The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Inside the Bengals' & Rams' path to Super Bowl LVI with Paul Dehner Jr. & Jourdan Rodrigue

Episode Date: February 9, 2022

The Bengals & Rams both have less-than-ordinary paths to a Super Bowl title, one team had the first pick in the draft just two years before, and another is full of big name veteran playmakers. Will it be the Cincinnati Cinderella story, or the big-name Rams taking the Lombardi? The Athletic's own beat writers covering the Bengals and Rams, Paul Dehner Jr. and Jourdan Rodrigue, bring their unique insight on covering these teams to Radio Row with Robert Mays as they dive into the inside story of each team's path to Super Bowl LVI. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Today is Thursday, February 10th. I'm Robert Mays, coming to you guys from Radio Row in Los Angeles at the Super Bowl. Really fun show for you guys today. I wanted to have on two of our team writers that cover the Rams and the Bengals. One of the benefits of working at the Athletic, and just one of the reasons that the athletic is great, is that we have these writers who have a deep understanding of everything about these teams.

teams, the way they operate, how they got here, why they operate the way that they do. And when you get to this moment with these teams kind of on the brink of a championship, I think those considerations and those conversations are vital. So I wanted to have Paul Deiner Jr. who covers the Bengals for us and Jordan Roderick, who covers the Rams for us, on to just discuss how these teams got here, why they got here, every aspect of where these franchises are. So very, just great conversations with both of them. Let's get to it.

Paul, how you doing? What's up, Robert? It's good to be here, man. It's great to have you here. The Bengals are playing in the Super Bowl, so you're here. So we've reached the point where I said I was going to be comfortable saying that sentence. I said, look, just give me to Wednesday of actual Super Bowl week, and I'll be comfortable saying the Cincinnati Bengals are playing in the Super Bowl.

I'm not there yet. It's still not quite real that we're talking about this team playing in the Super Bowl, but I think I can get there by Friday. We had, I've obviously been on the show several times this year, And one of the reasons that we've been on each other's shows and we've had so many conversations over the last 12 months or so is that the Bengals have been fascinating in a broader sense. You know, you wrote today in the piece that you did about their scouting staff, which we'll dig into here in a second, just about how many debates have gone on, both within the Bengals building, but then just about the Bengals, period. So you and I, you know, going back to April May, had some conceptual conversations about the Bengals. I remember sitting in the press box at Paul Brown Stadium and you and I talked about just what their philosophy was and how they built this thing and what like the best version of this team was.

You came on early in the season when it seemed like they were kind of outperforming expectations. At no point during any of those conversations did I think you and I would be sitting here right now, even if early in the season there was some building optimism about what this team could end up being. No, you're right. And I think there is a moment in week seven in Baltimore. And I'm, you know, the world of everything being captured on the sideline and miced up is so great because we caught the moment that Joe Burrow realized he could be here. Yeah. It was there on the sideline in Baltimore. And he's talking to T. Higgins, but there's a circle people.

He's talking to no one in particular. He just says it out loud. He says, if we can win this division, we can win it all. We can win the whole thing. And he walks off with that look we've all seen. And right then, that has never left me since the moment he said it that day. I wrote about it the next day. I was like, Joe Burrow just realized he can do it with this group.

And they won that day 41 to 17. They were 5 and 2. And they've had fits and starts since then that have really been kind of a really interesting path. But that was when you, that everything before that, that seemed like a pipe dream. And Burrough admitted it just a couple weeks ago. He said, look, before the season started, I would have said, man, it would be crazy that we would, there's no way we're going to make it to the Super Bowl with this group. He wanted to, like, get a winning record, get into the playoffs. They were, they picked the top five the last two seasons.

Absolutely. But it's, so, I mean, he, you know, he, that never thought, he, even he, the most optimistic, I can do anything was like, we can get in the playoffs and maybe win a game and end that drought thing. That'd be great. Yet here they are. And, but since that moment, I don't think they've ever, they have felt that this is a pipe dream at that point.

But it did take that prove, that proving ground early in the season, uh, to show that they, maybe they could do this. So we're going to talk today, which I should have done in the beginning of this, about how the Rams and the Bengals got here, what their paths were to this point. And you and Jordan Roderick could just have such an intimate knowledge of everything about these franchises. And I wanted to dig into that with you. So let's start with Joe Burrell. Because if you're looking at the Bengals' just journey to this moment and what other teams can take from it and how you can –

because that's always what happens, right? How do these teams got here? What can we learn from it? In the Bengals situation, I think there's some things we can learn. I think there are some things that it's just lucking into Joe Burrow. Getting to that point when you lose what, two games or win two games the year before, you get the number one pick in a year with a transformative type of quarterback. So just walk me through, in your opinion, as someone who's covered this team for a long time,

what is different now about the Bengals because Joe Burrow is there? Belief. I mean, there was no belief forever. I mean, there was the belief that existed in the building, in the organization, in the city was one of waiting for the other shoe to drop. What's going to go wrong now? How is this going to fail? The Bengals are just this entity. They're not great corporate citizens.

They're cheap and whatever. It's just a matter of time until they lose and break our hearts. And whatever. Then when Burrow came, it wasn't that. It wasn't. Is this the time that my heart breaks? It's no, this is the time that Joe Burrow comes out of the tunnel. And that belief has captured the team.

It has captured the city. And it's not like he came in and gave a speech. It's not like, you know, I think this enough has been said and written and people have knowledge of now how he sort of does this. It's insane the parallels. I was just on our hold that podcast, the LSU podcast, with Brody Miller yesterday. The parallels between how he did it at LSU and in capturing the team. the program, the state, and how he has done it in Cincinnati just with this very down to earth, hard work, but insane confidence in himself that everybody reaches onto, toughness that every person

that's associated with football loves and admires and wants to follow. He's not a rah-rah guy, he's not, you know, but he has an innate, incredible, instinctual sense of people what people need, what people want to hear, how to be a leader. He grew up the son of a coach. He understands that. And he understands how a quarterback can instill that and has done it now in two different places

using the same method. And then he becomes this quirky fashion guy with the glasses and people love how unique he is. He's the most confident person I've ever seen in my entire life. It's unbelievable. And I was talking to Brian Callahan last week and for a story I'm hopefully going to write later this week, and we were discussing just, okay, how does it manifest when you have this sort of presence? Like, we can talk about it in these nebulous terms, but concretely, what do you see?

And he was talking about it as earned confidence. Like, Joe has earned confidence because of the work that he puts in. And we were talking about the parallels to the Joe Burrow coming into Cincinnati situation and when he was in Denver and Peyton Manning got there. Right. So obviously, very different points in their career. Joe Burroughs are a rookie. Peyton Manning is already one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time by the time he gets to Denver. So when Manning gets to Denver, everything changes because everyone in the organization looks at the quarterback always and says, okay, where can the quarterback take us?

With Peyton, it's instantaneous. From the moment he is there, everyone in the organization looks to him as this kind of beacon. With Joe, it obviously, you have to show it. You have to prove to people that you are that guy, but it didn't take long for him to prove to people that he was that guy. So then everybody in the organization, your understanding of what is possible changes. And when you're understanding of what is possible changes, what you expect of yourself every day, how you come to work,

it gets into the fabric of who you are. And this is how it works with all quarterbacks. But I think with this franchise who's been looking for one, Andy Dalton was what he was, right? Like I think that, in my opinion, contrasting the previous version of this team that could have won a Super Bowl, like that 2015 roster. And you look at how well-built it was and how complete it was.

Andy Dalton was merely a cog in that machine. When you removed him and it all kind of fell apart that season, Joe Burrow was not a cog in the machine. He is the engine that drives this entire thing. And that distinction, I think, you can feel how different that is. Yeah, because nothing creates true belief like the quarterback. Because he is the only one that can really change everything on the field. You can have all the AJ Greens and Mosom News and Marvin Joneses and Tyler Iperts and Andrew Whitworths.

I could go on and on that team. Team was awesome. They were so good. They were so good. You can have all those guys you want. If you don't have the quarterback to really drive you all the way, it's really, really, really hard to do. And when you have that, you're right.

And I think this team in this organization did a really good job of building leadership to compliment Joe. I mean, to really help build that up of guys that feed off of that as well, a young core. And clearing out, you know, Burrow came in and because, let me say he has such a good sense human dynamics. He was reticent to be the leader. You had AJ Green here. Here's Gino Atkins and guys that have been here for 10 years. And he knows, I'm not going to come

in here and tell these guys what to do. They knew for him and all the guys they have now since added over these two years that they thought were really good leaders from winning programs and other winning teams in the NFL to truly take over and change the culture. They had to clear the decks. And that was really the biggest part

of this offseason that happened that people don't talk about. They have a lot of respect. for those players. They love those players, but they knew this new generation could never take over if Giovanni Bernard and these guys were really still there because everyone would say, okay, it's your locker room. Now it's Joe Burroughs locker room. It's Von Bell's locker room. It's Jesse Bates's locker room because they feel like they have ownership of it. And that has really been what's taken off this culture that, no joke, I have never seen anything like it. Everybody likes everybody. Everybody hangs out together. There's this sense of happiness coming to work every day

that you just don't see in a world where everyone's playing for millions of dollars. Yeah. And it's totally unique, and it has been a huge part of the direction they're going. That's part quarterback. That's also part everybody else in the culture that Zach Taylor set all working together. So I want to go back to what you said a little bit earlier about the Bengals are cheap, right? Because for a long, long time, you'd have conversations with other people in the week. I remember I was in Minnesota the day that AJ Green got hurt on that piece of shit college field that they were playing that training camp practice.

on. Welcome Stadium and Dayton. 14-year-old turf. So I was having a conversation with the coach in Minnesota and we were talking about what the Bengals would do that year because it's like, all right, well, this is over. Like this version of it, whatever it was, AJ Green and Andy Dalton is over. Do they try to trade Andy Dalton? What do they do?

And he stopped me. And he was like, you're ascribing normal thinking to the Bengals. And he wasn't even being mean. No, it's not. He wasn't even being mean. They operate different. He was like, it is just as different they do things differently there. And that's how it always was.

And I want to talk about kind of the nuances of that because it's not a negative or positive value kind of proposition that you're talking about. It's just a different way of doing it. They were successful for a while. They went to the playoffs consistently. They won a lot of games under Marvin Lewis. I want to talk about how things have shifted

in terms of the way they do business over the last three years. When they opened the checkbook in the spring of 2020 and they signed DJ Reader to that deal and they signed Trey Waynes to that deal, it was shocking because for years the free agent classes were let's re-sign bobby harp that was what the free agent classes don't do that to bengal's fans but it's true but that's what it was for years that's what it was yes so i want to talk about why how that change happened why do you think that change in philosophy and

change in methodology happened and who do you think is responsible for it and when did it start i think it started when zach taylor showed up okay i mean i think there was a sense when they when they ended the the Marvin Lewis era. You know, there's so much of what we're talking about. Cheapness is the word that gets used. There's a sense of old school family loyalty that exists with Mike Brown in the organization. They just have a sense of taking care of the people that they've brought in. And they don't like the cutthroat, nasty, impersonal, faceless nature of the current NFL business structure.

They still don't like that. I think when Zach Taylor came in and essentially took, convinced them. And not that Duke needed it, but I think Duke Tobin maybe came a little bit more to the forefront of willing to go that route was... Because he's up... You got to operate this way. This team is in his fabric, right? He's been here for 20 years. Duke Tobin had

never sat in front of us until the day they had a press conference announcing Zach Taylor. They wanted Duke next to Mike Brown on the podium. This was his guy. This was his hire. This is the first time we're putting Duke Tobin out here as no longer, we're not going to say the title,

but you can take facto off GM. It should have been done 10 years ago, but that's fine. This is us saying, here he is at the press conference between Mike and Zach. This is him, right? And we're turning it over. And what Zach Taylor and that staff brought in was, look, guys, you're not going to win in this league if you don't get into free agency. Draft and develop and retain is the ultimate model. Everybody knows that. But where we're at, if you're going to gut this thing. They were the worst drafting team in the league for five years. For five years. But I would say the best drafting team in the league to five years prior to that.

Yes. 09 to 13 was one of the greatest runs you'll ever see. 100%. 14 to 18 was one of the worst. It was incredible. But that happens, right? In the NFL, every team is going to have fallow periods when it comes to drafting. The Seahawks were the greatest drafting team of all time.

They built the defining team of a decade of football because of like three drafts from 2010 to 2012. And then inevitably, because no one is good at this, you're going to have those little dips. And the Bengals had to supplement that with outside players, but they were never willing to do that before. And I think that if you look at the way they've built this defense, if they don't change the way that they think, if they don't say we're going to be able to go out, we're willing to go outside the building to add talent, they're not here because the defense is built entirely through free agency outside of two guys. Yeah. And Logan Wilson, I guess, is a third. Jermaine Pratt.

So maybe four guys. You have four homegrown guys and the rest are free agents. It's insane. Yeah, well, and I think it was, I think there was always maybe a willingness to do it if they had to, but they never felt like they had to. They always, I always said they always overvalued their own players. I don't, they ever really properly understood the market of their own guys, because it's like they were like their kids.

They loved them more than anybody else could, and it resulted in things like Bobby Hartson that you mentioned in the world. There were a lot of those. And I think it takes somebody else coming in from the outside. It's a great point. Not valuing these guys the same way and understanding what else you can get to come and reset it. The thing for me going forward will be, and not to spend it forward past Super Bowl, but is like, will they now go back to now these are our guys? And how long will they be

trying to recreate 2021 over and over again? The same way they spent 16, 17, and 18 trying to recreate 15. And at a certain point, you have to move on and see the proper value. I don't know how much they will. I don't think we'll see two-year spending sprees and free agency like we just saw from them again. You don't want them. No. You don't want to do that. And they don't need them. And so I don't think we'll see that. That said, the willingness to go out there and do it and do it with the success rate that you just don't see in free agency is truly a remarkable thing. Everything had to fall almost perfectly into place for them to be in this spot. And it has.

I feel it. So looking at just the overall structure of the organization, this is just knowledge you have the very few people do. My understanding is that some of the family members, Katie Blackburn. Yeah. So I was trying to think of the names. some of the family members associated with the Brown family, some of the younger ones, have gotten more say and it become more prominent in the way the organization runs. Do you think that's influence kind of whatever modern feel the Bengals have started to develop, just the way that the voices are in that building? More on the marketing side.

Okay. So, like, I think operationally, I mean, Duke, Mike Brown sort of pushed the daily day-to-day operations to the side a decade ago. Yeah. This has been Duke and Katie and Troy Blackburn. Katie, his daughter, then Paul Brown as well as the son, have been kind of running the show for a long time on the football side. What is interesting has happened because only can happen in the bagels is Elizabeth Blackburn, Katie's daughter, who is in her late 20s. That's what I'm picking. Has come in and head as director of strategy and engagement and said, Grandpa, look, your franchise, no one.

You need to figure it out. You need a ring of honor. You need to have social media. Your game day needs to be a show. This is entertainment. Mike Brown is Paul Brown. Football is all that matters. And the stadium seats will be green because of the color of the field and we're going to play

the game. And everyone's going to think that's the entertainment and they're going to leave after that. And that's what football is. No. And here's a thing. Mike Brown says before the season started, he said, you know, Elizabeth came in and got all these things and everybody else in the building is scared of me except for her. she is probably the only person on earth that could get Mike to finally come around on all of these things

because you can't say no to your grand honor and that way and it's so people said why she's so young that's a job that people work their whole careers and never get to how can this 20-some year old person come in and when actuality she's the only person on earth that could do that job and have had the success they have to re-engage reconnect with a fan base that didn't just have dislike them was apathetic towards them at this point whatever Bengals. And now it's the exact opposite. They've never been more connected. The city's never been more alive in support of the Bengals. And so much of it is the team, is Burrow, but is also aligning everything else. So when the moment comes, they're properly prepared to be really engaged.

And it's just funny because you need that outside perspective, right? Even though she's in the family, it is a new perspective. And it's the same. You forget how long Marvin was there. So you just, you just forget how long he was there. And you just saying like, Zach getting there and being someone who came from somewhere else, had a different viewpoint, said, maybe we should try some of this stuff. You can feel how different that is. So you wrote yesterday about the scouting staff there, which is obviously, again, an outlier. The way that they do business is different. That's an understatement. So you look at the Rams, I'm staring at Jordan Roderick right here, you look at the Rams and what they do, they have 26 people in their personnel department.

And that's actually probably taking it. That doesn't even go into their analyst side that they have listed like another 30. And the teams at the top make sense, right? So you have the Ravens, you have the Browns, you have, I think probably the Eagles are up there, the Rams are up there, that all makes sense. The Bengals have six. Six members of their personnel department. How do you think some of the tweaks they've made there? How do you think that that operation has fueled just the way they've built this team? What do you think the strengths of that are? Because they're going to tell you that they think it is actually an advantage. They believe it is a feature, not a malfunction. And they believe there is a synergy.

that comes from understanding the building, understanding, because the coaches, the thing is, it's not that they have six. It's that the coaches are the other 15. Yeah. Okay.

And so they want the coaches to feel like they have ownership over who, they know who they can coach. They know what Zach Taylor wants. They know the type of guys that fit in what they're missing. And they want the coaches

to feel part of the personnel staff. They want the personnel staff to feel part of the coaches. The personnel staff will all, often go on the headsets during games and be on the coach headsets, one, to be an extra hand if anybody were to need anything, but two, just to have a pulse for what they're talking about,

what they're in the moment voicing frustration about, to have a sense of that. Duke does that. Mike Potts, the college director scouting, does that. Because it's all, they want it all to be together. They're around ownership all the time. They're all in the building. They all are there together working on that,

and they feel like it creates a sense of unanimous voice of everybody truly understanding what you're looking for in players. And so unlike, you know, one example that was made to me was, look, other guys, they live on a different part of the country. They circle their area all year. It's wild, but there are scouts that just live in their own area. And they'll come in for the draft or for meetings or Zoom or whatever. You know, the constant conversations that are had in the locker room with players, in with

ownership, in with coaches, those things they feel like really help build a true sense. of community amongst everybody pushing the same direction of what they need. Is that right? No. The Rams and Bengals being here proves there is no right way. Yeah. That you can do it every, but they view it as their way, and they don't need more. The thing is they have been told me at the very beginning is we don't need more voices.

We just need the right voices. And Duke Tobin's, I have the right voices. I know it. Two voices are not worse than six. If the six are all over the place and the two are together in unison and the right choice, and that's kind of how they view it. I'll play devil's advocate. They were terrible at building this team for the last five years.

They've gotten much better at it. And the reason this all works is the borough side of this, getting Jamar Chase with the fifth overall pick, and the way they've built the defense. And I think that is, as I step back and I think about this, and I think what aspects of this are replicable, what are things that you can take away? The thing I keep coming back to is looking at the types of players

they went after in free agency on defense, where the price ranges are in those guys. There is a Chiodobeya-Wozyé and a Von Bell available in every single free agent class. You can find those guys. You have to pay a premium for a DJ reader when you chase a guy like that or a Trey Hendrickson. But there are aspects of this where the way they've built this thing,

the personalities, how smart those guys are, the way that's all come together. To me, that's the most fascinating part of what this team is because it doesn't require getting the number one overall pick in a year where the greatest college quarterback of the last 15 years comes out. You know, it's the interesting conversation that I've seen, whether in the comments or responses to the scouting,

stories. Oh, yeah. How about this? You luck into Joe Burrow because you stink so much. Yeah. Obviously, this isn't happening. We're not talking about these slick moves if they went 7 and 10 with some other quarterback. So, yes, there is a total

luck element to building that, but you have to get out of the way. You have to understand how to let Joe Burrow do his thing, what leadership looks like, and what he needs to compliment him. Let's not act like it was like, oh yeah, Draft Burrow, draft, Chase. Like, we didn't spend six months talking about Chase versus Sewell and how to build this thing.

And the decisions are, every spot is its own decision, its own right. So, yes, you get Burrow. A lot of people have gotten good quarterbacks. How many times has it come across like this? Sometimes, but we haven't seen anything like this. And the defense took them here. Like, let's just be honest. Like, the defense is the reason they're here because the way the defense played over the last three weeks.

The step this team was supposed to take this year of, making the playoffs and maybe win in a game is augmented by the defense. They're here because the defense took them that extra two rounds because they weren't good enough offensively yet because of their line to get to the next step. To carry them, the defense carried them the rest of the way. Something I like to ask somebody who covers the team day to day, who are we not talking about enough? Who are the unsung heroes, in your opinion, of this Bengal season that at its core,

a couple of the reasons that they're here but aren't on my mind. Sam Hubbard. That's a really good one. Look, people don't know. When they drafted Burrow, the year they were going to draft Burrow, Hubbard and Burrow are great friends since back in their Ohio state gate together. Hubbard goes to Miami, Super Bowl's in Miami that year Burroughs doing the rounds as the Heisman guy. They hung out all week.

They went like fishing together and hung out together and it started to build the literal core. There's a reason that the two of them went out for the coin toss in Kansas City. The literal core of the next generation started at Hubbard was a big part of they've kind of viewed the two of those guys as like defense, offensive, really quiet, leadership, hardworking, does everything the right way, every day, relentless in practice, relentless in meetings. We want both sides of the ball to be based around that, to look like that. We want guys that play like that and think like that. those two you know hubbard is the other side of it he doesn't get a lot of shine because he's not a pass rusher he's a he picks up scraps that is created he does weird roles like he's a spy in certain situations like it just they they in the Oakland game they had him lined up off the ball I mean the

sack he had he was lined up as an off ball winebacker just he plays this kind of I don't know there are not a lot of rigidity to the role that he plays he does a lot of different things for them yeah well and and he's like a run stopper like a great run stopper and so There's a selflessness to like, he's not kind of this, when you think of great edges, but he is really the personality that he plays with and the tenacity and kind of energy that he plays with feeds everyone. That's kind of what's defined that defense, right? Flying after the ball, always chasing a pass when it gets deflected and able to be there

to get the pick, it's been a big part of what they do as a whole. So, I mean, I think he's probably one that I would point to. What aspect of this when it comes to the city, the fan base, watching how Cincinnati has reacted to this team will stick with you the longest. I don't think, to me, as much as this season on a national perspective, has been about Burrow and everything he is and has become, and the fun Cinderella story of the Bengals, for those inside the city, I grew up there.

I understand the dynamics of the team in the city, probably as well as anybody. this season will always be about this city coming alive. It will always be about this thing that has been created during this run, because it will never be like this again. You only get one first time. You only get one first time breaking through with the new group and the fun new guy, and they've been, it's not just the Bengals. The Reds last advanced in the postseason in 1995.

There is a generation of Cincinnati sports fans that have never experienced success in the postseason ever. Yeah. And this year has been so special for that group of people who are 30, right? Who are just now learning what it's like when the Cincinnati, it's a great

sports town, but it's just been so beaten down to now suddenly the fabric of it of how they define themselves is changed because they believe that Joe Burrough is going to come out of the tunnel now. And it just doesn't feel like you're waiting for Carson Palmer's injury or Kenyon Martin's leg

or Andy Dalton's thumb or John Doni Quedo's oblique or any millions of things that have killed great runs in the past. It's like they're washed away and you're starting over and you now understand that being a sports fan's fun. It's not something that you beat yourself up about and complain about ownership every week. It's fun. It can create unbelievable moments and connections between fans, between fathers and sons and daughters and friends and neighbors. And the videos that have come out of all of these special events have been like just to me that's been the story. That has been the story of what's happened inside of the city of Cincinnati, whether they win Sunday or not.

I mean, no one can ever take that away. They may come back. It'll never feel like this again. It'll never be as special as this has been for the city. And that's what I'll take away. I totally understand that. These are the moments and these are the reasons that being a sports fan is worth it. Yep.

It's for these sorts of payoffs. It's for these sorts of connections. It's to be able to enjoy it. We said it earlier this year. It's like, this is why you endure all that shit. This is why you go through it is for this. It'd be great to win. It'd be so special if they won for all of those people.

But even to get to this point is pretty remarkable. Paul, it's so great to chat with you. It always is. I sincerely appreciate the time. And we'll see you the rest of the week here. Looking forward to it, Robert. All right. It's time now to welcome our Rams writer at the Athletic.

Jordan Roderick, Jordan, it's so good to see you. It's so good to be doing this like this. I know. We're in person. I know. This is so great. I know. I was kind of like I'm trying to compose myself a little bit.

Not be too much right now. Listen, it's easy to get over-excited when you're doing it like this, but I'm so glad that we get to kind of feed off the adrenaline being around each other again. And the caffeine. Yes. Oh, my God. I need so much more than I've already had. All right.

So the whole point of these conversations is kind of follow the path that these teams have taken to this point. And with the Rams, I want to start about a year ago, right? So January 30th, I remember I was at home. I was about to leave for the Super Bowl. I was watching a movie with my then-girlfriend, now fiancé. and the news came down that the Rams had traded for Matthew Stafford. I was like, holy shit. I guess this makes sense.

Like, this all happened very fast. Imagine what I was thinking. Oh, I can't even. I mean, it's from the Jared Gough is our quarterback right now, press conference moment, to that is a matter of days. You know, it really wasn't that long. Take me through your reaction to that, what you thought of it in the moment,

how you felt it fit into what that team needed at the moment, and why it was just part of their DNA as just who they are right now. Yeah, I kind of knew it was coming. You still didn't really believe it because that Friday night was actually my birthday, the night before, I was like, oh, I'll put off the glass of wine for the next night.

And it stayed on my counter for the next five days. So I was making some calls just because I had been hearing some things. And I was like, really, are they really going to pivot like this? As all this stuff is happening in Cabo. Yeah, as all this is happening in Cabo. And you're getting like weird. you know, hey, look, do you know who I just saw, kind of text and all this stuff? So I start making some calls and I learned that they, the Rams are making calls with teams about Jared and not just gauging, you know, would you be willing to trade in general, but also would you take this guy kind of a thing?

And, and, you know, not to sound mean to Jared, but it just was one of those things where you're like, they're serious. You know, because of the contract, it almost was like that, that almost, like, that almost. like a subconscious block or a bias in your mind that you're, you're thinking, no, but they can't, right? Because. It's how you think about everything with this team now. But the Rams, but yeah, that's the thing. This team has retrained my brain. Seriously. It has to. It has to. And then, so I'm sitting there, I'm like, oh, they're taking call. And then at the end of the night, I get after the piece is filed and it's out. And, you know, people are like, you know, quoting it and saying, this is not going to happen. This piece is being manufactured to help manufacture a trade market. And I was

like, no, because people, they're calling people. And then the next day, 8.30 p.m. Pacific, it happens. And Brad Holmes must still be in Pacific time at that point because he had just joined the Lions from the Rams. And you're thinking to yourself, okay, Matthew Stafford, what do I know about Matthew Stafford? And you just have these images in your head of taking hits and playing through stuff. And then also what I thought of initially was the arm angles. And the leverage points and the way that he has for years and years looked off safeties and done different things to maneuver defenses and especially to do so post-snap. And after covering this team, and you and I've talked about this at length, about what they

brought into their house essentially in terms of that defense and understanding that this was going to be the wave, the post-snap rotations, defenses that can make things really, really muddy on the back end and make quarterback's process and pressure in different ways that Jared just was not handling at that time. Yeah. And teams had figured out Sean's offense. And I say that bluntly. It had become something that was solvable, especially with the quarterback.

The box was too small. Yes, yeah, especially with the quarterback. And I know you and Nate especially have talked about, you know, how this offense has evolved. So with Stafford, this was what they were hoping for. In fact, you know, in October, Sean told me, you know, I knew he was going to be good, didn't know he was going to be this good. So they needed to go from, you know, a guy who's ceiling they knew, and then also felt that he would never again reach that ceiling,

but then they needed to pass that ceiling. They needed to get past not necessarily statistically, but in terms of the evolution of the offense, they needed to get past what that entire package of that 2018 season was. They needed to do it in a different way, and to do that, they needed a different quarterback who can do the things that has the variables that I mentioned before, and also who has seen a lot of football who can help build this.

Totally. And it's publicly and privately that summer after they made the deal, Sean McVeigh was a true believer. Like, he was a true believer in what this could do for them. And the terms that he would talk about it in, he would say that plainly, just like, I believe in this. And it was almost an experiment. You know, when you take a quarterback that has been in the league for a decade and he's been in a similar set of circumstances, right? I mean, it ebbs and flows in Detroit, but there is one structure and that's all we knew him in. and you drop him into a different set of circumstances, what does it look like?

And that's always the eternal question with quarterbacks. How much is them and how much is what is around them? And it was amazing to watch it work out exactly how they wanted it to work out. Like it literally was the plan to a T where you said, we need a quarterback that makes our play caller not have to be right all of the time. We need a problem solver and flexibility and margin of error. And we need the offense to expand. That box that we talked about needs to be a lot.

lot bigger. And that's exactly what happens. Yeah. And you know what, too, and I love that you said that because it comes down to this with this team. We're going to probably talk much more about this as this continues, but it comes down to this team almost having a fixation on introducing catalysts into their system because they see it forced growth. They see it forced change. A lot of times, especially with the culture they've built and the core of players that they have on their roster, it has been changed for the positive. So they felt that Matthew Stafford also embodied some of those characteristics. You watch the majority of his games.

He seems to embody those characteristics. I kind of have been starting calling him darkly chaotic Matthew Stamford this year. He is very darkly chaotic. He's very like, it's almost like nihilistic at times. You sit there and you're like, Matthew, are you okay? Because he likes to be in, he thrives. I don't know if he likes it.

All trick shots all the time. That's the joke that we make. But he likes to, I don't know, again, I don't know if he likes it, but he finds a new part of his brain there. And that's, I think, some of the. the things that the Rams saw, certainly when they're in Cabo, Sean McVease picking up on that as someone who is very good at connecting with people and figuring out sort of their why and what makes them tick. And I do believe that once they figured out, first of all, this is the realistic

guy that they can trade for at this time. They did their due diligence on other quarterbacks, but this is the guy who is realistic. And then once you get to know him and start talking to him more, you sort of see that part of his brain that you're like, okay, this actually fits our build. This fits our building. This fits what we do environmentally in this ecosystem. And when put in place in this ecosystem, we believe that he can become a part of this, be a catalyst that pushes this forward. And let's talk about just the overall narrative surrounding this all-in mentality in the way that they spend their draft capital.

Because obviously there are high-profile examples. You trade two first-front picks for Jaywin-Ramsey. You trade two first-arm picks for Matthew Stafford. We forget about the Brandon Cook's trade. It's so far in the past that it's not even a part of this anymore. But that's how they've handled their first round picks, and we know that. But if you look at the way this roster is constructed, three guys that I think have been crucial to this season, and then especially the playoffs have had big moments, guys that are on the other side of this coin.

People like Ernest Jones, people like Nick Scott, people like Great Gaines. There are these people that just kind of cycle in and out that you don't think about enough. Brian Allen's another really good example, right? Just these guys who are third, fourth, fifth round picks, Jordan Fuller's hurt now, but he was one of those guys. Cooper Cup. The Cooper Cup, the connective tissue of their roster plays in combination with these big swings that they have.

And those guys cycle in and out, right? It's a different version of that group every single year, but it's one of the reasons that they've been able to kind of sustain this success. It's my sister's a biologist. A while ago when I was starting to cover this team and learning about what these were. She kind of gave me some tutoring sessions, right? Because in sports for 10 years, you forget everything else in life that you've ever learned.

Nothing else matters. Except for ironically statistics, which I failed in college. So it all comes full circle. But she talked to me about this term mutualism, where both parties need each other to exist, but they mutually benefit from the interaction. Symbiotic relationship. Well, I mean, close, but definitely mutualistic is a level of where they collapse without each other.

Yeah. This is absolutely what this is. This build, so you talk to people in a building and they hate calling it all in. They think it's lazy. They think that it's so just kind of shallow way to describe what this actually is because of what they've built and the planning that's gone into it. And almost taking a cutting from that 2017-2018 build that happens so fast, taking a cutting from that and then replanting it and then hyper-fertilizing it, right? and turning it into like warp speed of, you know, compounding all of these things of what it was. And these guys, their moves, their big moves, their high profile moves that everybody is talking about right now,

they actually don't work without the undercurrent, like you said, of these other guys who they draft and forced to play, again, Catalysts, forced to play at a very young age, early on their rookie deal so you can financially make the bigger contracts work, but also so you can complement some of the core players on the roster who you use draft capital to bring in. in. Neither one works without each other. You can't field a team fully of, you know, you could try. Well, they've tried with all the dead money that they've been doing it over the last few years. Sure. But like this, you know, fully, you know, fourth, fifth, sixth round, seventh round undrafted free agents, you know, you're not going to see rosters fully built with that. But the way that they've done it fiscally and then also physically and schematically is they've built layers into their scheme that exist with complementary traits. So that narrows their focus in the scouting department. And they've also like

made their scouting process. You made an example of that. Somebody that really, like, hones it on that idea. Well, Greg Gaines. I love talking about Greg Gaines. Greg Gaines, man. I love it. He's like a wheel of cheese rolling down a hill and you love it.

So Greg Gaines, so they're looking for someone, they let Aeronautil be creative up front with what they do. And obviously, they play Gap and a half. So when you are looking for a guy who can compliment what Aeronald does, you're not looking for another Aeron Donald. You don't have a first round pick to get Aeron Donald, first of all. You don't have multiple first round picks to find another. Aaron Donald because you've traded them away.

And so now you have to draft and develop a guy not who is going to be lined up next to Aaron Donald and be even like a version of him. You're going to need a guy who has very specific traits that complement everything that Aaron does and weaknesses that Aaron

Donald can hide. So you don't need someone who is a pass rush expert, savant, miraculous player like Aaron Donald. You don't need someone who is versatile like Aaron Donald. You know that Aaron's going to be creative in whatever scheme they run, and they're going to let him do that. And you need someone who is hyper-disciplined and incredibly sort of can spatially see where all of the gaps in creative spaces go and where they line up.

And that's how they found Greg Gaines. They liked that he played really, really disciplined even in out-of-structure situations when he was at Washington. They liked that he sort of has that, like, very stout figure, right? The low man wins kind of situation. And they also like that he had explosiveness. The longer he is playing through a snap, the more explosiveness he's able to gather. Those kinds of things are really important when Aaron Donald is doing what he does all around you and sort of working angles. It's a foundational thing, right?

It's something you can rely on. It's a rock when Aaron Donald kind of spins around it, which is really important. Yeah, but the thing was is Greg Gaines is a fourth round pick. And they didn't need him. Once you're middle, first round, early second round, guys are flawed, right? And that's just a fact. And so what they're looking for instead is they're throwing a, out all of the traits that they know they don't need. And this really, um, less need tried to communicate

this earlier, but it really was a partnership when he and Sean found each other, um, in terms of that communication of don't want versus specific, I want this player. I like what he does. Um, that often happens in these, in these rooms between coaches and staff. Instead, it's removing traits, removing things that we don't need because we have this guy and here's how he compliments. And we can play him earlier because the things Aaron Donald does so well, um, we're not asking that guy to do the same thing. We're asking Aaron to do 10 things well. We're asking Greg Gaines to do two things well. And between that, you have a hell of a defensive line. And then, you know, that works in a ripple effect, everybody else. Jalen Ramsey, same thing. You ask Jalen Ramsey to do so

many things well. And other guys only have to do one or two things well. You're only looking for one or two, you know, corners who can tackle this year up for debate, right? But, you know, it's a small group. Yeah, you're looking for a lot of different things. Because, again, they're being creative with Jalen Ramsey. They're doing different things in that. guard. So you're picking fourth, fifth, sixth round corners or undrafted free agents. You're only asking him to be able to do one or two things well while Jalen does, you know, 15, 16 things well. And in that way, they've sort of overhauled not just the way that they build, but how they support the build with that undercurrent of players selected in that way by like maximizing how they are efficient in their selection

and removing not just biases have written a lot about this year, how they remove biases from their scouting process, but also removing traits that they know are extra. And so in that way, everything becomes very efficient. It's funny because the great gains part of this, it becomes even more essential because of an injury to Sebastian Joseph Day. And just all of those things and how it all fits together. I mean, just the way that it's worked for them is remarkable. So on defense specifically, you know, obviously we spilled so much ink and wasted, not wasted,

but used up a ton of oxygen talking about what their defense was last year and how important it was even to trading for Matthew Stafford. Maybe it doesn't even happen if the Brandon Staley kind of thing doesn't take hold in the league. Yeah, if you don't have a real tough wake-up call in training camp. It's so funny that like Sean McVeigh is defensive coordinator for Sean McVey to get a different quarterback. It's like a real thing, which is crazy. But so Rahim Morris takes over. And if you look at the scheme, I think there were so many questions coming into the year of,

well, what would it be different? How would it be different? And it's not really. You know, it's almost more, not conservative, but. they're blitzing less on third down than they did before. They're playing pretty much the same amount of like man in zone coverage. They've really taken that model and that overall idea, a set of ideas that they had last year and tried to replicate it.

And it's worked. And I didn't know what it would look like, but they've really just kind of kept a hand on the wheel on that side of the ball. And it's been really important. Yeah. And I think an important part of that was they knew what Brandon's like two, three year plan was. And Sean got so...

Interesting. Say more about that. Yeah. Well, I mean, when you're in a building and you're, and you're looking for a job and you're trying to figure out how your personnel is going to develop two, three years down the route. Brandon's not in the building coaching like he's going to just leave after a year. He's coaching for the long term. That's just who he is.

You know that. And, you know, so you're describing not just what the defense is, but how. Where it has to go. How the evolution is. Because, again, these are two guys with Brandon and Sean. And also Rahim, too. These are guys who have seen league cycles and who are obsessive about the way things evolve and change. Sean McVeigh is, I think, became newly even obsessed with it after the last time the Rams

were in the Super Bowl because he understood in a really brutal way what happens when you don't change fast enough. And so that's what he was attracted to in bringing Brandon and not just the defensive system that he so coveted and was like frothing at the mouth to bring into his building, but also, you know, where it could go, what happens next? That's the sort of two sides of the brain that I think he has grown in as a coach in terms of what that is and how that is necessary to, like, sustaining a career in this league at this point. So, you know, you're looking at what Jalen Ramsey does. It's a really good

example because they dabbled a little bit with Jalen at the star, particularly late in the year, last year, depending on the matchup. But they evolved that position even further under Rahim Morris in part because Rahim is such a great defensive backs coach. He has a great background. He understands what the old versions of the nickel player are from his experience in Tampa. Ronde Barber. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. But he also knows and sees, especially with Jalen and his personality, like where this can go. And you're looking at that and you're like, okay, that's new-ish, but it also is an evolution of, it's carrying it forward of what it was supposed to be because these conversations are happening across the room all throughout the way that they were. Because they retain guys like

Jonathan Cooley and Igero Evereaux. Congrats to Jero by the. the way, that's going to be fun to watch. Is that done? Denver Broncos. Oh, that's awesome. I mean, the least surprising thing in the world. I know. It's going to be... The fact of the best man in his wedding. I know. I was like, if it didn't work out, I'd be concerned about their relationship. Yeah. It's one of those things that in a different situation, I think you'd be more skeptical about it, but he's absolutely deserving of that job. Sure. Like, you don't, so a lot of times you don't like to see guys hire their friends because you're like, how great he hired his friend. In this case, it kicks ass. He deserves that. He deserves that

gig. It kicks so much ass. I want to talk about the coaching staff a little bit because some we've talked about it all the time, right? Like the friends of Sean McVeigh is a great way to get hired, and that's true. You look at all the guys that have left. Shane Waldron left this off season. They lost not only Brandon Saley last year, but Aubrey Pleasant goes to Detroit. He's now a candidate for defensive coordinator jobs, not surprising at all. Right.

So even little things like moving on from Eric Cromer last season and bringing him Kevin Carberry as their offensive line coach, this stuff has mattered. Like the way their offensive line has played this year, the past protection side of this, When you're playing an empty and averaging like 9.3 air yards per attempt, the chips are nice. But you need to hold up. That offensive line has played great. The way that their secondary has continued to play, even with all the changeover in the coaching staff. The fact that Shane Waldron was Sean's right-hand man for years, right?

And now Kevin O'Connell comes in and now he's going to be gone. How do they endure that attrition on the staff and kind of maintain the same sort of environment as they lose all of those guys? Yeah, it's one of the first things I learned coming into the building and talking with different executives and people who okay these hires, right, is the same statement made over and over. Sean McVey is really good at finding talented coaches. He really is. And, like, I mean, it's kind of clear. Like you see, I mean, I will say too, and I think it is very fair to criticize him on the offensive side. He needs to, I think, diversify his hiring efforts, particularly on the offensive side.

And he has a responsibility to do that. I agree. Because these guys are getting promotions. they're getting attention, that owners want the system, and they want these guys who are in the room planning these games. And so he has a huge responsibility that I do think he is becoming more aware of. It's not an excuse that it's too late or it's been late in the process, but I do think he has become more aware, maybe more self-aware,

is a good word to use there too, of how important it is when you have, you know, that sort of power that he's realized now that he has people want his offensive coaches, what that means and what you need to do in order to not only find and make sure you're hiring the best people and casting a wider net than, again, just your friends and just the guys you worked with in other places, but also finding the best person for the job. So first and foremost, I want to say that. It's really important because when you look at that, we talk about it in these kind of casual terms and natural terms where it's like, oh, they want the Shanahan offense or they want the McVeigh offense.

And then you think about what the group of coaches that are part of that offense looks like and how that's part of the problem. And I think taking a step back and re-evaluating the way that we have that conversation is important. Yeah. And he addressed, I asked him about it last week in one of his press conferences. And you see it on his face, you know, that real is, again, it is not happening fast enough, in my opinion, in terms of him affecting change in that way. But he is going to do it on his own time or he's not going to do it at all. That is his decision that he is going to have to make and reckon with.

So in terms of, you know, how he has found talent, I think Kevin Carberry is a good example. Because when he comes in... He's offensive line coach, by the way. Yeah, excuse me. Yeah, offensive line coach. I should have been better about that. And he's kind of a psychopath in a good way. Oh, he's an interesting guy.

Yeah. He, like, pounds, like, what is it, gnaz? Nas and he'll, like, he'll chug a can behind the shed, like, before practice and then come out and do gas. I'm like, throw. That concerns me. Like, yeah, are you? Yeah. With all of these people on this team, I'm like, I'm like, he'll be.

like, are you okay, though? That's kind of where I'm at with this team. So he comes from Stanford, and you think like... They work together in Washington, so that's where their connection was. That's where their connection is, but he's most recently been in Stanford. And so you think, oh, you know, Stanford, like, yeah, you know, offensive line and their, you know, get power and, you know, all this stuff. And you think, okay, well, how does that really line up?

And you've seen Sean's offensive line plan in his run game shift, obviously, and gotten more versatile, I think, and more nuanced. But at the same time, it... seemed like a weird, you're like, did you, you know, did you hire him because you both work for, account him? Like, what, what's the... It made sense to me in the moment, because as they were trying to diversify the amount of runs they were using, I could understand wanting someone that has a more varied background

and running more gap schemes, running, just because it's a natural evolution. But what I was going to say is that I think they wanted the fact that he's looking at a lot of things that are happening in college right now. Sure. And so when you talk about varying your run game, like, that is a big part of it. you want someone who not just what he's running, but what he's countering, you know, watching on film from other guys, what he's seeing in terms of some of the trickle up concepts that are happening, I think, at a faster rate than ever before.

And that's why I think, you know, Sean, it kind of seems like Sean McVeigh is like, all right, Liam Cohen, go spend a year in college, learn a lot, and then come on back. You know, it kind of feels like that's the way these things are trending. Because I think he's trying to use the hires that he makes, back to my original point. I think he's using the hires that he makes to not just bring in guys who he thinks can develop. And that's such a huge part of the balance of their ecosystem, but also guys who he can pull information from. Guys who have an experience with what's next and what might be next. And if it's not next, fine.

You still kind of file it away. And I think that's where some of his obsessiveness comes in with the hiring process and how involved and invested in. And really, I think he gets a kick out of it every year because he knows he's losing guys. So I think he really is almost like it's an interesting sort of investment that he makes, not just in, yeah, I think you could come coach and I know you kind of and all this stuff. I think it's more like, what can I pull from you and use it to sort of fiddle with some things that I've got going on here. So let's talk about just the path of this season because obviously at the beginning it's like, holy shit. We watch the offense and it just feels like I've seen God, like this is it. And then it wasn't that way all the way through.

There are moments in this season where I felt like all hope was kind of lost. What would you say was the low point where it seemed like where we're sitting right now was probably a year away, probably wasn't going to happen? Yeah, honestly, it was that stretch in November. I wouldn't pinpoint it maybe to like one game. There were, you know, there were times when they were. The Monday night loss was like, it felt. The 49ers one, that was really bad. But I think part of it was like you don't almost isolate that because you know that every time it's a divisional game, you're like NFC West.

Like, come on. But I think it was that span, that three-game stretch, where they looked totally lost. Matthew Stafford was turning the ball over. He was, like, super darkly chaotic Matthew Stafford. And their defense was in a tough spot for a lot of that. And then also, then they were kind of getting punished by teams who kind of took what Tennessee did, you know, in terms of the early turnovers and then going ball control on the other side. Those teams could, at that time, were able and ready to punish the Rams for turning the ball over in that way.

and that's when you started hearing about how they were soft and how they had a lack of resilience and all of this stuff. And at the same time, internally, they've just added Von Miller and they're onboarding him into their system. They've just added Odell Beckham. They're onboarding him in their system. They've just lost Sebastian Joseph Day, one of their best, if not their best, run defender.

He has my heart. I know we always exclude Aaron from this list because he's just the best at everything. But so non-eran players, Sebastian Joseph Day is like non-eran category, right? You're on the world's foremost Sebastian Joseph Day podcast. Yes. Yeah, I know, and I love it. It's like Sebastian Joseph Day and Greg Gaines. That's, I'm into it.

And then they lose Robert Woods. And Robert Woods is the heartbeat, one of the heartbeats of this team. And he unlocks so many layers of what they do in their offense, not just in the past game, but also in the run game and in some of the things that they sell, some of the concepts that they layer in the passing game and in the run game. And it was so, and he's such a good person. and you just felt for him and like Cooper Cups at the podium and he's fighting back tears, talking about his best friend.

And you think to yourself, there's so many crazy happy things happening in this moment, von Miller, O'Dell Beckham. And then the bottom has dropped out in many other ways. And so I think writing themselves from that dizzying experience emotionally. How did that happen? What do you think was the most important part of that process? Well, honestly, they went real fundamental. They tightened everything up on their offensive line.

They went heavy personnel and they ran the ball behind Sony Michelle. You thought they'd come out of the by week better than they did. And they didn't against Green Bay. And it wasn't until the following week when December begins and they revamp their run game because they didn't really have a run game behind Darrell Henderson. It was very poor. It was volatile, right? It was like...

It was just, it was poor. It was not explosive. He was falling backwards when he was getting hit instead of flying forwards. and they just, they weren't getting any sort of, any sort of leverage or any sort of push. He was sort of hesitant in finding space to run. And, you know, the offensive line was getting criticized at that time for not being physical enough. And a lot of things were happening. And so they lacked that depth.

And they were turning the ball over. So between those two things, they lacked a lot of cohesiveness. And then Sean McFay started going heavier personnel sets. And then running the ball behind a heavier sort of personnel adjacent back in Sony Michelle. And they... It's steadier. I guess to say how I would describe it. They reintroduced the heartbeat.

They lost one in Robert Woods, and they had to figure out how to reintroduce another one, and that is how they did it. And that was, they obviously didn't use that methodology every game. They used it a couple times. That game was an establishment of we're getting our rhythm back, our heartbeat that we're looking around, sort of fumbling around, trying to, no pun intended,

trying to find it, this is how we get it back. This is how we find ourselves, again, and sort of clear the fog. And then they went on this run. in December and they started putting it together. Guys who are new started finding their way in the defense and on the offense. You know, Odell Beckham is like, what, seven touchdowns and nine games. And you're sitting there and you're like, okay, they're starting to figure this out.

They're starting to find themselves. And then they're buoyed by the fact that Cam Acres is about to return. And they see it. And he's back working on the side during practice. And they're like, holy shit, this guy, Tours Achilles six months ago. And that's a, I'm going to plug my story over. at the athletic. You absolutely should read it. Yeah, behind the scenes of that surgery and the recovery, it's insane. And like, because

there was so much going on, that's the only reason why he's not getting more phone calls about like, how the hell did you do this? But, you know, you're starting to see these glimmers in these flashes. And then Odell Beckham and Von Miller, they become emotional leaders, not just additions. They buy into what's happening around them. And they start balancing things out in certain ways. Young players really, really took shine to Odell and he took them under his arm. You know, Von Miller is very, very vocal, but also very, very positive and very energetic. It also feels like he can talk to Aaron in a way no one else would be able to, right?

He can because he's been there. Aaron Donald has accomplished everything except winning a Super Bowl. Von Miller, obviously, his experience, Super Bowl MVP in 15. And he also has a way where he can communicate very specifically that lifts you. And they've got a lot of guys who are great leader. great communicators on that defense, but not someone who connects the thread all together. And, you know, Jordan Fuller, sometimes that guy, sometimes it's Jalen, sometimes it's, you know, Ernest Jones even as a rookie.

But someone who is always that guy, someone who is always like, hey, I'm going to be in your face and talking you up if you hang your head a little bit down. I'm going to tell you what it feels like to hold the Lombardi trophy in your hands and cradle it. Like, I'm going to tell you how your life changes if you make it to sort of like pass that final layer if you meet the final boss essentially right and like it's it's just um that has buoyed them in so many ways and i think on the other side odell lending kind of like an like a positive like edge like um i'm gonna pull down this pass in front of your face you know and cooper cup like you don't really think of like he you start seeing it coming out of him like that third down conversion

where he actually celebrates after the third down conversion from perhaps the first time in his life You see those edges starting to be found, and I think it boys everybody. And I think that's where they started to find themselves was when they had all sorts of change. And again, that's a risky thing to do. It goes back to the Rams themselves. Such a risky thing to do in a season like that to add not just one catalyst, but two catalysts at almost the same time. Monster personalities.

Just huge, yeah. There's a level of uncertainty when you introduce that sort of factor into your locker room. But they're not afraid of that. No, they aren't. I think it's a huge Sean thing. I mean, obviously, like, just because he's such a, him being at the center of everything is such a huge part of what dictates this. Same as any offensive coach or any head coach that has, like, that sort of aura about him, right?

Like, the Saints are like that. When Sean Payton was like that, they were unafraid to add anyone because they were so comfortable and how rock-solid everything was there. So we're talking about things that are different with this team. Obviously, the Matthew Stafford part of this. Cooper Cup was a very good player for several years. Cooper Cup was not a, the best, most. valuable non-quarterback in the league.

You didn't see the triple crown coming? Like the rest, like, oh my God, right? So I want, what is the most important aspect of how that step happened, I guess, is how I would frame it? Yeah, being healthy, first of all, I think was really important. And sustaining health after a pretty gnarly knee situation last year, sustaining that into the health into the off season and then moving forward into the training period. I think part of it too was the deep, not autonomy, but like the creativity and the

empowerment that he also had in evolving this offense. It's him, Sean McVeigh, Matthew Stafford, Robert Woods, before Robert got hurt. It's those for Kevin O'Connell, Thomas Brown, like the brain trust, like they are moving this forward. And it's not often you see players collaborating in an evolution in that regard, schematically design, bouncing ideas off of each other. Cooper Cup has his own office at the Rams facilities. Like, they are in this. They're in this together, like, as a group. They have pushed this thing forward.

But also Cooper on his own in the office season, he, like, built a lab, essentially, in Oregon. And he started blending sort of the scientific approach with the physical approach that he knows and training a little bit differently. Studying leverage is a little bit differently. Studying how bodies fall, how bodies move, how bodies in motion react to other bodies in motion. what kinds of ripple effects those types of things have and then applying it directly to what he's doing on the field.

And, you know, marking every data point. And he very much, he became sort of, again, are these guys okay? Concerningly obsessed. If he hadn't found football, I would be worried about the guy. But, you know, this matches, again, it matches that level of obsession that I think permeates through that building. Sean McBaeh certainly wears it out on his sleeve, but less need as well. And Kevin Demoff and all these people who are in their scouting. and then their analytics department who are obsessed with finding these small leverages and these

small margins, the plus 0.25s that build and build and build. And I think the culmination of that between that his work that he did and that obsessiveness. And then also, you know, the health was a factor, but then also being empowered in helping to build this offense with a couple of players, not just with coaches, not just being told, hey, we're going to do this. Can you run this? but having that, you hear all the time about the creativity, these guys have, like Robert and Cooper specifically have, when they're running their routes. You hear about they're basically, they can get open however they want, essentially.

I think that all those option routes on third down in that exchange game, all of them. Once they are at that status, that level, because you know, you're not seeing some of the younger guys do that, but those two specifically, once you're at that level of involvement in investment and you can have that creativity, well, the coaching staff and Sean and Matthew are like, well, how can we use that creativity and how you see things, and continue to build it as we push this thing forward. So I think between all of those factors,

and especially the empowerment of building something in that regard, that has made such a difference in going from a, yeah, terrible, you know, thousand-yard receiver, oh, no, you know, but then also moving from an A-plus to like an A-plus-plus-plus-plus. The last thing I'll ask you here, because we talked about a lot of like the unsung guys that think of it important in this. What do you think this would mean for Sean McVeigh to win this game? I think he exhales and unclenches, man.

I mean, I really, like, it's been fascinating studying him over the last two years. I did not cover their last Super Bowl run. I mean, actually, ironically, I was technically there watching it as an outside media cover, like how all these people do, like everyone does every year, but watching it from outside the fishbow, right? Watching from inside how it is how deeply the self-scout went. and trying to find ways not just to build argument into his system, but also rest into his system where he was maybe joining the league, joining the head coaching circles at an all-out sprint before.

It's still an all-out sprint, but he takes water breaks sometimes now. And so I think those things are a huge factor in sort of how he's sort of started to find himself a little bit more. I think also finding new things. I think that is part of where his obsession with that comes from. I think it comes full circle for him with knowing what it feels like to not have the answer. And I think that not only drove who he's grown into as a head coach,

I still nitpick him for the fourth down stuff. I still nitpick him for some of the decisions he makes. And obviously, you know, there is criticism to be had for some of the hiring. But also some of the ways that he's forced himself to find answers and broaden people who can teach him instead of having to be the guy or feeling like he has to be the guy who can rattle off all the answers at once. There's a common question I've been asking guys through this last final postseason push is, what does it like to argue with Sean McVeigh?

And it's funny that, you know, their faces all light up. This dude gets some, when he's mad, you know it. When he's, it's because he's competitive. He's out there trying to throw the football in the donut rings next to Aaron Donald, like betting, you know, and there's big, big time bets on the line for all of that. And like it's, it's funny to see how competitive he gets. But it's always now, I think, with a purpose. It's not just to be right.

It's defined why you're right. And I think that changes slowly. When you force it to try to be very, very quickly, like I think they were back in 1718. And when you all of a sudden realize you don't have the answers and you can't find them immediately, I think that is a unlearning and relearning process that you have to do, not just about where you're at schematically and as a system. and as an ecosystem, but also as a person. And I think that part of the process he has embraced,

and that's kind of how I see him being different. And I think being a lot more settled within himself as he heads into this, knowing that there are probably answers he won't have. But understanding that now he's better equipped to try to solve them in real time. I love that a man in his mid-30s can grow and change and better himself. I know. Providing a roadmap for all of us here. It gives me hope for the guys out there, right?

I feel much better about what the next three years in my life. might look like. Jordan, you cover this team like nobody else. I really, really, really appreciate you taking the time to do this. It's so good to chat with you. It's so good to chat with you in person. And we'll see you the rest of the week. Thanks so much, Robert. All right, guys, that's all we have for today. Thank you so much to Paul. Thank you so much to Jordan for taking the time out to chat with me. Please go check out all of the work that they're doing. Jordan mentioned her piece about Cam Acres. You should go check out that. She wrote a deep feature about Cooper Cup and just everything that he did this offseason. You should

go read Paul's story about the Bengals scouting staff and just the way that they're set up. Again, just knowledge about these teams and every aspect of them that you cannot get anywhere else. Theathletic.com slash football show if you're not subscribed. If you can also do me a favor, go rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. That would mean a lot to me. We will be back tomorrow, Friday. It's preview time, baby. We're here.

We're two days before the game. Nate and I are going to dig into every aspect of the Super Bowl. We're also going to talk with Sheel about picks, some prop bets. So please come back and check that out. Sincerely appreciate it. For now, we'll talk to you guys later. This was The Athletic Football Show.