The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Justin Herbert, Jeffery Simmons, and the 2022 narrative changers

Episode Date: August 15, 2022

We think about Deebo Samuel entirely different right now than we did a year ago at this time. He changed his narrative in a big way in 2021. Who can do that in 2022? Robert Mays and the NFL Network's Cameron Wolfe nominate a handful of candidates on this episode of The Athletic Football Show. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. Today's Monday, August 15th. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today from the NFL network, Cam Wolf, Cam, how you doing, man? Let's go. Feeling good, baby.

It's funny because we were chatting a couple weeks ago, and I was like, I got to get you on. I was trying to figure out a time to do it, figure out a topic that we could talk about, and this worked out perfectly. The timing of it, everything. Yeah, we're finally slowing down from training camp just a little bit,

getting into preseason mode. So talk some ball. That's time. So what I wanted to do today, this is a topic that Michael Bell, or our new executive producer and I were talking about a little bit. And I wanted to talk about guys, not necessarily breakout players like we did last year,

guys that are kind of post-breakout, but players we think can change their narrative a little bit this year. Guys that we'll be talking about differently on January 15th, than we're talking about on August 15th, which gives you a lot of players to choose from. But I think the types of guys we settled on here outside of a couple exceptions are all in a similar bucket. So that's what we're going to do today. But before we do that, we're recording this on Sunday evening. I want to talk about the Zach Wilson news very quickly.

Obviously, the tape and the video of the injury looked pretty bad. It looked like it could have been pretty severe. I'm sure the Jets and their fans really holding their breath as they saw that. Test came back. Sounds like it's just a bone bruise and a meniscus tear. He went out to California to have the surgery done, I think, in the last 24 hours or so. His status is uncertain for week one, but it does look like the Jets kind of dodged a bullet here. Not terrible news, not season-altering news, but certainly not what you want from a guy that has a pretty important year on Dakwin-Zack Wilson.

Oh, yes, huge, right? Because even beyond from the Jets season perspective, I think there's nothing. nothing more important to figure out if Zach is good enough to be the guy. You know, and last year was was Rocky. Let's just call it what it was. But you give a guy a pass because he's rookie. If you lose him for a whole other year, can you imagine going into 2023 with just the uncertainty of not knowing what you have in Zach Wilson?

So I think for Jets fans, you got to be happy simply for the fact that at least you get to get more information about the guy that's supposed to be your franchise quarterback. Yeah, you don't lose a season in terms of long-term planning. And that's a huge thing for them. It's still tough to lose a couple weeks at this point in the year, though, because he missed time last year. So again, if we're trying to figure out what he is by the end of the season, if he's missing a bunch of time and you miss four or five games here or there, even that makes it tough because you're dealing with another uneven year. So not ideal, but certainly not the worst case scenario for Robert Salas guys here. Yeah, absolutely.

And those just receivers, you know, they've got Elijah Moore in there bringing in Garrett Wilson. like you mentioned, they need time with their quarterbacks there. They're an interesting spot in the AFC East, honestly, because, you know, depending on who you ask, you know, the New England Patriots, the way they're playing, maybe the Jets can creep up on them and maybe they're not in the cellar in the East anymore. But I think this Jets team desperately has to figure out what they have in their offense.

They build around Zach Wilson and the playmakers. They've got them over the last couple of years. They're trying to get that offense aligned better. And now it's time to see if the kid can play. So you're right, the two, three weeks, four weeks, however long it takes is going to hurt them. But I think it's better than missing them for the whole year. So I consider that a win for the Jets. Did you see Joe Flacco come out today and say that he doesn't feel like an old guy?

I don't feel like I'm a millionaire. I'm not, but I feel like that. You know, if you say something, is it a reality? Joe Flacco is 37 years old. My 35th birthday is two weeks from now. I feel old as shit. So if Joe Flacco doesn't. doesn't feel old at 37 then good for him. I need however he's taken care of himself.

Rob, you know how sometimes you see players and you're like, man, I did not know that he was that old. I absolutely thought Joe Flacco was 37 years old. Like there was not like, oh, I'm shocked that he's that old. I was, I remember where I was when Joe Flacco got drafted. During the 2008 draft, I was in London, England, because that's where I was living because I was studying abroad. It was my sophomore year of college. So Joe Flacco has been in my life, in what feels, like six different lifetime. So I'm sorry, Joe. You may not feel old, but I think the rest of the football world and most people at large think of you as old. And that's okay. It's okay to be old, being old rules. By the way, this is a brief side. No, hopefully not get us to track it too much.

What's a more unusual Super Bowl run year? Was it Joe Flacco season or Nick Foles' season, that they won the Super Bowl? I definitely think it was Nick Foles's season because Nick Foles was out of the league almost. Andy Reid had to coax Nick Foles back to the NFL because of how bad his experience with the Rams was. And he was the backup quarterback. At least with Joe Flacco, we were having conversations about whether Joe Flacco was elite. We were having conversations about whether Nick Foles should be in the league. At least he was the starting quarterback.

So I still think the Nick Foll's run was a little bit more improbable, even if the Joe Flacco run led to a pretty improbable contract and some improbable conversations. Speaking of the Ravens, Lamar came out and said week one, it seems like a decent contract deadline. With some other news bits over the weekend, especially related to preseason play, we'll get into some of those over the course of the week. A lot of them are Steelers-related. Kenny Pickett played decently well. George Pickens had some flashes. I'm going to Steelers camp on Tuesday.

So we'll have some Steelers-related updates for you here over the next couple days. And I'm sure we'll hit on some of those preseason performances that everybody's talking about. I have unfortunately not been able to kind of sit and watch much preseason football just because I've been in transit. I went from Buffalo to New Jersey to Philadelphia and now I'm in Washington, D.C. I have no idea where I am or what day it is. So when I get a moment to gather myself, we will prepare for some preseason chatter. But let's get into some of these guys that we want to talk about here with people that we think can change the way that we're going to talk about them by season's end. I want to start it off because the person I wanted to talk about when I was conceiving this show was Justin Jefferson. And that may seem cheap, okay?

I don't think anyone in the world thinks Justin Jefferson isn't a top five receiver in the league right now. But if we're thinking about guys who can change the way that we're talking about them, they're standing in the league, I think there is a world where at the end of this year, we talk about Justin Jefferson as the best receiver in football. and maybe the most valuable non-quarterback on offense in the league. I think that is within the range of how we can do this by the end of the year. And I think that some of the ways that the Vikings offense has been characterized over the last couple of seasons has been a little bit misleading. This idea that they were this run at 65% of the time, slam our heads against the wall team. That's not really true. But I do think there are enough kind of subtle tweaks.

of what they're going to be offensively that allow Justin Jefferson to really, really shine. A lot of the ways they used him last year when he was in the slot, it was him and Adam Thielan on the same side and they had two tight ends on the other side. Those elements, those little tiny wrinkles

to give Justin Jefferson opportunities, those were pretty archaic, those weren't as forward-thinking as you'd want them to be, and I just think some of those elements to this offense. If we think about not just being in the slot, but how often the Rams schemed up and carved up matchups for Cooper Cup last year.

Finding those sorts of opportunities for Justin Jefferson in this offense, I wouldn't be surprised if he was creeping up toward 1,800 yards and a dozen touchdowns this year. And if he does that, I think we're going to start talking about him in rarefied air. So that's an easy one.

It's kind of a layup, but I do think he fits the exercise here even if it feels cheap. Yeah, I love the Justin Jefferson pick. He may be one. We're not supposed to have favorites, but he's one of my favorite players in this league. Not only because of what he does on the field, but the younger generation seems to love Justin Jefferson. He's gone as hell.

I've got a little brother who doesn't watch football that much, but he knows Justin Jefferson. Maybe he's the TikTok dances or whatever, but I think he could, like, we usually have quarterbacks that are faces of the league, right? I think he could be a next generation face the league just because of the way he does stuff off the field along with his play. So I love the Justin Jefferson pick in the Cooper Cup role. in that offense. I think he said earlier this season, he wanted to be defined as the best receiver in a league and get the triple crown and all that sort of stuff.

And people were like, but yeah, whatever, that would not shock me either. Like, I could see him getting the triple crown playing the Cooper Cup role here. So I think you're absolutely right. I think that would be a great transformation for Justin Jefferson,

but it also would not shock me one bit. Cooper Cup is 30 years old. We got that, we got that season out of Cooper Cup, fairly deep into his career. Justin Jefferson turned 23 a month ago. Two months ago. Again, I can't remember what month it is.

It is now August 15th, which seems insane. So that means Justin Jefferson's birthday is June 16th. So he turned 23 years old two months ago. If Kevin O'Connell's there for a while, we could get five years of Justin Jefferson and these exact circumstances putting up these sorts of numbers. I think it's really underrated. and undervalued how good Justin Jefferson is this early.

Obviously, Jamar Chase came in and lit the world on fire. The way that Jamar Chase affected the game last year for the Bengals is significantly different than the way that Justin Jefferson can affect the game on a down-to-down basis. Chase is an overwhelming talent. Justin Jefferson is an incredibly refined, nuanced player at a position where it usually takes a while to do that. So I just cannot wait for how truly unleashed he is going to be this season. Sorry, Eagles fans, but every time I think of Justin Jefferson,

I think about them taking Jalen Rager over Justin Jefferson because what was the thought that only he could only play slot receiver, Justin Jefferson did, and they wanted an outside burner receiver. That's the one pick I think we'll point back to decades from now about like, are you serious? The guy is it. You're right. I think he's it.

Like there's no flaws. his game. That's why it's so fun because him moving inside a little bit more often this season, it's not like it's a projection. It's literally what he did in college. Right. There's never what people thought he was going to do. Yes. And he was so good last year and over the first couple years of his career doing the hard stuff. You know, again, one-on-one outside man coverage, just beating guys up in those situations where the degree of difficulty is really high. Now he's going to be running choice routes from the slot. against safeties in the same way he did at LSU.

And I truly believe as we look at guys at receiver and how to project them forward, the types of players you want, guys that played in the slot in college, but have the profile to move outside in the NFL, I think that's going to be a little nugget in player evaluation that becomes more and more important. Justin Jefferson was like that. AJ Brown was like that.

And I do think that there's something there. And people I've talked to seem to think there might be as well. So I could not be more excited about what Justin Jefferson is going to be on this team. I know that everyone seems to be on that. But if he starts breaking records and truly shattering the norms of what we think about with receiver production here this year, I would not be surprised at all. All right. Who's your first one here?

You're going to actually pick somebody where we can give some people some insight rather than one of the best three receivers in the lake. I'll actually start in the frame of this conversation and finding the next Debo who splash on the screen. I'll start in the same city where Debo currently lives with Brandon Iyuk and with the 49ers. I think that we love Debo for what he did last year. He had an amazing season. But I still remember going into August last year, I talked with the 49ers executive. And we were curious about the receiving core at that point, who's going to be the guy? And so I asked them about the receivers there.

And he said, well, Brandon Ayyuk, I think he has a chance to be our number one in this scheme. He has a dog in it. He has the reality. everything about him screams number one to me. This is a guy who's pretty high up in their front office. And then Debo has that type season, right? And so Debo of all. And so I come back to him at the end of the year and I'm like,

but I'm in I, what you do to me? What happened I at you? Not only did you hurt my fancy team. I also thought that IEIC was going to be this guy. And his response says, I still think he is. I still think he is. And so I don't think that this means that Debo is going to be lessened.

I just think that we forget that Brandon Iyuk was a first round pick feeder. He has very, very high expectations. He's had a rocky start to his career at some point. He was in the doghouse with Kyle Shanahan. There's questions about, you know, his route running, his work ethic, that sort of thing. But he was transformed that second half of last season. And I think people would be surprised that more than 40% of his routes last year were big plays or his catch season were a big plays. And so he was a big play weapon in that offense.

And we have a Trey Lance who we're going to have a lot of eyeballs on. But I think a lot of his game is going to be predicated off the play action and big passes. I see Brandon Ayyuk being a recipient of a lot of those passes. And so I think that we can look at Brandon Ayuk at the end of the year. And maybe my guy is right that we truly look at Brandon Ayuk as a wide receiver one. Even though they have a wide receiver one in Debo, Sam, go there. I think he ends up getting a thousand plus yards and redefining himself. as one of the maybe top 15, top 20 receivers in this game,

which I don't think anybody views him at at this point in this career. There's never been a question about how rare his skill set is. The way he moves, the way he's built. I mean, his arms are so incredibly long, but he's also really smooth. And that's never been in question. I think it's been some of the other stuff. And Kaushanana is so openly talked about it.

And Brennan Ayuk has openly talked about it. And they seem to be so on the same page about where he's, he's at in his development and mindset. And it makes sense, right? I mean, Kyle talked about this. He comes in during the COVID year. Everyone talks about how he's going to be the next great thing after some flashes his rookie year, goes into next season, probably is not as prepared as he should be, has some

bumps in the road. And all of that's out the window. I mean, Kyle is not going to openly and effusively praise someone, especially at that position if he doesn't think that guy deserves it. And I think that's exactly where Brandon I, Yook is. And you look at that missile shot, that Trey Land, it's hit to Danny Gray the other day. And it's not hard to imagine Brandon Iyuk on the receiving end of those pretty often this season. Absolutely. You talk about motivators. Like what type of

motivator is seeing Debo become that man and that offense that was supposed to be you and that offense? And so if I was him, that it motivates me to work hard. That motivates me to get behind whatever was limiting me before. So I think that we're going to see a new mindset out of Brandon Iyuk. I think that a new quarterback, you forget whatever was your relationship with Jimmy G, you have a new guy. Trey's there. You can build your standard with him. I think that they're truly going to have a one-two punch that's formidable. Not sure how much Dibo is going to be in the running back versus receiving room. But, I mean, maybe this is shocking you say. It would not shock me if Brandon Ayuk leads the 49ers in receiving yards by the end of the year. That would probably be my quote-unquote hot take that I think would not shock me one bit.

And I think it's up to him to prove, like you said, his talent right. But I think if all goes well, Brandon Ayup becomes my breakout player early on in the season. I think that's totally right. I wouldn't be surprised by that at all. And you can just see it. You can see how it aligns with this version of the offense. I also think that there used to be that conversation about year three receivers. And that was the year that receivers would break out.

And I think that we got a little bit spoiled with some of the guys who came into the league. Justin Jefferson was like that, and I think Chase was like that a little bit. But the Bengals did such an intentional job over the last two seasons, during Burroughs' rookie year and during Chase's rookie year, of saying, all right, what were you comfortable with in college? We're just going to put you in that box and let you do that. And that's why I think those guys were able to hit the ground running. Kyle's not going to do that.

He's not going to change his offense to cater to a young player, no matter how highly drafted that guy is, for better or for worse. in a lot of ways I would say that's stubborn and it's old school coaching that we should get out of the league but when it's Kyle Shanahan, it's like you can kind of do what he wants on that side of things but I think that Brandon Ayuk is going to follow that more traditional path of taking a couple years and kind of have to work through some stuff at that position

before he truly catches on. But I wouldn't be surprised if we were talking about him as a Pro Bowl kind of second tier right on the doorstep being a tier one receiver by the end of the season. So I think that's a really good one. All right. I'm going to cheat again here. What you got?

What you got next for us? I'm a parody of myself on this show. And I didn't want to do this. I did not want to do this. When I made my initial list, I did not have him on here. I think that by the end of this season, we are going to talk about Justin Herbert as, I think he's going to be right there with Patrick Mahomes as like a 1B of the best

quarterbacks in the NFL, the under the age of like 35. Rogers and Brady are a different thing to me. They're like the PhD level. They're going to dominate in a way that as long as they're in the league, I think they're still going to play at that level until they want to walk away. But you have that second kind of younger group of quarterbacks. And I love Josh Allen. And I think that we have that lasting memory of Josh Allen in that divisional round game

against the Chiefs. And Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes are kind of that next group. But I think that Justin Herbert's going to put himself right there with Patrick Holmes by the end of this season. And the reason that I threw him on here is I had a conversation with a coach over the last few days that was on that staff when Justin Herbert was a rookie. And we were talking about Herbert and he was saying, you know, it's not just the physical stuff. You remember we played the Raiders his rookie year. And he came to the line and we had his own beater called up. And they were in a cover zero look.

And he went and he checked and brought Hunter Henry in to block to make sure that we were accounting for that cover zero look. and then they bailed out of the cover zero look too early. And he came back to the line with 10 seconds left on the play clock, got us back into the original play, killed the audible, and we hit like a 25-yard game. And he's like, in that moment,

I was like, this dude is it. Like, he is the guy. And I just think that we forget that stuff. And, you know, there are plenty of quarterbacks around the league

that are getting the benefit of playing in an offense for the second straight season. I was just in Philly today. Jalen Hertz is playing in the same offensive system for the first time since he was in high school. And there are real benefits to that. And that's how Justin Herbert is. And last season, they did such a conscious job of taking stuff off his plate and putting

it on Corey Winsley's when it came to protections in certain checks. And when you have somebody like Corey who's incredibly smart, has been in the league for a really long time, it makes total sense to do that. But now they're going to let Justin Herbert be that computer at the line of scrimmage combined with that big guy throw far kind of element to his game that we really like. And they didn't win a ton of games last year. They barely missed the playoffs. And I think that the amount of talent they have on that team and the step forward,

I expect them to take organizationally, is going to change the narrative around him. He's not going to be a promising young quarterback anymore. He is going to be one of the guys by the end of the season. And to me, that could include an MVP award. I wouldn't be the slightest bit shocked about that. And I think if he does that, it changes the narrative around him, even if we already think he's pretty good. Now, you're right on changing the narrative because I think you talk about the young quarterbacks. And it's a group of guys who are coming up, you know, the Joe Burroughs, the Justin Herbert, you know, these type of players who winning is what changes it, right?

Joe Burrow didn't join that group until he made it to the Super Bowl. Justin Herbert hasn't made it to the playoffs yet. And so I think that you look at Justin Herbert and you're like, man, this dude is an amazing talent. that jump that you're talking about, that's when he becomes the guy. If he wins the MVP or is in the top three in the MVP voting and charge, go into the playoffs, maybe even win a playoff game, that redefines his narrative. And I must admit, and I guess a lot of people like this, I'm not alone. I did not see this coming with Justin Herbert.

I had no, I live here in Miami, and so I did a lot of Dolphins coverage. And during that draft, I watched more Justin Herbert tape than I think I've ever watched of any prospect ever. And I just didn't see it. I just didn't see it. So it shows that I am not a scout. Because clearly, you know, this dude became a superhero of a player already,

even before he makes the jump that you're predicting him to make. And so I think that he's the perfect fit in the Chargers as the face of their franchise. And for him, some of the things is just, like I said, it's just the winning. The yards get you, get you to the table. The wins, you know, make you. make you the man. So I don't think anybody has any doubts about Justin Herbert. As a skill set,

I think as you define him as top 10 to top five, top three, we all know what makes those guys different. Yeah. And I think that there's going to be a small table that him, Patrick Mahomes, are sitting at, and maybe there's a little offshoot of that table where Josh Allen and Joe Burrow are also there. But I think there's going to be no doubt left by the end of the season where Justin Herbert fits in the pecking order of those young guys. All right, who's your next one. So I actually want to switch it up, go to the defensive side of the ball. Let's do it. We talk a lot about offensive players. I love defense. I mentioned I'm down here in Miami. I'm going to go with second year safety, Javan Holland. He was on my list too. That's awesome.

I think that by the end of this season, he's going to be considered one of the best safeties of football. I think that he's a pro bowl player this year and one of the best safeties of football. It's crazy to me how many people just didn't know who he was. In fact, when we're talking to Mike McDaniel, the head coach there about Javon Holland, he was honest. He was like, I didn't know much about the guy when I took the job. And this is a dude who coaches him on a regular basis, but he's like, I know now. And this is a player who, you know, a second round pick for them a year ago, didn't play college football at all. His last year in college kind of sat out that year. He already is one of the leaders of their defense. I'm there at practice and you see him lining up guys who are 10 years older than him,

telling them where they go, where the play is. The way they work that Miami defense, he can be used as a deep safety, a guy who can come in the box. Him and his other safety, Brandon Jones, actually led all safeties and blitzes last season. This is a guy who's a free safety.

They're blitzing him off the edge to get sacks. So there's no holes in this game. I talked to an executive earlier this off season, and we're just talking football, like not any particular team. And when the Dolphins came up, the first name he mentioned to me was Javon. Not Tyree killed, not Jalen Waddle,

not to a Javan Hall. He was like, Javon Holland. I love that kid. And if I can share a brief story, you know, and this is kind of off the field stuff, but it's something that kind of makes me confirm my belief

that he's going to be him. I was at the Pro Bowl in February. And Xavier Howard has been like the only Dolphins player that's been to the Pro Bowl last four or five years. They haven't had much talent. Tell it there. But he decided to bring Javon Holland with him. So the Pro Bowl, kind of soak it all up.

Javon's having to live. little camera doing some stuff with the team the team site. And I pulled him off to the side at some point and was just talking to him about his experience. And so his eyes light up just about soaking it in, talking to some of the guys, talking to Honey Badger, talking to some of other safety there. And he just looks me dead in my eyes and says, I guarantee you, when I'm back here, it's going to be because I'm voted here. And I almost got chills when he said it. I love that. I love that. This dude, this dude, this dude, this dude has got it. Like I saw it on the field. But once he told me that. I'm like, all right, I got it. I got it. And so he's, he's my pick of, of the next breakout defensive

player. I love that. I had him and Antoine Winfield Jr. to me in the same breath. I lump them together because I just love guys who can do a little bit of everything. And that's what Chavon Holland can do. And when you're looking at the way that teams are trying to build their secondaries as a way to combat the way that teams are trying to build their receiving core, having that guy that can, all right, if I need to play a slot corner, he can play a slot corner. If I didn't play down in the box, he can play down in the box. If I need him to play in the deep middle, he can play in the deep middle. Having one guy who can do all those things, the flexibility it gives your defense is incredible.

And especially if you're a team like Miami, who's carrying over their defensive scheme for a reason this year, right? Right. Because they have players that fit it. They did it well. Having that skeleton key type of guy that really unlocks the elements of how you want to play is just so incredible. incredibly important. And I went back and I was watching the Eagles Bucks playoff game earlier today because I wanted to watch it before I went to Eagles camp to talk to some people.

And how often Winfield was being used as a blitzer from the slot. And when you have that guy, all right, I can play you a man coverage on a slot receiver. I can have you as a run defender in the box and I can bring you on those blitzes just as a way to keep teams off balance. Those guys are so incredibly valuable with the matchup-driven asses. of how we're playing offense and defense in the league. So I think that that's why we're going to talk about both of them in a slightly different way by the end of this season than we do right now.

And as you're mentioning matchup stuff, it brought up your Justin Jefferson conversation, right? You're talking about all these receivers, these bigger receivers who in past errors were outside receivers being moved in the slot. You're going to need those sort of hybrid players who can be able to cover those guys in the pinch but still handle their free safety role or their box safety role, not afraid to tackle. That's so hard of a player to find. I think maybe five or ten years ago was the slot corner that was like everybody needs a slot corner because now we're seeing offenses go to three receivers.

Now it's knowing that everybody's putting their best receiver in the inside. So who are you going to have in the middle of the field that can not only match up with that guy man to man, but can also tell the defense what's going on. This guy, they're moving Tyree Kill in the slot. We have to change what we're doing. They're moving Justin Jefferson in the slot. So the communicator, the physical player, the cover guy, man and zone, and a guy who can blitz off the side. I love Winfield as well.

I think that those type of players are going to be the guys that redefine the safety market again. And maybe in five years we're talking about safety the same way we're talking about receivers and the way they get paid salary-wise because of how all they do on the field. I could see that. we'll see if it comes to fruition, but I can see that because of players like Javon and Antoine Woodfield. They're absolutely going to drive it. And it's the same when you're looking at an offense and saying,

well, where's 17 lined up? Where's 10 lined up? Like, where are they on this play? When you're looking at defenses and their team's playing the dolphins, where's eight? You know, when Tyra Matthew was playing this kind of role, whatever number 31, right? Simon Matthew 31.

It's like, where's 31 at? Like, that's what you need to do. It just makes it a little bit harder. It's just adding one layer. of difficulty to an offense, and I think those are the exact type of guys who are going to do this. All right, I'm going to pick a non-superstar player here and actually follow the spirit of the exercise. I'm going to go with Andrew Thomas, the left tackle for the Giants. Because, and this is the exact type of guy I think fits what we're talking about here.

When you have somebody that's drafted in the top five and they have some struggles early on, that can follow a guy, especially at that position where your failings are kind of out there for every. one to see. And he had a rough go of it early on. And I think a lot of offensive linemen coming through that franchise had a rough go of it after the list for three or four years. Of all the positions, they struggled to figure out. That one was at the forefront because they were cycling between offensive line coaches. They were cycling between offensive coordinators.

In the same way, you can set up a quarterback to fail by doing that. I think you can set up a left tackle to fail by doing that. And he did such a good job late last season. If you look at his numbers and his performance in pure dropback situations, he was pretty darn good. I mean, it's not just that he's a functional left tackle anymore. I think he has a chance to be a really good player. And I think that it extends. I'm talking about young guys.

He's 23 years old as well. So he's 23. And if he can figure that out and he really puts it all together this year at 23, he becomes a building block him. Talking to some people there over the last couple days. That offensive line group has been much maligned during the Daniel Jones era, and rightfully so. They haven't had a lot of talent. They've missed on some draft picks. I think that has a chance to go from what we perceived as a weakness over the last couple years

to a relative strength for them over the next few seasons. They draft Evan Neal, obviously. Maybe he doesn't hit the ground running right away, but I think he's going to be a good right tackle. I think Thomas is going to be a very good left tackle. They signed John Feliciano and Free Agency to kind of be a stabilizing presence for them at center. They signed Mark Lewinsky in Free Agency, who's worked with their offensive line coach,

Bobby Johnson, before. And I know he's hurt right now. We'll see if he's back by week one. I think he's got a little bit of a toe issue coming out of that first preseason game. But Shane Lemieux, who got hurt for them last year, is going to play a left guard for them this season. He's under contract for a few years.

So they have potentially four starters, and they drafted a guy in the third round this year that I think they can step in if Feliciano eventually moves on, where they have a group of five offensive line. that are under contract for multiple seasons. And it seems like a total teardown there in a lot of ways. But I think that group potentially has a chance to really be an attractive place for whatever quarterback they end up going to get, whether it's in the draft, free agency, or a trade market.

I don't think it's going to be Daniel Jones. But I think Andrew Thomas is kind of the driving force behind that. So I think he really sets the tone for it. But I think that offensive line in general has a chance to be better faster than a lot people from the outside are probably thinking. I'm glad that you are not pretending that Daniel Jones is going to continue to be a thing. So many people are continuing to believe that Daniel Jones is going to continue to be a thing. The bar he has to clear to keep his job there into next season is so, so high.

And again, the franchise did him no favors. He was putting some rough spots over the last few years. But I think he has to be so incredibly good for them to not seek out an alternative. then I think it's going to be hard for him to get there. I am 100% with you. I just have been shocked how many people have, you know, whether it's national media or local media, have tried to sell Daniel Jones in this year as a guy who can, you know,

legitimately save his job and we'll do so. I just don't see it. Maybe I'm wrong. I just don't see it. But to your point about Andrew Thomas in narratives, narratives are so hard to shed. Yeah. Because early on, he did start to get that bus label.

You're comparing him to guys like Tristan Worst who comes out and becomes a dominant player immediately in his career. And so you're like, was he drafted too high? Should you have taken this player instead of that player? And you start to put the reps in, but it still takes two, three years past when you're actually a good player for people to start realizing, well, wow, Andrew Thomas actually was a good pick for them.

And so we always talk about building. And the Giants are building right now, even though they don't have a quarterback yet. I think that offensive line is how you solidify that roster, you know, not even about guys who are they, not even about Daniel Jones or Saquan. It's about building that giant's front, again, to be fearful. That's where they were when they were making those runs, those Super Bowl runs.

I mean, they had a really, really stout defense, but they had a veteran trusted offense line for Eli Manning as well. And so I'm with you. I think Andrew Thomas redefining his narrative and becoming one of the top tackles in the league, whether people realize it or not would be quite a jump for him and for the Giants as well. Who's your next guy? I'm actually going to switch it up since we've been doing a little bit obscure guys. I had a couple offensive guys I was going to mention.

But I'm going to go back on the defensive side and mention tightest defensive tackle Jeffrey Simmons here. I think that he is going to be the best defensive player in the league not named Aaron Donald by the end of the year. I love it. That is spicy. I love it. All right, lay it on me. So these are, you know, I'm bringing a little bit of hot take love here. But I think Jeffrey Simmons is phenomenal.

And I know that he's not the hot name. that a lot of people will think of when they think of elite, elite players. But I had the luxury of watching a lot of Titans game last year. And I remember that game. They played the Buffalo Bills in Tennessee. It was a either Sunday or Monday night game. It was a Monday night game.

It was a great game. The Monday night game. And it was a fantastic game. I got down the field level and they were making that last drive. And I see guys literally biting their fingernails on the sideline, just like I would be if I was watching at home. And on fourth down, Josh Allen, the six, five, 250 pound, however much he weighs, dude, trying to get inside for the fourth downstop,

and Jeffrey Simmons smashes him in a hole and stops him. And I think that was probably when a lot of America was introduced to Jeffrey Simmons. Now, a lot of football communities knew him before, but that was a lot of America, like, wow, who is this 98 dude? I think that he's already one of the top five defensive defense alignment in football, but I think that he hasn't been seen as the game changer elite player. That Titans defense line last year, in my opinion, was the best defense line in football.

When you look at Jeffrey Simmons, DeNico Altrey, Harold Landry, Bud Dupree, they were getting sacks. They were getting production from every single spot. And Jeffrey Simmons is the anchor of that. And let me tell you this,

I wasn't a fan of them trading A.J. Brown. I have a lot of questions about what the Titans are going to be this year. Are they still going to be that center? But I think a big reason of why they traded A.J. Brown is they know they're going to have to back to bring the truck up for Jeffrey Simmons very soon. And he's going to want Aaron Donald money.

And so this is a guy who I think is a game changer. If you ask quarterbacks, what do they fear more interior pass rush or outside pass rush? They're going to tell you inside pass rush every single time. And this guy does it better, in my opinion, by the end of the year, than anybody other than Aaron Donald. And so he is the star in Nashville outside of Derek Henry. And I think the world is going to know it pretty soon. his rookie year, not a lost season, but obviously coming in after being hurt, he only played about 300 snaps. It's really, really difficult on young players, especially at that position.

There's so much happening as an interior defensive alignment. I think that we just expect guys to hit the ground running, but it's really difficult to do that. So last year, in a lot of ways, was his first year in the league. His first full season, the guy has 62 pressures, which was top five among defensive tackles. And there's no reason to not think he's going to build on that this year. Titans defense was one of my favorite groups of the league to watch last season. When you talk to offensive coaches, some of the stuff the Titans were doing, I think the kernels of what they wanted to be on defense with some of those simulated pressures,

with some of those ways of making things look the same but unfolding a little bit differently. I think some smart defensive coordinators are going to take elements of that and try to inject into what they're doing. And when you have a defensive line that can dominate the game, it allows you a lot of flexibility. And I think that in a lot of ways starts with Jeffrey Simmons. So I think that's a really good one. Best defensive player in the league, not named Aaron Donald is real good. I like that a lot. I'm making it spicy.

I'm making it spicy. And briefly, you mentioned that first year, I got to give credit. Like a lot of times you see the risks that GMs take, Titans GM, John Robinson, taking a guy who had questions off the field, had the knee injury. You're taking a guy who you may have to redshirt your first year. But now I'm talking about him as the best defensive player, not named Aaron Donald. They took him in a 19th overall pick.

That would be a heck of a win. The Titans defense had nine sacks of Joe Burrow last year in their playoff game. People forget that because Ryan Tanna held through three interceptions and lost the game. But this Titans defense, as much as we love to talk about Derek Henry and that, that's the face of that team, the Titans defense. And Jeffrey Simmons is the face of that defense. I'm going to go with the defensive player from my next one, too. I'm going to go with Charverius Ward. Because he's hurt right now.

He's got a little bit of a soft tissue thing. that gives me a tiny bit of pause. That stuff can linger in a way that I'm a little bit worried about. But watching them even go through individual drills at Niners' camp. And the mindset he plays with. And when you play that kind of quarters-heavy system that the Niners play with, some of it is baked into the call, but some of it is leeway they give the players. If you're a corner in that defense, you can come up in muscle guys if you want to every once in a while.

And that's how he wants to play. In Kansas City, they played a lot of press coverage, and he was allowed to do that. But it's funny when guys change teams and they move from a team with one sort of identity to another sort of identity, we look at them a little bit differently. I think the Niners defense is going to drive a lot of their success this year.

And if he's a big part of that, we start talking about him as more of a superstar than, he's a piece of that Chief's defense that kind of just hangs on. Right? So I think that's going to happen with him. And even guys like Jimmy Ward, I feel like we don't talk about. about Jimmy Ward a lot. By the end of last season, obviously everyone knows the Titans

Defend, or the Niners Defensive Line, I think more casual football fans could probably tell you who the Niners defensive line coach is more than pretty much any other position coach in the league. That back seven for the Niners, I don't think it's the same amount of attention or love. I think this season and with D'Amico Ryan's there and what they looked like by the end of last year, I think that group is going to have a little bit more of a spotlight, the spotlight shined on them and the way he's looked at camp and the contract that they gave him, I think Charveris Ward is going to be a big part of that. I love it. I love it. I love it. I think that, first of all, I love that we're giving defense players love. Too often we're just offense

heavy. But I love it. I think that they got to stay healthy. But if they do, I love that defense and I love Ward as really a center face in it. You mentioned, you know, just kind of how they, how you view the 49ers in the 49ers front versus the DBs. I think a lot of that is because you get a guy like a Nick Boza and some of those other players who just just pressure, pressure, pressure, and it redefines how we think about your defense. And a lot of the times your DBEs are only, you know, getting credit if they're getting interceptions, interceptions, interceptions. And so a lot of the corners that we think are the best corners in the league or the corners

who lead the Trayvon Diggs, right? We can have a whole discussion about Trayvon Diggs, whether he's a great corner or not. But we know him when we speak of his name as some of the top corners because of the interceptions. I think when you mentioned a guy like Ward, I think he's a definition of a player who I don't think he needs to have seven, eight interceptions for you to really truly see him as a great player. You mentioned Nick Bosa. He doesn't really count on this list either. I think he's a guy that by the end of this season could be in that conversation about best defensive players, not name Aaron Donald. I think we kind of are forgetting how good Nick Bosa is. And I think the same goes for Joey Bosa. Because the, the Chargers defense was so mad last season. And we joked on this show. It was Bosa and the Bossettes was their defensive front. And now that you have Kulowel-Mack there, now that you have some guys who can eat blocks up front, in those pure third and seven got-a-have-it moments, the Bosa's are the guys I want.

And I think by the end of this season, if they both get 15, 16 sacks, if they're both on playoff teams, I know everyone already knows they're good. But I think both of those guys have a chance to be in the run for defensive player of the year. And maybe not tell everyone or reshape how we think about that. but maybe just remind everybody of just how good they both are. I think you're absolutely right. I think the Boza brother, especially Joey, get under the radar more than his brother. And some of that's been his health issues.

He hasn't been able to be healthy consistently. But, you know, I'm interested to see the Chargers. That's a team that they kind of fell on the radar because the Rams are the team there. A lot of people are talking about Justin Herbert? Are they going to live up to the expectations finally? It feels like every year we say Chargers, charges are the high. hot team. Chargers are the hot team. This year seems like it has to be the year, right? If it's not, I don't know what I'm going to do. I don't know what I'm going to do.

If they don't do it this year, trust me, it's become a running joke on this show and people let me hear about it all the time. If they don't do it this year, I think I have to leave the country. I truly think that I have to rethink what I do for a living if the Chargers go like seven and ten this year or go eight and nine and miss the playoffs. I don't think I'm allowed back in football media. And I really do. like doing this. So if that happens, I think I'd be pretty sad. You're good at it. We would miss you. We would miss you. I appreciate that. I really appreciate that. All right, do you have one more? Yeah, I'm going to actually mention two guys very briefly. Let's do it. I'm going to start in

Carolina. DJ Moore has consistently been, I'd say, one of the top 20-ish receivers in football throughout his career. But I think that this season, he could jump into that. top 10. I think that whatever you think about Baker Mayfield, I think he's going to be the best quarterback that best passing quarterback that DJ Moore has had in his NFL career. And I was looking up stats. I think he's been about 1,100 yards back to back seasons. Carolina Panthers single season records, 15,600 yards by Steve Smith. Would it shock me if he threatens that record? No. I think that DJ Moore and what he does is a perfect fit for what the Carolina Panthers to run on offense. They want to have quick decisions, a lot of intermediate and short routes,

getting the ball out to their top playmakers. Christian McCaffrey can't take all the catches. I've been hearing about some of the connections there. DJ Moore has been Baker Mayfield's favorite receiver. I think you can once again be that connection that Baker looks to and trusts in those key situations. And a lot of people are looking at Carolina at maybe this team explodes. They fire Matt Rule. They're back in the quarterback mix. I think this team can start off strong. I don't know about what they do in December into the playoffs, but it would not shock me the first two or three months of the season. If they start off with a winning record,

the offense is humming, and that Baker to DJ Moore connection leads them as, you know, a top five receiving team, receiving yardage for DJ Moore early on in the season. So I love DJ Moore there. The second one, Travis E.T.N. I know he's not a guy who has much of a narrative because he hasn't played in the league, but I think that he can end up being the Jamal Charles of that offense

eventually for 12 Peterson. If you think back to Doug Peterson in Kansas City when he was the OCE there, Jamal Charles was the workhorse there. I think that ETN is much better than even we think and the buzz. Like I don't want to add to the ETN hype train because it's already going super far. But I was there in camp for two days and I'm going to be up there at some point again before the season starts. ETN was by far the best player on the field to me.

He just looked amazing. So thinking about how Jamal Charles was used as a runner as a receiver, I think that I love James Robinson. I think when he's healthy, he's going to have a role. But I don't think there's any doubt to me that Travis E.T.N. is going to be the guy in that offense. I think he's going to lead the team in receptions. And I think that he's going to lead the team in rushing.

And I think he's going to do that for many, many years. I love this because I was this off of him. I was the guy, you know, there's so much hype. And I think part of it is fantasy narrative driven, where he's so hard. high and she's like, we haven't even seen him playing. What's that offense going to look like? I love the Jamal Charles thing.

I wouldn't have put that together. Jamal Charles is one of my all-time favorite NFL players. I love Jamal Charles so, so much. I forgot that Doug was there. And you think about the receiving talent and the way that they can use him, even those little snippets from the preseason game, the way ETN moves and some of the matchups they're going to be able to create for him out of the backfield, I like that a lot.

That's really, really good. And with DJ Moore, DJ Moore caught 93%. passes for 1150 yards last year for a team that finished dead last in passing right away dead last right how many how many people do you think knew that DJ Moore called 93 passes for 1157 years before 30 seconds ago I wasn't one of them so I assume not very many I it is we always talk about it if you're going from the worst quarterback play in football truly the worst and that's what they had last season to merely yoker right merely below average that is

It's such a huge, huge jump. And I don't know what the panther ceiling is this season on offense, but I know their floor is a lot higher than it was. And if you're raising that floor, a guy like DJ Moore is somebody that benefits. So I like both of them. You've sent me back to the drawing board with my Travis E.TN takes. I'm going to sit with it a little bit longer. I appreciate that. I'll say one thing.

Travis E.T.N does have to be a little bit better in following his blocks. He's a little bit jump happy because he's still a college back in his line. So I do want to see them say discipline, but I don't think there's a more dynamic player in that Jaguar's offense and they desperately need dynamic players. So I think you're going to be hearing Travis E.TN quite a bit this season. I like that a lot. I like that a lot. All right. That's all we got.

Cam Wolf, thank you very, very much, my friend. Really enjoyed doing this. Please go check out all of Cam's work at the NFL network. What's your travel plans? Are you mostly home now? No, so I just got back from a seven city road trip on training camp. I'm going back up to Nashville. So I'll be catching joint practices between the Titans and Bucks up there.

So I'll be doing that. Then I'll be coming down to Miami to check them out against the Raiders and eventually be going back up to Atlanta and within the next week as well. So three more trips in the next seven to ten days. And then things slow down a little bit more as we get into regular season mode. That's awesome. I keep not telling people this and I probably should. I'm in Washington on Monday up in Ashburn at Washington.

in practice, which we don't say the name of that team on the show. And then on Tuesday, I'm going to La Trobe to be with the Steelers. Wednesday, I'll be in Cincinnati with the Bengals. Thursday, I will be in Indianapolis where the Colts are doing joint practices. I believe with the Lions, and I will be there for a day. So that's what we'll be doing. I will have check-ins with all of our writers from those places. Speaking of, on tomorrow's show, we are going to do a set of camp visits that I have been doing over the last couple of days.

We're going to talk to Bull Wolf, our Eagles writer. We're going to talk to Jeff Zerebeck, our Ravens writer, and Ben Standick, who covers the Washington football team for us. That is going to be tomorrow's show for a variety of reasons. So excited about that, excited about this and you guys hearing it. Camp, thank you very much for the time, my friend. We'll talk to you down the road. Appreciate you, my guy. All right, guys, that's all we got today.

Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I would sincerely appreciate that. It's August 15th. We're getting toward the season. If you like the podcast, tell us. If you don't, don't do anything. Please subscribe to the athletic. I'm telling you, coming out of preseason games,

trying to figure out what matters, what doesn't, who is getting snap counts, who is getting run with the ones, what coaches are saying about the performances for some of these guys. That's the type of stuff you have to get at the athletic. Everyone we have is plugged in. Theathletic.com slash football show.

If you do not have a subscription, I highly encourage you guys to go get one. We'll be back tomorrow with a set of team visits from this trip. Until then, Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.