The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Julio Jones trade & ranking the top NFL coaches with Lindsay Jones & Nate Tice

Episode Date: June 8, 2021

How would we rank the top coaches in today's NFL? Who are the best up-and-coming names? Who are the best play callers? Robert Mays welcomes Nate Tice and Lindsay Jones for part 3 of their list series as they bring their 2021 coaching superlatives to the table, plus everyone reacts accordingly to the Julio Jones trade from the Atlanta Falcons to the Tennessee Titans.Get all-access to The Athletic with a special discount for new subs at theathletic.com/footballshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today, my good friends, Lindsay Jones and Nate Tights. Lindsay, how are you doing over there? How's the puppy treating you? Getting enough sleep over there? How are you?

I'm absolutely not getting enough sleep, but she is freaking adorable and really fun. Nellie is doing great. But yeah, she likes to wake up as soon as the sun is up, which here in Denver is about 515, maybe 5.30 if I'm lucky. So, yeah. Not the best. Molly and I have an understanding with each other that if I feed her at six, she goes back to sleep for an hour, which is really nice.

I'm glad that we've reached that common ground. Nate, how are you? How's Midge? How's life? Midge is good. Midge had a traumatizing morning with somebody in our backyard and then I got to run around like Fred Flintstone on our slick floor. So that was a pretty interesting morning for Midge.

I'm excited to get the Take Triumvirate back here with us three coming back. And maybe it's not a draft, but maybe it's something else that we can talk about. So the stakes are a little bit lower. We're going to talk about coaches today. And I didn't want to do another draft. I didn't want to do another ranking just because it felt like we've done that. We didn't want to go back to that well too often. So what we're going to do today is kind of coach superlatives.

Not a ranking, but a few different categories, almost as a check-in about the league and the coaches and the landscape as it stands right now. We're going to talk about the best coaches and coaches that we think might be on the hot seat, some of them were underrated, under-talked-about position coaches, coordinators, all of that kind of stuff. Before we do that, though, obviously some huge news happened yesterday. Nate, you and I talked about Julio on Friday's show. I knew we would talk about him today, so that's why I didn't feel like we needed to scramble the Jets yesterday. A team that we thought might trade for him, a team that in our minds made sense to trade for him. The Tennessee Titans trade, a second round pick, and some change for Julio Jones.

they take on all of his salary, which was one of the considerations that we talked about when it came to who might deal for him, who could, what teams would have to create some room, which the Titans are going to have to. Lindsay, we haven't talked to you at all about this. What were your reactions to the Julio Jones trade? And what do you think this means for Tennessee? Yeah, I mean, I think it made a lot of sense just in terms of a landing spot for a team that really could use him. When I think about what that Tennessee offense could look like, just like physically, look like and what they could be in their best form. It's really terrifying, right? And if you are Matt Eberfluse or some of these guys that we might end up talking about today, that's terrifying

to know that you're going to have to try to figure out Julio Jones and AJ Brown and, oh, yeah, Derek Henry. I mean, I think there's just, it unlocks a ton of really exciting possibilities if you're the Titans. You know, I think if you're the Falcons, you probably wish you would have gotten more, but this was kind of the reality of it. You weren't going to get a first-round pick at this point. I don't think anybody was offering that. That doesn't seem like was ever on the table. And, you know, I think if you're, you know, some of these other teams in the NFC, specifically the NFC West, I think there were some, you know, intriguing possibilities. You think about, you know, the Seahawks or the 49ers in a reunion with Kyle Shanahan that you

kind of got excited about those possibilities. And obviously those are all off the table now. But I really like the fit in Tennessee. And, you know, for the Falcons, it's kind of the best they could hope for at this point where this was an unworkable situation. They had to move on. The drama is done. they're going to get into mandatory mini camp without the Julio Jones questions. And, you know, it's always kind of sad when a best player in a franchise, or one of the best players in franchise history is gone. But it kind of had to happen. And it's probably for the best that it happened now, the first week of June,

without this dragging on and on and on any longer. So I want to talk about the Falcons perspective here in a second. But Nate, I wanted to ask you about the Titans because there's one thing we haven't really talked about in regard to all of this. Like Lindsay said, if you picture the guys on the depth chart and what the the starting 11 looks like for Tennessee. It's pretty damn good. I mean, this is a group that since over the last two seasons,

they rank fourth in EPA per play, and that includes the Marcus Mario to start. With Ryan Tannihill, they've been arguably the most efficient offense in the league. And now the offensive line is fairly similar. You lose Jono Smith. You switch out the kind of roles change a little bit. Anthony Firkser, his profile rises.

He's going to get a lot of those snaps. It's a downgrade of one you can live with. and now you're swapping out Corey Davis for Julio Jones. In a lot of ways, the personnel, the players are as good as they've been since Ryan Tannenhill arrived there. And you can get pretty excited about that. The one huge thing here that I think has been under discussed is that Arthur Smith is no longer in Tennessee. He is not the offensive coordinator. He was so good at that job that he is now the head coach of the team that just traded Julio Jones,

which we'll address here in a second. But the guy who took over for him is Todd Downing, who was their old tight ends, coach and Nate, someone you worked with very closely when you guys were in Oakland together. How do you think Todd's tendencies as a play caller, his skill set as an offensive coach, now fit with this personnel in Tennessee because I think that is now the biggest question mark remaining about this offense and its ceiling in 2021. Yeah. And when we were in Oakland, I mean, you remember kind of like the strength of our team was

definitely on the offensive line and then we just had some fun pieces. Derek did a good job. and had a couple of really good solid receivers on the outside with Crabtree and Amari. And with this, I mean, Julio and A.J. Brown are a little half tier better than that, maybe a full tier better than that package, especially the tight end room as well. And I think with Todd is when he's bounced to Minnesota, now he's in Tennessee and he was a tight end coach in both of those places, is now he's been exposed to maybe a whole new realm of play calling and maybe design. And I think that's why.

Very different types of offense. Very, very different. And that's, Todd is a, he's from Scott Lenehan tree. I mean, if you were to like look at from that perspective, and Lennahan was actually my dad's office coordinator of Minnesota. So it's kind of something I'm very familiar with. And it's with that offense is more, you know, staticy, two by two a lot, three by one. We don't really condense the formations. We kind of like, you know, spread to run and then condensed the past kind of a lot of play action. But the play action concepts for the true vertical play action concepts, touchdown to check down. And a lot more just. two by two dropback half field to read stuff and I'm kind of get a little too nitty gritty here. But with Todd really it's kind of as he's gone on and now he's he was with Kevin Stephansky in Minnesota as well. And with those types of offenses, those are the Kubiak Shanhan tree. I mean, more or less, you know, Arthur Smith has been a little bit of everything. They have the same DNA. DNA. Yeah. And really everything's becomes so hybrid now. So it's kind of everybody. It's crazy how much, how much blending is happening right now. But I think what Todd is he knows,

he just sees what they accomplish. And Todd's not going to reinvent the wheel. He's smart enough to know that. And I think with these guys and this fit here, the interesting thing to me that I want to see is, is that kind of the Corey Davis thing, why he was so important to the offense a little bit was the dirty work. He could play every rep and do the dirty work. And then on the next play, he'd catch those 15-yard dig routes or an outbreak or something of that sort. He was the Z.

And now I'm curious to see how Julio and A.J. Brown, because, they're both 1A types and who's going to do the dirty work now on some of that run stuff. So now I want to see what the steps are going to be. Is he going to spread it out a little more to maybe not get him inside the formation to where he has to fit up? Like Julio is not going to fit up on duo. I love Julio. But he might do it on like a third down, but he's not going to do it on like every play like Corey Davis was asked to do sometimes. So that's something I'm interested to see.

But I think Todd's not going to really reinvent the wheel. I think they're going to see more of hip slot formations, which is where two tight ends are on one side. And then Corey Davis and Julio, or Corey Davis, I'm sorry, AJ Brown and Julio are on the other side. And I can really see that. That gets that sliding tight end action that they really like with the split zone, with the bootleg stuff.

So I think those formations are going to be a little more prevalent where they're going to really overloads you and really declare. Are you going to run zone against this? Because back then with Moss when he was rolling, everybody had to run too high. Everyone was running cover two. And then that's why the Vikings had always had a good run game because it was the softest boxes.

Well, I think this Tennessee Titans run game is a little better. than any of those Minnesota run games when they have Derek Henry pound the rock against these soft boxes. So I'm curious. I know Todd, but I'm really curious to see what he puts together and see the blend of ideas that he has and what he's going to do. So when you look at it again, the offensive talent is striking. We'll see what happens at right tackle. They drafted Dylan Radunes in the second round.

They have Tyra Sanbril there still. So that's the other kind of one position that might be a little bit in flux. But the personnel is very good. And I think, Nate, you and I talked about this a little bit on Friday. When it comes to the Titans window, this makes perfect sense, right? Yep. This team has a 32-year-old quarterback that they paid. They paid Derek Henry.

They're in Win Now mode. They needed a guy like this. Their motivation and urgency to make this kind of deal happens makes total sense. Now they have to do some restructuring. I want to say if they completely restructure Tannahill's deal, bring his base down to like 1.1, it would save them $15 million in cap space this year, which is exactly Julio's base salary. So you can understand them possibly doing that. But Dan Pizzuta wrote this for sharp football stats,

and I thought it was a great point. It's very similar to how I thought about the trade. Now, Lindsay, I'm curious what you think. Even if we think this is a no-brainer move for the Titans, one they probably had to make, considering their lack of receiving talent outside of AJA Brown, even if this is now the best receiving duo in the NFL, which we could talk about in a second.

Does this change the Titans outlook in 2021? Does this really make them a contender, even if it was a type of move they had to make? How do you feel about them now? Now, Lindsay, do you think differently about them now than you did three days ago? I feel a little bit differently about them in the AFC South, which I think was already a very winnable division. The Colts have one very significant question hanging over the Colts right now.

So I think they're the best team in the AFC South today, knowing what we know or knowing what you don't know, was perhaps a better way to put it about the Colts. But in terms of closing that gap with the Chiefs, with the Bills, with the Reds. Ravens with some of these other team, you know, the Chargers, some of these other teams that might even be kind of on the up, you know, on the upswing. I'm not sure if I still think they're a tier or two down from the very best teams and the AFC. And I'm just still not sold completely on their defense as the unit that's going to keep them in games, you know, let's say they're back at Arrowhead Stadium in January. I'm not sure if, you know, having Julio Jones, maybe that enables

you to score, what, seven more points a game. Like, I got to see exactly what the averages would be. gives you a little bit more firepower. But if you're going to be in a playoff game against one of those teams that I mentioned already, you're probably going to have to be scoring a lot of points and you're going to be giving up a lot of points. And I'm just still not quite sure the Titans did enough defensively this offseason to make them significantly better to keep up with those teams we just mentioned. I totally agree. And I think that their ceiling raises with Julio obviously, right? But the range of outcomes is still very wide.

Julio's getting older. He's been banged up a little bit, even though he's. he's been on the field, whether he's been a 100% is a different question. What does Todd Downing do? Can he get the most out of this offense? I think there's still a lot of questions, even if the ceiling has been raised. But I think that it's a bet worth making for this reason. They have two to three years here to do this.

Tana Hills 33. They can get out of Tana Hills deal for $5 million in dead money after the 2022 season. If they restructure this and adds about $7 million to that dead money deal, it's $12 million with the way the cap is going up. you do that. So that to me is the risk that's worth it in this moment, and that's why it's something that you do. You can see the plan for the Titans.

For the Falcons, it's harder to see. And I think that was always going to be the question going into this off season. Do we tear it down or do we go for it? And it felt like by drafting Kyle Pitts at 4, by restructuring Matt Ryan's deal, they were going for it. And I understand that there are financial realities to this, right? they needed to free up some money somewhere. And trading Julio in their minds was the easiest way to do that, even if they didn't want to do it.

But now, what are you really? Like now Russell Gage is your second best receiver, if we don't say Kyle Pitts is a receiver. But their defense is still bad. Now they're sealing on offense is significantly lower. Matt Ryan isn't getting any younger. And I understand that they needed to restructure Matt Ryan's deal just to get enough money to operate. But it almost feels like, shouldn't they? they have just tried to trade Matt Ryan when it was financially doable earlier in this

offseason because it feels like they're in a middle ground now that's going to be difficult to navigate. Nate, if you're Atlanta right now, do you understand the plan? Do you understand what the route out of where they are in this moment actually is? Not really because it seemed like it seems like they try to do two things at once. And as much as I say like, yeah, Calvin Ridley can ascend. Like he's going to be a number one this year easily. He's a number one. type receiver. I thought the situation would make so much sense to bring in a rookie quarterback or a young quarterback.

Even if there's some way you didn't want to trade Matt, but obviously you want to. He had to sit a guy, the young guy might have to sit behind him. I just thought that was the obvious path in a path that made sense, especially in this draft and this spot that they are sitting in. Because if you're having Matt Ryan as your quarterback, you're basically guaranteeing yourself at least a pick in the teens. That's the problem. That is the problem.

is that by virtue of Matt Ryan's presence, you put yourself in no man's land. If you don't like the quarterbacks at four, don't pick a quarterback. I think the people that are like, oh, they absolutely should have picked a quarterback at four. By not doing that, they've screwed themselves. If you don't like one of the guys,

don't pick one of the guys. If your coaching staff isn't sold, you're putting yourself in a bad position. But because Matt Ryan is there, now this gets really weird. Because even if they're a very good offense, they're still not bad enough. And you would have had to eat a decent amount of dead money if you traded Matt Ryan.

But it still feels like the lion's path where you're like, you know what? Thank you very much. Appreciate your service. We're going in a different direction because we don't want to get stuck in that middle ground. I think that's where the Falcons now find themselves. So even if they didn't want to draft a quarterback at four, it still feels like there was a way they could have completely committed to one side where now they're definitely somewhere in the middle.

I mean, how do you feel about the Falcons right now, Lindsay? Well, and I think the thing with the Julio trade is that this isn't something that just popped up in the last 10 days or so. It's not like Terry Fontno and Arthur Blank. They all of a sudden turned on Shannon Sharp's show and heard him say he's out of here and said, oh, my God, really? He's not happy. Like, this has been building for a while. He went through some pretty contentious contract negotiations a couple years ago. It's been, you know, well, I don't want to say he's been unhappy.

He's been unhappy financially for a while, and that's been pretty obvious. So the fact that the Falcons kind of found themselves in the situation the first week of June where they had to trade in just in order to even sign their draft picks, it feels a little like they just mismanaged the plan. And the messaging is just really confusing. And I understand if you're a Falcons fan right now of just being confused about what's going on, what the direction is going to be. And just really sad that you've lost a guy who, you know, he's a surefire Hall of Fame player. And, you know, he had a decade that was awesome where he was legit. legitimately one of the, you know, very best players, not just at his position, but in the NFL for a decade. And you kind of, it ends this way. It ends on a Sunday morning in June without a lot of fanfare, you know. So that's just, so that's just disappointing, I think. And I just think the Falcons probably could have handled the PR side of this better and left where everybody maybe had a better picture of what the plan is going to be long term. It also feels like if they had done this before the draft, could they have gotten more? I mean, just, I think there are a lot of.

for things to consider here. I tweeted this yesterday. Well, you at least build that excitement of like, okay, this is, I mean, even they probably weren't going to get a first round pick before the draft. It just doesn't, didn't seem like that first round pick was out there. But at least you can say, this is the guy that we got and you can start doing that calculation of who won the trade. These are the guys.

And instead we just, you know, you're kind of doing this calculation of like, oh, it's a, it's a second round pick in 2020. I mean, think about what happened with Justin Jefferson and Stefan Diggs. Yeah. I mean, it's so much easier to deal with that blow of losing the guy when you can say, this is the tangible replacement and the tangible plan for why we wanted to trade this guy. I tweeted this yesterday, and I think it's Julio, like you said, Lins, he's one of the best players of the decade. The fact that Julio has been as good as Julio was supposed to be since the moment we heard his name is so, so rare for athletes.

I mean, he is an all-time type talent. And now he's paired with one of the more outlandishly, physically talented receivers in the league in A.J. Brown. Nate, can you remember a receiving duo with this sort of combined physical intimidation factor ability? I mean, they standing on the sideline in their pads next to each other is enough to make a defensive coordinator weep. They're the, they're the all bus team. They're there when they come off off the bus. And Derek Henry. Yeah.

Derek Henry. Yeah, I know. Ferser is actually pretty well-sized. And Jeff Swain. You got to fight over who's first off the bus. Like, who do you send up? That's what it's definitely who we. That's what Jim Tressel.

Jim Tressel used to do, you know, at Ohio State was he for sure did this on purpose. I don't even know if they were good players or not, but he would walk across, you know, they would go arm and arm. And he for sure always just picked the biggest dudes. And I don't even though they were good players, but it was like these, you had to walk across them. They're in their jumpsuits. And it's like, they're really large.

And that's me at Wisconsin. Think of that. But with, actually, I think Julio broke his own record with Muhammad Sunu. like I think that might have been that might be the only other one and you know is Brandon Marshall and Alshan Jeffrey like that I mean that was like those are two huge huge dudes

I can't really think of like the size type because Moss was skinny he wasn't physically and Chris Carter was skinny too so even though they were both six three they were both on a skinnier side the two that were brought up yesterday that I think are great Fitzgerald and Bolden just because with Bolden even though Bolden was smaller than AJ Brown in terms of

overall frame again he was 6-1-220 Brown is like is just a little bit bigger. It's still the physicality of his game combined with Fitzgerald. And the other one that people brought up. Oh, it was ridiculous. And I think overall, those two guys, that might be, that's a really good one. And the other one, Vincent Jackson and Mike Evans.

Those two guys on the outside in Tampa, I forgot about that one when I threw it out there. That's a really good one. 230 and 230, like 6-4, 230 on either side. You can list them on one hand, though. I mean, this is a rare, rare combination. and that is why I'm very excited to watch it. I'm sure we'll talk about this in a ton of different ways over the next couple months. Let's get to the coaches.

And before we get into some of these specific categories, I want to just have a more general discussion. Lindsay, you've covered the league for a long time. Nate, you've been in some of these buildings just about what we should look for in coaches, which qualities end up making the best coaches. Lindsay, as you've kind of cycled through and thought about all the head coaches you've watched up close, whether it's in Denver or elsewhere, have you found some common ground about what you think makes a good one, what they're comprised of? Yeah, I mean,

I think there's a couple of things. I mean, obviously, schematics is a huge part of it and your ability to game plan. And I, you know, I think that can't be discounted. But there's so much of the, so much of the other stuff and the way that you relate to players, the way that you manage a roster. You know, I've, I've been around some really good ones. I've been around some really bad ones. So I think there's just this element of kind of CEO-ness. And I hate that. when we're in the coaching cycle and you hear this like leader of men thing because like what does that what does that mean like I don't know I don't know what that means like I let's just throw that one out forever but there is a tangible thing of like being able to relate to the people and

not just being soap in your head about your scheme and that it's my scheme it's my scheme it's my scheme and you know I think the best coaches are the guys who can relate to people they can relate to the starting quarterback they can relate to the 53 the 53rd guy on the roster they can relate to the guys on the practice squad. And they value the players over the scheme. And that's not to say that they don't trust their play calling and their play design, but you understand that you have to find a way to work with the players that you have. And so often the guys who get into trouble are the guys that are scheme over everything.

And they're trying to fit guys into the wrong places. And they're not looking at guys and saying, what can you do well? How can I get the best out of you? you're trying so hard to fit them into one specific spot within whatever you view a receiver or a running back or a defensive tackle. So I think kind of having that flexibility and really wanting to relate to players and just do what they do best. That's what I tend to look at and say, okay, I think this guy is going to make it versus this

guy who I just, you can see it usually right away within, you know, a couple months. Maybe it, maybe it takes a little bit longer. But you can see it pretty quickly the guys that just probably aren't going to have. what it takes to be kind of the face and voice of that franchise. Sometimes it takes one press conference at Adam Gase's experience. So it can happen pretty fast. Nate, how about you? You've obviously had a lot of experience with this.

Well, your dad aside, what are you looking for in head coaches? No, Lindsay brings up a great point. It's a people business. And that's the misconception I think a lot of coaches have when they're rising that ladder and they're trying to get that head coaching spot. They're like, oh, it's about my scheme. It's about this cool play that I have out there that everyone else is stealing. It's all this stuff I did with my quarterback. It's like, no, it's a people

business. Like Lindsay said, you have to relate to the quarterback, then you have to relate to the DB coach, then you have to relate to the scout that you're talking to. Then you have to relate to the owner. That's another thing that people don't realize. You have to answer to the owner. It's not like, yeah, you have carte blanche over a lot of things, but every week you're going to have that Monday morning meeting or Tuesday meeting with the owner and some owners are a lot worse than others and how they deal with the head coach. And be able to deal that kind of side. that I don't want to say political side, but just more of that business sense size is something that people don't realize, but that coaches need. It's not just being a coach and being wearing

the ball cap and running out and practice and hooting and hooting and hollering and a chalkboard. Yeah. Yep. And then and have a big dip in. Like that's what everyone thinks a ball coach is. And it's really the best ball coach has ever been are very calm and collected. And then as soon as they need to, they flip that psycho switch is a good way to put it. But they can do that. And they have the capability of doing that. You have to wear so many hats. And I agree with what Lindsay says is that some of this isn't just being those ex and those side. It is building a culture and what not. But there is my only concern is when I ever hear that a coach is a culture coach because then I'm like, that's, that means.

That means you just came from a winning program. I've said there's a lot of the show before. But that just means you just won at your last place. And when you say, oh, I was a culture coach. That's all that means. It's like, yeah, a culture coach means winning. Or it means you are not a good schematic coach. And that that's like somebody has a good.

personality. It's like, oh, yeah, he's got a great personality. That's exactly what it is. And so that's one of those things. And say if I were like, if I'm schematically at least, if say I'm watching an offensive coordinator and I'm like, hey, I really like this guy's a potential head coach candidate. And I am, I'm not sitting in those meetings. I don't know always how this guy's going to teach and how this guy's going to coach. But you like, say from a film watching perspective, are his guys playing fast? Are they, do you have two guys running the same route a whole bunch of times? Are the running backs missing a sign? Like, are the offense alignment, letting free, or. Like, like, are the offense alignment, free runners go. Does a QB? Like, is the stuff coming out on time? Does this stuff very sound? And if I'm hiring an

offense coordinator to be my head coach and they don't adjust to stuff, like if they don't, they've given up four sacks in the first half and they just keep running it in the second half, I'd be like, uh-uh. Because if he can't do that as a coordinator, now imagine him as a head coach overseeing so much more,

so many different variables and moving parts. So those are types of things. It's such a total package and it really is a sliding scale. Some years, some of these head coaches have to be a big time CEO, type. And some of years, your top coordinator might just left and you have to guide along a younger coordinator. And then you have to be more of a coach, like an actual coach in the meeting. So that's the thing with being a head coach. It's a little bit of everything. But it's really hard to

be a good one because not every guy can do everything. I think one word that you guys, a lot of things you said kind of blows down to is communication. Communication not only in a forward facing way. I'm not talking about press conference communication. Communicating your scheme to guys. Being a listener, I think is really important. But just I think playing fast. Fascinate is a great example. If you have an offense that all the guys are playing fast, I think quarterbacks are a good example of this. When I watch the LSU offense in 2019,

when I watched the Panthers offense last year, the offense is clearly well communicated to the players on the field. I can tell that Joe Brady communicates his ideas well to his players. Shanahan's offenses play so, so fast. You can tell he's very good at distilling those ideas to the players. Because even if in your mind, it's this beautiful mind bullshit thing, where it's Zach Galfinacus going down the elevator, going down the escalator to play blackjack.

If you can't communicate to someone else, it doesn't matter how smart you are. And I think that's a huge part of it. And the three factors, I would say, also just this is, I think, offense first right now. If I'm picking a head coach right now, I'm going offense first just because I think that's the best way to sustain great offense from season to season.

And great offense season from season to season is why you stay good in the NFL. I still believe that as it currently stands. Then the other things, I had three factors. This applies to most people. But I think curiosity, humility, and flexibility are three things that are almost like necessary. Curiosity in the sense that all the good coaches I've talked to or gotten to know are genuinely curious about where football is going and where ideas are going. They derive joy and excitement from learning about the game.

And that's, I think you listen to like Sean McVeigh talk about ideas or stories I've heard about Sean Payton, when he comes up with something, there is still a pleasure to be found in the process. And I think that's how you find sustainable success. When there are guys that no longer derive excitement from that process, I think that's where you get stale. And I think that's a huge part of it. The other thing, humility, just understanding what you don't know, listening to guys on your staff, soliciting new ideas, being able to delegate in smart ways but not over delegate,

I think is a really important thing. And Nate, like you said, and Lindsay too, flexibility. Are you too rigid with the scheme that you're running? Are you able to mold it around your players? I think those are three things that above all else I would value, even though you could probably say that for a lot of different professions. But I think with coaches, it's really important. All right.

So let's get to some of the categories here. Let's just start at the top. Who do we think is the best head coach in the NFL right now? Let's say non-Belichick division. Or if you guys want to just throw that out the window and not say Belichick is anymore, we can do that too. Lindsay, if we're talking about the best coach in the league right now, where are you landed? Yeah, I mean, I have a really hard time not just landing on Andy Reed for a lot of these, a lot of these categories.

That's totally okay, but explain yourself. Well, and I just, there's something about the longevity that really, really matters. And, you know, Belichick, this is a non-Belichick category. I think we just have to kind of put the caveat that, like, he's the best defensive play caller. He's the greatest, probably the greatest head coach of all time. But when I look at Andy, the thing that I appreciate so much about him, is that he, you know, for a guy that's as old as he is, let's be fair, right? He's not one of the young head coaches.

He is continually evolving who he is as a head coach. He's not even just that, but innovating. Yeah, exactly. It's not just that he's sticking with the times. Be curious. Be curious. Yes, absolutely. And to be fair, he has the ultimate, like, cheat code in a quarterback who makes it.

It's his muse. That's how I've described it. The curiosity is driven because he has a muse pushing the curiosity. But like how many head coaches would be so freaking boring even with Patrick Mahomes? Like what if he had ended up with Jason Garrett? I mean, just something like how depressing would that be, right? But instead he ended up in a place where I mean, when you think about like they had that play last year where, you know, Patrick went in motion and they snapped it to him.

They, you know, that like the, what was the play in the Super Bowl? What did they call it with like the spinning? They did like the, it was like the, Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Just to think to do these really cool, innovative things that there's not a single other coach in the league who is thinking of these things.

So, you know, Andy got a lot of crap for a really, really long time about his game management stuff. Some of that was valid. I think he's gotten better at that in that in terms of, you know, now he has a guy where he wants to be aggressive. He's better at managing the clock late in games. But I just, the way that he, he just has such a good. good feel for players. The guys clearly love playing for him. And, you know, he coaches young.

They play hard for him. So I, for a lot of these, I guess he's the guy that I always come back to. You know, if I get to pick one who's not Belichick, give me Andy. Nate, what would you say? I actually went with Mike Tomlin. And why I went with Mike Tomlin? Because I, when I just was talking about just kind of wearing every different type of hat, he's shown that he can do it. The reinvention is amazing. From him And Harbaugh, I think. They're in their own category with how often they be able to reinvent the, not only the schematics, but the personality of the franchise in certain ways is so amazing to me. That's exactly what I said.

I said he understood the strength of his team all the time. And he changed what he did. When they were rolling with, you know, Bell, Big Band and Antonio Brown, that offensive line, when they moved that two point, the two point line, the extra point line back, he started going for two more. He was like the first coach. He did it week one. Nelson, it's like, we're like, no one's calling him innovative, but it was like, that was

aggressive and innovative because he's on the competition committee for a reason. It's because he is a very, very smart coach. And he handles personalities with the best of them. I mean, now that we have seen some of those guys get out of Pittsburgh, we really see kind of the turmoil that he has kind of kept a lid on and really handled. I mean, they're competitive week in, week out, no matter who they play. No one wanted to play the Steelers. No one wants to play the Steelers.

They're never an easy out, no matter who you play. We can make fun of like, you know, Big Ben's arm or whatnot, but they're still like a tough team. And this past year is they're loaded up on defense. And I just, I just think all those types of things. And when he's had a handle play calling, he doesn't do it so much anymore. But he's stepped in two years ago. He stepped in a little bit. The defense got better when he was calling plays.

It's like the day one, when he got hired from Minnesota, he came in, Dick LaBeau is still that decontor, their de coordinator in Pittsburgh. And, you know, Coach LeBoebos is a legend. He came in and he goes, I'm not changing anything. And it was so drastic. Where he came from to what Dick Lebeau is is about as far away on the ideological spectrum defensively as you could be. Traditional Tampa 2.

I mean, as traditional as it gets. And then Blitzberg. I mean, the original zone blitz defense. And it was like, no, it works.

I'm fine with it. I'm going to just oversee it. I'm good. It was like, that's understanding personalities, not just the players, but other coaches as well. I'm not going to rock any boats.

I'm not going to go, no, this is my defense. This is my scheme. Nope. He understands personalities and go and went from there. I just want to, I have one little tidbit, not a tip bit on Andy Reid, but always my thought with Andy Reid is because he's just been so productive for so long and just no matter who's that quarterback,

no matter who he is around him, is that he's a fantastic talent evaluator. He is one of the best talent evaluators, coach GM, assistant coach, player, whatever analyst. He is one of the best period in football. And that's one underrated thing with Andy Reed. He understands talent. But Mike Tomlin, my pick for the best coach in the league, just because I think, think he just wears all the hats as best as they can. He can be innovative. He can be a great ex-s-nosed coach. And of course, he can handle the personalities with the best of them.

I love that you said, Tomlin. I think there's a tier below Belichick. And I think the tier below Belichick in some order for me is Andy Reid, Mike Tomlin. I think John Harbaugh belongs in there for a lot of the same things you said about Mike Tomlin, Nate. I think that a lot of those things apply to John Harbaugh. And those two guys are outliers to me in what I would look for because they're not offensive guys. But their ability to evolve and mold. in all of these different things, I think, is allowed them to sustain success. And the other guy I would put in that tier of Sean Payton. I just think that what Sean Payton has accomplished in New Orleans year after year, obviously

he has Drew Breeze, but we'll get into this a little bit later. The success they've had offensively when Drew Breeze isn't playing over the last couple of years, I think is such a testament to what Sean Payton can do. I think that is the tier. Do you guys think anyone is set to crack that tier, anyone that's on the brink of getting there? I would say McVeigh. And I think for a lot of the reasons, that we've said.

You know, they've won, I think, 10.75 games a year. They've been about 11 and 5 since he took over with some attrition on the staff. I mean, the fact that he's lost offensive coordinators, he's lost position coaches, he's lost defensive coordinators. The self-awareness to go from Wade Phillips to Brandon Staley and what that did for them, he deserves credit for that. Even though he's not coaching the defense, he deserves credit for that. And I think a lot of the values we talked about with communication, all of that kind

stuff. He's really good at all of those things. I think he's right there on the brink. Lindsay, would you say anyone else is right there kind of working their way into the top group right now? Yeah. I mean, I would throw, I would maybe put Sean McDermott as a guy who kind of fits the mold, the Tomlin Harbaugh kind of mode, mold, obviously a defensive guy, but has that's where culture setter is real, Nate, by the way, what Sean McDermott is doing. That's where it's a real thing. That's a whole organization thing. Yeah. And I think he's done, he's made some really smart hires on his staff, the guys that he's brought in there to run his offense and his defense. You know, obviously he's picked some really good players and put them in really good

position. So I put Sean McDermott there. And then, you know, I just think Kyle Shanahan, we're probably going to talk about Kyle Shanahan here a lot today. I still think, you know, he might still have more to prove in terms of like wearing all of the other hats. But just in terms of like brilliant football mind and the success on the field, I think he's probably in that in that group as well. Nate, how about you? Anybody that you think is on the brink of crack in a top tier?

No, McVeigh would have been another one I would have thrown in there. Yeah, I mean, that's really all, really you guys kind of touched on everybody. I know poor, poor Matt LaFleur just just keeps winning games

and we're not going to talk about. He just has that like the handicapped good and bad with Aaron Roe. It's so hard to separate him. He's 13 games that Jordan love this year. Matt LaFleur is at the top of my list. Exactly. I know. I think he's done a great job.

But again, I think it's just, it's hard to extricate one from the other. But I do think that he's done a really good job about a lot of the little stuff. I've written about. I've talked about some of the little tiny things he's done there with organizational awareness, how to listen to his players, all of those things. He's a really good head coach, but I still think he's one tier below just because we don't have the body of work and the different, the experimental conditions, right? Like there's no control group for Matt LaFleur in the same way

there kind of is now for Sean Payton and what we've seen him be with. Drew Brees offensively. So, all right, let's transition here to the best play caller. And this can include head coaches. It's going to be some of the same names we just talked about. Lindsay, I assume Andy Reid is this for you as well. Yeah, I mean, I had two guys here. It's Andy Reid and it's Kyle Shanahan.

And kind of for two different reasons. I mean, I think it's Andy because he has just this like most ridiculous playbook and the quarterback where he can literally call anything at any point on the field. And I think he's gotten a really good sense, especially of knowing what Patrick is capable of, what Mahomes can do, of kind of unleashing the right play at the right time. But Shanahan, I think, is a play caller. It's just, like, he's the best, like, chess player in the NFL right now, offensively. I think, I think Belichick, you know, is in his own category, and we're going to talk about defensive play callers as well. But so much of what he does,

it's all about personnel groupings and setting stuff up, you know, the stuff they do early in the game pays off late in the game. And he's always several kind of moves ahead. So I would just love to, like, kind of be inside of his play calling brain at some point. Because I also think as part of this discussion, it's important when we talk about best coordinators and best play callers. A lot of these guys are the same guys. But then there's some guys who just have a really good feel for what's happening in the exact moment and what to call it the specific time. So those are my two guys. Nate, how about you? I have the Sean's. I have Sean Payton and Sean McPa. But no, that's a great point with Calh,

Chalhannan, I mean, he's, of course, in this, what my, you know, podium, my, you know,

top tier. But with Kyle Shanahan, what's always amazed me is that they never get a delay a game. He gets all this verbiage in,

all this shifting motion, new guys in there all the time, new quarterback in there, new offense alignment, they never get a delay a game. That shows just how ahead of the ball he is all the time.

I always think that's so impressive. But with my picks, the Sean's, I just think what, with Sean Peyton is, we just already touched on a little bit, I just think his all-round unbelievable feel for the game, not just in the passing game, but also when to go, hey, we're just running this outside zone, this split zone right now,

and they can't stop it. Okay, I'm going to hit two times. All right, I'm going to run a boot now. Here's a play action shot touchdown. Okay, done. Off the field. Here we go. But it's like he does that.

He just has a great feel. He's willing to pound the rock. He's willing to run five play actions in a row. He's willing to call three screens in a row. He doesn't shy away. I think a lot of guys, I think any one of us. that play Madden. You call the same play a few times in a row and all of a sudden you're like,

You get bored. I'm bored or they're on to us, they're on to us, even though you just ran it for 15 yards in a row a bunch of times. That's what real people do. That's a real human element that happens with play calling. Sean Payton doesn't care. He'll just go,

yeah, I'm going to run it like three more times. That's what the best play carers do. They know that kind of game theoryness of a play calling, the human element of, or the D coordinator is on to that. This guy's cheating this. I think he does it so well.

And also that's, we touched on it last week, Robert, too, is how he ties in that formation stuff. So he has those two runs, those three runs. He's got two passes out of the same looks that week. And I know that's with play design, but he knows how to utilize that. It's just so cool watching that offense every week. And like you said, you're talking about when Drew Brees wasn't starting,

he had James in there and he had Tase him in there, and it still ran smoothly and well-coached stuff. And I just really like the flow of the game always with his stuff. It never feels halted. And then Sean McVeigh, I think one of the, my still my favorite thing, I'll say it's a thousand times is I just love all the different tempos he uses, how he ties everything together. And also he's another guy that's willing to go to the well over and over and over and then dial up a shot play at the right time or a double move right at the right time. And I like that stuff. I like those guys that they can feel a play. A lot of times I feel like a lot of coaches when they're playing the calling, the call and plays, they have to wait until everybody comes off the field to communicate everything. I think the best play callers do it. series because they get the feel right away. They don't need to look at the pictures and go, oh, okay, they jumped on it this time. They see it real time. They see it and they go, they know what to look for.

They go, okay, that corner jumped. All right. All right, next first down. I know I'm calling. They get the next first one. Boom. Shot point touchdown. That's what like Sean McVeigh can do or these best guys can do.

And yeah, so I got the Sean's. I think that, I mean, a lot of the same names, Shanahan, in terms of the showy stuff is my favorite to watch just because I think a lot of the wrinkles and some of the, it's just so much fun. And the splashy ideas with him are my favorite splashy ideas, even more than Andy Reid, just because watching him do it with Kyle Hughescheck and George Kittle is just more fun to me than watching Andy Reid do it with Patrick Mahomes and Tyree Kill. It just is.

That's just my type of football like watching. It is. I think my answer, though, just nuts and bolts, play and play out, game and game out as Sean Peyton. And for all the same reasons you said, Nate. I mean, the formational stuff is so fun to watch. Before we did this, I went back and I watched a couple games just to, like, is it really? Am I remembering this correctly?

And they ran a play against the Vikings. I think it was a Christmas Day game, right? And they were in 21, and they motioned out to empty. And Camara was on the wide left, and the fullback was wide to the right. And they ran four verts with a little drag from the fullback. And it wasn't just spreading it out and going empty out of that formation. It was the little details and the aiming points on the vertical routes to pull guys specifically. the Vikings were playing cover three

and it was just beautiful. The guy, the number two receiver on the right is the one that eventually ran down the right sideline and just like the way that that route develops pulls the flat defender with him and carries the corner on that left side. The way that Jared Cook from the number three spot on the right widened and then went vertical

was just enough to give him space away from the deep middle safety. It was just those tiny little details with what Sean Payton does is so fun to watch because they all have. have purpose. And so you have all of these elements of complexity, but then the granular stuff, even down, down, down from that is just so fun to watch.

And just those little details, I think, are what sets him apart to me because I know he has Drew Breeze and Michael Thomas and Alvin Camer are good players, but they're not, like, especially Thomas. And a lot of the other receivers they've worked with in that era within the Breeze-Payton era, they're not these physical marvels of players in the same way that some of these other coaches have. And again, some of the stuff he's done with Teddy Bridgewater and Tassum Hill, I just think that's what sets him apart a little bit to me. And his type of player, though, is he likes smart players. Yes. And that's, it's, and there's a reason why. But I think that says something, right?

Yes. Correct. He does all that formation stuff and that's so, hey, I don't have to worry about them misaligning. Hold on just my one other play calling thing is just Mike Zimmer on third down. That would be my other favorite play caller best play caller. Well, I was doing offensive play callers. So that's fine. But yeah. No, I know. But I just want to pass. package that right there. Best play caller on defense. The third down only is Mike Zimmer. So I wanted to give a nod to some of the non-head coach offensive play callers and talk

about some offensive coordinators that we enjoy watching or that are guys to watch. There are 13 new ones this year, by the way. The amount of turnover at those spots is wild. It was really hard going through those lists to find because so many of them are really unproven. Yes. But the non-head coach variety. So who were yours, Lindsay?

The couple that you picked out, who would they end up being? Yeah, I mean, it's kind of a short list because, like, you know, a lot of these guys are really unproven. But I just think based on, you know, for saying what we've seen and what we've seen them do recently, I think Byron Lefich doesn't get nearly enough credit. He's a future head coach. He doesn't get the credit because of BA and because of Tom Brady. But what he was able to do with kind of this, like, brand new cast of offensive players last year was just, it was just really impressive. And I don't think he got nearly enough, nearly enough credit. So I'm going to put Byron Lefich on there.

He has to be on the short list of guys that should get head coaching job next year. I'm excited to watch him this year because I thought over the second half of last season, he did as good a job as anyone. The little tiny tweaks that they made, the way that they evolved midstream and some of the wrinkles in the playoffs. And he was pressing the right buttons too, not just overall design, but pulling the right levers at the right times. That screen to Godwin in the NFC championship game against the Packers, for example, just a little. little stuff like that. Even that the Alley Marpet pull big run in the Super Bowl

that was that little tiny wrinkle. I just thought he had such a good sense over the second half of the year. So, Lindsay, I totally understand that. Nate, how about you?

A couple names that you just think offensive coordinator-wise are people to watch. Yeah. And both of mine, actually, I had the same limitations as you guys did. I was just like, my note was,

offense coordinator list is kind of weird. It's a weird list. That was my note. And I can't believe this actually ended up in my answer. I had two answers really and one was Brian Dable. And yes, but my other one is Josh McDaniels. And I, going in actually, when I like, you first send us like, hey, this is where we're going

to go over. I was like, I didn't think that name would be my final answer. I've been more of a fan of Josh McDaniels this last like two to three years than any of the fun, really, really fun stuff from the early 2010s, mid-2010s. It's because like he has been very limited with the skill position guys. He's at that. And also some of them move around O line stuff. and he's made it work.

And especially two years ago in 2019, when they were, oh, my God, slim pickets. I mean, like just that receiving core and just what they had, I mean, the shell of Sony Michelle and all that. Like, it was like, it was tough sledding. And they were getting chunks. They were making it work to get to 20 points. And they're trying to get there, but they were. And that like made me more of a fan of Josh McDaniels because I was like, hey, you, you're

making this work with what you got. And that was really cool. Like he went from this big spread it out, air raid influence offense with a bunch of crossers and over is tall. So it's tallus in eye formation, hard play action, boom, boom. Now they're pounding the rock. They're running pinpole stuff. It's like, well, that's really cool just to see the willingness to change over the

years, just like we talked about all good coaching. So my answer would be Josh McDaniels. It's kind of tough with him because like if you say like, what is a Josh McDaniels offense? Like it's hard to know exactly what it is. I know. And like who is he at his core? And that's probably what's made him a really good coordinator for all those years. And honestly, his best years maybe are the best coaching jobs he's done have been the years where

there they've had that when he didn't have Brady. Look, he got that Broncos head coaching job because of what he did with Matt Castle back in 2008. And then just, you know, the way that he's been willing to have that. The one Jacoby Perset game against the Texans. Like, games like that stick out to me. So I totally agree. And I think the fact that they were 11th in offensive DVOA two years ago, Nate, is just ridiculous.

I mean, that's just wizardry, black magic stuff. But yeah, I totally agree, Wednesday. I think that he there are a lot of examples of him just being great independent of that. And I think Daibol is my other guy that I would say. I think what he did there last year. To me, some of the protection details they were able to go through in Buffalo. And my understanding of the work he does there, I think is just really, really good. If you look at the handle they had on how to protect out of those three and four wide receiver sets,

I just think that it's a really impressive bit of detail in what he's able to do and what they're able to do there. Yeah, he knows how tight all in. That's what a coach does. Rather than just going, I got these cool play, past plays. All right, screw the protection. You guys figure it out. You know, O-line coach figure it out. It's like him and Bobby Johnson, they communicate endlessly.

That's awesome. That's a good coach. All right, Lindsay, who do you think is the best defensive coordinator in the NFL right now as we keep on going through these? Well, so we were texting a little bit about this off the show. Can I do a head coach? You can. You can do a head coach for this one. All right.

I still think Vic Fangio, give me like, one game, a non-Belichick division, but like from a purely defensive coordinator. And maybe, spoiler alert for a little bit later in the show, maybe he should just be a defensive coordinator. I think he should be. He's really freaking good as a defensive coordinator. He's shown it year after year after year and place after place after place. So, yeah, I love me some Vic Banjo.

And the tree, the tree of coaches that have come out from under him as defensive coaches, you know, and look, he's gotten to coach some really good defensive players as well. But I think a lot of those guys, if you go back to, you know, Justin Smith and Kahliel Mack and Fawn Miller, a lot of them will give a ton of credit to the type of coaching from Vic Vanjo and his, just the feel he has for defense. I think it's really funny that it took Brandon Staley for us to understand exactly how good Vangio is, right? I mean, it's because it took Brandon Staley's success, I think, for the cross-pollination of that defensive philosophy to

really take hold. Because if you look at it right now, you have Joe Barry in Green Bay. You have Staley now with the Chargers. You have Aubrey Pleasant going to Detroit. Sean Desai is a Vic Fangio disciple that is now the defensive coordinator in Chicago. That growth didn't happen when it was just Fangio, even though people who know what they're looking at consistently said that Vic Fangio is the best defensive coordinator in the league. Offensive coaches all around.

If you talk to anybody, there was a story in the, I'm going back to Southwomen, a time on ESPN.com that John Kime did, the Washington reporter where he talked to Lafleur, Shaneahan, and McVeigh. I mean, it was a 2012 Washington-centric piece. And he asked all three of them, who is the hardest defense coordinator to go against? To a man, they said Vic Fangio. Kevin Stefansky has told me in the past, Vic Fangio is the hardest defense coordinator to go against because of the layers of complexity and how hard it is to read post-snap. But it took Brandon Staley becoming this rising star hot shot coach for everyone around the lead to be like, oh yeah, this is the hardest thing to go against.

Maybe we should copy this, which I think is just so, so interesting. And I think, too, a lot of that, you know, the 2018 season where, you know, the Rams and the chiefs kind of just like changed the NFL. And Vic Fangio's Bears defense changed everything. When they shut down the Rams. It's not talk about it. It's not talk about it. But, I mean, that, that influenced exactly what Belichick did in the Super Bowl, how they shut

down the Rams offense in the Super Bowl. So, you know, the offense was on this, or the NFL was on this like runaway train going one direction with 50 points a game. And all of a sudden, Vic Fangio slammed the brakes on it. And it changed kind of history. It got Tom Brady another ring. It stopped Jared Goff would have been a Super Bowl champion. And he wouldn't have gotten traded. I mean, there's a lot of sliding doors, things that we could get into.

Fangio's never worked for the Rams. And he's owed like a lot of his credibility to the Rams because of that 2018 game and that's staley. No, I mean, those 49 are. teams everyone remembers the offense and Colin Capon. They were awesome stuff. The defense was incredible. The defense was so hard. I have nightmares about those defenses.

I mean, those defenses were so good and he still didn't get the pub that he should have gotten. It was all Harbaugh. I mean, it's just funny how that works. And then finally, you know, he's getting some flowers a little bit.

I just wish you would have known and understood that defensive coordinator was his calling and just never left Chicago. I just wish that would have happened. I also cannot wait for the Vic Fangio higher arm race next off season when after the Broncos go seven and nine and he gets fired. I'm really looking forward to where he's going to be the defensive coordinator next year. All right. Nate, how about you? Who do you think right now is the best defense coordinator in the league?

I have Spags. I have Steve Spackola. And I mean, it's that's another guy that he gets better as a season goes on. I really, he's one of those guys. He gets deeper into the bag. Yep. He waits until the buy week. And then he goes, okay, this is what I got.

All right. Let me go through my week. weird concoctions of blitzes and whatever funky stuff I'm going to throw at you. Okay, this is what we're doing. And then also in the second half the year, they always ascend. And especially in the playoffs, when he can go week by week, he's unlocked. That's when Spags is one of the best coaches, period is once he gets to the playoffs, it can just kind of really game playing stuff.

If you just had a game playing one game, that's a guy I would take. Just one of that he's one of those guys that he lets his players play to their strengths. He just lets guy, he unlocks guys no matter where he's been. When it was in New York, he got guys running wide, running the NASCAR package stuff. When he gets to Kansas City now, I mean, he still did a lot of funky stuff in New York, but now he gets to Kansas City. Oh, I got this guy named Tyron Matthew who loves to fly around and be very heady. All right, let's unlock him.

Let's run some robber shit and just let him go. And then let's move Chris Jones, keep on. And they had some fun rush packages. And it's like, that's a good coach right there. And he also has my favorite thing in the defense coordinator, willingness to be aggressive, actually any play caller, but just willingness to be aggressive. He gets torched when he runs cover zero. guess what's coming back.

Here comes another cover zero. He does not care. He is willing to play that gash or be gash, even when all the chips are on the line. Everything is, everything is like the biggest play of the game. He's willing to be aggressive. And I just love that in a play caller, offense or defense. The reason he was not mine is because I think being the defense coordinator of that team is not an easy job. But it's easier than it is to be because it's easy to be aggressive when you know that if you make a mistake,

it's not going to be the end of the game. When you're winning games 31 to 27, and you know that, I think it influences the way that you call defenses. But I will say, he's the perfect guy for that job. The one guy I would say, again, just defensive coordinators, non-head coaches, because I think Zimmer's great. Obviously, Belichick, what Brandon Staley did last year, undeniable. I think Wink Martindale has done a fantastic job in Baltimore.

Their third in EPA per play since he took over in 2018. And just the distillation of that philosophy where he's like, all right, we're going to play man, we're going to have just really aggressive, great man coverage corners, and we're going to do a ton of funky shit in front of it. And that's how we're going to live. He is an evangelist of that type of defense. He thinks that sacks are overrated and you can manufacture pass Russian to their detriment sometimes with the way they've built that team. But I think if you look at the types of players that have cycled through there and played well, Zedarius Smith, Matthew Judon, just guys that have gotten paid out of that system because of the ways they've been deployed. the way they develop players there on defense.

I just think they've done such a good job. And again, just little tiny tweaks, like moving Marlon Humphrey inside and outside. Just all of the stuff they've done there, I think consistently, they are so, so good. All right. So this one,

we touched a little bit on the guys that might be cracking the top tier, but I think we can go a little bit further down the list. Who would you say, Lindsay, is the next great head coach in the league? So we take one of the guys that we already, that are that's already a head coach who's going to be the breakout yes no so so it's already a head coach but you think in two years we will talk about them in the top tier right i feel like i might be stealing

one of your guys but i mean brandon staley has it right like all those things that we talked about where it's scheme and like the CEO quality and the you know all of that stuff i think he just has it he's come up under a couple different head coaches who have that with where Sean McVeigh, they were kind of just these kindred spirits, obviously didn't work together for a very long time. But, you know, he has that kind of McVeigh-esque quality about him. So, you know, I think, I think he's, he's on my really short list. I'm going to talk about him in regard to a different category here in a second. So let's file that away that I don't disagree with you. Nate, who would you say? I'm going Brian Flores. And I think, I think

Flores, I am huge, I knew nothing about him until he got the head coaching gig. I'll admit that. And I think he is just, just his personality. I was like, okay, he's a little calmer, a little different than I was expecting. But then that year that everybody and their mother knew that they were bottoming out was how hard everybody played. It was awesome. It was so cool to see that at the NFL level. Not everyone moping.

They make a mistake. It was chaotic at times. I get that. But it was just, they really, really just played hard throughout that year. They had no right to win six games or whatever it was two years ago. And then this past year, you know, a legit playoff team. They should have been. The AFC was just so funny this year. They finally go to seven teams. Everyone wants 10, 11 games. But I just think he's such a passionate and he's a very, very smart coach. And you can tell the guys respect him. And that is hard to do for a guy like that and what the situation he got put in. Like those X&L's credentials to have productive units. I mean, like they hung around with the underwhelming talent two years ago. And they're trying. They're trying. Last year, handling personalities.

He had Tua in the Ryan Fitzpatrick situation. The guys are still playing. There's no like, oh, that was when they benched Tua and then went back to Fitzpatrick. And it wasn't like everybody's like, oh, no one came out to the media and said shit. You know, it's just like it seems like everything is handled well down there. And everybody's on the same wavelength. Even if it's not perfect right now, I just feel like they're all in lockstep.

And I think that just starts at the top with the head coach. So I really do think, I think he has the exes and those credentials come from Belichick. And I see that defense legitimately running Belchick's defense, not the idea of Belchick's defense like I saw in Detroit the last couple of years is Flores was actually running it. And so it was well coached and everyone knew what to do. So I think that starts with him. And I just think if they get some more tweaks with this offense, I think like he's going to ascend in the national spotlight. One of the things that I like so much about Brian, sorry, one of the things that I like so much about Brian Flores. And I didn't mention this up at the top of the show and we're talking about qualities and head coach is that he very clearly knows.

who he is. And it's so rare for a guy from the Bill Belichick tree to come in to the league and a head coaching job and not just try to be Bill. We've seen it fail time and time and time and time again. And Brian Flores, for a guy who is as young as he is, I think maybe he just turned 40, you know, he just is so sure of himself and who he is as a man, as a leader, as a father, as a head coach, as a play caller, all of those things. And I just respect the hell out of that. I love you drop in. Just turn 40. He's young. I know exactly where your head's at right now, Lindsay. Look, I got like 10 more days, dude.

Don't think I didn't notice that. All right. Line, speaking of guys who are almost 40, and I think that when I was talking about the qualities that I would look forward to coach, mine is Kevin Stefansky, and it's because of all of those things. I think that if you look at,

and Sean McVeigh is like this too, where Nate, you alluded to this a little bit before, but these guys who come from these hybrid places and all these different, and they've seen these different types of offenses. You know, McVeigh worked for Shanahan, but before that, he was a true blue West Coast guy under the Grudence. And having those different types of experiences and having that toolbox is important.

And I think it's why when Stefancy got the job in Cleveland, I thought he'd do a good job is because he comes from a million places. He's seen tons of different types of offense. I mean, he first got hired under Brad Childress, which, again, as traditional West Coast as you could pop, possibly be from Andy Reid, and then came to a place where it's Kubiak stuff. And he chose that type of offense, but still is completely fluent in a lot of the traditional West Coast stuff. And what they did last year in diversifying their run game with Bill Callahan, that's what I mean

about smart delegation and about humility. You know this better than me. You help coordinate and design this run game because you do this in a really, really impressive way. That kind of stuff. What they got out of Baker Mayfield when Odo Beckham wasn't even on the field in the second half of last season. I think that humility, curiosity, flexibility, those three things, he has them in bunches. And I just think what they've done and just how put together that organization feels right now with a product on the field and just how different it felt compared to some of the other regimes that have been there, I think he's going to be really good at this for a long time. He had the same thing going on were just like how like I was complimented Flores.

He had two plays last year. We talked about at least one of them where, you know, it was the gadget play to the jumbo tight end for the touchdown. It was a gadget, but it was a play action. And then also there was a, it was a baker run for a first down to ice the game.

I want to say it was against the Steelers. Yeah, it was by 17. Yeah, but those two plays is how hard everybody played and, and the passion everybody when they get up and they're celebrating. It's such a weird thing. and it's so hard to like just like describe this,

but you can really tell how people are celebrating, like they're celebrating the right things in a way. And it's like both of those plays, you could just see the guys. Everyone knew what the goal of those plays were. So they all were looking to what was supposed to happen. And everyone gets up going like, yes, we did it.

And it was like, again, that starts at the top. That's not just one guy in the huddle. Sometimes it is, but one guy in the huddle going like, hey, guys, we're doing this. And everyone's yeah, yeah. It's like everybody knew the plan. Everybody executed the plan.

And everybody was happy they executed the plan. and that that starts at the top. That's not, that's not a mistake. You can just feel the good vibes there. You can just feel that they are people and, you know, talking to even players there,

they really respect him and they really like what's going on in that building. I think that there are a lot of good things ahead for them. All right. Lindsay, when you talking about Brandon Staley, the next category I had was, which first year head coach are you most excited about? That's my answer.

Because, and it's for a lot of different reasons. I think everything you said is true. And he's just one of those guys that I knew as soon as he, gotten one of those interviews, he was going to get one of those jobs for a lot of the things that you said. He just, he has it. Whatever it is, he has it. And I'm excited about watching him this year for several different reasons. One, how does that scheme evolve? Because he knows he needs to and he knows there's going to be copycats all over the place. What does it look like in the

second act with different players? Filtered through guys like Derwin James and Joey Bosa instead of guys like Aaron Donald and Jalen Ramsey, what does that look like? I'm fascinated about that. I'm excited to watch that. Also, what kind of imprint does he have on the offense? He has said multiple times, he's not going to be a defensive coach that contracts out the offense to someone else, because that's where you run into problems. And I am so excited to see what that offense looks like with a defensive coach's fingerprints on it. So just the experiment that's going to be going on in, I was going to say San Diego. Mother, son of a bitch. It's going to say San Diego. So again, it's been like five years now.

It's hard. The experiment that's going to be going on with the Chargers this year on so many different levels, I can't wait to watch it. Pure excitement. I'm also excited about watching Robert Sala and just what that feel of him and that organization and how much different it feels from Adam Gase. But just on a football nerd level, I cannot wait to watch Staley's Chargers. Would you say Staley is yours, Lindsay, just because when you mentioned it before? Oh, of like the first year head coach? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I put him and I would put Robert Sala. Yeah. I'm just, I'm so curious. Like I just, I don't want to get into the whole like culture coach kind of thing. And, you know, Nate,

you had a really good explanation this for this before. But like, he's just making it a not toxic situation anymore. And he's, dudes at Islanders games just having a great time. I've enjoyed his little tour of New York that he's done in the last month. He was actually, Nick's game and he actually like knew how to handle a crowd as opposed to be like,

hey, like he was like, yeah, let's go next. And he's also a really. a really good head coach. And a lot of really smart people who coached with him and have played for him are obsessed with the type of coach that he is.

So he's the other guy that I have just in terms of like a new guy in a new spot that I think is going to be really good. Nate, who's yours? Well, so Sal, that's a great point too, is that I, like, 2019, if he got hired, I would be like, oh, he's just a raw, raw guy. He had great players. And then we've talked about this, Robert, but this, that 2020 performance that defense did. I was like, he's a good coach.

No, hire him. He's head coach worthy. He's good. Great, great personnel. Yeah, let's go. Um,

but actually the guy I'm really excited to see. And I, I stay aly and solid really be gone to head my answers. But really I want to see what Dan Campbell does because I am fascinated. And not just like from a weird curiosity standpoint. No. No, not more of a curiosity.

It's more like, I just want to see where this is going. I really do. I love the vibes that he's bringing there. And it's funny. I was going through to staff because that, what we're doing for this thought experiment for everything. And it's funny, his staff is a whole bunch of former NFL players that are coaches in different ways.

You have Anthony Lynn, Mark Brunell, Antoine Randallel L. Aaron Glenn. Aaron Glenn, another one. And it's like, do Staley, I believe, is there? Yeah. Was he there? Yeah, do Staley's there? I mean, he's going for a certain type of culture there going like, hey, this is a player-friendly

culture. We know what you're going through. But we're going to work. But, hey, you're going to take a load off afterwards. And maybe I'm a sucker for that because that's, what my dad tried to do. So maybe that's why I just see it's like a kindred spirit kind of thing. But I think players, no matter what, I think he's accepting. He's like, I'm going to be more of a, you know, I'm going to handle all this. It's a culture coach. That's hilarious. But players can see

through bullshit. After over time, like you guys said, everyone talks and it's some faster than others. Sometimes it takes a full season. Sometimes it's off season. Sometimes it's two seasons when stuff goes bad, but it's not like some college coach trying to come here and do all this. He played in the league. He's coached in the league. He's done all this. And I just love what he's trying to do. He's saying, hey, this place has been pretty miserable. It really has. I mean, the entire, the whole history of the Lions franchise really has. What's change it up. Let's just try and, hey, what's will this confidence into not only the team, but the city, the organization kind of thing. And I like it. I just want to see where it's going. So I guess that is excitement, but it's just really kind of like, it's

fascinating to me because I want to see like, hey, we're resetting, which is what's just, what's try. Let's try something different. Let's just go with it and try and build this tough physical brand of football that they're going to try to do, I think. All right. So last one here. I really wanted to talk to you guys about this because, Lindsay, obviously, you're very in tune with the fabric of the league and you know a lot of staffs around the NFL and Nate. You've been a part of them. I want to talk about some of the rising star assistants in the league, position coaches, guys that maybe in their first year as a coordinator, I cheated him in a name a couple of those. But who comes to mind for that with you, Lindsay? Just rising star assistance that you're keeping an eye on around

the week. Sure. So, I mean, speaking of becoming 40, I'm working on my annual 40 under 40 list in the NFL. And so I've been soliciting a lot of names of up and comers and top assistants. And there are a lot of coordinators kind of on that list. But there's two names that have come up to me multiple times of just kind of fast rising assistant coaches to watch. First guy is Thomas Brown, who's the running backs coach with the Rams. He is now the assistant head coach to Sean McVe. He's kind of become like Sean McVeigh's right-hand man just loves this guy, is taking on a ton of responsibilities. And what's his background? He was a running back at Georgia. He's kind of come up as a running through the running backs coach, but he's getting a ton of responsibilities now with the Rams, which I hope he has that opportunity to kind of break this cycle where we're only plucking our offensive coordinators from quarterback coach roles, where Sean McVeigh clearly sees that this is a really,

really bright guy. He just has a really good feel with his players. So his name has come up to me multiple times is potentially the next great McVeigh assistant. I've never heard of him. I'm really glad you mentioned him. That's really good to know. I mean, he was only there.

Last year was his first year. Yeah, he's really new. Malcolm Brown was a great pass protector, so I'm guessing Thomas did something right. And what Cam Acres did as a rookie. I mean, obviously, he's talented, but it's still, I think that that speaks a lot. All right, who else? Yeah, so Jordan Rodriguez first put him on my radar, and then I kind of started asking around a lot about him. And then the other guy is here local for me in Denver.

And it's Christian Parker. He is the Broncos' new DB's. coach super impressive. I've heard him compared to Brandon Staley a lot. Different personality wise a little bit. I think Staley is a little bit more like the politician, kind of that guy to him, but in terms of the way that he studies, the way that he kind of will try to look at things through an offensive lens sometimes, that kind of the grind and the building. And D.B.'s coaches under Vic Fangio tend to be super fast risers. So. Rinaldo Hill is the defensive coordinator with the Ram or with the Chargers now.

So yeah, exactly. So those are the two guys whose names have come up multiple times. I don't know if they will officially make the 40 under 40 list, but they're two just these like super fast risers that definitely need some recognition. Nate, how about you? I went with a, it's funny because my next heads up on coach, or head coach is dolphins. And I went to the Dolphins DB coach, Gerald Alexander.

And coach Alexander, I don't know much of them. I just have been watching that Dolphins defense. And I started looking at positions. I really liked. And of course, I like the Dolphins DPs and what they did. I obviously have talent there, but you can tell they're well coached.

It's, there's no hands up. There's no palms up. There's no two guys covering the same guy. There's none of those little mistakes. And also, so I just started looking into his history a little bit. And,

you know, I talked around. I asked people that might know him. I asked a couple friends that have interviewed him. They said he's a passionate guy. He brings a lot of energy. But also just his kind of exes and O's background a little bit, too,

is he was a player in the NFL. He played about five years. years. Then, you know, he's bounced around. He was, I shouldn't say bounced around. He did kind of the dirty work. He did the internships. He did the GA under Chris Peterson at Washington. You know, he wasn't like a former player that got a position coach right away. He did all the grunt work and worked his way up. And then he finally got a finally his first, he did FCF schools. And then for about three years, he was the Cal D.B. Coach University of California. And under the Justin Wilcox defense. And Cal's defense has really been a really fun one to Washington college football,

especially in 2019, which was Alex. Sanders last year as a DB coach then. And I just like that kind of mixing of what he's been around. He's just got that interesting background. He did a minority internship under Dick Leboe. He played under Rex Ryan for a year. So he has kind of that background to him a little bit, that kind of Butzburg, you know, chaos that Rex Ryan brings. And nowadays, he's under Flores.

I'd have a little more hesitations here if Flores was like a DB background guy, but he's a linebacker background guy by trade. He did a little bit of everything in New England. So it's like Alexander has some say with what he does. And that would be just somebody I want to keep an eye on. And somebody has kind of been brought to my radar doing this study. And now I asked around. And it's like, okay, now I've been someone that I think is going to ascend as maybe

the dolphins get a little more spotlight on them. It's funny because I went a very similar direction. And a lot of what you just said about Alexander is similar to the guy I chose. I pick Chris Harris in Washington. And so I loved watching Chris Harris as a player. I mean, he was such a, he was such a fun player to watch as a safety for the Bears. He was a sixth round pick, super instinctual, just was always around the ball. When they traded him to Carolina, I was just crestfallen.

They eventually came back, but just such a fun player to watch. And this is a fun story, I think, similar Nate, to what you were talking about with Alexander. At the combine, five, six years ago, I was sitting at the bar at the JW Marriott, as one does. And I was sitting next to Chris Harris. And I just struck up a conversation with him. It might have been even longer than five years ago. and he was trying to break into coaching. And that's why he was there.

And he wasn't somebody that just got an assistant job right away. We talked for a few minutes. And we were just talking about what he wanted to do. It was a really fun conversation. And he was a defense court and control coach with the Bears. And then he was the assistant DB's coach with the Chargers when Durwin James was there, when they were doing a lot of really good stuff with Casey Hayward. And then he was in Washington last year.

And if you go watch at the production from those defensive backs and Washington last season. The way Ronald Darby played, and I think Ronald Darby is a perfect player by which to judge this, because he's been a different guy, depending on where he's been, who he's been around, all of that. He was awesome last year. And it wasn't like they were doing crazy stuff. A lot of quarters, a fairly simple defense.

But the way those guys clearly, they were played so fast, and you could see the way they were seeing things unfold, it was being communicated to them the right way. their keys were, what formationally they were supposed to be paying attention to all of that stuff. And I think Ronald Darby embodied that. And then what they got out of a guy like Cam Curl as a rookie, as a seventh round pick. I just think that speaks to the job that Chris Harris did there. He interviewed for the Eagles defensive coordinator job. I think he's definitely somebody to pay attention to based on what he's already done in a single season as a full-time position coach for the first time. That's good. Lindsay, were you going to say something?

No, I was going to say he's also on my short list of 40 under 40 names. So, yeah. I'm with you. There we go. I'm glad I landed on that time with doing no calls and making no additional research like you guys did. So, all right. That is all we got. That was a really fun conversation. I'm glad we did that.

That is kind of the third show in the set of shows we did. Quarterbacks, non-quarterbacks, coaches. The landscape of those positions and jobs in the league, I think that we have covered well enough. I'm glad we did that. Next time we're going to rank NFL podcast hosts. Yeah, there we go. There we go. That's going to be a fun one.

I think it's a good time to do those sort of resets and to talk about the landscape of those things and to re-familiarize yourself with the hierarchies and all that kind of stuff. So I'm glad we did that. It's perfect conversations for May and for June. That is all we got for today. We will be back next week, me, Nate, and a special guest. I'm really looking forward to that. We did offensive trends and offensive developments last week.

Next week is defense. So be on the lookout for that. Later this week on Friday, we will have the next show in our interview series. I said it was going to be an NFL head coach. It is not any longer. That is going to be next week. It is going to be an NFL general manager on Friday.

So still something to get excited about, a conversation I'm looking forward to having. So please come back and check that out. Please subscribe to the Athletic. Theathletic.com slash football show. A lot of great Julio stuff on the site over the last couple days. The offseason coverage nonstop. Jordan Rodriguez is doing a really interesting series right now

about the process that went into drafting the Rams in the mid to later rounds, which is a ton of transparency into the scouting world that you don't normally get. I would highly recommend that. So please go check that stuff out. Please rate and review the podcast. On your podcast platform of choice, I sincerely appreciate that. We'll be back on Friday with the next interview in our series. Until then, thank you guys for listening.

We'll talk to you later. This was the athletic football show.