The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Keefer and the Beats: The Browns get a big win, The 49ers end their slump, and the Packers amass more questions

Episode Date: November 14, 2023

In this Week 10 edition of Keefer and the Beats, Zak discusses the uniqueness of what Week 10 presented with The Athletic NFL beat writers Zac Jackson (Browns), Matt Scheidman (Packers) and Matt Barrows (49ers). The discussion starts off with the Browns season turning moment of their wild finish against the Ravens. Then we move on to the Packers and discuss all the questions surrounding them. And then lastly, the 49ers, could this be an end to their slump? Follow Zak on Twitter: @zkeeferFollow Zac on Twitter: @AkronJacksonFollow Matt S on Twitter: @mattschneidmanFollow Matt B on Twitter: @mattbarrowsSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeThis episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Find your bright spot this season, with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp dot com slash MAYS today to get 10% off your first month.Right now, you can try LinkedIn Sales Navigator and get a sixty-day free trial at LinkedIn dot com slash MAYS23. That is LinkedIn dot com slash MAYS23 for a 60-day free trial. Let LinkedIn Sales Navigator help you sell like a superstar today! Just go to LinkedIn dot com slash MAYS23 and get started. New to Etsy? Use the code HOLIDAY10 for ten percent off your first purchase. That’s code HOLIDAY10. Maximum discount value of fifty dollars. Expires December 31st, 2023. See terms at Etsy dot com slash terms. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome back to the Athletic Football Show. This is Zach Kiefer returning to you guys. After a week off last week, I was flying back from Frankfurt, Germany. After helping out with Chiefs Dolphins coverage, thank you to Robert for stepping in. But I'm back for week 10, and I'm glad I am because so, so many games yesterday came down to the wire. This is a crazy stat, but never in the NFL's 103-year history have five games been decided by a game-winning field goal. on the same Sunday.

That's what we saw yesterday. Now, not all these games are great. The football hasn't been spectacular in a lot of places, but at least we're getting close games at the buzzer. The Cardinals, the Browns, the Lions, the Texans, and the Seahawks all won with field goals at the buzzer. And 10 of the 13 games so far have been decided by one score or less this week. We've got Broncos Bills later tonight on Monday Night Football.

I saw one of those games in Cincinnati where C.J. Stroud looked Demico Ryan's, his coach in the eye, late interception that kept the Bengals in it. And he said, coach, I got you. About 20 minutes later, Stroud and the Texans had their second game winning drive in as many weeks. And they are suddenly above 500 for the first time since week one of the 2021 season. I spent some time in Houston last week with Stroud and we had a really good conversation.

He opened up on what it's like talking to his father in prison, the infamous S2 test that everybody heard about, and how the rocky moments of his football journey have shaped him into the player he is right now. And that player is the runaway pick for offensive rookie of the year. He's getting a little bit of buzz in the MVP race. Thank you for everyone for checking out that story and for the kind words and for those who haven't. I would encourage you to give that one to read. In Minnesota, the Josh Dobbs story just keeps getting better. He found the home team locker room with a little bit of help when he showed up to U.S. Bank Stadium on Sunday. Then he led the Vikings to their fifth straight win. What a story that is and what a job.

Kevin O'Connell is doing as a head coach with Justin Jefferson coming back in the next couple of weeks, if not this week, the team that was once 0 and 3 is suddenly very much back in the NFC playoff picture. The Patriots are a freaking dumpster fire. They benched Mac Jones yesterday and what was arguably an unwatchable game against the Colts and Jermany. And that feels like that Mac Jones experiment is over. You can't just keep benching this guy. And they're two and eight right now, and remember what Robert Kraft said before the season, he really wanted a playoff team this year. That ain't

happening, and this is the worst record they've ever had since Belichick's first year. They're headed for their first top five pick since 1994, and who's going to be making that pick is the question, Bill Belichick's future, very much a hot topic right now in the Upper Northeast.

But for this week's episode, we're going to dig into the ridiculous Cleveland Brown's win yesterday in Baltimore. We'll ask our beat writer, Zach Jackson, and just how badly Deshaun Watson needed that second half. From there, we'll visit with Matt Schneiderman and Green Bay about what it's like to cover a bad Packers team, which he hasn't had to do in a long time there. We'll talk Jordan Love and Christian Watson and Matt LaFloor.

In the dangerous game they're playing with the quarterback who they don't really know is the guy moving forward, how long are they willing to let the Jordan Love experiment run? Because that's going to be fascinating, and they're going to be picking really high this year, higher than they have in a long time. And finally, the 49ers looked like the 49ers again in a big way, stomping the Jaguars 34 to 3 yesterday in Jacksonville. We'll visit with Matt Barrow's, our 49ers beat rider, to dissect the team ending their three-game losing streak, Brock Purdy looking like Brock Purdy again, Kyle Shanahan, Christian McCaffrey,

Steve Wilkes coming down from the booth to the field, and they have a tasty matchup in a couple weeks against the Philadelphia Eagles. Matt kind of let us know that the 49ers haven't forgotten that. NFC championship game lost from a year ago. In their minds, they didn't get a fair shake because of the quarterback injury. That's going to be a fun one. So we'll chat about the 49ers with Matt. Really, really good episode.

Tons of insight from our repeat reporters on week 10. Let's jump in. All right, from Cleveland, Ohio, our Browns beat writer, Zach Jackson. Zach, we were just kind of talking off the air about how weird the Cleveland Browns are this year. I want to start here with yesterday's absolutely wild game against the Ravens. I literally thought it was over like 12 times. Did you? And what was it like to watch it unfold in real time?

Because this felt like a possible season turning moment for a team that really had no business winning this game. Well, they led for zero minutes and zero seconds. So yes. But does it feel like a season turning moment in some ways even larger than that for as much as it can be in week 10? Right? Yes. Because it was gutty. It was the fourth time in five games.

that it came down to the last 20 seconds and could have gone either way, but it was the first time that Deshawn Watson led them to a win. And so that's why it feels different. Yes, yes, but this defense is extremely fun to watch. And I would just say without getting ahead or putting too much on yesterday, which was incredible, nobody wants to play this defense in a one-and-out setting, right? So it's an imperfect team. And one of the impressive things about yesterday is it was completely imperfect.

The special teams who have been good were really bad. bad. The defense kept getting penalized and kept getting gashed with big plays. And the offense, including Watson, in the first half, was bad. And then all of a sudden it turned. And, you know, they scored every time they touched the ball in the second half. That's three possessions and one defensive score. And they just turned on Lamar Jackson starting in the second quarter and, you know, won another game. So it wasn't one of their vintage outrageous stat performances. Obviously, they gave up 31 points. But they miss a PAT on the... what should have been the tying touchdown.

And then the guy calmly makes the field goal. And it's just like, so the 12-man penalties, the holding a strip sack on the last drive. It's not Watson's fault. He never sees it coming. Guard Wyatt Teller falls on it. Next play, 17-yard completion, then they go down and score. So it was like just incredibly crazy. What was the quote from the kicker you got?

This was just great. Yeah, it was. I feel a little bit like an arsonist who gets to watch his own fire and then get patted on the back for it. And like I just was giggling like I am now, right? The Browns are so weird. They're six and three. They've got this unbelievable defense with possibly the defensive player of the year. They've come back from double-digit deficits to beat San Francisco and Baltimore,

easily two of the best five teams in the league. And yet the quarterback conversation is so complex and so layered and so weird. Like our colleague Jason Lloyd wrote yesterday, like it was becoming a $230 million punchline. He was playing that bad. And he was that bad in the first half. No incompletions in the second half. They win.

Let me ask you this. As someone who lives in the city and has the pulse of this team, how much did Deshawn Watson need that second half against that team? Like more than I could explain. There you go. There's been angst for a lot of reasons, right? And most recently, you know, with his injury and him not being there and him not playing well, mostly when he's been there.

People just had this, their acceptance of it, wherever they stood on the Sean Watson's issues and the Browns, what they gave up to get him, and giving away last year, basically, to ride this, was that he was going to be good. And that's fine. The Browns have not been good for so long. Last week was the 30th anniversary of them cutting Bernie Cozarz,

that's the last time they had a franchise quarterback. Like Bernie still the most beloved quarterback in Cleveland, which is not a knock on Bernie. it's the entirely default of this organization, right? So yes, so he needed that. And it's been up and down. We've seen the talent, but just glimpses. And even in yesterday's game kind of perfectly encapsulates it

because we saw so, so bad, and then really good. And so when you're six of 20 at half and a pick six, and you guys have left at least 10 points on the field, I guess there's one way to rectify it, and that's to not miss. And it was a lot of simple stuff, but he was playing hurt and ran for a two-point conversion. He needed one deep throw. He made it right on the money.

They've simplified the offense for many reasons. One of them being the defense is so good. One of them, they haven't known who their quarterback is on a day-to-day week-to-week basis. And so it's Ben Cooper and the Joku, and you look big picture, and it's got to be more than that. But he's hitting the Joku on simple plays,

and he's hitting Amari Cooper all the time. Everybody in the stadium knows that it's going to Amari Cooper and Amari's getting open. and the two biggest ones yesterday were right on the money. So you just give him the credit. And then he leaves the stadium in a boot. We don't know what the MRI said. We don't know where he was with the shoulder before this ankle injury.

They had to take him out of the game to throw a Hill Mary, and the backup couldn't even throw at the full 40 yards. They might have to play the Steelers without their starting tackles again. So we don't know. But you do know that his last two performances have been wild, but they've trended upwards. You can fairly surmise that with more revals, with more comfort, he's going to be better.

And you can say in a no-excuse league that there's still valid excuses. You hate to say it. You don't want to give him to them. And frankly, they're in a position now where it's no excuse you just produce or not, right? You go get the 11 and 12 wins and you be a contender. But like, is he going to be a practice Wednesday, Zach? I don't know. And is he going to play great or play awful or both against the Steelers next week?

I'd say probably both. That's the fun part. And like I mentioned earlier, the exhausting part of your job is like, what the hell kind of team is going to show up every week? I guess the question is, now he was playing bad, but like you said, he had the shoulder and he had the ankle on Sunday, and he found a way to win, and you don't apologize for wins. We've all heard that a million times. My question is, can they live like this?

Like, dude, this team is 28th and EPA per play on offense. 28th. They're 26th in passing. They're 27th on third downs. They're second and rushing. But they've beat the Ravens. They beat the 49ers. And they're six and three.

And there's no apologies needed because they keep winning somehow these weird, ugly, gritty games. Yeah, they can, and defense is that good. Yeah. And like I said, you know, 58 yards the Cardinals got with Clayton 2. 94 yards the Titans got with Tana Hill. And they totally drilled the Bengals. Zach in week one, Burrow was on one leg. But even that was a close game.

And Burrow has a guy open deep. And I think it's Denzel War comes out of nowhere and makes the play. Like, they've just been there. And yesterday was not Miles' best game in terms of, things that show up on the stat sheet or being there on every play. But there's two key moments where he was needed. He's there both times. There's times when you go back and look and he's getting double-teamed or he's

getting there. Like the rush and not just Miles, but starting with Miles, got to Lamar and totally affected. His throws, his decisions not to throw. And even like last gasp, third and 14, old Lamar gets there. I don't know if New Lamar does, but Zadarius Smith and some other guys cut him down and just they cut it off, right? They were just there in waves. So, yes, they can win. Is it going to be any kind of straight line based on the quarterback's health, based on the quarterback's performance,

or based upon just the overall offensive outlook with a one and a half man passing game and a running back by a committee of what's left of Kareem Hunt and Jerome Ford, who nobody really knew until six weeks ago? They can, I don't know. But one thing I want to get back to, there's only two things that can keep Miles from winning defensive player of the year. One is Michael Parsons who plays on national TV every week and people know. Correct. Right? And we'll just see how to vote.

And the other would be T.J. Watt going nuts and getting to like 25 sacks. And he might, this week, he might get 15 this week, right, if Watson's hobbling around and if he's playing against John Christian. But what Miles has done, week in and week out, has been the best. And his moments in the past have been phenomenal, Cantonworthy, like this dude's an alien. but week in, week out this year, we've seen it. And I told people to bet it at the beginning of the year, and now it's like he's the co-favorit, but he should be the favorite. He has been absolutely phenomenal,

and he has the biggest reason that this defense is really that good, that it can carry the Browns to January and then how far then? I don't know, but like I said, I stand by it. Nobody wants to play this defense in a one-and-out situation. It's wild because they're like a team out of 95. Good running game. Like you said, without their top back. unbelievable defense.

The thing that's different is they're paying their quarterback more than anyone's ever paid a quarterback and it's all guaranteed. With Watson, if he's out, it's a death knell, right? Like they don't have a prayer, right? Right, right. PJ Walker's just a guy, right? And like, credit to Kevin Stafanke, let me make sure I say this. He's adapted.

And even when Watson was in there, they had to adapt. They lose Nick Chub in week two. Credit to Kevin Stifansky and Andrew Barry in the pro personnel department. Like, they've had some things not go their way even outside. of Chub, and really the only place they missed is the receiving core. Like, the defensive line needed an upgrade. The special teams needed an upgrade. They hired the right coordinators.

They brought in the right free agents. And it's not just Alvin Tomlinson who makes a lot of money and has been worth every penny. It's Shelby Harris, 32 years old, you know, available in August. Rodney McLeod, 32 years old. Oh, I love Rodney Cloud. Great dude. Yeah. Yeah, they needed a kicker.

They went and got Dustin Hopkins. He's been a hero. Arsonist. Yes, he's burning shit down for sure. I mean, as long as you make the last one, you know, it's funny how the kickers live. And he made four of them, I think, when they beat the Niners, which at the time was the best team in a league, the hottest team in a league, just like yesterday with the Ravens. He missed one early in that game, too. So he's kind of summed it up. Like, it hasn't been perfect, and it's

been by no means by design. But like, I just had a feeling yesterday as they hung around that they were going to have a chance. And I just saw. Really? You wouldn't have had that feeling in the past. Would you have? No, no, but because they didn't have this defense. They didn't. Yeah. And, you know, even before the last time. Sure. Um, They had two 75-yard back-to-back scoring drafts. And it was sandwiched by an interception return, which helps you and changes the momentum. But that was the offense saying we're here, and we just haven't seen it. We've seen glimpses.

We've seen the best Amari Cooper season at age 29, right, after two teams have moved on from him. But we just haven't seen it consistently. And people have said this is the best, the most talented Browns team of the new era. And it probably is, Zach. But that was built upon the quarterback being what they've never had, and Nick Chubbs still being the best running back in the league. Now, they haven't had Nick Chubbs since mid-September, and the quarterback, with few exceptions, has been everything they've ever had, frankly. But the glimpses have been good. We know the talents there.

And yesterday, he needed that, and the organization needed that, for all the reasons, from resilience to performance to everything. And now the whole vibe has changed. So we'll see if he can go Sunday. We'll see who's blocking for him Sunday. The Steelers have been a thorn on their side for a long, long time and scored two defensive touchdowns to beat them in September. But if the Browns get this one, then they start planning for January. And like I said, I trust in this defense to make them a minimum, a really tough hour. The AFC North just continues to beat the crap out of each other.

I thought the Ravens entering yesterday were the best team in the league in the conference, or in the division. They still might be. Baltimore, 7 and 3, Cleveland and Pittsburgh, 6 and 3. They meet on Sunday. Bengals, I watched them lose the Texans yesterday. They're five and four. You like their chances to win the division? If the quarterback stays up? Like their chances, don't love them. Schedule wise, yes. Defense-wise. You can make a case against and for all four teams. Sure, sure. You know, the Browns play at Denver a game they can win. At the Rams, a game they can certainly win.

The Bears at home, a game you have to win. They play at the Texans, which back in May you circle is, wow, what a gift. from the schedule makers, right? And now that's not so much. The kid's good. They play the Jets on Thursday night three days after Christmas. It'll be four degrees, and the score will be six to four, but they'll probably win that game. So, you know, they can get there if they're healthy. And Stefansky and the line and Jerome Ford and Kareem Hunt have done it.

So, you know, I think there's a chance, and I like their chances. But really, the Steelers have this magic and a phenomenal defense. If the Bengals are healthy, they're still really good. And we'll see how the Ravens respond, both health-wise and mentally, because they were kicking the crap out of the Browns yesterday, and they let it go. So was it just a bump? And they've done that a couple times this season. Sure.

They have let teams win games that they had no business losing, the Ravens. On paper right now, Zach, their schedule is a ton tougher than the Browns the rest of the way. But we know how that goes. It does matter, but in two weeks it could look a lot different. Exactly. It gets hurt. One ball gets dropped. One kick doesn't get made, right?

something like that. We can talk about the Browns for like an hour. They're just so messy in a lot of different ways. But I'm glad that you're here to explain it to us. And we're going to be checking in in a couple months because I feel like they're going to be in the picture at the very least as we turn the calendar from December to January. So Zach, thanks for joining us, man. And we'll catch up down the line. No problem. Talk to you soon. All right, back from Pittsburgh, our Green Bay Packers reporter, Matt Schneider. Matt, how you doing? I'm fantastic. How are you? Actually, hold on. Let me rephrase that. Anytime I have to wake up at 4.45 a.m. for a flight on a Monday morning, it's not great, but I get to watch and

talk about football for a living, so all things considered, I'm all right. I did that last week, a couple of times, and it was just like, gosh, no one should be awake at this hour. And yet we do it when you're covering a team, like every other Monday for like eight, you know, take weeks. It's exhausting. It really is. It was my first time in Pittsburgh, though, and it was an entertaining game, so I guess it was worth it. All right. So the last time we talked, Matt, That was after week one. And I remember your exact words. You said, I'm not going to crown Jordan Love as the next guy.

It was the Bears. They beat the brakes on the Bears. It didn't tell us a whole lot. My goodness, a lot has changed in Green Bay. How would you evaluate this team right now compared to those beautiful 60 minutes of football you watch at Siljo Fier back in September? Yeah, the Packers stink, to put it lightly.

we're already in mock draft territory. There are cries for Marvin Harrison Jr. right now here in Green Bay on the Twitter streets. Listen, I severely underestimated how much of a struggle this season would be for the offense. I don't think that was necessarily because of what I saw in week one. I always knew to take that game, I should say, with a grain of salt because it was the Bears. but I thought maybe they could get things figured out sooner than they have. Granted, losing a five-time all-pro left tackle for this season isn't great. Aaron Jones literally just became 100% full-go yesterday for the first time since week one.

He's your best offensive playmaker. A.J. Dillon hasn't been great all season. He's been better of late. I think the biggest disappointment has been with Christian Wollinger. You know, he had a four-game stretch last season where from weeks 10 to 13, he caught 15 passes for 313 yards and seven touchdowns. And this season, he has 14 catches for 236 yards and one touchdown. He, you know, doesn't win 50-50 balls consistently. He hasn't created separation that a guy of his speed should.

He has too many drops. He was supposed to be the number one guy for this offense. You know, not every offense has, you know, a true number one guy that you can go to in a got-a-havit situation. These guys had Devante Adams for so long. And last year, Watson showed flashes that he could be that guy. He has been anything but he's been, you know, injury prone for the first two years of his career. And it's been kind of a by-committee thing with the wide receivers. Jordan Love, obviously, is the biggest name here.

He was the biggest question mark. he hasn't been great, but everyone in the building has preached that they need to get everything around him figured out first before they get an accurate read on what he can be. Yesterday, I thought, was one of his better games of the season. They moved the ball better than they have in a lot of games this year. So I thought yesterday for Love was a step in the right direction. But overall, I mean, that was their seventh straight game where they scored 20 or fewer points. That's just not good.

So you mentioned that you overestimated the offense. And obviously they make the move from Rogers to love. and that gets all the attention. Your story was interesting this morning because you wrote about Watson, not taking that step, like you said. And I remember thinking last year late in the season, like, oh, he's a dude. Now that he's finally healthy, like he's a dude. Did management, and Matt LaFleur included, did they think pair these two up, Jordan Love and Christian Watson, let them grow up in this league together and you're going to reap the benefits? It just seems like right now they're so disjointed. And the other part is the line, like you said, like that is not straight right now. Right. You know, they're starting left

tackle right now is their seventh round pick from last year, Rashid Walker, who was Penn State's left tackle. Their left guard, Elton Jenkins, two-time pro-bowler, so that's fine. Their center, Josh Myers, fine. Their right tackle, Zach Tom, fine. Their right guard, John Runyon Jr. has been all right. But anytime you don't have arguably the best left tackle in the game went healthy, it'll make things worse. But with Watson, there was a play last year against the Eagles on Sunday night football in week 12. And Aaron Rogers got injured in the third quarter of that game, and he thought he punctured a lung, so he came out and missed the entire fourth quarter. And, you know, it was kind of garbage time. The Eagles were playing soft beat to protect a

two-score lead. And Watson, or Love hit Watson on like a shallow crosser. It only traveled like 10 yards in the air, but Watson took it the distance, you know, beat like three guys around the edge for, I think it was like a 60-plus yard touchdown. And everyone was like, all right, that's the future. Yeah. And what they struggled to do this year is get Watts in the ball in space and let him run. He is the fastest player on this team, but far too many of the targets to Watson this year, this year have been 50-50 balls.

And he's 6'4, but he's not the bulkiest guy. He has only gone up and really gotten one once this year, and that was last week against the Rams. And on that play, he suffered a back injury, a chest injury, and had to be evaluated for a concussion, all on the same play. So his body isn't built to go up and win 50-50 balls. His body is built to beat people over the top, get hit in stride, or get the ball in space and run. And on the times he has beat people over the top, Love has underthrown him.

There was a play last week against the Rams where Watson had his guy, I think it was a Keller-Witherspoon, clearly beat down the left sideline. And Love just badly underthrew him. That's not the only time that's happened this year. No, it's not. Against the Raiders in the fourth quarter, when the Packers are trailing by four, Love underthrows him after he has his guy beat down the left sideline in the end zone. So it's both of them. It's not just one guy, but the inability to connect on big plays has left this offense without a true number one and left the offense without their primary source of explosive plays, which has for the majority of this season been what has doomed them

from really putting points on the board. Let me ask you this, and this is probably a bad question, but I don't care. What's it like to cover a really crappy Packers team? Because you've obviously covered teams that didn't make the playoffs with Rogers before, but they always had a chance. And they had made runs where they won like six or seven in a row to get in. So like there was always that hope. There's no hope right now.

And like you said, they're already talking about Marvin Harrison Jr. Like what's it like to cover a Packers team in mid-November that's just like doomed to finish with one of the worst records in football? That's a great question. It's not a bad question at all. I've been thinking about that a lot recently. And I was actually out to dinner with my parents and my brother in Pittsburgh last night since, you know, my family's from Connecticut. So they drove over. And I was explaining to them the dilemma I currently find myself in. And nobody wants to hear this. What was me? But listen, you know you've been doing this long enough. I do. I want to hear it. The beat writer's struggle is what this podcast is about.

You want the team you cover to be really good or really bad because- Eighth and eight does nothing for you. Both of those things equal relevant. And I covered the Oakland Raiders for my first two years, you know, in this profession. And they had the number four pick. You know, they were four and twelve. They fired Jack Del Rio, hired John Gruden, like, fired their GM. I don't root for certain things to happen, you know, because I'm a fan of things or because I want to see people lose their jobs.

I just want to write the most interesting stories and what will get my stuff read the most because the more of my stuff is read, the more likely it is I keep my job. That's just the reality of the situation. But the Packers find themselves in an interesting middle ground. And by interesting, I mean not interesting at all to cover it. Yeah, they're boring. They don't really have any really interesting guys. Like Devante Adams and Aaron Rogers were that.

Jair Alexander, kind of, but he's been hurt. Aaron Jones to an extent. But they're 3 and 6, yes, but they're not going to get a top 3 pick. That's what would be really interesting. A top 5 pick would be. But even if they do, they might take a left tackle, a de-linman. You either want them to be horrific or really good.

And after they beat the Rams, I said, you know what? Best case scenario for reporters, if they go and beat the Steelers, get this thing going in the right direction, maybe turn it around. but instead they go right back to doing what I've written about seven times this season. And you will write about it three or four more. And the offense is bad, and they make it interesting in the second half. The defense can't stop the run. And after the game, I was like, that's why I wrote the story on Watson in Love.

It is normally I'll write kind of a big picture. Here's what happened in the game and what it means. You've already written that. And nothing's changing, right? I've written that story. So that's why I chose to focus it a little more. And the thing is, they play the chargers at home. the Lions on Thanksgiving in Detroit, and the Chiefs at home on Sunday night football, their next three games.

They're most likely going to be three and nine. Then you're sniffing a top three pick. Then we can start thinking, you know, depending on how Jordan Love plays, are they thinking quarterback? Are they thinking Marvin Harrison? But then they have the Giants, Panthers, and Bears in their last five games. So if they win those three, they're six and 11 with the ninth pick in the draft. Nobody gives a damn about that. When's the last time they picked in the top five?

AJ Hawk, 2006. Okay, because I looked up the Patriots the other day. The Patriots haven't picked in the top five since 2004. So, like, these are not teams we're used to talking about coming to the draft at the top. Not at all. And I mean, the past couple years, at least my first three years covering this team, when they went NFC title game, NFC title game, divisional round lost. I'm walking around the combine.

Like, I'm only here to talk to the GM and the head coach. Exactly. Now you're going to have to go to all those interviews. for all those O-Linmen and you're going to have to actually transcribe all that crap. Couldn't happen to a better guy. Back when you were just a lowly local beatwriter instead of some national hot shot, you were looking at quarterbacks and prospects, and I'm going to have to do that this year, which makes it more interesting.

Dude, I covered like eight quarterbacks in the last four years on the Colts beat. Like, I paid my dues with that. I'm looking at the Packers' draft history right now. They haven't had a top 10 pick in the first round since. 2009 when they took B.J. Raji at number nine, and they haven't had a pick in the top five since 2006 when they took A.J. Hawk at number five. So here's the question. When we talk about that pick and the quarterback class that's coming out, my understanding at the start of this season was this was a two-year experiment with Jordan Love.

I think they redid the deal where basically he's like, he's their guy for two years and we're going to give it time. From your understanding of management, and I don't really blame them for wanting to see what they had in Jordan Love and kind of pushing Aaron Rogers out the door. You've written a lot about that. Is that still your understanding of how they're going to approach this? I don't know what we've learned about Jordan Love so far other than he's okay, played better yesterday, but like, is there any way where they draft a quarterback or are they going to have to give this a little bit of time?

Because it's a different team and a different franchise in a different situation. They've had three quarterbacks in 30 years. Right. I think it would be highly unlikely that they draft a quarterback, and the only way they would is if, A, they get that pick in the top three. Or who knows, maybe Brian Gutakunz likes Michael Penix or J.J. McCarthy or whoever. I mean, they drafted a quarterback a couple years ago, and they really didn't need to. So who knows?

Right, exactly. Here's my take on it. I think as of now, the plan is to still give him at least two years, because the only way they would move on from him after this year with a quarterback class that's coming out is, like, I said, if they are in position to take someone they like, that seems unlikely right now. And if Love completely unravels, it is a disaster for the rest of the season. But as I mentioned before, there's been so much talk from Brian Gutakunz, when he spoke with us a couple weeks ago and Matt LaFleur, that they need to give Jordan Love more help.

And I don't think that's just them trying to defend their quarterback. They haven't gotten enough from their receivers. That's fair. Yeah, I think it is. They haven't gotten enough from their running game or their O-line either. And that's the worst place you can be in as a franchise is being unsure if the guy you have at quarterback is the guy because of what's around him. I remember when I covered the Raiders, the question every year was, you know, is Derek Carr the guy? You know, in 2016, he was, I think,

third in MVP voting before he broke his leg against the Colts. That was before I was there. Right. And for the next however many years, they were spending time trying to get the O-Line set, trying to get the receivers set, trying to get the running game set, because they said, all right, once we get everything around Carr, we can finally figure out if. he's the guy and he turned out not to be the guy. So that wastes however many years of franchise development. And that's why the Packers are in a dangerous spot

because if Jordan Love ends up not being the guy and they bypass a quarterback if they're in position to take one in this year's draft because they convince themselves that if we just get a couple of things short up around him, then we'll find out that he could be the guy. But what if that happens and then he turns out not to be the guy? Like, that's why it's so paramount over these final eight games,

and it has to be done much sooner rather than later, that they get everything around him sorted out, and that's easier said than done, because they need an accurate big picture evaluation on their quarterback as an individual before this offseason comes. Mark Murphy, the team president, who's the de facto owner, said before the season that he thought it would take about eight games to figure out what Jordan Love is.

Last week, Mark Murphy spoke at like a Packer's, speaker series event and said, we still don't know. And Brian Gutakuntz essentially said the same thing two weeks ago. So they need to get that figured out or else they risk putting themselves in a dangerous position this offseason. They are in a dangerous position like you just laid out. Because if you have a quarterback who's in that like 22 to 25 range, 20 to 25, whatever it is, you're going to not be in the playoffs and you're not going to be picking in the top four or five. And that's where you get the franchise changing guys. And there are some similarities between the two teams, the team I used to cover and the team you cover, they've never had to live this way. Live with the other half,

have lived. I just talked to Zach Jackson and Cleveland. He's like, we've had 50 quarterbacks in the last 10 years. The Colts went from Peyton Manning to Andrew Luck, and it was just not normal. And obviously, far to Rogers. And now they're starting to see, like, what's it like when you have an average quarterback? And how hard it is to get out of that, because they're not going to be in the top three or, like the Panthers are way worse. The Giants are way worse, the Cardinals, unless Kyler gets going, and obviously the Bears. So that's going to be interesting to see how they play that out, because like you said, it's not hard for me to see them wasting the next couple of years because they don't know if he's the guy or not. Right, and like you mentioned, the extension they gave him, instead of exercising his fifth year option, which would have guaranteed a little over $20 million for next season, without ever seeing him be the full-time starter, they didn't want to do that.

So instead, they guaranteed him about $13 million up front this year. And then that makes it a lot easier to, you know, cut bait after this season if they had to. If I had a top five pick, I probably would. With these kids coming out, I probably would. Yeah. And the thing is, that Jets pick will be interesting because they have the Jets' second round pick. They would have had the Jets first round pick if Aaron Rogers stayed healthy. But if the Jets lose, you know, enough games.

Well, they're going to stick with Zach Wilson. And so there's a good chance of that happening. Right. And so that pick could be early in the second round, that Jets pick that the Packers have. So they have some ammunition to maybe move up to take a quarterback in the first round. It would take more than just their first round pick and a second round pick, but they have some ammunition. But I just don't see any way the Packers come out of this season saying, Jordan Love is our main problem.

We need to take a quarterback. And that's really risky because he could. end up being a problem when all is said and done after next season. Both things can be true. You give him another year, you help him a little bit, he could play much better next year. That's happened. And talking to people around the league, not about this situation specifically. We all want to find out if he's the guy six to eight, ten games in. It doesn't always work like that. So I think both things could be true. The good news, Matt, is you're going to have a lot more time free in January this year

to enjoy Green Bay weather up there and not have to cover any playoff games in the cold. So that's good. It'll be a new world for you. I might do what Adam Johns has done in Chicago. Just get the company to pay for me to travel to college games and scout guys, the Packers might draft. Yeah, I mean, like, I need to be in L.A. right now to watch Caleb Williams. So get me on a plane from Green Bay to L.A.

That, honestly. Send me to the National Championship game to watch Marvin Harrison, Jr. Please. You don't need to watch him, man. He's the real deal. But don't tell the bosses that because that would be a heck of a trip. Thanks for hopping on, Matt. That was fun.

We'll talk down the line. Thanks, Zach. Appreciate it. Always a pleasure. All right, from the Bay Area, one of our San Francisco 49ers, beat writers, Matt Barrows. Matt, how are you doing? I'm doing well. So the last time we talked was about a month ago.

The 49ers were on top of the world. You made the bold proclamation that this was probably Kyle Shanahan's best team. I would have agreed with you a couple days later. They absolutely trounced the Dallas. Cowboys on national television. And then they had a three-game losing streak. And everyone was up in arms about Brock Purdy and the defensive line not performing. Let's start here.

Where was your level of consternation as someone who covers the team every day and watches every game very closely with the issues? Were they real or was it just sort of a mid-season slump? I mean, there was definitely some outside factors. I think fatigue was something that was very real during that three-game losing streak. The 49ers had played games in Cleveland and Minnesota, and they got back for a game against the Bengals. And I'd never heard Kyle Shanahan question his team's effort or readiness to play in a game. And he did.

He said that they look slow, tired against the Bengals. that was unusual for a 49ers team, and unusual for Shanahan to kind of underscore that. So I think that that was part of it. You know, they didn't have Debo Samuel and Trent Williams for the better part of those. That's a big deal, right. It's a huge deal. I mean, here's just a little image of what they mean to this team.

Before every game, they have this giant boombox that they come out of the locker room with, and one guy has it on, and the whole team lines up behind them, and they all kind of march out. It's like group swagger. The first two guys, invariably, are Trent Williams and Debo Samuel. They're the leaders of the Swag Patrol, let's call it. They didn't have the Swag Patrol for basically three games. They were back yesterday against Jacksonville, and you kind of saw that. You saw that from everybody.

Brock Purdy, not somebody you think of when you think of swag, but he does have an aggressive demeanor. And you saw that he made a, you know, what Channahan thought was the worst decision of his career when he throws against his body. It was not a great decision, objectively. That was a risky throw. It's what, you know, little league coaches, you know, say right off the, that never throw to the middle of the field, never throw across your body, especially when you're a right-handed quarterback and you're going left, very hard to get any sort of real torque on the ball.

He throws it, they score touchdown. My point is that there was an aggressiveness about the 49ers yesterday, and you saw that from top to bottom on the team. And I think that Williams and Samuel are a big part of sort of bringing that confidence, that swagger, that aggressiveness to the fold. I'm disappointed that we're not going to see Brock Purdy walk out of the locker room with a boom box on his shoulder. Like that would just be an unbelievable NFL image for everybody out here. We could sell a lot of T-shirts. Yeah? Part of the issue was they weren't sacking the quarterback, which is crazy.

And you wrote about this, like, you know, they have all these first-round picks and they go out and get Chase Young. And that's part of the reason why. But like, what was the issue with the defensive line? And then secondly, how much did you put into this whole? narrative about Steve Wilkes coming down from the booth, defensive coordinator, to the field. I think Kyle Shanahan made a comment yesterday, like, it's not that big of a deal. Why did they necessitate that change and how big of an issue was it? Or was it just more for optics? I think it was mostly to sort of shake things up. The issue, I mean, I didn't put much

into it to answer your question. The issue to me was that Steve Wilkes is basically parachuted into a defense. Yeah. And you guys, in San Francisco, you guys go through this every couple years because there's a coordinator that always gets hired. That's right. And usually there's somebody waiting in the wings to sort of succeed, you know, the outgoing defensive coordinator.

The 49ers didn't have that guy this year. So they had to bring somebody else in. And usually when you bring a new guy in, the new guy brings his defense in. The new guy brings, you know, a bunch of lieutenants. The new guy brings, you know, several players who have played for him, knows how to, knows what this guy's all about and can help sort of institute this defense. Steve Wilkes came in stag, came in solo. Not a, not a friend in the world. I mean, it's a rare.

I've never, I've been covering this team for 22 seasons. I've never seen that before. So it was awkward in its own right. And my thought is that having him in the booth kind of further isolates him. It kind of further detaches him from the rest of the group, and that Shanahan's idea was, okay, we'll get this guy on the sideline. He can sort of get ensconced in our defense a little bit better. And, you know, whether that's true or not, it worked on Sunday, for sure.

I think that Steve Wilkes play calls were the difference, obviously. And there was a marriage between coverage and pass rush that just hadn't been. been there in the previous three games. And it seemed in the previous three games that Wilkes was sometimes straining to sort of generate that and calling things that the 49ers aren't used to that they're not a blitzing team. They're not a team that runs a lot of stunts. They're not a team that runs zero blitzes. And he's called those in the last three games. And it was sort of like an unnatural thing. He seemed like a bit of a fish out of water. Moving him to the sideline kind of puts them in the fish bowl a little bit more directly. And I think that it started to

work on Sunday. That's interesting about just the physical presence of having that coach more in lockstep with the team. And some of the players told you guys in the locker room like, yeah, it was different. He was like right there after every play. And you mentioned a really important thing. You said like Chase Young's arrival, his first game, he didn't start, but like he was getting a lot of chip blocks and that frea bosa on the edge who arguably had his. best game. Let's shift gears to the quarterback because a lot of conversation about Brock Purdy the last couple of weeks. He wasn't good in a couple of those games. Finally sort of saw what it's like to lose in the NFL for a couple weeks. Didn't even play the final quarter, excuse me,

yesterday. They were up by so much. Lost in yesterday's game wasn't just the 49ers playing well. It was who they beat. I mean, the Jaguars are considered by some as an AFC contender. Maybe the best in their division, maybe not. But has pretty quieted the narrative that maybe he had run out of magic? And do they feel confident, you know, they got the Eagles in a couple weeks, that he's back to being what he was for the mostly part of his early parts of his career? Yeah, I mean, even in that three-game skid, he threw some picks. They were all in the second half.

They were all, you know, with the 49ers, you know, trying to come from behind. And that's the one box that Brock Purdy hasn't checked yet. He hasn't had a game in which it's up to him to really rally the team and to make some unbelievable throws. And, you know, basically have a Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen type of game where it's all on his shoulders. He hasn't had that yet. That's kind of how they've set up the roster with so much talent around him.

Well, that's right. I mean, and yesterday's game fell into. into the perfect pattern for the 49ers, which is they score first, they get their running game going, they take the other team's running game out of the equation. I think that Travis Etyn has to be like 35 yards yesterday, nine carries.

This is a guy who was, you know, it was him in McCaffrey as far as carries and snaps this year at the tailback position. Both those guys had been really carrying the loads for their team. He was a non-franchised. factor in this game. My point being that, you know, when the 49ers are playing with the lead, when they've established their own running game, that's the perfect scenario for Brock Purdy. That's the one in which he shines. He's been a little bit rocky in the other scenario when

all that has taken away and it's up to him. They're dropping linebackers in coverage. Things that you would expect a young quarterback. I think this game might have been his 16th start. So we're starting to get to a full season, a cumulative for Brock Purdy's career. But, again, it's easy to forget that, you know, he's basically still a rookie. And he did make some rookie throws, lost track of a middle linebacker here, et cetera, et cetera, in those last three games. Didn't have that scenario come up in this one. I think the thing about Purdy was that we talked about his first throw or his first touchdown

down throw. He was aggressive throughout, and he wasn't chasing by the last three games. And I think that's the most important thing to Kyle Shanahan. Kyle Shanahan, of course, is going to say the head coach things that a quarterback has got to take care of the football. We can't have interceptions. But the thing that really, you know, that Kyle Shanahan really values, that's paramount to Cal Shanahan, is aggressiveness. He wants a quarterback who pushes the ball down the feet. He wants a quarterback who pushes the ball down the field. Shanahan uses the phrase is let it let's let's it rip he uses that all the time. Brock Purdy lets it rip and he let it rip against the Jaguars on Sunday. That's fascinating because that doesn't feel like Purdy's game but maybe he'll grow into that.

Last thing before we get you out of here, you know they got the Eagles in three weeks. You know, maybe the best two teams in the NFC probably right now. As someone who's around this team every day and watched them during this three game win streak and then just absolutely demolish the Jaguars yesterday. What do you know about this team right now that you didn't a month ago? I don't think there's much because we've seen what they just did before. They tend to have a mid-season skid, and then they tend to have a get-right game. And usually it comes against Los Angeles Rams.

That was the one last year they went into L.A. They blew out the Rams. It was the one where Christian McCaffrey threw for a touchdown, ran for a touchdown, and caught a touchdown pass. It was right after that trade. This is sort of the Chase Young version of that, where they go into Jacksonville. And Young is highlighted, and it's the defense that really comes forth.

So, you know, I thought that there's so much veteran leadership on this team, McCaffrey, Fred Warner, Bosa. These guys are cut from the same cloth. And I didn't think that they were going to let this skid get any worse than it did. But, you know, I thought that that might have happened against the Bengals or the Vikings, too. So that was a bit of a surprise. I thought that they would get back to their winning ways at some point. And now the question is whether they can do what they've done in years past, which is kind of keep it going. They've really rolled in the second half of seasons, which has allowed them to, enter January with good momentum.

That Eagles game, December 3rd, they circled that as soon as it came out. They felt like they didn't get a fair shot at the Eagles in the championship game because of the quarterback issues. I can see their point. I can see their point. There was also all sorts of incidents involving family and wives and girlfriends in the stands in Philly, as you might imagine there would be. So I think there's a little extra kind of personal stuff going on there. They've got J. Vaughan Hargrave, who is the next Eagle. So it's layers and layers and layers of storylines going into this game. This is the one that they have underscored all season long.

So it's going to be, you know, we're talking about it. And it's almost a month away. So it's going to be their biggest regular season game. and I don't think it's even close to what number two is. I can't wait. They got the bucks and the Seahawks. They'll probably take care of business with those two. Then they've got the Philadelphia Eagles, like you said.

I believe the Eagles see the Chiefs next week. So a couple big weeks for the Eagles, but then, like you said, this one's personal for the 49ers. Breaking news, the 49ers are fine. The three-gade skid. They look like themselves yesterday. And as muddied as the AFC picture is right now in the playoffs, the NFC is not in the playoffs. The NFC is not, and the 49ers have been and will be one of the top teams as we enter the playoffs. Thanks for having us, Matt, and we'll catch up with you in a couple weeks.

All right. Sounds good. Thanks for having me on. That's a wrap. For Keefer in the Beats, Week 10, I want to thank Matt Burroughs in San Francisco, Matt Schneidman in Green Bay, and Zach Jackson in Cleveland, for hopping on on on busy Mondays in between press conferences, open locker rooms, chasing injury news. Our beat writers are the best. So thank you for them for hopping on and sharing so much info and insight. on the teams they cover. And we will catch up with you guys next week. This was the Athletic Football Show.