The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Jalen Hurts, Kyle Shanahan and the other NFL people with the most at stake in 2022

Episode Date: August 4, 2022

Lindsay Jones sits down with Robert Mays—at her house!—to highlight the players and coaches, plus one executive, they believe have the most to gain or lose this season. Jalen Hurts, Tyreek Hill, Kirk Cousins, Kyle Shanahan and plenty more make their lists. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Today's Thursday, August 4th. I'm Robert Mays. A little bit later on the show today, Lindsay Jones is going to be joining us. We're going to talk about the people in the NFL that we feel have the most to lose and gain in 2022. So good to talk to Lindsay again. We actually got to sit down in person at her house outside of Denver.

Really enjoyed that conversation. Really excited for you guys to hear. it. Before we get to that, though, I wanted to talk about the latest in the Deshawn Watson case. Before we started recording today, news came down that the league has appealed the six-game suspension that Judge Sewell Robinson handed down earlier this week. According to multiple sources, the NFL is asking for an indefinite suspension with potential reinstatement after one year. And depending on the length of that suspension, there's also some sort of monetary fine and counseling potentially involved. following the initial ruling on Monday, this always felt like a possibility. The league made it well known in the weeks leading up to Robinson's decision that it wanted

a suspension of at least the entire season. In Robinson's report that accompanied the ruling on Monday, she said that Watson's behavior was predatory and egregious and might deserve a harsher punishment than the one she was able to give based on the language of the league's own policy and the precedence set in previous cases. And the way that I read that presentation of the ruling, it seemed like a good. it left the door open for the league to step in and potentially dole out a harsher punishment, the sort of punishment it wanted this entire time, without undercutting Robinson or that

third-party process that they had put in place in the new CBA. So like we discussed on Monday show with Jenny Varentis, it certainly felt like the league could see a six-game suspension and lost salary totaling about 350 grand all-in as too lenient of a punishment based on everything we know. despite what the Brown statement has said earlier this week, Watson has shown no remorse whatsoever during this process. And it seems like that lack of contrition and the unprecedented nature of this case has motivated the league to step in, which they're empowered to do based on the terms that they negotiated in the CBA. So the NFLPA now has until the end of the day on Friday to respond. And it's possible that certain steps from here could result in a lawsuit, the process dragging out over the next few months.

and Watson even seeing the field early in the season. We're going to save any conversation for that until later in the week after we get a response from the PA. For now, this is an ongoing story, and if you'd like to learn more about what's happening in the process, I'd encourage you to head over to The Athletic or listen to our Browns podcast, Civilized Barking, where Zach Jackson has more analysis on the latest news. Also, one more note before we get to Lindsay. We recorded with her on Tuesday, and that was before the news about the Dolphins' tampering punishment had been announced and they lost their 2023 first round pick.

So when you're listening to the segment about Tua and the dolphins owning two first round picks next year, just keep that in mind. With that, let's get to our conversation with Lindsay Jones. I am very happy to say that I am sitting right next to an old friend, the ringers, which makes me so happy or so sad to say, Lindsay Jones. Lindsay, how are you? I am great. Welcome to my house.

I am at your house. We are just outside of Denver, Colorado, about 15 minutes from the Broncos. facility we're sitting on your front porch it's tranquil and idyllic and beautiful and a great way to start my morning well it's lovely to have you here you got to meet um internet superstar lena yes this morning yes uh before we started podcasting and the dogs it was a great morning yeah we fair warning for our fair listeners here we will probably have some dog interruptions at some point but um i'm just yeah it's it's lovely to see you and to do this and uh can't wait i'm really excited about it. We're going to do a show today that we did last year, and I think this is a good time of the

year to do it. We're going to talk about the people in the NFL as we really get going with training camp here that have the most at stake in the NFL, the most to gain, the most to lose. We're talking about some coaches, some players, some executives, people all across the board. I want you to start us all. Who is the first person that came to mind when you were doing this exercise? At the very top of my list is Kyle Shanahan. It's a great one. It's not one that I would think of, but it's a really good one. And I think he can fall kind of into both categories where we were talking before the show as we were planning, kind of framing it as people who have either the most to lose or the most to gain.

And I think he very squarely falls into both of those buckets when we're looking at what the stories of this season are going to be. I mean, I think Trey Lance that it's not even an experiment now because it is just the plan. It's who they are. So there is so much. on the line for Kyle Shanahan here because this was his move. I mean, this massive move that they made last year, you know, they were already a good team. They were a couple plays away from potentially going to the Super Bowl last year, which is just wild to think about when you kind of go back through all of the sequence of events that happened

last, I guess, January, February, where however, exactly that NFC championship game played out. But, you know, none of us know when I listened to your show with Bill Barnwell last week and you You guys talked a lot about Tray Lance and the various outcomes, you know, all of the things from, you know, him being awesome to him being terrible or getting hurt and not having a backup plan. Just that's what's so interesting about this is that none of us really know, but Kyle Shanahan has staked so much of his professional life now on this working out. And this is a year where it's not just a quarterback change in San Francisco. And I'm guessing this is something you probably looked into and talked about it with Matt. It was wild being there yesterday. It's just massive amounts of change all at once.

Every offensive position coach is different. It's bonkers. Every single one. And there's some like very interesting moves that were there too. I mean, the thing about Kyle Shanahan and his father before is that they've had so much consistency on their staff. Gary Kubiak was his office coordinator for 15 years. Yes.

And you know, in some of these guys, Bobby Turner has been a member of the Shanahan coaching family forever. He's not there. Wes Walker had been, you know, around the Shanahan's for a really long time. And just you're pulling all of these kind of individual pieces out and you're bringing in new guys who do have a lot of Shanahan connections. You're bringing in Brian Greasy, who's never coached before, but obviously has really deep long connections to both Kyle and especially to Mike Shanahan. You're bringing in Anthony Lynn, who played for Mike Shanahan here in Denver back in the kind of the Super Bowl era, you know, the 90s. But they're all new to Kyle Shanahan's staff.

So there is so much riding on this working. And I don't think this is like they have to go to the playoffs, win a Super Bowl, NFC championship caliber, like kind of that level that has to happen this year. But this is something that has to be trending in the right direction. And we have to see that this was the right call, that Trey Lance was the right guy. And that, you know, Kyle Shanahan with all of these moving pieces can kind of elevate himself from where he's at right now, which is, I think the consensus is he's one of the very best play callers and scheme designers in the NFL. And if he can turn Trey Lance quickly within

a year or two into one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL, I think he'll be, he'll move into that stratosphere as one of the best overall coaches, you know, leaders, player development, all of that sort of stuff. And if it doesn't work, I don't really know where the Niners go because they've just pushed everything in on this working. This is their big move. I had a conversation with Kyle. You's check yesterday and we were talking about just the lines of communication as it relates to the offense there. He and I shodd a couple years ago about this.

Early in the week, Kyle really wasn't involved in a lot of the install meetings. Some offensive head coaches delineate a lot of that stuff. Some of them take it on themselves. Andy Reid famously now in Kansas City handles a lot of that himself. And the mics, McDaniel and LaFleur, would do a lot of that early in the week. And Kyle would kind of come in a little bit later on. And the setup is the same now with Chris Forster as the run game coordinator, who is their offensive line coach, and Bobby Sloick, who's now their passing game coordinator.

So the setup is similar. But one of the things he said to me that I thought was really interesting is that Yuszek said that with McDaniel, it was always an open dialogue, open line of communication. He could go to him with ideas, really whenever. And that's something they're going to have to hone. But the tone of what it's like in the building is similar, is very, very similar. Just kind of the way that they communicate with each other, all that kind of stuff.

So I think that they're trying to foster a similar feeling in the ways that even if there's a lot of staff turnover, the way that we approach this is similar. So we'll see how that works out. I mean, the mark of a really successful franchise is, can you endure this kind of stuff? And if you go about four and a half hour south on I-5, you'll get to Los Angeles where they've done a fantastic job of enduring this sort of turnover. and now because the league is coming for this type of offense, we've seen that type of turnover in San Francisco and we're seeing it in Green Bay. And now it remains to be seen. Can those teams handle it as well as Sean McBay has in L.A.?

And it's a big question. And I'm really curious. I listened to your discussion with Jordan last week about this. It was really, really, really interesting. She's just so plugged in there and just has such a really smart view on looking at football and team building and all that stuff. And one of the things that has struck me about Sean McBay, and I put this in when we went our 40 under 40 earlier this summer, is that he does have this massive turnover, but he tends to look kind of in interesting places to build to staff. He wants, like, it's almost purposeful that he wants to bring in new ideas and people that were not necessarily part of his tree or the tree where he started from.

Kyle Shanahan isn't doing that. Well, Brian Greasy is that, though, right? But yeah, but he's like, he very much is bringing in people that he's like very familiar with. That's fair. That's fair. And that are like kind of very much already in his circle. You know, Brian Greasy is a really interesting and unorthodox choice. I have a lot of thoughts there that I think we could get into at another time. You know, just that he's never coached before. And who knows? That might be exactly what Tray Lance needs. It could not be. We have no idea. But even like, you know, Bobby Sloick. Bob Sloick was a long time like Shanahan assistant. So there's almost no spot on the Kyle Shanahan coaching roster where there's just like some out of left field. Like almost everybody has some sort of direct connection.

And, you know, that tells me a lot about Kyle Shanahan and like trust and loyalty and like who he feels comfortable with. But I do wonder if at some point he's going to need to do what Sean McVe is doing and bring an influx of just like new ideas into the room. Yeah. I think it's totally fair point. All right. I'm lumping my first two together here. cheating a little bit. I'm going with Tuah talking about low end Jalen Hertz. I think they're in really similar positions. You look at the big wide receiver trades that both of those teams made. Also not an

accident. Both of their teams have two first round picks next year. They are positioned, if necessary, to go find a new quarterback. But these guys are also positioned on teams that I think have pretty decent supporting cast, especially in Philadelphia. I think that's a complete offensive roster are top to bottom in Miami. They're a lot better than they were a year ago. This is the time. This is it. You have to show your decision makers in both of those places that you're worth

committing to moving forward, that you deserve at least one more year to show that let me play this out. I will show you enough for the end of the 2022 season that justifies you bringing me back as your unquestioned starter next year. Because if either of these guys fall short of whatever. expectations, the team has kind of heaped on them by giving them all this help, I don't think either franchise would think twice about looking for a quarterback upgrade. In Miami, they're not committed to him. Mike McDaniel has no ties to Tua, even if Chris Greer is still there. And in Philadelphia,

I think that there's a reason Howie Roseman has given himself these trap doors consistently as it relates to assets and the outlook moving forward. So when you look at those two situation. It's so interesting because those two guys are just always going to be tied together. Yeah. Because of Alabama and just everything happens. Yeah. It's so true. And even the draft year. I mean, so many different things there. So they're always going to be linked. But when you look at those two situations, and I actually have, I want to get into Miami a little bit more with one of my choices here moving forward. But which of these two guys do you think is better set up to succeed right now in terms of the offense that's around them, the skill position players, the coaching staff? If you have, if you

had to pick one of those guys to say is most likely or you feel most confident that is going to be the starting quarterback for his team in 2023. So those are two different questions. I think that Jalen Hertz is set up better. And it's for this reason. The offensive line is there are no questions about it. Even with Toronto Armstead there and Connor Williams and some of the shuffling, there are huge question marks on Miami's offensive line and some projections associated with that.

That's not happening with Eagles offensive line. They are rock solid. And with Mike McDaniel, even if we're optimistic about him, it's still a projection. Yeah. We have no idea. He's never called plays before. No. And when you have these guys that come from situations with very autonomous, offensive head coaches,

where those are the guys really driving the ship, you never really know how it's going to work out. So I think that we've seen it a little bit more with Philadelphia, even if I do think that the best version of the dolphins looks pretty darn good. But I also think that it's again, it's a, when you look back at investment, the Dolphins spent a top five pick on Tua, the Eagles draft of Jalen Hertz in the second round. That stuff tends to linger. So I think that Jalen Hertz is in a better situation, even if I think there's a better chance to as the starting quarterback for the Dolphins next year, if that makes sense. Yeah, I mean, the Tua being the first round pick, for some reason, it just like has, it doesn't seem to have stuck on him as much as some of the other guys. I think he is going to get longer time.

but like literally since the moment he arrived because he arrived, I think, with the injury and we didn't really know exactly what his timeline was going to look like. And there was some good Ryan Fitzpat, Fitzpatrick Magic. It was a weird start to his career. There's no other way. Pulling him. It was just that relief pitcher type of setup that he's just never seemed to have gotten like the full first round pick treatment there.

There just have always been these doubts about like if he can do it. So I'm super curious. So should we just lead into the guy? that I have next time on my list. Let it rip. Let's go. All right. Let's just go right into Miami. I'm putting Tyree Kill there. I think it's fair.

I was thinking about this in the car when you mentioned that you were going to have him. And obviously, he's already gotten paid. So that, like, he's gotten that. But I think in terms of reputation, there is a lot to be gain or loss with Tyree Kill. I think he's a guy who very clearly cares about the reputation part of it. He's in the media now, man. He is putting himself out there to be there. I mean, this has been the defining story of this past year and certainly this offseason

has been the receiver market, the explosion of that market. And then kind of a little bit of maybe not reshuffling, but just this very clear definition of the top tier of wide receivers. Yes. The pecking order, I think, is up for debate right now. It's definitely in flux. And I think this season will go a long way determining that. Yeah, because they're all so different.

Every, you know, A.J. Brown is such a different player than Tyree Kill, who's a different player than Debo Samuel, the most recent guy who got paid. You know, they're all so different, but they all are so integral to what their team. do. And, you know, Tyreek has really put himself out there by, you know, when the contracts talks broke down very quickly in Kansas City. I mean, that was one of the wildest days of what was a really weird offseason where it went from, you know, Tyreek Hill contract negotiations in Kansas City to has requested a trade permission to seek trade to he's gone within like 12 hours. Yeah, it happened fast. I mean, it was just bonkers. And he, you know, he very much put himself

out there that like he's won a Super Bowl. He's wanted to be paid as the top or one of the very top wide receivers in the league. And I think he wants to do it without Patrick Mahomes. And the fact that he's out there, I don't think, I don't know if he's like fully thought out this process of like what he says about Patrick Mahomes. Not sure that he has. All of that sort of stuff. But like, he was not a guy that we heard a ton from in Kansas City for a lot of reasons. The chiefs did a pretty good job of insulating him and he wasn't super forward facing. And now he is put himself out there to say, I'm going to be the guy. I've gotten paid.

I'm going to be on a podcast. I'm going to do media now. And we'll see. I mean, the dolphins have made such a huge investment for him. And I'm very fascinated. I didn't put any of the chiefs here on my list. I'm very just curious about what their offense. and stuff is going to look like.

But I just wonder, you know, maybe more so than any of those other trades, it's going to be like who is better off moving forward. Can Tyreek be a number one? He's going to be a number one receiver. But like in that very, very elite tier of receivers when he doesn't have Patrick Mahomes. And then on the flip side is what do the chiefs do without this very unique one-of-one same as attackers, right? It's the same exact situation.

where you're trying to figure out and extricate the credit for why these guys have been really, really good over the last four or five years. How much of it is Aaron Rogers? How much of it is Devante Adams being the best receiver in the league? And the same goes for Kansas City. Like if you just drop Tyree Kill into a different situation, what does he look like? Is he still one of the most influential players in football? Like when he's on the field, what he does to defenses, there's really no one like him based on the structure in Kansas City.

is the same thing true in Miami. And we have no idea. So I think that what's at stake for him and what is to be gained or lost is his standing and his reputation for how we talk about him compared to his peers of the position. And his peers on offense, right? You could have made an argument over the last four or five years, I think, that Tyree Kill was as impactful of an offensive player that was a non-quarterback as maybe any in the league.

Is that still going to be true with two? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I still think when defensive coordinator, are planning, you know, are looking, you know, Tyree Kill is at the very top of the list. And it's a pretty short list, honestly, I think of players who make defensive coordinators go, oh, shit. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that's still true. And that is going to be true. But is it going to be as true when you have a quarterback, when you have two, instead of Patrick Mahomes? I still think it'll be true. But I just, I'm just really curious how that entire thing is going to work in Miami, the collection of receivers that they put together.

I mean, it's like all speed. Yeah. It's insane. And then just how Tyree Kill is kind of going to do in this new environment. All right. My next one here, again, I'm cheating. I'm going to list multiple different people. I'm going with kind of the next wave of potential head coaches in the NFL.

And we talked about Rahim Morris and Damiko Ryan's last week when I talked with Nate and Deontay, they're right at the top for me. You know, Rahim Morris, you talk to everybody there. I think you just get the feeling from him. He's ready to be a head coach again. And I think he's in a really good position to try to make that happen. You look at how McVeigh's staff has been picked over over the last few years. Even you talk to him, he feels like a head coach.

He's been in that role before, but he was extremely young. All of the different varied backgrounds that he has and the ways that he's kind of had to look at the league as an offensive coach, as a defensive coach. He feels like somebody that's going to do well in the room if given him, if given the opportunities. D'Amico Ryans is the same way. Kyle Shanahan was talking about him yesterday and just saying that he's, trusts him as much as any coach he's ever worked with. And the reason, the ways that Jamico Ryans makes Kyle a better coach is that he doesn't have to worry about Domeco Ryans. That's the defense. He handles it. And I have complicit trust in his ability to take

care of all of that. And so I think that he's going to be one of those next guys. On offense, we have a big question with Byron Lefwich. Bruce Ariens has gone now. All of those questions about, all right, how much is Bruce and how much is Byron? And who deserves credit for the way the offense looks and the way that it's structured. Stuff that I think is pretty unfair if you listen to Bruce Ariens. He's essentially said Byron ran the offense. But now you remove that. He has total purview over the entire offensive approach, scheme, execution, everything as it relates to that team.

Maybe you can make the Tom Brady argument. But I do think you remove one layer. You remove one layer of complication in terms of who's responsible for that. And the other guy that I had in this list, somebody that I had heard did extremely well. when he interviewed with the Broncos, but maybe was a year away, was Brian Callahan in Cincinnati. Now, you have those young offensive coordinators attached to top five-ish quarterback, somebody that's certainly on the rise, a franchise that's heading on the right trajectory, is he's somebody that, again, I think, will do very well in the rooms and in those conversations

that potentially gets a look after the season end. So that kind of group of those 30-ish early 40s coordinators that are on these teams that we think are going to be really good, those jobs could be waiting for them if things go well well go back the end of June I published the 40 under 40 at the athletic a bunch of those guys were on that list not Raheim Morris

he was too old but Damico Ryan's Brian Callahan were both on that list Byron Lefich too old but they're like 42 right yeah in that rage yeah they're like my peers they're my elder millennial geriatric millennials whatever we're calling ourselves these days but yeah I think it's really interesting

and I say pull back even a little bit made me make it a little bit bigger. I think when we're looking at the next way. He wants this 45. He does not seem like it. He's very energetic. Yes. He's an energetic 45.

Look, I'm not that far away from 45. I hope I'll have some sort of energy like that in a couple of years. But I get just to maybe even pull it bigger and we're talking about the next wave and who are going to be the next head coaches in this league. The NFL owners in this league has a lot at stake this year too. The Brian Flores lawsuit is still ongoing. He is trying to keep that. in court and not in arbitration. And a lot of these guys that we've talked about are overqualified to be head coaches.

Rahim Morris, especially is overqualified to be a head coach in this league. So, you know, I hope that the league, the decision makers are paying attention to the right generation of coaches when they're figuring out who the next head coaches are going to be. A corollary on this. I think those are the guys that have a chance to take a step forward. there, I think there are a couple of coordinators potentially have a chance to take a step back. It doesn't go well for Greg Roman this year, guys like that in Baltimore, what happens?

Those coordinators for whom there are some questions heading into the season. And like John Harbaugh has already been kind of making changes to the lower levels of his offensive staff. I think preparing for at some point we might have to make a change there. He's been bringing in new quarterbacks coaches and assistant quarterbacks coaches and, you know, people who are very tailored for Lamar.

They're not afraid to make a change either. They look at what happened on defense. They have a new defense coordinator this year. They're not afraid to say, you know what? It's pivot time. They've done it a bunch of different times under him. And there's a chance that they get to the end of the season and just say, you know what, this isn't working. We need to try something else if we're going to get the most out of this guy.

I also think Lamar could be on this list, but I just think he's going to get paid. I think he's getting paid no matter what. Yeah. So that's why I just didn't want to throw him on here just because I don't think there's a lot to lose for him in this moment. Yeah. No, I mean, I think he just has a ton to get. I mean, if Baltimore has a bad season, I don't think it's going to be because Lamar falls up a cliff. I agree.

It's going to be because similar to last year where everybody got hurt or there's some sort of bad luck situation. All right, should we move to my next? Let's do it. I'm going to do a Debbie Downey here. So we've already talked about a couple of the young quarterbacks that have a lot to prove. I'm going to go with a quarterback who's kind of been a last chance scenario. And that's Carson Wentz. He's a guy who was, to me, and he's been like the forgotten name.

in the 2022 quarterback carousel and shuffle. I still do not understand why Washington raced a trade for him when they did, given kind of all the other quarterback moves that happened to the rest of the year or the rest of the offseason. But to me, I mean, he feels like a guy that like this is it. Like this is his last chance to be a starting quarterback in this league. And like, sure, he's probably a guy who could do the Mitchell-Tribisky rehab. Is he going to want to do that? Scenario, but I don't know. And I'm also not sure where he's a guy whose reputation is bad right now.

Yes. Where in terms of like a leader, you know, a leader and likability and all that sort of stuff. So if this doesn't work in Washington, which is somewhat of a floundering franchise right now, I just don't know where he would go from here. It's a really good one. It's a really good one. I have one that I think is pretty similar in that the guy who might have his last chance and kind of could define what he is moving forward. It's Baker Mayfield.

It's a really similar spot where these guys are tarnished assets at this point. This may be their last chance to prove that, all right, I'm a starter. Like, I deserve to be a starter somewhere. In Washington, it feels like if it goes well with Carson Wentz, he'll have a chance to maintain that job moving forward. With Baker, he's almost auditioning for his next job. as much as anything. I don't think he'll ever be someone who's in demand again,

but I think Baker has a chance to show by the end of this season, listen, you need a stopgap quarterback, you need somebody to be somebody with a pulse for the next year as you figure out what you're trying to do, somewhat of what Carolina has. I think that's exactly the position that Baker's in right now. So with Carson Wentz, I think it's saving who he is in the minds of the league. But if it goes well, I think he'll be the starter of Washington for multiple years.

With Baker, it's just can I salvage any sort of future I have as a starter in the NFL? So I'll bring back the Tua and Jalen Hertz type of question. Which guy do you have more confidence in in succeeding in that quest? I really don't know. I kind of think Baker, I think Baker might be a better NFL quarterback right now than Carson Wentz. I know the stats on Carson Wentz were good last year. It was an absolute disaster. I, based on the reviews from their previous staffs, I feel better about Baker.

I don't think the Browns were hell-bent on, we have to get rid of Baker-Mayfield. Like, this is, we have to do this, we have to move on, this isn't working anymore. I think that they understood on a football level that Deshawn Watson presented them a level of quarterback that they couldn't get otherwise. With the Colts, they were willing to move on from Carson Wentz with absolutely no contingency plan whatsoever. The answer for them, they kicked him out. I mean, and they kicked him while he was down. The ideal answer for them at quarterback was not Carson Wentz. And I think that that is pretty telling. So based on those reviews from people, both of those organizations, and also just the way that Carson Wentz played at times last year, I think I'd rather

have Baker Mayfield. And I do think that Carolina situation isn't that bad. They have decent weapons there. Their offensive line is potentially hugely improved. And we'll see what happens with Ben McAdoo. But I do think that it's not as bad of a circumstance for Baker and Carolina as it might seem. All right.

Before we move on to like, I guess our last ones, are there any other quarterbacks that are like, okay, you've got another quarterback. I have two very quickly, very quickly. And I wasn't going to include them in my original list, but I do think they matter. And it's, I think, for a similar reason. cousins and Derek Carr, we're both given deals that are essentially a franchise tech. It's like, all right, we're going to kick the canned under road for one more year in order to evaluate what we have here. Both of them have new offensive-centric coaching staffs that I think we're pretty excited about, right?

Like, I'm excited to see what Kevin O'Connell does. I think I'm curious. I'm not sure if excited. I'm curious. That's totally fine. I think Minnesota can be a pretty good offense with her. couple tweaks. And we're going to talk a lot more about them as we move forward here in camp. I had a good visit there before camp started with a couple of their coaches and they had a lot

of interesting things to say about how they're going to use those guys. Can Kirk Cousins show, hey, you know what? I'm never going to be that top five guy, but I can be the eighth best quarterback in the league. Can he be a diet version of what Matthew Stafford got this year? I think that's going to be something to watch. And if he is, does he get more time in Minnesota. And with Derek Carr, can he show that I'm the guy I was last year for the rest of my career? I'm a top 10-ish quarterback.

You're not going to do better than me if you move on. So does Josh McDaniels after a year with Derek Carr say, you know what? This is worth committing to because that's the window. After this year, if they want out, there's a trapdoor that they can climb out of. So can both of those guys show, I'm not just the short-term solution. I am worth being the guy here for the next several years. Well, I'm glad that we were able to get the car continuum. them into a podcast here together. I very much agree on Derek Carr and did a podcast about that last

week, which was kind of what I didn't want to bring him out there too much, but I am very, very interested. And mostly, I mean, the other layer with Derek Carr for me is that, you know, the AFC West is just so interesting when you look at all of the quarterbacks that are in that division and, you know, where does he fall into that? And can, if he has a career year, can he push himself into second or third in the conversation in the, at the AFC West quarterbacks? I don't know if he's going to overtake Justin Herbert in our hearts and our minds. I think he's going to be, his best goal here is to be the third best quarterback in his own division. That's okay.

That's okay. As long as he can cement himself as the answer for the Raiders and a guy that Josh McDaniel says, you know what, this is worth it. This version of who we can be is something that I want to commit to. That's a huge win for Derrick-R. So I almost put Josh McDaniels on this list because, you know, it's been a long time since he was the head coach. and there's been a lot that has happened since his failed tenure in Denver and then what happened in Indianapolis and, you know, getting the second chance to separate from from Bill Belichick. A lot of guys don't get that. You know, you don't get that second head coaching opportunity. But so instead of Josh McDaniels, I have two other assistant coaches. So I'm going to put on my. What's do it? And that's Matt Patricia and Joe Judge, who are in one of the weirdest coaching situations that I can remember.

one of them, I think that Patricia, is going to be calling plays in New England. Joe Judge is also going to be heavily involved in that offense. And I don't know if either of them have, like, I'm just, you know, figuring out what the stakes are, it's just such a weird situation where you come back, you were failed head coaches for a lot of reasons. It didn't work schematically, personality-wise, So now all of a sudden you're doing something that you've never done before. Matt Patricia as offensive coordinator is just wild.

And I think there's a lot at stake for Bill Belichick for making this move. There's just a lot at stake for Matt Patricia of like reestablishing himself or like reinventing himself as a coach. And going to be a play caller. I mean, it's just so wild. It's bizarre. And they've done some of this stuff before. Remember there were years over the last five or six years, even when they were going to Super Bowl. bowls where they didn't have a named defensive coordinator.

Even last year, I don't think they had it technically had a defensive coordinator. And they don't this year by name. But like there's always the through line of like this is Belichick's defense. Of course. That's easier to pin down. Yeah. It's like Matt Patricia. I mean, it's just, it's so bizarre.

I guess what's at stake is that if it goes well, does he reinvent himself as an offensive coach? I mean, that's ultimately, if that's what's on the line, then that's pretty huge. if he can kind of garner that reputation for himself. I want to stick with coaches and this is somebody who I think was on both of ROS. I mean,

Mike McCarthy. One of the first questions he got when camp open, one of the first ones was about his job security. They went to the playoffs last year. That's amazing to me. And he was pissed and I understand why. But he should be surprised. He should not be surprised.

He's had now two full years in Dallas. he I'm sure can read the news and see that Sean Payton is out there lurking and ready to take a head coaching job. I'm sure he knows the history that Sean Payton has been kind of Jerry Jones's. He's way well. He's the mean. He's like laying in bed looking at pictures of Sean Payton. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So just like you do it, Justin Herbert.

That's right. Which is fine. There's no judgment there. So I'm sure Mike McCarthy is aware of this. And if he's, like, insecure about it, well, he better, he better come to terms of it pretty quickly because, you know, Dallas has been disappointing over the last two years during the Mike McCarthy era for a lot of reasons. I think they kind of get a pass in 2020 because of the DAC injury. But they're, offensively, they were very disappointing last season. Especially down the stretch.

Yeah, I mean, this time last year, we were sitting here talking about how the Cowboys should be one of the best offenses in the league and it was going to be nonstop fireworks. and, you know, clear favorite in the NFC East, all those sorts of things. And then they just ended up, you know, a good regular season team that flamed out in the playoffs. And if they have a disappointing season again, and by disappointing, I mean losing in the wild card round to a Jimmy Garoppolo type team, I very much think that that could be at for Mike McCarthy. And it might even get out that get that far. James Washington broke his foot this week. He's going to be out six to ten weeks.

They don't have receiver depth. They have Jalen Tolbert, who's a third round rookie, who's going to be really their best option on the outside right now. That's it. I mean, C.D. Lamb and Jalen Tolbert, and we'll see what happens with the offensive line. I think they have a chance to be pretty good. But it's been a consistent reminder, I think, over the last week or so,

that this team just isn't as deep or as talented as it even was a year ago when they fell short of expectations. So can they navigate through this year where there's been a lot of roster turnover? The talent probably isn't as good and you used to have little tiny things. Jay Ron Kirst got hurt also this week. I don't know what his outlook is,

but he tweaks something. He's making a little bit more money. They've had to piece together the second edge rush or spot because Randy Gregory isn't there. I just think that there are so many questions about that team. And I don't think it takes even flopping or falling flat.

for him to lose his job. If they're 10 and 7 and they lose in the first round of the playoffs or don't even make the playoffs at 9 and 8, it's over. Like it's just over. Sean Payton or whoever is going to end up getting that job. So I think- You've got a perfect interim head coach already in the building in Dan Quinn. Absolutely.

If you needed to, if you needed that jolt. And it does feel like kind of icky to be talking about guys getting fired or potentially getting fired here on August 2nd. But he's the guy that just because of Jerry Jones and just because of the expectations there and the disappointments of the last two seasons. He's the guy who you have to be watching. I mean, I think there's other guys that you would maybe put higher on the hotlet or the hot seat. Matt Rule is probably in that conversation.

And I think that it's almost not even worth talking about because he's so definitively number one on that list. But I think that Mike McCarthy has a ton of least. The dynamics of it, to me, the Mike McCarthy part of it is the most interesting. I totally agree. All right. To round this out, we're going to kind of pay homage to where we're sitting right now. I want to talk about a couple Broncos. For me, somebody on this list, you know, not as high profile as some of the other people

who've talked about. Bradley Chubb. Yeah. Heading into the final year of his rookie deal, played seven games last year, didn't have a single sack was clearly not right. I mean, it was ankle injury that just continued to linger from the summer into the season and played through it. And this now becomes a huge year.

Is he somebody that after being a top five pick can garner some real interest from either the Broncos or someone else when contract time comes? He's been dinged up for a really long. a time. And I think that it almost takes us into a larger conversation about people like George Peyton and the Broncos in general. They've made some big bets this offseason. This is the Broncos team. There's no more feeling out process with the roster and who they want to be. And I think that leaves a lot for him to lose. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, George Payton was a guy that I had on my list here because he has tremendous job security right now for a guy that's coming into a team of

bought to have a new owner. I mean, the Brockwood's ownership, I think, a week from today is officially going to be approved by the other NFL owners. So that could make a lot of people nervous of like, oh, here comes a new owner. But George Payton has a ton of confidence in that building. And all indications that I've been given is that the Walton family, they're very invested in George Payton as well. He's done a good job so far. Yeah, he's done a really good job. But he, it was a really hard thing that he was walking into George Payton, walking into following John Elway, who for all of, you know, John Elway's issues with finding a quarterback, all of those struggles that he had, he was still John Elway.

Yeah. The specter of John Elway looms so large in the city. And, you know, just you're driving around up and down I-25, you're seeing John Elway car dealerships. You know, he's on billboards. He's on local commercials here. Like, he still is, like, the biggest figure in Denver. Peyton Manning's creeping up there and Russell Wilson is getting himself out there for sure.

But, you know, George Payton walked in here a little over a year ago and just said, like, boldly and confidently was like, this is my plan. He made some kind of controversial moves. The Patrick Sartan draft pick was very controversial at the moment. I was certainly critical of it because of the quarterback ramifications at the time. Seems like it's an A plus pick right now. I mean, he's very, I can't wait for you to watch him at camp. You're going to be out there the next couple practices. Oh, I'm so pumped to watch this team.

He's so fun. I'm going to be out there for three days. I'm very, very excited to have an extended stay with a team here for a little bit. Yeah, I mean, one of the things, so I'm not doing a training camp tour this year, but one of my favorite things is when I do those, especially when you go to somewhere for a couple days, you can spend one day being like, I'm really going to focus on quarterbacks today. I'm just going to follow the offense around. You can spend a day saying, I'm just going to watch the defensive back. I watched the right guard for their Niners yesterday for the entire practice. Okay, well, that tracks. Yeah.

That's you. He was a fourth round rookie that I didn't know was starting. I was like, what's the deal with this guy. So that's what I did. We got to get you, we got to get you some help, Robert, but that's fine. That's fair. But like, so today or tomorrow or whatever it is, you know, if you just bring your binoculars, train a couple sessions right on Patrick Zertan, like you will not be disappointed.

But, you know, but Peyton had made, you know, and then the Von Miller trade, that's, to have kind of the guts to do that, to trade away the most powerful player. I mean, you know, he's made these really, really bold moves and then the rest of the Wilson moves. So, you know, I don't think he's a guy that, like, you know, is in any sort of tenuous situation. But if this works, he vaults himself into that best GM in the league. Absolutely.

He doesn't have a ton to lose, but he potentially has a lot to gain when it comes to his standing and the way that we talk about him relative to other GMs in the league. So I totally agree. I mean, I think that this team, again, they made a lot of big bets. And they said this is what we're going to try to do. This is the year we're pushing it into the middle and seeing what happens. And I think that always leaves you with a lot to lose and a lot to gain. That's all I got.

That's all we got. This is very fun. It was really good to see you. I really appreciate you letting me come sit at your house. Yes. You're welcome back in Centennial, Colorado. Anytime on my porch with my child and my dogs and construction trucks that are driving up and done. It's great to be outside, though.

I don't mind it at all. All right. That's all we got. It's great to see you. Lena, you want to say bye to everybody in the podcast? Bye. Do you have a Super Bowl pick? Who's going to win the Super Bowl?

I sing the Broncos. She's a Homer. She's a Homer. She already knows how to cater to. to the fans. All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much to Lindsay. It was so good to see her, so good to sit down and have that chat. We will be back tomorrow. Excited to have a check-in from Broncos camp with our Broncos writer, Nick Cosmiter. Really looking forward to that. In the meantime, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice.

I appreciate you guys did that. Please subscribe to the athletic.com slash football show. I'm writing this week. To read that, you need an athletic subscription. com slash football show now is the time to get one i'm telling you you cannot follow the league without a subscription to the athletic our writers are plugged in and observing this stuff day to day in a way that no one else is highly encourage you guys to go out and do that we'll be back tomorrow in the meantime appreciate you guys listening talk to you soon this was the athletic football show