The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Keefer and the Beats: The Bills get upset, the Ravens make a statement, and the Panthers make a change

Episode Date: October 24, 2023

Are injuries on the defensive side of the ball going to upend the Bills? Are the Ravens an inner-circle Super Bowl contender? And what's coming for the Panthers after the change in playcallers? The Athletic NFL beat writers Joe Buscaglia (Bills), Jeff Zrebiec (Ravens), and Joe Person (Panthers) join Zak Keefer to discuss these topics, and more, on this episode of The Athletic Football Show's Keefer and the Beats. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome back to the athletic football show. This is Zach Kiefer, and welcome to the week seven edition of Keefer in the Beats. We got a heck of a show for you guys today, digging into three really fascinating teams for three really different reasons. After what I thought was a really wild week in the NFL, big boy win last night by the Philadelphia Eagles. They looked like the veteran team that had been there before, and the dolphins. Every time they have a chance to make a statement, They look like pretenders.

For the Eagles, that's a really deep team, a really well-coached team. That's getting even deeper today with the addition of Kevin Byard. The Steelers starting to show some signs of life. And thanks to a bad spot yesterday late in L.A., they beat the Rams 24 to 17. It's not always pretty. Let's be honest, it's hardly ever pretty with the Steelers. But they are four and two a half game back of the Ravens in the AFC North. And Kenny Pickett has another fourth quarter comeback.

under his belt. In Indy, the Browns, took advantage of another horrendous call. This was a pass interference. I don't care what anybody says. That ball was so uncatchable. Jerry Rice standing on top of Calvin Johnson's shoulders probably doesn't catch that. But anyway, Browns 39, Colts 38. The problem is Deshawn Watson, who isn't good and isn't healthy. It doesn't look like. Cleveland made this bed, though, and they're going to have to lie in it. The Giants look more fluid on offense with Tyrod Taylor at quarterback than they do with Daniel Jones. The Chiefs, when their sixth in a row, Taylor Swift was there, what else is new? And Jordan Love and the Packers might have a problem.

He's not good right now. And after losing to a Broncos team that has a horrendous defense, the same defense that everybody else in the league is torching, there's some tough questions to answer right now in Green Bay. Remember, the Packers, after having an elite quarterback for the past 31 years between Aaron Rogers and Brett Fav are starting to see how the other half live. but we're going to dig into three fascinating teams right now for a lot of different reasons. We'll start in Buffalo. The Bills could not beat Mack Jones on the Patriots yesterday in Foxborough. Buffalo is now three and four.

They can't get their offense right in the first half. They are riddled with defensive injuries and they have a murderer's row coming up in the heart of their schedule. We'll take the temperature in western New York for a team most thought, including myself, were a genuine Super Bowl contender just a few weeks ago, if not a favorite, especially after that Dolphins win. Joe's got a lot of great insight on Ken Dorsey, the O.C., Sean McDermott, the head coach, and obviously Josh Allen, the quarterback. There's a lot going on right there with that team,

and Joe's got a ton of great insight to peel back the curtain on what's going on inside that building. Then we'll check in with Jeff Zeebreck in Baltimore, where the Ravens absolutely stomped the Lions. A performance I would rank right up there with one of the most impressive in the by any team this season, the others being what the 49ers did to the Cowboys and what the bills did to the Dolphins earlier this year. Jeff's got some great insight on the final stages of Lamar Jackson's contract negotiation last spring. Remember, this was contentious for a long time between the player and the team, how Lamar has been different since that deal got done,

and what the ceiling for this team is, because without a doubt, after yesterday, it's the Super Bowl. And finally, I had a really good conversation with Joe Person and Charlotte about the mess the Panthers find themselves in six games into this season. They're the only winless team in football, and Coach Frank Reich is already handing off play-calling duties to his offensive coordinator, something I never thought Reich would do this early into his tenure in Charlotte. They have a match-up Sunday against Houston that pits the number one pick in the draft, Bryce Young, against the number two pick, C.J. Stroud, who has wildly outplayed him. Is it too early for the Panthers to feel like they made the wrong pick? It probably is, but there's a lot that goes into this. And Joe has a lot of info behind the scenes, including on owner David Tepper's involvement

that helps peel back the curtain a little bit on what's going on with the Panthers. So lots of great insight from Joe on a team that's struggling and a coach that doesn't really have the answers so far. So a really awesome show today, tons of great insight into these franchises. Let's jump right in. All right, first up, out of Western New York, Joe Baskaglia, our Bill's beatwriter, who's back from paternity leave to cover what I think, what I wrote yesterday, is the most confounding team in football. The bills are four and three. They have looked one week like Super Bowl contenders. The last couple weeks, they looked like a team that might not even make the playoffs.

If you look at the rest of their schedule, you'll see what I'm talking about. I want to start here, Joe, with a very simple question. Who the hell are the bills right now? Oh, man. You just asked one of the many mysteries of life. Here we go. I don't know that I have that answer because, look, when you see them do what they did, and you even said right before we hit record on this, you were at the Miami game.

I mean, that was as impressive as showing from any NFL team this year, especially the week after Miami just posterized Denver for something. 70 points. Yeah, I put it right up there with the 49ers and what they did to Dallas. Yeah. And what the Ravens did yesterday to the Detroit Lions. That was that impressive. They were absolutely rolling the entire day. They looked like a team that was not going to be afraid of anybody. Yep. And you see them do that. You see them beat the Raiders soundly the way that they did. But then you have all of these other examples, like even week one against the Jets, where Josh Allen effectively imploded.

And after Aaron Rogers went down without even completing a forward pass. So that was something in itself and losing to Zach Wilson for the second time in a couple of years. And then after that, even that Washington game where it looked like a blowout on paper, the offense was a little bit slow going and the defense is really what kind of opened things up. And, you know, Sam Howell got sacked a bunch. They forced them to turn the ball over. And then from there, they go to London. They're asleep at the wheel in the first half of that game.

Only score seven points in that first half. Against the Giants the next week. They don't score in the first three quarters. It's the first time that's happened since 2018, which is Josh Allen's rookie year. And that's when they got shut out by Aaron Rogers and the Green Bay Packers at Lambo. And then whatever the heck happened yesterday in Foxborough against the New England Patriots, where yet again, they were slow to get started on offense. only scoring three points.

So that's 10 collective points in first halves over their last three games. And for a team that has been so dynamic as an offense since 2020, since Josh Allen really established himself, for them to go through this stretch of games, it has a lot of people wondering what the heck is going on. It has Sean McDermott wondering what the heck is going on. Why can't they put these drives together? Why can't they capitalize on points?

Why are they just missing in so many different areas? when they have all of this talent. And it's not as though it was last year where, you know, they were struggling for a third receiver. And even their second receiver, Gabe Davis was nursing a high ankle sprain for the majority of the year. This year, they go out, Gabe Davis is healthy. They go out and get Dalton Kincaid, who looks like a stud from what we've seen so far in training camp. And yesterday was his breakout game.

They go out, they sign two more receivers in Deonti Hardy and Trent Sherfield to kind of chip in. And they revamp the offensive line to the fact, to the point. where it's their top offensive line since, in my opinion, since McDermott and Bean came around in 2017. So what exactly is the disconnect here? And that's the question that I think a lot of people are wondering here in Western York, especially when this unit was supposed to be the one that takes the bills over the top, especially with injuries to Matt Milano, to Dequan Jones, to Tridavius White, three of their

star defenders who White is out for the year. Milano and Jones might be out for the year. And it has a lot of people wondering, okay, did this team peak already? Or can they get back to it? Because like you laid out, Zach, it's about to get real here in Buffalo. They've got Tampa Bay on Thursday night.

But after that, you have, in a span of seven games, you've got, and I don't have the order on the top of my head, so just bear with me. You've got the Bengals. You've got the Jets. You've got the Cowboys. You've got the Chiefs. You've got the Eagles.

You've got the Chargers. That is a murderer's row of teams you have to go up against. And they need to figure their stuff out and quick here on a short week and try and salvage their season instead of going four and four and then with a gauntlet ahead of them. There's so many ways to dig into this. The slow starts are very relevant. And so are the injuries on defense.

I was there when Trey Waite went down. He threw his helmet. You could feel even amid a blowout, the collective sigh of just disbelief that he was suffering an injury. That hurts. But in the first half of the last three games, collectively they've been outscored 30 to 10 in the first half, like you mentioned. This is a team with Josh Allen at quarterback, who has been at times better than Mahomes over the last couple years. They have been as explosive as anybody short of Kansas City.

That should never happen. I have felt from afar like they never had the run game to support Josh Allen. They've tried. They haven't accomplished that. And outside of leaning on Josh's incredible ability to improvise and to run and to take hits, they never really had an offensive identity outside of just throw to 14, and he's that good to carry them, digs. But now it seems like they're trying to peel back Josh's running,

and they don't really know where they're going. But I'm on the outside, you're on the inside. What does it look like from your perspective about how an offense this talented and this deep, and we need to get into the Ken Dorsey conversation? is so bad in the first part of games. Like yesterday, he throws an errant interception on the first snap, and then they're down 10 to zero to the Patriots before they even take a second snap.

Like, how is this happening? Yeah, that interception was bad. It's like he didn't even look to see if the defender was anywhere close. That happens too much. It happens too much with him. You're right. And I think you hit the nail on the head with him running because for so long,

Josh Allen had this air of, oh, come on, How did he get out of that situation to him? He's unbelievable. He's so, I mean, I've never saying that so many times. And a lot of that had to do with his ability to scramble when things go off script and make people miss in the open field and become this dynamic force to the point where they are picking up these third and eights, third and nines, third and 11s because of his legs or that teams are so scared of his legs that they get out of position and he hits them right over the top. that is not as much of a factor because now the bills are entering this realm, this very weird realm of them trying to balance the long-term overall outlook for Josh Allen and keeping him upright because Josh does not go down. I mean, he'll slide every once in a while. He'll go out of bounds every once in a while. It's almost like he wants the contact. He runs into guys sometimes. And he's big enough to just bounce.

up, but I cover a quarterback who did the same thing, and then eventually he didn't bounce back up and the injuries took a toll. And I hope the same thing doesn't happen here, but I cannot help watch Josh Allen take the hits he's taken six, seven years in, and not think back to Andrew Luck. And he took the same type of hits. So that's what they're trying to balance right now. The long-term aspect to it, because he is signed for a very long time here in Buffalo to a lot of guaranteed money. And they want to make sure that they keep this window open with him at the helm, while also balancing that they have a very finite Super Bowl window in 2023 with the talent on their

roster. And it hasn't really gone well enough, at least not to my opinion. And when you see them just lacking the overall teeth to their offense, that that quality that we were talking about, the, oh, my. Goodness, he pulled a rabbit out of his hat. How did he get out of this third and long situation again? That isn't there as much with Josh. You can't live on that in the long term.

Mahomes doesn't do that as much. Now, those are the highlight plays that get played on the shows and stuff, but like you've got to win from the pocket over time. And it seems like they're having a hard time straddling that line of keeping Josh Josh, right? But also keeping him safe. And that's tricky. Yeah. And so now it puts them in a,

difficult position because, as you alluded to, their run game, it's been better this year. James Cook, I think, is the best running back talent that they've had since Josh Allen became the starting quarterback in 2018. And they're finally starting to, you know, get him back integrated within the offense. And he had a really nice day, I thought, against the Patriots. That said, now they are trying to balance not having this Josh Allen rushing attack, where defenses are no longer afraid of it and not game planning for it. And if he's breaking out of the pocket and breaking contain, they're not necessarily approaching him as much as they have in the

past where he can find these open targets down the field to get out of these third and long situations. And it leads to wonder about how the offensive coordinator Ken Dorsey is going to go about fixing all of it. And the slow starts are real. They haven't had this. type of stretch of first-haves in a long time, probably since Josh's rookie year. And it's unfortunate and perhaps a bit unfair that Dorsey will constantly get compared to his predecessor, Brian Daibel, because he was so prolific. And even if he had a bad game, he just completely changed the script of what they did, changed their identity for one week, had a counterpunch ready for a defense, ready to attack them in a certain way, and then they moved on.

It was just a constantly moving target, and it doesn't feel like the target has moved all that much, where the bills are just kind of who they are, which is throw it to digs, watch Allen try and make stuff happen from the pocket or just outside of the pocket and hope his arm can lead them to the next round. And it seems unsustainable, and that's why there's got to be a lot of hard conversations in a short week. week as to with this gauntlet of games that they've got coming up as to what they do. And I don't know if it's a, hey, they need to fire Ken Dorsey situation, but I think a good, hard look at what they are as an offense, what has worked, what isn't. And you can tell Sean McDermott is frustrated by it all from some of his postgame comments. It's not a great situation right now. And they need answers.

And they need answers quickly. I was going to ask you about the temperature in Western New York. because that team, those people live for that team. Like, I felt it a month ago, and I was like, it's like this every time I'm here. They live for this team, and they know the window is open. However open you want to decide, that's up for debate. But you wrote something interesting yesterday about what I want to ask, is you said the attention should go to offensive coordinator Ken Dorsey.

Feels like the bills take too long to adapt, not reacting to the punch from a defense quickly enough with a counterpunch of their own. And then you go on to say that one of the things that made Brock, Dable, such a terrific O.C. Was his ability to reinvent the offense from one week to the next. Everyone knows that Dable was instrumental in helping Alan climb to the level he's at. What's the temperature like with Ken Dorsey? And then with Sean McDermott, because there's one expectation there.

It's either you win the whole thing and you end the suffering in Buffalo that goes back four or five decades, or you don't. I just don't know if they're getting closer to that trophy or farther away. because after yesterday, not even beating the Patriots, that's not an encouraging sign. Yeah, it definitely feels farther away than they were at any point last year. I mean, they already have as many losses now as they did the entire season last year in the regular season. They went 13 and 3. So this is an unimaginable start, especially with who they've gone up against in the early stages here.

The temperature right now, there's some kind of, there are some people who are starting to bring up McDermen's name a little bit, But what I will say about that is unless this thing completely implodes, Sean McDermin ain't going anywhere. I mean, they've got a new stadium on the way in 2006. They just signed him and Bean to matching extensions through the opening of that new stadium. These are their guys. He has been one of the most prolific head coaches in franchise history. There is, I would be absolutely stunned, barring them going winless the rest of the way

if they were to move on from Sean McDermen. And even then, I think he might have some grace. heading into 2004. Ken Dorsey is a different story. And there has been some slight pushback today after some really strong, some really strong opinions about Dorsey. Because he's Josh Allen's guy. Is that correct?

He is Josh Allen's guy. Yeah. He is the guy that. I wonder how much that matters. Yeah, exactly. He is the guy that when Daible left for the Giants, Alan was openly campaigning for, even in a press conference setting. And they got it done.

So he has been his guy. They had a close relationship when Dorsey was the quarterback's coach under Dayball. And that has helped him. That rapport with Allen has helped him. But this kind of goes into like a different sort of philosophical thing as opposed to just what the actual situation is. Because when roles change, like let's say you or I get a promotion. And we are now, we. are still coworkers, but perhaps we have a different relationship now because of your new

responsibilities and what you have to tell me to do. And I wonder how much that has changed over time. But at the same point, he's still Alan's guy. And Alan is still openly campaigning. Even last on Wednesday, when he spoke with the media, he's like, yeah, there's a lot of all pro coordinators out there in the stands and out in the realm. But we'll leave it to the guys here. And that was a bit weird for him. He hears it. He hears it.

Oh, he absolutely does. They all do. So now it's, what do you do with Dorsey? Because if what is best for the organization is for a new voice at offensive coordinator, then you have someone in-house and Joe Brady who has experience doing it at the NFL level. That was kind of a scapegoat for Matt Ruhl in Carolina. And he's a creative guy. But does that risk alienating the guy?

who openly campaigned for him and the guy who got you into the Super Bowl window in the first place, and that's Josh Allen. I don't know if they would have to get him to sign off or whatever the heck it is, but I think there would at least have to be a conversation about it. That's a slippery slope. It is. You can't always make hires and fires based on what your best player wants, but I understand Buffalo is a different situation,

and championships require difficult choices. And we'll see if it gets to that. It's way early. The funny thing about the bills is they could go out on Thursday night and beat the brakes off the bucks. Like they could put up 40 and no one would be surprised, but it just doesn't seem like they found any level of consistency. And for them to do what they want to do and go on a three to four game run in the playoffs, likely four at this point. They ain't getting a buy, not in this conference. They're going to have to play more consistently than they have at any point this season.

Last thing before I let you go, do you see them? finishing it that way with another playoff run. We know they're capable. We know they have the talent. Now, the defensive loss is really hurt, and you can feel that. Or do you see this just kind of slogging along and finishing in disappointment? Because this is such a fascinating team and that they can hang with the chiefs and they can beat the chiefs or the Bengals or whoever it is. Or they could just become an afterthought.

Like, where is this going to ultimately go? based on your vibe in the city, in the town, in the locker room. I don't want to pass the buck on this question, Zach, but I'm really interested to see how they respond on Thursday. And I think that will dictate a lot of how this is going to go heading into that gauntlet of games. You wouldn't think that a random Thursday night game in October against a, you know, mediocre Tampa Bay Buccaneers team would have a lot of meaning to the bills. But it does. They need an offensive showing here. and a big response to what they have and what they haven't done in the first halves of the last few games.

They have come to the last three games asleep at the wheel on offense and then tried to make up for it all at the end, all at the end of the third quarter and in the fourth quarter. And they almost half. I mean, they traveled to the London on Friday, which I don't understand. And then like you mentioned, the last couple of weeks, like they just haven't even shown up in the first half. They're good enough to come back and probably win a couple of those, but that's a dangerous way to live. They deserved to go 0 and 3 over that three game stretch, and they almost went 2 in 1. And Mack Jones, with his first career game-winning drive with under two minutes ago, stole it away from them, but they didn't deserve to win that game.

So now it's, I want to see how this team responds. I want to see how the offense responds. I want to see how their run defense responds because they will get challenged each and every week without Dayquan Jones and Matt Milano. That is one of my biggest questions for them moving forward. And if they can show that this offense can get on the same page and can be this dynamic group that they have all the potential and the ceiling to be, then I think that kind of changes the equation here. But if they come out slow again and are forced to think about making a change, heading into the Bengals game in week nine and in prime time, with another prime time against the Broncos, the weekend after that, things could get hairy in a hurry here. So, yeah, to be determined, Zach.

And I hate to not answer because I hate when athletes do that to me. But I really think a lot depends on what happens Thursday night. I feel like I can feel the angst in Buffalo right now because they're just, oh my goodness. They're just worried that they have this unbelievably talented quarterback. And I don't know how long the window is going to be open. but they're in it right now. They're in a championship window.

They can make a run every year, and they're just floundering right now, considering the expectations. But like you said, this is that seven-game span beginning in week nine. Bengals, Jets, and you might laugh, but the Jets beat them on opening night without Aaron Rogers, the Eagles who look really good,

the chiefs who've won six in a row, the Cowboys and the Chargers. We're going to find out if this team's for real during that stretch. Joe, thanks for hopping on, man. tons of great insight, got such a great pulse on the team and where they're going, and we will catch you down the line, I'm sure, because they're going to be fascinating for the rest of the way. One way or another, they're going to be fascinating. Sounds great, my man. Thanks for having me, Zach.

All right, welcoming in from Baltimore, Maryland, Jeff Zrebeck. Jeff, we've been wanting to get you on for a couple weeks, and it seems like the perfect opportunity to do it because the Ravens, at least in 2023, have never looked better. First off, how are you doing? And secondly, What's the mood in Baltimore this morning after that absolute beatdown 38 to 6? Over a team, a lot of people were calling one of the best in football, the Detroit Lions. Good, Zach. Always enjoy talking to you. It's kind of been a long stretch here.

They had three, you know, road games back to back to back with the last one being in London. So, you know, yesterday kind of felt like a little bit of a return on normalcy. But, you know, people are excited just because, I mean, They finally showed what people thought they were capable of, right? I mean, there was so much attention coming into this year on, you know, Lamar Jackson has his contract. They now have a more representative receiver group, which they haven't had in the past. They're healthier than they have been in the past.

Injuries have been a major issue with them. So people wanted to see that translate onto the fields. And you know where we are. People need to see it now. NFL's a week-to-week league, obviously, what have you done for me lately? And the fact of the matter is, through the first six weeks or so,

you know, the Ravens have been wildly inconsistent. There's quarters where they look as good as anybody. You know, they'll have some drives where they'll go right down the field, open receivers galore, picking up chunks in the Rudd game, deadly in the red zone. And then they'll have, you know, get shut out for a full half and just kind of bury themselves amid mistakes. and turnover. So yesterday was the first time where they really, I think, showed what they're

capable of when everything's working as a team. They have a playoff caliber defense. I mean, that can't be argued. Right. But, you know, the offense just needed to catch up. And, you know, yesterday was a major step forward as they still kind of get to learn Todd Munkin's offense and their new personnel. You know, it was quite a show. I mean, they even left a couple plays on the field. So there's plenty of to build off of there, too. Yeah, you mentioned the defense second in EPA only to Cleveland, who has a lightshouse defense as well. And you mentioned the inconsistencies. They're not as inconsistent as another AFC contender. That'd be the Buffalo Bills. But I want to rewind this in Baltimore because

we had a lot of talks at the owner's meetings, which seems like 10 years ago in March, when the Lamar Jackson conversation really heated up, right? That's when he wanted a trade. He came out that morning. John Harbaugh is having breakfast in front of 30 reporters getting asked about his franchise quarterback wanting out. And I know everything was sealed up with the contract, but like after they got the deal done in Baltimore, did everything just go back to normal? Was it all okay? Because this was, there was a decent amount of animosity between the quarterback and the team for a couple months and back, you know, back and forth. Was everything just fine right away? No, I think it took a little while.

Zach, I mean, I think, you know, everybody, you know, Harbaugh and GM Eric DeCosta, they said the right things. But I think this negotiation was really challenging on both a personal, professional level. You know, Eric DeCost, especially, I mean, you're dealing directly with your franchise quarterback. And there were times where they were absolutely nowhere here, where they weren't even speaking. And I don't want to say it was a Hail Mary. But, you know, right after Jalen Hertz got that deal, Eric Dacosta sent a text to Lamar and said, you know, hey, well, let's try this again. And they sent another offer and people in the building were like, this isn't going to get it done, you know.

But Lamar responded and I said, I think we have the makings of a deal here. And I mean, Eric admittedly was shocked. Like, there had been so low. little progress along the way. So everything came together, but there were some tough days. And I think even getting Lamar back in the building, you know, Lamar Jackson's been different this year from his demeanor. That's not to say, like, he's been Debbie Downer in recent years. He's not like that. He's a very popular teammate. He's accountable in the locker room. The guys love him. And that continues to be the case. But the youthful exuberance.

of Lamar Jackson that had become, that was so, you know, interesting and, you know, he made, it was so likable with, you know, he was always laughing and joking and he showed kind of as inexperience at times, but he sort of was growing up before, before everybody's eyes as, as one of the faces of the league. In recent, you know, in the last season plus before this, he kind of lost that, Zach. I mean, he was kind of playing with, like, the weight of the world on it. shoulders. He didn't look like he was having any fun. And I know he denies it to an extent, and I don't know if it was the contract. I'm sure there was a bunch of things. I'm sure he was

unhappy in the run-based offense they were in with Greg Roman. Yeah, and the injuries probably took a toll to. Injuries, the contract, there was a lot of things going on. So I think it took a little while for Lamar to get back in the building. He's much more content with the kind of offense and the say he has in the offense. Todd Monk's smartest thing he did was empowering Lamar Jackson in this offense, giving him more say to change things, more saying what they were doing, doing more of how Lamar wants to run an offense. He doesn't want to be a running quarterback. I mean, he's made that clear. And I think as he got in the building was around the guys again, the contract's not an issue. He knows how the organization feels about him. You know, it started to feel like

normal again for everybody. And, you know, there was some frustration that they weren't performing as well as they should offensively. But you also sense that these guys all understood how good they could be if they stopped making mistakes. And there was going to be an acclimation process for an entirely new offense. And, you know, as I said, Sunday was a major step forward and all of that. And you mentioned the inconsistencies. There was a lot of drops in there and the new coordinator. I want to dive into this because, you know, when he was possibly on the market, however you want to label it, I watched a lot of Lamar Jackson film. And the narrative out there, at least nationally, which I think is super lazy, is that he's not great from the pocket. And he just beats teams with his legs.

And he was doing that early on in his career for sure. We've all seen the highlights. But I've witnessed games where that dude literally takes defenses apart with his arm. And I think that's the biggest change. I watched yesterday's game and there were a lot of plays that I can specify where in the past, he would have ran out of the pocket. Instead, he just moves a little bit and hits someone. And like you said, 503 yards of offense, they scored touchdowns on their first four drives.

He finished with five total touchdowns. So my question is this, they get rid of Greg Roman in the offseason. They bring Todd Munkin in with no guarantee Lamar's there. Seven games in, how is the offense different and how is Lamar different right now than in years past? Yeah, I mean, for Lamar, I think he's definitely more patient in the pocket. You know, there have been times, I never thought that, you know, he was obsessed with just running all the time. But I thought he lacked patience at times where his first instinct was kind of to run, right? It's hard to blame him for that.

When you're as dynamic as he is, you can outrun anybody. It's hard to, and I'm sure the coaches have had trouble fighting that out of him. But it sounds like he's receptive and he wants to stay in the pocket. He absolutely wants to stay in the pocket. And if you look at his number of rushes, it's very similar, nearly identical to this time last year. Again, we're talking about a seven-game sample size. But there's fewer design runs. A lot of his runs have been off scrambles or where he won't see anything.

Or, you know, their offense line has struggled at times where he's probably had to. to run away from pressure a little more, and those are the runs. So I think he's being more patient and waiting for things to develop a little longer, more willing to stay in there and survey downfield. But I also think the big thing is the passing schemes in Todd Munkins' office. Now, Greg Roman got a bad rap in Baltimore. The offense he built in 2019 around Lamar Jackson, which set records, was spectacular. innovative from a run standpoint.

And at that point in Lamar Jackson's career, that's probably what Lamar Jackson needed as he was very early in his development as a pastor and all that. It felt like it maximized his talent at that stage in his career. Exactly. Where things kind of went wrong with Roman, he's never been a guy known for, you know, sophisticated past concepts and very vanilla from a passing standpoint. And it just felt like in the last year or so, Lamar Jackson had outgrown that often. offense and the league had fully caught up to what they were doing. They were still running the ball well, mind you, but at some point you've got to pick up yards in the passing game, especially in the playoffs when everyone's honed in onto the

little details and they work on taking one thing away. And they just kind of felt like they had outgrown that. And I think this year, you know, I saw, you know, they've much, there's guys running free in the secondary much more than they've had in the past. I mean, we saw it yesterday. Left and right, there was open guys. I think some of the metrics act clearly show that they've had open receivers far more regularly than they had at any point in the past. So I just think right now offensively they have more options, more way of hurting teams.

And they're still running the ball well enough. They're not as dynamic in the run game as they were with Roman, but they're running the ball. You know, they're still top five running offense. They just put up 146 rushing yards against a team that was only allowing 64 rushing yards a game. So they can still run the ball. I still think they could benefit from adding a back here before the trade deadline, but that's another topic. But the difference is they just have ways to threaten teams and defenses at different quadrants of the field that they haven't had in the recent past. I think given the choice, you choose a dynamic passing attack over a dynamic running attack when you do have the quarterback who can literally do both.

I want to talk about the receivers for a minute because, like you said, for years they were kind of chasing. a certain standard in the receiving game. And having a hard time getting those guys with Flowers and Beckham, yesterday being a one-game sample size, probably isn't the best testament. But are they better in that area? And is that making their quarterback's life easier? Yeah, I totally think so. I mean, first of all, Zay Flowers is delivered. He's been, there's such a skepticism about receivers in Baltimore, and rightly so. I mean, they're known to be one of the best organizations at drafting and developing players, but wide receiver has been their weak point.

It's been their Achilles heel. They haven't been able to do it. They've tried so many different avenues too. Yes, yeah. And it's been one bust after another. In some of their better years, they relied on signing these veterans like Steve Smith, Derek Mason.

There's a laundry list, Lee Evans. That was kind of their venue. But those guys were open to playing in Baltimore because those offenses threw the ball a lot. And there was production there. they were going to have a hard time getting top receivers or veteran receivers in the primes of their career or even close to the primes with the way they played offensive football and being a run first outfit. Guys think about that.

They're agents. They talk about that. They think about where are you going? Who's the quarterback? How many targets are you going to get? And especially when you're talking about one-year deals and stuff, I mean, you go to someplace in a one-year deal and you put up no numbers. What happens the next off-season? You're struggling to get another one-year deal.

So, yeah, they've definitely upgraded there. Zayflowers is legit. I mean, he, you know, we haven't even seen, you know, what he can do on a consistent basis. But he looks like the guy that's going to break their mold, the first round ride receiver misses. You know, they're founding ways to get him the ball. And I think they'll continue to find different innovative ways. There's so much attention on Odell Beckham here. Yes, they wildly overpaid him.

$15 million is a wild overpay. For this stage, yeah. For this stage. But I think everybody knew that, Zach. I think the team knew that at the time. But you know what Odell Beckham did? He helped get Lamar Jackson extended. That's worth every penny then.

Yes. So in a ways that was worth it. Lamar wanted him. He wanted DeAndre Hopkins and he wanted Zay Flowers, who's a fellow South Florida guy. The Ravens got him two out of three. So he was pretty happy with that. So that helped.

Also, Beckham sort of turned the tie to the offseason for the Ravens. They were having a brutal offseason. That's a good point. It was a really surprise signing, I thought. Yeah. And Beckham was one of the moves that sort of turned things around and kind of changed the tenor of the offseason. I believe there is momentum to an offseason,

and it wasn't going well for the Ravens. And the Beckham kind of changed the narrative there. And three, you don't sign Odell Beckham for September and October. You sign him for big games in November and December. He's not who he is, but he still has good. good hands. He still can make big plays, and you still trust him in big games. I mean, that Super Bowl was when the last time he was, what, like fully healthy? And he was probably the best player on the field for that Rams Bangal Super Bowl first half before he got hurt. So, you know, he's done

fine. He's helped him. He's been a leader. You know, there's still an aura about Odell Beckham. Teammates love him. So I don't think they regret that move one iota. And I still think Odell Beckin will make some big plays when all said and done. And, you know, the guy that they want to get more involved is Rashad Bateman, the former first round pick, you know, he had a tough day in Pittsburgh. I think they're bigger days ahead for him. He's healthy. And, you know, look, Nelson Aguilar was kind of an understated signing.

But if Nelson Aguilar is your number four receiver and kind of your fifth option, because Mark Andrews is your first option, if Nelson Aguilar is your fifth option, you have a pretty decent receiving core. It's not one of the best receiving cores in the league, but when you combine Lamar's ability with their ability to run the football, you know, they have more than, you know, their receiving core is more than good enough for them

to do what they want to do offensively. The receiving conversation, you have to mention Mark Andrews, right? I mean, Harbaugh forgot how many touchdowns he caught yesterday. And you made a really good point about overpaying for Lamar because social media, whatever you want to call it, the football watching public, they focus

so much on the numbers and the money. But I did a story about Christian Kirk and Jacksonville, and these are not the same situation. But the coaches there were like, look, we knew we overpaid him, but we were paying for character because we were trying to turn this around after Urban Meyer. Look at where the Jaguars are. They paid Christian Kirk what they did to help Trevor Lawrence. And this is a little bit similar. Like they paid Odell Beckham.

And like you said, it jump started an offseason that was going nowhere, and they were at odds with their quarterback. And now they're five and two, and they look like one of the best teams in the AFC. We'll get you out of here on this. I do want to mention Mike McDonald's defense. They've allowed six touchdowns all season, at least to the opposing offenses. They look really good. That defense is humming.

Like the Baltimore defenses, we've seen so many times over the years, where is this team's whole and does it have one? Yeah, it's a great question, Zach. And, you know, you look at what they've done defensively. And, you know, I think the job McDonald is doing. has just been unbelievable. When you consider, you know, look, Marlon Humphrey just came back. He's their best corner.

He's not healthy fully at foot surgery in mid-August. They haven't really gotten much from him yet. Marcus Williams, their high-paid safety has barely played. He's been hurt. Their starting outside linebacker, Tyos Bowser, hasn't played yet. I mean, they've been riddled with injuries defensively. Like, guys that, you know, maybe, you know, they don't have a Miles Garrett. on this defense.

But they were swarming Derek golf yesterday. Yeah. Or even a Trey Hendrickson. They don't have that elite guy who you can count on for 12 sacks or more, but they're doing it from a team concept. And they lead the league in sacks

without a top elite edge rusher, which is pretty insane. Justin Matabike inside's going to make himself a lot of money. He's pricing himself out of their market every game he plays. Roquan Smith, We're heading in towards the trade deadline. And, you know, that move getting him from the Chicago Bears.

That was so smart. It's changed the course of their defense. They've been a different defense from the second he stepped on the field. Eric DeCosta likes to use the term force multiplier. Roquant Smith has made everybody better. So everybody's picked up their game now. They're not doing it with a bunch of household names. They've got some young players that stepped up.

So it's looking really good, Zach. I mean, and they haven't even really played good special teams yet, and we know they're going to get there with Harba as the coach. You know, from a whole perspective, it's just, you know, the consistency issue. They've struggled to finish games. You know, yesterday wasn't a game, but, you know, they gave away the Pittsburgh game. You know, the Indianapolis game. The Indianapolis game was pretty even, but they had every chance. Yeah, they had every chance to win.

in the fourth quarter in overtime. I think they started two possessions in overtime at the 50 and didn't get it in. So they sort of gave away some games. They still need to show they have that killer instinct and they can put teams away and they can stop making mistakes. Even yesterday, it's another fumble when they were going in for a touchdown. I mean, it should have been 35 nothing in the first half. They're still making a little few too many mistakes that they got to fix.

But I think it will be interesting here at the trade deadline. Like, what do they do? Eric DeCosta is a big game hunter. When there's a good player available, they don't always get him, but he's usually in the mix. They lead the league in sacks, but could they go after another pass rusher, like an elite pass rusher? Like a Dinell Hunter, you know, he would make a lot of sense. Or do they go on the offensive side of the ball? I mean, can you get Josh Jacobs from Vegas?

Can you get Derek Henry from Tennessee? Wow, that would reshape things. Yeah. I just think they do. don't have that dynamic back. They lost J.K. Dobbins for the season in week one. Gus Edwards and Justice Hill are suffice. They're solid system guys, but they don't scare anybody, right? If they added a back to that, you know, a dynamic back to kind of that offense, it would kind of be pretty scary. And I think you're at the stage where you could probably

get a running back for a late day two or an early day three pick. So we'll have to see. But they always make deals with DeCasta. They've been one of the most active teams on the trade deadline. And I'd be a little surprised if in the next two weeks they didn't do something to really fortify the roster even more. I think it would say a lot about where they think they are. If they make a big move, that tells you they think they can make a run. I think they can too. And the good news for the Ravens, after all the storms of the offseason, when it comes to football, they're right up there with one of the best teams in the AFC. And no one else is living without inconsistencies right now. Maybe Kansas City, but the bills have been up and down. The Bengals have

had their issues. I could go down the list. The Chargers are two and four. This is their division to lose, I think, right now. It's going to be fun to watch down the stretch as we see sort of a Lamar Jackson 2.0 in Baltimore. But Jeff, thanks for hopping on man after a busy Sunday, and we're definitely going to be catching up down the line because this team's not going anywhere. Sounds good, Zach. Always enjoy talking to you. And joining us from Charlotte is our Panthers Beat Rider. Joe Persson. Joe, how you doing this morning? What's going on, man? Well, you had a buy week, so hopefully you got a couple days to clear the head and remove yourself from the mess that is

the Carolina Panthers right now. We thought it'd be a really good time, even despite the fact that the Panthers did not play to discuss everything going wrong in Charlotte. They're the only winless team in the league. They're 0-1-6. They have the top overall pick, Bryce Young, who is not playing well. Let's go back, Joe, to the draft. They made that huge move. with the Bears, they traded all those picks away, and they went with Bryce Young. Do you know how close it was between Bryce Young and C.J. Stroud and Anthony Richardson even in the Panthers' minds? Well, here's what I know, Zach, and this has been that Frank and Scott Fitter or the GM

have talked about this on the record. When Frank got here, which was late January, they had a draft meeting, probably a pre-combine meeting shortly thereafter. According to Fitterer, they go around the room. This is, you know, assistant GM, bunch of scouts, and take the pulse. Who, if we go up for number one, who do you all want? And according to Fitterer, that was unanimous for Bryce. Unanimous in late January? Here's, you know, the other piece of this.

He turns to Frank. and he said, Frank, I'm not pushing you into a decision yet. We want to give you time to think this through. Which, to me, given Frank's history with big quarterbacks, tells me his first, you know, choice might have been either, as you said, Richardson or Strah. I asked Frank when they drafted Bryce how much convincing did you need and he said he didn't need a lot of convincing but eventually

they became of one accord on Bryce but I did think it was interesting that whole narrative about we want to give Frank time you know just that that whole thing and it's going to come up very soon maybe in a couple hours because they play CJ Stroud this week.

There you go. I want to go back to another scene, and I believe you were there. This is late March. It's the Ohio State Pro Day. And I was there, and I have a history with Frank Reich. He covered his entire tenure in Indianapolis, and he was there. You know, the Panthers made it known. They were going to send their entire team to every Pro Day for these quarterbacks.

The owner went, the coaches went. They have this tremendous staff, right? Josh McCown, Jim Caldwell, Thomas Brown. And at the Ohio State Pro Day, I'd never forget watching Frank just keep his eyes locked on C.J. Stroud and following him around after the workout. Like a kid in high school who's chasing a girl trying to ask her out, it just stood out to me. And I know what Frank's mannerisms are and I know all that. And I know his history, like you mentioned, of big, strong armed quarterbacks. He likes those. You know, he loved Carson Wentz. And he was sold on Carson Wentz. And he pushed for that trade in Indianapolis, despite evidence. that Carson had fallen off. He pushed for Jacob Eason's drafting, despite evidence that Eason wasn't very good in the pocket in terms of processing and movement and all that. So I wonder if it's too soon to ask the question if they picked the wrong guy.

Is it too soon? Maybe. Because they're not going to say it. Well, right. But obviously, six weeks' worth of evidence, both Stroud and Young were off this week. Yeah, I mean, you can make a pretty strong case. I will say a couple things. One, about those pro-day visits.

And I was supposed to go to, I was supposed to go to Tuscaloosa the next day, and I had flight issues. Right. But anyway, you remember, too, David Teper, the owner brought his wife along. And whatever, like, you know, I don't have a problem with that. except if you're going to kind of insert yourself into the football decisions, which a lot of these owners do. You cover one that does. You're just to cover one that does. Thank you.

Yeah, sorry. But I think it's reasonable and has been suggested that David Tapper became enamored with Bryce Young, the player, yes, but also as the face of this franchise. you know, he was just polished. Oh, there's a lot to like for sure. That's right. And I don't want to go too deep into this, but you mentioned processing when it came to, when you were discussing Eason. You remember, like that S2 cognition test, Bryce was off the charts.

David Tepper is a very analytical guy owing to his business background, which he's built into a $20 billion empire. And I think he became very enamored with the process. testing test results. And C.J. Stroud, you know, famously told us the day before the draft, like, look, you know, so what? I'm not a test taker. I guarantee I'm smart enough to win football games. So all that leads back to your question. Is it too early? Maybe a little bit. And I will say this, Bryce, the last two games before the buy looked better. He had his first turnover-free game against Miami.

And yeah, well, so what he did? But he made a lot of good throws that day, too. And, yeah, knee-jerk, Strav looks like he's going to be just terrific. Richardson's going to be good if he stays healthy. And Bryce Young is starting to show me some things here of late. Yeah, these quarterbacks, when they're drafted together in the same class, they kind of are intertwined in a lot of ways for the rest of their career. And like you said, it probably is too early.

And there's a lot of nuance and context. goes into this discussion. And that's why it's really great to have you on because you're there every day. I will add that at that pro day, C.J. Stroud was just tremendous, just very accurate. That's what stands out about him. Everybody there saw that that day. But let's go back to Carolina in August. Bryce Young takes over. What did he look like every day in training camp? We've seen the games, but in training camp, and my biggest worry watching him in the preseason was the protection, was like, can they keep this guy clean? He needs a clean pot. And if they're going to rush up the A and the B gaps and get penetration, he's obviously smaller.

Same thing with Drew B's back in the day. He's going to need a little bit of space to get the ball off. What did he look like in training camp and has anything surprised you with his struggle so far? So it's a great question. And I'm early on in training camp, he looked fine. I mean, you know how it is. They're in a red jersey or in the panthers. It's not real football.

Yeah. But here's where. the first sign of trouble popped up. And it was the joint practices. It ended up being one joint practice because of weather with the jets. And again, the whistle was blowing before that jet's terrific defensive front was, you know, unloading on Bryce. But they were getting in there. And a couple days later, when that hard knocks ran, it was laughable.

It was counting as sacks, right. Yes. Yes. And it's just like, okay. This isn't great. And I think a lot of us, I'll hold my hand up and say I was guilty of this. I think we underestimated the loss of their two starting guards from 2022. Austin Corbett, who came over right after the Rams won their Super Bowl and was terrific last year.

It's really good. Right guard. You know, you don't usually think of the right guard of holding things together, but he was really good. As a run blocker and a pass blocker. He blows out his knee week 17 at New. Week 18 at New Orleans. Their other guard also got hurt that day, came back, started week one, Brady Christensen, and then he blows out his biceps, and he's out for this season.

They get Corbett back probably this week. I mean, they opened his window, so he's going to be activated this week. That's going to help. But I'm glad you brought up the protection, because unlike Cam Newton, whom I covered, he, Bryce does not have the ability to put his hand on the helmet of a 300 pound defensive tackle and escape the pocket. Bryce can dart around a little bit and find a window and kind of go sidearm. But a lot of times when, Zach, when that pocket collapses, he's just getting kind of enveloped into him by it. And then conversely, are there any targets?

They just don't have anything dynamic on the outside in terms of weapons. How much does that play a role in this? That's a role too. And they traded away that receiver to Chicago, you know, and it's... I know. I don't know if they set him up the best way possible in this rookie season not to excuse him of the blame. But there's a lot more that goes into it. No, I know.

And I think in hindsight, if there was any way they could have included, allegedly, supposedly. And myself and our Chicago guys reported this that the Bears asked about Brian Burns and Derek Brown first. I don't know if that. I do believe they asked about them. And the Panthers thinking was we can replace a high-end receiver easier than a high-end edge rusher. And I kind of get that. They tried.

I mean, they didn't take the biggest of swings. Granted. I mean, 33-year-old Adam Thielen, who's been very good, top 10 receivers so far. But he's not. I get that signing. Young quarterback. I get that. He's not doing anything down the field, to your point.

It's all, you know, around the line of scrimmage or eight yards down the field. Can they do anything down the field? With a lot of reasons, like Young's arm, you've got to have protection and you got to have guys you can separate, too. Right. Their separation's terrible. They drafted Jonathan Mingo at Oldness in the second round, hoping they would kind of catch some of that, AJ Brown and D.K. Metcalfe, Old Miss, second round. Receiver Magic. And so far no good.

I don't know. They've been kicking the tires still about this team is, that's not, they know they're not in contention, obviously. but they have looked into acquiring a receiver just in the name of Bryce's development. Right. Problem of as they don't have, as you alluded to earlier, they don't have a lot of draft capital. Right. So let's move forward. They've got the Texans this weekend. Obviously, all eyes will be on the number one and number two overall picks.

But I want to talk about Thomas Brown, who came over from L.A., had some head coaching interviews. He's going to take over play calling. Was that move a surprise to you, the fact that Frank handed that? over because there were times when it wasn't good in indie and we asked the question and he said no I'm not giving up play calling and I had a lot of conversations with Frank over the years about play calling and his approach and all that and it definitely didn't seem like something he wanted to give up was it a surprise to you and what does Thomas Brown need to do differently to get something going like you said they're not going to make a run but at the end of this season they want to see

the arrow pointing up for Bryce Young how do they get there with a new play caller I was very surprised because really you absolutely that's kind of his baby that play sheet frank loves that in the short time i've been around frank like it's clear like that you said it best like that's his thing and i i did you know the day they announced him he said look i'm going to hand it off at some point thomas brown like we came he took this job with the idea that he would be a play caller someday but i didn't think it was going to be six games into the season. I don't think anybody of them wanted that, right?

You don't want it six games in the seat. That means something's going wrong. It does. And Frank maintained that David Tepard didn't force him to do it, but we know how that works. Like, owners can quietly let, you know, kind of, you know, let it be known what they would like to see happen. And I don't know how Thomas Brown's going to be. I can tell you he is a sharp dude. he has a terrific pedigree having worked and played for Mark Richt at Georgia,

and then he was the OC at Miami when Mark Richt was at Georgia. Then he goes, obviously, to Sean McVey's staff, gets to learn a couple seasons under Sean. And he, listen, Zach, when this guy comes in for our dealings with him, he commands a room. That matters. It matters to players, too. Absolutely.

And so I liked what Frank did in their last game at Miami, and that was due a little bit more downhill run game, which set up some play action. And frankly, it's what Steve Wilkes and Ben McAdoe last year did last year to kind of keep the Panthers relevant after the Matt Rule debacle. And so I don't know. But the Rams, Thomas Brown's background is more outside zone stuff. not so much a lot of downhill.

So it'll be interesting. Like, again, I knew he was going to get a shot. I didn't think it would be, you know, the middle of October. Like you wrote in your most recent article about Thomas Brown taking over, when he interviewed with the Panthers in January, his last stop in the building was Scott Fitter, the GM. And Fitterer said, how would you rank this year's quarterback class? And Brown, according to them, said, Bryce Young.

That's what everyone is saying in Carolina. it's pretty evident they believe in this guy. It is six games in. How does this season end? And I wonder if they're able to point that arrow in a positive direction because games like Sunday against the Texans are going to tell us a lot. It's a sort of a snapshot. And if this goes poorly for the Panthers,

it's just not going to help them down the line, considering the capital they gave up. And the fact that at the end of the day, a lot of times it's just the eye test. And when people just watch games, you can see who the better player is. I wonder what the near and far future of the Panthers looks like with this seismic move in the rearview mirror.

So the schedule does soften up a bit after the buy. The Texans have been very better than I think most of us thought they'd be. Then they've got the Colts here in Charlotte without Anthony Richardson. Yeah. I mean, it's hard to pick the Panthers in any of these games. try to anything. Those feel like winnable. They do. And there's some others too. I mean, they get Green Bay at home. You tend to think they'll split maybe with like the bucks and falcons. So I kind of feel like they can end this season on an upswing. I'm not, you know, that's like four wins,

something like that. I'm not talking about anything crazy. But if they can look to this, you know, you said it, if they can look at Bryce Young in week 18 and say, we got our guy. Like he, you know, it wants the protection firmed up. You know, once he was able to breathe a little bit, if they get him another weapon, if you can just say, we feel good about this pick, then I think you can live with a 4 and 13 record. If somehow, like you said, these winnable games go the other direction and they are threatening to become the first O and 17 team in league history, I don't know what the hell, David. All bets are off.

Yes. That's not why he brought Frank Reich in and paid a healthy sum for the coaching staff around him, right? And they went out and got a who's who of offensive coaches. Yeah. It's going to be fascinating. I know. And, you know, I told people, I think I said this to you at the pro-Dade Ohio State, like,

I didn't really want another quarterback retread like a Derek Carr. Who they talked to, you know, at the combine. Frank has been through that, my man. He knows. Yes. I was ready for a different narrative. I didn't exactly think it was going to go this poorly. But, you know, here we are.

No, you did he. And I'll share this. Frank won't mind. He got the Panthers job, and I texted him and said, congratulations and then said, I just hope they give you the same quarterback two years in a row. Because he was in Indy for five years and he had five or six different guys. I lost track after a while. And they did the retread, like you said, Carson Wentz, Matt Ryan.

It got exhausting. We'll see what the arrow is doing at the end of the season. If you answer that question, if you answer the Bryce Young question, at the very least, then you know what to do, right? Then you know where to go help him. Go get a receiver. Go get some offensive line help. At least that helps you solve the biggest riddle in sports is who's your franchise quarterback. But I'm not sure they're there yet, and I'm not sure they'll be there at the end of the season,

because they have not been good and they have not been consistent so far. But thanks for hopping on, Joe. That was fun. It's going to be a fun one in a lot of ways. It's going to be interesting to see how he stacks up against C.J. Stroud on Sunday. These guys are probably going to downplay it, but let's be honest. Both of them know who they're facing this weekend. So it's going to be a fun one.

Thanks for hopping on, and we'll catch up with you down the line. Yeah, man. Thanks for having me, Zat. And that's a wrap. On week seven of Kiefer in the Beats, I want to thank Joe Biscaglia in Buffalo, Jeff Zribick in Baltimore, and Joe Person and Charlotte for their insight, knowledge, and opinions. On the teams they cover, we will have a full slate of shows this week between Robert and Nate, in the pocket with Chase Daniel, prospect of pros with Dane Bruegler, and the Football GM podcast with Randy Miller and Mike Sandow.

So anxious for you guys to dig in. Thanks for listening, as always, and we will catch up with you guys after once. Week 8. This was the Athletic Football Show.