The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Keefer and the Beats: It was a wild Week 2

Episode Date: September 19, 2023

In this Week 2 recap Zac Keefer is joined by Jets beat writer Zack Rosenblatt, Bengals beat writer Paul Dehner and Giants beat writer Dan Duggan. It's a discussion of comeback wins, QB franchise injuries and more! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Zach Kiefer, and this is Kiefer in the Beats. Please don't blame me for the name. But what a wild week two in the NFL. Ten games so far have been decided by one score or less. That includes a walk-off win by the Seahawks in Detroit. Game-winning kicks by the Falcons over the Packers, the Titans over the Chargers,

a Hail Mary in Denver that gave the Broncos a chance to tie the commander with a successful two-point try after the clock reached zeros. And let's not forget the biggest comeback for the New York Giants in 70 years. Today, for this show, I wanted to start here with Zach Rosenblatt, our Jets Rider, who's had a hell of a week. We recorded our first episode last Monday before the Monday night football game that really shaped and changed the tenor of this NFL season, certainly in New York with Aaron Rogers.

Four snaps in. He's done. Zach has been working nonstop. first on the plans at quarterback for the Jets, covered the game in Dallas. Are they going to stick with Zach Wilson? Is this team good enough, coached enough, built well enough to not collapse after such a catastrophic turn of events? Some might say the most Jets thing ever. From there, we'll head to Cincinnati. The Bengals are 0 and 2. And Paul Dana Jr. can offer some insight as to why this O&2 start feels different than last year's O&2 start. And oh, by the way,

there's a lot of worry going on right now with the calf of Joe Burrow. Their $275 million franchise quarterback. And lastly, we can't forget about the Giants. This was a ridiculous game. They were down 60 to zero in their first six quarters of football in 2023, including 20 to zero to the lowly Arizona Cardinals on Sunday in the desert. And then somehow, some way, Daniel Jones and Sequin Barclay caught fire, and they rallied to a last second win,

getting them to one-in-one. Are there concerns there? Do they feel like Sequin might be out for a while? Where does this giant season go from here? A lot to get into with Dan Duggan, our Giants rider, who's staying on the West Coast before a big Thursday night game against the 49ers. So we got a lot to dig into. Let's get into it.

All right, let's welcome in our Jetsrider, Zach Rosenblatt. Zach, before we get to the Jets, forget the Jets for a minute. How are you doing? Because it's been a week. It's been a week, man. Oh, man. Last week was a very long one. I told Allison, I'm going to need to tomorrow, this is Tuesday, which is usually the day off for the jet. So my goal is to take the day off, but as you know with these things, especially from you covering the colds.

Like even when you plan to have a day off, something will happen. You're not getting a day off. You're not getting a day off until February, maybe, January? Last week was one of the crazier weeks on the beat, though, just because like the insanity of what happened with Aaron and then like all the after effect of it. then what happened and then I'm moving forward and trying to figure it. Like, it was just like so much the one. So I do feel like there's a little bit of a weight off my shoulders now that I got through the week is what I would say. So let's go back to camp in August and there was so much hype.

There was hard knocks. There was Rogers talk every day on every national show. Were you buying into the fact that they were legit Super Bowl contenders? Did you see that? I mean, we saw it in week one. The defense is legit. They were legit last year. Were you buying into the fact that they could really contend?

before all this changed? I was buying into it, like, on paper. Like, it was all an idea more than, like, I needed to see how they looked with Rock. Because there was a lot of questions about, you know, the offense had some bumpy days in camp. Rogers is very demanding what he wants with the hand signals and the cadence.

And, you know, it's kind of his offense. And so I think, you know, a lot of guys were banged up. The offensive line never practiced together. So, like, I had a lot of questions about all that little stuff. But I also knew how good they were last year, despite not having a quarterback, like, for the first half in season. I thought the defense was going to be very good this year. Garrett Wilson is going to be a star.

And I think they had the pieces to be very, very good. If Rogers could even be average, and camp he looked like he was going to be better than that. So I don't know if I was ready to call him like a Super Bowl, like a Chiefs, you know, not the Bengals anymore, but like, you know, the Eagles, like one of those teams. But I did think that they would be a contender. And he seemed to really, really embrace

restarting, for lack of a better term, in New York. And you wrote this story that came out the day of the game. Like he felt like he was at home and he loved meeting his new teammates and he seemed almost revived and refreshed. I wonder what it would have looked like if we didn't have this Achilles tear, right? I wonder what it would have evolved. Like I wanted to see him play against the Cowboys yesterday. And I guess that's the feeling of every Jets fan out there is like,

what would this have been like if we weren't robbed four snaps? into the season. I mean, that's the sad part of all this. Like I said to somebody walking out of the Matlife Stadium the day it happened. Like, it's as almost as if the last five months didn't even happen. That's crazy, man. Yeah. Especially as it's like we're starting back at square one with Zach Wilson at the quarterback

and it's going to be all the same questions. And it just like it feels like none of that just happened all of a sudden because like four snaps is just absolutely insane. I think, you know. That's the most Jets thing ever. Yeah, exactly. Jets thing ever. both like Jets fans and, you know, writers and media and everybody would make a joke,

it would be the most jet, like, you know, Aaron Rogers for sure going to, like, you know, have a terrible injury or something because he's the Jets quarterback. I don't think even those people who were kind of half serious would have thought it would happen for plays in. Like, he has one pass attempt on his ledger as a Jets quarterback. I think the only person outside of Connor McGovern in the center that has touched the ball from him is Breeze Hall because he handed it off to him on the first play. So we're going to go into next year because I don't know that I believe the whole I'm going to come back this year thing.

I'm trying to put out there. So we're going to go this whole year without ever actually seeing what the offense looked like with legitimate quarterback. Because I'm sure we're going to talk about Zach Wilson, but he's not a guy that's going to lead you to play out victories, I would say. Right. That's the thing. And even just like me as a media member, I did feel like I got robbed of like just like watching competent quarterback playing a team that was like, you know, it's better to cover a team that's winning. Like a lot of times fans are mistake when we cover, when we're covering a bad team and they call us negative for like writing about what's happening.

But we don't want them to be bad. Like that is not true. We want them. If they're winning, it is good for everybody. And I was, I was excited about the possibilities. You deserve that after everything you've covered. I mean, you had a tweet during the game, the Bills game that just stuck out at me. It was like, so we're doing 2022 all over again.

And I'm like, oh, like you mentioned how those five months just disappeared. I mean, like whether you like the Jets or not, whether you like, you like Aaron Rogers or not, this is a loss for the NFL because they were interesting and they were fascinated. And it was just going to be so fun to see how it evolved, whether it was good or bad. Okay, so let's obviously shift to Zach Wilson. And I watched the game, Michigan, the Cowboys. That's almost unfair to just throw him in to that situation against that defense. They're probably going to finish the year leading the league in just about every defensive metric, either them or the Niners or whatever.

It doesn't matter. But he wasn't great. but also what you wrote yesterday, he wasn't the reason they lost. And that was probably the surprising part. How does that play out over the next five, six weeks? Yeah. Because he has to play perfect-ish. He's not going to work.

But if he doesn't have to play perfect, they could have a chance. Yeah. Well, that's why, like I said, we're back in, we're back in 2022, because last year, their formula when they started six and three, it was they did it with their great defense and they did it running the football very, very well. And that was a brief fall primarily. And so what you saw in their game against the Cowboys is, you know, I think in order for them to win with Zach Wilson, like, he's never going to like win a game for them.

But he can, you know, be the quarterback on a team that wins games. But that's only going to happen if the defense is great and in the running game is firing in all cylinders. Because I still don't know that I trust this offensive line either. So they only gave Breece Hall the ball four times on Sunday and was not happy about it. He, you know, when I started asking him a question in the postgame locker room, he kind of cut me off. before I even finished the question to be like, well, I only had four carries. That's why we didn't run the ball well. He made it clear.

But yeah, I think it all starts there. Yeah, he made it clear. So it really just comes out. The defense can contain the other offenses and they have some tough challenges coming up. You know, the Patriots, maybe not. But you have the chiefs and Eagles in the coming weeks. You have the chargers after the buy. You know, they have some challenges coming up as a defense and they need this running

game to play a lot, a lot better than it did. And if those two things aren't working, then Zach Wilson, they can stack the box, not be scared of Zach making any plays down the field. you know, Garrett Wilson, at some point he might get frustrated that he's not getting the ball enough. But these are kind of the challenges you have when you have a quarterback who, you know, to this point in his career has been below average. And that's almost putting it kindly. It is putting it kindly. And you wrote, but at least Wilson is not like he was a year ago.

And that's the truth. His numbers don't tell the full story. And there was a scene you led with of his teammates sort of wrapping him in their arms, metaphorically or whatever, after the game. even guys that didn't have his back last year when he played poorly. Has that changed? And is that enough to keep them significant? Or is it just such a blow to lose that quarterback Aaron Rogers that this season kind of died with him? Yeah, I do think like because of their defense, because of Garrett Wilson, because of Brice,

like I do think they have the ability to like fight and claw their way to the playoffs or whatever. Maybe they sign a veteran guy who's not that inspiring like a Colt McCoy or something. But a lot of that, to your point, like there were guys. like Garrett Wilson, who was like, we're pretty open about their frustration without necessarily saying his name. And, you know, I had a story that I reported receivers were like openly being frustrated behind the scenes and stuff. I think they're doing this now because they have to. Like during week two, you have to support this kid. It was not his fault. I think everybody in the room knew that. He did have some bad interceptions, but that was when the game was out of hand and he

was trying to make something happen. The offensive line was awful. So I think everybody knew that this wasn't his fault. Whereas you can remember last year, like those Patriots games were his fault. There was the one that led to like the disaster and everything where he didn't take responsibility after they had like two yards of offense and all that. And so that's why next week against the Patriots is kind of a big turning point for this

team. The team hasn't beat the Patriots in forever. So if he can not get killed by Bill Belichick, which young quarterbacks always do, that would go a long way. But yeah, I think ultimately, you know, the teammates are doing what they have to do right now because if you're not supporting him then this is going to be a long season. So if we keep going and get Rolfes and not getting the ball,

and they're not moving on the offense, and the defense starts doing their job better, and then they see the offense not doing their job again. It's just like a repeat of last year, only with the different offensive coordinator and at a time where there was optimism two weeks ago. And then you wrote last week, and this is interesting because I get the Jets stance. Like, we're going to back sack. Like, we're going to ride with this guy. He was a number two overall pick.

Hopefully the residue of spending five months with Aaron Rogers helps him. He seems like he's in a better place. But reality is they have a really good defense and ideally a pretty good run game and some weapons. Who's the quarterback in five weeks? Because you wrote, I think it was 19 different options. I probably covered half of them covering the Colts the last couple years. Matt Ryan, I'm sure Carson Wentz. Philip Rivers, hell, why not?

Gardner Minchie was on there, yeah. Gardner Mitchie, man, I don't think the Colts were going to gig him out. He's like the best backup you could have right now for a young pastor. Those were, some of those are more included because like Jets fans have been like naming certain guys. And it was more to be like, that's probably not going to happen. Yeah. And also that that's the issue that I think the Jets are probably running into or is that, you know, why are these teams going to give up their backup quarterback to help out another team unless you like blow them away with like,

like the colds clearly are, I think are a little better than people probably expected because of, because of Richardson. And you look at some of these teams like Jacoby Percette with the with Washington, Washington's kind of done pretty well. like the saints like are the why would they why would they just give up james winston so that's why you're stuck with the colt mccoy's the cars and wences you know they reached out to chad henny who diana russini reported said he was staying retired rather than come stand behind that offense one yeah can you blame them so it's it's not yeah exactly so it's not like i think they need to sign somebody else and to your point like it wouldn't shock me if that guy was playing at some

point this season and that's why you know maybe they should have brought back mike way it would have been hard to because you have erin rogers and you're paying zach wilson the number two of all pick salary, but Mike White was the perfect backup quarterback, and now they don't have him anymore, and now you're scrambling. They would love to have James Winston right now, or they would love to have Jacoby Resett. Who's the judge quarterback in five weeks, in six weeks? Is it Colt McCoy? Is that just, is that just a sad end of this sad season that was supposed to go differently? You know, it wasn't supposed to be Colt McCoy, who wasn't even in the roster. He was in Arizona. He was supposed to be a Hall of Famer. It's so hard to say. I think they want Zach to show

than that he can keep the job. And I think that's why they've been slow to sign somebody. They don't want to like dash his confidence as you go into this hard stretch. I wonder how much patience they're going to have. Yeah, exactly. So let me get you out of here on this. It's been an eventful week. Hopefully you get a little bit of time, even if it's a couple hours to just decompress after what you've covered. They win the opener. They know in the back of their minds it came at a huge cost. They get blown out in Dallas. Is Salah enough to keep them to because he seems like he's got that in him. He seems like they respect it.

And he's got one of those, you know, some coaches have it and some are just standing at the podium, spouting BS. He seems like from the outside, from my perspective, he's got that. I don't know if that looks like seven and ten or whatever, but I don't know if that's the point at this point with this team after what happened. But does this unravel or do they stay together? And what does the end look like? What does the Jets get from 2023 after what happened on the first night? Yeah, I think he did deserve a lot of credit for the way he held it together last year. You know, you look at what happened with Zach.

They had two guys request trades. Both guys are gone now, but two guys requested trades like during the season. One of them during a winning streak. They had a lot of injuries. And he still kept, like nobody was turning on each other. Like people were not happy with Zach Wilson and they expressed that. But there was nobody, there was no fights in the locker. There was nothing like that.

But now you're going and doing it all over again and you have to like keep it all together again. This is different. He's plugging up holes again. And then they're opening up in different places. And there's a new offensive coordinator. A lot of people that were brought here to be with him were also brought here because of Rogers. And so how does the rest of the locker room feel about Hackett?

I don't really know. Like, you know, new offensive line coach, he comes with a much different teaching method. And, you know, he's had some players in the past. He didn't love him. But by all accounts, he's been good so far. But yeah, anyway, so there's some new things while also like it feeling a lot like the same. So Salad is going to have to really batten down the hatches

and get through the season because if Aaron Rogers actually plans on coming back, I think that, you know, if you can get through the season and it's not a disaster, then that probably saves some people's jobs because you can have the hanged a carrot of errands coming back next year. That's what we were all planning for. Like, what do you expect? But if it's an absolute disaster, then, you know, I think at the end of the year, they have to have a conversation because they do have an impatient owner.

So, yeah, that's going to be one of the more fascinating things. Like, can they keep it together enough to where they're at least like competing and contending for the playoffs or whatever? And even if they don't make it, you can make the excuse that you lost your quarterback four plays in the season. Isn't that somewhat dangerous, though? That thinking, that hope? Yes.

One, because you're the Jets. Two, because it's dangerous if you're any team in the league and you think if you're just one guy away. Now, that guy being Aaron Rogers, but this is 39-year-old quarterback coming off in Achilles. That's a dangerous way to think about things. But then again, they're the Jets and they sold, you know, they put a lot into him so I could understand the thinking. We'll see how it goes, but I still think they're one of the more fascinating teams in the

league the rest of the year. I hope they are because it. It'll give me something right about. They do have talent on this team. That's the thing. Like they have these young guys, Saskarner and Breece Hall and Garrett Wilson. Like there's a lot of fun guys on this team.

And you just hope that it's like this, the season doesn't go to waste because of what happened in that week one. And that's why it all, it still doesn't even feel like as we move farther away from it. It just feels like I'm back in 2022. And it really does feel like all that excitement, which there was a lot, even just like,

you know, covering them and all the stories they were having me doing and all the plans we had and stuff like that. Like, I mean, I wrote an A1 story. I wrote an A1 story, Monday morning about how he has turned the Jets into believers.

And a day later, I'm not sure that they believe as much anymore. Right. How much different was training camp? Just the national media. I mean, it was probably just a buzz every single day. Yeah, it was definitely unique, especially the beginning. At the very beginning when everybody was there all the time, and on the days where people would maybe know that Roger was talking at the podium

or whatever, like you would see an insane amount of cameras. Week one, it got, was as busy. You know, I covered the Eagles. Their locker room was like that pretty consistently. But when Roger spoke before week one, that was as many cameras. I couldn't even get into the scrum because it was, like, surrounded in such a way that, like, I couldn't hear anything he was saying. I'm like, all right, I just hope he doesn't say anything too crazy.

That's wild. So, yeah, it was, it was cool. You know, as I said a lot, like, it was, I know Aaron Rogers is a controversial figure. And I would have people in my life be like, oh, man, that's going to be, that's going to be tough, huh? It's dealing with covering him. I thought it was awesome because, you know, you have a lot of people paying attention to everything you're writing and doing and stuff like that.

So I enjoyed it. And I'm curious to see what it looks like now. You know, the Jets are technically scheduled for, I think, four more primetime games. I'm curious to see if they'll get flexed out of them. But they did that, NFL did that with the intention of having Aaron Rogers being the quarterback. Good news is the Patriots look bad, man. They look like they got nothing, no identity on offense. And it wouldn't stun me if the Jets pull the upset.

I'm sure that would make Jets fans feel a little bit better if they were able to beat Belichick. Oh, yeah. That would be encouraging for Zach Wilson. but you've got one reader right here. I'm going to be following the rest of the way because they're just too damn interesting for me. I can't quit them. So, Zach, thanks for your time. I know it's been a busy week. I appreciate it and we'll catch up with you down the line. That sounds good, Zach. Thanks, man. And we're back with our Cincinnati Bengals writer, Paul Dana Jr. Let's start here, Paul.

I'm sure there's a lot of buzz, not in a good way about this football team this morning in Cincinnati. Here's how you led your story with after their loss to the Ravens. The Cincinnati Bengals have been here before. That's not to say it's good news for them. It's merely a fact. They were 0 and 2 last year in case you hadn't heard. Those words will be applied a lot over the next eight days as a soothing ointment on a wounded reality. They were 0.2 last year.

They were a couple of plays from the Super Bowl last year. How and why is this different? Because for me, from the outside, it looks like something is off. So it's different for a couple of ways. start with the one that everybody's talking about for good reason. Joe Burroughs right calf. There's no way around it. The fact that this wasn't just, okay, he's battling it, which he was.

And internally, they had a lot of confidence with where this injury was at. You know, they kind of got him through week one. It was awful conditions. Everything about it was terrible set up for what they wanted to do in Cleveland with the rain. use that one. Yeah. The field was wet. They didn't want him to be outside of pocket anyway.

And Cleveland was, it was, okay, fine. They got him through that. They felt after, you know, a week of practice that he really looked good, felt confident what they were doing. And then, really, the offense really found itself in this game. I mean, they looked really good once they got through another couple's slow drives early in the game. I mean, they moved the ball consistently.

They had a couple of bad plays in their red zone, but they moved the ball up and down. They converted in all the third manageable, which was a problem in the previous week. All the things that make them and Joe Burrow kind of who they are, where they're just so brutally efficient when they stay on track. And then you have the tweak at the end. And there's Joe Burrow in the post game.

This was not him saying, oh, yeah, I don't know, we'll see. This is, it was like we kept pushing. him with like, what about this? What about this? What about this? And every time he's like, I don't know, man. I don't know. He's like, it's really sore. They never say that. Like, they never admit that there's something serious. It was, it was, how is it, it's sore now? Okay, is this the first time you've tweaked it? Well, I'm still managing it. And this has been going on, there's been no definitive answers on this the whole time. It's been, it's good enough. I'm getting out there getting through it. And then we pushed them all the way to like, are you

concerned this is going to be an issue all season? And he's like, I don't know. Maybe it will be. And, you know, talking to doctors and things like that. You know how this stuff is. You are going to somehow have to manage this, these lower extremity things throughout the year, especially when you talk about somebody like Burrow, who his pocket presence, his ability to create on off script out of there is such a huge part of what he does and what makes the Bengals offense, that next tick better than so many. And they've kind of had to take that out of him because of this. And that's the concern now is what happens next with this, mentally, physically, their ability to eventually get Burrow to be more of that loose off-script player that makes him special outside of what he just is inside of the pocket. I'll be honest, man. I'm scarred from calf strains. And everybody in Indianapolis knows why. And when I heard this, a lot of the NFL people, you know, just three weeks, five weeks, whatever, he'll be ready. I remember Joe Burroughs statement a couple days before week one, I'm good to go.

But calf strains are very stubborn, man. Like, they are really stubborn. And I covered a franchise quarterback that it ended his career, for God's sake. As crazy as that sound, it was a calf strain. Now, this is not going to end Joe Burrough's career. But he doesn't look right. He doesn't look sharp. And they got it going yesterday.

But like you said earlier, like that lethal efficiency that they've sort of built their name on with Zach Taylor and Chase on the outside in Higgins, it seems to be missing. Is it fair to say this could be an issue the entire season unless they clean that up? And if it doesn't get fixed or remedied or healed, I mean, that's going to take him off the field for a couple of weeks. Where did the Bengals go right now at this moment? I mean, they go to the training staff. I mean, that's what it is. It's because I think, my opinion on it is this.

extract the calf issue out. I think they are in a better place by a long shot week three this year offensively than they were last year. Why? Because last year their offensive line was a train wreck at this point. Their offensive line protected well yesterday, I mean, really well. They were able to have Burrow just stand back in the pocket and wing it. And he had, you know, 18% pressure rate.

He moved the ball up and down the field over and over again. I mean, once they got past that first half. were limited possessions against a North team that knows them well and knows how to slow them down. And they were able to, you know, I thought it looked really good actually once it got going. And it felt like they officially knocked the rust off once they got to about the halfway point of this game. And so I think they're in a better spot. The line is more secure. I just, I just think that they know who they are more this year than they did last year,

where they were really having to fix things on the fly. And, you know, they did that in about round week four or five last year, and then they won 10 games in a row. I think they're in a better spot. But, again, it goes back to the CAF thing. If they can continue to have Burrow be okay and be able to play and manage his way through it, I think they can take off. They're about to get outside of the north, which is a big deal,

because these teams just know how to play against Burrow and get a run against a few easier opponents where they can maybe start to really get things rolling. I think they'll be fine offensively under the assumption that he can play at a decent amount of his normal health. That's a fair assumption, and I'm sure the minds of everybody in Cincinnati right now is the calf of their $275 million quarterback.

I'm getting that number right. That is correct, yes. But Burrow made an interesting point. He said when your quarterback misses can't, it's tough to start fast. But I do think, are you buying what Zach Taylor is, I don't want to say selling, but sane? I am. They're 0 and 2.

He says, look, it's a 17 game season. It's a 17 game season. And yeah, they're in the hole in the ANC North. But like you said, this team has the top end talent to just rip off eight or nine or 10 wins in a row like they did last year, assuming the calf is healthy. But to pivot, that wasn't the issue yesterday. The defensive line didn't look like the. the Bengals that I had seen in the past, and you have the numbers, 38 rushes for the Ravens, 178, 4.8 per carry, that is a little concerning, right? Because I know the Ravens are a unique

defend, right? I know they're a unique rushing attack, and they faced a really good one the week before in Cleveland. But that might be something that lingers for a couple weeks. Here's where it's different. I mean, is that last year I felt like they could still hang their hat a little bit on their defense earlier in the year. And this is the group that was supposed to be their strength. I mean, this is two weeks in a row. I mean, the Browns went over 200 last week and 5.2. And now that's Nick Chubb and it's the Browns and he's a mutter and all those things. Okay. And this is the Ravens and Lamar and the Ravens were without J.K. Dobbins. They're without their starting center. They're without Ronnie Stanley at left tackle. And they went out there and

and shoved it down their throats on multiple third downs. In Cincinnati. In Cincinnati. Say what you want. This Bengals defense has prided itself on being able to line up and stuff even the best rushing attacks in the league, whether it be Derek Henry or Nick Chubb last year. Look at some of the numbers. It's where they feel like they've always gained their advantage.

And that's not new. That's the same front seven that they've had the last two years that they have paid. and rewarded and extended, almost dang near all of them. And they added a bunch of draft picks in the background that are high draft picks to help be a part of this. So to get out there and this to have happened, they've had one game where they played their starters the last two years where a team has run for over 175 and 4.5. And it's happened in both games to start this season. This is not who they are, but this is the same players and the same coordinator and the same staff. So what's happening there?

There's no strained calf on that side of the ball. No, there's full health. They are full-throat Cincinnati Bengals defense, which has meant something, particularly in stopping the run and on third downs and goal to go where they have been unbelievably better than everybody else in football. 21% better than everyone else in football the last two years in goal to go situations in the second half. There aren't stats that anybody's 21%. But yet what happened yesterday? They were able to shove it in goal to goal.

They were able to punish them down low. And so something is disconnecting there defensively where they need to find answers. So when I look at this team going forward and the path out of O and 2, yeah, I'm talking about Burroughs. calf and everybody always wants to point to the offense because it was so ugly in Cleveland. I'm looking on the other side of the ball and wondering what's happening there because that was

supposed to be this team's strength up front and right now it's been a liability. That's concerning. This isn't the same thing, but I wonder, was there just a communal assumption that was a little too aggressive in the fact that Joe was just going to be okay? Like in all of August was everyone like, once Joe's back, we're just fine. We're the Bengals again. Was that a little too presumptive on their part? Did you buy into that? Did the city buy into that?

Did the team buy into that? And was that a mistake? I think that's a great question. And honestly, nobody really knows outside of those that are questioning it themselves inside of the building. I think that's a feeling you can have from the outside that is legitimate. I mean, this team... Yeah, I mean, if he's 75%, you're still taking him.

You're like, look, we've... We have started slow the last couple of years. Once we take, he did it last year with the appendectomy. This isn't even going to be so bad. And we're going to trot these guys out there and we're going to go win games because that's what we do. And the expectations are so high. And they just think that they're just going to roll out there. I think that is a presumption that you can make from the outside looking in.

Only they truly know if they felt that way. But it's certainly an easy thing to say in hindsight when you look at these last two games where they've gone out there. felt like or looked like a team that thought they should take the field and the other team was just going to shake in their boots and go get a dub. And that's just not what it's been. And to think

that it would be in this division with those two teams that have everything that they have to prove this year, you hope that's not the case. You know, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But yeah, you can see how you could feel that. I mean, they did what a lot of teams

did, Zach. I mean, a lot of teams do this. Now, they've all shifted these easy offseason. No one has shifted to a softer offseason than the Cincinnati Benas. This is a good point and this is relevant. They had, I mean, they had, I went and ran the numbers. They took basically the minimum you could of the OTA program. Okay. They went harder in camp, but they had to do it without their quarterback. So that scaled everything back offensively. And they weren't able to really kind of dig in to what you would want to dig into on that side of the ball. that creates a little bit of a, we'll just flip the switch, week one mentality. And that's impossible to do specifically against desperate division opponents like the Browns

and the Ravens are right now. That's a really good point. This is not the same situation, but I go back to 2008. In Indianapolis, Peyton Manning missed the entire preseason with a knee injury, a Bursa sack. Literally practiced three times before the opener, and this is Peyton Manning we're talking about. and he was trashed the first couple weeks, and they were trashed. They were three and four at one point. Now, of course, they won nine straight to close the regular season and make the playoffs,

and he was the league MVP. He's Peyton Manning. But like you just said, even Joe Burrow and Jamar Chase cannot just flip the switch in this league, like you said, against desperate division teams that know you well. I'll get you out of here on this. Let's say we talk in five weeks, where are the Bengals at? Because they could go in two different directions here. They got a lot of talent and hopefully he gets right.

But this might just be the year that it never clicks for them because he's not right with the calf and or they're just missing something. I think if he can play at the percentage that he has the last two weeks, which is clearly not 100, but enough where he can sit back there in the pocket and rip it, I think they win some. They go on a little run here. I mean, this is the schedule sets up for them. I mean, you're talking about Rams, Titans, Cardinals. some games that should be winnable, make hay stretch for them theoretically. If they don't, I mean, they've set themselves where they have to now. I mean, they just have to.

But they've been there before. Yeah, this is the time for them to straighten up. Assuming he can do that, I think they're in a good place to get right back into the mix and get right back around 500 when they hope that he can start to be closer to 100% himself and really get into the run of the season where they've been so good. I mean, he's, he, he, in December and January, they have just been a team that gets better. He gets better as he banks reps over the course of a season. That's been proven now over multiple years.

I think they can get to that point and be fine. But again, everything right now comes back to what is that thing. He said it needs a couple more sleeps. Well, I don't know if the city of Cincinnati is going to be getting much sleep while they wait for him to get those because everybody's waiting to see how it feels when they have to get. get out there potentially on Monday night football against Aaron Donald and the Rams. That is not fun for a reporter where you're just basically waiting for the injury news of the team's best player. But he's a good one. And we'll see where the, we'll see where the Bengals are

at in a couple weeks. Thanks, Paul. Have a good one and we'll say down the line, I'm sure. Looking forward to it. See, Zach. All right, we are welcoming in one of our two esteemed Giants beat riders, Dan Duggan. Dan, yesterday was wild. Did you get a chance to at what point did you realize what you'd seen? Because I remember walking out of stadiums after covering a lot of games and being like, you know, you go to the locker room, you write, and then like three hours after the game, you walk out and you're like, wait, what did I just see? At what point did you piece together what the Giants had just done, which I think is something

they haven't done in 70 years. I'll say I have a little training in this, though, because this team did this a few times last year. Not quite to this extreme, but I couldn't shake the feeling of deja vu in the second half yesterday because you go back to like the first five or six weeks the last season they were down double digits to tennessee in the opener obviously came back and won that in dramatic fashion they were down double digits to Baltimore to green bay and they just kind of follow the same script yesterday again it wasn't quite as dire last year um you know you don't want to be in 20 to nothing

hold and it was 28 to 7 midway through the third quarter but it just like it was just a feeling I had I'm like I don't think they're going to win this game but it's just like as the offense started rolling and you know at some point you feel like the defense just has to make a play a stop. Once they got one, it just kind of like, it was surprising. Don't get me wrong. The first six quarters of the season were as bad as, you know, it could be imagined. But there was, like I said, this feeling I'd seen this, you know, this core group do this before. And it just kind of started getting that feeling as it got rolling like, man, are they really going to do this? And obviously, everything has to go your way for that to be the case. And sure enough it was. And they pulled it out in

certainly dramatic and remarkable fashion. But yeah, not unprecedented for this group, big picture was. So let's go back to the bad first, because they were. were utterly embarrassed, 40 to zero at home in the opener to the Dallas Cowboys. That's a division game. Then they go down to the desert and they're down 20 to zero. So that's 60 to zero in their first six quarters of football in 2023. How did that performance, especially on offense, because they gave Daniel Jones $160 million. They gave Sequin a little bit more than the franchise tag was going to pay him. How did that performance square with everything you had seen from this team going back to training camp.

Like there's no way you expected them to play that poorly, did you? No, no, it was absolutely stunning. I mean, I'll kind of answer your question in a backwards way. The thing we, the offense we started in the second half is the offense I expected to see. The offense was really good all summer. I mean, the one preseason drive they had, granted it was against Carolina, I missed some of their starters, but they marched right down the field and it was easy.

Like Jones was picking the defense apart. You saw that in day in a day on training camp. The offense was looking really sharp. And I've covered Dana Jones out for five years. he hasn't had great training camps necessarily. Last year's training camp was horrible whereas they just threw the kitchen sink at him with with McBirondale's defense and he looked lost.

He flipped the table. And then he had his best year ever. Right, right. Interesting. So then you're like, oh, what did this mean? He was a great camp. He looks terrible through six quarters. But no, yeah, I did not see that coming at all. In the Cowboys game, you could almost dismiss. Like, obviously it was horrible, but it was... It was a little fluky?

Yeah, I mean, it blocked field goal, the interception through Sequin's hand for a touchdown. And then it just, the word down, years for that game with an avalanche and that's what it was. And it's pouring rain. And it's just like, you know, Dallas could just kind of, didn't have to really do anything, you know, funky in offense to give you a chance to make any takeaways. It just, it just completely got a hand. Don't know, it was an absolute beatdown. But the game yesterday was more concerning in the fact that you're going against a, you know,

a team that everyone expects to have the number one pick in the draft. And you have, you're coming on the heels of that opening performance to come out like that was stunning. You know, I mean, it would be one thing if that was a close game all the way throughout. to fall that deep in the hole out of the gate with everything that was kind of hanging on the team coming in. That was shocking. And again, you know, you're talking 60 and nothing to six quarters. There was no way to proceed that type of turnaround.

I'm sitting there thinking, like, I've covered a lot of bad seasons. If they fall to 0 and 2 with the loss of the Cardinals, the 49ers on deck on a short week, this is going to be one of those long seasons. And, you know, it's like I've been here for the second year of coaches has been cursed. No coach in my time. It's 2016 that's seen a year three. You figure Brian, Brian Dave was the longest runway of Maddenal. to the year, want to play against his first year.

Right, right. If they start going 0 in 3, 0 and 4, like, you'd start saying, oh, my goodness, here we go again. This is Ben McAdode 2.0. So at the very least, they've at least saved that off for a few weeks and kind of restored some order. I mean, listen, it can get out of hand again with Thursday, Texas, Francisco, but if they lost this game in Arizona, especially in a blowout, I mean, it would have been

a five-alarm blaze. That's a hard game to explain to your bosses if you lose to a team. Like, you wrote in your story, that is literally the favorite, the heavy favorite, to earn the number one overall pick. And the way it was unfolding early was like, I was like, what the hell are the Giants doing? Let's transition it to the other question. And I want to get your sense of what it's like in New York, New Jersey area right now

around the quarterback. So they give him this huge extension. From the outside, a lot of people say that's way too much. He needs the pieces around him to be a good quarterback. What's the conversation like right now, two games in around Daniel Jones? Because I've been on both sides of it because watching yesterday early and I'm like, this guy's not it. And then he did what he did in the second half.

And they don't do that without him, without his mobility, without his plays. And like you wrote, he made some great throws. It's just hard to come down on a conclusion either way with this guy. What's the vibe where you're at and with the fans and the team and the players around Daniel Jones? I mean, it's funny. There's really going to be like a line of demarcation, at least for now, the first six quarters and the last two.

Because, I mean, you're on Twitter, you know, you follow some. Giants fans and stuff. And everyone's like looking at, you know, Caleb Williams sweepstakes. I mean, that's how bad it looked. And like, hey, we can get out of Dana Jones contract in two years. Wow. That's fast in New York. Yeah.

That's how New York goes, though. And listen, there is still very much skepticism around Daniel Jones, around the contract, around all of that. And certainly the play early on the season validated those concerns. But, I mean, the way he played in that second half, I mean, he carried the team on his shoulders. I mean, there was absolutely no margin for error. I mean, there's all those stats that always come out of the game.

the first NFL quarterback to do like this, this, this and this. They're always like funky, like made up numbers. But his were pretty legit. I mean, it was like however many yards passing he had, like over 50 yards rushing. You know, it's all like legit. It wasn't like his QBR or his completion percent. It was all like big time stats. And he had a kind of historic second half.

And again, there was no margin for error. They scored touchdowns in the force four drives. Obviously, the game when he field goal to finish it. And he was flawless. I mean, hitting Jalen Hyatt on a bomb to start the second half, making plays with his legs left and right. I mean, he just got a-wold involved. Yeah, he just got into rhythm.

And it was like, that's the guy who, again, you saw it all summer. It's also the guy that Joe Shane and Brian Dable felt comfortable writing a check for, you know, $160 million to. And listen, that contract, even in the time since he signed it, has gone down as far as where it ranks among NFL quarterbacks. I think it's like 10 or 12 now as far as being highest paid. And that's probably about where you think he is as a quarterback. But there still feels like there's a floor that's lower than that. And obviously, if you're the Giants, you feel like there's a ceiling. you feel like there's a ceiling that's higher than that.

And really, through two games, we've kind of seen both extremes. Like, it was like, I'm not joking. There are people like, we got to pull the plug. It was a mistake. Like, start looking ahead. And then obviously you come out of that second half. And like, no, this is the guy. I mean, like, the way he played in that second half, like, this is who you want to build around.

So it's remarkable. We've seen both extremes in such a short period of time. And obviously, it'll play out over the course of the season. But yeah, through two games, it's been quite a wild ride. They can't live like that. I mean, they just can't keep living like they have been the first two weeks of the season. Yeah, they're one and one and nothing really matters other than they're one and one. It doesn't matter how you get there.

What's Daniel Jones like as a guy? Like he doesn't seem like he's super fiery. He's not a guy that's going to light into teammates on the sideline. Cerebral, like how does that factor into their decision? Because they didn't give him this money unless they believe in him. In the play on the field, like we just talked about, you could make an argument either way. So like what was the thing that pushed them over? the line because it feels like he's a guy who needs he needs like a saquan in the backfield he

needs like the weapons around him and that's not always going to be the case with saquan with the running back future so like what makes them convinced he's the guy when the when the field tells us both things it seems like every sunday yeah i mean i've always and i've kind of been a i'll say daniel jones kind of skeptic the last couple of years uh i understood why they gave the contract i don't think they had a better option i think it makes sense and you could have made a case Maybe they should have franchise tag him. But, like, I don't think he's, I'll say this too. I don't think he's going to have a terrible year.

So it's like your franchise tagging, you're probably in the same spot next year. So I guess have a little conviction, you know, free up some cap space to give him a better supporting cast this year. But as far as, you know, what makes you comfortable giving that money, like, again, as a guy who has been a skeptic, like, his intangibles are off the charts. Like, I mean, it's a lot of stuff's cliche first and last out. But you hear it so much and so people say it with such conviction, like it's not just always a hard worker. Like he does. Yeah. As a reporter, you can tell if it's BS.

Yes. And he does everything right. Like, I mean, he's handled everything from day one. I mean, there's a lot of times where, you know, he gets called like an Eli Manning clone in this market. But even you go back to the sticky situation he had to navigate with Eli Manning where he came in, you know, Eli is the starter and gets Yanke two games into Jones's rookie year. Jones takes over and they have a great relationship.

And Eli, I've talked him recently about it. And he said he has never felt any resentment because of the way Jones has just kind of always carried himself. And I think, you know, as a as a player. and the way Eli conduct himself, he respects the way Jones works hard and its first and last out and all that. But no, he is like, he's just off the charts with the intangeloves, works hard, smart. You know, he doesn't show any personality whatsoever publicly, but he's one of those guys we're here in the locker.

Have you ever seen him laugh? Is he just like that buttoned up? He is. But it's a thing you also see a lot in this field where teammates, oh, but behind the scenes, he's a little different. I mean, he is a little more motive, I would say the last couple years. Like, you know, he had a touchdown run yesterday. and then another one like a call back.

And he was fired up after that. Like I think he gets going in a positive way. But he'll never like, you know, yell at a teammate or show anybody up. Like there was one play last year where he threw interception to Marcus Johnson. Some like, you know, end of the bench wide receiver. And Jones like just yelled on the field. I can't remember exactly what he said. And he apologized after the game publicly.

I mean, it was like a heat of the moment. He's just yelling like out of frustration about, you know, like it's a fourth now play, whatever it was. And he apologized. That kind of sums up how he is as a teammate. But yeah, no, so all of that stuff off the charts. So that's why you feel comfortable. Like he's going to be model citizen, good leader, all that.

It's just the play is the question. And, I mean, again, you see flashes of it the second half yesterday. Like, man, if you can combine that with all those intangibles, you might have something here. I think, yeah, that's the funny conversation is like, that's probably the right approach in New York. Now, you're there every day. But like, with the, I imagine the media scrums are enormous. And every day with the jets and the giants. And it's just being like this, just being even keel the entire time is probably the right approach.

But this season has not been, you know, a reflection of just like sticking with consistency. I'm curious, this might be hyperbole, but maybe not. Like, what was the vibe like in the locker room yesterday after the game? They come back. It had to be an exhausting emotional roller coaster for these players. And I don't want to say it saved their season, but it might not be that much of a stretch. What was the vibe like and what were the players telling you? Because usually after a game like that, they are brutally honest.

Yeah, I would say it was a little, I wouldn't say it was subdued, but it was more kind of subdued than I expected. They weren't like, you know, oh, we're back and like this and that. Because I think there was probably some understanding that like it was. You don't say that after you beat the Cardinals. Yeah, yeah. So I think they, you know, we could hear we're waiting for Daible in the press conference which was like adjacent to the locker room.

And you could hear it was very lively in the five to 10 minutes before he came in, music blaring. He was screaming. Like they were, they were definitely feeling good. after that game. But I think they were, like I said, they're kind of smart not to play that up too crazy with us.

I mean, I think the feeling you kind of get is like, this is who we are. Like, we knew this as we were. Like those first six quarters weren't us. Like, you know, so now again, there'll be so much to probably be gleaned from the Thursday night game because they're going to be big underdogs

going to San Francisco. They might not have the left tackle Andrew Thomas again. They almost certainly won't have Sequel and Barclay. So they're going to go in there. I think they're already 10 point underdogs. So if they, you know, you know,

they just fight and claw on that game. Then I think you will say, okay, this team kind of has what it takes, has some of the DNA that had last year that obviously has helped them overachieve. But then they won't get blown out in San Francisco. This, this, you know, comeback will be a footnote. So I think they did a good job of not getting carried away, not like any I told you so or anything like that, because any criticism that was levied at this team at halftime of yesterday's game was completely warranted. So I think that they

did a good job not getting carried away with any of that type of stuff. Glass half empty reporter. Those are always the best ones because they keep it real with the fans. Last thing, before I get you out of here and let you enjoy a little bit of the West Coast this week, what's this team look like without Sequin? I feel like he's such an instrumental piece to that offense and to the quarterback. Sounds like the early reports are. It's a sprained ankle, but on a short week, it's almost impossible to see him playing. What's this team look like and how much of a step down is that? Because he's as valuable as probably any running back in the league.

Yeah, I know. It's funny. I've made this point, you know, the Giants and the NFL. world kind of spent all off season undervaluing him like you know you don't deserve this big contract you know like you know get the franchise tag good point and then as soon as the season started he's as valuable as possible so that that's the juxt position that makes it very difficult for guy in his shoes like all right you tell me um um not that value you need me on sundays i know you do he played this is a running back he played all but one snap he got hurt on the second the last

snaps he missed obviously the last snap of the game he played every other snap but one in the game that I mean, that's incredible. I mean, that doesn't happen. I mean, they drafted a running back in the fifth round. You think they're going to get other guys' reps. He played every, let's just say, he played every snap in the game. That alone demonstrates his value. I mean, you think about the touchdown.

He scored. There's third goal from the nine. He catches the past. How many guys make that play? No, and that's the thing. Like, that's the thing. And listen, I'm a big, like, oh, running backs don't matter guy. Like, you can plug anybody in and you can rush for 80 yards.

Nobody else on the roster can make that play. I mean, that was remarkable. That's why he is, you know, a cut above. That's why he thinks he deserves a lot more money than the Giants want to pay him. So yeah, listen, if he's out of the lineup for any amount of time, it's going to drastically change this team. I mean, he's so important. Like, now, maybe you can buy for a game or two.

And like you said, the initial reports seem to be it's not a major injury. And again, I think San Francisco is a tall task. Not against San Francisco's defense. Yeah, I mean, that's a tall task whether he's in the lineup or not, for being honest. Yeah. You know, then they have like an 11-day breaks. Then they play week four, Monday against Seattle. Again, we don't know the timeline yet.

I will say, though, he has not come back well from injuries in the past. Like, obviously, he had the ACL, but he's also had a high ankle sprain in his second season. He had a low ankle sprain the year after the ACL. And if you go back and look, his handful of games coming back from injury, it takes him a little while to kind of regain form because he's such an explosive dynamic player. So when he doesn't have that, you know, in full tilt, he's not the same guy. So this, you saw him slam the helmet down on the sideline, I'm sure. I mean, the frustration is real there because, you know, there's a lot of elements to it. he's upset that he's hurt.

He's upset that he probably can't play for a week or two, whatever. He's upset because how this is going to probably affect his earning potential because this is kind of the knock on running back to they get hurt. So there's a lot of elements to it. But yeah, no, I mean, as far as his impact on the team, you know, whatever happened off the field contract-wise, there's no denying his value to the team. And again, he just makes plays that Map Rita is not going to make,

you know, when he's in the lineup on Thursday night. I hate seeing that when a guy is in a contract year, for lack of a better phrase, and gets hurt and doesn't get to, do their thing. And the double-edged short is we might see Sequin's value even more in the next couple weeks when they don't have him on the field. And I know he doesn't want to do that. He wants to be on the field. But that's the reality. And it could be really rough, especially against San Francisco's defense, which looks really, really good. Dan, thanks so much, man. Enjoy the weather in a couple days out there on the West Coast. Short week for you, but we got Giants, 49ers Thursday night.

That's going to be a good one. Thanks, ma'am. I appreciate it, Zach. All right. That's it for week two of Kiefer in the Beats. A huge thank you to Zach Rosenblatt in New York, Paul Dana Jr. in Cincinnati and Dan Duggan in New York for sparing some time on a very busy Monday in between flights home and press conferences and chasing injury news. Appreciate those guys and all their insight. Thank you for you guys listening. Robert and Nate will have a full slate of shows the rest of the week. Plus we'll have the GM podcast with Mike Sando and Randy Mueller on Thursday as always. And then we're on to week three.

We'll catch up with you guys next week. This was the Athletic Football Show.