The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Keefer and the Beats: Jake Browning gives the Bengals hope, the Lions recent issues, and Zach Wilson's wild week

Episode Date: December 12, 2023

In the Week 14 edition of Keefer and the Beats, Zak Keefer digs into the Bengals' resurgence with Jake Browning at QB with Paul Dehner, Jr.; the Lions' late-season skid and the worries that are growing in Detroit with Colton Pouncy; and Zach Wilson's return to the starting lineup for the Jets with Zack Rosenblatt. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome back to the athletic football show. This is that keyfer here to dig into week 14 across the NFL. We got to start in Dallas, where the Cowboys, in my opinion at least, have never looked better in the Dack Prescott era. I still got to beat San Francisco when it matters, and they might have to in January. But to me, the Cowboys have the look and feel right now of a legitimate Super Bowl contender. Now, I know how dangerous a statement that is to make, considering they haven't reached the NFC championship game since the 1995 season, but that team is rolling right now. They owned Philly, Philly team tie atop the NFC, Philly, Sanfran, and Dallas, all 10 and 3 with 4 to go.

In the AFC, Kansas City, Cadarius Tony forgot that you have to line up on sides before the snap, and the Chiefs have suddenly dropped 3 of 4. They don't look right. The offense isn't humming like it usually is. Patrick Mahomes is throwing tantrums on the sideline. The receivers are costing them week after week, and it's very much looking like Mahomes will be playing the first road playoff game of his career come January. For the first time in the Mahomes era, the Chiefs, they just look flawed and eminently beatable right now. Below them, the AFC wildcard race is an absolute mess.

Six teams right now are seven and six and in the thick of it, and we'll dig into one of them, the Cincinnati Bengals, today with our beatwriter Paul Dainer Jr. in Cincinnati. Everyone thought the bengal season was done, myself included, the minute Joe Burrow was done. And then Jake Browning steps in, wins two of his first three starts, and throws for a completion percentage of almost 80. Wild stuff going on right now in Cincinnati. And Paul has some great insight from around the building behind the scenes about what's going on with the Bengals and if they have a legitimate shot to find their way into the playoffs. without their franchise quarterback. From there, we'll head up north to Detroit where the Lions are reeling.

They've dropped two in a row, including an embarrassing 28 to 13 loss yesterday to the Bears. Anytime you lose to the Bears by double digits, that's a really bad day. Something's not right in Detroit. And I think there's this trepidation building because of the franchise's history about what the next couple of months might look like. Now Lions players are saying things like this after the game. I feel like we've lost our swagger and our confidence. That's not a good sign. That's not what you want to hear a month before the playoffs.

And with Detroit looking for its first division title since 1993 and their first postseason victory since 1991, they got a long way to go before they get to the playoffs. Finally, what a week in East Rutherford, where Zach Wilson stepped back into the starting lineup after initially having some reservations and played his best game of his career. Inside all that went on with the Jets and some Amherstores.

Aaron Rogers' conversation as well, of course, with our Jets writer, Zach Rosenblatt, who has been on it all season and what's been a wild year for the New York Jets. All right, Kiefer in the Beats, Week 14 edition, let's jump in. All right, from Cincinnati, Ohio, our Bengals writer, Paul Dana Jr. Paul, how you doing? Doing good. What's up, Zach? I'm good. We've got some rewinding to do. Let's go back. I was in town for Houston, Cincinnati in mid-November, and things were so different for the Bengals. The Bengals were on a four-game winning streak. Joe Burrow was really hitting his stride. I remember talking to a buddy in town before the game,

and he was like, Joe Burrow has changed how Cincinnati views itself. There was so much optimism, right? All the injury stuff early on and the Bengals slow starts, everything was history, and they were about to really take command of the NFC North, AFC North. And everything went sideways. They lost that game. He got hurt on Thursday night football a couple days later.

later, three-game losing streak. And yet here we are, mid-December, talking about a Bengals resurgence. They're very much alive in the AFC playoff picture. How did we get here? I mean, it's a wild scenario. It was 25 days ago now that I was in Baltimore watching Joe Burrow do the two movements that I thought would define the season. And that was him trying to throw on the sideline and realizing he couldn't and going to the crouch on the ground. And you thought, well, there's the image of the 2023 Bengals, right?

That's what everyone will remember about this team. And then they tried to give the old college try rally around Jake thing. And they went out against Pittsburgh. And Pittsburgh exposed that plan. You know, it looked awful. And he looked like a backup. and it made everybody wonder why they didn't invest more in the backup quarterback position and fingers were being pointed and draft picks were being counted towards and it was that full

thing and so then what's now happened the last two weeks you just could not have seen coming because it's not like Jake Browning lit up the world in camp it's not like there was some long history. I mean, early in the season when Joe Burrow had his calf thing, I mean, he went out there and took a major risk a couple of weeks playing on it because he was so worried about

the team falling to 0 and 3, 0 and 4, whatever, and that's why he went out there and they didn't turn to Jake Browning in that situation. That's where the level of confidence was. And so, for then these two weeks to happen, where

he doesn't just look like a competent quarterback. The last two weeks, he's arguably been the best quarterback in the league. This is crazy. He can't throw it in completion. His completion percentage is like almost 80%. And he's not like throwing it 15 times a game. No, this is not, and it's not necessarily conservative. I mean, they have found ways certainly to get him easy completions, but he's completed balls down the field. He's been really pinpoint in the intermediate. He's utilized his weapons. The Bengals have sort of catered the offense to him in a way that makes you say, maybe this should be kind of a permanent catering, even when Joe Burrow returns next year in the way they've done

things more under center, using play action, utilizing the running backs in the screen game. and it makes you say, look, this team is average in almost three points per drive over the last two weeks. This was the best two-game stretch of offense they've had. Forget whoever the quarterback is. And so in this AFC, you know, anybody's got a chance to be in there, to be relevant. So to think that we're here where we were a couple of weeks ago, I just, you know, know, I love stories like this. I know you, you know, you're a storyteller at heart in this business a lot of times. And the Jake Browning story is just, it's the stuff sports are made

of. It's why you like sports. It's what you care about. And so watching it play out the last couple of weeks has just been fun. From an observer's perspective, it's been fun to see this guy have this moment. It's the unexpected that is so fun. I would assume that since a Natty's expectations for 2023, in their minds at least, the city of the town, the fans, died that night in Baltimore, right? With the wrist. Yeah. And here we are.

And rough first game against Pittsburgh, and then he stuns everybody in the Jacksonville game. And then they backed it up yesterday with a big, resounding win over the Colts, who were another AFC contender. What did you know about Jake Browning before this? Like you said, you've seen him in camp. But again, like, how much do you talk to the backup? quarterback. How much do you even watch the backup quarterback, right? Like, I've been there.

Well, a lot this year. And then when it gets to the game, you're like, what is this guy made of? Yeah. So a lot this year, because remember, Burrow missed all of camp. Yeah. And so, this backup quarterback battle between Jake Browning and Trevor Simian was kind of all we had to watch. And

we talked about, I remember using the word fraudulent, how fraudulent camp felt. Like, does any of this matter? You can't judge the defense. You don't know how you're judging the offense. The quarterback play looks stupid. None of it made sense. And so it was the type of thing that made you say,

they need to be looking elsewhere. This ain't it, right? Who is Jake Browning? But then he sort of improved as it went on and won the job pretty handily because they liked the ascension they'd seen from him. But here's the thing about Jake Browning that I can't get past with his story,

that I love about sports. And you don't always get these stories. the one where he was cut three times by the Minnesota Vikings, their opponent this weekend, by the way, as an undrafted quarterback who broke a million records at Washington, right? And thought in between each one of those cuts was not going to be pushed off his mark. You know, he still believed in himself

that he could get a chance and make the most of it in this league. And so he would go. And in the off seasons, he would find some quarterback training. I know my weaknesses. I got to work on this. Let's figure. So he would go to get more power on his arm because his arm wasn't strong enough. So he'd find a way to get more RPS.

He got the nickname Jakey Spin Rate off that one. And so then he would go to a different guy. And he went with Jordan Palmer out there for a little while when he finally met Burrow. And they went out there together. And he said he was always looking to reinvest in himself. in any way possible after all of these setbacks, after everybody that told him no, he continually said, yeah, but I still believe in me,

and I'm going to keep trying to do this. After he got cut by the Vikings a third time in 21 and not put on their squad, their P squad, he went back to Seattle and was hanging out there, and for five days had to figure out what he was going to do next. He called some of his former coaches, who were prominent head coaches in college, and he was planning to drive down to Oregon State

to become a coach with his former coordinator that Thursday. Wow. That's how close he was. That Tuesday before, two days before that, the Bengals called. Said, hey, we have a practice squad spot if you want to try out.

And he came and he got it. And he's stuck around here for two years. But here's the kicker, Zach. And I'm going to go long-winded on this because it's unbelievable. Then he gets to Cincinnati, and he is an absolute, like, forgotten person. But he decides, I think I can, you know, I can make an impact here.

He starts sitting in on all the defensive meetings to try to help them see things through a quarterback's eyes. Any help he can give there. He's working with like anything he can behind the scenes. He starts to cultivate a relationship with Burrow. He really earns the trust of everybody in the building and friendship really, despite the fact that he's a nobody on this team. He's a practice squad quarterback that nobody's really thinking about. Teams try to kind of pluck him at the end of last year and the Bengals give him some, you know, complimentary game day activations to increase his checks a couple times because they did want to keep him around and they finally gave him a shot. And he continued to do that investing in himself and hoping that one day he'd finally get a chance. And so for it to come now and for him to do this and have the Bengals view. viewing themselves in this season differently. It's unbelievable. His story to reach this point.

It's the little moments that lead up to the big ones. And I love this in your story. I think it was this week in Bengals last week. But after the Pittsburgh game, didn't play great, came in with a list of things he wanted to fix. And I think he gave it to his QB coach. Yeah. That's the kind of stuff that stands out.

And that's like the little, you know, we use the word intangibles all the time. But like that level of awareness and accountability, there's a reason that he's had these two games back to back played well. It's because of that, because of the identification of what went wrong in Pittsburgh. In every conversation I've had over the last 25 days or whatever, you know, on off the record, wherever, the word, the phrase self-aware comes up more than any other. He just, he understands who he is and where his strengths and weaknesses lie and how to analyze them

in the moment. He's insanely smart in that regard from a football. sense of really seeing that and being really to look at that in itself. And so to move from what happened against Pittsburgh to what happened against Jacksonville and now also in the win over in Indianapolis, that trait really stood out to them of him being able, you know, Dan Pitcher said that, like it's in the story where he said, I come in, that's how I like to approach this, is here's a list of five things that we can specifically either through scheme or through practice or whatever work on. And he showed up for that meeting and Browning already had the list.

He was already ready for that and he already knew what he wanted to do and how to cater things to himself and just felt more comfortable. Yeah. And that's how a plan evolves. You know, he said that first week against Pittsburgh was the first time in his week as going through the game plan as a starter. And he said he just kind of gave it to the coaches and said, you know, whatever you say goes, I don't know. The second and third week, he could say, I have a better feel of what I want of how we can make it look. And the coaches did too. And the fact that he was so self-aware to understand that helped them put a plan together

that has really leaned more into his strengths. And you see that now, I mean, where he just completes every ball and they've found a lot of things in this offense that they didn't have before. Completes every ball. It's 79.3 completion percentage and 114 pass-er rating, which is crazy. It's always fascinating to me how a friend. franchise handles an injury to the franchise quarterback, right? Does everything fall apart? You're going to see how good the coach is, how good the quarterback coaches, how good the O.C. is, all that.

Burrow, as indispensable as he is, and he's right up there with the top five or six in the league in terms of guys you can't lose. And yet here we are. My question is, what have we learned about Brian Callahan, the O.C? And specifically, Zach Taylor, because maybe there was a narrative out there that Burrow got good and the Bengals got good and Taylor was along for the ride. You're there every day. You talk to the players. You talk to the people in the building. They're doing something that no one expected, at least the last couple weeks, that says a lot about Zach Taylor that maybe a lot of people didn't know about.

Yeah. I mean, I've kind of felt like it's been a little unfair because Burrow is so franchise changing and such a game changing figure that anybody associated with it gets no credit. Right? Like they don't deserve anything. It's all Burrow walking on wall. pulling everyone with him. And that's not fit because when you really look, you know, they have catered it that way. They have taken this offense and said, we want it to be Joe Burrell.

Let's put it in his hands. And that is a intentional decision that they've made. And a lot of coaches in this league, by the way, don't do that with star quarterbacks. And we see how some of that goes. It doesn't always work out. And so, but they have found that we know how he wants to run. We want him to feel like he has control. We want it to feel like his offense.

And so they have. They made it his, and it has certainly worked to large extent. But to that respect, they don't care about the credit, but they're not getting it. Last year, midway through the season, they really changed the way they were operating offensively, where they went. They learned who their personnel was. They switched from the zone to this downhill shotgun run gap scheme that really unlocked everything in their offense. It was a total change from what they thought where they were going to be.

They hit it mid-stride and took off and they won 10 in a row before losing in the AFC championship game. So here you see it again where they have changed what they're doing. They're under center and using play action more often and kind of leaning into Jake Browning's strengths, throwing to the running backs,

the screen game taking off, all of that stuff. That's a little bit more of a fit. Yes, get him out of the pocket, rolling out all of those things. They have shifted on the flow. to, and now they've made it work. I mean, they're a top five offense last couple of weeks, 34 points to two games in a row.

And so that, you know, that's not, that is the kind of the same stuff that they've been doing before as far as adjusting on the fly. But now maybe they get the attention and a little more of the credit for it because it isn't all just automatically going to burrow. I mean, Callahan, Taylor, Dan pitcher, all of these, you know, guys. Frank Pollock has won offensive line

has been involved in a lot of the run game changes that they've made have all kind of had their hands in it and I think finally this is kind of the opportunity for them even though they wouldn't view it that way they view it like they're still just making decisions or trying to make

the offense go in the best way possible for the whole team but now they get the attention where now you see it more because it's obvious that this is their chance and those guys you know I mean Dan Pitcher had interviews to being off OEC last year and essentially turned it down in Tampa Bay. And Callahanis had interviews for multiple head coaching jobs.

I think this is going to be, this could be actually what puts them over the top in those interviews when they come around next cycle. Winning is going to be satisfying no matter how it happens in this league, as hard as it is to win consistently. But winning like this has to mean a little bit more for a coach, like you said, because you love it when you're counted out. And I think everybody out there on my hands raised counted the Bengals out the minute Joe Burrow was done for the season. But if you look at the closing stretch, it's very enticing.

Three of the four teams they're going to play are on backup quarterback, starting with the Vikings this week. Then they get the rematch with the Steelers. Then they will play the Chiefs. That'll be a tough one. But the Chiefs aren't playing great right now, and they'll finish with Cleveland.

And they're one of, I don't know, a hundred teams in the AFC right now that are seven and six. There's a quote I want to go back to. And I heard this years ago, we've all seen the backup come in and have a couple of good games, one good game, two good games, whatever. The quote is, the longer they play, the more you see who they really are. Yeah.

Are we going to see that over the next couple weeks, or how do they keep this going? Because it's going to get harder. Teams are going to get more film on Jake Browning, and things always seem to level out after a while. How do they keep it from leveling out and just keep this hot street going? We'll probably see a different version this weekend when they play the Vikings, whose defense has just been a wrecking crew. They're going to blitz the hell out of them. Yeah, and exactly.

And, you know, it's amazing under, you know, not pressured the last two weeks. Browning is 42 of 46 for 498 yards. Those four in completions are two batted passes, a drop, and the pick against the Colts. That's it. But when teams have pressured him, he's had a couple nice plays. A touchdown to Chase in Jacksonville, the 76-yard of the people might. remember from the money at football game, but he's been more at 50% rate. You got to get to him.

Credit the Bengals offensive line, which is one of like maybe the only one still fully healthy out there right now, despite as maligned as they've been. They still have the same five-starters from opening day. Yeah, I mean, there's not many out there, and that makes a difference. They've been able to keep him clean, and he's been able. So I think as teams recognize, you can't just let him sit back there and think you're going to confuse him in your secondary. You've got to get after him and maybe blitz him more.

that can be different. I expect the Vikings to do it. They're first in points per drive since week six. Their first in red zone percentage since week six. Their first in touchdown percentage allowed since week six. The Colts and the Jags, by the way, not high on those lists. And so there's the degree of difficulty increases. The Steelers are the next week.

The degree of difficulty returns from his first one, which will be an interesting one when they play them. And so I expect it to be harder, but it hasn't felt fraudulent. Like, it's not like we've sat here. here and watched him and said, boy, he's not making any of the tough throws. It's not true. The eye test matters. You've seen enough football to know like when it doesn't, when it feels fluky. And we've all seen that. But I watched the game here said, I'm like, he belongs. He's fine. Like. Yeah. And they always knew it was going to be everybody else needing to help lift him.

And they've gotten that. You know, their defense looked a lot better. They only gave up one offensive score yesterday. And more resembled the unit they expected to have you, you know, T. Higgins on the deep ball adjusts over the other shoulder and catches the one long, long pass of the day. And they've gotten these running backs to create this screen game that's suddenly an unstoppable weapon after it was maybe the worst play in their arsenal for the previous three years. I mean, Chase Brown hits 22 miles per hour. He's the second fastest ball carrier in the NFL this year. Not even Tyreek Hill has gone that fast.

And they just started playing him. You know, they feel like they've gotten some stuff there. So there's ways where, yeah, they're doing new things, but none of it has felt like, you know, it's just going to blow up or it's gadgety necessarily. They're doing a lot of things right. And they're going to have to win some tough games in order to find a way out of that seven and six muck. But I would expect to see him continue to play pretty well. I really do. I don't think there's anything about the.

way he's doing it that feels ready to be exposed. I mean, 166 yards from Brown in the last two games, you watch him yesterday, that dude is, like you said, he's fast, slippery. Him and Mixing, that's working. Like that punch, counter punch, different skill sets. And then you said, you're like, you forget about Chase. You forget about Higgins. Those guys are making plays. The Bengals, again, are heating up in December. It's just a different quarterback this time. But it looks like they're at least going to be in that race down the stretch. And they've got some winnable games, but you said, you know, the defenses they're going to face are going to be challenging. Minnesota, Pittsburgh, Kansas City's got the best defensive of the Mahomes era.

And then I think Cleveland's got the best events in the league, and that'll be Week 18. So if they get in, they're going to have earned it. And Jake Browning's going to be a lot more of a popular name around Cincinnati than he is right now, and he's already pretty popular. So here we go. It's going to be fun. I didn't think we'd be talking about the Bengals after Joe Verro got hurt. But here we are, and that's the fun part about sports, like you said. Yeah, it should be great.

Inevitably, Zach, though, what we said when Burrow went down is probably still true. Luana Rumo is going to be the one that's going to have to get them into the playoffs. You know, if you're talking about sneaking on in, you know, that schedule, it now sets up for the defense to be the one that helps carry them with a young group that's been kind of evolving and been maligned this year. They can be the one to help put them over the top, which was probably always going to have to be the case when Burrow went down. But now it just looks like he's going to have a lot more help on the other side than they thought. I mean, the good news is every week there's a new AFC quarterback that goes down. Like so many of these contenders are playing with, I mean, the Browns are on their fourth creditback. You know, the chargers are out of it, but Herbert's down.

And really Lamar and two are the, maybe I'm missing some of the only ones that are like really healthy. So, well, Mojoms, but we'll see. It's going to be fun. We'll see if the Bengals can stay relevant, can stay in it. But thanks for hopping on, Paul. No problem. Thanks, Zach. All right, from the great state of Michigan, Colton Pouncy, our Detroit Lions,

beatwriter. And my goodness, Colton, the conversation we're about to have is a lot different than the last one we had. But that's how this works. That's how football works. I don't want to say that's how Detroit Lions football works, but we will get there. Let's start with the headline and your story from yesterday. They lost to the Bears, and it wasn't close. And that's bad. The headline is the Lions are regressing and running out of time to turn things around. And you wrote that the Lions, now they're nine and four, have lost two of their last three, but it could easily be four of their last five or four in a row. We haven't seen their best stuff in quite some time. What's different about this team from two months ago? Yeah, you know, when they first

got on this run, they started off five and one, and I think you had to feel good about that start. The offense looked the same as last year, and I think some of the new pieces that they worked in like Sam LaPorta and Jamir Gibbs were looking good. The defense, they added some new pieces, you're like, all right, this is finally the year that they take that step forward. Finally a year where even if they're in the middle of the pack, I think you'd have to be pretty excited about that, pair with that offense. But they've really regressed on both sides of the ball since then, starting with the defense. This is a unit that just can't generate pressure, can't, you know, get home with sacks.

Aidan Hutchinson has, I think he's third in the league in pressures right now, but only has, you know, six and a half sacks to his name. So that's, you know, sort tells the story there. There's not much production outside of him. The secondary has regressed, and I don't really think you can trust Jerry Jacobs in some of the corners that they have on the team in terms of getting stops against premier receivers in this league. And over on the offensive side of the ball, one of their strengths was the offensive line, being able to protect Jared Gough. Haven't done that recently. I know there have been some injuries. Frank Ragg now missed the last game.

Jonah Jackson's missed some time, but that unit has not protected him well. Jared Gough, as we know, when he's under pressure, he struggled some time. So you do need a clean pocket. You do need to protect him and keep them upright for him to be at his best. And as a result, you know, he's turning the ball over quite a bit. And even in the last game, he had some rare drops. I think Ammaras and Brown had three or four drops in that game, which you never expect to see from a guy like him.

So when you look at both sides of the ball, there has been regression. They're four and three in their last seven games after the five and one start. And it's easy to look at the overall 9-and-4 record, and that's better than it has been in most years. But I think Lions are fans are starting to project to January because this team, this franchise hasn't won a playoff game since 1991, and they want to get that first win, you know? And so I think they're starting to project a little bit and say,

this team is not playing the best football in December. That's what Dan Campbell wanted, and it just hasn't been the case so far. A couple of things jumped out from your story yesterday. He said he wanted to be more irritable in practice this week. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but the fact that he's admitting that is telling. And a quote you had from defensive lineman John Kaminsky, I feel like we've lost our swagger and our confidence.

That is not something you want to hear in December from a team that's going to probably be in the playoffs. We'll get to that in a minute. But this made me laugh. This is the first comment on your story from a reader. I'm assuming this is a Lions fan. He wrote, Hello, Darkness, my old friend. What's the vibe around the team, knowing their history? And, you know, they're on this great start, and they're eight and two for the first time since 1963 or whatever it was.

And then if you just look at it in a vacuum, which your story kind of does, like, they're not a good football team right now, the way they're playing. Is there this trepidation sinking in, this fear that, oh, man, here we go again. It's Detroit. They're going to find a way to blow this. Yeah, it's kind of like there's confusion which team is going to show up on a week-to-week basis right now. Is it going to be the team that started off five in one last, you know, early in the season? Is it the team that went eight and two down the stretch last year? Because that team felt like they could compete with anyone towards the end of the year, carry that over.

over the first six weeks or is it gonna be this team of late that we've seen that's turning the ball over, not getting stops on defense, giving up, you know, some of the most points in the league, and just playing uncharacteristic football, they're beating themselves. And that was sort of the biggest thing for me. It's like when they were winning these games, they were taking care of the ball, they're playing clean football. And that is something that you could kind of expect, whether the talent was there, you know, whether the young players were ready or not, like you could kind of expect that they would be the sort of brand of football.

that would be clean, they wouldn't beat themselves, they would prey on mistakes. That just hasn't been the case. It's been quite the opposite. So, yeah, you look at the guys on defense and they're saying we've lost our swagger, we have to get that back. I'm not exactly sure how they do that. Maybe it's some late season additions that could be coming back like see Dick Arner Johnson, working his way back from a torn pack injury, pass wrestler James Houston, who had eight sacks in seven games last year. He should be back late December, early January, so right before the playoffs. So maybe that's enough to kind of give you a spark on that side of the ball.

and offensively it's yeah I mean they keep saying we got to take care of the football but they've got 10 turnovers their last four games three more on Sunday it's like it's trending in the wrong direction so I do think for Lions fans the mood right now is this team is not capable of winning

a playoff game the team that we're seeing right now play in November and December now there's still four games to kind of get right and you know get back on track but based on what we've seen so far there's not much confidence that they'll be able to get that win I was looking at their schedule, and there's a lot of contacts to this conversation, but did we get ahead of ourselves with this team? Like, what's their best win in your eyes of this season?

Was it opening night? Because they haven't really beaten a lot of good teams. Again, that's not a fault of theirs because they haven't seen a lot of great teams. And I always think there's something to be said for winning games when you don't have your best stuff, which is kind of what they've been doing in the last couple weeks. But did we get ahead of ourselves considering they haven't really proven it again? Philly or Dallas or San Francisco yet? Yeah, maybe. And part of it's like they don't play a ton of those teams.

They'll play Dallas here late in December. But the Chiefs win, I thought, kind of showed what they could be at full strength. And you lose some guys from that game. And, you know, I still think they've had some good wins along the way. But when we were getting a week six and they're five to one and, you know, the questions started coming, are they a Super Bowl contender? You know, maybe we did get ahead of ourselves because when you talk to Dan Campbell and Brad Holmes, They've been very careful not to use that word, Super Bowl.

Really? Because they understand this is year three of a three-year rebuild. So they're just now getting out of it. They're just now getting to a place where they feel like, let's just win the division. Let's get into the playoffs and get into the dance, as Dan Camel likes to say, and see what can happen. This is never a Super Bowl or a bus type season.

I think their inactivity at the deadline kind of signaled that. They had a chance to maybe trade for Chase Young or a Montesweed or one of these pass rushers that were on the market. it and they stood pat, said they looked at everything, but decided to roll it back with the team they had. I think that was them kind of saying, we like the team we have in place, we really do, we think we're on the right track, let's see what we can do this season, if we need to adjust in the offseason, we'll keep our draft capital, we'll make some moves of free and see, and

then we'll adjust from there. So I think that was sort of the idea. Lions fans don't want to hear that because, you know, as any team, they've been patient. They want to see a winning team. They've been as patient as anybody out there. As anyone, as anyone, you know, and so I get it. But at the same time, they've always stated they had a plan in place, and they weren't going to deviate from that, no matter whether they're ahead of schedule or not.

So I think that's kind of what we're saying right now. Mid-season skids are not abnormal for teams that go on playoff runs. We'll see what happens. As of right now, the Lions are 9 and 4, very much in command of the NFC North. It's their division to lose. Vikings are 7 and 6, and the Packers are 6. They play the Giants tonight. You would assume the Packers win, so that means the Vikings and the Packers are both 7 and 6.

The division race is not over. And I don't love Detroit's finishing stretch. They do have the Vikings twice. Who the Vikings play at quarterback is kind of up for debate. They didn't have a good day yesterday on offense. They play the Broncos this week. And I think we're going to learn a lot about them when they go to Dallas in week 17. Do you see ingredients of a late season?

I don't need to use the term revival. But can they get this fixed, win the division, and then be competitive? in a playoff game, which I think would be the first home playoff game. And I don't know, since I was like five years old or something. Like, can they found what they had early on in September and October? I think they can. I mean, the key for them is just winning some of these games. They don't need to win all of them.

Yeah. If they win two or three, I think they're in good shape here. You kind of put the pressure on the Vikings and Packers to kind of win out just to have a chance at the division. So it's still very much in Detroit's favor. In terms of the schedule coming up, I think, the Broncos is a low-key kind of sneaky game because they don't, they're pretty efficient on offense. Their defense is opportunistic. They turn the ball over, generate a lot of takeaways. So I think when you're looking at a game like that, the lines will have to be

on top of their game. They can't get away. They can't sleepwalk into these games like they have in the past. Otherwise, those turnovers are going to keep piling up. And I think the key for this team, everyone likes to point at the defense and say, it's not good enough. We knew that going into the season. We knew that it would be an uphill battle for that defense to get from, you know, dead last to even middle of the pack. To me, it was always about the offense. This team will go as far as Jared Goff and this offense can take them. So if they're going to turn the ball over and, you know, shoot themselves in the foot, this team probably won't go so far. But if they can clean that up, as Dan Campbell keeps saying, I think they'll be able to kind of write the ship a little

bit, maybe go two and two down the stretch. That might be enough to get to a division title at 11 and 6. So we'll see, but they've got some work to do for sure. Tell me if you disagree, I can't see them competing with the Cowboys. That game's in Arlington on that turf. Dallas, and maybe I'm just blinded by the fact that they just whipped the Eagles last night. But defense, offense, the Cowboys are rolling right now, and I just can't see Goff going toe-to-toe with Prescott, with Parsons coming after him.

Is there enough to get hot? on offense? Like if they're not, I mean, if they're getting out played by Justin Fields yesterday, it's not a good omen. No, it's not. I mean, look at what the defense has allowed other quarterbacks to do. You know, Jordan Love, Justin Fields, doesn't really matter. Yeah, these guys are like turning other

quarterback seasons around. They are. Even Derek R. before he went down, that game was playing pretty well. I think it was like 17 of 22 against them. So, has not looked great, and all of a sudden you got Dag Prescott, probably the MVP favorite. You're going to his building in a couple weeks, and that's going to be daunting. Even

before DAC went on this run, that was a game where you're kind of like, it's on the road against a really good defense. That might not go your way. And now they just took down the Eagles, playing their best football of the season. That's going to be a tough one. I wouldn't expect the lines to win that one. But if they can get one against the Broncos and then split against the Vikings, and that's two wins right there, gets you to 11-6. Again, I think that's enough. You would have to force the Vikings and Packers to basically win out at that point.

I'm not so sure they can do that. The Vikings scoreback situation is kind of a mess right now. Even the Packers, I know they have a light schedule, but that would, that winning division would require them to win like nine of their final 10 games, which is asking a lot of a young team like that. So we'll see. There's usually slip-ups along the way, but I still think the Lions are in a good spot, all things considered.

Yeah, it's probably looking like a split against the Vikings just by the nature of it. And if you can win against the Broncos, you probably feel good. You know, the Vikings and the Packers are not great teams. Now, they might make a run, but they're certainly not great teams. so they can certainly kind of back their way into the playoffs and then we'll see what happens. I hope Detroit gets that home playoff game. They haven't had one in forever.

The city deserves it. But they're not playing great right now, so there's a lot to keep an eye on. Thanks for hopping on, Colton, and we'll catch up with you down the line. Absolutely. Thanks for having. All right, from East Rutherford, New Jersey. Another quiet week in Jets World.

We're going to welcome in Zach Rosenblatt, our Jets Ryder. Before we get to the game, which was surprising in its own right, Zach, and you've had a very interesting, season. Let's go back to the week that was because it was eventful and chaotic and controversial, as is a lot of the jet season. But let's just walk us through Zach Wilson returning to the starting lineup. You and your colleague Diana Rusini reported this week that he was a little hesitant at first.

How did this all play out from your lens? At the beginning of the week, I had heard that they were thinking about going back to Zach because Tim Boyle had been, you know, Tim Boyle. And so I was just trying to keep in track of if and when that was going to happen. And then I got a tip on Monday that they went to him and he said, no thanks, essentially. And I think the reluctance or whatever reward you want to use, and this has been covered already. But yeah, the reluctance had a lot to do about, like, number one, like a fear of getting hurt behind this offensive line. and affecting his future. And I think there's also an aspect of,

he was pretty much told, like, you're going to be an active for the rest of the season and we'll find a new home for you next offseason. Wow. So when they go back to him, like in his head, he's like already accepted that his season with the Jets was over. And also there's, I think there's an aspect of him

feeling scapegoated for everything that's been going on. He's getting bench. He's going to put back in. He's going to put back in. He gets benched this time. and Tim Boyle goes in, like at least last time, Mike White went in and he played very well, and the whole team rallied around him,

but that was not what happened here. So, yeah, that all happens. We do the report, and then kind of the rest of the week plays out the way it did. You know, we got Robert Sala saying certain things, Aaron Rogers saying certain things. Zach Wilson saying things. Like, the firestorm happened,

and then Sunday happened, and you saw it, Zach played angry. So something worked. Played loose, it sounded like. Let's go back before. that we get to the game, where is Zach Wilson at right now? Like mentally, you're there every day, you talk to them. They start out with that emotional win over the bills on opening night. They let the realization sink in that Aaron Rogers is most likely not going to play this season.

This is another chance for Zach Wilson to firmly establish himself as a starter in this league, whether that's in New York or somewhere else. And then the wheels have just kind of fallen off the last couple weeks, three straight losses, heading into Sunday's game against Houston. Yeah. Where was he at in his career and with the Jets? I know you said not to go to Sunday, but it kind of all ties together. Yeah. If he had, like, shown the attitude that he played with on Sunday, like, previously, then I don't

know if we'd even have been in the position that we got into. But yeah, you know, I think the whole, this whole year was supposed to be him sitting behind Aaron Rogers. That's been the going thing. They've even said that publicly, so it's not even like a private thing. The goal is for him not to play it all this year. And then obviously Aaron Roger gets hurt. He gets thrown back in.

He shows some flashes. He plays the Chiefs. He shows some of that confidence. They've been hyping up how he's not the same guys last year when he lost his confidence. They've been saying that over and over. They said it again these last couple weeks when he got benched. And so we didn't, yeah, I think he clearly was like, you could definitely see when, even when we talked to him after he got benched. Like he's matured a lot, like all of the wars and all the battle wounds he has.

He's definitely matured from it. There was definitely like a looseness to him. You can see him in the locker, I'm kind of having fun weirdly when he got bench. Like he was playing ping pong. You know, guys are like saying how good he's gotten. And, you know, he's making jokes about how he has a lot of time on his hands now. Wow. Yeah.

And so, you know, you look at that and then you see, you know, again, just to like jump at, you know, he told guys all week this week and they said this after the game. He's like, I just, what do I have to lose at this point? Like, are they going to bench me again? Like, essentially what he said to these guys. So him playing with that attitude kind of helped him where I think he was scared to make mistakes before he was not scared to make them this time. And that's why you saw all the best game of his career.

That's a real thing for young quarterbacks, especially when their confidence takes a shot, is playing not to lose as opposed to eff it, right? And Sala, in your story this morning was like, that's the best he's ever played, which is saying something. There have been moments, but what a strange time for the best game of your career to happen. Besides just letting it rip, what changed?

I mean, the Texans are a playoff contender, and they've got their star quarterback who's coming into his own is probably going to win rookie the year. And the Jets beat the heck out of them. 30 to 6, a game that was never close. The Texans didn't have anything on offense until even late in the game.

What changed besides Wilson? Well, I should say, Like even with Wilson being scared to make mistakes, I think there was also an aspect of the coach staff being scared that he was going to make them. So I think you saw the play calling that Sala and Hackett were pushing forward was like very risk-averse. They were trying to win games 10 to 7. Like they were trying to do like very grimy games. They thought that was not working.

Yeah. Yeah. Which I never really, like their offense was so bad to the point where like it didn't make any sense to me that they weren't trying anything creative or different. You know, again, and I, they'll tell anybody who will listen this. They planned on having Aaron Rogers. and then he went down and this offense was built for somebody with Aaron Rogers' capabilities, both mentally and, you know, with the ability to throw the ball. And so, you know, I think the play calling was a big fact.

I will say the first half there, play calling was kind of the same. It was zero, zero at half time. Like, they were still doing a lot of the same run, run pass. Like, they kept doing that every drive. And then they finally opened up the playbook to start the second half. Zach Wilson made this great off-schedgedle throw to Garrett Wilson, where he evaded some pass rush. He threw it across the other side of the field,

hit Gary Wilson in a sea of defenders. That kind of like just like open the floodgate. So like Zach Wilson definitely was a driving course behind the offense, finally being good. The play calling was probably the best it's been all year in the second half. And it was one of those things where it's like just so hard not to think about what took them so long to realize this was the right way to use Zach. And the other side of it is their defense was just absolutely dominant again.

Like they've done it all year. They've had, you know, they've slipped up a little bit recently. You almost couldn't blame them. Yeah. But they've actually stifled some great quarterbacks. And C.J. Stroud has been, as you know, like, I mean, you wrote that great story about it. I mean, it's been one of like five to ten best quarterbacks in the league this year and made them look like a rookie. Yeah.

And so finally, the offense kind of like, you know, the offense and defense worked together for the first time all season. So the defense did what they did. And the offense will come on the field and they would score in the second half. And yeah, so the formula was finally working. It's just like one of those things like this coaching staff, like why did it take them so long? to unleash Zach in this way, ultimately, was the biggest question I had. That's a good question. And you just said something that's interesting.

Like, finally, the offense and defense are working together. Like, we all know what happened in New York this season. But, like, the fact that that happened on December 10th is just crazy with all the offseason optimism and hard knocks and all that. Were you buying Aaron Rogers' push to play? Like, Christmas Eve or at some point this season, like, were you buying into that? Or is that, is this a guy you just don't doubt? If they had playoff hopes alive.

It's a good question. I definitely was one of the more skeptical, I would say, that it was a real thing because it seems insane to me the idea that a doctor would clear a guy three months after Achilles surgery. Like no matter what he wants to say. Yeah. Yeah. And the lack of point and all that stuff. But I do think just like, as we know how Aaron Rogers is, I do think there's a part of him that really wants people to talk about his amazing comeback within a season from Achilles surgery. So that's why after they won last night, I'm like, oh, crap, is he going to come back?

I don't think so, but I still are leaning towards like predicting no, but I can't rule it out completely. And that's kind of insane. But yeah, for the Jets sake, you would hope they don't throw them out there. You know, he spoke to us a couple weeks ago. Feels like a lifetime ago in Jets' time. Yeah. And he said basically something, which, you know, but pretty, it went pretty crazy on Twitter because it's kind of insane thing to say. He was like, well, if I go and get hurt again, then my recovery will still put me in time to get back for next season.

I've never heard a player say that out loud before. I'm sure guys have thought that where they're like, all right. I mean, it's a risk, but like, I'll be back at that. But hearing it out loud, I was like, wait, what? That's an awful way to approach things. Aaron Rogers goes by his own rules. So that's kind of how it goes. I think he does like the idea that no one thinks he can come back this season.

Yeah. And obviously, you've talked to a lot of. players coming back from injury, I have as well, where they need that benchmark. Like, even if it's ridiculous, like, they need a date to be like, I need to be back. Like, they need something pushing them in those early days, that slog of rehabilitation. But this just doesn't make sense on any conceivable level. Let's assume he doesn't play. They finish with whatever record they finish with.

It's a wasted year. What does the Jets in 2024 look like? It sounds like Rogers' intent on coming back. Are they just going to run it back? same coaches, same quarterback, and pray to God he doesn't get hurt again. You know, I thought there's real possibility before yesterday that they might not win another game. And if that was the case and you lose 10 in a row or you lose 9 of 10, whatever it is, like I thought it would have been hard to justify bringing any back buddy back.

I think this win gives them a little bit of breathing room because I do think the plan all along has been to bring it even when they've been at their worst. Everybody's talked with confidence internally that like they're all coming back. They're getting a mulligan. And it's kind of unprecedented in a lot of ways. If you just look at, number one, teams that have drafted like a bust at as high as they draft the one surviving this long. Right. Two, team, a GM lasting this long without ever even, like sniffing the playoffs.

And number three, like a head coach going into his fourth year without ever sniffing the playoffs. Like those were all like anomalies. This is a very unique situation because the Rogers thing. But then this whole organization is, again, banking out a 40-year-old coming off Achilles. I think people already were wondering if he was going to be on the decline or not. Um, so, you know, there's going to be a lot of questions. They need to build this offense back up. They do have a lot of holes.

Can they fix the line? Like, like, that's a dangerous game to play with a 40 year old quarterback coming off an injury. Like, if you change coaches, you're going to have to cater to your quarterback, even though he's probably going to be there for one year. And like, they're already catering to him with the personnel they're bringing in all these playmakers before last season. So like clearly he would have a say in the coaches, like you're opening up a can of worms if you do that. But again, if you don't, then you're playing with five. fire because he's coming off an injury and who knows if he last 17 games next year.

Yeah. And I think you're going to see, especially if and when Zach Wilson is gone, I imagine Woody Johnson, their owner will be okay with them investing in a backup quarterback this time around because I don't know how okay with. I mean, they were okay with going to with Zach Wilson, but I don't know if you wanted to pay three quarterback. So I think that'll be, that's the thing. They have a lot of holes that they have like technically some cap space, but it goes away

real quick when you factor in, you know, draft classes and, you know, There's some guys they need to resign. And so all of a sudden, you need to get a number two ride receiver. Everybody has dreams of Devante Adams. That's kind of like the going thing everybody's talking about around here. Or get him. You have to trade for and pay him. And then you have to get offensive linemen.

You have to get a back to quarterback. You have to get a running back to compliment Brise Hall. They have a lot of holes on offense. Their defense, for the most part, they're in pretty good shape. But yeah, the offensive line in particular is obviously the biggest question. It's always been the biggest question around here. He's the starting quarterback week one next fall, you think? I mean, unless he comes and gets hurt in week 18 this year, I guess.

But yeah, that would be my guess. And hopefully you last more than four plays because it kind of almost doesn't feel like I've covered Aaron Rogers because that happened. And then we went back to Zach Wilson. You've written a lot of Aaron Rogers stories, but you haven't really covered him, if that makes sense. Yes, exactly. Exactly, yeah. That's strange. Well, for your sake, I hope it quietes down.

But they don't have a first round pick. Is that correct? Is that going to Green Bay or is it the second round? They don't have a second round. So it was a contingent of Roger playing 60% of snap. So pretty much in week one, they knew that that wasn't going to happen. Yeah. Okay.

Well, I got a suggestion. Offensive line. That's just a suggestion from afar. But hopefully you get a quieter month ahead before the season ends and then you move into an offseason, which will no doubt be very chaotic. But thanks for joining us, Zach. And at least you got to read about a win yesterday. That had to be a nice change of pace.

Yeah. I'm about to do our Jets podcast a little bit. Here we haven't had a Victory Monday podcast in a while. It's, you know, fans, again, as you know, as someone who has covered the Colts for a long time, like when you write about a team that's losing, they're like, you're just trying to be negative all the time. But we don't want them to lose. Like, that's, we're not rooting for the team to lose. It's better for business when they win.

I just write what happens. Like, everybody can watch the same game. I remember hearing that quote from a GM one time. So, hey, Mr. Positivity today. So enjoy it because I don't know how many more Mondays you're going to get like this. Thanks, Zach. I appreciate it. All right.

I want to thank Zach Rosenblatt in East Rutherford, Colton Pouncing in Detroit, Paul Danor Jr. in Cincinnati for hopping on on busy Mondays and sharing tons of great insight about the teams they cover and where they're at in this season. After tonight, two Monday Night Football Games, we will have one month left in the regular season and then the playoffs will begin. For some teams, they will be making that push to the playoffs, others making that push towards the top of the draft. So we've got a lot of good football and a lot of good conversations on the way. Full slate of shows this week, as always. on the Athletic Football Show podcast feed. In the Pocket with Chase Daniel, Football GM with Mike Sando and Randy Mueller, the week 15 preview with Nate and Robert, and obviously prospect of pros with Dane Bruegler. So lots of good stuff to come. Football season is heating up,

and we've got a long way ahead of us. Thanks for listening, and we will catch up with you guys next week. This was the Athletic Football Show.