The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Keefer and the Beats: Brandon Staley's downfall, Sean McVay's rebound, and Mark Davis' next head coaching search

Episode Date: December 19, 2023

Keefer and the Beats, takes a west coast swing this week, starting with Daniel Popper's insight into the Chargers' firings. Then, Zak stays in Los Angeles to discuss how Sean McVay and Matthew Stafford have revived the Rams with Jourdan Rodrigue. Finally, Tashan Reed gets into his conversation with Raiders owner Mark Davis and whether Antonio Pierce could be the solution at head coach. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome back to the athletic football show. This is Zach Heifer, here to dig into week 15 across the NFL. I thought the statement of the day came yesterday in Orchard Park, New York, where the bills utterly embarrassed the Dallas Cowboys from the opening kickoff. And it made me think of what Tim Graham, our bills writer, said a couple weeks back on this show. If Buffalo can find its way into the playoffs, it's still a big if. That's going to be a really skis.

team. We saw yesterday why that's true. The wild part is them winning the AFC East is very much not out of the question. If you don't agree, you got to check out the Dolphins schedule the rest of the way. That could be a pivotal matchup week 18 in Miami between the bills and the dolphins. In the AFC South, we have a three-team tie at the top. The Jackwires have lost three in a row. They're eight and six. Same as the cold. Same as the Texans who both won over the weekend with backup quarterbacks. Hell of a job this season by those two heads. coaches, Shane Steichen and Indy, D'Amico Ryan's in Houston. Another coach who's doing a great job is Kevin Stefansky, his Browns, with Joe Flacco at

quarterback, snuck out a win yesterday over the bears to inch closer to the playoffs. The 49ers are the NFC's first 11-win team, and we've got a good one coming in San Francisco next week when the Ravens come to visit. Both of the NFL's two 11-win teams will play at Levi Stadium. That right there could be a Super Bowl preview. But for this week's episode, we're going to bounce around the West Coast. of sorts. We'll start in L.A. with Daniel Popper, our Chargers Beat Rider, eventful week out there. They were pummeled 63 to 21 Thursday night in Las Vegas. Everyone saw that. Then they fired their

head coach Brandon Staley and the GM Tom Telesco the following morning. Really good conversation with Daniel about all the reasons that went into this. Tons, tons of insight on Brandon Staley's coaching style, his personality, his approach, and the flaws that he brought to the table as a head coach that eventually cost him his job. Really good conversation with Daniel, as always, and it's going to be interesting to see if this team keeps repeating the same mistakes that have plagued them for not just years but decades. For conversation two, we'll stay in L.A. and talk to Jordan Rodriguez,

who does a terrific job covering the Rams for us, and rather quietly, Sean McVeigh is doing as good of a coaching job as he's maybe ever done in the NFL. I know that's a crazy thing to say. He won a Super Bowl. He made it to another, but really good insight. from Jordan on the change in the franchise out in L.A. and how they've done it this year with a very, very young defense. And really an old Matthew Stafford, an old Cooper Cup and an emerging

whiteout in Puka Nassua. Really good conversation about Matthew Stafford's season as well. And we had some choice words for those who are not watching the tape because that guy is bawling out right now. Finally, the ever-interesting Las Vegas Raiders, again, who beat the breaks off the chargers on Thursday night. We chatted with Chishon Reed, who sat down with owner Mark Davis recently and asked about the state of the franchise, firing another coach, and if Antonio Pierce is coaching for the permanent job the last three weeks in Las Vegas. All right, Keith from the Beats, Week 15, let's go. All right, let's start in Los Angeles, California, with our Chargers Beat Rider, Daniel Popper,

who's probably been the busiest person at the athletic the last couple days. I hope you got a little bit of a breather over the weekend, but let's be honest. I doubt you did. Let's start here, Daniel, let's go back to Thursday. And the Chargers are going to Las Vegas to play the Raiders on Thursday night football, and they're doing it without Justin Herbert. And we all know what he means to that offense, to that team. I want to get your perspective on what you expected to see, right?

They're going to start this kid named Easton Stick. And the playoffs are probably a long shot, but we didn't expect to see what we saw. What was your expectation when you got to the stadium that night about what kind of football you thought the Chargers were going to play? So, I mean, I didn't see, you know, any indication that, that this was a team ready to give up. You know, just talking to guys in the locker room all week. Like, obviously, everyone was immensely disappointed that they had lost Justin Herbert.

They sort of knew what the stakes were at that point, that the playoffs were an afterthought. But from what I gathered, like, this was a team that still had pride, you know, that still was going to go out and try and battle. And they knew what the opportunity meant for East and Stick. You know, the last time he'd started a game was five years ago, 1,8804 days when he was North Dakota State starting quarterback in the FCS National Championship game. That was the last time he'd started a non-exhibition football game. So for him, this was everything.

This was career-defining. And it felt like there was enough there, enough motivation for the guys to sort of rally around Easton sticking, like, at least try, like, at least give 100% effort. That did not happen. I think it was a combination of things. Like, I don't think that the players went out there from the jump and just decided, okay, like, we're just going to mail it in here. but it was one of those things where you had two turnovers early in the game.

The Raiders scored off both those turnovers, and they looked up at the scoreboard, and it was 21-0, and I think being at that point at this stage of the season, losing by that margin to a division opponent already, I think it just sort of unraveled from there. But I'll be fully honest with you and say that, you know, I didn't certainly see any indication. I don't know if anyone could ever see any indication that a team with still some good players out there is going to go out and lose 63 to 21, be down 56.

points in the second half to a division opponent. Like it's hard to predict something that catastrophic. No, not when they have players. I mean, you can debate how good the Chargers really are. But at what point in the game did your mind shift from this is just a loss? This is just a really bad loss to he's not going to be able to coach this team next week because he's going to get fired. Like when did you shift into like, oh boy, there might be some pink slips coming.

It was probably at halftime. I mean, it was so fast and furious. first half and it's just unraveling. It was like 42 zip at halftime, right? That's when you're like, this is embarrassing. You know, 42 to nothing at halftime, you're like, all right, I mean, you know, I knew that ownership did not want to make a move until after the season. That did, they did not want to make a move at GM or coach until after the season. It's how they operate. There's a reason they haven't done in-season coaching moves since 1998 with Kevin Gilbred. Like, it's just how they operate. They prefer to let the dust settle to get together

as a group and to really have the thorough conversation that's necessary before making any sort of a need-jerk decision, which is like a good process, I think, in my opinion. But it was at that point where, you know, you start thinking, okay, like, you know, this could happen. Now, I think if they had come out in the second half and battled and shut them out the Raiders in the second half and made it, you know, 42-28 or something like respectable, I think there was a chance. So it was really those two defensive touchdowns in the second half, you know, especially that pick six, you know, where it's just like, you know, Jack Jones read the play, newest green was coming, had watched enough film. What a play. It was like one of those moments where just like this, this group is not only

playing harder, but better prepared than this group to play in this football game. And, you know, but there were other moments. I mean, like, Brandon Bolden's 26-yard touchdown, you know, that was probably the first moment where I'm like, okay, this is, I know what this looks like. I've covered, you know, most of these defensive players for their entire careers, whether it's Durwin James, Lohe Gilman, Michael Davis. Like, I've been covering this team since 2019. I've seen these guys grow. I've seen what it looks like when they're playing good football and they're engaged. You know, for a guy that hasn't had a 25-yard run since 2018 on his first carry of the season out of Wildcat to go into the end zone untouched when you saw all these players around,

you know, you started to think, okay, this could be, this could be really, really, you know, unraveling here. But yeah, I mean, those two defensive touchdowns. I mean, and then right like a 327 pound defensive lineman you know taking a fumble 44 yards for a touchdown untouched it's like these little moments and then you know so after that brand of bold a touchdown i wrote my notebook effort plays underlined and i just started adding to that that's when you start to see the wheels go off now you had a very fascinating story a couple days later on brandon staley and he has a very unique rise in the coaching ranks he was a head coach within like five years of being on the NFL staff which you just don't see.

I want to know about the Brandon Staley that you covered on a daily basis and in the private moments you had with them, whether it was a one-on-one interview or what, because you wrote such a fascinating peek into who he was, these are your words, balancing that very fine line between conviction and arrogance. And we saw that in press conferences in the last couple of weeks, and you had an interesting quote,

he's a good, smart effing coach, a team source set of Staley, too smart for his own good sometimes. where was the downfall when we talk about Brandon Staley specifically? Yeah, I mean, I think I wrote it in there as well. I think the downfall for him was ironically the unwavering belief in himself. Like he believed in he still believes in himself so strongly. Right. Like, I mean, I think he still said it in that final press conference until the end of that press conference saying that like, you know, all great coaches have games like this.

You know, why should you be the coach? Well, I still believe in myself. I know that I'm a good coach. And so I think he is like wildly intelligent. I think he's a very, very, very smart coach. Now, that can make you a really successful coordinator in the NFL. If you are able to see things on the whiteboard, if you're able to concoct these defensive schemes and structures,

if you can invest fully in one side of the ball, you can be really successful in that area. That doesn't necessarily translate to head coaching. And I think over Dranden Staley's tenure, what I've learned in terms of covering the league is that job is all about leadership. All about leadership. It has very little to do with how smart you are in terms of X's and O's. It has everything to do with can you stand up there in a team meeting, all right? And can you get, you know, 50 to 100 men to buy into a singular goal and message and go out there and do it week after week, put their bodies on the lines, you know,

sacrifice time with their families to believe in this one goal and this one mission of an organization. Like, that's what it's all about. And so for Brandon Staley, I think what happened was is he had this, he felt like he could control and influence all facets of the team with his intelligence and his and his football IQ. And, you know, wasn't as good at transmitting, you know, those ideas to the players and getting them to a point where they could execute it consistently on a week to week basis. That was specifically the case with the defense. and I had players all season and I wrote it in that story just frustrated at

how many rules and how many different things they were trying to implement over the course of the season instead of looking at it and saying like okay we don't need an answer for everything like we don't need an answer for when the third string running back

goes on short motion out of a two by two with this much time left but Staley does he does doesn't he? I don't know if he's ever going to be any different Because he believes, and I think he's correct in this, he believes that he has an answer to everything. He knows that because he understands football at such a high level and has that capacity, that he can come up with an answer on a whiteboard to every single problem that a defense can face.

It is impressive. And players would tell you that. Like, that is how he operates. That's how smart he is. But that's not what being a head coach is about. And that's honestly not what being successful in the NFL is about. Can you get your players to play fast? Can you get them to buy in?

Right. And I think it got to a point midway through the season, you know, kind of after that lion's loss where the players are just like, it's just too much. We're going in there and breaking down the film and they're adding in, okay, when this happens, we got to do this. And when this happens, we got to do this. And when this happens, we got to do this. And you see it. And the guys on the field are taking a half a second to think like, okay, like, okay, we're in the meeting. We added this rule for this formation. Boom.

All of a sudden, you can't play fast. You're no longer in your deep quarter and there's an explosive play behind you because you're focused on some rule that they made a best. covering the flat and a specific motion out of a specific formation, right? Like that's like getting into the weeds of what it, what it means to translate a scheme to your players and get them to buy in and play fast. And there was always that sort of disconnect. I think the players believed in the scheme on the whiteboard. Like I had players tell me that.

They believed that this scheme is a sound scheme, that it can be a good defense. But they sort of talked about how, you know, they were trying to add all of these layers in between like the main structures of the scheme. It was all these different layers, window dressing and different stuff. Like if you're talking like, you're using the analogy of like a house, it's like adding all of these little details to the house instead of focusing on like the real structure of the house, the foundation of the house. And ultimately, if you're focused on all these minor little details and not the structure and foundation, it's going to fall apart. And I think that ultimately

that's what happened. That's really fascinating because the more you talk to NFL coaches, especially the older experienced ones, they will tell you the job is more CEO than it is football scheme, which it sounds crazy, right? And some of them even say, like, I wish I could coach more. And that I mean, like, position coach, detail on the grass type stuff. It's a little bit more art than it is science in terms of, like, getting guys to buy in and getting them to play every week. But let's shift gears to the other guy that was fired. And Tom Telesco had been there for 13 years. He was with the Colts under Bill Pulling forever. So really only two NFL stops for him. But I want you to listen to this clip from Randy Mueller on our football GM podcast last

week. Now, Randy had a really interesting comment about the Chargers organization. He was there for 10 years as the senior executive for football operations. And this was after he was a GM for the Saints and Dolphins. So let's listen to this and then I want to get your response. It's been a tough franchise. I mean, like I say, I spent 10 years there, Mike, and the best way I can describe it was, I don't want to say I wasted 10 years, but it was a really hard 10 years because we never got ahead. I felt like we never did enough. And nobody ever asked the hard, questions. Nobody ever held anybody accountable like I would have liked to. And frankly, I came from Nick Sabin in Miami where we spent two years of Alasking daily questions and you tape your ankles

every day and you are over the top organized and procedurally oriented. And the questions do get asked. And my time in San Diego was probably just the opposite of that. I never saw any hard questions being asked and anybody ever saying, what are we doing here? That just never happened in the presence of most of us rank and file employees. Okay, Daniel, the first time I heard this, it stopped me. It was like, whoa, that's something you hear a lot about an NFL organization. But you're there every day. You know the ownership.

You know the executives there. You know the team. What's your response to that? Yeah. I think it sort of ties into the last conversation that we had. Exactly. Right? Talking about some of the limitations that ownership can provide on an organization, right?

And so, you know, what I think what Randy was getting, at there as far as like not asking the hard questions. Like there's a standard that certain organizations have as far as like this is what we want to be. And we are willing to do anything, you know, financially or otherwise to get our organization there. Like if do we want to be a perennial Super Bowl candidate and what does it take to get there across the board? How do you operate? How you make decisions? How much money you're investing? You know, all of those things matter in terms of building that caliber of an organization. In order to get there, you have to consistently assess how you're operating. And that means asking tough questions,

right? And I think, like, I wrote in my column after the game that complacency is comfortable. Like, for the Chargers, like, they've always had good teams. They've always been interesting. They've always had a quarterback for the most part. But what do they want to be? Because there's a difference between a Super Bowl team and a fun preseason pick every year that underperforms. 100%. And so, like, though, that, like, when you're talking about tough questions, that, that, That's the tough question. Yeah, like I wonder how they would answer that question. Well, I'm going to find out today because we're going down to talk to John Spanos.

And I'm certainly going to ask him, you know, president of football operations. Like what is the standard? Like, what do you guys want to be as an organization? Like, because in order to get to that level, you have to ask tougher questions. You have to assess your process. You certainly under no circumstances can allow a general manager who has two playoff wins and 11 seasons to remain in the job that long. Like, it just doesn't happen.

and good organizations aren't patient because they're not comfortable in complacency. You know, and that's really the, that's, I haven't talked to Randy. That would be my guess as far as what he's getting at. Like, you have to, you have to really ask tough questions and assess your process and continue to improve as an organization. And then you have to set those standards for yourself that you want to reach if you want to be a perennial contender. Otherwise, you can just live in the complacency and have a decent team once every five years

and have the good quarterback and waste more talent. Like, that's ultimately, like, the, crossroads that I feel like the organization is at. I have a theory. We know they've had great quarterbacks, the last two being Herbert and Rivers. My theory is that those quarterbacks have camouflaged the inherent issues that have plagued

this franchise since, I don't know, the Dan Fouts days, right? Like, Rivers was good enough to make them competitive and to cover up the problems that were there, right? I mean, Rivers makes people better. I was around him in Indianapolis. You could feel it. That dude's for real. Herbert is so good. He makes the Chargers viable

at the very least. But like you said, there's all these issues. And like you've pointed out, before everyone else was talking about this, the cap hell they're going to be in next year, and really the way they've spent their money this year. Like, those are serious problems. And Herbert's good enough to give you some wins and throw it through 4,000 yards. But like, when are they going to ask those tough questions and change their way of thinking? Spanos said in the statement, it's time for a new vision. They've had the same vision for 20 years. Are you buying that they're going to look for a new vision? Or are they just going to recycle the same blueprint they've been running with? It's a good question.

Now, I can't say, like, I saw the statement. Words only mean so much, you know? Like, they have to go out and show that they're truly trying to reimagine what this thing is going to look like. What I do believe is that the Chargers know that this is an incredibly important stretch here, like these next five years, right? It's been six years since they moved to Los Angeles. They have to make an imprint in this city somewhere or another in order for this to be a viable location for them to play football. Otherwise, they're just going to be an afterthought for the rest of the time. Like, this is crucial.

Like they have to win now very soon. Their last three hires have been coordinators, right? Mike McCoy, Anthony Lynn, Brandon Staley. Do you think they do that differently? We won't know until mid-January, but doesn't it feel like it's time for at least them to knock the door down on, I'm just throwing names out, a Harbaugh, a Belichick, someone like that. That would be totally different than everything they've done in the past.

Yeah, yeah. I didn't include this guy in my candidates list, but I think Brian Flores is another guy that you can throw out there. somebody with like legitimate experience head coaching like I think more than anything what they'll be looking for is a leader like a grown up leader that can go in there and like steady the organization for in that regard but like as far as the belichick hard boss stuff right like I think in a vacuum it makes a ton of sense um but like we were talking about the last time i don't think bellichick does i don't think bellichick does at all no he's 71 like maybe you just lean on

Herbert being great with the offense, but like what he's done offensively the last couple years is just like I'm staying as far away from that as possible. Yeah. If I'm the charges. I think that's fair. But I do think like an experienced no BS guy is kind of the personality you're looking for. But again, I'm not hiring a head coach.

Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, though, like right. So like, okay, whoever, whatever name you want to throw in as far as experienced leader, right, like guy with skins on the wall, in a vacuum, it makes sense. But like, every team is also operating on a cash budget. You can't just like print more money, you know? Right. And so like these guys are going to be cheap.

They're building a brand new facility in El Segundo. That's slated to open up in March. Like state of the art facility. Like that costs money to build. They just put $133.7 million in escrow before this season for Justin Herbert's, you know, guaranteed money, fully guaranteed money on his deal. Like again, like there like there are different classes in the ownership ranks in terms of how much cash you have. And that's just the reality of it.

So, like, sure, if Bill Belchek, he's 27 wins away from tying Don Shula, if he wants to come, you know, work for the Chargers at a discount based on what he'd been making in New England, sure, then it's a conversation. But if he's going to be making $20 to $25 million a year, it is what it is, right? So, like, I think that has to be a part of the conversation here. I don't think it gets talked about enough in terms of decision making. And I think what ends up happening is, like, oh, well, like, they don't want to win because they're not going to get ex-coach that's going to cost a ton of money. John Payton, for example. Whereas, like, you know, I think the organization would love to have a coach like that, but there are like certain limitations as far as how they operate.

Like, that's just the reality of it. We should say it out loud because, you know, it needs to be a part of the conversation where you're discussing what they can do. Like there is a reason why they are hiring the up and coming coach. They're hiring the guy with one year of coordinating experience. Like there's a reason for that outside of them likeing Brandon Steeley a lot, you know, like so I think that all needs to be a part of the conversation. That's the nuance in the context that's really important here that needs to be discussed

from someone on the ground because people can yell all they want about, well, they don't want to go get the big name. It's like, well, no, there's a lot more to it behind the scenes that a lot of people don't know. Last thing, I'll let you go. You have a busy day. You're going to go talk to Spanos today. What do you want to hear? And you're not a fan, but you are interested in this organization in terms of what's going to change over the next couple years. It's not crazy to think Justin Herbert, I mean, he's entering the prime of his career. They should be competitive. It's not crazy for me to think that they screw this up again. What are you wanting to hear later today that might think things will be different? Yeah.

I want to know what they felt like they got wrong about Brandon. I want to know why Tom Telesco was in his job as long as he was and why they didn't make a change earlier. And then I want to know like what you've used this word reimagining. What does that mean? What needs to change as far as how you operate as an organization to prevent you from wasting another quarterback? Because that's that is the question. That's the whole question hovering over the franchise. Very few organizations have had this kind of quarterback luck.

Because remember, they had Drew Brees before Philip Rivers. It's been my entire lifetime. They've had legitimate franchise quarterbacks. And they have nothing to show for it. They haven't been doing an AFC championship game since 2007. That was like Philip's second year as a starter. Yeah, he played on a torn ACL. Some of this stuff I feel like flies under the radar because of just the reality of where they are as an organization in the landscape of the NFL.

oh, like people will check out on the chargers if they're not interesting, right? And so you lose sight of the fact that like, despite the fact that they've had this amazing quarterback luck. Now, some of it is like drafting and finding the right players and all of that stuff. But like to stumble into the two franchise quarterbacks and have nothing to show for it and to be five and nine in this season where you had such high expectations, like something isn't going right? And I want to know, like, what were the mistakes that were made and how do you rectify it?

And what will you do differently moving forward from an organizational standpoint to make sure that you do not waste this kid? because we have all watched him play. He is a stud. I think we saw it in that Thursday night game what he means from a leadership standpoint. I don't think anyone's talking about that. As soon as he leaves the game,

as soon as he misses the first game of his entire career, the team quits. That's what that guy means. He might not talk and beat his chest and stuff. The way he plays and the opportunities that he gives the team and the chance to win he gives them every single time he steps on the field, that means a lot.

And he needs some freaking help. So get him some help and figure out how to do it, and I want to know how they're going to go about doing that. That's really good. I'm anxious to read your story. A lot of people have debated how attractive this job is. And I understand all the nuances to it. And I understand the cap situation.

And they got to move on some older players. The one thing I go back to is the hardest thing to find in this league is a Justin Herbert. And things can happen really fast. If you have a guy like that, turnarounds can happen really fast. You might have a bad year. But I still think at the end of the day, that kid is going to be the reason the chargers are among or the premier vacancy. this cycle. But we'll see. Maybe Ben Johnson has a couple offers. We'll see. But it's going to be fascinating. But you're just not going to find Justin Herbert on every team. And that's still going to

make the Chargers viable. We'll see if things change. But I'm anxious to see what Spanos has to say today. Yeah, should be fun. I'll add on your last point. Like the cap situation kind of is what it is, right? Like I think if you're a GM candidate, you sort of understand that if you're going into a job, you're going to have, you're going to have mess. You're going to have to take a year and tear it all down and take on a bunch of dead money. And like, you know that year one is just going to be a mess. And then so like I don't think that's that should detract from from how attractive it is for GMs. And then from a coaching standpoint, like, and a GM standpoint. Like you have the hardest thing done.

Yeah. The quarterback's there and signed. You don't have to negotiate the contract. So you don't have to think about the position besides the backup. Like that is like a cheat code when you're an executive in this league. And you have a franchise left tackle on a on a rookie deal as well. So like there's there's pieces here. It should be attractive.

I don't think the cap situation should preclude GM candidates from being interested in the job. All right. Good stuff, man. Thanks. We'll have you back on in January when they hire a GM and a coach, hopefully, so you can get some sleep. Thanks, Zach. Appreciate it. Okay, stop number two. We're going to stay in the same city and have a much different conversation with our stellar Rams beat writer, Jordan Rodriguez. Jordan, how you doing this morning? I'm well, I'm well. Like I was telling you, two and five this week for the Rams, two games in five days. It seems a little cruel for the league to be doing this in weeks 15 and 16. But here we are. And I am upright. So here we go.

You're kind of in that point in the season where you're just like, you're not really sure what day it is. You just know if it's like a practice or a game or a travel and you'll like come up for air in like mid-January. Yeah. Air and caffeine are the only two necessary life ingredients at this juncture. Right. And you're like, like I've spent, gosh, I spent like Christmas in a hotel in some city after a game and I've covered game. You know, it's like it's just kind of the crazy part of the season. All right. I'm going to start with a bad question today and feel free to call me out on this. but I want to ask it. This guy's been to a Super Bowl and lost one.

He's been to a Super Bowl and won one. Is it crazy to wonder if this is up there with Sean McVeigh's best coaching jobs with all the context that goes into it? I don't think that's a bad question. I think that's a great question. And I don't think it's one that he has considered himself at this point because he's in it right now.

But for me, just kind of watching and observing how everything has unfolded, over the last 365 days, but then also evolved from, we talked about it on this show, true rock bottom for, you know, himself as a coach and then also for that roster last year. This is one of the most impressive, all around though, not just Sean, but the entire coaching staff.

It's been one of the most impressive things I think I've seen. And obviously my perspective is a little different because I see the change over time and the incremental things. things every single day. So seeing the attention to detail in that regard and everybody's sort of showing up with this focus and this ability to be present wherever they are in that moment, that's where their growth is really happening. And schematically, he's done something, I think, extraordinary over the last three, I guess, if you're going to split his coaching tenure into, what, seven years? Every two years, he seems to undergo some schematic transformation,

that hits the league where it's supposed to be and sort of tries something new or pivots in a way that is, it meets the moment of where the league is trending or about to trend. And that's really impressive in itself to not only be doing that as a coach, but also be doing that with a roster that for its 90 man and training camp had 44 rookies and seven rookies are currently having significant playing time for this Rams team on offense, defense, and special teams. So it is to me, it's pretty remarkable what he has done. Obviously, a lot of that has been with Matthew Stafford, with Aaron Donald, Cooper Cup, even though he was not able to play through the first part of the year, just having him on the sideline and the meetings and all of those things too. But the development of this entire coaching staff, starting with Sean at the top, of these young players into a playoff contending team that nobody I think wants to. face because they're a good matchup team because of what they've been able to do schematically. The postseason is all about matchups and health. And it's just fascinating to me what he has been able to do from a variety of different bullet points. So I think that's a great question, Zach.

And I think it's one certainly to explore into this last part of the year. It's so fascinating when you look at coaches and how they evolve over the years. And McVasen is, what, seventh year as the Rams coach? Like he's just as old as I am, but it feels like he's one of the more longer tenured coaches. Your story jumped out because of this after yesterday's winner of the commanders. I'm not surprised, McVeigh said, of his team's position after going four in one since the byweek. Now, he's not lying either.

McVeigh has earnestly championed the potential of this team since May, no matter the surprised faces to that response. And you were kind of ahead of this. You were, like early they were this spunky team that was competing probably ahead of their skis a little bit. three-game loss, you know, three-game losing stick mid-season, Steelers, Cowboys, Packers. Those were all losses. They go into the buy.

They came out. They win four or five. And their only loss is by six points to the Ravens who have the best record in the AFC. And I was just talking to Popper about this, about how Brandon Staley had trouble taking the whiteboard to the field, right? How being a head coach is more CEO at times than it is even football than in this scheme. Has McVeigh evolved in that regard? And I wonder if he's almost reinvigorated by how. having the challenge of coaching a completely different iteration of this team than he was even 24 months ago.

Well, actually, I think he's always been that type of teacher who can teach to the depth of the player and to the roster. Because that's hard to do both. Because we know he can do the one thing. We know that. Right. But that's why the Rams actually hired him was not because they heard him recite a bunch of scheme ideas over dinner. It was because he and Marshall Falk were at that dinner together, having a conversation. about football and how it should be applied from a player perspective. It was because they went and sort of plomed the depths of the Washington roster and listened to how he taught concepts, not just how what he said or what he drew up or what the ideas

were, but actually how they would work. And it goes back to, and you know this, Zach, we've talked about this so much, it goes back to arguing plays for call sheets on Kyle Shanahan's call sheet back when he worked for him. And it goes back even further to that than that, I think from when Sean played himself, obviously not at the highest level, but, you know, was thinking about the game from that perspective. He's always been like that. His roster and, and I think his own relentless and at times, I think manic pursuit of perfection of that next shot at the big championship, especially after what happened after that 18th season, it, I think drove him totally.

the higher parts of the roster, toward offensive scheme, toward those types of things. But because everything that happened in 2022 was not just a bucket of cold water, but like wading into the ocean in December, right? And just being, just standing there, you know, as the rain comes down. Am I painting the picture enough? So it's- This is such a symbolic lead for a story. I can already see it.

And it's interesting because it was, was such a shock to the entire, not just system, but the entire ecosystem that I do believe in, and I saw it myself, that he went and did the hard work on understanding how much more he needed to reach other parts of the roster that he, that's how he started. That's how he started out his career. And so coaching from the ground up, coaching from that level, it's funny because a lot of these especially younger coaches, the why guys, I always call them, is like, because they have to know why and they have to be able to explain why. Their rosters always sort of like resemble where they're at in their coaching lives.

Like, you know, it's and so with Sean, it's almost by, it's a two-folded thing. It's almost by nature of having a young roster, you are forced to return to your roots as a coach. But he also agreed to build the roster that way. So there's a subconscious and a conscious effort of you have to rebuild it. And you have to coach different. Yeah, you have to coach. You have to walk into the building different every day. And I bet it's easy to preach patience, but it's hard to live that in this league.

For him, I think he had to coach more like himself than he had become. And because I think he had gotten away from who he actually is as a coach. And he's talked openly about that as well. So I think you're seeing the real or more true version of who he is as a coach, but also that person who now has handled some personal professional adversity in ways that he thought he was passed already. like, oh, you lose on a public stage to Bill Belichick, like, oh, that must be rock bottom, right? Nope, jokes on you.

It is not. 2022 has yet to arrive. And so this is an interesting place because he also went out and hired a bunch of assistant coaches and empowered them to coach in that way as well. A lot of the coaches he hired have that exact same teaching mentality. We already knew that Rahim Morris had that. And by the way, doing that with the defense that. They openly made the defense the sacrificial lamb for this roster this year in order to make the economics work.

You talked about that a month ago. Yeah. And I looked up yesterday and it's 20 to zero. Now they're playing the commanders, but I'm thinking, Rahim Morris. I mean, the Colts really liked him when they brought him for a head coach and interview last January. It's just a guy you don't hear talked about a lot. But they're just getting as much out of this roster, maybe as any team in the league? Well, they are the lowest cost.

I think if not the lowest, one of the, you know, top three lowest cost defenses. player over player in the league. You know the top defense was in terms of paid. The Chargers, yeah. Chargers. And so it's interesting to look at the juxtaposition there because the Rams, I think, are maxing out. There is a dearth of talent on the defensive side. And there, it's not to say that things have been perfect. It certainly is not that. There's these big breaks and lapses and things like that. But at the same time, maximizing the talent there, now, especially post by, maximizing the talent on the offensive side, the scheme matching sort of the vision and the theory that he had put into place right from the jump, but nobody really noticed it because it was not winning football

games. And now that it is, more people are catching on. And then, you know, also those coaches, the assistant coaches, I think of the Mike LaFleurs. I think of Nick Cayley, the tight ends coach, Ryan Wendell, the new offensive line coach, who is very much under the radar, but I think needs more attention this year for what he's done with that group. And other coaches on the defensive side under Rahim Morris, the, you know, the Aubrey Pleasance of the world, you know, rearranging some of these things and really empowering their guys to coach the way that they coach. Eric Henderson, trusting him with like the youngest D-line or the most inexperienced D-line outside of Aaron Donald that they've ever had.

I mean, it's that the effort that they've put into it, it was very intentional. It was very focused on reaching the complete roster in terms of that teaching and developing. And I think that that has made the biggest difference. I think it's why you're seeing dividends here in the second part of the year. You talk to GMs around the league sometimes, and you ask about players and why they don't live up to their potential. And they're like tiptoeing around the fact that, like, they still need to be coached and taught at this level. And it just gets forgotten in the football media world that, like, good coaching really matters at the position level. And it's fun to hear stories about how that impacts guys and how that changes guys.

Let's talk about the quarterback for a minute because I imagine you've gotten no Matthew Stafford. to some degree over the last couple years. He shows up, he wins a Super Bowl his first year with a veteran-laden team. And now they're pushing for a playoff spot. They're currently in the seven spot with a completely different roster. He's got Cooper Cup. He's got Aaron Donald, but it's a completely different-looking team. Where's he at in terms of, I wonder if this is something he's really enjoyed having to pick up these young receivers?

And he's got a stud rookie receiver. But that has to be such a fascinating window into his career. Matthew Stafford's however many years in having to do it with the completely younger team that, I mean, these guys are a generation younger in some cases. I know. And it's been fun to watch, though, because there's just, they all, everybody, like, likes each other in that building. And it's, you know what that definable quality is, right?

Zach, it's hard to explain it to people who aren't in locker rooms. But you know what that feeling is where the air does not feel heavy in there. fake it. Yeah. You can't fake it and you can't explain it either. Yeah. And the air just, it feels light. There's a lightness in there, a shared studying, I think, that's really important. Matthew, you know, for all the chatter about, you know, how much older he is than some of his teammates at the beginning of the year, you know, Matthew spent a lot of time with those guys, particularly the receivers, to try to communicate and build, like, kind of like how Sean was doing, and build layer by layer the expectation

and the standards of what was needed. And I think I mentioned this. I was on with our colleague Matt Schneidman on his radio show a few weeks ago for the Rams and the Packers played. And this was right before the Packers sort of hit that a little bit of a turning point in terms of really seeing what Jordan Love

can really do and what a great quarterback he can be. And we were talking about how a lot of times if you have a really young receiver, they do need to be told what to do. do by the quarterback. It doesn't matter how talented they are, the timing of an offensive scheme like this, and the rhythm and the down to the cut splits and the inches of separation and where to turn your head at what time. And this thing that Matthew Stafford has worked with Pucco Nakua on late hands to sort of help him sell his little head and shoulder fakes that he does.

Yeah, the little stuff. Those types of things, you do need either a veteran receiver teaching a young quarterback those things or if you have a veteran quarterback, that true teaching of a young receiving core, those things. And I think that that really buying into that and leaning into that on both sides, Puka Nakua doing that as well as Matthew Stafford, I think really helped. And you see that also with Kairn Williams. You know, Ron Gold is someone who I should have mentioned, by the way, in terms of that really teaching mindset. He's their new running backs coach and long time collegiate coach and really has leaned in and with the teaching element of that. And Kiron, has leaned in with Matthew Stafford, with Cooper Cup, with the linemen, understanding how everything

flows and fits together and how everything sets up everything else. I think there's a big picture understanding of what everything is supposed to look like and a very interesting to watch attention to detail, not just from Matthew Stafford as per usual, but also that is leaked into a lot of the offensive players that he is with. And I have to think that that's a little bit of the transitive property of equality, like him being open to sharing and giving that information and also coaching where coaching is needed has also, I think, leaked into some of what we're seeing from these younger players. And also, Matthew Stafford, I've covered him for a few years now. Dude's a badass. That's all I could say. He's playing so well. He's a badass. Like, he's not getting a lot of

talk, but like, I was going to ask, like, it feels like he's playing as well as he did his first year there. And I know there's a lot of things that go into that, but like, he's tough. He's He makes highlight throws every week. He's like the best kept secret in the league right now. At the beginning of the year, his simple stats, by the way, not his advanced stats, but his simple stats did not reflect the tape. And I would do these hits or, you know, get asked these questions. And it would be like, well, what's going on? Why does he have six interceptions and only seven touchdowns?

Watch the games. And I would just go, watch the tape. Watch the tape. Yeah, because you'll see him do this incredible stuff with the ball. Now everything is clicking together. and you can, you know, things are happening to where you can actually see theory meet execution, because really what you saw mostly was theory at the beginning of the year in the run and the past game. But now you're seeing theory and execution like kind of rise at the same level.

And it's fascinating because he is, I mean, he's playing like a top quarterback in this league and doing it with kind of this flare that we actually didn't see until the end of 2021. When he was, you know, soul snatching Stafford with the dagger for the low. of the gameplay while getting, you know, hit by an Adamican Sioux in Tampa Bay and hitting Cooper Cup downfield and then like spiking the ball and shrieking at the top of his lungs. Like he had been, you know, some demon had taken over. Like he'd been waiting to do that for 15 years in that moment, in January, right? Yeah. And but now we're seeing that guy emerge a couple times a game. We're seeing, you know,

the flare, I urge people to go back and watch from this game. There was a sidearm to Tyler Higbee that was insane. And then there's also this fake that he executed on. and end-arounded to Marcus Robinson, that was a huge gain for the Rams. And it was the coolest, most casual, like, thing. Oh, my, I mean, it was just, it was a, I'm that guy. I'm that M-Fing guy play. That was what that fake was. And he still is.

I mean, you put him up there in terms of arm talent. Maybe a notch below Rogers, maybe equal. He'll downplay it, but if they go to Detroit in the playoffs, would that, would that be weird for him? Like, they haven't seen the Lions since that. trade, I don't believe. And, like, that would be a huge moment in Detroit stand alone because they haven't hosted a playoff game since the early 90s.

But to have him be the opponent, boy, you're going to have some storylines that week, if that happens. Yeah. And also, to be clear, that would be weird for everyone, including the head coach and the other quarterback on the other side. Yep. Yep. There's a lot to get to.

Super weird all around, I think. And I think the emotion, I think he would be, I think that would hold some, you know, he has always spoken so highly as much. I think he's handled it really well. Yeah, and as much as he's accomplished in Los Angeles in such a short time, man, he always speaks so highly and with so much praise of his time in Detroit. You know, when the football games are on in the locker room on the big TVs, you know, he's always kind of like out of the corner of his eye. He's watching. He's tracking.

He's keeping track of what's going on. You give yourself there 12, 13 years, everything you have. It becomes a part of you wherever you are. Yeah, and so there would be some emotion there. I almost don't want to think that far ahead because then I start thinking, oh my God, what a story that would be. And then you get your hopes up that you get to write that, yeah. So. I hope it for you. But yeah, we've got a ways to go. Like McVeigh pointed out yesterday, we'll get you out here. On this, they have the Saints, like you said, on Thursday night at home. Then they're at the Giants. I don't want to say winnable games because it feels like this year, every week is a winnable game for every team except for maybe like when you play the Niners. But then they finish against San Francisco. Now, San Francisco might have the number one seat in the NFC locked up, but they're going to have to fight their way into the playoffs.

What would that mean to McVe? What would it mean to the organization to make it in a year where outside of the building nobody had the Rams in the playoffs when the season started? Yeah, I think it would mean a lot, you know, five years from now when they look at the win-loss record and they look at the sheet. But actually, you know, last week in Baltimore, I think that they, they found the thing that they will always remember about this season. You know, they went toe to toe with the best, one of the best teams, top two team in football.

And they did it with identity and they did it with flare and they did it with physicality and this like sort of brand of guttiness and toughness that actually we had seen sort of start dwindling from Sean McVe-led team that had sort of opted more for the flare. and the finesse and those types of things. So doing it in that way with all of it, all of the bits and pieces of everybody's personality blended and mixed in there and really expressing itself and manifesting

in a way that you could really see how much of themselves, every single person on that field put into it for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks. And in the laughter at the beginning of the season and in the rain on that Sunday, you could just really see what went into a moment, like that. And so I think that they'll, of course, any professional will want to make the playoffs.

Of course, I'm not, you know, underselling that at all. But the thing that they were seeking inside themselves, I think they found last week in Baltimore. That's the fun part of the job is the unexpected. And again, they lost on that walk off punt returned. It's probably a little bit of a freak play in Baltimore. But then they came back and, you know, the score didn't indicate how much of really it was a blowout yesterday against the commander. So seven and seven, three to go. And I urge anyone out there listening, if you're not watching Stafford play right now, flip it on. Watch the tape. He is showing off. Watch the tape. Thanks, Jordan, for hopping on, and we'll catch up with you maybe in January if we have a playoff game to cover. Thanks, Zach. Always a pleasure.

All right. Third and final stop, Las Vegas, Nevada, with Tashon Reed, our Raiders beat rider. Tashon, a rare weekend off in December for the NFL. And when you win 63 to 21 or whatever it was on Thursday night. You deserve a weekend off. Let's just jump in. We haven't talked since the coaching change happened a little bit over a month ago. You're there every day. You're very plugged in with the organization and ownership. I'm just curious from a big picture of you how the Raiders look and feel and sound differently with Antonio Pierce running the show as opposed to Josh McDaniels. There's just a different level of energy and that's something that you can both feel when you're in the locker room throughout the week after games. But also you can just see it

on the field. Like the guys, their level of effort has been constant, win or lose, really no matter what opponent that they're going against. And that's something that we didn't always see, you know, under the previous regime. And Antonio Pierce, he's really led into this player-ran model that he's driven and, you know, emphasizing whether it comes down to scheme and allowing them more input or, you know, small things like putting a basketball rim, you know, in a locker room or changing the schedule and practice times. And they had a situation earlier, before the Dolphins game that they lost, that they were originally scheduled to go to Orlando for practices,

and instead they stayed here because the players prefer to stay in their home base, and they just practice earlier to make up for the time zone change. So things like that, it sounds small, but when you're consistent with it, really regardless of what the result is, you know, win or lose, I think players see it as genuine and they buy into it a little bit easier. You know, obviously he still has to, you know, lay the wood a little bit and be disciplined when it calls.

calls for it. I think we saw that with Marcus Peters. He got benched in a game and didn't react to it too well and the next day he was cut or even on a more serious note, Roger Teme or a safety who the night before a game, he got arrested for DUI and then he was shortly cut after. And so it hasn't been all, you know, rainbows and sunshine with Antonio Pierce, but he's consistent. And I think that's something that players are really taken to. It's not uncommon when a coach gets fired that the players don't love. And I think that's pretty well understood that they didn't love Josh McDaniels, that you see an uptick in play, right?

They win a game or whatever, and then it kind of fades after a couple weeks. But it sounds like it's not fading. Like it's persistent, like a month, six weeks in. Like they still very much are enjoying playing for this guy, which probably helps his candidacy for the head job. But where do you come down on that? I think it's definitely still a work in progress in terms of him winning a job. I don't think anything's been decided.

I think Mark Davis, like, ideally, he would like to not have to go through a, you know, full-scale change and start over at both, not just head coach, but also GM, with interim GM Champ Kelly stepping in right now. I think he wants to keep both of these guys, but, you know, he's not just going to do it off of emotion or what the player is won. He has to also see the results translate on the field. And, you know, they have what they view is three winnable games, you know, going into these final three weeks, I guess the Chiefs Colts and in Broncos back at home. And so, you know, their playoff chance, are small at this point. Like even if they went out, they might not make it. But, you know, if they're able to finish, I don't know, three and oh or two and one down this stretch and really end the season on a high note, you know, I think that would help Pierce's chances. But I don't think Mark Davis is going to corner himself in on this one. You know, he's been very adamant that he's going to stay open in this process

and conduct the true search, both at GM and head coach. In terms of how it's going to play out once we get to the offseason, it does seem like he's leaning towards hiring a GM first and making a decision there. and then moving forward, conducting sort of the head coaching search as something separate, which is something that we haven't seen from him in a couple of years. Obviously, last time McDaniels and Ziegler were hired as a tandem, the time before that, you know, Gruden sort of inherited a GM and then got to pick his own GM. The way it will work now, I'm pretty sure is that the GM is going to get hired,

and then they, along with Davis, will pick whoever the next head coach would be. Now, that makes the head coaching search last a little bit longer, and you might miss out on some candidates, but I'm sure they have thought about that, at least I hope they have. Now, you got to chat with Mark Davis recently, and I'm curious, beyond what you wrote, what do you think he's learned from these big swings he's taken? Maybe McDaniels is a big swing or not. I don't know, we can debate that all day. Gruden certainly was with the contract and the name and that the fact that he hadn't been a coach for a long time. He's gone for the big name and it's busted in his face the last two times.

Do you think he's learned from those misses and do you think his approach will be different this time? Yeah, I think, you know, what I've gleaned most from our conversation was there was a level of accountability for those mistakes. You know, really, you could have on his part. Yes, like self-accountability, you know, self-blame. Yeah, he made that joke, right? Like, I'm getting pretty good at it, right? Like, I was like, whoa, like, at least you know. It's very sarcastic.

Gave me a little smile in a week. Okay. I couldn't help but laugh at that, at that notion. But, yeah, I think he knows that he's messed up. You know, I mean, that's the only way that you end up with this many head coaches and GMs. He hasn't been the owner for that long. It's been a little bit over a decade, and he cycled through these guys, you know, like pretty much no other owner in the league during that span.

And that shows that you aren't doing a good job of picking him. You know, there's really no other way around it. The buck stocks with him, and that's what he's, he's embraced. Obviously, that doesn't mean that he's going to suddenly get good at it, you know, moving forward. But I think something else that stood out was, you know, this Raiders franchise was known for a long time of being run by Al Davis. And he was a football mine that was very intimately involved in the, the day-to-day of the franchise. And that's not Mark Davis. You know, he hires people and he's,

and he's hands off with it. And I think that comes from, you know, an awareness on his part that he's not his father. He's not L. Davis. He doesn't have that football knowledge and talent evaluation and, you know, able to steer, you know, whether it's the GM or the head coach in the right direction. And so, you know, he sort of hinted at maybe needing to hire somebody in a president of football operations role. I think he believes that there needs to be a third person and beyond just a head coach and the GM that's sort of above the day-to-day operations to keep everybody in check and, you know, provide that that missing piece that hasn't been there for the franchise since Al Davis passed away. And so it was pretty candid on his part and in a position that I think a lot of owners probably wouldn't admit on the record even if they believed it. And, you know, I think that's something that, you know, again, while it doesn't guarantee results, like if he does maintain that true openness and willingness to understand that he doesn't know everything going into this process, and I think that gives the Raiders a good chance to,

finally figured his thing up. Yeah, I mean, you can have all the money in the world, and this league will humble you because success is just such a hard thing to attain, especially sustainable success. I want to get your perspective, your opinion on this, because they've gone offense the last two times. They went offense with Gruden and offense with McDaniels, and they're kind of a weird roster right now.

I wonder, what do you think this team needs in terms of a new head coach, whether that's offense or defense background, but also, like, I was just talking to Daniel Popperer, like a disciplinarian. Like what kind of new voice do you think they need from someone who's there every day and listening to this team and what the players are at right now? In terms of the type of team culture that they need to instill, I think it's really the one that they have now, you know, one that really involves the play.

Right. Especially coming off of, you know, McDaniels and what went wrong, you know, in that situation. And I think, you know, we can obviously, Gruden, you know, a lot of his issues were personnel decisions and draft bus and free agency bus and he obviously had his situation with the emails. But from being a player's coach type of standpoint, the guys love John Gruden and love playing for him. And the team, Mark Davis believes, and I think that was part of why he didn't retain Riz Bessachi is that what that team did that year in 2021 making the playoffs, he thinks they would have done that under Gruden as well. And so when they've had their most recent success,

it was under that type of head coach. Now, you know, obviously Antonio Pierce isn't the only type, you know, only guy in the world that can instill that type of culture. But it does, you know, give him, you know, a good chance if they're able to finish strong here down the stretch to this season with that sort of model, um, to be retained as the head coach. I think even if he stays in place, though, they need a pretty wide reset on offense. Yeah. This, this system that they've run, even after McDaniels got fired is pretty much still McDaniels system. And it's something that from talking, you know, people around the locker room and throughout the organization, it's not something that people believe is sustainable moving forward and puts them in the best positions to

succeed. I think they need a new mind. So even if it isn't, you know, a head coach that's the offensive play caller. They need a new offensive coordinator. And I also think they need a new quarterback. I know Aiden O'Connell was coming off of his best game of the season. But it was a little, you know, I mean, they had a couple, you know, fumbles deep in their own territory. Those kind of games you kind of got to throw out. Yeah, yeah. I think when you look at the macro with him this season, he looks like a guy that's a developmental backup who can step in as a spot starter, which that's what he was drafted to be. He was never intended to be the full-time starter. That was going to be Jimmy Garoppolo, and I think going into this offseason, you know,

moving on from Garoppolo feels like a formality. You can keep O'Connell around. Like, obviously, we see with all the quarterbacks that have gotten hurt league-wide, like the value of having a type of backup that the O'Connell has shown that he could be. But I do think they need to heavily pursue most likely through the draft, their quarterback of the future, bringing a play caller on offense and really reset things on that side of the ball just because they've been so underwhelming. I mean, for a team that has Devonte Adams, Josh Jacobs, Jacoby Myers, Hunter Renfro, young guys like Trey Tucker and Michael Mayer, like they just haven't been anywhere close to good enough this season. They've been one of the worst offenses

in the league. And that's a sign that they need a lot of change on that side of the ball. And you've got to think it's a fairly attractive job, right? I mean, it's obviously a big brand, but also, like you said, all that offensive personnel, you don't think O'Connell is auditioning for the starting job with these last three. games. You think, and you wrote this, they should remain aggressive when it comes to adding the quarterback, and you think that comes through the draft, not free agency. Because like we talked about last time, they're kind of spinning their wheels every couple years, finding like a C plus, B-minus type guy like Garapolo, and then Garapola doesn't even last the entire season. I think O'Connell,

I won't say that he has no chance. I think if he goes out there in the final three games and he balls out. I think he'll be given the chance to compete for the starting job next season, even if they do draft a guy. I mean, we've seen that with teams in recent years. where they have a highly drafted quarterback and they still, maybe they don't start out to begin their rookie season. So I wouldn't say that O'Connell is just dead in the water. But I don't think that you've seen enough from him

or that you're going to see enough in the final three games to really commit to him being your guy moving forward, especially with likely a new regime coming in in some form, whether it's retaining Antonio Pierce and Champ Kelly or going and getting some mix of somebody else. It's just I don't think you've seen enough from O'Connell to really bet on him being a guy moving forward And when it comes to how they would add a quarterback, I think it would be tougher than

to add a veteran just because of the costs moving on from Garoppel. Exactly. They cut them out right. I believe it's a $28 million dead, dead cap hit in 2024. If they give them like a post-June 1, I think it's like $15 million and then maybe like $10 million in 2025, they still have some cap space where maybe you could move around that and get like a mid-tier expensive guy. But like this is also a roster that's just not complete yet.

I mean, they need help on the offensive line defensively, even though the defensively has been good this year. There's still some areas where they're going to need some extra help. And so going out and paying another, you know, expensive veteran quarterback just doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense for them, especially where this team is, you know, while they've, you know, kept themselves competitive and in the playoff hunt, I think we know that this team is a long way away from competing. And so drafting a rookie quarterback, having that Ricky Stale and building around them with the extra money that you have just seems like the best path moving forward. I agree with that. Because like if you keep just doing this roundabout where it's just you're,

I mean, you're overpaying for guys like Groplo. That's just the market these days. And like you said, it doesn't really get you anywhere with those shortcuts. You got to go find someone in the draft. And the lucky thing for the Raiders this year is there's a ton of great quarterbacks coming out. You don't necessarily need to have a top three pick to get one. But we'll see what they do. It will be a fascinating finish for them.

They go to Kansas City, which isn't the test that's always been. They go to Indy. That's winnable, but the Colts are playing pretty well and winning a lot of close ones. And then they finish with the Broncos. Do you think Pierce can, last thing I'll let you guys? go, but do you think Pierce can do anything one way to keep this job? Or is it more like, let's go through a full process come January and Mark Davis is open to all the ideas in front of him? I will say this. If they run the table, even if they don't make the playoffs, I think he gets the job.

I think it'd be hard. That would be four in a row to finish. Yeah, that says a lot. Yeah, because, I mean, you know, he took over. I mean, he won the first two games. It's the Giants with Daniel Jones going down. It's the Jets who have been. And their offense has been miserable all season. And then, you know, you lose three in a row. A lot of times, you know, after you get over that initial wave, like you said, that coaching change, we didn't like the old guy, like, there was a rush. Like, we're playing well now. Like, usually when you win three and lose three in a row, it's like, all right, it's over. And like, this team is finished for the rest of the season.

Right. They were able to recover from that and win four in a row to end the season. Like, that shows that you can bounce back not just from the adversity of having a coaching change, but also having the adversity of going through a lose. And we kind of saw something similar happen with Rich Bissaccia. I mean, they had that kind of initial surge. They started losing after that and then they won a bunch of games at the end. And they made the playoffs that year. And like that could be the difference obviously if they fall short this year.

We'll see. You know, I mean, those teams that they would have to beat are all teams that are in the AFC playoff. I mean, the chiefs, the Colts, and the Broncos. And so who knows what could happen, you know, but I think if they run the table, I think that it would be hard to see them not giving it to Pierce at that. I wonder if he regrets not giving it to Bessachi. Yeah. I will say Mark Davis, he isn't a man of regret. I think if you gave him truth serum and

took him back in time, would he rather, would he do that instead of hiring McDaniels? Yeah. Probably been a lot cheaper too, but yeah. Right, right. He wouldn't have lost as much money. Like even if Basaccia, because I will say that in 2021 season, I mean, it was like nine, one score wins. They like had like six wah-haul finishes. Hard to replicate that. It's like the giant last year. Yeah. involved in there, you know what I mean? And so maybe the next season the wheels fall off and they suck. But then at that point, if you move on, it wouldn't be nearly as expensive as it was,

you know, for them to do so under this last regime. And so, yeah, I think if you took them back in time and gave them some truth serum, you probably would have kept the last year in term. And so I think if this one, you know, closes out the season, undefeated and they finished nine and eight, no matter what, if they make the playoffs or not, I think he'll be retained. Good stuff, Deshaun. Thanks for hopping on on a busy Monday. We appreciate it.

and we will be following what the Raiders do over the next couple of weeks because a lot of these job openings that are going to happen in January, there's a lot of context in terms of how attractive they really are. And the Raiders might have a quarterback, might not, but that's going to be fascinating. It's going to see what Mark Davis eventually decides to do, because like he said to you, he screwed it up the last two times. So now he gets a third chance. Thanks for hopping on, Tashon.

Appreciate you having me, man. All right, that's a wrap on week 15 of Keefer in the Beats. I want to thank Jordan Rodriguez in L.A., Daniel Popper, also in L.A. and Tishon Reed in Las Vegas for spending some time with us and offering tons of great insight, opinion, and analysis on the teams they cover. They all do such a fantastic job for us. I would encourage you to read their latest work on the teams they cover. It's really, really good stuff.

I learn a lot every time I read all of our beat riders. Full slate of shows this week, obviously with the Week 16 preview, probably hitting heavily on the 49ers and the Ravens coming up at Levi Stadium this weekend. No show next week. It will be Christmas Day. I will be busy putting together toys for my two little ones, probably all day. But we will be back with you guys following that, following week 17, when we have a little bit more clear picture of what the playoffs are going to look like.

Thanks for listening, and we'll catch up with you guys in a couple weeks. This was the Athletic Football Show.