not surprised at all. You know, I said this after last week, too. I thought that game against Buffalo was a bit of, I wouldn't say a mirage,

but they basically relied on a dominant front for performance and one special team's touchdown to win a game. It wasn't the offense, that's for sure. And relying on that, week and week out in the NFL is really difficult. And then, of course, T.J. Watt gets hurt. They're already without two-it.

And so now that dominant D-line is just a good D-line, and all of a sudden the strength of your team isn't there anymore, and you can't rely on a special team of defensive touchdown every week. And this offense just doesn't look right. And I don't know that there's really good stuff in sight. I mean, they might just have to, like, go spread again and have Rathesberger chuck it around. But again, you watch them and you don't say,

oh, yeah, they need to put the ball in Ben's hand more. So I'm not sure. I wonder, you know, I'm curious about what you think. But for me, it just doesn't look right and also looks lost and without an obvious way to fix it. Yeah, it just looks disjointed. I mean, it looks disjointed and, again, just difficult in the same way as that it was last year, where there just isn't a lot of avenues to create explosive plays. Like, I mean, he had a couple throws down the field last week.

I mean, Casey Award made a really nice play in the end zone on a ball. I mean, but it just doesn't look like it's a dynamic offense in any way. Like, nothing about it scares me. And I'm curious, so you have had the luxury over the last few years of playing for Andy Reid. So that's not a concern there. But you also played for some Cleveland teams that maybe left a little bit to be desired offensively. And it's obviously like there's some years like you played for Kyle in 2014 like that. I still maintain that that offense would have been good for the entire season if Alex Mack hadn't gotten hurt, even with Brian Hoyer at quarterback.

But there are some other years where I'm sure it did feel that way, where it felt disjointed. It didn't feel like anything worked together. When you're on an offense, how does it feel to sense that? Like when you're in the middle of a game, how real is that feeling where you're just like, none of this makes sense. Like all of this is just scattered plays and throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. So you definitely feel it. It definitely just feels off and not right. And like, why can't we make this happen?

Why isn't this working? So there's two points there. One is when you have a good offense and the others when you don't have quite a good in offense. So if it's the chiefs, if it's Mahomes, and it just doesn't look right, it doesn't feel right.

The offense isn't having success. Typically what happens is it's one guy on each play is making an error and everyone's taking turns. So there's 11 guys on offense. Let's just say the first five plays, each of the offense alignment, like the first play, the left tackle screws up.

The second play, left guard screws up. The third play the center. And so after 11 plays, you know, you've had one bad play out of 11. You're looking back and thinking, oh, I've been playing pretty good. I had 10 really good plays, 10 good blocks. Yeah, maybe I gave a little pressure on the one, but it wasn't too bad.

And everyone's feeling like individually, they're doing a good job. But in total, there have been 11 plays, 11 screwups, and 11 poor offensive plays. And so there's no rhythm. It just doesn't feel right. You're wondering, I'm playing pretty well. What does everyone else doing? And why are figuring it out? And so in those situations, guys just start playing better.

one mistake out of every 33 plays and now all of a sudden the offense takes off and you score a bunch of points. That's with the good offense. When it's not quite as good an offense, there's some issues because typically it's a combination of less skill and worse schematics. And so the scheme isn't really setting up to be that upper tier offense. You know, the coordinators aren't quite as good. They're not, you know, understanding zone versus man and letting the quarterback make easy reads. You know, you're having a young quarterback back there who's unsure of the defense and, um, now he's holding onto the ball. Now the O line's a little more exposed because he's holding on to it.

Different kind of dysfunction that, you know, for the most part, it's not just one guy every play here and there and you just trust that if you pick up the execution, it'll come together. That is a much more hopeless feeling because you're going to try so much stuff if the offense isn't right, if the personnel isn't right. Obviously, those coordinators who are in the bottom tier of the NFL know what to do to make it right either. So they're going to start throwing stuff at a wall.

they're going to start stealing plays from other teams that they don't really understand just because it looked good the week before. And so that's a much more hopeless feeling. But the good offense that looks at a rhythm that looks at a sync, for the most part, it's just one guy's shrewing up each play and they're all taking turns. I mean, it seems like it's not that simple, but it is. We talk a lot about just making it easier on your guys, right? How do offensive coaches make it easier on their guys? How did Andy Reed make it easier on you? Like, what tangible ways was your job easier because Andy Reed was your offensive? play caller. So before, you know, a lot of runs, even on the backside, you know, we say if you're on

the backside of certain zone plays, you're basically on the front side because by the time the running back gets the whole, the decision of where to go is kind of based off of you. So whether you're a front side tackle, a backside tackle, a front side guard, backside guard, the running back is kind of always working off of everybody. And so your block is equally as important. In an RPO, half the time, you're on the back side and you just kind of have to just like literally stay in there and get in the way of the defensive end and, you know, the quarterback is reading a linebacker or he's reading someone else and like, that's a play you don't take off, but it's not a very high stress play.

Or before that was, all right, go try to double team Aaron Donald. And now all of a sudden, you're kind of just taking a little step inside, putting up a hand to help on Aaron Donald, getting back to the defensive end, very easy play. So the run game is a lot easier because, you know, then on the front side of, you know, these shotgun runs, it's not quite as difficult. you know, the ball typically doesn't get outside the front side tackle on a shotgun inside zone. And so that's a play that's not quite as stressful. It's not quite as difficult. You know, the past game with Coach Reed, everything is rhythm-based.

You know, that's what makes Pat special is what he does in the pocket on structure and then outside of the pocket. But it starts in the pocket on structure. And so that's all rhythm-based. The ball is out. I mean, there's so many times where you're like, oh, I just gave him pressure. And like the ball's been gone for two seconds, you know, so he, holds everyone accountable. The quarterback gets it out on time. The receivers get open.

The scheme forces defenses to have these cracks and these seams. And then the next level is the way he mixes up runs past the screens. You know, everything has a purpose, that first 15 that, you know, we talk about all the time. I know you guys have a little segment on it.

That's his ability to kind of force defenses to do all these different things. And yeah, maybe like a wide receiver screen isn't quite so sexy in the first quarter on the first drive. But you know what it does? It forces Von Miller to run 40 yards across the field and chase down Tyreek Hill. And yeah, he's fired when Thurneigh comes because he's huffing and puffing having chased down Tyreek across the field. Like it's all these little things that people don't necessarily realize that they do have a tangible effect.

It's hard to measure them. You can't measure them. But it matters. It makes the O-Lines job easier. And he's a big guy at heart. He's a big guy, I mean, literally too. He understands how difficult our lives are and he tries to make it easier. It's so interesting because I think that you just explain the disconnect between what a really good play caller is in the moment.

We talked about with Lewis earlier today. What a really good play caller is in the moment on game day, having a feel for how one thing relates to the other, having a feel for the connective tissue between everything that you're doing, and what it's like when you just take somebody who may be able to draw up a scheme on a whiteboard because they were the offensive coordinator for so-and-so. but when the time comes and they have to do it in real time and understand this is the button to press and the lever to pull at this exact moment for this exact reason, that's where the disconnect forms. And I think that to me, just from the outside looking in, that's what separates the truly special play callers from the guys just picking from a sheet. Yeah, so Kyle Shanahan, there was a point, I forget who the quarterback was, but we kind of trended towards using a play card,

you know, the quarterback wears that wristband and they relay like, oh, left hash number 66 and he has to look at his wristband and call the play. Well, Kyle hated that because he hated having to look down at the play sheet and find, all right, this is the play. Oh, it's,

I got to relay now left 66. Like, everything to him was just off the top of his head. Like, and so to him having to like relay, you know, plays off of the system to his quarterback, to look at a wristband that everyone else uses to make things simpler.

It actually made it more difficult to him because he rattles it off the top of his head so easily and so effortlessly. It's all this like symphony that just plays out in real time. And that slowed him down and that pissed him off. And that's why he hates wristbands. And that's what you're talking about. It's that rhythm of the game. It's the flow. It's knowing, okay, this run sets up, this play action, sets up this pass, sets up this next run, sets up this thing.

And it's just like one of those beautiful mind things. It's just, you know, really cool to see and obviously really special to be part of. Well, it's Wednesday on the athletic football show. We just solve play calling. So anyone that wants to take a listen, this is for you guys. All right, that's all the time we got. This is great. We could do this for two more hours, but unfortunately we can't.

We will be back doing it again next week. So Mitch, thank you for the time, buddy. This is always fun. I'm sure people will get a ton out of that conversation. Yeah, it's always fun to chat it up. And you bring back some good memories. And I hope you have some more dreams for us next week. Maybe we can start a dream segment.

We'll see where that leads. All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much to Lewis. Thank you guys for listening. Sincerely appreciate it. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. Please subscribe to The Athletic. Theathletic.com slash football show.

We'll be back tomorrow with Lindsay Jones and our weekly team visit. We're going to chat about the Broncos. Very excited about that. Until then, appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was The Athletic Football Show.