The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Joe Burrow & Matthew Stafford’s journey to the Super Bowl with Bruce Feldman & Scott Linehan

Episode Date: February 7, 2022

It’s officially Super Bowl week and to kick off the festivities Robert Mays sits down with The Athletic’s Bruce Feldman to discuss Joe Burrow’s journey from LSU to the NFL’s biggest stage and what makes him so special. Plus, former NFL coach Scott Linehan joins the show to talk about Matthew Stafford’s career development, his strengths as a quarterback and much more.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today. It's Super Bowl Week. We've got a lot of coverage coming to you this week. We're going to have five shows along with the show that Dana Lance are going to do on Wednesday, their typical draft show.

A lot of really great stuff coming away. We're going to start it off with a look at the quarterbacks in this game. And I wanted to talk to somebody who has pretty good knowledge of those quarterbacks. Somebody who's been around them, either work. with them or really observe them in depth. And we're going to talk to Bruce Feldman, who obviously Bruce Feldman of the athletic. Bruce wrote Ed Ogeron's book with him after the 2019 season when LSU won the national championship.

He wrote a piece last week for the athletic about Joe Burrow, just why he felt like the Bengals would be a different team when Joe Burrow got there, why he thought that Joe Burrow could turn the Bengals around. We dug into all the things that make Joe Burrow that guy, fantastic conversation with Bruce. We also talked to Scott Linahan, who was the. offensive coordinator for the Lions during Matthew Stafford's first several seasons there was a part of the contingent that drafted Matthew Stafford in Detroit, just about working with him, his strengths as a quarterback. Great conversations with both those guys. I hope you enjoy it. Let's get to Bruce.

All right. I am thrilled to welcome now the athletic zone, Bruce Feldman, somebody who has written about Joe Burrow for a long time and in ways that very few people have. I consider him an expert on the subject. And I'm thrilled to have him. Bruce, thank you very much for doing. this. Well, thank you very much for having me and thank you for the kind words on that. I appreciate it. So in these moments where a quarterback specifically gets to this point on the brink of a championship, taking his team to a Super Bowl, we ascribe qualities to those players that are often wrong, that are overstated, that aren't necessarily important when it comes down to it. But with Joe Burrow, it really does seem like it's an exception. And you think about how transformative his presence has been at a place like LSU.

How quickly and transformative, how quickly he's been transformative at a place like Cincinnati, where the franchise has been and also ran for literally decades. And with him being there for two seasons is now in the Super Bowl. You've spent a lot of time with him.

You've been very close and observed him. If you were trying to describe to a stranger, what makes Joe Burrow that sort of transformative presence? What makes him special? Where would you start? I would start with. this. So from as long as I can remember, the word intangibles was kind of confounding to me. I think the first time I'd ever heard it was like back in the old, old NFL today days,

Jimmy the Greek would have like an intangibles tab that like, and I didn't know what that meant. After being around Joe Burrow and LSU, I know what it means. I get it now. And most of the best quarterbacks that we've seen in football, it's something that separates them, right? Like, look, obviously Josh Allen is different. He's big with a ridiculously strong arm. But a lot of times, like, I was around Logan Thomas. When he was a Logan Thomas is a huge arm. He's a big guy and he's a good athlete.

But I think with Joe Burrow, the parts that were really different with him were a couple of things. First of all, he is as close to a player coach as college football has seen at a high level as there is. Kellen Moore might, you know, I work with Chris Peterson now. Kellan Moore might have had a lot of elements of that at Boise, but on a obviously much smaller scale. He wasn't doing it in the SEC. You know, he's not as big. He's not as athletic as Joe. Joe's arms a little better.

But you got to remember when Joe got to LSU, when he transferred in there, I think the staff was kind of like, we're not sure about his arm. And they thought he had a little bit of a dead arm, maybe because he had worked himself so much to try to get ready for his new teammates to try to make such a strong impression. But I think the things that wowed them were the leadership, the toughness, and just how football smart he was. And all those things kind of kept coming forward, especially the toughness. And I think all those things kind of manifested itself in changing really the persona of LSU football. Because obviously, as you know, there's been a ton of great players on defense and some good players on offense, but usually the running backs, right? but they never seemed to have like a dynamic offense.

And he and the, you know, what he brought to them and the belief that they all had in him changed. And so the story I did for The Athletic last week about really these intangibles, these six kind of moments that kind of really resonated with people there. I told at Ogeron the story I was working on. And one of the things he kind of threw in at the end was he was like, do you remember? the three-point shooting contest. And I was like, I kind of knew what he was talking about. But when they were in the bowl, they each team, as part of like a bowl event, remember this is before COVID, they would all like round up their five best players or basketball

players and have like a three-point shooting contest. And it was almost like, who's going to be the anchor man? And the team picked Joe Burrow. And, you know, like what Ed thought was interesting. Now they knew he was a really good high school basketball player. But they were like, the whole team picked this white guy from Ohio. He was not like a Louisiana kid. He was the outsider.

But it was like, they believe no matter what, Joe's the guy we want to be batten last because he's going to end. He didn't miss. You know, and it was like just another Joe Burroughs story about them believing in him and Joe coming through. The story that you pointed out that I found so interesting and made total sense to me was about the quarterback competition and about the pecking order when he got there. And there was a situation at LSU. you that would have been similar to the situation at Ohio State if Joe had stayed, where you have this guy who's been part of the program for years and somebody who was well liked, who builds up equity with the players in that building. And when you have someone like that, it's easy to root

for that guy as part of the competition. But Burrow was so magnetic, so likable, had garnered such an affection from those guys so early that he was able to kind of win the hearts of the people at that school over the person who had been there for several years. And in my opinion, that makes total sense because I don't know how to describe it. It's kind of ineffable. He has this confidence about him, but it's also endearing. And there are so many moments over the last couple years as he's kind of come into the spotlight, him saying he could score 12 points in an NBA game if he were to be put into an NBA game. Even that small little moment at the press conference the other day where he was asked about the necklace he was wearing and he said, well, I make too much money for it to be

fake. So many people could say that and they would come off like an asshole. They would come off as somebody who was insufferable, someone you would never want to spend time with. And there's a softness to him in combination with that confidence that I feel like just kind of disarms people, but also draws them to him. I know this sounds convoluted, but that's because it is convoluted. It's really hard to understand unless you see it because it feels palpable in those moments. Yeah, and I think what's interesting is this is not a guy. Yes, he was at Ohio State, but he was like a, you know, depending on which ranking service, he was either a high three star or a really low four star, but he was not, you know, you got to remember like when he was there, Urban Meyer had in the Irbins big into grandiose statements, but Urban had talked about Dwayne Haskins as he has the best arm talent of anybody ever seen in high school coming out or whatever. And so it was like, Haskins was the annoyed guy. And it's not to say, look, Haskins had a super productive year when he ended up getting. getting the job. He had like 50 touchdown passes. But there is something about the the leadership and the presence Joe Burrow has that people notice. Like that scene we're talking about from

the athletic story about him and the quarterback competition. You got to remember, like it was a guy who had been in the program. Justin McMillan was the guy who had the locker room. This could have easily had divided the team along racial lines. Here's this outsider from a Ohio who just got here. Is he getting, is he, is he being given the job? Ogeron was very careful to make sure he's earning it. And I think he was thankful that Joe Burrow had done the work because a lot of times somebody comes in, especially when it's a big recruiting battle and you know you need something,

was like, hey, we're, we need him to be the guy. But Joe Burrow did all, like that's why I kind of went in through the story and showed Joe Burrow was there a week early whenever. everybody else was on vacation to make sure he won all the, all the conditioning runs. His first impression couldn't be like any other newcomer, any other freshman. And I think because he had done all those things,

he had the credibility and, you know, the Devin White's and Greedy Williams. Like what I loved about that story was we were able to get into the locker room and into this team meeting about these are the guys who get it, right? Because a lot of times where, you know, we may miss,

you know, like in our evaluations of who we think is really good in college, and they are really good in college, because usually they're much better than whoever they are, is just what makes them special. And, you know, quite honestly, some of these, some guys who are really good in college just don't have, they're good players, but there's something where it's going to,

where it's going to hit a ceiling once everything else, you know, rises up to another level. And with him, I just think there is some innate trait. and you can go back like, you know, I spent a bunch of time talking to Jimmy Joe's dad, who was a longtime college coach, and to his mom about, you know, he, you just kind of wonder like where did it come from, like the it part with him. Yeah.

He has two older brothers who played it in Nebraska. It wasn't like they were superstar players, but they're much older. And Joe from the time, his mom, you know, was bringing him to football games where he was in, you know, basically in diapers. And so he grew up at his dad's football games. grew up around it and he could hear as the son of a coach kind of the things of what fans say. And I think that gave him a pretty unique perspective because he's obviously a really intelligent guy. And you can see that, you know, like there is a sincerity to him.

You know, you could see it when his Heisman speech, he gets really emotional. I don't remember ever hearing about Joe Burrow getting emotional, his voice cracking and coming to tears. he did when he talked about. He was grateful that LSU took him, took him a chance on him. And when it seemed like at that point, nobody really believed in him. How much did you see him interact with teammates in LSU? How often were you in the room where that sort of thing would have happened? Quite a bit.

Over the last month of the season, basically from the playoff run, you know, including to the time they crushed Georgia in the SEC title game. So I was there from that point pretty much. right through to being on the bus after they won the national title. And so I had a first front row seat to this. And, you know, the things, and sometimes I would, you know, like I would, one time I'd go in the running backs meeting and sit next to Clyde and see how that went. Or I'd go into one of Aranda's meetings. I tried to bounce around.

But, you know, the way they talked to Joe, the way Joe was kind of part of it, it was really as close as you get to a player coach. And again, now that was year two in the. the system and year two there. I don't think it was that way the first year. But he, like, I think one of the things that we are guilty of in the media and, you know, his fans also is just kind of like, you know, it's got to be an absolute, right? Like, everyone said, oh, it was Joe Brady, who was the offensive coordinator and Joe was the, you know, whatever.

And then when it didn't work out great, it was like, well, it was all Joe Burrow. And it was like all, you know, it's like, Joe Brady. called, you know, was the guy behind third downs and red zone and he was really good and he was good with the receivers and he is super smart. Joe Burrow is ridiculously smart and skilled. He also had Jamar Chase and Justin Jefferson and people now know just how terrific those guys are. And they had Clyde and they had a couple guys who already started in the NFL and the offensive line. It was just a lot of things that came together. But the biggest thing was you had a, you also had a system where, where he didn't want Max Protect. He wanted everybody out. Let me attack it rather than them attack me. And I think that kind of factors into what makes him tick and what makes him effective.

And even you see, you know, he runs the ball well. Like whenever people saw, oh, Johnny Mansell gave Nick Sabin all sorts of problems. Yeah, he did. And a bunch of, but they don't necessarily think of Joe as that because he's probably not going to run anywhere. or a 4-4-5 or a 4-5, but he runs well and he's aggressive and he's smart about it. And he is very athletic. And I think all those things kind of came together. And so you would see how much confidence they had in him.

I just remember they would do the walkthroughs in these huge ballrooms in whatever, it was a Marriott Marquis in Atlanta. And I would sit there and I would be like kind of against the wall and I would be with some of like the other staffers. And I just kind of watch him. and you'd see like is he like is he's not like a rah-rah guy it's kind of my question is how he endears himself to those guys I find it so interesting and I'm really curious about it there was one great scene after they when I'm trying to remember if it was after they they crushed Oklahoma in the semi-final game it was like 66 to 20 it could have been 96 to 20 right and um after the game

like Justin Jefferson has a big gregarious personality he's We're talking. Yeah. And they were talking like, so I was around Justin Jefferson and Chase was on the other side of him. And they were talking about Joe. It's almost like Joe's lair. Like Joe had his own apartment. He's the grad student.

And when he came in, it was like, you know, they would joke about kind of like Joe's habitat, you know, because I don't think they said he was necessarily nerdy. But they knew he was like, they kind of respected it. And he kind of connected with them. but it was it was funny to hear them talk and joke with him you know and I think they just kind of got each other I mean I thought it was because you had really really gregarious personalities and I think Joe there was a there was a good respect there but you would see Joe as this kind of icy um super confident guy when he was in those walkthroughs it was just like you know if if if Joe Burrow had not been like if if if he'd you'd be like if he'd you He'd been a first time starting as a freshman quarterback, and you watch him. You'd be like, man, does this guy not know what he doesn't know? But it was the opposite. You're like, oh, this guy has all the answers to the test.

That's how he kind of was just like, you'd watch him. And after a while, you know, the thing that jumped out at me, and this was when they played Georgia's. So they had a practice on Wednesday, I remember, and they were super loose before it. I was like, okay, whatever. And then an hour before the game, you know, basically, and what was essentially Georgia's home stadium, they were like as loose as they were at the practice. And I've never seen, I'm a sideline reporter. I've never seen a team that had that demeanor. And I think Joe was the tone setter for that. In terms of conversations with him, you know, not even just being a fly on the

wall, but sitting and talking with him, what has struck you in those moments, just about how he considers questions and how he answers them? And I've, people have said that he's very thoughtful in those moments. I'm just curious what has jumped out to you when you've gotten to interact with him in that way. I think there was a time or two where sometimes I think he wondered what is out there. Like I'm not sure how much, I don't want to say not how much he cares about it. But like when we talked about one of the scenes was told to me by a quality control guy who had been close to Joe. And it was, you know, he was like, I don't think he knew the story. He knew the story, but it was interesting to hear his side of it because I think everything for him was really to respect the team and to, like, I think he appreciated that he was given a unique amount of authority.

And I think that was very important to him to show appreciation for that because, you know, I didn't think of this in this context until now we're talking about it. But I think a lot of times great players in college football and certainly in the NFL have always been great players. They have been coddled. They have been wooed. They have been maybe to some degree they have like Joe Burrow was not taking anything for granted. Yeah. And I think he had such an appreciation and a thankfulness where I, you know, it was almost like, you know, that expression of somebody gets to like is looking at their own funeral. I think Joe Burrow probably saw life.

And I'm not saying he's Gardner Minshu. Because you know, you know, obviously the story about Gardner Minshue was all set to be a GA. And then he goes wild in the air raid and he's in the NFL. And he looks like he's having a ton of fun with it. And obviously, I don't think they're the same personality. But I think there is a sense of, yeah, everybody gave up on me. And I would be curious if he, how he'd answer this is because he's so confident. But was there ever a time where it was just like,

I don't think I'm going to get the chance to actually do what I know I can do, or did I really ever doubt that once I got there, that I could do it? Because the things he did well early on, you know, was the first game he played in. They played against Miami. Miami was a top 10 team. And the two best plays he made were audibles. They weren't throws. They weren't, you know, like, and those were game-changing moments.

But they were all mental things. So I think it took him a while to really get to the last month of the season where all of a sudden it was like, okay, now he can really operate as opposed to he can really be really pilot this system as opposed to just kind of being the smart, savvy guy. There was a different level of it. You wrote at the beginning of the piece that you wrote last week that obviously there are no sure things when it comes to quarterback prospects. But with Joe Burrow, you were very confident that he would be that guy for the Bengals and that he would change their. fortunes. When did you start believing that and why? I started a little bit. So in the spring of 2019, I went down to Baton Rouge to do a story on Joe Brady. Joe Brady had just gotten there. I knew Ed was run really well. Ed talked about him, you know, was effusive in praise about how

Joe has answers and this and that. I went down there for a week and I spent time with Brady, but I saw them in Spring Ball and I was like oh my God and I'd heard Ed talk about how like strong Jamar Chase is like I know the part about like Les Miles recruited him as a DB if Jamar Chase wanted to be a running back

I don't know if he would be like I have so much respect for Debo but it wouldn't shock me if he could be Debo Samuel you know like that if they chose to do that like he is They have similar traits that there's a feel to their game that I think you absolutely could make that comparison

Yeah and remember Like Jamar Chase is like lower body strong like a running back. Jamar Chase is also what, is he still 20? You know, what is he, you know, like I'm not saying he wants to be, you know, wants to push Joe Mixing out of the way. But I remember seeing that. I was like, ooh, I get all the stuff he's been telling him about Jamar Chase. But then I was like, man, Joe, Joe Borough throws it better than I thought. And I was around Jimmy the dad.

We got together at that point because Jimmy had taken the year away or kind of, I guess essentially retired at that point from being the defensive coordinator. at Ohio U. And so, you know, I had some more intel on on Burrow at that point. But I got to admit like, you know, all right, so I thought they were going to have a really, really good season. And I thought, okay, they were going to flip the narrative of what LSU's offense has been. But I didn't truly get that he was going to be like a megastar guy. I think it was until they got to Georgia and played Georgia.

And it was the SEC title game. And you saw Georgia has a ton of athletes and they blew them off the field and you saw his presence. And then the more time, like I remember thinking up till around then, I was like, I remember, they had already beaten Alabama and Tuscaloosa. But I remember thinking, all right, Clemsons, you know, they got Trevor Lawrence. They're going to, you know, they're going to be the hard out. And who knows, maybe Ohio State will beat them. Ohio State's loaded. But with Georgia, I was like, man, they got it.

I don't know how good their defense is because they had their moments where they were, they had some hard. games like old miss torched them and a few other teams gave them problems but i remember coming out of that and i was like man this guy is is way better than people realize and it kind of just grew from there and then the more i worked on this book the more i talked to people inside the program about especially about joe was um you know i can't you know Andrew luck was is a physically bigger guy Andrew Locke probably runs better. He didn't have the talent around him that certainly Joe did in college, but I was like, man, Andrew Luck, you know, he has everything.

But like to me, just because of the intangibles, and I remember saying this on Draft Night, I was like he is going to completely turn that franchise around. I don't care if it's the Bengals. I don't care. You could send him to any, you know, to Jacksonville. You could send him to the Jets. Joe Burrow will be able to do things because he's just,

He's got, he's smarter, he's got more presence, and I think he's just a mentally tougher person than just about any quarterback prospect we've seen come through. This is a very hard question to answer. Why do people want to be close to him? Why do people want to be around him in your estimation? Because that's the thing that's jumped out to me. Not only are the Bengals successful, it seems like the Bengals have become an environment that people really love being in. You listen to the players that are talk about it. I think that Zach Taylor has established some of that feel.

But I also think the big part of that is Joe Burrow. The bar, when they went to the bar a couple of weeks ago, it was like, well, that was a very cool touch, you know, like to respect the community that has been loyal for you. I think some of it is, like, people really kind of, if you look at the TV ratings especially, they fell in love with that LSU team. I think some of it had to do with they are worn out from the Alabama Clemson every year. and here is a completely upstart kind of thing that was a little bit like the NCAA March Madness team that I'm not saying they're like Florida Gulf Coast but there was an element of like they're fun you know there's a lot there's a fun team to watch how they play and they're aggressive offensively and I think with Joe there's a newness to him right and also there's a lot of other things that I think resonated well when he when people saw him get emotional at the Heisman I think it was touching when people saw him get emotional at the Heisman I think it was touching when people saw that he raised like a million dollars for a a community in need and how he did it um i think they respected that so i think the more they found out about his story but i just think there is a you know there's an element of joe's story that is is like i don't even want to call it quirky cool

but like you see some of the meme stuff with joe whether it's the cigar or i don't even know if this still floats around but like big dick joe and from that time and you know there are certain guys who i think kind of break through because they don't it doesn't seem expected right josh allen is whatever he is six five two 50 and can throw it a hundred yards right and so it's like it's not to say that people don't you know have respect for that but i think there are certain guys and and with burrow again i don't want to underestimate his physical talent because he really is a terrific athlete. But I think there is some element of people can identify with him a little more than maybe because

they know he, yeah, he was at Ohio State. It's not like he was a no star. But I think there is something of like we love that he was a guy nobody had on the radar and he's blown up and he's taken. Like there's a newness there. Like since when are people like like locked in on the Bengals? You know, if he was, if he got drafted by the Cowboys and Dak got hurt and he took over, yeah, there would be a following because it's the Cowboys.

But my guess is the fans who are not the fans of, you know, Steelers, Packers, Cowboys, you know, these huge brand NFL brands, I think there's like, ooh, we're going to root for the Bengals because of because of Joe and Jamar and they look like they're having a lot of fun. I'll just go very quickly through my lifespan with Joe Burrow as a way to kind of illustrate this. I, the first time I watched him play, I remember watching him play intently was against Texas in that night game. And he made a couple plays in that game where the pocket mobility was so evident. And it clearly physically was his superpower as a player. That has absolutely translated.

I am the most casual college football fan you'll ever meet. I watch it in passing when the semifinal games happen. I tune into them and I enjoy them. I found myself going out of my way to watch that LSU team that year because of the way it felt to watch them. And when that moment happens in the national championship game where he plays that way, they play that way, the cigar thing happens. It does feel different and it does feel special. And it creates, I don't know, I don't know if it's an affection. I don't know if it's an intrigue, a curiosity.

There was something that drew me to that team that I never truly understood as someone who doesn't watch a lot of college football. And then I watch him play in the NFL, and I think I kind of get distracted and misled by my own biases when it comes to what I prefer in quarterbacks. I watch Justin Herbert play, and it's like, that's my guy. I want the biggest, strongest guy who can throw it 100 yards. And it was so easy to look at that and say that's going to work and watch Joe Burrow as a rookie and say, you know, the pocket mobility stuff is still there if he doesn't have the best arm. and maybe understate and underrate what he could possibly be and how transformative he could ultimately be. I forgot why I was attached to that LSU team.

You kind of have that, I don't know, there's like a dissonance between that feeling and then watching him physically as a player that can occasionally get hard to overcome. And then when I watched them this year, it's a reminder of why that feeling of watching that team at LSU can overcome whatever questions you have about his physical gifts compared to other people.

It's just hard to parse. And I think that's why it's an interesting conversation because it's hard to truly nail down what makes him special, but it's obvious that he is. Yeah, there's a little bit, like I go back to the basketball background, right? Obviously, a lot of people go back to Mahomes with the baseball background because, you know, some of it comes from his dad, some of it's just how he, you know, how he plays.

But I think with him, and I'm not saying he's like a Steph Curry that's too far, you know, down a different road. But there is, I feel like it is a, was a fun style they played. I feel like it can't, it personified in him. And it's like, you know, in that story, I was like, it's what he, it's not just these stories are about who he is, but it's also what he's become. Because I think a lot of times we define somebody as this is who they are as opposed to what they become, right?

And so I'm glad you brought up Justin Herbert. So Justin Herbert, you know, having covered a lot of his games and gotten to know him some, like no one ever questioned any, you know, any physical skill. He runs well. He's got an amazing arm. He's incredibly intelligent, both in the classroom and, you know, football-wise. I think the things that you'd hear a lot just being around the team was, you know, the presence, the leadership question mark. Like, was he too nice? It's some of the same stuff you'd hear about, you know, Marcus Mark.

Toyota was like, is he too nice? You know, that kind of thing. And you wondered, like, if he makes a mistake, how will he respond to it? Whereas with Joe, it was like the total command and the total belief felt like it was different. You could feel him. And so it's been cool to live in L.A. and see Justin Herbert, who's arguably the nicest college ball player and he's everybody is thriving and, you know, being even better than probably everybody was hoping he would be.

but with this and how the Bengals play and how he you know it's like in a lot of ways it's very poetic where Burrow went you know he went back to Ohio he went to you know a program that a team that had been such a punchline for so long he doesn't have a particularly good offensive line so we now we know he's got to like rely on guile and toughness even more than you probably normally have to as a quarterback in the NFL. Yeah. And so I think a lot of those things, you know, that play, remember two weeks ago where he evades the rush and he's running. He's just about to go out of bounds. And then it was like the play got overshadowed by the premature whistle, right? And but that was like a very like Joe Burrow kind of thing where it's like he's about to go out of bounds.

And it's like, you know, there, again, I don't know where the Joe Montana part because I think they're probably really different personalities and mentally. but like there is just something where it's like all right this guy doesn't have the wow physical tools but you know supposedly joe montana was also a great basketball player growing up and i think there is something to those guys who just are very comfortable at making plays like a little off platform but also i mean how they operate and i think that is hard for scouts to to quantify right you know it's like a little off platform but also i mean how they operate and i think that is hard for scouts to quantify right you know it's like I don't know who fits into that category of like most of the guys who I feel like are top quarterbacks in the NFL. Let's take Brady out of it for the moment. But like they all have some kind of Superman trait, whether it's like Aaron Rogers. Okay, he has armed talent like nobody else has ever had. Even Kyler.

Kyler's short, but he is like super explosive. And you go through a lot of these guys. They're either 6-5-240 or the guys who are like Mahomes, you know, like they have some kind of ridiculous. skill. I mean, Joe, in a lot of ways, plays like he plays like a 32-year-old, not a guy who's just 25, and he's just found the comfort zone that I think is so hard for these guys to get to. Stylistically, he reminds me of Roma. Like, that's what it is. His superpower is, is it being evasive. It's being evasive in those moments, and it's quick decision-making. And when you combine that with the confidence that he has, you get what we see right now, and you get what's

transform the Bengals. Bruce, thank you very, very much for the time. It's awesome to get your insight on this. Again, this is a subject you know really better than anybody. So thank you very much for taking the time out. It's great to chat with you. My pleasure. I enjoy talking.

I mean, it's been a fun to watch this extension of the college team kind of flourish in the NFL. It's been really cool to see. Awesome. Thanks a lot, Bruce. I appreciate it. Anytime, Robert. Thank you.

All right. I'm thrilled now to welcome longtime NFL head coach assistant coach, long-time NFL mainstay, and someone who worked with Matthew Stafford for a number of years as the offensive coordinator in Detroit, Scott Lennan. Thank you very much for doing this, Scott. I appreciate the time. It was great to be here. Thanks for having me. So I really just wanted to talk to you about working with Matthew and just about your time with him, what struck you about it, and what it's like to watch the person you work with so close to kind of have the success that he's had this year.

So let's go back to the beginning. I mean, you were there in Detroit as part of that staff when he was drafted. I mean, obviously he was a big time recruit coming out of high school. He was pretty much the clear cut number one pick in that draft. Just walk me through what the process was like of picking him that season and just kind of incorporating him into what you guys wanted to be in Detroit. Yeah, I'll tell you, to be honest with you, the reason I came to Detroit to be the offensive coordinator with Jim Swartz was he promised me he was going to draft Matthew. you. So that's the truth. And there were a couple other things I was interviewing for and all that stuff.

But, you know, having followed his career at Georgia, watching him play, it was clear that he was going to be, you know, really one of the elite players in this league for a long time. One of the problems with being taken first in the draft means you took over for a team that struggled, you know, unless it's a different sort of stance where someone traded for that pick, you know, he, he came to Detroit the year after they were old in 16. So there was a lot of work to be done. But, you know, Jim, his vision when going into it was to, you know, build the team around him. And, you know, it was clear when we were interviewing him and going through that process that he was, you know, he's just one of those guys. He just has the elite personality, elite talent combined. And you don't have that, you know, generational talent or whatever you want to call.

You don't have that every year. know, especially not in quarterback position. So, you know, they did have Calvin Johnson on the roster. So being able to be around, you know, two of the greatest NFL players, in my opinion, you know, during my years there, was great. But Matthew specifically was one of those guys that immediately gave you credibility and made you relevant as a football team.

And even from the beginning, he just had that innate ability to keep us in games, even games that maybe we weren't prepared to win or be competitive in. But he was always gave us a chance and, you know, never forget some of the games that he grinded through, you know, dodging, dodging bullets back there in the pocket and doing all that stuff. And, you know, maybe, you know, make the plays he was able to make.

I just think talent-wise coming out, he just had, you know, I've never seen an arm like his. I think there's guys that certainly can rival that now that have come to league. But at that time, you know, he had the, He had the arm of Elway and the release of a marino. I just really thought he was that kind of guy. That's such an interesting. I was going to ask you to try to describe what makes his arms special.

What are the qualities about it that separate it from other guys that we would say, oh, he has a great arm? Well, it's not just a strength. It's his ability to throw the ball from different slots. You know, he can change his arm angle. You know, if a defender's trying to reach up to bat a ball, he can throw it around him. You see guys doing that, Mahomes, and some of the guys do that. But, you know, Matthews done that from the beginning.

And it's not just showing off. It's just he does it because he can. And so for him, you know, those are the kind of things that you like, you'd like to say you can teach that. But I would, you know, I would bet against it that it's going to be a good policy with some, some guys. With him, he always had that ability. But he could throw the ball as hard as he wanted

or with as much touch as he needed and get the job done. You know, it's just, it's just a, it's just kind of amazing talent. I think the other thing is his release. I don't think people talk about how fast he gets the ball out. You know, the no look pass has been around for a long time. I've been around guys that do it.

You know, these great players do that. But he's able to get the ball out before a guy can reach out and knock the ball down or before the DBs you know sees the ball coming you know it's already there because he's able to get the ball off so quick so I think that's really what separates him the combination of the arm talent and the uh and the release watching him this year you know a huge part of that offense with the Rams and a huge reason he's been able to open up what they do is because of his ability to kind of get to those backside dig routes and some of those other just backside concepts in their offense that a lot of quarterbacks can't get to you because they don't

of the arm and they don't have that release time. When I was watching some clips from that 2011 season earlier today, you see that. You see his ability to kind of play with his eyes and get to the backside of certain things and make throws that people really can't do. Most quarterbacks can't pull off. Is that something that you noticed was just available to you guys in your offense that a lot of other quarterbacks wouldn't be able to make available? Yeah, I think the biggest thing with that is he has the ability to attack all parts of the field.

you know, some quarterbacks have to work half a field. Some some quarterbacks like to, you know, we say east and west, the horizontal passing game is a little more effective for guys. Matthew can attack them all. You know, he can attack the short areas, the intermediate areas, and then he can attack those vertical seams, you know, 30, 40, 50 yards downfield and throw it on a frozen rope. And that's not anything you can coach.

It's something you draft or you trade for. and that's what, you know, that's what Matthew was able to do. And he just, you know, it's not that you're going to throw the ball deep all the time with him, but the fact that he can get the ball to a guy that gets behind the defense, not just 30 or 40 yards down the field, but, you know, 50 or 60 yards down the field. I mean, some of those play action passes take a long time to develop. And, you know, if the safety thinks he's throwing that intermediate deep over or whatever that is, he has the ability to throw that post later than other guys.

Certainly, he can't wait too long, but those are a lot of the big plays that come with that system. And there's a great system. It fits him really well that he's running there for the Rams. And, you know, it certainly was probably a big reason for them offensively to get back to that, you know, that play action shot ability in their offense. And, you know, the other thing about Matthews got a point guard kind of eyes in football, so you've got to be able to see it's 53-yard wide field. and you've got to be able to see it all. And he's able to basically priff the defense. In his drop, he can see a safety not backpedal.

And so he knows he's going to have that deep over. We can see a safety back pedal to the deep half, and then he knows he's eliminated that play. But some of those plays have to be there pre-snap, have the table set for guys. In his game, he's able to make those plays after the snap and kind of reassess how the defense's. is trying to disguise, and that's how he attacks.

That's so interesting, because you can see that. You can see that with kind of the way his head moves on certain plays and just that, that watching it unfold after the snap happens instead of diagnosing it before the snap. When did you realize he could do that, and how did you realize he could do that? Well, he was doing at Highland Park High School, you know, and we studied it all. You know, I know his high school coach very well. my son played for him. When I went to Dallas, my son played for him in senior year.

So I got to know him through the process of drafting, Matthew, but also, you know, obviously we watched, you know, seasons upon seasons of his college tape. And so he saw all that. And then, you know, when we had him in Detroit, we really had to build things around his skill level, you know, Calvin's, you know, had some other guys that we added to the mix. But we were, you know, we were, you know, just amazed at the fact.

that you could, you know, throw a third down and, you know, 15 past, you know, 50 yards downfield and beat the safety with a big-time throw. And those kind of plays, you don't, you know, you don't put in the game plan for a lot of guys. Was there a particular route or particular type of throw that you guys could go to maybe in that 2011 season where he was so successful that you just thought he threw particularly well? That just, it sticks in your mind when you think of Matthew Stafford as a thrower? Yeah, I just think, you know, what he's able to do, you know, I mean, not a specific throw. I think the throws down the seams, I call them the rails, which is, you know, you get a lot of cover two.

We got a lot of it with Calvin as our receiver. So to get those, attack those zones, you've got to have an elite player, especially when it's, you know, a third down situation where they're just saying you can't throw the ball in those parts of the field because it's going to take an elite throw to do it. And so I would think, you know, I go back to, you know, some of the throws he made, you know, even in 2013, we had a big win against Dallas at home. And he literally, you know, in our last drive on an obvious passing situation, he literally moved 10 yards to his right and threw the ball 50 yards on a line to his left for the play that probably won us the football game. And I was standing right there on the sideline, watching them. the ball in there and I couldn't believe he made the throw. I couldn't believe he tried it, and I don't think they

could believe it because he completed it. I don't think. You ought to look that one. That's the best throw I've ever seen live. And him being able to make those kind of plays was incredible. He was scrambling to his left. We were playing Cleveland in a home

game. He scrambled to his left near Calvin 50, 60 yards downfield. And he was running to his left and he threw it on the run, 60 yards. the air when well he was you know and it was a perfect pass for a touchdown you know most guys are out of that business you know so you know there's some things that he he did and i just shake my head out and uh and he's still he's still doing it to this day i mean i think he's hit in the prime of his career a lot of people um are realizing the quarterbacks as long as they stay healthy

um hit hit hit some pretty prime years you know in their 30s late 30s and you know i was who seen the greatest of all time have some of his best years. years it was 40. So he's built for this game and I think he's hit hitting his prime and, you know, now he's got a really good, really good supporting cast around him on his new team. And you talk about staying healthy. And it's so funny now when you look back on it because, I mean, I think he had something like nine straight seasons, eight straight seasons of playing 16 games. But early in his career, he was hurt a decent amount. You know, he missed most of his second season. And one of the conversations that people always have about,

him that had played with him or coached him in the past is that he's just one of the toughest guys that can play that position. Where did you see that manifest? Where did you see his toughness and just his kind of physicality at that spot really shine? Well, I mean, there's some specific plays that I can think about that are pretty, you know, pretty telling with that with him. But I just think it's on a daily basis. You would never see him. You know, it's like he never wanted them to see he was hurt, even when he was hurting. He's that guy that always gets right back up. You'd find out, you know, the day after or Tuesday that his, you know, ankles all swollen and all that stuff,

you never even knew he was hurt during the game. So that was his mentality. You know, I think a lot of people probably didn't see this game, but he actually had a grade three separation of his shoulder on the last play of the game against Cleveland at home. They called time out to challenge the play because it was a, you know, as a pass interference in the end zone, we were able to score a touchdown off the next play because he went back in. And it was his non-throwing shoulder, but it couldn't take a snap at the play we had scripted.

He had to go under center. And he took the snap basically with one hand through the ball for a touchdown. And then, you know, for, you know, one of the great plays I've ever seen. And then, you know, he was, most guys wouldn't have made it, you know, back on the field for any reason that that play right there sticks out in my mind. Just personality wise, you know, I remember reading this story that Seth Wicker Sham wrote on ESPN.com this summer and just how, I don't have guarded as the right word, but Matthew wasn't necessarily effusive in how reflective he was about his time in Detroit. And it wasn't really overly sherry, I guess, is how I would describe it. Just being around him day to day, how would you describe his demeanor in the building, what it was like to have him be the quarterback of an offense that you're coordinating, just what it was like to have him be that presence? Well, he's very unique.

I think he's very, you know, elite in his leadership qualities. And it's not because he's the most flamboyant person or the guy that's always, you know, hollering and, you know, doing all that stuff. He does it by example. He's, you know, the first one in and last one out, he's been that his whole life wherever he's been. Those things are in aiding guys like that. But I think his ability to connect with the whole building, you know, his teammates would consider him as one of their best teammates they've ever had.

I would say that because he was, you know, for a guy that was the number one recruit coming out and the number one pick, he was so grounded, so humble, but he had, you know, he has that kind of assassin personality as a competitor when he's out there. You know, and I think he, I think he's very underrated as a guy that really kind of fires people up. You know, he doesn't have to do it necessarily all the time, but when it's time to get it done, Matt, you know, is the kind of guy that steps it up. And you'll see him going the huddle.

He's got that Joe Montana kind of look in his eye. And it's time to go to work. And everybody believes in him and ability for him to take him down the field and, you know, win the game. So, you know, there's not one area that I would say that he had to work on in that area. And that was just kind of staying on the field

and kind of being able to basically they stayed durable enough to where he was there day in and day out. And I think that's what he was able to do is he got bigger and stronger. You know, some of the things he had to do after his first couple of years in the league. And obviously, as somebody who worked with him every day, you guys are watching tons of film together talking about what he's seeing, how he's seeing it. What was unique about the way he sees the game, the way he processes the game compared to other quarterbacks that you've worked with in the past?

I just think he knows how to affect the defense. You mentioned earlier about his eyes. You know, for him as a young player to be playing, for example, a cover two defense, the underneath defenders that Sam Mike and Will linebackers are basically vision on the quarterback. And they're taught to, you know, rob his eyes, Rob parts of the field that he's trying to throw when people play that specific coverage. So for him to be able to know he's got what he needs to throw, you know, know, a little choice route or option route against the will linebacker and to make him truly believe he's not throwing the ball there. And to be able to get the ball to that person in such a

efficient and timely manner, a combination of looking the defense off and then the quick release and the strong arm. You can't, you know, you can drill that. You get guys better at that. But he was he was the lead at that from the day he got here. So I think that's the things that make him like, you know, it just makes you scratch your head and stuff, you know, where he picked that up. And that's why I think of him as, you know, he's like Magic Jansen out there.

He can just, you know, make everybody better around him because he sees the field so well. And he knows how to get the ball to people against certain coverage. It's, I'm sure for you, as somebody who worked with him closely for a number of years, watching him do what he's doing now isn't necessarily surprising. But there are some people out there who are watching what he's doing this season and probably think, well, there's something different about Matthew Stafford.

You know, this is, he's a better quarterback now than he was during his time in Detroit. When you watch the guy that you're watching right now, is this the quarterback that you coached for those number of years? Would you say he's the same guy? Oh, he's, I mean, he's gotten better every year of his career. And, you know, one of the things that was the hardest thing. for him was he felt the expectation of, you know, producing, he was the number one peck, the franchise quarterback.

And so he was aggressive. There was never a throw he didn't think he could make. And, you know, sometimes that would, you know, would cost him, you know. But he learned through his tie in the league that he had to sometimes even as good as he was, he had to manage games. And, you know, so you can see where he had to, he. dialed it back a couple of years. I think it was affected for the team success, got to the playoffs a couple of times in Detroit after that 2011 season. And he didn't have like monster

numbers or anything like that. He was he was really just keeping the game close and winning at the end. I don't think there's a better quarterback that I've worked with that if it's a one-score game, he's going to get it done in the fourth quarter of him. He's his best one as best as needed. So I think that's a combination of what, you know, he was able to do early in his career and how he adjusted in the middle of his career. And now he's, I think he's hit his stride. It's great timing. It's a great system, I think, for him to be playing in, you know, with the Rams. You know, I don't think anyone's done a better job of coaching, you know, than Sean McVeigh this year as far as, you know, bringing this great talent in and having him just become, you know,

the, you know, I call him MVP of the, of the, of, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, he was, he was able to produce and not have to take a couple years to get it down. And I think there was an expectation that was going to be immediate. Um, and, and, uh, you know, his blood pressure is at the point now where, you know, he's, he's, he's in control. He doesn't have to, he doesn't feel the way of this world. And there's times where he throws the ball away and I'm just like, you know, the young Matt staff, would have tried to probably thrown that dig, you know, back when he was 21 years old. But he doesn't make those mistakes. He still makes some once in a while, but they're not careless. And that's, you know, I'm just, you know, just proud of watching, you know, mature as a, as a player and as a husband, father and all those things. I think a lot of that stuff in his life has, you know, really been a big part of his maturation process. That was the last thing I was going to ask you. I mean, as somebody who obviously has an affection for him, really enjoyed working with him,

worked with him for a number of years when he was young, how rewarding is it to kind of see him on this stage and doing it at this level and potentially being on the brink of winning a title and really kind of changing the way we probably talk about Matthew Stafford. Yeah, I just think it's so fitting. You know, I probably care about him as much as any player have been a part of.

of just because he was, you know, came into the league in his first five years. I think he made a lot of progress as a player and he learned a lot about the game. But for him to be able to be at this point in his career, the timing of him going to a franchise that is pretty much built to play for a championship going in. He just needed to be, he was kind of the missing piece and to be able to see him be able to go in there and do what he did. You know, I just think it's so, you know, I just think it's so ironic that, you know, Cooper Cup has, the year he has, you know, NFL receiving record and all that stuff. And, you know, he did that with Calvin Johnson when he was just, just a kid, you know, and, you know, it's not, it's not just a coincidence that those two guys' quarterback was Matt.

So, I just think it's great now he's got this opportunity. You know, had to get his first playoff win, and now he's three playoff wins into his season. And, you know, one of the first playoff win, and, you know, went away from being a Super Bowl, you know, champion quarterback. And nothing would make me more proud or happier than that to happen. Awesome. Scott, I really appreciate the time. Thank you very much for doing this. You have such a unique perspective on this just because of, you know,

how closely you work with him and it's not something we can get anywhere else. So thank you so much for taking the time out. And hopefully we can catch up down the road. Great. Appreciate it. All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much for listening. Sincerely appreciate the time.

Thank you to Bruce. Thank you to. Scott. Again, we've got a ton of great stuff coming your way this week. A lot of Super Bowl conversations getting very in depth on every single aspect of this game. So please come back and check that out. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. Please subscribe to The Athletic.com slash football show. We have a ton of great Super Bowl coverage up right now and we'll continue to have that throughout the week. For now, we'll be back tomorrow. Talk to you later. This was the athletic football show.