The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Keefer and the Beats: Hot seats, stumbles and a late steal

Episode Date: October 10, 2023

On this week's Keefer and the Beats, Zak dives into three franchises that are all at something of a crossroads: the Patriots with Chad Graff, the Vikings with Alec Lewis, and the Steelers with Mark Kaboly. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show's Kiefer and the Beats. Welcome back to the athletic football show. This is Zach Kiefer, and this is week five of Kiefer in the Beets. Hell of a week in the NFL. The 49ers showed everybody last night in San Francisco why they're the best team in the league, full stop. And I loved what our San Francisco columnist Tim Kawakami wrote this morning. The debate around Brock Purdy isn't what we thought it was.

It's not, is this guy for real? It's is this guy a pro bowler already? He sure looked like it last night in a dominating win over the Dallas Cowboys. And in Denver, you couldn't help but be a little happy for Nathaniel Hackett, who everybody knows was just utterly trashed in the preseason by Sean Payton. Well, yesterday Hackett and the Jets sent Peyton and the Broncos to one in four on the season. Denver's just terrible. Russell Wilson is now 5 and 15 as the starter since coming over last year in that trade,

and his cap hit ain't going down over the next couple of the next couple of. seasons. That's not a good situation and that's not a good team. Dan Campbell and the lions in Detroit are showing everyone. They're not just a nice, feel-good turnaround story. No, they're legitimately a good football team right now. They're four-and-one for the first time in 12 years. In Indy, the Colts have the best backup in football in Gardner Minshue, and they're going to need him over the next couple of weeks with Anthony Richardson expected to miss some time. That's now three of his first four starts in the NFL. Richardson's been unable to finish the game. due to injury.

But today, for this episode, we're going to dive into three different games and really three different franchises at different spots. We'll start in New England, where our beat writer, Chad Graff, wrote something yesterday that would have been utter blasphemy in the Upper Northeast for years and years and even decades. Chad wrote that Bill Belichick should be on the hot seat. If you've watched the Patriots the last two weeks, 72 to 3 has been the score against the Cowboys and the Saints combined. It kind of makes sense.

Now, there's a lot of nuance to this discussion, and that's why we brought Chad in. Starting with Belichick, the GM versus Belichick, the coach. Where does Robert Kraft stand in all of this? So there was a really good, informative discussion with Chad about where everyone in New England is at, because that is a very bad football team right now. From there, we'll head to Minnesota,

where Alec Lewis will explain how the Vikings, a 13-win team last season, have stumbled out of the gate, and they're one and four. Justin Jefferson is hurt, and Alex is going to give us his best guess on what happens with Kurt Cousins before the trade deadline, and then after the season where he becomes a free agent. And lastly, we'll chat with Mark Koboli in Pittsburgh, where the Steelers stole one late against the Ravens yesterday,

but still don't look like a really good team, certainly not on offense. A lot of chatter about firing O.C. Matt Canada, and even some chatter, Kaboli says, about pushing Mike Tomlin out the door after 17 seasons. But like in New England, that's a really complicated nuanced discussion. That's why we brought Mark in to dig in. All right. So, week five, Keith from the Beats, let's dig in. All right.

First up, Chad Graff is coming to us from New England, where things are really bad. Now, let's just dig in, Chad. First off, how are you doing? And how weird is it to cover the Patriots right now? considering they are not like the Patriots we have come to know. Well, it's weird too because I was not covering this team when they were winning Super Bowls year in and year out. And when a one in two or one in three start was not caused for concern,

if you think back to Ron to Cincinnati or the variety of other slow starts. There was a lot of slow starts. I looked at it yesterday. Like they were two and three. They were three and two a lot. Now they just got hot and would finish, you know, 13 and three. Right. And as you mentioned, things have changed quite a bit.

for obvious reasons since Tom Brady left. And now the Patriots are in a very weird kind of uncomfortable spot where it's early October. And I don't think it's overstating things to say, all that really matters from here on out for the rest of their season is what Robert Kraft thinks is he evaluates these final three months and has to, depending on how it finishes, come up with a potentially awkward solution for how they're going to continue.

on as Bill Belichick continues this run post Brady where he's got a 26 and 30 record since Tom Brady fled to Tampa Bay in part because of, you know, the way that he felt he was treated by Belichick. You can't separate those two things entirely. And so as amazing as it sounds, we've got three months left for Robert Kraft to decide how exactly he's going to proceed and what you do about the head coach with the best resume of all times. yet a head coach who has you, you know, among the bottom five of the league, they've got the worst offense in the NFL. They've been outscored 72 to three the last two weeks. They have given up 69 consecutive points going into next week's game in Las Vegas. So it's a mess across

the board. And the big question is, how much goodwill does six Super Bowls? How much goodwill does that buy you? Can you be bad for years to come? Do you get only two or three bad years? Like, that's the big question remaining. It's a question we've never had to ask in the Super Bowl era of any team. How much goodwill does the six Super Bowls get to you? Because I was under the assumption that Robert Kraft was basically like, Bill, you can coach this team as long as you want. But then you wrote this yesterday. And what would have been an unfathomable sentence is now the talking point, I imagine, where you are in New England and Boston.

You mentioned 69 unanswered points. They've been outscored 72 to 3, which is just crazy for a Belichick team. They haven't scored a touchdown since the second quarter of week three, and that was against the Jets. They pulled their starting quarterback, Mac Jones, and consecutive games.

They're one and four tied for the worst record on the AFC. All of that has left the Patriots in a place that's tough to acknowledge, but hard to avoid any longer. Bill Belichick should be on the hot seat. Now, here's my question to you. who's done a worse job? Bill Belichick the coach or Bill Belichick the GM?

I think it's Bill Belichick, the GM. The coach has had some questionable things and we've got plenty of time to dive into all of that. But the GM has built an offense so devoid of weapons that Matt Patricia... It is so bad. It's... They have nothing. Nothing to excite you.

I don't even know what their number one wide receiver is. Devante Parker, Kendrick Bourne, Ju-Ju-Smiths Schuster, who, by the way, you know, speaking of Bill Belichick, the GM, Jacobi Myers was here and was very productive and was really their only good player along with Ramandre Stevenson last year for what was then a very bad offense. And Bill Belichick decided to give more guaranteed money to Juju Smith-Schuster than Jacobi Myers got,

decided to trust the unknown rather than the guy that he knows, which is very different than how he's operated in the past. And then Jujis come in and done absolutely nothing. his routes are sluggish, his production is horrific. So the weapons are really bad. There are all sorts of questions about the quarterback and the quarterback's situation, which was done by Bill Belichick. The offensive line was really bad a year ago, got basically no upgrades in the offseason and is now

even worse. Everybody in the world knew that the Patriots needed help on offense. Everybody. Belichick used his money as GM to, upgrade the defense to re-sign cornerback Jonathan Jones. They go into the draft and you're thinking, all right, they're going to get a receiver in like round two, an offensive lineman in round one. And you can kind of see, see the vision a little bit of how they're going to help Mac Jones. Then they go cornerback defensive end linebacker in the first three rounds of the draft.

And at that point, it was very clear that Belichick, the GM, wanted Belichick the coach to win games 13 to 10. To save his job. Yes. And so, you know, the offense is doing their part in these 13 to 10 games. games, they're averaging 11 points. Last year, the worst offense in the league, the Denver Broncos, averaged 16 points. So the patrons have a mile to go before they even catch last year's terrible offense of the Broncos. So there's a ton that's gone wrong, but Belichick, the GM, has built a roster just devoid of much talent or superstars. You're right about this being so

fascinating because it's unprecedented, really, in the football that we've come to know over the last 30 or 40 years. But also, Robert Kraft, everyone knows his story. He was the guy that would come to Patriots, Bames as a kid when they were terrible. He bought the franchise. And really, since he took over, since the turn of the century, they have been the benchmark of success in this league. It's never looked like this.

And you wrote this yesterday. Under Kraft, the Patriots have never suffered losses of 30 points or more in the same season, let alone in back-to-back weeks. And what has become the common thread in all of that? It's Belichick. Give me your best guess. on how this nuanced, complicated, uncomfortable process plays out. Because this team doesn't have any signs of life on offense.

Former players, Edelman, Gronk, are tearing Mack Jones apart on various shows across the week. And I don't know if Belichick is a guy that's willing to give up personnel control. Would it be a situation where he gets fire? Which sounds crazy, but you are what your record is in the last couple of years. they've been downright putrid. It sounds completely crazy to talk about Bill Belichick being fired after he won his six Super Bowl following the 2018 season. And yet, given the way that things have gone and what we know about how they're built,

I do think that is on the table if this season continues to go out. I wonder if he would stay on his coach. See, that's where this gets messy because like do you strip him of personnel control? And is he even willing to accept that? Well, that I think is where it gets especially awkward is how do you broach that subject if he says, no, screw you. I brought you six Super Bowls. Which he absolutely can say.

Which he absolutely can say. He's got the old one's done that. For sure. And yeah, here's the other part of it. Even if he did say, yeah, you know what, I'll give up that. Let me focus more on game planning and the players and coaching these guys up. Who do you bring in that has the rest of? resume that if Belichick says, hey, I want to draft this guy, I want to sign that guy.

If they disagree, has the power authority, whatever, to say, you know, I disagree. And sorry, Bill, even though I haven't won anything and you've won six times, we're going with my decision. Right now, their current director of player personnel is Matt Groh. Matt Groh's dad was Al Groh, one of the guys that Belichick grew up with one of his best buddies. And so it's hard for me to envision that you just elevate Matt Groh. who would be the next in line, the common sense guy,

but it's hard to imagine that that guy, as much respect as I have for Macro, would be able to say, no, Bill, we need to draft a wide receiver this year. And even if you don't like X wide receiver, it's my call. Sorry, you know, just accept. I would love to be a fly on the wall for that.

Can I, like pay to be a fly on the wall for that decision? Because you're right, like, this is such a unique building and everyone knows how this has worked. It's his call for 23 years. years, he's made every personnel decision and obviously every coaching decision. And there's not a building like that in the league. And I thought our colleague Mike Sando made a really interesting point in his pick six column this morning about, you know, Dante Sarnake is not there. You know, Josh McDaniels isn't there. You know, all these pieces that have helped Belichick along the way. He's

obviously the main spearhead leader of this regime. But a lot of these guys are gone. And like you said, it's who's left? Who's left besides the coach who can't find a way to win? I'll get you out of here on this, Chad. This is a comment, the very first comment I saw on your story from this morning, which is getting a lot of interest, obviously. You wrote that it's time for Belichick to be on the hot seat. And I was expecting the commenters to come after you and say, you don't ever say that about this guy. But this was surprising. Here's what Mike wrote. Been waiting for this. He's still the goat, but it's time. A man should know when it's time to leave the party. Where does Patriots Nation come down? Because this is obviously delicate, right? Brady leaves.

They have a mediocre to bad season with Cam Newton. They have a pretty good season. Mac Jones is rookie year. They make the playoffs, get routed in Buffalo. Terrible last year. Horrendous this year. Are the fans ready to say goodbye to this guy and start over and maybe go look for a new quarterback too? The answer to that is starting to become yes. And I think the important context that needs to be remembered is toward the end of this, Robert Kraft kind of had to side with Bill Belichick or Tom Brady. Their relationship was fraying and fracturing. And basically Brady wanted to go somewhere where he was going to have the front parking spot and be treated different and get to call some plays.

And that just is not how Bill Belichick operates. I think he just wanted to have a little bit more fun. For sure. It's not fun in the Patriots building. It's never been fun. They're the first ones to admit that, but it was always. But winning helps. Exactly.

We're going to put in longer hours and it's going to be tougher and it's going to be cold and it's going to be nasty. And yet at the end, we're going to be hosting the Labardi. So it was all worth it. That's kind of out the window. And Brady leaves and shows that you can have success in different ways. He goes and wins a Super Bowl in Tampa. And all that Patriots fans have been left. with is the same coach who comes out and grumbles about this and that and trust me. And at the

owners meetings this year says, why should fans still be optimistic? And he scoffs and says, well, the last 20 years or why. Well, that goodwill is starting to dissipate a little bit. And the big question was always, how long would it take for that goodwill to end? Is it a never-ending supply of goodwill? For some fans, perhaps. But I think for a majority, it's starting to be, we could put up with mediocrity. We can't put up with being the laughing stock of the NFL. And right now, the Patriots are slowly becoming one of the laughing stocks of the NFL. It's crazy to hear that sentence out loud and know that it's true.

Like you said, I think for most fair, objective fans, he was going to be allowed a little bit of a runway. He was going to be allowed a couple years, mainly to fix the quarterback spot, to find the next quarterback. and to see where they go from there. He had built up enough goodwill for that and probably more. But like you said, the arrow is pointing down. And I'll let you out of here on this. How does this season end? Is there any hope for this offense?

Can they get it right? Because they have looked abysmal. And if they finish like, God forbid, 3 and 14, is this a team that could be competing for the number one overall pick? Which is crazy to think about. But that's where we are right now. That's how they look. The Patriots offense right now ranks 32nd in rushing EPA and 30 second in passing EPA.

Well, when you score three points in two games. Yeah, but there's a variety of stats that we could use our disposal here. But there may be a little bit of hope that the running game could get going, but there's just not a lot that scares you. So they're going to have to win games 10 to 7. And I still think that Bill Belichick is capable of putting together an awesome defensive game plan. and they, I think, will probably squeak out some ugly wins with special teams and defense. But, you know, I think that they're a lot closer to a team competing for the number one pick than they are competing for a wild card spot.

Wild times in New England. Good luck the rest of the way, man. I think you're going to need it. It's going to be a long winter. And one of the more fascinating teams to watch, especially after the season ends, when we think about what you mentioned, what does Robert Kraft do? It's going to be fascinating. Thanks, Chad. Awesome. Thanks for having me.

All right. Next up, are the one in four Minnesota Vikings. We're with Alec Lewis from Minnesota. Alec, I was up there in training camp, and there was a lot of buzz. There was a lot of optimism I feel like around this team. Now, I know what happened last year, division champs. They made a playoff appearance. I don't think anybody foresaw this. If you were able to put your finger on one thing of why this team is one and four right now,

what would it be? Turnovers. By far not even. close. The last three games, the Vikings have turned the ball over on the first possession in all three games. Two of those have been fumbles. One was a Kirk Cousins interception. On Sunday against the Chiefs, the Vikings came out. It was a pretty explosive play to tie in Josh Oliver, and he fumbled after a 15-yard gain and the Chiefs recovered. And that's really been the story. It's almost the inverse of last year's season where it felt like every bounce, every

every ounce of fortune went the Vikings way. And this year, it's just the total opposite. I believe before Sunday, the Vikings had turned the ball over seven times in opponent's territory. So it's just you can't not start there in terms of the season that they've had. They've been in every single game that they've played against Tampa, against Philadelphia, against the Chargers, and then on Sunday against the Chiefs. But they just keep, as KJ Osborne and the wide receiver said, It's the same story every week.

They shoot themselves in the foot. And after five games, it becomes more of a feature of this team instead of just a bug that is trying to work itself out. All right. Let me stop you there. So as beat reporters, you hear the same things over and over, right? And I've heard the shoot themselves in the foot line so many times. How many times have you heard that five weeks into the season? Well, it's becoming like hundreds.

Definitely like 50. And the other part of it is the questions, like, are, is there a theme to these? turnovers or is each one an individual turnover and then how can you guys fix the turnovers and kevin o'connell has has made it a priority talked about doing drills to help the turnover problem it's not like they weren't doing drills before like i remember when i covered the colts they had a bunch of fumbles one season and nick syriani was the oc now he's the eagles head coach and he's like nobody wants to fumble less than our guys it's a weird thing to explain because these are professionals and they're already on the jugs machine and they're already doing balls

security drills. But like you said, if it's continuing to happen, it's sort of a characterization of this season so far. I mean, the thing that I've started to wonder is the more we talk about it, is it more likely it's going to, like, I mean, people talking about the contagious thing. That's a discussion constantly. But I, I mean, it has been, Kevin O'Connell has talked about purchasing equipment online to be able to affect, to add to these turnover drills.

I mean, it's been silly. but it's been that much of an issue. I mean, it's Amazon days, right? Maybe they can find something there. Exactly. Like you're going online looking for different gadgets. I mean, but it's really become ridiculous. You have, like you mentioned, a player in Justin Jefferson, who is, I mean, probably the

most talented non-quarterback in the NFL, and he's diving for the pylon, and he loses the ball, and the ball goes through the back of the end zone. It's a touchback. I mean, when you have stuff like that, you start to wonder if it is just the football God's getting the Vikings back for what happened last year where they won 11 games by a score. I mean, that's just, this is the reality. Your mind has to go there. Football gods do weird things.

You're right. You mentioned the stat that everybody knows, right? The Vikings won 11, one score games last year. And it's not that they won 11, it's that they went 11 and 0, which is just ridiculous, and it's not repeatable. And it's maybe a little bit of an anomaly. Beyond turnovers, why are they of immediate? to bad football team right now because they brought in Brian Flores to run the defense.

The defense hasn't been great. And they have Kirk Cousins in this situation. And they have, like you said, the best non-quarterback in football. They've been in every game. They haven't finished. But like, why is this team any different than last year? Or is this the same team as last year? They're just not getting those lucky breaks.

I think it's a pretty similar team. The talent defensively is just not there. And you mentioned Brian Flores. I mean, they went from last year the most. Vic Fangio style with Ed Donatel off coverage, passive, make you move the ball down the field, to Brian Flores, who is the aggressive puncher in the ring, who's blitzing more than any other team, and the results are pretty much the same. I mean, if you look at every metric, the results are pretty much the same. Part of it is because the Vikings in 2022 drafted Lewis Seen as a safety

with their first selection in that draft, and he has barely played, if at all, defensively this season. Andrew Booth, who was a second round pick, has not factored in at all. So some of the draft picks defensively that they've taken shots on in the Quasiido Femisa regime in 2022 have not really played any role. And then just elsewhere on the talent defensively, it's older veterans like Jordan Hicks. You have DeNeil Hunter who makes an impact, but he's one pass rusher on the front. And so, I mean, the talent defensively is where you start. and then offensively where they are supposed to be. I mean, that is the tenant, that is the focal point.

That is the theme of this team. That is the identity is the passing game. And as explosive as they have been at times, it's just been so choppy. And the turnovers are part of that. But even still, I mean, you'll find on third and two, they're trying to get a 20-yard chunk. And it just doesn't, if you watch the games on a week-to-week basis, it just does not feel fluid offensively. And there could be a host of reasons for that. play calls, quarterback, the interior of the offensive line, but just in reality, it doesn't feel

like an offense that probably should be more explosive considering the weapons at the skill positions that they have. And now Jefferson has a hamstring, could be out for a little bit of time, that's not good, he's irreplaceable, no one has a replacement for him anywhere in the league. Let's shift gears to the quarterback because it's a fascinating conversation right now. Kirk Cousins has had these guaranteed deals. he's a free agent at the end of this season. And there's a lot of question marks about where this team goes.

Is he come back? Is he a guy that gets recruited by other teams who are looking for an answer? And this is going to be very fluid because it seems like there's another team every week that's looking for a new quarterback. If this season continues to go the way it does, is he the quarterback there next year? I mean, right now it doesn't feel like that at all. I mean, I think the better question would be, if the season continues to go the way it goes, and they go at Chicago, and then they host San Francisco on Monday night after that, which we know what San Francisco is doing right now.

So you find yourself before the trade deadline, potentially at two and five, one and six. Would they really ship him out before the trade deadline? The real issue there is Kirk. To get some value as opposed to him leaving in free agency. But Kirk has a no trade clause. So that would be the two hurdles to make. I can't see him waving that. Can you?

No, I wouldn't. It doesn't feel like that, especially with him having the weapons that he has here and the potential to put himself in that situation. The other question would be, would the Wills, the ownership, be willing to punt on a season? They preach competitiveness every single year. It's something that they value. They want to be in it. The back half of the schedule isn't that strong. But I think if you're this team looking at how can we get out of the neutral of being the 7 and 10, of being the 8 and 9, the 9, the 9,

the 9 and 8, even the 13 and 4 at the peak peak level where you're losing the first round of the playoffs. How can we find our way out of that? I think you have to discuss it. But Kurt Cousins, I mean, he has multiple times in the past bet on himself. He and the team did sit down and talk about an extension this offseason. Neither side could come to an agreement on their two differing wants. The Vikings want long-term flexibility. Kirk Cousins wants security.

it didn't happen. And so right now it just seems like he's going to write it out. And if the team is 2 and 5, 1 and 6 beforehand, those discussions, it's hard not to think that those discussions would at least be had or thought about internally. I could see it going both ways. Like I was just talking to Chad Graf in New England and he's like, I was like, I don't think it's going to turn there. I don't see any hope there for this season.

In Minnesota, I could see them clawing to 7 and 10 or even 8 and 9. and having that discussion, let's come back. Kurt, we've got Justin Jefferson. They're going to pay him, obviously. But I could also see them just staggering to a five and 12 season. And like you said, they're in that no man's land where you're good, but you're not great. And this team obviously wants to be great. And that division seems like it's tilting the other way towards the Detroit Lions who are playing very well. And Green Bay might be good. We don't know yet. How do they get out of that mediocrity? And I think, you know, it's a quarterback draft, are they going to be high enough to take one of them? I don't know what the Vikings do, but that's going to be the fascinating part. That's always been the conversation. When you, I mean, again, the Wills, the ownership group wants to be competitive every year. So how do you juxtapose wanting to be competitive and potentially picking from 15 to 23 or what have you while also trying to get a quarterback at the top of the draft? They're not going to be bad enough to be in the top five. I don't think. But then again,

they're one and four. I mean, this is where you start to think, well, If you do trade off some pieces like a DeNeil Hunter who's on a one-year deal, like a Marcus Davenport is on a one-year deal, a Byron Murphy, then your team gets worse for the present, but for the future and drafting a potential quarterback, it's a fascinating day. But that is the answer. You ask, how does this team get out of the purgatory, the middle? It is drafting a quarterback on a rookie deal who is a special talent.

And Kevin O'Connell, who is a quarterback guy. he came up through coaching through the private development quarterback space. I mean, he has a lot of familiarity with how that process works. Quasido Famitsa the GM really values what Kevin is probably going to prioritize in a quarterback that they could potentially draft. And to your exact point, this is a draft where there are a lot of guys, whether it's Drake May Caleb Williams, Michael Pennix. I mean, there's just a lot of – Quinn Neuer's a lot of names to where it does seem

to kind of align, especially with Kirk's situation. So that's the answer in terms of getting out of the purgatory. But if you're not picking at the top, then you start to ask, do they have the draft capital to go up and get a guy? And the complications make this thing really hard to kind of to pigeonhole to think about how they're going to thread the needle. It's never easy, right? There's no obvious starting point for any team to sort of rebuild, right? But it's especially messy with the Vikings. On the good sign, it would be a clean break with cousins, right?

There's no, it's a clean break. There's no, you know, there's no trade. There's no leftover money. There's no dead money. But on the other side, you're going to draft a quarterback to come in as a rookie. And you got Jefferson on his fourth year next year who's going to be paid. Like, that's when he's really inching into his prime. Let's be honest.

He's already there. He's so damn good. That's not ideal to have to have a quarterback come in and learn and grow while you've got the best non-quarterback in football on the outside. I don't want to be the gym because that's a really tough decision. And then you got cousins who can win you 10 games. But then again, you're going to have to pay them a lot of money, $45 million a year probably. And the last couple of deals he's gotten have been guaranteed, which is crazy.

But that's a messy situation. And this season is not helping their long-term prospects in that regard. No, and it's a great point. Part of what their strategy has been is let's build up the offensive infrastructure for the time that we could potentially add a rookie quarterback to the mix. And that makes sense if you have Justin Jefferson and T.J. Hogginson and Christian Darrasaw left tackle who's also probably going to be paid pretty shortly and Brian O'Neill at right tackle. You have a solid with the head coach and Kevin O'Connell who knows that position. You have a solid situation for a rookie quarterback to step in just in terms of what will be surrounding him and the weapons that he'll have.

But to your exact point, Justin Jefferson is a guy who we've already seen over the course of this season. When they lose, I mean, he does not like losing. The fact he's even playing without the extension just proves the competitiveness and how much this guy loves the game and loves to be in the competition. So to have a rookie guy that you'd have to bring along in the middle of his prime, it is a situation where you just start to think about all the dynamics and it's tough. I mean, it really is. And yeah, it's what makes this Viking situation pretty fascinating. And it's probably quite challenging for the people in charge. I think you excuse those early quarterback lumps if it's Caleb Williams or if it's Drake May.

But those guys are going to go one, two. And you've got the Bears in great position with two picks high. You've got the Patriots who look like trash, who are going to be picking higher than they've picked in 25 years. And you've got some other teams that are just flat out not good. I feel like the Vikings are better than those. So this is going to be fascinating to watch it play out. After watching the Vikings last season make that run, and I know it ended in disappointment. I felt like they were just a really good team that if the defense got better, they could really be players in the NFC.

They weren't in Dallas or San Francisco or Philadelphia's class, but they were in the next tier. And here we are, one and four. We'll see what happens the rest away. But thanks for hopping on, Alec. Yeah, of course, Zach. Always fun to catch up. Appreciate it. And it will be fascinating.

That's for sure. All right, welcoming in Pat McAfee's favorite NFL beat writer. Am I allowed to say that? I think that's accurate. Mark Caboli from Pittsburgh. How are you doing, man? Pretty good. How are you doing? I don't know. Maybe Schneidman's the guy. I heard you're pretty good.

It might be Schneidman. It might be. Yeah, you know, the old Crocs and socks, Schneidman, they could be, well, definitely you too. But my problem is the Steelers stink so bad over the past two years. They're not quite interested in talking to me anymore. So maybe I'm on my outs. I need the Steelers to start playing well so they can give me more of a call so I can, you know, Maybe they're coming back.

Better my brand. Better my brand, right? That's what you want to call it, right? So let's dig in. This was ugly. This was an AFC North game in a lot of ways, right? It was 10 to 3 forever, and I thought the Ravens were going to get out of there with the win and sweep the AFC North on the road this season, which would have been impressive.

But can he pick it back from the dead, you know, leads this great fourth quarter comeback, 17 to 10. Steelers win. They're tied for first place in the AFC North at 3. too with the Ravens. I want to start with the quarterback because you wrote a pretty strong opinion analysis column, whatever you want to call it, that Pickett is the guy and can be the guy if you exercise patience.

Why do you so strongly believe that? Because he's not been very good. No, he hasn't. I mean, first of all, he started what? He didn't have any offseason two years ago as a rookie. They were going to go with Mitch Trubisky. Then they threw him in blindly, basically, what, 12 quarters? into the season.

And last year was just a learning process. But he played extremely well down the stretch and short spurts. The fourth quarter comebacks, I believe he had four of them last year. He led him two impressive wins against Oakland, Vegas and Baltimore and back-to-back weeks. Then the off-season, the off-season, he had a tremendous off-season where he just looked unbelievable in OTAs, pre-training camp.

Then he comes to the preseason with absolutely perfect. Five drives, five touchdowns, 17 total plays. That's the preseason. But it showed you, but it was more than just a preseason. It was how he was throwing the ball, the decisions he was making, the whole shebang, so to speak, you could tell that he was a very, you had high hopes. You heard everybody talking about, hey, Kenny Pickett's your sleeper. Then you get to the season, he stinks, right?

And everybody wanted to throw him on Lisa and Pittsburgh, mile questioning him after four weeks, five weeks, if this guy really has what it takes. And I just say you've got to be patient with him. I see what he is capable of doing physically. We already know he has the intangibles. Plus, when you go first round pick, 20th overall, two years ago, you're pretty much tied to this guy for four years, you know, four to five years.

So even if they wanted to get sure about it, you're going to keep him because you're not going to invest another draft pick that high. This people have only used a first round pick on Ben Rothesberger, Terry Bradshaw, and Mark Malone in a span of 40 years. It's not what they do. So you have to be patient with him. You're tied to him. a lot of it has to do with the coordinator not really playing to some of his strains so I like what I see out of him

I think it's going to take a little bit more time than say you know Manninger Trevor Lawrence right right so I think you just have to be patient with the guy because I think he has the talent and the intangibles he has five fourth quarter comebacks already and he started 17 games

that's pretty impressive those throws to pick were legit yesterday and Pickens is legit. Those were sideline shots that were great in that moment. And here's what you wrote. Sure, the analytics don't suggest that's true. But my iolitics tell a different story. Pickett is going to be very good in this league at some point. Maybe it's not 17 games into his professional career, but it will come.

Here's my question to you. Do people in Pittsburgh agree with you? They used to. Right now they're a little skeptical. It's kind of crazy. that because they all hate Matt Canada. We're going to get to him. They all think it's his fault.

But in what's born out of that was maybe Kenny's not the guy because he hasn't put together a fourth game yet, which he hasn't put together. They full start to finish game. He has what, 14 career touchdowns or whatever the numbers are. It's not like he's been

blowing the doors off the water, but I don't know what. Gates, you know, he's been good. He hasn't been great. And so people are a little bit skeptical. And you consider how loved and beloved he was, not only last year coming out of University of Pittsburgh as well, people are now questioning if he's that guy because of the arm strength,

some of the happy feet, so to speak, some of the, you know, four decisions he's been making. So it used to be like, no doubt, Kenny's in Hall Famer, let's put him in now. Yeah. Now people are taking that step back and saying, I'm not quite sure yet, which is a huge difference from just a month ago. So you know how Pittsburgh fans are, man. They think everybody should be fired.

They are passionate, and that's putting it kindly. At one point during the game yesterday, they were Fireman Canada chance, raining out in, it's not called Three Rivers. It's not called, what is the new name of the stadium? Accra Shored. I'm not quite sure. It's still Heinzfield to me. It's still Heinzfield to me. But my question is, if Matt Canada was a politician, what was his approval rating B right now in Pittsburgh?

Oh, man. It might be like non-existent, right? Is it that bad? Oh, it's beyond bad. Because fans always want to find a culprit. They always want to blame somebody. Is it Matt Canada or is the blame stretch further? Well, the correct answer is, it's.

blame to go all around. But you know how it is in the Madden world right now that everybody thinks they're the offensive coordinator can do better. I mean, Matt Canada's stats have been just disgusting, you know, over his three years. So it's hard to argue that. So everybody thinks he stinks. Everybody wants him fired. Even after they're three and two right now and won that game yesterday, they didn't do much

of anything. in that game. They still haven't only scored one touchdown yesterday I believe yeah, a couple field goals of safety. They beat the Browns on a couple defensive touchdowns. So not too many people

are sold with them. Everybody wants him still fired right now thinking that maybe quarterback coach Mike Sullivan would be a better answer right now. That's not going to happen. I think Sullivan came to job throughout the season. Is Tomlin just too stubborn?

Does he really believe in Canada? Well, first of all, he's stubborn. He doesn't want to admit that he's wrong and brought him back. And number two is I think he believes that if you're able to get the 8-9 win season, which is the AFC all of a sudden doesn't look that difficult. AFC North doesn't look difficult at all. Right now, I think the Steelers would be a three-seat in the AFC place. We got a long way to go, man.

Yeah, but if you blow this up right now, you probably have no shot. There's a reason why not many coordinators are dumped in mid-season. I know they did it with Indy last year, but that was a unique situation, I believe. Joe Brady, Mike McCoy, maybe. You usually wait until after the season to do that, and there's a reason for that. You're just going to bring another guy in to run the same scheme. You look at last year, Zach, they were after the buy week. week, they went seven and two.

And they were two and six before the by week. They probably believe that something similar like that can happen this year. And if you're seven and two after the by week this year, you know, you're pushing nine, 10 wins and you're probably making the playoffs right now. You dump your coordinator now. You probably have no shot because like I said, you bring in the, you bring a guy in to run somebody else's scheme. So that and I think there's a little bit of those.

ego involved in it. I'm not, I can pretty much sure that Matt Canada won't be back next year unless Kenny Pickett somehow throws 40 touchdowns in the next 12 games, but I don't think that's going to happen. What about

Mike Tomlin? Is he above reproach in that city or is there a faction of the fan base that is ready to try something new? I know that sounds crazy in Pittsburgh, but let's be honest. I've got a young quarterback. What works the most in this league with young quarterbacks, young offensive coaches.

Yeah, trust me, everybody wants to get rid of Tomlin, too. Really? That's not saying something light in Pittsburgh. Yeah, they want to get rid of him for a while. They point to, I think, one playoff win in six years. They've had some really bad playoff losses over the years. To get the Kansas City, they're getting whipped by Jack. I think their last three playoff games, they gave up 45 points each game.

So everybody points to the no-losing. record nationally, locally. They're like, yeah, but when was the last time they actually won anything? Yeah. You have to go all the way back to 2008. I think they won the Super Bowl. 2010, they were in the Super Bowl. That's a long time ago, man.

Yeah, it's a lot of people want to get rid of him as well. Now, that's the fan base, logistics of it all. We're talking about an organization who said three head coaches in 60 years. You tell me, he pretty much has a lifetime. contract until Mike Tomlin says he wants to leave is the only way he would leave. I don't think the Rooney's are basically just like, Mike, you can coach as long as you want here. Yes, there's a lot tied to it. I mean, first of all, they don't want to seem like they're a meddling owner.

You know, Art Rooney does not want to be that medley owner. He doesn't want to be the Ursi. You know what I'm saying? He doesn't want to be the Joe, Jerry Jones. He's not. Trust me. So there's no way he wants to be that. So he pretty much, I mean, he has as much passion as you'll ever see a coach.

There's never been a player either currently or a free agent that came in here and talked bad about Mike. It was always, hey, this is a reason why I came here. I want to play for Coach T. Yeah. Coach T put us here. But that's from the inside. And that's where the Rooney's look from, the outside, where the fans look at and say, yeah, but you haven't done garbage in a decade. This is one of the biggest, best fan bases in the league, the most passionate.

And like you said, you have to look at the wins and the losses and the success and not whether players like playing for him. Everybody respects Mike Tomlin, but like you said, one playoff win in six years or whatever it is. A lot of people think that the game is passing by, as in he doesn't keep up with the Jones. Jones is, so to speak, it's more of an offensive league, and he's still worried about physical power running team, so that's their argument.

But then you got the other side of it is if he's fired, who do you think would hire him? Probably about 26 of the 32 teams would probably get rid of her coaches, right? Yeah, so you got to look at it both ways. It's just not an easy

decision to get rid of them. Trust me, the guy still has to passion after 17 years and typically that's what goes right uh when yeah yeah you're you're just done with it you're you're burnt out you're bill cower i need time off it's just not like that with him so i think he's here until he's until he says i don't want to coach anymore all right mark last thing and i'll get you out of here how does this end because i feel like they escaped with one yesterday you could make the case if the ravens lost this more than the steelers won it i don't want to take anything weighing from Pickens and Pickett, that was a great finish for that offense.

They needed it. But how does this end? Are they real, legit contenders in the AFC North? Because the Bengals look good yesterday. They might be back. The Ravens aren't going anywhere. The Browns have a vicious defense. They could very well end up in last place in this division.

I could see that happening. Is that enough for changes to happen? Or how does this turn? I don't think so. I think they're a, I mean, I picked them at the eight-win team not playoff before the season. starting, I was called every name in the book by the local fans because at that point they thought they were going to be a 14 and 3 team because of the preseason. 14 and 3? The people did because that preseason they had was unbelievable in the offseason.

They got to know in Pittsburgh that preseason is preseason. But it was so out of ordinary of how great they play. Plus, you have to throw in the people they acquired with the new GM. They got Isaac Siammalu at Guard, which. they really needed. They were getting like Juan Alexander's for like minimum prices. They were upgrading across the board. Depth was just everywhere, something they never had. So they put that together with a great preseason. And they were thinking, okay, this is the season. I still thought they were still a year or so away from that. Yeah, I mean, put it this way,

though, they won two games against the Browns and the Ravens. They should have no business winning. So that gives them a little bit of a wiggle room here. Their schedule isn't really tough, but I'm not a big schedule guy because who knows what can happen. I mean, they still got the Cardinals, Patriots. I mean, I would say the Colts, but they're playing. Those teams are terrible.

Yeah, the Colts are actually playing well. Yeah, they're okay. They're playing some bad teams here down the stretch. I can't even. I mean, Packers, they play. Packers are at home. So they can get to that eight or nine win. I don't know what that does for you.

Sure. Then you're a mediocre team that misses the playoffs. And I don't know if that appeases the fan base all that much, to be honest. But you have to understand, too, is with the new GM, it's a total rework of the roster. Or for the most part, the depth of the roster with Andy Whitel coming over from Philly. He was Howard Roseman's right-hand man, Omar Kohn. So they seemed like they had a good first step at rebuilding where they needed to rebuild it. Now another season in the books.

And they got some decent young offensive players. I mean, Deonti Johnson's been out the whole season, but he got him. You got Pickens. You got Najee's hair. You got Jalen Warren. You got Fryman with you got Pickett. You got Roder Jones, Siam Allo. You got these guys on offense that look like they can take that next step.

and they got, you know, $120 million defense. I mean, everybody on defense is making like $30 million, it seems like. So my thought is you get, if you can get to the playoffs this year, great. A year or two from now is when you're really, everything starts to come together and then you can become a potential, you know, Super Bowl contender. But we'll see. If you're right. I don't want to.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. You're the voice of reason. Pittsburgh, which I'm sure, I'm sure nobody's telling you that right now. Everybody wants to fire Canada. Everybody wants to fire Tomlin. Everybody wants to runies the force to sell. It's just, it gets out of control from time.

I mean, let's use your head a little bit here. The games passed by, Art Rooney. He's nothing like his dad, Dan. What did Art ever win? I mean, it's ugly days. Just imagine they were 0 and 5 rather than 3 and 2. Right, right. Good stuff.

Thanks, Mark. All right, Zach. You take it easy. All right, that's a wrap for week five of Keefer in the Beats. I want to thank Mark Caboli in Pittsburgh and Chad Graff and Foxborough and Alec Lewis in Minnesota for hopping on on busy Mondays to shed some light and insight and information on where those franchises are at five weeks into the season because we're starting to get a feel of where these teams are going and the flaws that might hinder them down the line.

So some fascinating conversations. Hope you guys enjoyed them. That's why I love bringing Breitwriters on because they're the ones there every day, talking to the coaches, talking to the players who really get a sense and a feel for what's going on in those buildings. We've got one Monday night football game on tap the Raiders and the Packers, and we will catch up with you guys after week six. Thanks for listening. This was the athletic football show's Kiefer and the Beats.