The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Jets rally to beat Browns, Packers get right against Bears, and more on the Week 2 Monday Hangover

Episode Date: September 20, 2022

You can't debrief everything immediately after a big night. Some things need a day or two to marinate before you can get to them. That's the thinking behind the Monday Hangover, a new weekly episode of The Athletic Football Show. On the debut edition, Robert Mays and Diante Lee dig into the Jets' improbable comeback against the Browns, the Packers' handling of the Bears, the Giants' 2-0 start, and more.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Diante on Twitter: @DianteLeeFBSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome. It's the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Join me today. It's my good friend, DeAte Lee. DeAte, how you doing, buddy? I'm doing well, man.

Doing well. I don't know if people know, but Southern California last week was dealing with like monsoon-like conditions. Like a hurricane basically just missed us off of the Gulf of Mexico. So we have finally cooled down weather-wise and between that and football being in full swing.

Man, I'm feeling good right now. I'm feeling good to have you here. We are trying something new on Mondays on the athletic football show. Every Monday, Deontay is going to be here doing something we're going to call the Monday Hangover. We're going to talk about a handful of games. Notice I'm not saying exactly how many because I don't want to lock myself into a certain number. We're going to talk about a handful of games that we just don't have time to get to on the Sunday night show. We like to go a little bit more in depth on some of these games.

There's no way we can hit all of them. There's no way we can even hit 10 to 12 of them. So on Mondays, we're going to talk about. about a handful that we could not get to with me and Nate last night. Very excited to dig into this with you. And I think people should be as well. All right. Let's kick this off.

I want to start with the Sunday night game from last night. Packers Bears. Deante, there are a lot of different ways we can go with this. I want to start in a place that I still don't really want to start. I don't even really want to start going down this road, but I feel like it's time. I'm worried about Justin Fields. I'm worried about Justin Fields. It's not that it's the numbers.

Obviously, threw for 70 yards last night. 30 of them came on a flea flicker on the first drive. The Bears threw the bowl 11 times. But I'm concerned about the process. I'm concerned about what it's like watching him play the position, some of the details that come along with it. Are you ready to talk me down here or are we going to go down a road that I'm not going to enjoy? Before I rewatched it, I was ready to talk you down. And, you know, use all the same talking points that I think everybody would come

to fall back on, you know, offensive line, supporting cast, play caller, et cetera, et et cetera. And then I turned on the tape. And I was like, oh, wow, like the pocket navigation is a problem, like a capital P problem. And I think that it becomes frustrating. And I understand how you land it where you landed, because it's not like he lacks for arm talent. He can place the ball wherever. It's not like he lacks for, you know, athletic ability. If he wants to tuck and run, he can hurt a defense with that. It just seems like so often the tuck and runs are, man, you could have slid in the pocket or stepped away from pressure and delivered the ball.

And then at times that he does try to squeeze a ball into windows, it's like, maybe you could have extended a little bit differently or checked it down instead of trying to push the ball so much. You know, and they obviously didn't have a lot of opportunities. It felt like almost every other drive for them was a three and out or starting off, you know, deep in their own territory. Yeah, you know, the all 22 film of this was like 21 minutes, which is like not, Something you do not expect to see from an NFL game.

That to me really stood out was the pocket navigation issues for a Packers defense that doesn't even feature one of those top-tier edge rush types. They were just strictly pushing the pocket on him and he had a really difficult time escaping, buying himself time and delivering the ball down the field. And he had a few misses on some vertical shots as well that could have opened the game up for them, I think. Yeah, I mean, the Darnal-Muni Deep one is really one of the only times they let him open up the throttle. and he sailed that thing by about 10 yards. The play that sticks out to me is the play where he got called for the illegal forward pass. Yes.

Packers run a game on the right side. Lucas Patrick actually does a valiant job cleaning it up at the last second to keep his quarterback clean. And there is space in front of him. But rather than slide up in the pocket, which it's a really interesting contrast to what is like to watch Aaron Rogers play.

There was a play early in the game where Rogers finds an opening, slides up, and hits Randall Cox, coming across the field on a beautiful third down conversion. And I'm not asking Justin Fields to be Aaron Rogers, but being able to keep your eyes down the field, to be able to keep yourself square to the line of scrimmage, to be able to navigate that space and keep yourself alive as a passer and feel where that pressure is and where you can escape and where you can keep yourself safe.

He struggles to do that. He just really does. And when you were looking at Justin Fields last year, if you were trying to talk yourself into the optimistic case for Justin Fields, there are a few to different. points. The coaching and the offensive system has to be better this year than it was last year. And I do think so far it is. If you look at the run game and some of the designs and some of the ideas that they have for him, I do think the plan is more sound. The other side of it was the splash plays are there. He can push the ball down the field. His arm doesn't, he doesn't lack for anything arm-wise.

He can place balls down the field. To me, it's about the process and it's about the feel he has for the game, that stuff wasn't part of the conversation because we knew that was bad. And I needed to see that get better and it hasn't gotten better so far. I know the offensive line isn't great, but I think you can try to separate some of these issues from the play of the offensive line as difficult as that might seem. It's funny, man, watching him last night, it reminds me a lot of like what the first half of the season looked like for Jalen Hertz last year, where there's just kind of all over the place in terms of the pocket navigation, the decision making.

You know, against a team like the Packers, you do, there is a degree of this that requires you to force the ball into tight windows because they're going to play aggressive coverage. You're going to get a lot of cover one. You're going to get a lot of aggressive quarters from them. And with, you know, the supporting cast in terms of receivers being what it is, there's even less, you know, disincentive for the Packers to move off of that. So you do have to be able to beat guys with tight window throws with your arm. You have to be able to extend play.

by navigating the pocket properly. So there is a piece of this that is like, you know, perfect opponent to kind of expose all the things that are wrong with Fields and this offense that you're seeing on Sunday night. But definitely, I mean, I think about a vertical throw on a play action pass that I think Eric Stozer-Dyre Alexander just completely released and he was looking that way and didn't even push the ball there and ended up checking it down after working through the rest of his progression.

And those are the plays where you're looking at a guy like Justin Fields and you have to say, hey man, if you confirm one-on-one on a vertical, I understand that your guys are not necessarily ball winners, but against the defense like that, when you're, you know, as kind of paltry offensively as you are in the passing game, you've got to take those shots, especially when they present themselves in that kind of way. In order to be able to open up space, I think, for the rest of the offense, especially on a day where you're able to run the ball well.

There is not a guarantee that they're going to be able to run the football like this week over week. And I think that some of that might be a little structural with the Packers, which I'm sure that we'll get to. But if you're having a day where Montgomery, you know, is able to, generate in the run game. You have got to take advantage of that with your play action passes. You've got to be able to take advantage of that with your legs if your throw isn't there. I would be more at peace if he was just one and gun and completely just tuck and run and I'm going 100 miles an hour. I can make peace with that. It's like the indecision when you're not sure of

what you're looking at. Padding a ball. Okay, I'm going to step up. Now I want to run. Now I want to throw. And that's how you get that pass beyond the line of scrimmage play. And then things like just missing guys in those intermediate areas, there's definitely a bit of this right now where I feel like the evolution has to be on field this part and less so on the offenses because what they have is just what they have. And I think that what they're doing is the best utilization of the guys that they have. They're going to need fields to be a better guy under center for them if they want to turn this thing around offensively. Yeah, the lack of just the indecisiveness and just the pace at which he's playing the position or are a concern. And they were concerned last year. And that just needs to

improve. The supporting cast is so, so bad. I mean, the past catching options, Equiminius St. Brown is a starting receiver on this team. Okay. He played 311 snaps for the Packers last season. 67 of those came in week eight, which I believe would have been the game where their entire wide receiving core was out with COVID and the game where Aaron Jones had like a dozen targets in that game. He's just not somebody that you want as part of your normal rotation. He's a very good run blocker. And that's what he was last night. That's what this team does well. They're just built. They have so many run blockers and that's what they have. But you

just can't live that way. You can't, you have to be able to drop back and throw the football in the NFL and they cannot do it for a variety of reasons right now. And it's starting to get to a point where I'm truly concerned about it. On the flip side. Last thing I was going to say, I think that that's really kind of stated by the note that I saw that you left when we're talking pre-show, which is that Cole Komet is getting no work in this offense

right now. And you would like a guy like Komet, a big body guy who can maybe not create a bunch after the catch, but at least be a solid option for you over the middle of the field. If fields can't find a way to get the ball to guys like that, again, to just relieve some of this pressure on the passing game, it's going to be like this week over week, even if it's not at this degree. It's going to be like this week over week. On the flip side, a lot of panic over the Packers offense in week one, going back and watching that offense last night. Here's what it felt like. This is one of those moments. where you exhale a little bit,

and you realize that the people in charge of this know what they're doing. The hands on the wheel are sturdy with this team. I thought they did so many interesting things in the run game. I thought they did a really good job of getting their best players on the field, so many different snaps. And here's the difference to me. I want to hear what you think about this. It's so easy to say,

we're going to put Aaron Jones and AJ Dillon on the field together. It's going to be a huge part of our game plan. We see teams do the shit all the time, where they do stuff that just bells and whistles for the sake of having the bells and whistles. And I thought that the Packers did such a good job of having designs within the offense in the run game, in the passing game, that made sense with those two guys in the field. You're using their skill sets in the correct way. You're using one of them as eye candy in the correct way and just consistently allowing the game to be easier for you, especially in the run game, because of the intentional unconscious ways that you're using them both, not just throwing them out there because it's a little bit different and a little bit

walkie. Right. I think on their opening drive, the first note I left was like, Aaron Jones RPO guy, you know, because I see him running bubbles and, you know, these kind of slide routes on these RPO's. And to your point about guys knowing what they're doing, I think it's, it's really interesting to look at LaFleur through that lens because it seems clear that he kind of has two gears within this offense. It's what he believes you can do when they can push the ball vertically, which is what we saw in 2021. And then you have what he believes this offense needs to look like when the verticality is not there within within it. And that's what you saw prior with all the Devante Adams, you know, manufactured touches in seasons prior on those bubble screens,

the hitches, the slants. So it's funny to look at them now. How are they weaponizing this personnel to get back to being a more perimeter-based offense? And that's how you get Aaron Jones is an RPO guy. That's how you get some of the pin and pull stuff or you've got a bunch of linemen pulling out onto the perimeter, forcing guys and run support to have to take on blocks. That's been a great way for them to get Dylan, to get. Jones out on the perimeter, you know, and it ties up well with outside zone, you know, it ties up, you know, the duo and power stuff tie up well together. And that keeps guys like Aaron Rogers clean, right?

Now you can't just tee off and say, hey, if you're a quick game team, we're just going to man you up, you know, and get after you up front. All of this kind of eye candy to that point, the condensed splits, the play action, getting guys out in the flats, running these screens, you know, kind of getting back to the true spread offense piece of this that LaFleur brought. I think that that's been really interesting to see. And now looking at them last night, I walked away with the feeling as though the roadmap for them to still be successful offensively is there in a way that I might have had some questions about it leaving that Vikings game. Like now I can see a very clear opportunity for them to still be one of the better offenses in the league.

It helps for the offensive line to get back healthy, get a couple more of those guys on the field. I thought they weaponized Josh Myers in a really impressive way in the run game. The fact that they're going to lean into what he can do on the mood. and have those pinpole looks be a more robust part of their run game plan, I think is a really good sign. I think they can do a lot of fun stuff with that. It all ties together. And when you watch it, it just feels good.

On the first drive, they come out in 12 personnel, I guess, is what you would call it. Deguars on the field with another tight deck. He's lined up in splitback. And the bears match that with base. They have three linebackers on the field. Packers are like, all right, sounds good. Play action, walk in the field. on an inbreaker behind it against those three linebackers chunk play.

So the Bears defensive staff is like, well, I guess we can't do that anymore. So for the most of the rest of the game, a couple small exceptions, but often when they were in 21 or 12, they had nickel on the field because we cannot defend the pass if we do not, if we have three linebackers on the field. Okay. Your nickel corner is a guy who didn't play nickel, I don't think much in college, and is somebody that is a rookie. And now we're going to put him in hell for 60 straight minutes.

And it's not his fault. It is not Kyle or Gordon's fault. But you see how intentionally with him on the field by formation, by motion, they're going to get him in the run fit as often as they possibly can't. He made one nice play against the run, but he missed a bunch of tackles. He got swallowed a bunch of times. There was one play, I think it was the first drive of the second half, where they literally motion Christian Watson in a certain way to get Gordon right into the run fit

and then he whiffs in space. And when you just see those levers constantly being pulled combined with pretty good players in the run game, that's how you see the result that you saw last night. It's just a well- orchestrated offense. And my heartbeat has slowed a little bit when it comes to this team after watching that game. Yes, absolutely. I will say to the point that you open with, I do think that this offensive line can still be a bit of a question mark. Like I would still have kind of like a yellow flag up for them. You know, they did give up a bit of pressure with Chicago only rushing four.

You know, that definitely has kind of piqued my interest to see how they address that throughout the season. But to your point, I think what I really walked away with was confirmation that the menu was still full for Matliflor, even if it's not what it was in 2021. All the flood concepts that they ran, it felt like they were in their entire passing game up the sideline, you know, giving Aaron Rogers something that was clean and clear to work through in terms of progressions because of what they have up front or what they are missing up front, I should say. The 21 pony personnel, which means two true running backs that we talked about, that was just like a gross package for them. You could tell us the bears had absolutely no idea how they wanted to deal with that. The pin and pull stuff was exactly how they were able to attack.

Kyler Gordon, who to your point spent a lot of time and cover one in college, not playing nickel, not having to fit the run as a primary fitter. And another note, I left, and this is a total non-sequitur, but I was just thinking like, shouldn't this be the Russell Wilson offense in Denver? right? Yes. If this is the Russell Wilson Wilson offense in Denver, that would be a great look for them. And to me, that just, again, is a credit to LaFleur and looking at exactly what they have and don't have and saying, all right, we can get back to more of the spread stuff, more of the eye candy, get the ball out of Aaron Rogers' hands quicker and still be effective enough because of what they can do in the run game. It's really

interesting to see LaFleur look at Aaron Rogers and still see, all right, our best methodology to success is leaning into what have in the backfield and allowing Aaron to play off of that. I thought that, don't talk about Kyle Gordon just for a second. I think people are going to really dump on how he played in this game. He had some bad moments, but I don't think they're nearly as bad as they might have looked at first glance. You and I were talking about that big completion to walk-ins late in the game in the fourth quarter

where it looks like he burns Kyle or Gordon. Eddie Jackson is just nowhere to be found on that play. It looked like cover one to me. He's supposed to be the post safety on that play. And he's just sitting there about six yards past the line, hanging out of staring into the backfield. And I'm sitting there like, well, he's funneling Watkins to you in the way that he probably should in that situation. It's not on Kyler Gordon. So there are going to be some down moments for him, for Brisker.

It's going to happen, especially when you're playing against this team where you have to be a part of the run game and they're going to make the game really hard on you. The same excuses do not apply to the Bears linebacking corps who were put in a torture chamber for 60 minutes last night. There were plays where Nicholas Morrow had no idea what planet he was on. And that's the point. That's the point of what this offense can do to you when it's really rolling. I mean, and it's not just him, right? Even with Roy Kwan Smith, so I thought played relatively well, the more you can do with linebackers to get them moving laterally, the more likely you are to be successful.

And that's what all of this stuff is doing. The RPO, as you're seeing guys, okay, am I in the run fit? Am I out of the run fit? Am I responsible for the bubble? Are I supposed to be playing the cutback on run game? Pin and pull means, oh, my gap is now going way out to the perimeter. I've got to go chase the ball way out there. the less downhill they are, the better it is for this offense.

And it's really putting you in positions now where if you're a defensive coordinator, you have to make hard decisions on. Do we send pressure against the quarterback who's seen every pressure on earth in order to be able to stop the run on what they're doing on the perimeter? You know, and you open yourself up to screens and all these other things. So looking at this game, it's like, okay, not only can they do what they just did, there is a whole cascading effect of offense that can come off of this. if defense has really tried to lean into defending some of the perimeter stuff a little bit more than I think what the Bears did.

Would you like to have some discourse about the Packers run defense? Yes. I think I don't want to be definitive, but I think I have figured out exactly what this issue is for them. I'm ready. And this is something I was talking about with some of the guys that I speak about football with often. I think I might have miscast Joe Barry as a Fangio-esque guy looking at his coaching tree. I think he's married. He's married to a Marinelli and he spent a lot of time coaching with Rod Marinelli. And one of the things that I know about Rob Marinelli is that a lot of what they want to do in the run game has to be handled up front.

And I think that because of that, the Packers are kind of like a cover one defense more or less. With that, I think the issues that they bump into is the fact that you have what you have on the edge. You don't want Preston Smith walked out playing out in coverage. So they're really not a three, four. They're more of a five, too. and you're also a cover one defense. Well, if you want to do that and you're asking your front guys to be more vertical, which is what they do, you don't see a lot of gap in a half or trying to stretch plays horizontally a bunch. If you're going to play vertically like that, your linebackers basically can't miss.

And what I saw from the Bears was with a lot of those perimeter runs, those backside linebackers are just getting cut off. You know, play after play after play. It's Quay Walker trying to go underneath blocks. Devondray Campbell trying to go underneath blocks. That's something you can do if you're a true three, four, odd front. cover four defense because there's a certain layering that's happening where the safety can make me right. The edge defenders can, you know, squeeze away space to allow me a little bit of margin for error. That doesn't really exist in the way that I think they want to defend, especially when they have their base personnel on the field.

So all the penny stuff that we've talked about where it's five down, too high safety, we're going to ask our edge defender to basically control the C gap for us so our safety can stay high and our linebacker can rock over the top. You can do that or you can say that you want to be that until you're blue in the field. face. But for them with the Packers, they're just not good enough at the linebacker position with flowing to make up for, I think, the fact that they can't be as versatile when they have two true outside linebackers on the field. So that's going to be a major piece of what I'm evaluating for them is, do they just have to play that kind of two, four, five personnel where you're playing more even front and then opening yourself up to more downhill runs, which is something that was hurting them again with David Montgomery early in early in the game before they

kind of adjusted to fitting everything out of that penny package. I think that's going to be the back and forth for them all season long. The penny package is five down linemen, one linebacker. So you have your nickel defensive back personnel on the field, but only one linebacker. And you still have five down line. So you're playing that five down, right, bare front, odd front type of deal. There was one play, Rashon Gary had a TFL at beginning at the start of a drive. And if you look back on a Justin Skate, actually tweeted out a video of the play. And the way that, how vertical the defensive the line is playing on that place specifically. I think that's kind of what you're talking about, where that's not usually what you see

out of that tree that we're talking about with Fangio and Staley. You're not trying to get that far afield to be disruptive. You're trying to eat up blocks. And it doesn't feel like that's how they want those guys to play. Yeah, I mean, and that just opens up the door to different issues. So to me, it's just, can you continue to play that cover one tight coverage style while also being vertical in the run fit game and have your linebackers make up the difference? You know, the bucks can do it because of what they got at linebacker.

I don't think that they have the Bucks of linebackers. We have plenty of a drop to pick from here from Kent, which I really appreciate. All right. Where do you want to start with this game? Because my thought is a lot of people on the internet over the last 24 hours or so, different comments I've seen about this game, all the things that had to happen for the Jets to win this game, onside kick and missed extra points and everything.

Totally understand that. it's not like this was a blowout where the Jets made some miraculous comeback down the back half of this game in the final two quarters. This game was tight throughout. Joe Flacco finished sixth in EPA per dropback among all quarterbacks on Sunday against a Brown's defense that we were tepidly excited about coming into the season, at least the personnel. So I don't think this is some one-sided affair where the Jets got really lucky down the back half of this game. I was actually pretty impressed with the way that the Jets' offense played for most of this game. So when coming away from this, are you more enthusiastic about what the Jets can do offensively, or are you more concerned about where the Browns are on defense? I think given some of the conversations we had in the offseason about the Browns,

I would definitely be more concerned about this defense than excited about the Jets offense. Though I do think it's going to be really fascinating when Zach Wilson is 100% ready to go, watching how Joe Flacko is operating in that offense. I know that's something that we've thrown out as kind of like a joke question, but it looks less and less like a joke week over week. He looks pretty good yesterday. He was pretty good. I was not expecting that.

Outside of like the completely forgot that he was on a football field and just dropping the ball on Miles Garrett in the red zone, everything else looked really good for him. But looking at the Brown's defense and I don't know if I would like definitively categorize it on this extreme, but I want to use this to kind of paint a picture. But to me, if you want to look at the difference between, being Gus Bradley in 22 and Dimeke O'Reans in 2022, it's whether or not the pass rush gets home enough for all your coverage versatility to matter. And that's where I think that the Browns are at.

You know, past rushers, elite pass rushers who don't get a bunch of sacks in a game, I think get a lot of undue criticism. And I think that that'll eventually come for Miles Garrett. But if you go back and watch him specifically, he did a great job of affecting the pocket. I think that there's just not enough around him for that initial pressure to be as valuable as it needs to be.

You know, I was thinking, you know, drop back after drop back, I was just looking at how comfortable Joe Flacco looked working through his progression. And that just shouldn't happen against this Jets' offensive line. So if they're not getting home, you know, the questions that we talk about with these zone heavy defenses where are you playing cover three where the safety is rolling down into being one of the interior defenders or is it cover four? Are you playing Tampa 2 and disguising it? All these things you want to do with the four-man rush really requires.

wires, what I like to call that additional layer of coverage, quote unquote, which is pass rush affecting the quarterback, right? Because if there's nothing to bother you, well, then any NFL quarterback, you give them enough time can identify what's happening on the back end and be efficient making decisions off of that. And that's what a lot of this was, especially in the second half, they were not able to get home. And with that, you know, it puts you in positions to where you have to do what I think Joe Woods did, which was send a lot of five-man pressures. And those were okay, but now you're talking about a quarterback, again, who's very season in the NFL, just dropping the ball off on their hot throws, you know, play after play.

And so it's that kind of never ending back and forth kind of tug-of-war thing. So they're going to have to find more on the defensive interior. They're going to need more out of their secondary edge rushers to not only get the most out of Miles Garrett, but to make what they have on the back-end matter. The one play that really jumps out. They had a third and seven in the second half where they brought a nickel pressure and J.O.K. was mugged up and he couldn't get back all the way underneath it. And you saw Grant Elpit after the play. He was visibly frustrated.

He's like, this can't happen. And there was a lot of that. And the Jets are 8 to 15 on third down in this game. There were chunk plays when you just can't give up chunk plays. There was a second and 16 at one point, right after Miles Garrett's sack. And he had Corey,

Flacco hit Corey Davis on a deep dig. And John Johnson was the post safety and just doesn't drive on it hard enough. There's a long completion down the left sideline, I believe, to Elijah Moore, where Denzo Ward is just giving him tons of, cushion in cover three. And it's just these, just so, a lot of easy completions in ways that aren't necessarily coverage busts.

They're just built into the way that they're trying to play in those moments. It's like, guys, like I just, I expected more from this group in year two together. I know Martin Emerson is getting a lot of run with Greedy Williams out and Garrett Wilson absolutely cooked him on that, on that fade. It was absolutely disgusting. Garrett Wilson had some nice moments in this game. But other than that, these are guys that. played in the system for multiple years that have played together and are either highly drafted

players in the case of Denzo Ward and Greg Newsom or highly compensated players like John Johnson. Grant Elpitz a second round pick. They have put a lot into this position group for them to allow Joe Flacco to throw the ball the way that he did yesterday. And that just goes back to say that all of this stuff is married together. All of the debate about coverage versus pass rush. Do you need elite corners? how do you want or do you want to build up the spine of the defense all this stuff affects one another

and to me playing defense has a lot more has a lot more to do with a lack of weaknesses than overwhelming strengths while you would like to have those top premier players a true shutdown corner a true premier edge rusher the truth of the matter is that they're only as valuable as your weakest link and right now the browns do just have some holes you know and you think about what they were able to do in the run game as well you know the just didn't blow them up in terms of their rushing stats. But if you go back and just watch within the context of the game, when they wanted to gain yardage on the ground,

they were able to do so, which again is something that we talked about, you know, coming into this season. So I think that when you can get them in the third downs, I think that they'll be a little bit better than the variance allowed them to be this past game. I think that they'll do a little bit better on third down, obvious passing situations of getting home.

But if a guy like Joe Flacco is that comfortable on early downs, that to me kind of speaks to, well, maybe you can't just be a, hey, we're going to rush for and mix up our coverage pictures on the back end, and that'll be enough to really bother an offense. They've got to find a way to be able to generate pressure that does not involve them bringing five or six guys. Because when you lean, the more that you tilt into that, the more you open the door for guys to get exposed in coverage, and that gets to those deep comebacks, you know, along the sideline and fire zone coverage, or those deep digs and overroutes. You know, Ousu Coromoa can do a lot as an interior zone defender, but you've still got to be able to get home for those guys to matter. Even a guy like Fred Warner would struggle if he didn't have any pass rush in front of him. So that's something that absolutely has to be addressed.

And the problem is I just don't know where that is on the roster for them. I don't mean this in a pejorative way. The Jets lead the league so far in bullshit gains on offense. Yes. They have so many bullshit gains built. that bullshit chunks of yardage. There are so many of them built into this. Braxton Barrios jet sweeps and different two persons,

they have a pony package now. It's not shocking that the offensive coordinator for the Jets is related to the head coach and play caller for the Packers. The stealing some of that stuff with Michael Carter and Bruce Hall on the field at the same time. So I appreciate it. Like when you don't think your offense is going to be great, you should be near the top of the league in bullshit chunks of yardage.

And so I like a lot of the stuff that I've seen from the Jets in the first two weeks on that front. Yeah, I think that that to me again speaks to why it's going to be so fascinating for me what this offense looks like when they get their young guy back. You know, because I do see an infrastructure for him to be able to step in and they can legitimately look at him and say, we are not going to ask you to do all the things that we asked you to do last season. You could probably just copy and paste a lot of these Joe Flacco plays over for him and say, hey, we're not going to tell you that you got to navigate a pocket excellently. give you those screens to Garrett Wilson that we saw yesterday. We'll give you those jet sweeps. You know, we'll give you, you know, tailback screens and things of that nature.

And I think that addressing it in that way would be really helpful for him. But to your point about those bullshit gains or the fake offense stuff, as I like to call it, that stuff is really valuable for this O because of the questions that I think that they have week over week in terms of offensive line. And if they can generate that and still have some sort of viability with the run game, I still don't think they're good, but it certainly makes them much more interesting to watch. on a week-by-week basis. Just little things, little moments where I was like, ooh, that's nice. They had a third and six on a drive, and they motioned Garrett Wilson down into a stack,

and he ran a little jerk route against Greg Newsom for a first down. So Julian Adam and special, how many millions of times did you see the Patriots do that? And on third down when they know they're getting man coverage, the completion to haul for the touchdown, just like little bits of confusion down into the goal line. Browns were absolutely lost. The one play, I mean, it's indefensible, and it's one of the reasons they lost the game. what the hell happened on that Corey Davis touchdown? I don't know.

Like, I watched 10 times. I really don't know. I'm guessing. If I had to be as apologetic as absolutely possible, I would have to say that maybe the corner thought that it was just a corner route and he just fell off playing underneath it. But that was one of those ways that was so bad. You didn't even see the corner do the hands up.

Hey, somebody is supposed to cover for me thing. You know, everybody just kind of looked at it. each other like, yeah, we fucked that up, didn't we? It looks like quarters. Right? And so... It looked like quarters for a bit, yes. And I just didn't understand because on that play, like, if it's quarters, that's all

you, buddy. That's your, yeah, that's all you, man. It was a very confusing play. And those are just the types of moments where it's like, I just don't want those sorts of bust from a team that we're supposed to really like coming into the season. The Browns are 28th and drop back EPA aloud over their first two games. Like, the way this team is built and where they need to be good, that just can't happen. It shouldn't be possible.

It should not be possible with this. defense and backfield. Last note on that side of the ball, I'm excited about Garrett Wilson. He had some moments in this game beyond that touchdown. He had a play, speaking of corner routes and just smash concepts or sail. It's just a little curl and then a little corner route behind it. Right. They hit it against quarters and Denzel Ward came up on the little stopper out.

And Garrett Wilson, the vertical push he had at Delpit on that play to make him back up and then break it outside. It was like, ooh, like that guy's playing with some conviction. as somebody in his second career game, and you like to see that. So the fact that he's playing really well, just within the structure of the offense, they're scheming stuff up for him. I'm excited to see where that goes with him. That was what I was going to walk away with, was like what they're scheming up for him. I'm like, oh, that's a great way to utilize this skill set.

They missed him on a little spot and go in the high red zone or in the low red zone. I believe I want to say it was a second or third down where Cleveland was playing some kind of Tampa two or red zone two type of look where you got him completely isolated. against the Mike Backer. It's like, okay, you guys have clearly have an intentional red zone package where this is for 17 to get a one-on-one in this scenario where we know we're going to get some kind of too high coverage or some kind of pressure look. That to me is fascinating. And I think it says a lot about Garrow Wilson, who I had a little bit of questions about in terms of what he was going to look like in terms of a role at the NFL level. But if he's there,

move around, manufacture touches for a guy, especially underneath, you know, on those option routes against linebackers or zone defenders, that to me is going to open up, I think, what's the best piece of his game, which is what he can create after the catch. He had a double move that was pretty close to being a huge chunk play. Newsom actually had a really good play on it. But, I mean, it was really fun to see all the ways that they were deploying him in this game. On the other side of the ball, I want to start with the Jets defense, because this was supposed to be the area of this roster that improved the most from last year to

this year. They were the worst defense in the NFL. They finished dead last in a lot of the advanced metrics that you're going to look at. What do you think the Jets defense ranks in EPA per play over the first two games of the season? It can't be high. 31st, which is technically an improvement over where it was last year, but it's still not what you want to see. The Browns are moving the ball pretty efficiently and easily in this game, and it wasn't just on the ground. They had some chunks through the air, especially off play action.

The Brown's offense is very well constructed, right? I mean, there's all of the Jet Motion they're using now with Demetrick Felton. It's just like every single time this team needs a new bell and whistle in the run game to just add one more layer of difficulty and nonsense. They're able to find it. But still, even if you're playing against the team that we like the design and the intention of the offense, this is still Jacobi Peret playing quarterback. I mean, so this is funny.

So my old pal, Seth Galena, sends a message to me and he was like, Jacobi Preset is good. I was like, what are you talking about? No, Jacoby Reset is good. I was like, I don't think he could have a more. damning indictment of what the Jets defense was. And my guy, Seth, coming into the group chat saying that Jacoby Berset is somehow the answer for whatever is going on with the Brown's offense.

But I think that it's very well constructed to your point. A lot of the gap, a lot of the gap scheme stuff, even out of the gun, I thought worked really, really well for Berset. I thought that he did a really good job of being efficient in his dropbacks and getting the ball out quickly and allowing guys to go create after the catch. Getting the ball to guys on the move was a big piece of that offense. And if they can generate that, then against a team like the Jets, which can't really rush the passer right now and don't really have the horses to be able to play a bunch of tight coverage, you get that kind of exposure that I think we saw on Sunday. Whoa, whoa, this is a problem, okay?

If the Jets can't run the passer and they can't play tight coverage, with the amount with the amount of money and draft picks that they have pumped into this side of the ball, then we need to have a serious conversation. We do. I'm kind of not, I'm not necessarily saying the Sala has to go on the hot seat, but he's definitely a guy I'm looking at and saying, if this doesn't get much better between year one and year two after all that investment and draft capital and free agent spending, then what exactly is it that we have, what exactly is the reason that we have this defense first guy who was part of that Super Bowl run for the 49ers here for. It's something I'm really, really fascinated about because I don't know what the pathway is for this defense to get much better. If a guy like Jacob, percent looks that comfortable against them. Such a weird place for this team to be two weeks into the season where I'm watching the offense. And it's like, okay, I get this. This fits together. I understand what they're trying to do, doing a lot of interesting stuff, making things

easy on guys. And you look at the defense. It's like, well, this is still a disaster. It's just not what I were expected to be two weeks into the season. It's also not where I're expected to be with the Browns, where this version of their offense, this was totally within the realm of outcomes, where the run game was going to look disgusting. the same way that it always does.

They were going to create easy completions. I thought that Amari Cooper had a really nice game. They really did some interesting stuff with him, lighting him up at the number three spot, getting him in the nickel corner in certain match-up spots. I thought that they drew some interesting stuff up for David Nogh, who had a terrible drop on an important second down that led to a punt. But overall,

the construction of the passing game is pretty good. The offense, I think, even with Chicobe Percette, is going to be a unit that people have a difficult time with. But for that to be enough for them to sustain. stain themselves while Berset as their quarterback, I thought the defense had to be really good. And right now, the defense is pretty far from really good. So Joe Wood's and Robert Sala, former colleagues, former coworkers, both are on watch for me right now, two games into the year. 100%.

Speaking of being on watch, let's talk about the Patriots and the Steelers and their two offenses from this game. I don't know where to start with, I don't know, either one of these teams. Who are you more disappointed with offensively? New England or Pittsburgh? It might be Pittsburgh. And it was something I had to go back and rewind the tape to look at. So Mitch Trubisky throws a pick early in the game. And the Patriots are running like an inverted cover two look where they're showing single

high, the corner drops out, has a half, and you're playing cover two underneath. And I think after that throw, I don't think he threw the ball further than 12 yards the rest of the football game. And it was like, okay, I felt like my tape was on loop. It's like, okay, another drive of run for two yards, four yards, check down. Two yards, four yards, check down. All right, motion, bootleg, try a shovel pass. That's not there.

Check down. It was confusing the heck out of me. And it got to a point where I was like, this isn't even a matter of New England or Bill Belichick just put in this offense in hell. This is just Mr. Trubrinsky deciding that he's not even going to give Bill the opportunity to embarrass him. He's just checking it down left and right. So I think that now, after being sold on all the ways that they can move the pocket and create this misdirection to be able to generate more offense down the field, that is not the case with this offense right now.

And all I'm looking at is a younger quarterback doing the exact same thing that Ben Rathesberger did for the last two seasons. I think he did throw the ball more than 12 yards, one other point in the game. And it was the one down the over route. Well, it was down the left sideline. the one he airmailed for George Pickens, and you could see just the deflation in George Pickens' body language after the throw. It's like, man, we just got no shot. And at a certain point, I think the Steelers probably have to have a conversation about what is the best thing

for them, both in the short and long term. Because the defense, even without T.J. Watt, I think, is going to be a unit that can keep them in games for most of this season. But what are you doing offensively? If he's not better, if he's not giving you a real, shot right now. Aren't you limiting yourself in two ways because you're depressing what you can be in the short term and also sacrificing the quarterback's development in the long term? It just feels like sooner rather than later he should probably get a shot because how much worse could it be than this?

The way I'm looking at it is like you, I think for this offense, you just have to have a quarterback that is going to be willing to throw interceptions. And Mitch Trubisky, he has no incentive as a guy who was trying to have. hang on as a viable, you know, kind of fringe starter to a high level backup in the league to push the ball down the field if he does not want to. I think that for the sake of this offense, in order for Matt Canada to get a look at some of the things that he needs to evaluate in terms of what this offense needs to be week by week and season over season, you probably do just need to go ahead and evaluate your young quarterback that way because he's

got enough runway to be able to take those one-on-one balls. Hey, just throw it up. I'd rather you underthrow it than overthrow it. If it gets picked, off, at least we take the chance. It's hard watching Chase Claypool and Dante Johnson and what they have on the perimeter not really get any opportunity to create after the catch. To the point that I know that you and Nate talked about last week after the Thursday night game of the Chargers offense just feeling so stationary. There's just nothing happening after the catch or guys are standing still or breaking towards the sideline on almost every completion. The same thing applies to the Steelers, oh, based on what they're doing with Mitch Trubisky.

there is, I have never known an offense to be able to be viable week over week, explosive week over week, dangerous week over week that plays offense that way. They're going to have to find a way to push the ball down the field. And if you can't get it out of Mr. Trubisky, I almost don't care where Kenny Pickett is at right now in terms of his development. They've got to get a look at something else if this is what it looks like, you know, after Ben Rathesberger. Because when he uncorks it every once in a while, it doesn't look terrible. Like he had that third and seven play to Deonti Johnson down the left sideline where he had to kind of escape out

to his left made a really nice throw on the move try to take a whole shot to Johnson near the end of the first half that wasn't a terrible throw really bad underthrow on the wheel to Najee Harris in that one situation where he was on Judon. He was pissed. That's just a throw you got to hit. He's got three yards of separation.

That's a 50 yard gain if he manages to lay it out there for him. Instead, Najee's got to try to make a leaping, twisting catch over an edge rusher that is guarding him in coverage. So it's going to be a mixed bag, but I would love to see them open it up just a little bit more. And it just doesn't seem like they're willing to do that right now. On the other side of the field, I think the Steelers game plan in this game was really telling in the sense that they played 40% man coverage and they just weren't afraid. And that's how teams are going to play the Patriots, I think.

through two games, I want to say that they're the third highest man coverage rate that they've faced of anybody. The Eagles are up there near the top, but that's a weird game against the Lions. We're blitzing on 50% of dropbacks. I'm going to guess that until we see a reason for it to change, the Patriots are going to be near the top or at the top of that list for most of the year. You're not worried about what the quarterback is going to do to you with his feet, and you're not worried about what any of the past catchers are going to do to you. With one notable exception, when Nelson Aguor made that play down the right side, sideline. I had a moment like John Malaney with the horse in the hospital. It's like, I didn't know he knew how to do that. I was blown away. I was like, wait, I've been watching

Nelson Aguilor not only since he was in Philadelphia, but at USC. I was like, I don't remember him dunking on guys like that over the top. With the Steelers defense, one of the funny things that I was watching is like, and this was something I was definitely there with Keith Butler, but they have, like they very obviously have a, we do not respect this quarterback package. of defense where guys who are playing in the middle of the field don't move off of like their 15 16 yard landmark they're playing almost flat-footed 15 or 16 when minka was playing as the robber in those looks he was eight yards past the line of scrimmage all of their biggest completions were going behind him because of how shallow he was playing i was watching some snaps of cover three

or i was like okay their hook defenders got to 10 yards exactly and stopped like this was clearly practiced throughout the week that they have so very little respect for them. They played a lot of soft cover two, not even mixing up the rotations, just playing straight ahead cover two to see if Mack Jones would even take a chance in that 16 to 18 yard hole in the middle of the field and up the sideline didn't happen a whole bunch. And then everything else is just a bunch of cover one with Minka as the robber trying to take away some of those dig routes. And the funny thing about Mac, Mac Jones when I watch him is he's not a timing thrower, right? He's a throwing a space guy. When you get him overroutes, where you can just throw it into air, he looks really, really good with that.

When it's like dagger concepts where you get a clear-out and he's got a bunch of airspace to throw the ball into, he looks really proficient at that. Against the defense like this where they're trying to play a bunch of tight coverage or take away some of those open airspace throws across the middle of the field, and now he's got to be really on time. Soon as your foot hits the ground at the bottom of your drop, you've got to be ready to get the ball out. He has a lot of trouble with that. And that's how you get early in the game where it's just target to the running back, target to the running back, target to the running back. I felt like the first two drives had more targets to the running back than I had seen in the rest of the morning slate throughout all those first quarters. Because he's just not comfortable timing out where these zones are opening or manipulating zone coverage with his feet or with his eyes.

That was something that was very evident to me. And then just in general with the Patriots, I think I hate this version of this offensive plays 11 personnel to everything and they get no movement up front. What is this offense? I know this is something that has been talked about a bunch, but the passing progressions are fine in terms of always having a crosser and something in the flat to create a horizontal stretch. But there's no run game to bring guys forward. And there's nothing vertical to keep these DBs deeper down the field. So now we are asking Mack Jones to basically be a superhero in the pocket, which is how you get this just absolutely stagnant offense where just like the Steelers, it felt like every drive was on a loop. I felt like I knew the runs that were happening.

I knew where it was going to have to go in the passing game because nothing was changing and there was no threat to the Steelers' defense throughout the game. Their best stretch in the run game was the four-minute trail, where they were actually like lining up and having to smash people. That was the best their offense looked the entire game is when they had to line up and just run the ball. And I think that's pretty telling. The one thing and the crossing point is so perfect because I can picture in my mind

the most effective passing play that the Patriots had on Sunday. They were in 11 personnel. They had John Hussmith as the single receiver to the left side. And when Terrell Edmonds was over there guarding him, Mac is sitting there, being like, well, it's man coverage. I know it's man coverage. And then he hits the crosser or second in-breaker, whatever it was, a lot of a time it was a crosser from that number three spot coming all the way across the field with

John Hussmith clearing it out. They hit that three or four times. they hit it to Jacoby Myers. They hit it to Nelson Aguilar. That was their passing game outside of that one huge chunk that they hit to Nelson Aglar. That's it. And then the hilarious thing is that then the Steelers are like, okay, well, now we're

just going to put Mika Fitzpatrick as a robber in the hole. Yeah. Have fun now. Go do something else now. And there was not a whole lot else for this offense to do. So this is just how they're going to be defended. It's going to be a lot of three robber and a lot of soft cover two. And the rest is just going to be straight man coverage across the board.

and F you go beat us over the top And I can't think of a worse type of context To be asking Mac Jones To be playing quarterback under in the NFL So I don't know exactly what is supposed to improve about this If you can't get in the heavy personnel And dictate the defenses What they can and can't do with the run game

And you don't have guys to win over the top When you do get those obvious one-on-one situations On the perimeter This is one of those games where the Patriots won But it could go either way based on bounces of the ball Nobody feels good, yes Nobody feels good. Sutton drops that pick.

It hits him in the chest. And then immediately after that, Gunnarol-Shevsky muffs the punt. And it gives the Patriots the ball. I get the 25-yard line. It's just one of those ugly games that flip a coin. And nobody feels good coming out of it and think you have real concerns about both sides of it. All right. We're going to take one more break here.

And then we're going to wrap up with a real quick look at Giants Panthers. Here's a deal. I've got a hangover. Who knows what that means? All right. quickly here. Let's talk about Giants Panthers. The Giants are 2 and O. We have to talk about this at least a little bit. The most disgusting 2 and O that you could possibly be. It's one of those things where, all right, I'm going to dig into the game. Maybe that's

going to be more impressive than I thought. They beat a bad Panthers team. They're going to do a lot of good things. And there are some good things. The Panthers fumbled twice inside their own 40-yard line. The first two times they touched the ball in this game and the Giants came way with six points and eventually won by a field goal. This game was as ugly as you thought it might be looking at the box score. I think that the last time I saw a game, this gross from the Giants, was when they played the Dolphins last season in like that disgusting RPO Fest where nobody can move the ball. I think that game finished like 13-9 or something gross like that.

There's like nobody's moving the football at all. Both quarterbacks are like, seems like they're both falling ass backwards into completions and first-nail conversions. I will say that Christian McCaffrey looked decent, but if I'm looking at anything else, I have no idea what I'm supposed to pull positively from what I saw on Sunday between these two teams. Baker Mayfields,

we talk about pocket navigation and presence and all that with Justin Fields. It remains really quite, really concerning. Every single time they brought pressure, it's him bailing to his right. It's him having absolutely no feel for how to handle those situations. That was a problem throughout this game. A couple of things about the, the Giants offense, I think are worth pointing out.

Andrew Thomas looks like a dude. He looks like a real dude, and that is definitely a step in the right direction. Evan Neal's going to have his ups and downs. There are some highs, there are some lows. I think this game was no different. The other thing was I really liked a lot of the play action concepts they had for Daniel Jones that just made it super, super easy on him. Yes.

He averaged 3.3 air yards per target off play action in this game. 3.3. But on those plays, seven of nine for 73 yards. So 73 of his 173 passing yards and the touchdown that he threw and multiple scrambles for first outs. So just giving him little options in the flat, little things where he's on the move, trying to make it easier on him in that way. It's something, right? It's something that you're trying to build this offense out of when David Sills is one of your, is getting all this run at receiver. When you have all of these moving parts along the interior, the offensive line.

This team is, can we keep our hands on the wheel and white knuckle it until the end of the season and get some flashes from our young guys? That's it. And the fact that you happen to stumble into two wins early on as part of that process, more power to. Can't beat it. Yeah, can't beat it. It's funny hearing the air yard's number because every one of those five actions, like, especially on bootlegs from a coaching perspective, you always say, hey, hit the slide if the slide is there. Hit the flat if the flat is there. And that's what he's got.

I feel like Brian Daibble is screaming at Daniel Jones. if he even thinks about throwing anything that is not the slide or the flat route. I don't even know. I think if Brian Davel could design these play action passes where nobody else ran a route except for the slide, he would do it that way to make sure that nothing bad can happen. But to your point on Baker, it's, well, one, I mean, you're dealing with Wink Martindale who is certainly going to put stress on you in terms of pocket navigation. But even against like the four-man rushes, and this is where I was watching the game and

just thinking, this is just who Baker-Mayfield is now. Yeah. It's four-man rushes in, he's dropping his eyes, running into the back of a guard, and then having to bounce back out. And at that point now, you can't even see the field because of everything that's changed in just that half second of you panicking. So that level of panic was definitely a major red flag for me that just kind of lets me know that whatever it was that we saw of him in the second half of last season, that was not just an injury thing. The injury may have exacerbated it, but his eyes are bad. His trust is bad right now within the offenses that he's operating under. And I think that even with what Ben McAdoo is trying to do, there's some heavier personnel,

there's some deep pocket play action stuff. They're trying to do some of the things that I think puts Baker in position where he can be successful. He's just not working the ball and working the pocket the way that you would need to see from a veteran quarterback. A couple moments from defensive players, youngish defensive players on the Giants. I thought that Darnell Holmes had a couple nice flashes in this game. Julian Love had a couple TFLs, including that big sack late in the game. that's all you need. Like, can we get some of that every single week while creating some good feelings about where

this thing is moving forward before we kind of take a blow torch to this thing in the offseason? So good for the Giants, good for Brian Daible. I'm sure they're feeling really, really good here at 2&O. We'll see what things look like here at them off. And I don't imagine that they'll be very good. And that's fine. It doesn't matter. That's totally fine.

Because nobody wants this thing to be good anyways. That's success to me. You got a couple of wins so you can look at everybody and say that we know, what we're doing here. And now when we lose, we can look and say, we always knew we were bad. We just got a good system in place here. All right. That is all we have for right now, even though Bellard just pointed this out,

their favorite against the Cowboys next week on Monday Night Football, which is absolutely incredible. Come on, Vegas. Come on. So, speaking of Monday Night Football, we do not have a recap show tonight. We're going to take it easy. I'm just going to watch some football and sit on the couch. I highly recommend that you guys do the same. We will be back on Wednesday with my friend Brian Curtis from the ringer.

We're going to talk about what football looked like on television this week with all of the new bells and whistles and the Amazon broadcast and all the new boots. So please come and check that out on Wednesday morning. Really excited to chat with Curtis as I always am. In the meantime, please subscribe to this YouTube channel. If you have not subscribed already, we're going to be doing this show every Monday. We have our Sunday night recap with Nate that's on. there. Nate's newest edition of Wind the Clock. Breaking down Christian Kirk's

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