The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Keefer and the Beats: Frank Reich is out, the Eagles are very in, the Chargers remain flawed, and the Colts are surprise playoff contenders

Episode Date: November 28, 2023

On the Week 12 edition of Keefer and the Beats, Zak Keefer discusses the Frank Reich firing in Carolina with Joe Person, the Eagles' dramatic win over the Bills with Brooks Kubena, the Chargers' inherent flaws with Daniel Popper, and if the Colts' playoff-contention status with James Boyd. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome back to the Athletic Football Show. This is Zach Kiefer here to dig into a very, very eventful week 12 around the NFL. A couple days removed from Thanksgiving and we've already seen a second head coach fired. First, it was Josh McDaniels in Las Vegas a couple weeks ago. Now, Frank Reich out in Carolina, just 11 games into his tenure. That organization will now be looking for its sixth different head coach. including interims since 2019.

My opinion, there is a whole lot more wrong with that organization than just the head coach. We will dig into all of that with our reporter down in Charlotte, Joe Person, who's super plugged in around that building and some really interesting names about possible coaching candidates that David Tepper might pursue in the coming months from Joe. You're going to want to listen to that one. As for the rest of the NFL, the Eagles won another one with the second half comeback Sunday, climbing back from 10 down in the fourth quarter to beat the bills and overtime. For Buffalo, at 6 and 6, it feels like this season could be slipping away.

Now, they're not out of it yet, but they got a lot of work to do to climb back into that AFC playoff picture. And what can you say about Philly? Jalen Hertz has admitted in recent weeks, this team still hasn't played its best football yet, but they're 10 and 1, and they're off to the best start for a Super Bowl runner-up since the 1991 bills. They just beat the Chiefs and the Bills within six days, and they've got the 49ers on tap for this weekend. We'll visit with our new Eagles beat rider Brooks Cabina for his insight onto why this team keeps winning the close ones. Next up, a really, really interesting conversation on the years-long and maybe even decades-long issues hampering the Chargers. Why do they always feel like the same team every single year?

at four and seven they've lost three in a row and coach Brandon Staley is under fire GM Tom Telesco maybe a little bit too Daniel Popper our Chargers beatwriter had a lot to say on this and the nuances and some of the context behind that franchise and these problems that have been persisting for years

you're not going to want to miss this conversation finally we'll chat with James Boyd after an eventful week in Indianapolis that saw the Colts release one of the faces of their defense and Shaquille Leonard whether the storm regarding Jim Mersey's controversial comments on HBO and then go out and win a football game. Their third win in a row,

which keeps them in the playoffs as of right now in the AFC. And they've got a friendly schedule the rest of the way. Is it possible that Indy, without Anthony Richardson, makes the playoffs? Really good conversation with James on where the Colts are at after a really busy week in Indianapolis. So four conversations today, instead of our usual three, all were excellent. Week 12, Keeferin the Beats, let's go. All right, from Charlotte, North Carolina, busy man today.

Thank you to Joe Persson for hopping on a couple hours, maybe not even an hour. After Frank Reich was fired 11 games into his Panthers tenure, Joe, you've been all over this story for the last couple of weeks, basically writing that his days feel numbered. I'll start here. Why didn't David Tepper wait until the end of the season? Why could he wait no longer to make this move? Well, it starts with, obviously was not impressed with the direction of the offense, particularly Bryce Young's development. Certainly they could have waited another six, seven weeks. This season's almost over.

But I think he just saw enough. This is not a patient owner. This is a very hands-on owner. I reported last night as I was standing outside waiting to go into the Panthers locker room. Out comes David Tapper, shakes his head, drops very audibly an F-bomb. And I started alerting our powers to be that let's get ready. Sometimes when you see that as a reporter, you just know. You know, you've been there, man.

And it was, I mean, it was a lot of things building up. And the point I tried to make in this column this morning I did, which I'd kind of pre-rerefer. was that there are a lot of deeper issues here for the Panthers than Frank Wright. Did Frank do a great job? I mean, I think he would probably tell you no, but he also didn't have a lot to work with offensively. They give up their best receiver and DJ more in order to get Bryce Young. They patched together a receiving core that scares no one.

No defensive coordinator stays up worrying about these receivers. and then the offensive line, that Scott Fitter has put together, has not been as good as they thought. And on top all that, you have a meddling owner, and it was all of those things. And I think, as I say,

I think Frank, and I know you've got more questions asked, but this merging of Frank's system with Thomas Brown's Rams concepts, I think that was pretty, looking back now, I think that was ill-conceased, and it just sort of left kind of a mishmash of a system, Zach.

Yeah, and if you talked about this before, like, they brought in this, quote, unquote, all-star cast of coaches, right? Thomas Brown and Jim Caldwell and Josh McCown and Frank Reich and Ishiro Everow to run the defense. But on offense, you just kind of assume it's all going to work out because they have these great offensive minds. Clearly, it didn't. They're 30th or 31st in a lot of different categories. From someone who's there every day, we know. about Frank, handing the play-calling duties over to Thomas Brown, then yanking them back three weeks later, or whatever it was, what tangibly told you his days were numbered? What did you see

and what did you hear around the building, around the city that told you this guy might not even make it one year? Yeah, well, a couple things. First of all, that decision to just reverse course so quickly on play calling. I mean, I don't think he should ever give it enough. up to begin with. They had actually, even though they weren't wins, they had actually looked good offensively in a couple, two or three games in a row against the dolphins, the lions, and the Vikings. And, you know, I mean, scoring, I think it was the Vikings games, Zach. They scored three offensive touchdowns.

I mean, they didn't sniff multiple offensive touchdowns the last month and a half. but they weren't winged so he gives it up and then when he reclaimed it it was just felt smelled like desperation that he knew his job was on the line and he just could not get it turned around i mean they just that you know they have for a myriad of reasons that we just talked about but then the other thing too he started to me and i know you know frank well he just started to look beaten. I mean, I,

you just, there is a picture of him from his press conference when he was hired in January. And he had salt and pepper hair. Yeah. But you look at him now, and it's like those before and after shots of presidents that age.

I saw that face a year ago at this time in New England after they got their brains beat out. And you just, You can tell the tone, the words, the body language, he knew it was coming. And I just didn't see it coming this soon in Carolina. But here they are. The second shortest NFL coaching stint in NFL history. That is staggering for all the hoopla and optimism around this hire last January.

This is an important question about this franchise because the next head coach they will hire will be the sixth one, including the interim, since 2019. That's crazy dysfunction. That's not even close to any sort of consistency. Who's going to want this job, right? So you wrote this morning that Ben Johnson, the Lions OC, was their top choice as they went through this cycle last year. He removed himself from consideration, likely going to be in consideration again. But that doesn't mean he's going to take it.

Who would want this job knowing the meddling owner has a very short fuse and doesn't have the patient sometimes required for a roster that's just not any good. So it's a great question. And you'd have to think any up-and-comer like Ben Johnson, who's right on the cusp of it. And we'll have options. I think he's going to have the Chargers option. So you want to come work for David Tapper? And I know the Spanos family doesn't pay, or at least that's their history.

Right. Pepper will pay, but then you've got to deal with them. man, David Tapper is also a big game hunter. He talked to Harbaal last year. He talked to Sean Peyton. I don't think there's any doubt he's going to call Bill Belichick and see what Bill, and make Bill tell him no. I think Bill will tell him no.

That feels like a terrible marriage telling Belichick what to do. So to your question. So then I start, then I think you start looking at guys who are, up-in-comers, but not on the cusp, like a Bobby Sloick in Houston, maybe a Brian Johnson in Philadelphia, or established coaches who, like a Bill O'Brien, who, by the way, has spent two seasons with Bryce Young at Alabama when they were very successful. Bill O'Brien, as you know, has a bad history in terms of the personnel decisions he made in Houston and was blamed by many people for running that organization into the ground. But he's been pretty successful when he's just doing football.

Well, Bill O'Brien is at a point in his career where he really can't be picky. And so I don't know. I mean, I really expect them to do the full court press for Ben Johnson. He's a North Carolina native. I don't think that really matter. I think we all make too much of that. I just think he might look at Justin Herbert versus a Bryce Young who struggled this year, continues to struggle.

And then the David Tepper part of the equation. And I don't know. I think David Tepper's handling of this situation on top of what he's done previously is going to give a lot of folks pause in this industry. Especially for those like Ben Johnson who are going to have. have options, like you mentioned, the chargers have lost three straight. It feels like that's heading in that direction as well. But where does Scott Fitterer fall in line with this? Will he even be in the conversations on who they're going to hire his head coach? Because I'm frankly

not sure what coach would have had success with this team this year. Like you said, the offensive skill positions, like there's no separation whatsoever. Whatsoever with that group, like you said, they traded their best receiver to Chicago, haven't been impressed with Bryce Young, you have to go offense, right? If the number one most important thing with this franchise right now is getting Bryce Young going over the next two to three years, you have to go offense, right? Or does he just open it up and say, I want to get the best coach, period? Yeah, I think it's going to be offense. I mean, I guess if there was a qualified defense of, you know, I don't know, like a Gero Avero, who you mentioned, who's a very impressive guy. It's done

pretty well here with the Panthers defense despite a ton of injuries. But I do think it'll be offense. You know, Frank was the, Frank Reich was the first offensive-minded coach in Panthers history, coach with an offensive background. It is amazing. And you talk to some people around the league and they're like, man, if that staff couldn't do it. Right. And I mean, it's, It is incredible how quickly this all has fallen to pieces. So, yeah, I mean, but fitter is a great. That's the next question. We get David Tepper tomorrow at a press conference.

There are a lot of holes in this roster. I remember talking to a personnel guy with another team a couple weeks ago, and he said, you look at that roster, and it's just bad. It is not top to bottom. You know, with a couple exceptions like a Brian Burns and a Derek Brown, it's nothing to look at. And Scott Fitter, with some help from that rule, who had control of the 53 when he was here, that falls on Scott Fitterer. And David Tapper, for all those moves that you mentioned he has made in a short period of time here,

He has never cleaned it all out at once. And so it would not surprise me at all if this is a complete house cleaning. Interesting days in Charlotte, like you mentioned, this was a good line in your story. It felt at times like Adam Thielen was the first option, the second option, and the third option. Great player in his days with the Vikings, but he is not that player anymore. Interesting day in Charlotte. Frank Reich is out. Thanks so much, Joe, for hopping on on a very, very busy day.

And that press conference with the owner tomorrow is going to be very, very, very good. fascinating. Yeah, get your popcorn, buddy. You get your questions ready. Thanks, Joe. Have a good week. All right. In Philadelphia, where the Eagles are 10 and 1, and our new Eagles beat writer, Brooks Cabina, is joining us for the first time. Welcome to the athletic football show, Brooks. Happy to have you. And boy, did you hop on at the right time? Because the Eagles are damn good this year. Dude, it's insane. They must not like first half football because the first three games. Like you wrote yesterday. They don't care about first halves in Philly.

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. And all three games that I cover. So I show up, first game was Eagles Cowboys. And the other thing is I get into Philly and everybody thinks that since I'm a Texan, I was a Cowboys fan, I'm like, it's from Houston. Do you like the Yankees? They're really far from Dallas, right. Yeah, I came in and listened to like talk radio and people are calling in, you know, talking crap about the Cowboys.

and then they come in and DAC Prescott's on the five, almost goes in, they get a critical sack at the end, the second half comeback. The Chiefs game, they were down by 10 at halftime, came back, won that.

And this one, their largest deficit in the fourth quarter this time against the bills. And I mean, Jalen Hertz, after the game yesterday, he was so conflicted and how he was presenting himself to the media.

It's like, yes, there was this incredible MVP-type moment where he gets the walk-off, touchdown and overtime. But they play dreadful in the first half. So yeah, no, this is, this is, this is a very, very exciting team. It seems like they're used to cardiac arrest. And within three games, I feel like I get a sense of what this team is pretty much quit essentially on a, on a given Sunday. That's what I wanted to ask you about. You cover the Texans for a couple years,

and you land in Philly, and it's a completely different franchise, right? Until you're there every day, you don't really know what a team is like. What have you learned that you didn't know about the Eagles since you got there about a month ago? What I didn't know about the Eagles. You know, going in, I knew that they were an established team, obviously, that had made to this Super Bowl run, came up short last year. Getting to know the people is always the details that you miss. And the surprising thing to me was just how many veterans there are that are certain of

themselves are sitting where they're going. And there are people like, you know, obviously Jason Kelsey's been there for a long time. But, you know, even, you know, you've got other guys like Jordan Milata that have been around for a long time. Defensively, Brandon Graham, who, you know, came up with a, you know, a major sack the other week. And, you know, he's playing well. It's the voices in the locker room where with the Texans that were building that, they were driving. They were drafting guys like C.J. Stroud and Will Anderson who were coming in and starting to feel confident about themselves and where they were going. The Eagles had guys that, you know, I've already done that years and years and years added up to this point, which make sense when you see how this team is battling back in these games.

There's certain of themselves and their abilities. Darius Slay himself too, coming from the Lions to the Eagles. He's been around with them for several seasons now too. That's the kind of team any GM coach wants to build because it's not going to be shaken in certain moments of adversity, even whenever those things are self-inflicted themselves. So I guess that's the thing that I didn't know going in was the quality and the type of people they had and the tenure that they had

and what that did for them really seems to be a central part of their success. Yeah, I think it's like their identity. And that leads right into my next question. It's sort of something you've already answered is from your dealings inside the locker room where you can really get a sense for what a team's about. Like what makes this team tick? Why are they the way they are? Because like you said, four straight halftime deficits. They won all four. They beat the chiefs. They beat the bills. They didn't have a lot of business winning yesterday. Let's be honest, right? The bills led for most of the game. They led by 10 in the fourth quarter. their kicker had to make a 59 yarder just to force overtime. It was a ridiculous kick. And then even in overtime, the bills go up by a field goal. And the Eagles just drive down, convert a third down, and Jalen Hertz punches it in. But like, do you agree with the fact that Jalen's saying they're not playing their best football? And yet they're 10 and 1 and they have the best record in the entire league?

I think what makes this team tick right now is its awareness of itself and its ability to deduce what's happening in real time, especially with the offense, with Jalen Hertz and his relationship with Brian Johnson, and it's something that we're going to get to later. It's his, because these are young coaches with a relatively young quarterback too, who are trying to figure out what best works for them

with what they have. And the first half of the last three games is just seeing how defenses have stopped the run, eliminated certain pass options with A.J. Browns. The chiefs doubled them to start with. They've also had some personnel issues on tight end with Dallas Goddard out. He's their third leading receiver. What do you do?

And how do you adapt? And defensively, they do that as well. There are a lot of young coaches not in terms of events. so much as opportunity to think of a defensive coordinator like Sean Desai who had one year as a defensive coordinator with the Bears and now back in the same role with the Eagles. There are there are signs where you see throughout the game like against the bills last night. Stefan Diggs was going to be a problem and Darius Slay had been pretty much an outside corner all year and they've been such you know there's been such a problem that the slot throughout the year, and they've been such a

and people were exploiting that, namely the Cowboys, and taking Slay and putting him in one-on-one coverage with him at different times in the game and getting them to a route where, okay, now Slay's not in this, they ran a choice route the last time we ran zone with Bradbury to that side of the field, and that led to Bradbury seeing that coming, jumped it, got the interception,

and a critical change at a game. And I know these are a lot of examples, but it's basically these people figuring out what best works for them and that they're making these decisions in real time and not exactly, yes, it is game planning into the week, but they're so good at adapting. And that means you have to be self-aware about what you're capable of doing, but also confident that, yes, you can make this choice

and you can recognize it when that choice needs to be made. So there's a lot of brainpower that comes through with that. and Nick Sariani at the top doesn't make these offensive play calls, but he's in these conversations at halftime, and on the sideline you see him working with Hertz too. That collaboration process happening in real time is really what's quite special about this team. Like you mentioned, Jalen Hertz dreadful yesterday in the first half,

four for 11, 33 yards, and he was conflicted afterward. Like you said, an MVP, moment to finish a game that started in awful fashion. You mentioned Siriani, and I want to get into that a little bit. I cover him a little bit in Indianapolis when he was the O.C. for Frank Reich, and you covered a handful of coaches just in a couple years on the Texans beat, and each coach comes with their own approach, and each one has their own personality. Some show it, some don't. This team is 10-1. It's the best start by a Super Bowl loser since the 91 Bills. They haven't played their best football. I think everybody would agree with that. And yet they're a couple games up on

the Niners and there are a couple games off on the Cowboys. How does this team reflect their head coach from what you've seen from Siriana from afar? And then now that you're up close at the games, at the practices, because this guy can get hot and we saw him run off the field in Kansas City and have something to say to the Chiefs fans, why is what he's doing working? Because he's like something like 33 and 12 since he took over the Eagles. And I don't think, anybody would have said that would be the case after his first press conference there, which honestly was kind of a disaster. It's been interesting to me in covering the NFL because I covered the college football for a while

before joining the Houston Chronicle and the Texans in 2021, managing a team of grown men and figuring out how to work with them, get them to believe in you and what you're doing and all of that. And them and each other- Manage the egos, which can sometimes be the hardest thing because everybody in that locker room has an ego. So fundamentally that requires a sincerity. And I think Nick Siriani definitely has that. He's genuine about himself and doesn't hide his hot-headedness at times,

his emotions and games at times. And he doesn't apologize for them either. after the Chiefs Exchange, he was asked about that during the week, and he said, I'm not going to apologize for who I am. I think whenever a person is from the top down allowing himself to be himself and also not allowing that to breach the standard that he's setting, but at least allows consistency, that tells players that they can be themselves.

So, you know, guys like Jordan Milata, who, is a hilarious human being in terms of how he talks about the game, how it plays out. And he speaks freely. And I feel like a lot of players do too. And they're honest about what happened and where things went. And in the middle of games, they can be honest with each other.

And I think that means a lot whenever a team is, you know, trying to get through games like they have so far. People don't turn on each other. They've already opened up the dialogue so that they can have that during games. They have that relationship ready and they know where people stand. So building, I think the sincerity stems from Siriani. And I think they've adapted that throughout that.

And they already had that themselves as players. But whenever your head coach is doing that, that reinforces it. And I think that's one of the things that helps the Eagles. I think it's twofold. You've got to be authentic. And we hear that a lot in this business, but like if you're not authentic, the veterans on that team would see right through them. They would see right through them and say, you're not, you're not real. You're not about the right stuff.

And that wouldn't work. And we've seen that across the league over the last couple of years, just guys trying to be something they're not. A lot of times they're trying to imitate another coach, Belichick, et cetera. And then secondly, from what you've said, it seems like this team, there's a lot of ownership from the veterans, the Kelsey's, the Lane Johnson's, Jalen Hertz, obviously. And like you said, they're not without conflict. I mean, AJ Brown has his moments on the sideline. Siriani. They all get in their emotions sometimes.

But the fact that they're 10 and 1 speaks to that ownership from those guys. Last question, I'll let you go. So they're living a dangerous game right now. And obviously, they're going to make the playoffs. And they might be the one seat in the NFC. They've got a game with the Niners in a couple weeks that's going to be a lot of fun. This is a dangerous way to live, though, because if you're the Eagles, you're thinking Super Bowl. They don't want to go to the Super Bowl again and lose.

Do you feel like they're going to find that second gear, that third gear, and play better as the season inches into the postseason? Or are these flaws, this slow starts, whatever you want to call them, is there a chance that catches up to them? Because they haven't always made it look that convincing. Last year, they felt like a juggernaut that was going to be in the Super Bowl no matter what. This year it feels very different and they could very much lose a playoff game. Where do you think this goes? So from the bills game, there are key things that should have buried them. You end up in a situation where, one, Jalen Hertz, right going into halftime, has this handoff exchange with Kenneth Gainwell that's fumbled, picked up, and recovered at their own 36, and there's barely a minute left before halftime, and the bills go in and get another score.

That's the kind of mistake that against a team of equality of the chiefs, and there's a lot of the chiefs. if they had done that against them, that would bury them. Those are things that are within their control. Because they can have an inefficient first half. They show that against the chiefs, and they're able to correct things. But it's the turnovers, and Jalen Hertz has now thrown more interceptions than ever in his career in a season. He's got ten of them now. That one was batted against the bills yesterday, but just not being able to find.

open receivers because of the way they were being played and they weren't able to go towards certain tendencies that might have helped them, maybe led into a situation where that pass gets deflected. It's it's it's those things that if they can eliminate if they if they bury themselves with mistakes like that against the 49ers and others in deep playoff runs, they shouldn't expect to win games like that. And that's that's the problem. There are going to going to be some things that work better in their favor later on. If Dallas Goddard comes back, they have more options offensively. Maybe they don't have as many structural issues with the offense to start games.

But those things, wherever they're making those mistakes, those are pretty fundamental to football. Don't lose the turnover margin. Don't get back in games. The bills made some critical mistakes. They missed a field goal. Another one got blocked by Jalen Carter. Those are six points that would have given the bills a win. So those kind of things aren't sustainable, aren't reliable for a full Super Bowl run.

But I know every game it seems like cover, there seems to be another one that just works out in their favor. But those things are luck in some ways. So, yeah, they're testing the limitations of Hertz's heroism. And I think those things more than anything are what could doom them in the end. but they are capable with the talent they have to get started sooner. So we'll see how that ends up working out. Testing the limits of Hertz's heroism. Now, that's a good line.

You've got to save that for one of your stories, one of these days. Is it bad that I already used it? No, you're allowed to steal it from yourself. Say this for the Eagles. They are a gritty group. Like, that is a tough big boy win yesterday at home against a desperate, absolutely must-need situation, must win situation for the Buffalo Bills, and the Eagles found a way to win. And they keep finding ways to win.

10 and 1 right now, and I have to correct myself, they play the Niners this week. That is a tough stretch for the Eagles. They go Kansas City, Buffalo, San Francisco. You know San Francisco is going to be ready for this one after what happened in the NFC championship game last year. Matt Barrow's told us last week on the show that the 49ers felt like they didn't really get a fair shape because of the quarterback situation last year in the NFC title game. That's going to be a really fun one.

Brooks, we will catch up with you down the line, I'm sure, because the Eagles are going nowhere, and they're going to be a fun team to watch in the playoffs. Thanks for hopping on. Yeah, anytime, Zach. All right, next up from Los Angeles, California, covering a struggling Chargers team. Daniel Popper. Daniel, I felt like last time we talked, there was a little bit of optimism about this team. There always is, but let's start here.

Chargers have lost three in a row after last night's 20 to 10 lost to the Ravens. tell me I'm wrong, but I'm starting to think the Chargers are the same freaking team every single year. Lots of off-season optimism, hope, a capable quarterback. There is talent on this roster in that they consistently underachieve. It feels that way, right? Like, is Justin Herbert turning into Philip Rivers? Like, it felt like this was the narrative arc of Philip Rivers' career. like great talent, but always playing in these close games, always getting the ball in one score

game, two minutes left. I don't think you're wrong, but the way I look at it is, you know, the way these narratives sort of develop, it comes from a lot of people who maybe aren't as invested in the team day to day and analyzing the structure of the roster. Yeah, that's fair. I'm not. I'm not saying, you. I'm saying like generally like, oh, this is the same team. Well, like, I think a lot of this was predictable. You know, like with this, why do you say that? I mean, I wrote about it. Like, the schedule came out in May and I predicted this team to go nine and eight. I said I had worries about their secondary depth, particularly, you know, corner with J.C. Jackson coming off this knee, significant knee injury. At safety,

I said I worried about their run blocking at tight end. I didn't see how even with Call and Moore coming over that they were going to be able to produce a significantly good rushing. attack with what they had at tight end. I had concerns about them signing a 31-year-old Eric Kendricks. I mean, this is all in print. You can go find my schedule release breakdown in May. You know, and so, like, as somebody who covers this team, I would hope as closely as anyone and who knows more about this team than I think anyone, you know, outside of that building. A lot of this was predictable in my mind. I did not think the roster was good enough for them to make the moves that they did in the offseason in terms of going all in on the current iteration of the team.

I mean, they offloaded so much money into 2024. They restructured Mike Williams. They restructured Keenan Allen. They restructured Joey Bosa. They restructured Kalil Mack. I mean, Joey Bosa and Kalil Mack have the ninth and tenth highest cap hits for 2024 in the league. Not edge rushers, not non-QBs, in the league. Wow.

And Bosa's coming off. Now what appears to be like a pretty significant footsprits. he missed most of the last season with a groin injury torn groin. I mean, Klua Max having a resurgent season, but it's like, you know, Mike Williams coming off a torn ACL. It's like they really pushed all of the chips in to this season and then didn't make those moves that they needed to make in the like fabric of the roster, like tying all of these star players together to create that necessary depth.

That's the hard part. Yeah. And so you push. all your chips in and then you skimp on those pieces that you needed to really bring the roster together full circle to add an additional depth safety so they're not rolling out Dean Marlowe and Jalen Hawkins when you lose J.T. Woods to a non-football illness. You know, they skimped in terms of adding a corner and they were really relying on J.C. Jackson coming back off a what is like an unprecedented type injury and they ended up trading him because J.C. wasn't, you know,

locked in mentally. I watched the tape because I like to go into the locker room and I like to be able to talk to players about the stuff that they're watching, you know, and like I watched last season, trust me, I'm no like football savant here, but like the run blocking at tight end was a problem. It was a big issue why they couldn't run the ball last season. They added nothing there. They rolled the same guys out there and their third round pick, Tray McKinney that they took in 20-21. They cut. That was supposed to be their run blocker. Now they're rolling out Nick Vinette, Journeyman. They're rolling out Hunter Camp Mortier, who had played in one, NFL regular season game before yesterday.

And so, like, a lot of these issues I saw now, like, you know, you're going on, like, national TV, you're not going to talk about this stuff, but it matters in football. Like, no one's going to go on TV and do a 10-minute segment about run blocking at tight end, but it matters. And when you look at the chargers and they are, you know, the rushing success rate is like 20% since week two, like way below anyone else in the league. And you're like, well, why can't they run the ball? Well, I was telling you in May that they didn't have enough run blocking at tight end.

And when their tight ends are getting blown up on the edge, play after play after play. And you have all these negative plays and two-yard rushes because they can't sink anything up in the run blocking. Like, that matters. Like if you really want to assess what's going on with the team, you have to look at the details of the roster, at the fabric of the roster. And so it felt like they went all in and then didn't make those final moves to really tie it all together. And you're seeing that depth exposed. That's really like what I think is happening. That's why we ask you, the beat writer, who knows.

Let me see if you buy into this theory. I think a lot of people on the outside get seduced by Justin Herbert's arm. But I don't see an offense that's using that because of a lot of the issues you just talked about. But I'm sitting there watching the Ravens game last night. And I'm like, they can't take the top off this defense. I mean, they're throwing to Keenan Allen like 14 or 15 times and he's great. He caught 14 of them. The fumble hurt.

But like, they don't have a guy who can take the top off of the defense with the injury to Mike Williams. And the first round pick at receiver? I mean, is he doing anything? Like, how much of this goes to Telesco? Brandon Staley is getting killed right now and everybody's ready to write him off at the end of the season and that might be what ends up happening. But Tom Salisco built this team, built this roster,

like you said, and seemed to take some shortcuts with maybe some bigger names as opposed to the less heralded essential signings that help an offense run. I just, like, you wrote about Herbert getting slammed in the pocket with so many games on the line, and that's how it ended last night in terms of they couldn't even hold up the protection. But how much does the GM bear in this situation? Because it seems like they've just missed in so many critical areas. Yeah.

So there's a lot of layers here. I think, you know, where I would start is, you know, what constraints are the GM and coach operating under, you know, given the cash budget of the team? That's something that doesn't get talked about a lot. everyone likes to talk about the salary cap, which in theory, you know, should create parity and, you know, create a loving playing field financially. But every team is operating under a different cash budget. That's true. The Colts are the same situation, the team I used to cover. Like they had a limit that could spend each year, and it probably wasn't as much as other teams.

Everyone thinks it's even because of the salary cap. That's a really good point you made. Yeah. And then when you're going after free agents, how much of a signing bonus can you give that play? affects the cab differently, but that money is going straight to the player typically up front. And so all that stuff matters, right? And so I think you need to discuss this within that framework. So we'll start there.

As far as your question, I think it's relatively difficult in this situation to separate the influence of the GM and the influence of the coach in building this roster. because what I do know is that Tom Telesco, as a general manager, really believes in building the roster that the coach wants, finding players they're going to fit into his scheme, taking advice from the coach as far as what he wants, what he likes, what he doesn't like. That is how he operates. And you can see it. You could go back to the Gus Bradley-Anthony-Lin era. You can go to the Brandon's Daly era. So, like, you know, Khalil Mack was a Branden's-Daly guy, coached him in Chicago.

that trade had Brandon Staley's fingerprints all over it. A lot of these defensive personnel moves, you know, you can, you know, spread the blame equally between Telesco and Staley. Like, Staley wanted J.C. Jackson. Like, there's an in-house Chargers documentary that they posted to their team website where J.C. Jackson walks into the building after they signed him, and he was like, we need to have this guy. He was reading from, Staley was reading from his scouting report that he did when he was

doing the film review of J.C. Jackson. We need this guy. You know, so, like, it's not, like, it's not like Tom Telesco is, sitting there banging the drum being like, let's go sign JC Jackson. Like, yeah, did they whiff on it? Absolutely. But the blame falls on both those guys. Offensively, the issue that you're talking about as far as not being able to access the deep part of the field has been an issue.

I would pin that mostly on the type of receivers that Telesco likes. He prefers size. That's pretty evident in terms of the receivers that he's gone after. And so you had a situation where you had sort of three receivers that all had some juice between Quentin Johnston, Zay Flowers, and Jordan Addison. And they, I think, ultimately decided that Quentin Johnston was more of a pro body type. And so it was rather fitting that Zay Flowers, you know, took an end around to the house to end that game because what they wanted Quentin Johnson to be was a yak guy, a guy who could create with the ball on his hands. And lo and

behold, the guy they passed on is the one that's actually doing that at the NFL level. But at the of the day, Telesco's in his 11th season, he has two playoff wins. Like, you look around the league and, like, those people don't exist, guys that have just have not gotten it done that have been the job as long as he's been in. Now, you can start peeling back the layers of this and going back to how I sort of started this answer. How does a guy keep a job for 11 years with only two playoff wins? You know, is it related to how he's able to operate within certain, constraints that exist from a cash budget standpoint. I'll pose that question. I don't necessarily have an answer. But the reality is it falls on everybody. It falls on ownership. It falls on the

GM. It falls on the coach because they've all had a hand in building this roster. But at a certain point, you have to look at the body of work of Tom Telesco and you have to say that has he drafted some good players, yeah. Has he built a roster capable of contending for even the postseason annually, perennially? No, he has not. And it's a results-driven business, and that's just what the situation is. Do you think in any way this team's moves over the last couple of years were a response to the situation they're in, right? So it's the golden ticket when you've got this star quarterback on a rookie deal. He's now entering the second phase of that, which means a lot more money.

He got his contract. But also the division they're in, right, with Mahomes. And everyone thought Russell Wilson and the Broncos were going to be really good. Maybe they're coming. We don't know. but does that feel like a response to the division they're in that they need to make some moves and be a little bit bolder than maybe they have in the past? Or is it just a reality of like you said, all these layered explanations for coach GM ownership personnel, just not a smartly built team? Is it a response to what's going on when you go back and diagnose the beginning? of this. Yeah, I mean, the reality is that NFL teams are always going to be building their teams first and foremost to win the division. That's where you have to start because you're playing six of those games a year. And so any move you make, I think it can either be on the front of your

mind or the back of mine, but somewhere in there, you're thinking about how does this team match up against the team that we're going to have to get to win the division. In this specific instance, though, like we'll go back to last offseason, the 2022 offseason when the Chargers spent more cash on their defense than any team. in the league. You know, I don't think that was them saying, we're doing this to beat the Chiefs. I think there was a facet of that that was sort of involved in it. Was it we're doing this to help Justin Herbert? I think that if you look around the league, like, that's the year that teams are going to sort

go all in from a cash standpoint. The third year of that rookie deal, because the quarterback's not going to get paid until after that season. You know he's going to have, you're going to have him for that season on the rookie contract before you even have to start negotiations, before negotiations before he's even eligible for negotiations right and so that was a move and a strategy that's pretty commonplace in terms of of making that push in year three so i would take the sort of their their moves on defense last off season and pin that more to where they were in the process of building the team with where justin was at versus like any any response um to the chiefs with the caveat that you know building a roster that can can

Pete with the Chiefs is like always the goal because you have to sort of start with your division when your team building. So let's move the conversation to Brandon Staley. Everyone saw the clip that made the rounds last week of him getting a little testy with a reporter about the defensive plate calling, etc. Where do you think he's at right now? It's his defense. You know, up until last night they have lost six in a row by three points or less. Last night felt like it was going to be another one that was three points or less until Flowers took that touchdown in to make it a 10-point game. but he probably should have slid down inside the five.

Anyway, it feels like his seat is getting warmer by the minute. Do you agree with that? And is there anything in there that they can save this season? They're four and seven. It just feels like it's slipping away. Where's the head coach in all of this? I actually think his seat was hotter last week than it was this week. I think he solidified his standing at least for now with the way the defense played against the Ravens on Sunday night,

because it was a really, really good defensive performance. And you can sort of tie in the fact that they made all of these personnel changes on defense. I mean, they brought a bunch of waiver wire pickups into their secondary. Jalen Hawkins at Safety, who they claimed off waivers from the Falcons. You know, E. Sang Bassi was starting, you know, at Slot Corner, a guy they picked up off waivers from the Broncos. You know, Dean Leonard, a seventh round pick in 2022 replaced Michael Davis, who's on a three-year, close to $30 million contract.

And with that group, they were able to stop one of the best offenses in the league. And they really made Lamar Jackson look uncomfortable. And I think a lot of that came from the plan that Brandon Staley concocted where he was like, we're going to take away Lamar as a runner. And they were able to do that. And additionally, that emphasis sort of prevented him from really breaking the game open with his legs in off-script situations. You know, with that being said, that was one game. And if you look at the entire season, the defense has been horrendous.

And ultimately, that falls on Brandon Staley. You know, I think he, you know, if you were to give him truth serum and ask him how he feels about this season, like, I think he's extremely disappointed. I think he's extremely surprised. Yeah, he didn't come into us expecting this kind of. No. No. Like they, you don't make those moves that we were talking about previously in an offseason and push that much money into a future season and expect to be four and seven. Like everyone in the building is surprised the way this has gone. You know, I think in terms of the rest of the season, one thing that I can say is that Brandon Staley, you know, he has two tenants to his coaching philosophy.

You know, a lot of these are buzzwords. But it matters when you're sort of discussing like how a coach is with players in the locker room and in the building. But it's relationships and competition. We can argue about whether he's created the necessary competition. But what he has done is he's developed relationships with all these players. Now, some of it is he's brought in a lot of his guys. Khalil Mack, coached him before. Sebastian Joseph Day coached him before.

Morgan Fox coached him before. You know, Eric Kendricks was a Brandon Staley move. They let Drew Trinckwell walk. You know, Brandon Staley had played against the Vikings a lot when he was with the Bears. He, you know, was very high on Eric Kendricks. And that was, you know, a move spearheaded by him. him. So you could sort of go through the list. I went through it last week. In that Green Bay game, eight of the 11 starters had either been extended, traded for, or signed during Brandon's Daly's time.

So a lot of these guys have an affinity to him because they got paid while he was the coach. Yeah. And that, like, that matters. And so like, you know, and I'm not saying that that's like the only reason that he has his relationships. But like, I don't think it's a scenario where Brandon's Dilley's ever going to lose the locker. Okay. That's important. And that mattership's eyes. It does. Yeah. It's not a Josh McDaniel situation where all the players are disgusted with him and like just want him gone. And like you're going to get like some value out of just changing the coach and getting his voice out of there. I don't think that's going to happen because a lot these players do believe in Brandon Staley.

And there are those relationships there. And so in that sense, like is there hope? Yeah, because they're going to play hard. But the issues are the issues. Right. And like it's not like that stuff's just going to get corrected. Like, I'm not willing to sit here. You're not fixing that in December.

Like, yeah, you had one good game plan against the Ravens with a bunch of waiver wire guys in there. How sustainable is that? Or is this thing going to, you know, regress back to what it's been, what it's proven to be, which is a bad past defense that gets up way too many explosive plays that can't tackle, that can't communicate, that can't play connected on the back end. Offensively, the protection in late game situations is a problem. They cannot run the ball. Like, these are things that are not going to change with the current personnel. And so it's hard to sit here and say with two games against the Broncos, who as you said, a resurgent, with a game against the bills, with one more game against the Chiefs still remaining, that this is going to turn around. They're going to rattle off, you know, six wins in a row and make the playoffs.

And the reality is if they miss the playoffs, like, I don't think ownership is going to believe in the current structure of things from top to bottom. And they're going to have to seriously consider, you know, wholesale changes in the front office. and with the coaching staff. Last thing, and I'll let you go, and we'll be sure to talk to you in early January as things inch towards the end of the regular season and further. In the short term and in the long term,

how would you fix this? Give us your abridged version, because this could go on for an hour, but you're around this team, you see the flaws, you see the hype in August that is never seemingly fulfilled by October, November, December.

What does this organization need to do to be different, to change the storyline that has been so persistent for the last 15, 20 years. How much time you got? Exactly. I said, we don't have an hour. Also, I'm not getting paid enough money to come up with a good answer to that question.

You know, if I had the answer to that question, I'd be getting paid millions. Yeah, maybe the Chargers should scoop you up for a low personnel role. I'd be getting paid millions as a general manager. I think it starts with bringing in a new voice at GM. And this is not some smear campaign against Tom Telesco, but like we were talking about earlier, Like the results are the results, 11 seasons of this way of doing things, and you have two playoff appearances. And so if you want to talk about like what's been the through, outside of ownership, what's been the through line from like late Philip Rivers era to current Justin Herbert era. It's the same GM.

Yeah. Like you said, you just don't see 11 year, 10 years with two playoff wins. Exactly. You see 11 year 10 years with a couple Super Bowl runs or whatever, multiple playoffs. But like, that's a good point. And so like I think the processes from drafting from free agency, everything. I think the processes have been adjusted and refined over those 11 seasons, but there's still like these core ideas and these core ways of doing things that are going to remain the same when you have the same person as that general manager.

And so I think if you want to chart a different path, it has to start there. And I think, you know, if you look at some of the things that have gone wrong for Tom Telesco, I think for the most part during his tenure, they did not really build a good offensive line. Under Staley, they've made a lot more of an effort to do that. But one thing that is snake bit in this organization over and over again is that they've signed offensive linemen who are either close to 30 or over 30 and have relied on those offensive linemen to be key pieces of the unit. And it has not gone well over the length of the contract. You can go to Mike Pouncey, you can go to Russell O'Coon, you can go to Brian Bilaga. You know, even most recently, you know, Corey Lindley has been fantastic when he's been on the field.

Now he's dealing with the heart-related medical issue. I don't want to dive too deep into exactly what's going on there because I want to respect, you know, Corey Lindley's privacy, obviously. But like, there is an element to it where, you know, you sign Asian players and these things have a, you know, a higher probability of happening, whether it's injury or something else. And so like those types of approaches, right? Like I think that has to change. You have to bring in a new voice.

You have to bring in new ideas because what this is is not working. You know, regardless of how good Tom Telesco might be in terms of operating within whatever constraints exist, like that is where I would start. Bring in somebody new, bring in somebody fresh, get new ideas in the building in terms of how to build the roster. Also how to interview and hire coaches, right? that is a part of being a general manager. Tom Telesco has now hired two coaches. Mike McCoy and him were sort of hired at the same time, so I don't pin that one on Telesco,

but he was the GM involved in these interviewing processes for Anthony Lynn and now for Brandon Staley, and neither of those have worked out. New ideas will affect all those things. You know, how you draft, you know. Maybe, you know, in the future, they will be more willing with a new voice to draft a receiver under six foot,

who was damn good in college, and everyone thought was going to be able to produce immediately as opposed to going with the 6-4 athletic freak, right? Like these types of different approaches will change how you acquire talent, how you construct a coaching staff, and then all of that in theory, you know, could lead to just a different overall vibe of the team. So you can get out of what feels like an endless loop of, you know, the crazy part is in 2020, I made, like a dumb graphic for Twitter called the Charger's cycle of sadness. It's, and that was under a previous coaching regime.

And it's still being used because it's the same thing, you know? That's what I'm saying. That's my first question. Why are they the same team every year? It feels like it more than any other team. So it's, you know, except for maybe the Bears. You know, needs addressed in for agency and more needs addressed in the draft

and then Super Bowl dark horse and then massive optimism and then crippling injuries and then missed expectations and then needs addressed in the draft. And then I mean, it's, and so like what is the, what are the constants here? Well, ownership. Can't force them to sell the team. So what's the other constant that's been here for over a decade? It's the general manager. And so I think you have to start there.

And if you do move on from the general manager, I think you have to give the new general manager an opportunity to go find the coach that he wants. A lot of times that's the hardest move to make because Tom Telesco is objectively not terrible at his job drafted Justin Herbert when there were some questions. but sometimes you don't know that's the right move until you make it, until it's three months down the line, four months down the line, a year down the line. Maybe that's what this team needs, but we'll see.

Like always, the chargers are fascinating for a lot of different reasons. Some of them good, some of them not, but we're glad you're here to break it all down. And thank you for your insight. We'll be checking in with you in a couple weeks, and good luck over the next six weeks of the season. I have a feeling you're going to need it. Thanks, Zach. Appreciate you having me.

All right, next up from my hometown, Indianapolis, Indiana. our Coltsbeat writer James Boyd. James, another quiet week on the Colts beat. There's a lot to dig into, but let me just start here with the football game. The Colts are 6 and 5. Anything surprised you about where they're at right now? I think the most surprising part, obviously beyond the record being 6 and 5, despite all the things that have happened, is that to continue to have people step up in very unique ways. They went in Carolina with two Kenny Moore pick 6s. They go overseas to Germany and they gutted out with the last second Julian Blackman interception.

Then yesterday you have, you know, Ronnie Harrison Jr., who's only been on the roster or active roster for like a week, he gets a pick and kind of jumpstarts things. So they keep finding these unique ways to win and you kind of wonder, okay, when is magic going to run out? But at the same time, you're like, wait, what if the magic kind of gets them, you know, deeper into that playoff positioning? So it's been a fun season so far. Very interesting, obviously, with all the injuries and, you know, the whole. whole JT side, all of those things, but they're right and think of it. And I think Shane Stuyken is obviously the one leading the way and deserves a ton of credit for it. I threw this question out yesterday. Obviously, I know the Colts, you know, more than most teams. Are the Colts good? And we'll dig

into that in a minute. We've got some other things we want to dig into first. But it's not their fault. They're playing the schedule they're playing, right? You got to beat who's in front of you. They're finding ways to win. And they're in the seventh spot in the AFC playoff picture right now, which is crazy. Every single person out there would have never believed that after Thanksgiving, this team is in the playoffs without having Anthony Richardson for more than two and a half games. I think you're right. There's a lot of deserving coaches out there, but Shane Steichen, I think, is getting the most out of his roster, especially his offense, than any coach in football. Yeah, I actually wrote that story. Hey, he's a candidate for being coached here.

Yeah, what was the response? Five and five. And people were like, oh my gosh, you're crazy. you know, it's Kevin O'Connell, it's, you know, Davico Ryan's, it's Nick Siriani. And the argument wasn't that he should win in. I was just like, if we're having the conversation, it's not outlandish for him to be in it. And then now, you know how it is exactly you write something. And the football gods, I guess, or whatever, kind of lean things more towards what you wrote. You look a little bit better. And so I do think that he deserves consideration.

Obviously, they have to keep things rolling throughout the rest of the season. I mean, you get some of the pushback where it's like, oh, they've only beaten bad teams. Well, you know what good teams do? They beat the bad ones. That's not true. They beat the Ravens. Oh, absolutely.

But they're just saying, as of lay, who have they really beat and things like that. But I'm like, that's fine. That's what good teams do, though. Like, I don't remember Tom Brady and the Patriots ever apologizing for beating, you know, a terrible division every single year. Now, part of that was because they were dominant. But I'm just saying, like, it doesn't matter.

You play who's in front of you. And my counter argument for that is consider what the Colts have had to go through themselves. They didn't have John Taylor for months to start the season. AR goes down in week five. Grover Stewart gets suspended for PDs. He can't come back until week 14 at Cincinnati.

And so all of those things happened. The quarterback suspension before the season. Exactly. And so all of these things have happened and no matter what has happened, they found a way to win. And I think the biggest difference between this year and last year is that when they won this three game losing streak this year, I wondered, okay, is this going to be that

breaking point? where they let the rope go and we kind of just fall into the abyss and we get ready for the draft. And they bounced back and now have won, you know, three straight since then. So kudos to this team. And I think they're a reflection of Shane Steichen, who, again, all these players, whenever I asked them about him, they're saying he holds them accountable. He has an edge. He has some fire.

He has some meanness to them, all those things to kind of get them to where they need to go. He's doing a tremendous job. I love that fourth and one call yesterday. the little dink over the line of scrimmage to Moelli Cox. That's a great call. One of the guys they're doing this without is the guy who's been the face of this defense since 2018 when he was drafted in the second round. I've written a lot about him. You've written a lot about him.

Darius Shack Leonard. Now, he hasn't been a factor really on the field for two years, but the dude's mural hangs on the side of the stadium. And for the teams that I covered, he was such an important piece to that post-Andrew Luck era. He was the guy they were building around. They released him last Tuesday. And you were right on the news, James. And I want to ask you this, as someone who's there every day and who talks to a lot of people around this team and has a vibe for what's going on with that team, you wrote that it wasn't a surprise they released him. Maybe the timing, but not the outcome.

What led you to believe that? Just his lack of looking like the maniac, I think we all kind of were waiting and waiting and we're like, maybe. this is as good as it's going to get. And they kind of set a timeline for themselves, hey, by November, we want to see what he looks like. That's what Gus Bradley told us, the defensive coordinator, in November came, and Shaq did not look like a dominant player. So specifically, I remember last year, Frank being like he just doesn't have that burst.

And that's what made him, that special player, those instincts that take away ability. Be specific, what exactly did he look like on the practice field and in the games that makes you think he just wasn't. The maniac. To me personally, I believe he looked a step slow. He just, even the tackles that he made, you never really had those definitive tackles for loss or run stops. It was always him kind of corraling somebody after someone else had kind of stopped him. And I think it all kind of came to a head. We were over in Germany, there was a screen pass. Matt Jones throws it in the

flat to Ezekiel Elliott and Shaq just whiffed. And this was, you know, for about three weeks he had been complaining about his role, you know, not having enough snaps. I saw that play. And in that play, in my mind, I was like, that's the end. That's the end. Now, I didn't know it was going to be that soon. You thought it then. Yeah, I didn't think, like, obviously a week later, he'd be gone, but I thought in my mind,

that is the end of the Shack era unofficially. You know, whatever happens going forward, he will not be brought back. And then I also thought, how much are they going to put up with him being so frustrated while the rest of the team is trying to pull in the same direction. Now, he still wanted to win, but you have all these people who are falling in line this one dissenter. And I think after he got waived, honestly, went to his turkey giveaways, Thanksgiving giveaway, Zach, and he was relieved. That's the word I would use is relieved. Now, I get it. It was contentious. It was, you know, probably a lot of anger, emotion,

all those things. But at the same time, he never got lied to. They told him weekend and week out what his role would be. They told him going forward he would be inactive. And they decided to part ways to give him probably an opportunity to join someone else's team. You know, still got the chip on his shoulder he wants to play this year. Didn't rule that out. So we'll see. But to me, it's better for both sides because it just felt like Shaq had been banging his head up against this wall.

Now the wall's not even there anymore. He was able to kind of take a deep breath, still showed up for the community. And now he moves on. And everyone was like, why is he even at the game? That's so weird. But I think it was just a very mature response from both sides. You know, he's a legend. And just quite honestly, yes, he could have stuck around for the rest of the season.

But how would it look if you have? you know, a four-time all pro inactive. I mean, that's not a good look. So you might as well move on, get somebody else in there. Then you get the questions every single week, and then he probably spouts out. Now, I don't think they released him because he mailed off, or not mailed off, but voiced his frustrations. But again, like you said, there's no point to just carry this on if he's just not going to get any more playing time. Yeah, one thing I'll add real quickly is everyone was like, oh, you know, he just kept his mouth shut.

He still be here. No, we never got it definitively on the record from Shane Stiking. But to me, this was a purely football decision. Shaq had played like 15% of their third downs in the games that he played. He missed one this year with the groin injury. But the other nine that he played before he got cut, he was never in on third down. I thought it was even more alarming when Zaire Franklin missed the first game of his career. And they decided to roll with Saguna Luby.

Yep, wherever the hell that is. You know, second year pro, undrafted player, he played 100% of the snaps. The game of Zaire missed. They rolled with EJ speed and then Shaq was still on the wall. was still a third or fourth linebacker. And so that to me, again, with another nail in the coffin, like, this thing is over. And so we'll see where he ends up. You know, you hear some rumblings about which teams he might join, who might consider him.

But I will say this for all the fans out there listening. People are asking, oh, why would they give him up? You know, the coach, you're doing something stupid again, whatever, whatever. He's not the same player. I've watched it. And I understand from like a general fan standpoint, he's a big name. But people are expecting him to just step in and be an all pro again. that's just not the case. Otherwise, ding, ding, ding, the Colts would never get rid of them.

So hard pill to swallow for the franchise, for the fan base and others, obviously Shaq himself, but something that was not surprising had you just been around here the last few months. You're right. That's a really good point. I got a little bit of that pushback as well. Oh, he's going to go visit the Cowboys and possibly the Eagles. And people are saying he's just going to go, you know, help them win a Super Bowl. It's like, maybe, but he's not an all-pro linebacker right now. The Colts don't let him walk out the door if he is. Now, secondly, you know, it stirs to mind a little bit of Bob Sanders. Now, the situations are different, but Sanders was injured a lot in his career, came back one season to help them win a Super Bowl.

But another defensive star who's run in Indy just comes and feels a little bit premature. The ending feels a little bit premature. That's a tough one for the Colts to take. Secondly, James, another off-the-field story last week for the Indianapolis Colts because they just love to keep you busy. The owner, Jim Ursay, did not hold back. as he tends not to do in an interview with real sports. You wrote about this. We don't have to dig into everything.

Anyone listening, anyone who follows the Indianapolis Colts knows that Jim Mersey says what he thinks. He had one comment that specifically jumped out to a lot of people. He said he was prejudiced against for being a rich white billionaire. And then when he was pressed by Andrea Kramer, he doubled down and said, I believe that that's the truth. Now, James, beyond just that statement, what we were. was your takeaway when you watched the entire real clip, real sports clip? Yeah, I watched the entire

show and I thought in real time, you probably just ruined all of the good things you had to say about addiction, your comeback story with this one gaslighting remark. I would agree. I thought the piece overall spoke to a lot of the good he's done. Absolutely. And I think that's the hard part for a lot of people to kind of parse through. And even myself, you know, you want to be, you know, I guess emotional about the topic. But to me, I looked at it from a standpoint of, okay, this is a blind spot that, I mean, he's, he is. He's a rich white billionaire. And so maybe he doesn't see the world from, I would say, a more realistic point of view when it comes to just how everyone else is viewed.

because a lot of people aren't billionaires. Many of us aren't white. And so I injected a bit of my own personal experience with it. And I felt like it was measured in the sense of not angry, not pointing the finger, but just saying, hey, this is something that I feel like happened to me. And it can relate to your players a lot more than maybe what you have just said. And so, you know, doubling down and tripling down on social media, I don't know how much that helped.

But I felt like, you know, if I was going to write a piece, it couldn't just be some hit piece. It couldn't just be, you know, dismissing what he said and acting like it's not a big deal. There had to be some balance to it. And I felt like, you know, as someone who has, you know, a ton of respect for Jim Mersey, what he's done for mental health, you know, addiction, all those things, you still have to hold those people accountable when they say things that sometimes they may not be aware of the damage that it does. And so, you know, you get pushed back for it.

You get a lot of replies and comments. But people, I believe, who actually read the story, you know, with some sort of an open, you know, mind came away thinking, okay, this is something I can kind of get behind me. Because, again, it wasn't a hit piece. I have been to, you know, the kicking the stigma, you know, campaign events. I have seen him talk about these things. And I think it's admirable that a billionaire who everyone in the world thinks their life is perfect can talk about his struggles. but then to contrast that with, you know, bringing race into it and prejudice and policing,

I'm like, these are things that, you know, just realistically and statistically, honestly, they affect people of color. They put black people a lot differently than white people. Just, it's just how it is. And so it's not a victimhood mindset. It's just reality in the history of this country. And so you don't want to go too deep into it,

but I felt like, again, I thought very hard and long about everything I wrote. And then some of the responses, maybe not so much. But overall, I think it was a fair piece. And the one overarching thing I want to kind of push through here, Zach, is that, yes, I had hesitancy in writing the story. He is the owner. You know, I communicate with the owner. I try to, you know, keep an open line of communication.

But at the same time, I do know for a fact, if a player had said this, if a white player had said this, if a white coach had said this, everyone would write this story. And so in my mind, I'm like, you cannot give the owner a pass just because he's the owner. And so it was, again, about accountability. So a ton of respect there. And then you say the piece, you write the piece and let the chips fall where they may. But again, it was very interesting day for sure. And I think the clip, I mean, how do you get past that? That's the clip that, again, erases the other 25 minutes or whatever he was saying.

And I thought that that was the saddest part because there was so much good that he talked about with his addiction, struggles, his battles, and then ultimately coming out on the other side of it and being an advocate for others. It stained what otherwise, like you mentioned, was a very revealing, informative story about a complicated, nuanced man. And like you said, there's a lot of context, there's a lot of nuance that goes into this person, Jim Mersey, very unique. He did not help himself with the tone-deaf comments, and he did not help himself by attacking first take hosts the following day. But Jim Merce says what Jim Mercee wants and we'll see what happens. But overall, I think a good-hearted person, but that doesn't mean he's right in this situation.

I don't think he is. But again, what a whirlwind of a week for you? One of the faces of the defense, if not on the field for the franchise is released. Jim Mersey's very controversial, real sports piece comes out. And then they won the football game on Sunday. So let's talk about football. I don't know if the Colts are good, but they keep winning. They've won three in a row.

And I was looking at the schedule. And this is crazy because they're in the seventh spot right now, in that AFC wildcard spot. Tennessee, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Las Vegas, and Houston. All winnable. Maybe Houston's the toughest test, but they went down to Houston earlier this season and one going away. As you sit here today, a couple days after Thanksgiving,

is it crazy to think they might be able to do this, despite the fact that they've just been beating bad teams the last couple of weeks? I don't think it's that crazy anymore because, and I'll tell you why. What are we doing here? I think JT's performance yesterday looked like all pro superstar JT. I thought so too. Some vintage JT, especially those back-to-back runs that led to the first touchdown. That's the JT from 2021 I covered.

When he had that 17-yard run, I believe it was, got to the second level, just burst. I was like, okay, he looks like he's back. and I think if they get a star player in that role, and again, this is the Bucks defense that had a great run defense. They gashed him anyways, and I thought that, again, J.T. looked like the rushing champ that he used to be in all those things. And I finally had a really interesting conversation with him, Zach, after the game. You know, it was basically like just 30 seconds of me just,

it was like, you know, I'm going to ask this guy. Because he had been putting off for a while. Do you feel back? Do you feel back? And if there was like this one window of clarity, where JT's like, hey, man, it's hard. You know, everyone talks about 2021. He's like, but it's hard.

You know, those seasons don't just happen. And so we had a nice little dialogue. And I told him, I was like, it's not from, you know, me expecting you to do this. I said, maybe it's just me and naive. I said, how do you view it? He was like, there's a reason why, you know, these seasons don't just happen. He said, you want to get hot. You want to have these games.

You want to get, you know, I'm paraphrasing here. The quote is in the story. But more or less, he was like, but that's what you're chasing all the time. He said, you reach it once. and it's like this carrot in front of your nose we're always reaching for it. So he said, yes, we're trying to, he's trying to get back there.

I'm trying to be this player, but he's like, but collectively we're all trying to move this thing in the right way. And the part that he didn't say, and maybe I should have explicitly said in the story is despite that season, they didn't make the playoffs.

And so what he's chasing, he's like, man, I'd rather we all kind of get in on the action and have this success. And so, for example, he's still yet to have a hundred yard rushing game, but you know what happened yesterday? He had 91 yards,

and I believe that six yards at, carry. And then Zach Moss, the backup had 55 yards on 6.9 yards per carry. So he'd much rather have that stay fresh and then have this team rolling than to, you know, have another great season, but it doesn't amount to anything in the end. And so, um, exciting run for all of them. And it just feels like if Gardner Menshu can avoid a disaster, um, they'll be, he flirts with a lot, my friend. I mean, credit, did you see the play? Maybe you didn't see it, but Alec Pierce broke up. Gardner Minchew. Second interception yesterday, Zach.

I mean, it was a true DB play. I mean, Gardner threw it straight. I think it was Winfield. Alec played a little defense in college. He was like a linebacker for like a week in Cincinnati. In a split second, I remember your story about this, Zach, in a split second, he turned back into that linebacker and decked Antoine Winfield to basically literally break up this pick because if he doesn't hit him, he catches it easy. He broke it up.

Then Alec gets up and he does like this, the little, you know, no catch signal that all the DBs give to wide receivers. and I was like, put it down in my notes. I'm going to ask them about that later this week because that to me, if you throw the second pick there, it gets really, really dicey in that game because it seemed like they had, you know, been teetering, flirting with disaster, but they avoided it and got over the hump. So to me, the key player is Gardner Manchu.

Can he just not turn the ball over? Because when they win the turn over battle, they're undefeated this year. You know, so that to me is basically it. Just don't turn it over and do a little bit to give them a job. chance and they have been. I mean, you got Michael Hupin Jr. stepping up, 100 to 7 receiving yards. Josh Downs has looked amazing as a rookie. And they keep finding ways and they keep making me talk to unique different players in a locker. I mean, Ronnie Harrison played 12% of the

snaps yesterday and gets a pick. And in the same building that Shaq Leonard used to just rock. And then you have Shaq shot him out on on Twitter. That was the same play Shaq would pick off. Yeah. So it was, I was like, wow, this is kind of like some movie stuff going on. But right now, It's weird, it's fun, and I must say it has been truly a football season because nothing like the NFL, man. You cannot predict this stuff ever. That's the fun part. It's surprising. You didn't expect this. Nobody expected this back in August. I'll get you out of here on this. Who's playing well that's not getting a lot of attention? You mentioned Pittman. He's been really good. Downs has been a revelation as a rookie.

Will Mallory had some big catches yesterday. They like him. But I'm talking like Samson Ebukom, who had the takeaway or at the, you know, at the, at the, end, Zaire Franklin's been a stud in the middle of the defense, a bunch of guys in the secondary who had to step up? Like, who in your opinion is doing their job really well right now? I wouldn't say really well, but considering the spot that he's in, Jalen Jones, the seventh round pick, he's been starting at cornerback, he's been relied on that cornerback. They've had a lot of changes throughout this season, but ever since he stepped in and become like that third starting cornerback, he's held his own, and we talked about it. And he was a Texas A&M guy. And I asked

him before they played Mike Evans. I was like, man, what is that going to be like? And he's like, he's a legend from where I'm, you know, from and this college I went to. But he was like at the same time when I line up against these guys, him, DeAndre Hopkins and others, he was like, I can't give them too much respect. You know, I'm here too. I have to play well. And so I think his mindset, his maturity, he's got this deep, raspy voice deck that I think you would like, where he, you know, basically talks about growing up so fast because he was like, obviously I wanted to make the team. I want to play.

He's like, now I'm here. And he was even telling me the other day. He's like, I can't be a rookie anymore. We're halfway through this thing. I have to, you know, be even better, be even sharper. And so that's one guy I would give a lot of credit to because you have so many holes they've had to plug on defense, whether it's Grover Stewart. Obviously losing two starting caliber cornerbacks in the office season and stuff on Gilmore getting traded. Isaiah Rogers being suspended and cut.

You know, Juju Brint's being hurt. But Jalen has been like this steady guy. And has he been great all the time? No, but he hasn't been, you know, exposed like he just can't be out there. He shouldn't be out there. He's playing well. He's playing hard. And it looks like, you know, he might have a chance to really have a future here as a potential starting cornerback.

And so that has to be exciting for the Colts. Thanks for the Colts. We'll catch up in a couple of weeks when the Colts are getting ready for the playoffs. I mean, Miami in January, so we'll see. Oh, so you penciled in Miami. Okay. Okay. Look, if I have to choose, I mean, Miami, Baltimore, I like Miami a little bit more, you know, so we'll see.

You could do worse than Miami and January. And that is possible. I'm saying like a Titans, Bengals, Steelers, Falcons, Raiders, Texans to finish. Tell me the winnable game. They're all winnable on that schedule. Maybe you go four and two and squeeze your way in. It'd be a hell of a job by Shane Steichen. Absolutely.

Thanks for jumping on, James. Appreciate you. All right. That is a wrap of Keefer in the Beats, Week 12. Thank you so much for listening. I want to thank Daniel Popper in L.A., James Boyd at Indianapolis, Brooks Cabina in Philly and most of all Joe Persson in Charlotte for hopping on. Busy, busy, busy Monday for Joe hopping on with Frank Reich's firing and a busy couple of weeks coming for him

where the Panthers figure out where they're going from here after a tumultuous season. Busy week on the Athletic Football Show podcast feed. We'll have everything for you in the pocket with Chase Daniel, Prospect of Pros with Dame Bruegler, the Football GM podcast with Randy and Mike Sando, and obviously the Week 13 preview. much for listening. We will catch up with you guys after next week. This was the Athletic Football Show.