The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Keefer and the Beats: The Broncos' climb, the Bears looming QB dilemma, and the Cardinals' Kyler question

Episode Date: November 21, 2023

From 1-5 to 5-5? The misconceptions of Russell Wilson and Sean Payton, and how they've turned things around in Denver, with Broncos beat writer Nick Kosmider; the questions facing the Bears, starting with Justin Fields playing for his future, with beat writer Adam Jahns; and finally, a look into Kyler Murray's return in Arizona and how it will play into the Cardinals' long-term thinking with Doug Haller.Follow Zak on Twitter: @zkeeferFollow Adam on Twitter: @adamjahnsFollow Nick on Twitter: @NickKosmiderFollow Doug on Twitter: @doughallerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeNew to Etsy? Use the code HOLIDAY10 for ten percent off your first purchase. That’s code HOLIDAY10. Maximum discount value of fifty dollars. Expires December 31st, 2023. See terms at Etsy dot com slash terms.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome back to the athletic football show. This is Zach Kiefer. We have an excellent, excellent show for you guys today. Somehow, 11 weeks down already in the NFL season. Thanksgiving week is upon us. And this is when things really start to get real. And the good teams make their push for the postseason.

And the bad teams make their push for the top of the draft. We're going to dig into both sides of the coin in today's episode. Yesterday, in Charlotte, the two men who built the Dallas Cowboys dynasty of the 1990s finally squashed their decades-long beef. Only took them 30 years. But Jerry Jones has finally relented and he will induct Jimmy Johnson into the Cowboys Ring of Honor and then both watched the Cowboys absolutely hammer the Panthers for their sixth win of 20 or more this season.

Carolina, not good for a lot of reasons. In Buffalo, the bills got right by hammering the Jets 32 to 6, five days after 5. firing offensive coordinator Ken Dorsey, though I'm really not sure how much a win over the Jets means anymore. They're moving on from Zach Wilson to Tim Boyle, and it just feels like that season is finally unraveling in New York. In the Bay Area, the 49ers won their second straight, and Brock Purdy was again excellent.

The Chargers found a way to lose another close one. This one in Green Bay, 23 to 20 to the Packers. It's L.A.'s fifth defeat this season by a field goal or less. Brandon Staley is getting testy with reporters afterwards, and it's pretty obvious that his seat is getting warmer by the minute. The Chargers, four and six, they have one of the best quarterbacks in football and their third highest paid defense in the league, and yet they feel like they're the same team every single year. And by that I mean a talented group with a very good quarterback who underachieves. We'll see where that goes over the next couple weeks. The Detroit Lions are eight and two for the first time since the John F. Kenney's.

administration way back 1962. After a wild win over the Chicago Bears yesterday, they scored two touchdowns in the game's final four minutes. For my money, Dan Campbell is your coach of the year. We've got seven games left, but still, I just can't think of anybody doing a better job right now. We'll catch the Lions on national TV on Thanksgiving against the Packers. The Texans keep winning. The Browns keep winning. And as imperfect as their victories were yesterday, it's going to be really fascinating to see if these teams can keep it up. Houston, obviously, first, first year coach, rookie quarterback. And then in Cleveland, they lose Deshawn Watson.

They find a way to beat the Steelers yesterday, 13 to 10. It was ugly, but they're not giving it back. Interesting to see what Cleveland can do with that lights out defense the rest of the way, because they're very much in it in the AFC as of right now. But today, we'll dig into three different franchises with three unique quarterback situations. One that seems resolved, at least for the time being, and two that are very, very much still up in the air with some unanswered questions we probably won't get resolution for for a couple of months.

We'll start in Chicago where Justin Fields, according to our beat writer, Adam Johns, is essentially playing for his future the next six games. Currently, the Bears have two picks in the top four, including first overall. Thank you, Carolina. And the Caleb Williams-Drake-May question is very much looming over a franchise that hasn't gotten it right at quarterback, and God knows how long. Adam recently scouted both Williams and May and shares his thoughts on what he saw, what learned what he felt at those games.

And he also shares what he thinks the Bears want to happen in the coming weeks and months. Second, we'll head to Denver, where our Broncos beat writer, Nick Cosmiter, is covering a very different team right now than he was earlier in the season. The Broncos have flipped a 1-5 record to a 5-5 record and are very much alive in the AFC playoff race. This is their longest winning streak since the Peyton Manning days. Something's working. So we asked Nick, what's going on?

Great insight from Nick on the misconceptions around Sean Payton and Russell Wilson and why this is working right now. Finally, we'll chat with our Arizona columnist Doug Heller about Kyler-Kyler's return in the desert and the question that franchise will face in the offseason. Keep Kyler and his $230 million contract or use that top pick. Currently, number two overall on whichever quarterback prospect doesn't go number one. Again, they're in a very similar spot to the Bears. difference being they have their quarterback on a huge deal. Doug also peeled the curtain back a little bit on Jonathan Ganna, his start, and what's changed in a big way since he took over for Cliff Creenesbury

in February. All right, Kiefer in the Beats, Week 11, let's go. From Chicago, Illinois, one of our esteemed Bears beat riders, Adam Johns. Adam, how you doing? Make it back from the Motor City after another debilitating loss for the Bears, which was actually a win in the long run, probably. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, probably. Yeah, I'm doing great. I'm doing great. I'm not sure how they're doing in Lake Forest right now as we speak, but I feel great, Zach, good to be here. Glad to have you on. It's been a season for the Bears. There's been so much chatter, mainly off the field. There's been plenty on the field, but you come with unique perspective. This jumped out at one of you, at me from one of your recent stories. And it's one of the reasons I wanted to have you on today. You have covered games with quarterbacks such as Justin Fields, Mitch Trubisky, Jay Cutler, Jason Campbell, Josh McCown, Jimmy Closs, Brian Hoyer. We're not even halfway done. Matt Barkley, Mike Glennon, Chase Daniel, Andy Dalton, Nick Foles, Trevor.

Simeon and Nathan Peterman. How does that make you feel just hearing all those names? I'm listening. I'm feeling like, is he missing anybody? Oh, yeah, there's Matt Barkley. Okay, you said Brian Hoyer. This is from your story, so if you missed it, then I missed it. Yeah, yeah.

But it speaks to the last 10 to 15 years in Chicago. Yes, yes. It's the story of the Bears, right? It's the quarterback. It's the inability to find that frame. franchise quarterback. And all I know is change. Like all I know is failure in a sense in terms of covering this team.

Like Jay Cutler, I covered his last, I think, four or five years with the team. And he brought, like he was so polarizing. But he brought such, like if anything, he brought stability to a position that even before him was a problematic position. Like names that I didn't cover, it's like Rex Grossman, Jim Miller, Kyle Oren, and it goes on and on and on, like Henry Burris, Chris Chandler, Shane Matthews. We could go on and on and on, but it's the story of the Chicago Bears. They can't find their quarterback. And here we are again, which I feel like is a monumental moment for this franchise, if not only Ryan Poles and the front office, but this is such an interesting spot for them. wrote this yesterday. They blew a lead late. I thought Justin Fields was pretty good in his return,

but you wrote this. Sunday was the start of Fields audition to be the Bears starter in 2024 and potentially beyond. It was a good start too. The opponent matters in the evaluation. They're playing one of the best teams of the NFC. Detroit. Is that where you're at with this? They're three and eight right now. The season's lost. They've got two picks in the top four. Are the next six or seven games going to determine if Justin Fields is here for their future? I want to say yes. And when you put it that way, it sounds so unfair because, well, if you just look at last season, the Bears were an awful football team.

They just were. They were tearing apart Ryan Paces. Not Ryan Pace's team. They traded their best players. Rokwon Smith is an example. Now he's on the Ravens, one of the best players on the Ravens. It's great. Yes, absolutely. They got rid of everything they kind of pace built. I mean, that even started with

Cleo Mac. So they were tearing things down. So judging fields by last year just felt unfair. And I think the team is with this too. You can't fairly judge who he is as a quarterback just because he didn't have a lot last year. The offensive line wasn't good. Now, eventually that running game came around, but you needed help at receiver. It needed help in a lot of different areas. It was his first year with Lugetze. This year was supposed to be different. And then the Bears just had so many injuries right off the bat.

And then when it just looked like when Justin Fields was starting to turn things around, good games against the Broncos, good game against the commanders. Then he gets hurt. Yeah. And that's part of his story too. You just can't stay healthy for a full season. So then he returned for these final seven games. it's the best team, the best situation, really he's ever been a part of with the Bears.

The offensive line is playing well. He's got DJ Moore. The defense is even playing well. And I think you saw some of that throughout that Lions game. So it sounds unfair to cram in this evaluation of Justin Fields into seven games, but because of that injury, this is what we have. This is the best situation he's had. They're three and eight and they're playing out the string of a wasted season. That's sort of the last three years. That's Justin Fields' career in Chicago, fair or not. Let me ask you this, what do you think the Bears want to happen? Do they want Justin Fields to play well? And then that gives them so much flexibility with, let's say they get the second pick and the fourth pick. The Panthers are, or maybe the first,

they're probably going to get the first pick because the Panthers are terrible. That gives them the option to go get Marvin Harrison, Jr., and add a weapon that we have. haven't seen in a while or, you know, beef up the offensive line or whatever. Or do they want him to just, they don't want to root against their own player. But if he doesn't get the job done, that makes it a clean break. That makes it like, we got to go get a quarterback. That makes the decision easier. What do you think they want to happen? I still think the best case scenario, it's on the table. Is Justin Fields playing well enough where you feel good about him at least for 2024, right? Maybe you don't pick him.

up his fifth year option, maybe you just go back to him for one more year, then you make that big QB decision down the line. And that could be extending him, just like the Daniel Jones path, right? Like they don't pick up the fifth year option, but they do eventually. It's dangerous. But if you're looking at the Bears roster, or at least at their situation with the two top five picks, you're looking at Marvin Harrison Jr. or one of the top offensive tackles or the best pass rusher on the board. The Bears need blue chip players. They need difference makers on both sides of the ball. So to have some type of answer at the most important position in sports, like I think the Bears are looking for it. But at the same time, you have this, this Bears regime

didn't draft Justin Fields. And are you going to be in this situation? Again, like you can't predict the future, at least not two or three years in advance, but this year you have two top five picks with Caleb Williams and Drake May there. Like, what do you do? Is this your quarterback? There's one of them blow you away where you move on from Justin Fields. It's such a conundrum, really, because you need blue chip players, but then again, the quarterback is the most important position in sports, and you have this amazing situation in front of you. I wonder if you can afford to pass on those guys. In five years, are you going to be like, why didn't we take one of those guys? And in between your coverage of the Bears, you've been moonlighting as a college football reporter

for us a little bit. I wanted to ask you about going to South Beach. Ben, Notre Dame USC to watch Caleb Williams, and then secondly, going down to Chappah Hill to watch Drake May. You saw Caleb Williams probably one of his worst games. And what's become a very disappointing season? You know, USC started 6 and 0, and now they're 7 and 5. What did you learn about Caleb Willidge on the field and then off the field? From, granted, it's one game, but your eyes matter a lot in that situation. Yeah, yeah, I did a lot of research or a lot of, like I asked around the league a lot. Like even before the game and then after the game, even during,

you're trying to get a feel for what, for what evaluators think, you know, like you don't want it to frame your own opinion, but these scouts have scouted him longer than I have. What I wanted was to build like a full picture, like to pretend to be a scout in a sense, to see what he's doing before the game. What is he doing on the sideline and whatnot?

And, you know, it's funny. Then I went and saw Drake May, who had a better game against Duke. And I think where I'm at with, like, those evaluations is a scout buddy was texting me after. He goes, you saw Williams at his worst and may have one of his best. And this is a problem with scouting. Like those feelings that you felt in those moments stick with you. And they're part of your evaluation.

And you try to find more answers in the tape. You find more answers in interviews you do with staff members with those respective teams, that being USC and North Carolina. But those feelings that you have, even for Scouts, like for Scouts, this is a real problem. Those feelings that you experience live in those games, they stick with you. And I just can't help to think like that Caleb Williams game, there was like four or five GMs, including Ryan Poles himself, sitting in that press box, right behind reporters watching that game. They're on the field before that game.

They saw that happen against Notre Dame, which has a few, might have a few NFL players, but that's a good defense. Caleb Williams is going to face good defenses in the league. So I think that's where I'm at. Like as we frame this quarterback conversation going forward, like, can I shake those feelings of covering those games? And then, like, how do evaluators feel about those games? You know, when they turn on that Duke tape about Drake May,

they turn on that Notre Dame tape for Caleb Williams. Like, how do they get through that game? Like, if you're looking at Caleb Williams for the number one overall, pick if you're the Bears, Giants, Patriots, what have you, like, how do you get through that game? Then everything after it, because he hasn't won much after that. So I think that's where I'm stuck as I, as you said, I moonlighted as a college reporter for a couple weekends. That's so interesting that you pointed that out because I've heard the same thing from Scouts. After they draft a kid in April, we'll talk to him and they'll say, I was at this game and I remember this scene and it stayed with me.

It stuck with me. And it's why we wanted to draft him or it's why we had to pass. on another guy. And those are such fascinating moments. After the North Carolina win over Duke, you wrote, May delivered in the clutch again, again, and again. And that's the type of stuff you want to write about a Chicago Bears quarterback but rarely ever get to. I feel like during this draft cycle, whoever has the top pick, these guys are going to go back and forth, back and forth. It's going to be Caleb Williams week. It's going to be Drake May's week. It's going to be, it feels like they're talented enough to have a debate that's going to linger into April. My question is who's coaching the Bears next year? Because Matt Iberflis, under a lot of fire, under a lot of fire

in Chicago, they haven't played well on either side of the ball. I wonder if a coaching change changes this team's thinking about the quarterback or if it's just this is too big, it doesn't matter who's coaching the team. You know, that is such part of like the long, like the larger conversation with the Bears too, Zach, is rarely have they ever, like, paired up GM coach quarterback. That's what Kevin said. And it was, like, it's been going on for 15 years. Like, it's always off a little bit.

Yes. It's part of the Justin Fields problem. It was Ryan Pace and Matt Nagy who drafted him. And then they were fired after one year. Like, this is what the Bears do. So there's that clean break argument. if you're going to go after your next quarterback, maybe you should go after your next coach first

and have him play an active role that evaluation of his quarterback. Right? Like, can we go through this all together for the first time? Like, I get that fields, naggy, and pace all lined up for one year. But at that point, they had already missed on Trubisky. There were so many other things going on.

It felt like one last swing at trying to get this right. And then they didn't even like practice Justin Fields with the starters until like week three. And then he had the Browns game and they had a lot of ups and downs. So many missteps. Yes, yes. So like even though you had that alignment for one year, like Nagy already had like one foot out the door. Right.

Pace had been there through Fox and then Nagy through the Tribisky, you know, selection or the trade up and selection in the first rounds. So, yeah, that's the big question. And you know what? Like Ryan Poles got it was a couple weeks ago. Like he gave, it wasn't your typical vote of confidence? Like it was a very long, elongated response where he tried to argue his case for Andy Eberfluse in a sense.

And I think we'll probably get more of that going forward if he likes how the defense is improving. But, yeah, Zach, that is the big thing. If you reach a point two or three weeks from now where you realize that Justin Fields is not your quarterback for 2024 and the evaluations coming in from your scouts are so high on May or Williams and you're thinking about moving on. Like if you have a higher grade on May and Williams, then you have for your current quarterback, like you have to take one of those guys, right?

You have to. But what do you do with the coach? So we'll see. That's such a long, like we could go a full 60 minutes on a podcast about the... And you will. I imagine in the next couple of weeks and months. I imagine there's a case to be made for doing it either way. You go get an offensive coach. Ben Johnson's name's going to get floated around a lot. The OC in Detroit is doing a great job. You go get an offensive coach and either he resuscitates Justin Fields, if that's the right word, or he grows up with this new quarterback, Drake, May, Caleb Williams, whoever it's going to be. But I want to get your sense for the temperature in Chicago right now. Great Sports Town. I imagine they're just opinions that vary, right? There's so many different situations going on.

You've got the coach, you've got the GM, and you've got this quarterback debate. And our colleague John Greenberg wrote, this is how we started, it's calm. If the Bears won a blueprint for their future, I have a simple three-step process. He wrote, step one, hire Jim Harbaugh. Step two, draft Marvin Harrison, Jr., step three, profit. What is the temperature in the town right now with regards to potentially bringing back a former Bears quarterback, Jim Harbaugh? Who knows what's going to happen at Michigan, but it wouldn't stun me if he finally did bolt back to the NFL after this mess at Michigan. Sticking with Fields, going to get Marvin Harrison.

Do the fans want Fields to play this out? Do they want to go get one of these kids? Where's the fan base, and does that matter at all in the Bears' minds? Well, I guess it depends which fan you talk to. Because there's some fans that saw Justin Fields have a great game in Detroit. And there's other fans that look at his stat line and say, well, 169 passing yards isn't good enough in today's NFL. And he rarely hits 200 passing yards. I get it.

I get both sides. So I think Bears fan them, as always with quarterbacks, it's split on Justin Field. where I think those two camps unite is they want everybody fired. They've been through a lot in their defense. Yes, that's the temperature in Chicago right now, Chicago area, what have you, is they've had enough of this, of at least this coaching regime. Six wins is six wins. They want more.

This isn't working. I feel like there might be a small portion who see the defensive progress, see some of the consistency on defense with the running game as like as signs of hope. But that is a really small part of Bears fandom right now. If I had to sum it up, yeah, everybody. Bears fans want everybody fired right now. At least when it comes to the coaching staff, I feel like, everyone kind of knows that GMs get a second chance in terms of like coaching hires.

Yeah. Ryan Poles shouldn't be absolved of criticism. But yeah, as far as the coaching staff, everybody wants to, everybody seems to want a house cleaning. Well, like you said, it seems like this is a six-game audition for Justin Fields. And if not moving on from him is what happens in the spring, certainly a decision is going to have to be made. They're either going to have to stick with him and then go a different direction in the draft with the receiver or a skill position player. whatever, or they're going to have to go big and go Caleb Williams or go Drake May. I wonder where we're at in April.

I wonder what the conversation looks like because they're going to have to make a decision on a coach first before they dig into the quarterbacks. But Justin Fields playing for his future in Chicago, which is a situation you have written about many a times in the past. I'll get you out of here on this. Does he have enough to keep it? Can he show enough to not throw for 169 yards? And I thought he played pretty well yesterday.

There were some drops. There's a lot of context that goes into it, and you know the context better than most. He has the talent, but can he finally stay healthy and deliver enough to keep his job? Yeah, I think the ultimate context, like when it comes, what's the cliche? At the end of the day, it's about wins and losses, right? And just fields for as good as he's been in a lot of these games, even dating back to last season, the wins, they just, aren't there. And if you're the Bears, you have to seriously ask why, why? You know, for as well as he's played, why isn't this play turning into wins? Now, in Detroit, I believe he played

well enough to win. I think the defense has to shut the door on the lines. I think it's fair to ask that defense, which has been playing well, to prevent the Lions from scoring two touchdowns in two minutes and 35 seconds. But I guess that's the conundrum, right? Like, it's still another loss for Justin Fields. And it leaves the door open for the critics of Justin Fields to be like, well, you know, maybe he doesn't have it. So wins and losses, they're everything in the NFL.

And I think that's what it's going to come down to. Like his evaluation must include some wins. If the wins outnumber the losses, then I think we're talking about him being the quarterback at 2024. Dangerous game for the Bears to play. You could make the argument that they won yesterday in Detroit, despite losing the game. The current NFL draft order, Bears picking number one via the Panthers who were one and nine and just look terrible. The Cardinals are at number two.

They're two and nine, Patriots at three, and the Bears are at four with their own picks. So lots of potential with what they can do with two picks in the top four. but again, lots of potential to screw it up, which the bears have done for a long time. Adam, thanks for hopping on. We're going to have you on again because the bears are just endlessly fascinating as we get closer and closer to draft season. Thanks, ma'am. Thanks, Zach. All right, from Denver, Colorado winning streak.

Denver Broncos are Broncos writer, Nick Cosmiter. Nick, I think the last time we talked, the Broncos were either 0 and 2 or 0 and 3. The entire NFL world was laughing at them. All the money and draft capital they spent on Russell Wilson, and all the money and draft capital they sit on Sean Payton. And here we are, 11 weeks into the season, they're 5 and 5. So I guess the first question, what has changed? Yeah, you know, Zach, I think part of it was adjusting to Sean Payton's style

with a locker room that had played for somebody last year that was his polar opposite. I think there probably wasn't enough given to how abrupt a change and how significant a change. that was, whether it was from a schematic standpoint, a stylistic leadership standpoint, an expectation standpoint, all of those things, I think, took time. But Sean Payton said all along, you know, he referenced some of his early New Orleans teams and saying that, like, you have to be able to see it. His favorite thing to say is confidence comes from demonstrated ability. And he had this thought that is that once the Broncos started experiencing some success,

it would be able to build on it because they would see the, they were doing the things required to win games. And they're now doing that in a way that we haven't seen from the Broncos, really ever since Gary Kubiak was the coach of this team in 2016. That's a long time ago. It is. That's the last time they had a four-game winning streak. So none of this is coincidence in terms of them playing in a very specific, certain way,

understanding more than they have in the past, how you win games, how you lose games. and I think that sort of, they're building a larger reservoir from which to pull when they get in some of these late game, late game situations. That's interesting you point that out because it's hard to see that from the outside. All we see are these three hour windows on Sundays. Did you hear that from the players? Did you see that in the locker room? Did you feel that in terms of guys being like, yeah, it's way different than it was last year. And it was going to take a little bit of time.

Like everybody wants like microwave success. And Sean Payton goes and he's going to fix Russell Wilson in like four quarters. And it doesn't usually work like that. Did you hear it on the ground out there in Denver in terms of like this is way different than it was under Hackett? Yeah, definitely. And Zach, one of the biggest, the interesting ones was in Kansas City. It was week six. And Denver, they fell in that game, 19 to 8.

That was the loss that put them at one in five. And statistically, at that time. time, they were more or less eliminated from the playoffs. I think our New York Times predictor gave them a less than 1% chance to make the playoffs from that spot has only been done, I think, four times in NFL history since the merger. I covered one of those teams. I was going to ask you about that, but keep going. But in the locker room that night and talking to Sean Payton afterwards,

there was a sense that they were about to turn a corner. They did some things, especially defensively in that game that started to, to, you know, kind of lay this blueprint for how they were going to win games, right? They're going to force turnovers. They're going to make that a gigantic emphasis. All teams do, but they, you know, that they drilled it, talked about it in a way that was put it at the forefront. And then conversely, on the offensive side, they switched to this kind of game plan in which ball security above all else was going to be vital. And to his credit, Russell Wilson has bought into that.

He's averaging the fewest air yards per attempt in his career by a wide margin. He's throwing to running backs as much as he's throwing to wide receivers. But he has wholeheartedly bought in willingly, even eagerly, into that, those sort of, you know, kind of understandable constraints Sean Payton has put on this team, given its personnel at the moment. So you kind of started to see a shift and understanding. And then, you know, when they start to get the wins, you, you beat Kansas City two weeks later for the first time since 20. 2015, it just starts doing something for you. And that's, I think, what we're starting to see from the Broncos.

I'm glad you brought that up. And that's so fascinating because we hear so much coach speak and players speak in a season. But like you said, you know, hardly no one has ever come back from one in five to make the playoffs. Now, the Broncos haven't made the playoffs, but they're five and five. And they're very much in the playoff conversation. I think it's fair to say. I covered that 2018 Colts team. And I still remember to this day what Andrew Luck would say.

after all these close losses even when they're foot one in five he'd be like look trust me like we're doing the right things we're close to turning the corner and it's going to happen and we're all kind of like i don't know man like you just got beat by the jets by 20 points like it's just hard to see that let me ask you when they're one in five and one of those losses was was to the jets and at daniel hackett did you believe things were going to turn did you really see this happening or was it kind of just like man you got buffalo coming up you've got kansas city who you ever you ever beaten since Peyton Manning was there. And you got, you know, all these teams that are, they just look like losses.

Were you buying into something happening positive or is it just kind of like, this is going nowhere? And you guys are just believing something that ain't going to happen. You know, I thought that they were going to have a chance to get better. But I thought that there was a pretty hard ceiling on that. And large part, because of how badly the defense was playing. They were playing in a way that like didn't give you, just didn't give you a chance to be competitive enough.

And that I think is one of the more remarkable parts of this turnaround is that this was a defense. We all know they gave up 70 points to the dolphins, but they gave up 35 points at home to the commanders the week before that. They go on the road and give up 28 points to a Chicago Bears team, made them look like, you know, the 2013 Broncos or something, the way that they were moving the ball that day. You know, then they give up a huge amount of rushing yards to the jets, the team that hadn't been able to get anything going. And you just said, man, I don't know if it's, it's, it's, James Joseph not being the right fit for this scheme or what the, the problem was. As it's gone forward, we've learned how much Justin Simmons is vital to what they do on the back end. He missed the Dolphins game.

He missed the Bears game. They had some other injuries that were, they're causing problems. They also kind of made some of the wrong personnel choices early in the year, starting to Mari Mathis at outside corner instead of the veteran Fabian Moreau, who's come in and solidified that position. Jaquan McMillan has been a turnover making machine. He was inactive week one before they eventually moved him into the starting nickel role, and he's been excellent.

So they had a couple close personnel calls that they made the wrong decisions on, but to their credit quickly enough, you know, made some changes there. And all those things have started to kind of lift the vote a little bit. And they're just taking the ball away. Like they weren't early. And obviously that's one of the easiest, simplest ways of predicting success in the NFL. the team that wins the turnover battle. But we saw that a little bit last night

in their win against the Vikings. I can't get you out of here without talking about the quarterback. Obviously, he's a polarizing figure in the NFL, and I didn't think he was very good early. He was terrible last year. I'm not ready to say that Russell Wilson is playing at his Seattle-level peak, but he's certainly been better. And the big-time crucial moments throws,

Cortland Sutton last week against the bills. Cortland-Sund last night, There's this great quote you got. I looked up, Sutton said, and the ball was finding me. Now, that's a compliment to a quarterback. What have you seen in Russell? And you mentioned, like, even Sean Payton said, like, he hit the receivers, or excuse me, the running backs. Like, what are the subtle little things that you've seen for a guy that's changed the perception about how he's playing?

I mean, 19 touchdowns and four interceptions. That speaks for itself. Yeah, I think last year, you could see on the field the tug and pull between, you know, what Nathaniel Hackett was. trying to do what Russell Wilson thought that they were trying to do. And just the lack of them being on the same page resulted in an offense that you couldn't find its identity, you know, if you had a magnifying glass. Now, I think Russell Wilson, there's no doubt that he is, he has bought into what Sean Payton wants to do and has done that willingly.

And I think that's in part because, you know, the one, the times that, the times that Sean Payton's lets Russell Wilson be Russell Wilson is in these four, you know, fourth quarter two minute drives where he continues to be one of the best quarterbacks in the league in terms of like you look at EPA per dropback in the fourth quarter you know his is his passerating the fourth quarter he makes those plays he's continuing to do that as he has in his entire career and so I think I think that's been kind of the biggest thing that their partnership I think has gone a lot more smoothly than maybe people thought and as I'm writing for tomorrow that it is going to

have to evolve, though. At a certain point, the turnover's, the turnover faucet is going to get shut off a little bit. Our teams are going to stop, yep, and teams or teams are going to stop kicking to Marvin Mims who leads the league in punt return average and kickoff return average and has set up the Broncos in a lot of good field position. Vikings didn't kick to him last night. The offense is going to have to stand on its own more often. And that is going to have to mean, you know, maybe pushing more, more of that trust towards

Russell Wilson to kind of find that offense a little bit earlier. But by and large, this is going to be their formula going forward. They're okay winning ugly. They're okay winning tough. They're okay having it come down to the end of the game. And can you live on that Razor's Edge for seven more weeks? I guess we'll see. But they have certainly made it a lot more interesting as we head into Thanksgiving. They have to like their spot right now compared to where they were five or six weeks ago. But you mentioned something interesting about that marriage between Russell Wilson and Sean Payton going better than most assumed. I might consider myself among that camp. I don't know these guys like you do.

You're there every day. You covered Russell's last year, which was the worst of his career. And then Sean Payton obviously comes in and it's a firestorm during training camp. He makes those comments to USA Today. All that buzz. From my end, it feels like these guys are such different people, really different personalities. Do they really get along that well? Because it looks like it's working on the field, which is a credit to both for sure.

But it just feels like these guys are really different. Like how does that work from what you've been able to tell? Yeah, they are right. Like Sean Payton has this sort of, you know, biting sarcastic personality. Russell Wilson is the eternal. I just never describe him that way as biting or sarcastic, Russ. Not from an I know. No, yeah, no, no.

That is not Russ at all. But it's become sort of, I don't know, it's almost like an opposite to track kind of thing. Like they are very different people in terms of their, the way they go about it. But I think the thing about Russell Wilson is he truly is obsessed with winning. I mean, you've got to remember, this is a guy who for the decade of his career in Seattle was in the playoffs all but two years, winning record all but one year. You know, perennial pro bowler, like getting to big playoff games. like that that is how he is he's wired. And for all the talk about, you know, him,

him wanting to cook and that's why he left Seattle, it's really about winning for him. And that's where they find the common ground. And so I think that's why it's been easier for Russell Wilson to like, hey, Sean Payton has a plan. It's clear. It makes sense. We're starting to see the results.

So I'm going to give myself to that. And I think Sean Payton has said multiple times that he has appreciated how much how much buy in Russell Wilson has had. Coaches that I've talked to said, you can't get upset with this guy the way that he comes into the building. It is just that positive energy, the work coming first and all that other kind of stuff. So because of that, that's the common ground that they've been able to build. What's the biggest misconception about both?

I think it's partly that, the latter point about Russell Wilson and just sort of... Yeah, kind of tipped on it. His legacy desire, right? Because he's set it. He wants, at other times, like, wants to be viewed as some of these other great quarterbacks. Exactly. But I think the shift has been, like, understanding that, like, you're going to have

to do that in your own way. Like, you're not going to be like Drew Breeze as much as Russell Wilson, you know, looked up to him and still does. You're not going to do it like Tom Brady. I think what there's been is, the misconception might have been that Sean Payne was going to say, this is how we've always won games. I think he came in and he had said this way before he took the job in an interview with Colin Cowherd. He's like, if I was kind of building Russell Wilson back up, I would find his greatest hits

and then figure out how we incorporate those into what we do. And I think he has, even though he's put some governors on this offense to be sure, he's a loud Russell Wilson and really reiterated with him like this is what you're good at. You're good at the off schedule plays. You're good at climbing up under the pressure, which is how he's hit Cortland Sutton for some of these eight red zone touchdowns this year. So I think it's just, again, that that mutual ground that they found that people probably didn't recognize was going to be there.

And when they start one in five, you don't see that. But even during that start, like you never heard like the murmurs about, I think Diana Rusini had a, in one of her pieces, talked about how like, in that, in that building, all you're hearing is that that relationship is going well, even amid the one in five start. And as they've started to climb, I think that's become clear. Yeah, that's interesting because like you said, like they're still the same team. It just takes time. And like you said, it was such a culture shift.

And I can see like Drew Brees and Sean Payton. I can see that working. Maybe it's just because they were together for so long. Russell Wilson, Sean Payton took a little. bit of time. But there's certainly a player right now in the AFC. Last thing before I let you go, they're currently in the 10th spot. It's all jumbled at the bottom, but there's a lot of, there's a lot of teams that can go up and down, right? Like Cleveland's at the 5 right now, but they lost their quarterback. Pittsburgh's at the 7 and their offense is trash. Buffalo's at the 8.

They play better yesterday. The Colts are there. They don't have their starting quarterback. Then there's Denver. Then there's Cincinnati who lost their starting quarterback. Real quick, before I get you out of here, give me a reason they make the playoffs and give me a reason why they don't. Well, I'll give you a reason that they make it is because they have the sort of matchups coming up that they have the opportunity. They have the big tiebreakers. They play the Browns who you just mentioned on Sunday, right?

Browns are 7 and 3. Broncos are 5 and 5. You can gain a game and get the tiebreaker in that scenario. Then they go to Houston, who's 6 and 4, another team that's going to be in that wild card race because I think we think Jacksonville is going to win that division, although Houston certainly still has a chance there. So you have the games against the, the AFC wild card contenders. You're already won up in the head-to-head on Buffalo. And so, and then you have two more games against the Chargers and another against the Raiders. So you have those AFC opportunities to win.

And I think, again, the way that they're playing, the confidence that they have, those are real opportunities to do that. Reason that you don't make it is because the margin for error remains very small. I don't think you're getting into a AFC wildcard spot with anything worse than a 10 and 7 record and maybe even 10 and 7 doesn't do it. So they can really only slip up once, maybe twice in these final seven games, which includes a road game at Houston, like I said, no picnic at all with the way C.J. Stroud is playing, who you've come to know real well, Zach. and a game in Detroit, which we know how the lions are playing right now, as well as still road games at the Chargers and at the Raiders.

So, you know, again, it's the lack of margin for error created by their one in five start. Every time Denver wins, I turn back around, look back the schedule and just say, man, if they just won one of those games, they'd be in the world different right now. But, you know, there's no time, no reason to expend energy lamenting that if you're the Broncos at this point because, again, it's in front of them. And like you said, those are winnable games. Like those are winnable games. And, you know, a road game in Detroit isn't what it used to be.

That's a much tougher game. But the encouraging thing if you care about the Denver Broncos is you're starting to see Russ play like he did in Seattle. I felt like that watching that sort of that high point ball to Sutton late last night in the fourth quarter. I was like, that's the Seattle Russ. And that's what you want to see. That's the optimistic view if you're a Broncos fan moving forward.

But much different. conversation than we had in September. We'll catch up in a couple weeks, Nick, and see where they're at. But they're going to be fun down the stretch. And I think it's interesting. And I think both of those two, Russell Wilson and Sean Bate, deserve a lot of credit for this turnaround. Yeah, no doubt. Looking forward to catching up again, Zach. Thanks a lot. All right. Let's welcome in Doug Haller from Arizona, who covers the Cardinals, among other things for us out in Arizona. Doug, we wanted to wait to have you on this week because we wanted Kyler Murray to come back. And that's really the only essential question being asked right now about the Cardinals.

They're two and nine after another loss yesterday to the Texans. I want to start here because I had a really long sit down with Jonathan Gannon back in August. And Jonathan Gannon had some things to say. Among those things, we won't get into the Philadelphia stuff. He said, I'm completely convicted. As long as he's here, as long as I'm here, he can be here. He was talking about his quarterback. I felt like I believed him that day.

We hear a lot of stuff from coaches that we don't believe. I felt like I believed it. You're around the team a lot more. 10, 11 weeks into the season, does it still feel like this team is thinking long term with Kyler Murray now that he's back on the field? It does, and I'll be honest, Zach, I wasn't convinced to that for most of the season.

The strongest comments Jonathan Gannon has made about Tyler Murray came to you in that story that you wrote. most of what he has said has been, you know, during his recovery. Kyler is working hard. He's the first one in the facility, the last one to leave. Stuff that you would expect to hear about most quarterbacks. But maybe you hadn't always heard about Kyler Murray. But I'll tell you what, after, in yesterday's game, now Jonathan Gannon on the sideline is Tom Landry.

Arms crossed, no emotion at all. Very hard to read. First quarter, Kyler Murray hits Rodnail Moore over the top for a touchdown. I saw this. It jumped out. It's me, too. Jonathan Gannon on the sideline, pumped his fist. Let's go to Kyler as Kyler's coming off the field.

That's the most emotion that I've seen Jonathan Gannon's show on the sideline. And to me, that that shows that they're behind Kyler Murray. Now, whether or not, you know, we're still kind of early into his return. Whether or not it stays that way, I don't know. But I do think that they want Kyler Murray to be their quarterback. and I think it's probably best for the organization that he stays as their quarterback. I think they do. I really do think they want him to be the guy.

And I thought he's played pretty well considering he's coming back from the injury that he had. Let me get your thoughts on this. So it feels like it's almost like the perfect season if you're the Arizona Cardinals. Tell me if I'm wrong, but they've been more competitive than a lot of people think. They beat the Cowboys convincingly early in the season. but at the same time, they still find a way to lose these games. So they're competitive and they're losing. They're two and nine.

And as of today, the Bears have the first pick. That's the Panthers first pick, obviously, because of the trade. The Cardinals are sitting at number two. Is it fair to say this is like a successful rebuild right now in terms of like it looks like they're, they've got some players. And they're not the laughing stock that I think a lot of people thought they would be in 2023. No, if you remember preseason, there was a lot of talk about.

this being the worst roster in the NFL. Correct. That the Cardinals may not win a game. You know, I think Monty Austin Ford, their new GM really kind of set the tone on draft day last year, or in April, I guess. By trading number three pick to Houston, giving them an extra first round pick, I think fans realize, okay, this year may be difficult, but there's a strategy. And they really set themselves up well. Not only do they have two first round picks, They have six picks in the top 100. This thing can change quickly. There's no doubt.

And the competitiveness that they have shown, you're absolutely right there. I think people were not expecting much. Beating the Cowboys early in the year brought them the coaching staff some credibility. The accountability stuff, Zach, has been interesting. I mean, kind of the talk of. How so? Well, kind of the talk of training camp was guys talking about, hey, if we're late to, the meanings, we get fined, which to me seems like, yeah, of course you get fine.

That should happen everywhere. But it was clear that it did not happen under Cliff Kingsbury. So I think there was accountability issues that were corrected early on. And they play hard. You know, the coaching staff, I had some doubts about the coaching staff. You had a first time head coach. You had a first time offensive play caller. You had the youngest defensive coordinator in the NFL.

You had a lot of guys who have never done it. in their positions. And Gannon, I think they're more competitive. He's setting the culture. I know that's overused in sports, but it was needed here. I mean, this has been an organization that's had a lot of dysfunction over the years. I think Drew Petzing, the offensive coordinator, has had some really promising moments. And then Nick Rawlis, the defense has been probably the strength of the team.

So I think there they've checked some boxes. Talent, they're still, you know, they have a way. They need some playmakers. for sure. And I think that's why if Kyler Murray is that guy that will make them, put them in a position going forward in the draft to kind of surround him with guys that they need. You know what they could do. If they decide to move forward with Kyler, they could trade from two to three, if they stay at two, still get Marvin Harrison Jr., who's probably the best player in the draft if the quarterbacks go one and two. I'm just sitting way ahead of myself,

but that's kind of what we do. Let's go back to Gannon. And I got the same vibe talking to a lot of players in August that he has changed things around there. And you hear this a lot when a first year coach takes over. But Gannon has a way of doing things and he's polarizing to some. They don't love them in Philadelphia because of the Super Bowl meltdown because of the things he said, because of the tampering issue, all that has been rehashed. But I wonder he does coach, man. Like I know a lot of former Colts players that Gannon changed their career and he made them better players and he got them paid. I wonder what the players think of Gannon 10 to 11 weeks in because, again, it's hard when the returns aren't there in terms of victories, but they don't have a lot of talent and they

are competitive. For those there every day, how has Gannon's regime started in terms of the players' perspectives? I think they're behind them. I think you can tell when a locker room has questions about the head coach. Maybe they don't come out and say it, but you can definitely read between the lines, you can see it. I don't sense that. And watching them on Sundays, you know, they're playing hard. I mean, they know that they're playing for the future. A lot of those guys are probably not a part of the future, but they're still playing hard.

And it's not so much, you know, I think it's pretty much the whole coaching staff. You know, like I mentioned the coordinators, Robert Rodriguez, the outside linebackers coach, has really got a lot out of that group. So I do, I do see the body. and that's needed. I know fans don't want to hear about that, but to go where the Cardinals have been to build, you can't skip steps.

You know, you need that foundation. And I think, you know, everything seems to be, now if they go and they lose out, you know, things change. You still have to perform. You still have to be competitive. You know, and they have let like yesterday's game. They should have won that game. They were in position to win.

You know, Kyler wasn't. didn't look as good as he did the previous week against Atlanta. So I think this next week or coming up against the Rams is a big game. How do they respond? So far, they responded pretty well. Will these next six or seven games determine his future there? Or is that too much of a statement? I think you're right on.

I think even though it works out better for the Cardinals, if Kyler Murray is their guy, you know, the contract, can he be traded with that? what would they have to do to move him? It would be best for him to be the guy. But he also has to prove it. And there's still a lot of questions around Kyler Murray. At times, he's looked like that guy, you know, people forget that a couple years ago for the first half of the season, when the Cardinals jumped off, I think there were 7 and 0. I mean, he was in the MVP conversation for whatever that's worth at that point in time.

But people were talking about him as an MVP. Last year was a disaster. I mean, he didn't look good. He didn't look comfortable. and he was really hurt by the fact that DeAndre Hopkins missed the first six games for the PED suspension. Taking him off the field really hurt Kyler. And then you know, you had the situation with the offensive line coach in Mexico. It was just, there was, you know, Cliff Kingsbury had heat on him the entire season.

It was just not a great year. I remember writing toward the end of the year like, okay, you know, Kyler Murray has a month to show that he's that guy, the guy that the Cardinals can count on to elevate the organization, and then he blew out his knee. So, you know, still a lot of questions, no doubt. He is talented. Do I see him as a top 10 quarterback? I'm not sure I do. But I do see him as a quarterback who can win games in this league.

So, yeah, without question, the rest of the season is huge for him and the organization. You mentioned the dysfunction, and our colleague, Kaelin Kowler, really detailed that in a very damning way about a month ago. and it went to the top owner Michael Buildwell. And you've covered this team for a long time. You've been through a lot of different coaches, and I've imagined a lot of different quarterbacks. And objectively, it has not been a well-run franchise. They've had moments.

They've had a run to the NFC championship game, but they have just had so much instability. I wonder if any of that has changed with a new head coach in Gannon and a new GM in Austin Ford. And I understand the results aren't there on the field, but it's a bit of a unique situation. They don't have this huge fan base. there's a lot of transplants that live in Arizona.

I imagine the fans are behind them when they're doing well, but they're two and nine, and they've been two and nine kind of a lot. I wonder if anything's changed out in the desert or it still feels like the same old Cardinals because it's going to be a really monumental offseason. What they decided to do with this really high pick, you said they have two in the first round.

They have six in the top 100. Where's the fan base with everything so much in flux right now? And a management that's probably hard to trust. Yeah, one foot in, one foot out for sure. You know, I covered the Cardinals back when they went to the Super Bowl, lost to Pittsburgh, and then I kind of broke away a couple years after that, and I was mostly covering colleges here in Arizona. I started back into the Cardinals a couple years ago.

And this goes to the Players Association survey that came out in the offseason. You remember that Cardinals said. Very eye-opening. Yeah, very revealing, not surprising at all. But, Zach, I walked into the locker room for the first time in a few years. And nothing had changed. Their locker room, and I'm talking about the practice facility locker room, it still looks like something in the 1980s.

No. Yeah. So many of them across the league are just fantastic. Yeah. Not in Arizona. They have made upgrades, the dining area for sure. But, you know, the grades of the failing grades that the Cardinals received on that, or not a surprise, the wait room stuff.

You know, this is an organization that needs, you know, major upgrades. Now, since that report card came out, there's been various upgrades, plans to do to certain things. And they've done like an indoor facility, like the bubble practice facility that helps in the training cab the summer out here because it's so hot. But they're way behind there. So that's the starting point. You know, that's how you get players, obviously. But, you know, the fan base is always going to wait and see what they do before. they jump in.

And the support has really been not bad considering. But I do think, as I mentioned, just turning the page from Steve Kime, which made, who made some very questionable draft decisions, among other things, moving on from Cliff Kingsbury, which never seemed like, you know, it was always a questionable hire to begin with, just given his coaching history in college.

I think everyone was ready for a fresh start. And I think everyone to this point, Sees the vision. Now, how long do they stay with that? I don't, you know how fans are. I don't know. I think they're willing to give them this year. And I think they need to show some real progress next year. Last thing, and I'll let you go on this, there's so much that a quarterback is responsible for. And it feels like in talking to players when I was there and you've obviously talked to them for years, that Kyler had some things he needed to get better at, interpersonal relationships, leadership, all that intangible stuff that we hear a lot in sports writing and sports media, right? But it did feel like he wasn't quite there yet. And I think one of his teammates kind of called him out last spring and said he needs to be a little bit more mature as the franchise quarterback. Is he going to get there? Do you see signs of that progressing?

Because it seems like they want him to be the guy. I mean, the Arizona Cardinals Twitter account is, you know, him. You know, they're just crowning the guy after he makes these great plays. But it's those little things behind the scenes that matter so much to teammates. and I feel like they're not going to really turn until he becomes that guy. Are you seeing signs that he's getting closer or is it just kind of still a question mark with him? Yeah, you're talking about being the face of the organization, right? Yeah, there's a lot to that.

Right. Absolutely. There is a lot to that. And Kyler has not been that guy for most of his stay in Arizona. And it's just not his personality. You know, he's been better over the last year or so. I mean, the organization hasn't helped him. I mean, the study clause in his contract.

That matters. Which was embarrassing for him and the organization. They eventually removed it. But there was definitely something behind. I mean, when players are talking on the record about he needs to be more of a leader, he needs to grow up. You just don't hear that that often in this league. Correct.

Yeah, not at all. I think he has shown more accountability just in the two games that he's been back. He has not or, you know, if a play breaks down, you know, he takes responsibility for it. We don't get to see him a whole lot as the media. I know he's been injured, but I think he talked in preseason and training camp. And then he didn't talk again publicly until he was activated and he was coming back. That's a long time not to not hear for the public not to hear from the face of the franchise. And you mentioned the social media stuff.

They've kind of compensated for it there. But I think he has some room to grow with the public in that regard. but for the most part it seems like in the locker room he's much better show more maturity, more leadership. But yeah, the perception of him, I think there's some accuracy definitely behind it. He has made improvement. We'll see where it goes. Thanks, Doug.

I don't think this is resolved. I think there's a lot to be determined over the last half of the season and then in the months that follow because there's going to be a lot of moving at the top of the draft. And I just feel like this is an unanswered question, which makes it so fascinating. but thanks for hopping on and thanks for the insight. Appreciate you having me, Zach. All right, that's a wrap on Keeping the Beats. Week 11, I want to thank Nick Cosmiter in Denver,

Adam Johns, in Chicago, and Doug Haller out in Arizona for sparing some time on a busy Monday to chat about their respective teams. Tons of great shows on the Athletic Football Show podcast feed coming later this week. I hope everybody has a fantastic Thanksgiving. Enjoy the football. We will catch up with you guys next week. This was the Athletic Football Show.