The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Keefer (but this week, Robert) and the Beats: The Commanders choose a path, the Giants lose their QB, and the Vikings have a new folk hero

Episode Date: November 7, 2023

Zak Keefer spent the week in Germany for Chiefs-Dolphins, so Robert Mays takes his chair on this week's episode of Keefer and the Beats. Robert is joined by The Athletic NFL beat writers Ben Standig, Dan Duggan and Alec Lewis to discuss the Commanders finally choosing a path, the huge decisions facing the Giants, and the birth of a folk hero in Minnesota.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Ben on Twitter: @BenStandigFollow Dan on Twitter: @DDuggan21Follow Alec on Twitter: @alec_lewisSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeThis episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/MAYSand get on your way to being your best self. Find your bright spot this season, with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp dot com slash MAYS today to get 10% off your first month. That’s better HELP dot com slash MAYS.Sign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial period at SHOPIFY DOT COM SLASH mays. Go to SHOPIFY DOT COM SLASH mays now to grow your business–no matter what stage you’re in. SHOPIFY DOT COM SLASH mays.You’ll be amazed at what you can do with Grammarly. Go to grammarly.com/ATHLETICFOOTBALL to download for FREE today. That’s G-R-A-M-M-A-R-L-Y DOT COM SLASH ATHLETICFOOTBALL.New to Etsy? Use the code HOLIDAY10 for ten percent off your first purchase. That’s code HOLIDAY10. Maximum discount value of fifty dollars. Expires December 31st, 2023. See terms at Etsy dot com slash terms. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays, and this is not Kiefer in the Beats. This is Robert Mays takes over Kiefer in the Beats for at least one week. Zach was covering the game between the Dolphins and the Chiefs in Frankfurt, so I am stepping in. Really appreciate him giving me the chance to do that. Very excited about some of the conversations to be coming on this show.

It was an eventful day in the NFL, and we were going to dig into, not only what happened on Sunday, but some of the longer-term perspective that comes with some of those results. Ben Standig, who has not joined us this year, is going to come on and chat about what happened over the last week in Washington. They trade away Montes Sweat and Chase Young. What does that signal for the future of this franchise? What does it signal for the future of Ron Rivera? What sort of input does Josh Harris, their new owner, have on what this looks like and why? Very excited to talk to Ben.

Josh Dobbs had a wild day, a wild week, going to Minnesota. and then having to take over as their starting quarterback yesterday on very short notice, all of even the operational aspects of what that offense looked like for the Vikings and their win against Atlanta were fascinating. Alec Lewis, our Vikings writer at the Athletic is going to join us to discuss all of that and how it all came together for Josh Dobbs and the Vikings yesterday. And then also joining us today, Dan Duggan, who covers the Giants for us and has for several years, it's familiar territory now for Dan.

What was a playoff team last year is now a team that is greening toward another lost season and potentially a top pick in this year's draft. Dan is going to join us to talk about the whiplash that has happened with this Giants team over the last year or so, how they've arrived in this moment and what the future looks like for a team in New York that is facing down a reality they did not expect to see in 2023. Let's get to it. It's time now to chat with our Washington correspondent at the athletic who covers the Washington. football team for us. It's Ben Stand-Dick. Ben, thank you very much for joining us. I love that you're sticking to not calling them by whatever nickname they currently have. I've still never done it and I still don't plan to. So we're not going to start today.

Look, a lot of fans agree with your stance. So fair enough. Before we get to yesterday's game, I want to revisit what's happened over the past week because it's obviously been a very eventful week for this franchise and for their outlook moving forward. They trade both Montes-Sweat and Chase Young, which was a little bit surprising. I think everyone assumed that they would probably trade one of those guys heading to the deadline. Let's just talk briefly about the process that led to trading both of those guys and then the corresponding prices for both of them, because I think that might have been a little bit surprising for people as well. Yeah, I mean, look, I've been talking about this for a couple of years now,

that when you draft four defensive linemen in the first round and four consecutive drafts, at some point, you have to make a decision on one or two of them. You can't extend all of them to second contracts realistically and have a good roster across the board. They already re-signed Jonathan Allen and Duran Payne. That left Montes-Swett and Chase Young. It seemed pretty clear that Montes-Swett would be the one that they preferred, and that's what I was told, preferred to keep, and that's what I was told right up until the last second

and even after they made the deals. They opened up the window to check with the rest of the world to say, hey, we're willing to potentially move either of them, what do you think? And I think what they were hoping was they would get the best offer they could for Chase Young, make that move. I think it was just concern about the knee injury he had, as well as some frustration with sort of his just general way he goes about his business

in that he's a little too much of a freelancer relative to what they kind of need for him when he's arguably the fourth best lineman of those group, right? So when they open up that window, the offers for Chase Young were not that great. I think the fact that they honestly got the third round capacity. is not bad for where he was at the start of the year, had missed, you know, more or less, about, you know, 22 games in a row and didn't play much at the end of last year, etc. But then the Montess Wet offer started getting pretty interesting. Atlanta was in there.

And then obviously the Bears came hot and heavy with that early, potentially that early second round pick. And I think they just decided, look, we've already made the investments with Payne and Allen. We have a new owner coming in who likes, who likes, the landscape, right? They've got 90 million in cap space. They've got all their draft picks. They're not tied to any particular quarterback. They're realistically probably going to move on from the coaching staff. Why do we want to add on more money here when we have this clean slate? The new owners haven't done anything yet because they bought the team late. So I think that's how it ended up where they ended up going with two, that the sweat offer was just too good to pass on.

And I think they were just over Chase Young, not to mention, I don't think they saw themselves paying him even the tag at $21 million next year. So this was a good way they felt to kind of stay with what looks like it's a bit of a reload, refresh, whatever you want to say next year. And, you know, they still have Allen and Payne on the line. It's not like the defensive line now of a sudden is barren. So I think they hope that they can sort of have their cake and eat it too. It all makes sense.

The Chase Young perspective is important because this is stuff we don't understand unless you're following the team very closely. In our minds, when we were talking about him on this show a couple weeks ago, I was like, he's 24 years old. His production's been very good this year. There aren't that many pathways to finding impactful edge rushers. What might he be worth on the trade market? And the term that you used multiple times in writing about these moves is that there are sources

inside the building that saw this as addition by subtraction, which was a little bit surprising when you think about his pedigree and what he was putting on the field this year. But when you put that into context, the returns for him make a little bit more sense. Montes-Swed is somebody that has never missed a game, has been consistently productive, has been, by all accounts, a very good presence in the building. So when you understand the full picture, the returns for both of those guys make a little bit more sense.

But again, initially, it was a little bit surprising when you think about their backgrounds and even what they've looked like on the field so far this year. Yeah, I mean, sweat's definitely the more durable of the two. He did miss a couple of games in 2021. He had a broken jaw and he had some real tragedy in his family. But overall, he's basically been a very healthy player for them. Chase Young, obviously, got hurt in 2021. and really did not get back to form at all until early this season.

So there were questions there. Contract years work wonders, baby. Yeah, absolutely. Here's the thing on the Chase Young. Look, Chase seems like a reasonable young man. He's had some good production this year. There's no denying the athleticism and the physical strength he has. I think he's been one of those athletes, though,

that has made it on natural ability through high school, through college. and I don't think he has quite figured out that there's more, you've got to do more in the pros than just rely on that sort of God-given ability. And I don't think he's gotten there hopefully for his sake. And maybe I guess, you know, whether it's the Niners or somebody else who was going to make a long-term invest with him, he figures that out as well. Here was the moment for me that I began to say, you know what, I think I'm going to be out on the Chase Young situation.

It was back in 2021, the team was two and six. They were coming off the bye week. And that offseason, Chase Young had skipped all the voluntary workouts, keyword voluntary, but basically he was like the only one that kind of did that. He didn't just skip it. He went on family feud. He was doing commercials. I'm sure he was working at as well.

But nonetheless, he was doing these other things. And when he was asked, at that point, mind you, he had one and a half sacks through eight games, he was asked, does he think that that offseason priority impacted what he has been, the limited production he had generated so far? and his answer essentially was, no, I went to make that money you would have done the same thing. I don't think he said it in like a screw everybody else kind of way. I just don't think he understands. I think for him, he's already famous.

So what are we all complaining about? He's already gotten there, except he hadn't, right? He hadn't actually gotten to the level that people were predicting where he would be the next Bosa brother right out of Ohio State or one of these, you know, game wrecking defense events. and to me that was like, okay, he doesn't quite get it yet. And I still don't think he does. I think he worked harder this offseason, but I don't think he's ready to, he's put in that work or understands what he has to do. And I think that's kind of where Ron Rivera and staff kind of,

we're just getting frustrated. And you combine that with the injury history. And it's a sensible move from Washington's perspective when you consider all of that, also a sensible move for San Francisco. We're betting on a guy with all this talent. We're bringing him into our infrastructure that's gotten the most out of players at this position specifically. So I think a little bit of a win-win and a move that really does track for both sides.

Beyond the individual moves, though, this all really did feel like a signal that things are changing in this organization. You did a roundtable with a couple of other NFC East riders at the athletic, and you said that your favorite move of the deadline was Washington choosing a path toward the future under new managing partner, Josh Harris. The move for years in these parts was to ignore the reality of the team's roster and potential. And this feels like a consideration and an acknowledgement of the reality of the team's roster and potential. So what do you think these trades specifically say about the future of this franchise under Josh Harris? Right. So Ron Rivera, not famously associated with analytics. That was viewed as one of the reasons why he was out at Carolina when the new ownership came in. And, you know, okay, fine.

they only had one person in their analytics department prior to earlier this year. They hired a second analyst. And then, like a week or two before the deadline, it was announced that they were hiring Eugene Shen as the basically VP of football strategy. He would oversee the analytics department. This is somebody whose background is in the Sloan conference. Darrell Mori's shindig that he began. Darry, of course, is Josh Harris's general manager with the 76ers. This move screamed of Josh Harris input.

And that was the move to me that said, okay, they are going to trade either young or sweat. Because as I was saying, there's no logical scenario where they re-sign all four of these guys. And the idea of letting one of them go walking for agency to maybe get a 2025 third round comp pick when you have, by the way, 90 million in cap space. You're never going to get that because you're going to spend. Yeah, exactly. That mindset just never tracks for a team in their specific situation. Right. And I just don't know that I saw the Rivera group alone going there because they would be looking more like, well, we just have to win the next game and go and figure it out. So this to me screamed bigger picture. And I think therefore, to your point, this is why the Josh Harris situation is so interesting.

You know, he literally bought the team the day before training camp started. He had no input on what was happening with the roster. So this has begun, his imprint is now starting. It'll obviously take greater shape in the offseason once they determine the fate of Rivera and his staff and who they would bring in if they do move on. But this was that moment. And like I said, they still have Allen and Payne on the line. They still have two guys who made the Pro Bowl last year. I don't think they have played at that level so far. But, you know, good players obviously, you're not starting over there.

But at the same point, you had to do something. And this was acknowledging, okay, we are going to do that. We'll deal with the ramifications in the short term as needed. But long term, this is where we need to go. You and I have talked about this in the past when we sit down during training camp and we just look at this team in their trajectory. And I'm just sitting there beating the table saying, just pick a path. Just pick a path. And they had not for so long. And that's what this feels like. At least it's a choice. And I think that no matter who you are as a Washington fan, you can talk yourself into that. I'm curious. independent of the last week. Are there any other areas, any other examples that you've seen of how things are shifting and changing a little bit under this leadership, or have they been a little bit more hands off? They've been pretty hands off, as far as I can tell to this point.

I mean, you know, in fairness to Ron Rivera, he was in a tough spot. One Stan Snyder put the team up for sale. Not that that end result wasn't what everybody was hoping for. But in the interim, they really couldn't do that much financially. Yes, they did resign around paying. to a pretty extensive deal. But their free agent moves otherwise were pretty, you know, light. They took some, you know, basic swings in free agency, some offensive linemen, but nobody

broke the bank. Andrew Wiley doesn't scream of ambitions. Right, exactly. Nick Gates, who's already been bench as well. So they were really hoping, I think, banking on some of their young guys stepping up. But again, I think they just were kind of their hands were tied. They really weren't allowed to spend or even resign or extend some of their guys. guys who are going to be free agents next year.

So I think Rivera was kind of stuck. And I don't think Harris has come in yet and said, let me unstick you. Unstuck you. They haven't extended your Cam Curls or your Antonio Gibson's or Curtis Samuels. Should you want to do any of that? So I think this is all about waiting. And like I said, they've got 90 million in cap space projected. They now have nine picks for the draft, including five in like basically the top 100.

That's a pretty good spot to be. you're sort of wanting to give this whole look a refresh. And by the way, the three best players on the team, Terry McClure and John Allen, Duran Payne, are all under contract. Yep. So, and then, you know, then there's the Sam Howl component. It looks like he's becoming, you know, potentially legit quarterback. So they have a lot of building blocks, even having traded away, sweat and young,

plus all this money. I mean, it's, you know, I don't think they have to go to the bottom, the quarterback situation to decide to figure out what to do. But, like, they already have a decent foundation. to have the wherewithal now to make more moves. And I think that's where we'll see the Harris imprint really come in. Let's reset the roster a little bit with Sweat and Young Gone. Like you mentioned, John Allen, McClorin Payne are the three guys they've committed real money to.

So we know that they're going to be part of this moving forward, as they should be. Those are very good players. Who are the other pillars of this in your mind, no matter which direction they end up going? Because Camp Curl, like you mentioned, is a free agent. Logan Thomas and Charles Leno, other guys they've committed to, they'll be 33 next year. They can move on from them this offseason without incurring much dead money onto the cap.

So who are the other guys that you think will be part of this no matter which direction they end up choosing? Yeah. So, you know, they've had some good hits we think in the draft in recent years, John Dodson, who I know fantasy owners are excited, is finally picked it up a little bit the last couple weeks. Brian Robinson, you know, this is one of the oddest things about this year has been how much Eric Bienmi has leaned into the past as opposed to the run, considering the young

quarterback and the shaky line. Nonetheless, Brian Robinson is a guy who's shown he can be a workhorse back. I think those are two guys. They'll be around. And I think Sam Cosme, their second round pick in 2021, he's moved from tackle to guard. I think he's been better there, not saying he's going to be a future branded shirts, but I think he's somebody that you can say, we have a piece here we can look at. They're hoping in the secondary that, like, Benjamin St. Juist, I think, continues to progress.

Kendall Fuller is another free agent, so St. Juice might find himself in that top cornerback spot. They drafted Emmanuel Forbes in the first round. He obviously has had a pretty miserable first half of the year, although he was significantly better in this last game against a New England passing attack that's kind of, you know, pedestrian to say the least. So I think those are some of the guys that they're looking at. They've got big questions, a linebacker. I think most of the offensive line is something they're going to have to fix or retool. next year. And, you know, the tight end room is not that dynamic. And Logan Thomas could be gone at his age. So they do have a bunch of holes. But again, if they end up resigning some of their guys

and then on top of that, use that some of the rest of that for agent money to get some significant pieces. I think they could be in a decent shape quickly. But it's three. Sort of those top three, I didn't mention Sam Howe. But then, yeah, you got Hal Robinson, Dodson, then kind of see from there. That's, I think, an illuminating way to lay out the roster because that's where they are. It's those top three and not much else. I think that's why you make the sorts of moves that they've made over the last week or so when you think about all the resources that you now have at your disposal. So Washington wins yesterday.

Some more impressive moments from Sam Howell. Ron Rivera and even some of the guys in the locker room, Jonathan Allen, specifically yesterday, have openly talked about how they think they've found their guy in Sam Howell. How real do you think that is in the rest of the building where they don't necessarily have as much self-interest in Sam Howe working out as Ron Rivera might? Like you laid out in your piece yesterday. Yeah. I mean, the Rivera part of the constant Sam Hal praise to me has been pretty transparent that he has had multiple times just trying to change the subject. You know, they named Sam How effectively QB1 like six or eight days after the season.

He had played one game and then Ron Rivera even told Albert Breer in an interview that he had, I had no idea that Sam Howe had that much good to him until he saw him play. And then six or eight days later, he's QB1. I think he wanted to change the topic from how did you guys blow the playoff spot at the end of the year? And how on earth did you trade for Carson wins? It works. We all stopped talking about that and move forward. And now this year, the last three weeks, hey, how come we lost to the Giants?

Well, not great, but we have this promising young quarterback. Hey, how come he didn't beat the Eagles? Well, it's all about the promising young quarterbacks. What are you doing to the trade deadline? Well, we decided we could make those deals because we have this promising young quarterback. It largely seems like he's just trying to make that the topic. The thing is, it's becoming the topic. Sam Howell's been good.

Whether a new GM or new head coach, should they go to that route, feels the same. I think that's going to be the million dollar question. If Hal keeps doing what he's done the last couple weeks, there may not be any debate because he does look, he has a lot of traits that you like. the big arm, he's not afraid, he's got a pretty calm demeanor, and the players are starting to buy in more and more. So I think there's something to the Sam Howe thing. They've also been largely, his best performances have been largely against not so great defenses.

I think New England was the top defense they faced this year per DVOA at 14. Otherwise, their wins are over Arizona, Chicago, I'm sorry, Arizona, Denver, and Atlanta. And even Philadelphia's defense is like 21st in DVOA and Hal lit them up. So there's a lot of good stuff. Well, let's see what happens as they go forward. They play Dallas twice, San Francisco. I think that those games could really shape how the organization really looks at him going forward.

His set rate is more livable now. It was historic over the first month of the season. It was at 14.6, which is just absolutely ridiculous. It's been 8.6% over the last five weeks, which is the eighth highest in the NFL. It's a very high sack rate. But it's not something you can live with. It's like, all right, this is while a downside to his play, you can sustain offense with a quarterback taking this amount of sacks.

And he's still what? Nine starts into his career. It's still very, very early for a fifth round pick. So I get some of the optimism that's brewing. Do you have any sense of how people in the building outside of this coaching staff or front office leadership views Sam howl as a potential building block moving forward? I mean, I think they're hopeful. You know, the, the Josh Harris group, while Josh Harris himself has been, you know, he's got he owns

several teams and he used to be a very, you know, minority partner for the Steelers. You know, this is still somewhat of a new world to him. So they said off the bat, we're coming in to focus on things like a new stadium and re-engaging with the fan base. We're going to let the football stuff sort of play out. So I think they're hopeful, but I don't think they recognize what they know what they don't, they know what they don't know, right? Ultimately, I think they're going to have to bring into people.

Again, I mentioned this VP of football strategy they brought in. I think that's a first start towards them getting some hands-on information data, somebody on the ground to give them a view of what's going on. And I think that will probably help shape how they've used Sam How. But even just as a casual observer, there's a lot to like. Like I said, he's been pretty dynamic at times. You put a highlight package of his best throws together. I think most quarterbacks in the league would say, yeah, I'm good.

You can put my name on those. That looks pretty good to me. and, you know, even on the sacks, which you mentioned, and his inability to get rid of the ball quickly was a huge part of that. But in the last two weeks, they've made two different changes on the offensive line, and I feel like Eric B. Enemy is finally calling an offense towards this team as opposed to what he was doing with the Chiefs. And I think with a lot of quick passes,

just understanding what he has a quarterback and other positions is very different than what he had there. And I think that's helped as well. So it's hard to judge based on what we've seen. But like I said, I think everybody is on board with the idea that he could be the guy, but there's still eight games to go. And that's going to tell the tale for sure. Teams have talked themselves into way worse quarterbacks and quarterbacks who've shown far fewer flashes than Sam Howe has this year. Last question for you, all of these big picture things that they have to address, these big picture plans,

whether Sam How is the quarterback, how they're going to spend this free agent money. do you think that Ron Rivera and the current football leadership is going to be the group overseeing those decisions in 2024? I don't. I just don't, you know, look, they're four and five right now. We have seen Ron Rivera teams year after year have big runs over the middle part of the year, put themselves back in the playoff position. I mean, even right now, there are only one game behind a Minnesota team that, you know, has Josh Dobbs, a quarterback after being there for 10 seconds. So, you know, if they somehow, Washington somehow wins at Seattle this week, they're back to 500, and then we'll see. But I don't know.

I just don't see that based on what we have observed this year, that they're really going to have enough of a comeback to justify most likely a fourth consecutive non-winning record. And, you know, new owners, they like to bring in their own people. That's not even a knock on Rivera. That's just a reality of how this goes. So I'm going to guess it'll be a new staff. And by the way, like Washington's offseason free agency in the same. the draft has been absolutely miserable. Like almost nothing has worked at all.

So I think if your ownership, you're going to say, well, at a minimum, we've got to probably have a new front office lead. And at that point, that person's probably going to say, hey, we need a new coach as well. That would be my guess at this stage. It's a natural reset point. All the resources that they have, the moves that they made, this would be a time where it would make sense to make a decision like that. And it really does feel like it's probably trending in that direction.

Ben Standig, thank you very much for the time, sir. Always great to chat with you, especially after an eventful week for this franchise. We'll catch up soon. Robert, appreciate it. Thanks. We're joined now by one of our wonderful New York Giants writers here at the athletic Dan Duggan. Dan, very good to chat with you. Appreciate you joining us.

Yeah, well, glad to be here. Are you, though? Are you glad to be here? Because there's a lot going out right now. It has been one hell of a stretch for the New York Giants and for somebody who is very familiar with, let's call it the rhythms of following this team and covering this team. Let's start with the news from the last 12 hours or so. Daniel Jones confirmed has a torn ACL.

He will miss the rest of the season. Any sort of prospective context updates you can give on what we learned about Daniel Jones this morning. No, I mean, it was pretty much confirmed, but it was kind of painfully obvious immediately. You know, we've all been around seen enough that there's enough Twitter docs out there that diagnose these things immediately. just, and I will say though, having been around

locker rooms, there was no like, oh, maybe it's okay. Like, guys didn't want to say it because, you know, they still need to do the MRI, but it was very clear that they all were aware

of the gravity of the situation. I mean, listen, guys get hurt every week in this league, but it hit a little harder. You figure this guy is, A, very well regarded, whatever you think about as a quarterback, very well regarded in that locker room.

And he just came back from what was another serious injury, a neck injury. I missed three games at that. And only last one quarter and a play, I guess, before this injury. And again, everyone knew what it was. And now it's, you know, I don't think guys in the moment are thinking what we're probably going to get into is like what it means for the future. But anyone who's thinking that, it's even bleaker because it's not just, oh, man,

he's got a nine-month recovery ahead. His entire career is kind of in the balance now, which is wild to think for a guy who signed a contract that you thought gave a good amount of security, what, eight months ago now. Security for him and direction for the franchise, right? They were trying to accomplish a very specific thing. We're going to build around a mid-tier quarterback and a mid-tier quarterback contract because we think that we can be competitive in the short term.

We think that we can be a team that is relevant in the NFC, even if we're not a Super Bowl contender quite yet. That was, I think, the justifiable mindset of this organization coming into the year. We had so many discussions on this show and elsewhere about just the general level of optimism around the NFL this summer, because so many teams who, had been in dire circumstances recently, the Giants, the Jets. There was hope. There was reason to be optimistic about where this thing was going.

It has changed so fast for this Giants team specifically. We go from winning a playoff game 11 months ago to you tweeting out this morning that you're talking to Andrew Thomas about how the back half of, I believe it was the 2021 disaster season that they had was really important for his personal development. What has it been like just kind of observing? the whiplash mindset-wise that is currently happening around this team. Yeah, I mean, it's wild. I'm more well-versed covering these types of seasons, unfortunately.

I've been on the beat in 2016 and 2016 and 22 the playoff years. Certainly stick out of the aberrations. But no, I mean, definitely, this is similar to 2017 in some regards, but I won't get into all the reason why it's different. Just in the sense, you're coming up and playoff win. There was optimism, so I don't want to say this is like unprecedented. But how quickly this has devolved has been pretty remarkable. And just sort of the finality that comes with this injury to Jones where it's like,

like you said, like they were thinking, we're going to build around this guy, you know, whatever the virtues of that were. That was the path they were taking. And now he started six games this year, only finished four. And we're already saying like, well, that plans out the window. I mean, that's remarkable. So, I mean, now it's like, where do they go from here? I mean, you're two and seven.

You're going to start Tommy DeVito, an undrafted rookie for probably the balance of the season. I don't even think Tyrod Taylor is going to come back. he's at least on IR for three more games. So the parallels of 2021 are pretty strong in the sense that it got Mike Glennon and Jake Fromm and it was just completely unwatchable football. You're scoring like six points a game. And that seems like it's very much in the cards here. And they have eight games to go, which is the other part that's kind of amazing to think

about here. They have half a season to endure ahead of them here. So yeah, I mean, I think it's going to get darker before there's brighter days ahead. That's for sure. Because again, this is a long way to go. If Tyrod can't play, do you think they're going to be comfortable just rolling with Tommy DeVito for the rest of the season? I mean, I think you give him one week here as a starter going into Dallas. Obviously, he's coming in and relief, not very great situations to put him in.

You give him a week at the QB1, taking all the reps. It's probably going to go very bad at Dallas. I think you probably give him one more game after that. I think maybe commanders is next. Trust me, everything's running together in my mind at this point. And then there's a bye week. So if he's just horrible in these next two games, you have Matt Barclay. He was kind of like, I mean, listen, he's not going to inspire much, but he's like,

he's like a hold the fort type veteran. Matt Barclay has started for all of our teams. Every team has had Matt Barclay as its quarterback for a two or three game stretch. It's a familiar experience for NFL fans. Yeah. So, I mean, listen, you'd hope that Tommy DeVio can just show enough. Because we see like unheralded quarterbacks around the league that like aren't great, but like have been competent this season.

Like if he can just give you that, I mean, listen. Giants fans don't want them to win any games, but just don't be completely inapt. That'd be great. If you can just get you through the season, hey, the silver linings, we've got a cheap backup maybe for the future. More likely than not, it's probably not going to go that well, and we'll probably end up seeing Matt Barclay. They're in relief or start a game or two.

And then I think they're probably going to add another quarterback. So maybe whoever that mystery quarterback is maybe finishes it out. I mean, it's, again, it's going to be absolutely brutal because it's just so much time left in the season. It's not like we're just, hey, you've got to finish out these two or three games. We're talking about half a season they've got to get through. Outside of the quarterback play and outside of how rough that contract looks in retrospect, I want to try to separate some of the other issues that we've seen from this team.

Obviously, the offensive line injuries have been ridiculous and what they've had to endure. But are there areas that you can kind of separate from injury and quarterback play that have been particularly disappointing when you think about what this team was supposed to be this year and the steps that they were supposed to take? It's hard. I mean, I think it's like, what I've tried to do in the last week or so is pull back even farther. Because if we go back to last off season, I'm talking to 2022, everyone, I know me and you had conversations, any kind of national pundit and local pundit, really, thought they're like a four or five win team. They go out and start seven and two and it's like, how the hell is this happening?

But it was, you know, obviously it's great. You want that. You want to win. And they win a playoff game. But if you go to the midpoint of that seven and two, they played 17 games since then, they're four, 12 and one. So it's kind of like this is who we thought they were all along. So it's that seven and two is the aberration where you remember those games. There's the going for two against Tennessee.

Baltimore is kind of a crazy anywhere where Lamar throws a terrible pick and has a fumble. And they beat Green Bay in London. So there was a lot of stuff going on there where it's like, this is crazy. It was a fun ride. But I think you kind of knew at some point the bottom would come out. I didn't think it would come out quite so dramatically. And that's where I do think the injuries. I mean, we can't ignore them.

They exacerbated things. You know, Seco, I'm missing three games. Andrew Thomas missing seven. Daniel Jones missing three games. I mean, those are important pieces, and they just didn't have enough to withstand losing guys like that. They put a tough schedule, too. So there's just nothing worked in their favor this year,

whereas everything seemed to break their way at the start of last season. But the moves they made this off season didn't indicate that they thought they were closer to the beginning than the end. There was a level of urgency with the Jones contract, with some of the other things they did in free agency, where it felt like they were trying to at least compete in the short term. But now it almost, feels like we're going all the way back to square one.

I find myself in a position where I'm thinking, all right, like, who are the building blocks on the roster? Like, where you're almost starting over. And that to me is kind of the biggest question. It's like, okay, the moves that they've made to find foundational pieces, which of those in your mind has worked out and which haven't? Because if you look at some of these early draft picks, like, Banks has been pretty good this year.

Like, that's something we're like, okay, we can build on this moving forward. Tibino, we can build on this moving forward. Evan Neal has been a little bit, that's been disappointing. So that almost feels like the mindset and the approach you have to take in judging this team is, we're at ground zero now. How do we start to build this thing over the next couple years? And that didn't feel like where they thought they were heading into this season based on some of the other moves they made. No, for sure.

I mean, I think it's easy to say now that they made some miscalculations this offseason. I'm sure if they had a due over, they wouldn't have made this investment in Daniel Jones. And even the way they handled Sequin with the franchise tag and trading for Darren Waller, a lot of these moves there at the time, you could definitely understand the rationale. You know, we get paid to analyze them after the fact. They get paid to be right and have the foresight. They didn't work out. It doesn't look good for them.

As far as like the foundational pieces, I mean, obviously they do have Andrew Thomas. They do have Dexter Lawrence, guys like that that are locked up for the long term. So much of it is going to depend on how these draft picks pan out. Like you said, Evan Neal, that's been a disappointment. And that ties into just the offensive line because you start looking ahead. You have Andrew Thomas or feel good about him. you have Senator John Michael Smith they took in the second round this year.

I mean, sure, I think you feel pretty good about him. They basically have three other spots that you can't feel good about it at all. I mean, the guards right now are Ben Bredesen, who looks like he's a future journeyman who was the last year of his deal. Justin Pugh, who literally signed off the coach. Evan Neal is his future going to be kicking into guards?

And then you have to go get a tackle after spending a top 10 pick on one two years ago. So there are definitely a lot of questions. I think they probably got swept up a bit in the success, which again, it's understandable. easy for us. What a mistake that was. And I think, again, pulling it way back, if this was the season they had last year,

it would have been better in a way because they came in with absolutely. It would have been. They came in with no expectations. If Daniel Jones was bad and then gets injured, it's like, okay, you know, clean your hands of him. You're not bringing the sake one back. You're letting you're being more aggressive in terms of stockpiling pictures of future and all that stuff and said they kind of went forward a little bit this year.

They kind of tried to tow that line, which is very difficult to do. And now, you know, like you said, they're back at square one. They're going to be back trying to get a quarterback in this year's draft. Again, within a year of giving a guy a $160 million contract. When you look at the cap, it's fascinating because in almost every aspect, they're a rebuilding team. They should have $100 million in cap space right now. The reason they only have 60 is because their quarterback has a $47 million cap hit next year.

It's just such an interesting combination of what feels like two separate timelines. And I think that trading Leonard Williams last week is an admission of what? what timeline you're actually on. So the only thing that is a remnant of the other plan is now the quarterback contract. And now it becomes a question of how do you balance those two realities? If they get to a place with Tommy DeVito at quarterback where they're picking first or second in this year's draft, which does not feel like that far off of a possibility, now you're likely drafting a quarterback with one on the roster already who has a $47 million cap bet that

you can't get out of. And that's not the worst outcome. Like you can absolutely balance that and kind of figure out what it looks like over the next two years. It's just shocking to see them in this place and see them facing that reality. Yeah, I mean, it's not the worst outcome. It's far from ideal. But yeah, and the real scary scenario that I don't think Giants fans want to even consider is, let's say they scrap together two or three wins and they're picking fourth or fifth. And then, you know, the May and Williams are gone.

Then what do you do? because not only do you have questions about Daniel Jones, you don't know if he's going to be ready for week once. You need to have some other quarterback plan. So that's where it's really scary if you're a Giants fan. So, yeah, I don't know. They're in a tough spot. Even they draft the guy, it's going to be tricky because you have to keep Daniel Jones around.

And it's like, how is that going to work? I mean, like he's a great teammate and everything. That's going to be put to the test. If he's in the prime of his career being forced to back up some rookie, I don't know. The dynamics next year are going to be absolutely fascinating. But obviously, we have to even just get to that point again because there's no guarantee they're going to end up with one of these top quarterbacks, even if that's the ideal outcome from where they sit right now. There isn't at all.

Maybe you're in a position now with that extra second round pick where you have some ammunition to move up. But you have to find a partner who's willing to give up a chance to get one of those two quarterbacks. And there just aren't that many teams who I think could land there who would be in that position. Carolina is giving away their first round pick. I do think that Arizona is more likely to trade Kyler Murray than play out the string with him if they get one of those picks. So there are going to be a lot of people fighting for those two seats at the table. It's not going to be easy to try to jam your way in there if you don't own one of those two picks. It's just, it's such a fascinating place for them to have landed.

And, you know, we've seen this a little bit before where you have a guy who's a veteran on the roster, but it's Alex Smith in his mid-30s playing on a contract. He signed two or three years earlier. It's not a 27-year-old guy who has the ninth biggest cap hit among all quarterbacks in the league. So beyond just the roster considerations, I wanted to ask you, what do you think you've learned about Brian Dable this year that maybe you didn't understand last year? Now that they've had to go through something like this, how do you think your perception of him and his ability to kind of oversee this moving forward has changed if it has at all? that's a great question and i'll start with a cop-out answer while i buy myself some time i think we're going to learn a lot about it maybe over these next eight weeks in the sense that he always says

even when things are going good like you learn about your team you learn about your players during adversity so like he's he's encountering adversity like he never could have imagined you know like there's rough patches for every coach you know even if you lose games but what's facing him over these next eight weeks you have his avian mckinny kind of popping off post games and the coaches aren't listening to the leaders. And that's the first crack. And now it's on him to make that be the only crack and not let it kind of spider web out from there

and become a bigger problem. Because again, I have way too much institutional knowledge on coaching hires and fires and then two years and how quickly things you never thought could go off the rails do. I don't suspect they'll have a Brian Dable, but I also can't sit there and promise that it won't. Because again, I didn't think Ben McHood

coming off 11-1 season would get fired. I didn't think Joe Judge would get fired in year or two. And again, things can, kind of spiral. So I think that's going to be put to the test. As far as him as a coach, I don't think he forgot how to like scheme offense, but I do think he pressed, it seemed like every button he pressed last year worked. This year, it feels the opposite. It's just been like this Murphy's Law season where everything, if he goes from a fourth down, they don't get it. If he doesn't go front of a fourth down, they missed the field. Like stuff that's almost out of your control, but at the

end of the end of the day, like we're evaluating kind of process and results. And the results just have been abysmal in every way shape of form this year. You look at what happened. The Seattle game obviously was very visible. A Monday night game was nationally televised. They have the, let's call it, disagreement before halftime with Daniel Jones, and everyone watches that dynamic. Do you feel like that has kind of crept in a little bit more as you've talked to people

in the building about just the overall tone that the coaching staff has with the players? Or do you feel like that's a little bit of an aberration and maybe blown up in people's minds because we all got to watch it happen? No, I think it's blown up. Yeah, maybe because on national TV, also probably blown up because of the state of the team. But that's how Daibel is. It's funny. It just doesn't really raise eyebrows when they're winning.

He did it week one last year. If you go back to that Tennessee game, which again, I'm sure it wasn't on a national broadcast. Jones threw a terrible interception in the end zone in the fourth quarter of that game. Obviously, they overcame it. And Davele was reaming him out on the sideline. And it was like a whoa type moment. This is first game with this guy and you're in his face.

We didn't see it again after that. You didn't see Dave'll blow his top on other players as the season's been on, on referees. You might remember Thanksgiving Day. He, like, was, his head was about to explode over a call against the Cowboys, like a touchdown got taken off the board. So, like, that's how he coaches. That Seattle moment definitely kind of felt like a crystallization of just the pent-up

frustration. And, like, because, I mean, listen, they had their, Daniel Jones wasn't their guy. They had different ways to not fully commit to him. They did. And that just, that moment just kind of felt like, why did we do that? You know what I mean? Just like, the pent-up frustration. I'm like, this guy is just not it.

And it's just, it was a tough scene for Jones. I don't think it would make Dave a look great. But, I mean, that's just how he is. He is very, very, let's see, he's a live wire on the sideline. You saw Tyraud Taylor even when they bought to the end of the half in the Buffalo game. Like, he doesn't do a great job of kind of keeping his composure when things go bad. I mean, I think Monday through Saturday, he's pretty good with the guys. But Sunday, yeah, he can lose his cool.

And I think that tablet flip there at the Seattle game is probably one of the more like lasting image of this season that's totally gone off track. Which is why I ask, because that does seem to be how he is. And even stories about how he was as a coordinator, there is a little bit of a temper. He has that sort of kind of fiery mindset about him. When things are going well, that's framed as a good thing. Or you forget that that's the case. When things are going poorly, that becomes a little bit more visible.

So do you think that maybe some of those dynamics and some of those aspects of him and the staff that we didn't notice or didn't care about last year, do you think that that is starting to seep into maybe how the locker room feels, how that just the team overall is kind of viewing this season. Are we at a point now where we have to worry if they're keep Trot and Tommy DeVito out there for the rest of the year? There are guys who are important to the future of this team who are going to start looking out in looking sideways at some of the decisions that are being made and just some of how this is going over there. Yeah, 100%. That like that again, that's why my cop-out answer early. That's why we're going to learn a lot about him because yeah, like you can

ream guys out when you're winning. And it's like, yeah, Dave's is so far. fiery and they're laughing off. Guys aren't going to be seeing that when they're, if they're losing 40 to 3 next Sunday against Dallas. And, you know, trust me, people have checked in, and, you know, in the locker room, like, how do you respond to how Dave Lueble blew up on Jones or how he blew up on Tyrod? And everyone kind of has said, oh, no, that's just Dave's.

I think he does do a good job. He's like the parent who yells at their kid and then, like, goes back, you know, half an hour later is like, hey, you want an ice cream. Like, he's good about smoothing things over. He doesn't necessarily, like, create enemies with it because he does have a, uh, personable way about him that I think guys do genuinely like. But again, there is a point where it's like, all right, dude, we're growing mad. You don't need to scream with me like that.

But also, now that you're losing and the season is lost, how to play to respond. That's why I referred to the McKinney comments where he said, like, you know, the coaches aren't really listening to the leaders. I mean, that's a woe comment. Now, I'm sure he'll probably walk it back. Dave will kind of brush his side when he was asked about it. But again, I have seen enough of this. That's the first crack.

If you patch it up real quick, okay. But sometimes that's where thing can go. I mean, you know, will Dexter Lawrence start getting more. and more frustrated. They traded his best friend Leonard Williams away. Moore's going to be put on his shoulders. Kavon, Tibbittal, like there's guys who have big personalities who, you know, they're all rowing in the same direction now. Impossible to predict how things will go.

And especially on the defense I'm going to focus on because, again, if the offense is going out and scoring six points every week, it's just, I mean, the defense is going to be brutal. And then they're going to get questions like, oh, you gave up so many points. Like, well, yeah, they're going three and out every time. So that's the stuff. We'll definitely be keeping an eye on. Again, not too much yet. But again, maybe McKinney was sort of the first drop there and it'll go from there.

We're getting toward the holidays now, Thanksgiving, Christmas. Think a lot of us, you know, do a little bit of overeating. You have to tap into some sweatpants that maybe you haven't worn in a while. I'm sure that's what this feels like for you right now. You're going into the closet and putting on like a pair of comfy clothes that you didn't have to wear for a year or two, but now you're back. It's a familiar feeling for you. It fits like a glove.

Unfortunately, again, my time on this beat is I've seen it all, but mostly this. So I'm feeling like, oh, how do you cover a team like this? Like, oh, no, I got the playbook. You know, there might be a few changes, which keeps it fresh. But now I pretty much know what's ahead. And that's why I'm dreading these next two months. Dan, thank you very much for the time, sir. Always great to chat with you.

We will catch up very soon. All right, likewise, good talking to you. Joining us now, it is a man who has experienced a lot in the last week or so. We're thrilled to have him. Our Vikings writer at the athletic, Alec Lewis. Alec, how are you doing? I'm hanging in, Robert. It's been a world win.

I told Beller right before you got on, I was like, I covered last year's Viking season. It was my first NFL season covering a team, and I thought it was crazy. They won 11-1 score games. My dad would text me after the game and say, be grateful because you're probably not going to experience much like this. And then this year has been something unlike anything I could have imagined. So they're 5 and 4 by hook or by crook. They've done it. So let's start at the beginning of this week.

you wrote beautifully about the subject and the Josh Jobs acquisition and what yesterday looked like on the athletic. Everyone should go check it out. You started that story about talking about interaction that Dobbs had with Garrett Bradbury when he walked into the building where his center introduces himself to his new quarterback. Dobbs has no idea who this person is that's talking to him. And then 78 hours later, they are having to figure out what the Vikings cadence looks like on the sideline because Jaron Hall gets hurt and Josh Dobbs has to be put into that game. So just walk me through just what the last three days were like for Josh Dobbs, even before that game kicked off yesterday. The scene that we started with is the first time I ever saw him here. So I'm staying in the locker room.

We knew we were going to talk to him on Thursday. And he walks in holding a hanger with the red jersey. And it looked like he was like a clubby manager guy. I was like, what is going on? This Josh Jobs. And Garrett Bradbury turns around and he's like, hey, I'm Garrett. And it was just ridiculous. It was crazy.

and Josh spoke to the media right after that, and he talked about how he expected to be the starter against Cleveland this past weekend, and then he was told that he was not going to be the starter, and then he was told later on that he was being traded in the aftermath of Kurt Cousins' ruptured Achilles. He had to fly across the country, acclimate himself to a playbook, and the Vikings were going to take it very slow with them. I'm not very slow, but they definitely did not have plans of throwing them into the five. in this week. I mean, they prepared all week for rookie quarterback Jaron Hall to be the guy. He had not taken first team snaps himself. So the whole week was to integrate him into that system. And then he injures himself. And the Vikings are, yeah, hearing Josh Jobs for the first time on the sidelines in a circular fashion. And it was absurd. I thought you did a very good

job of kind of outlining some of the details that we often forget, right? He gets traded to Arizona on the eve of the season. He's living. out of a suitcase, I assume in a hotel for the first several weeks, even probably month that he's there. I think last week, you said, he finally has his furniture arrive at his place in Arizona. Last week. And then a couple of days later, after having his parents fly out, watch and play a game, he realizes that he's going to be on the move again, living out of a suitcase again without any sort of furniture, without any sort of roots. And this is the situation, the mindset, the reality for the guy who did what he did on Sunday.

And this is a guy who I was told by someone who covered him in Cleveland that when he was in Cleveland, he was living out of a place in Detroit because he had been on the practice squad in Detroit. So this is Josh Dobbs' existence in the NFL. And when he introduced himself here in Minnesota, he said, this is going to be a tremendous story to tell. He looked at all the media members. And he wasn't like playing to the crowd, but he said, you guys all have stories.

You guys all have been different places. and gotten here in such a unique path. And everyone in here has that. And mine, he said mine, I've been on a journey that's taken me to maybe more places than most. And just to have what happened Sunday happened, to have Kevin O'Connell mapping out plays in real time to a guy who barely knew the playbook beyond that week's curated game plan. It's just an impressive and really just kind of heartwarming experience.

and in existence, truthfully. So obviously we saw the clip. Everyone saw, has probably seen it by now of him learning the cadence on the sideline, him taking snaps with Garrett Bradbury. Let's take one step beyond that. Walk me through what the actual operation was before every play and the communication that was going on between him and Kevin O'Connell, pretty much every single huddle yesterday against the Falcons.

Yeah, so the Vikings actually two weeks ago in the Monday night game, the San Francisco 49ers, deployed a no huddle type of, as they would call it, tool in their playbook to be able to get up to the line faster, allow Kirk Cousins, who was healthy at the time, to read the defense and have Kevin O'Connell kind of provide more language prior to the snap than he had in weeks past. And they were utilizing a wristband for the first time. Kirk Cousins didn't want to do it. It was not something that was comfortable for him. It took a lot of negotiation. And he ended up using it. dividends that night and in Green Bay.

And that really was kind of the runway and prep for Josh Dobbs in real time on Sunday. So what happened was Josh Dobbs would huddle up. Kevin O'Connell would read him the language. Josh would repeat the language to the players who knew what that language meant. And then Kevin in Josh's ear would say, this is what you just read and this is what it means. As Josh Dobbs would also be surveying the defense. I don't know if I'm making any sense, but this is literally what was happening. in real time against the Falcons defense that by all advanced metrics had been kind of frisky

and has a level of talent that is, it's not at the bottom of the league. So for it to have happened that way, I mean, I don't know how you can't just be blown away by Kevin O'Connell's ability to provide that layer of tidbits in real time given the chaos of the entire situation. Anything about kind of the specificity, like we get a little bit more granular. Is it, okay, these are the routes on this play, this is the progression on this play? like what were some of the details that he was trying to communicate to him in that, let's call it 10 seconds that you have between getting out of the huddle and when that mic cuts off? Yeah, Kevin O'Connell said it was seven to eight seconds.

And so he said it was what concept on the left side of the page you have? And here's the concept you have on the right side of the page. And then if there was enough time, Kevin O'Connell explained to him how he should probably take his drop where his eyes needed to be on the play. Like, for example, I'll give you, I mean, this is a perfect. example, the game-winning touchdown to Brandon Powell, who, mind you, had tried to limp off the field with cramps, but couldn't because they didn't have enough receivers to be thrust in the game. Brandon Powell aligned on the play, and prior to the snap, Kevin O'Connell told him,

look, if things go correctly, the Falcons are going to run cover four here, the nickel is going to be tucked inside, your eyes need to be to the right, and then when the nickel moves to the right, you're going to find Brandon Powell wide open to the left. And it was a play. that they practiced all week. They got the exact defense that they had game planned for. And the craziest thing about it is Josh Dobbs had not run the play once. So he had just picked up kind of the plan in real time and by watching Jaron Hall operated in practice.

And I don't want to put you in a bad spot, but I'm fascinated by this. You were talking about how Kevin had some baseline knowledge of the language that Josh had used previously. And he was using that to kind of help translate some of these ideas. Do you know how Kevin or why Kevin even sought that out? And was this some of like the Stefansky Browns language? Because I know Drew Petzing, who was with Kevin, used that in Arizona. Like, what was the process of Kevin even knowing some of that terminology?

It goes back to when Kevin first got here with Kirk Cousins. And Kevin and I talked about this in a conversation prior to the season. I sat in his office for 45 minutes. And he was showing me a couple clips of like, Kirk at the beginning of Kirk learning this offense, Kevin would watch clips and he would hear Kirk like mutter to Sean Mannion. This is what we used to call it with Stafansky. And Kevin O'Connell picked that up and picked up that that was Kirk's way of kind of learning the scheme. And so in this situation on the fly, you're exactly right in that Drew Petzing and Kevin Stofansky's systems are not obviously the same.

But there is some kind of, I don't know, crossover with some of these systems. You could probably speak on this a little bit more. So what happened is that when Drew went to, Arizona. You know, Drew, like Kevin, has a varied background schematically. You know, Kevin worked for the Vikings for about a dozen years, and Drew was with him for a good chunk of that time. So they had worked through Brad Childress's offense, Pat Schumer's offense, John DiPhilippo was there. Then they eventually, at a certain point, kind of take on some of that Kubiak language and some of that Kubiak identity. So when Drew, who went to Cleveland

with Kevin, goes to Arizona to become the offensive coordinator, he has to make a decision not only about what the foundational aspects of what the offense will be, but how I'm going to communicate these ideas. And so the reason that Drew just landed on the Brown's kind of Stefansky language is it's the most recent one that he had used. So that those like very circumstantial kind of butterfly effect type things, it only becomes possible for Kevin O'Connell to have that level of knowledge because like 20 other things happened to make their shared experience, to create that shared experience between them,

which I can't even talk right now because it's such nerdy nonsense that I absolutely love. Well, you know, I love this stuff too. So it's great. But seriously, like prior to the season, when I sat in Kevin's offense, he was using words like Kirk used to call this spot. Kirk used to call this dragon, dart. And this is what we call this now. And so that translation, you could see yesterday during the game on the sidelines.

I don't know if people can see me now. but Kevin and Josh were their arms were angled. They were like talking routes, steps, I think probably dagger concept, we called it. So it was crazy. And the fact they were doing it amid the chaos of so many other injuries. I mean, we talked Cam Acres, who has really had a really, I mean, a solid stretch of play since the Vikings acquired him. Prior to the trade deadline, he ruptured his Achilles. K.J. Osborne, one of the clear leaders on this team offensively,

was smashed over the middle and had to exit the game to a concussion. So it was just trial by fire for so many. I mean, David Quessonbury was the left tackle yesterday. Kristen Derisaw, who's an ascending player, who's one of the focal points of the offense, was ruled out prior to the game. And so it was David Quessonbury who, let's be honest, David Quessonbury was not a guy expected to be talking to. But here we are.

That is, I mean, that's just the ability of this team to step up in the face of adversity. which has been a theme really since Kevin O'Connell got here, and it was on display fully yesterday. When did the Questabar even get there? Because he was with Buffalo in training camp. So it has to be fairly recently. Prior to the season. Yeah, prior to season.

I mean, you had guys like Nikiel Harry in 13 personnel packages as the receiver to block. And I talked to Nikiel on Monday. And Nikiel was like, yeah, man, like Josh said, learning the language is like AP French. And I'm going to tell you, when I was first here, it felt like I was in a foreign language class. And so he was blown. These guys were like legitimately blown away by what happened. I mean, there's no other way to say it. It's a fascinating choice by Quasi and Kevin to go out and get Josh Dobbs.

And the way that Diana communicated it and what she wrote this weekend, it makes perfect sense when you think about Quasi's background, approach and what this team needed. We want to go get a guy that's going to allow us to compete and send a message to the rest of the locker room that we're taking this seriously. Like this matters to us. but we are not going to leverage ourselves for the future. And that feels like the exact middle ground that they've hit with Josh, and that's what this is going to feel like moving forward. I don't know if they're going to make the playoffs in the NFC, but I think that he gives them a reasonable shot to stay competitive

while also allowing any sort of future to unfold with your resources, your draft picks, and the position in general. I don't want to overshadow what happened yesterday and just kind of how this team feels right now, but it's hard not to think about Dobbs, Kirk Cousins, and this franchise and not consider what all of this kind of means for the future. So as you're considering the Vikings quarterback position and just the direction of the franchise right now, what do you think is the most likely path over the next nine months for how they'll address the position and how some of the stuff unfolds?

Yeah, I really think it's going to come down to ultimately what Kirk Cousins is going to one in free agency in terms of monetarily and in terms of time frame. He's going to be 36 years old coming off a ruptured Achilles injury. The Vikings, meanwhile, are probably going to look at their situation. And if it works for them, I could definitely see a path where Kirk Cousins returns to play quarterback. I mean, what he had done in the two weeks prior to his injury was really probably the peak level of what he had accomplished at the position. I mean, on third down and long, he was as efficient as he's ever been, as efficient as anybody in the league. and so he had his surgery locally.

I think that matters. I think that that plays a role in the long-term calculus of it. But there's no question that this organization, Kwayceido Faminsat General Manager and Kevin O'Connell, a head coach, understand the value of a rookie quarterback contract. They also realize that mobility can make you right. I mean, we saw that on Sunday. Josh Dobbs had very few play calls that he probably knew seamlessly,

and he made Kevin O'Connell right. multiple times. So it will be, it'll be fascinating to see how it shakes out. And while you have me, I'm just going to say this too. I mean, what Brian Flores has done with this defense. And this is a Josh, we should talk about Josh Jobs, given what happened. And Kevin O'Connell, I mean, but the transformation that Brian Flores has charted with this defense and with this personnel in nine weeks and a year over year evolution is something

that I think should be talked about nationally because the flexibility to that. because the flexibility that this defense has deployed, the confidence with which they're playing is profound. It's evident, and it is really spurred this team on this four-gay win streak beyond everything else we've discussed. There's absolutely no doubt. And it's funny when you listen to teams talk about their plan

and what they want to be in the off-season and how much of that ends up coming to fruition. And they go out and get Flores as kind of a stabilizing force and kind of as a junk ball pitcher for a, a talent deficient unit, right? Let's frame it in those terms. And I think it's a very smart idea when you consider the state of the defense.

You look at the offense, we get a full year of T.J. Hawkinson. Jordan Addison is now a part of this. We think we're going to be better on the interior of the offensive line specifically because of development, and we know the tackles are good. The company line there in August was,

we might win fewer games, but we're going to be a better team. And that's exactly what they felt like before the Kirk Cousins injury happens. So all these things are coming together. in a way where it's like, this core that we have with Brian and with Kirk and some of these players, we can really win with this. And even if you're, this is, Quasi's job is to see all of this stuff with perspective and try to step outside of that. Kevin's job is to try to win football

games. And so that model that they had created allowed them to be really competitive. And so I think if you're Kevin O'Connell and your other members of that coaching staff, it's going to be really hard to let loose that death grip you have on the current construction of what this team is. So what they ultimately end up doing, I think, is going to be fascinating. And whether Kirk wants to stay. And I think the last thing I want to ask you is that this is a perspective that you can give that other people don't. I didn't realize even how central Kirk was as a figure in that locker room and kind of

the outpouring that has happened over the last week. So you consider that dynamic on top of all of the football stuff. Even if in a vacuum, it probably isn't the correct team building step to take. And again, given Kwayze's background, I think those questions are worth looking at and worth framing it that way compared to maybe other general managers. But you can start to build a case for why, even if it isn't the smartest thing, independent of all the other circumstances, it becomes likelier and likelyer that Kirk Cousins is back and that's what they end up rolling with.

Yeah. I mean, I started covering the team last year. And so I don't have the perspective of Kirk Cousins from 2018 until then, other than talking to people who have been around him and been around this locker room. But what he has meant to the people in there, I mean, it was just overwhelmingly evident after he ruptured his Achilles in Green Bay. I mean, Brian O'Neill, and I shared this at the time, Brian O'Neill, who was one of the team's obvious leaders, he's a veteran right tackle who is really solid.

I mean, I asked him that night just what? as a leader yourself, what is Kirk meant? And he couldn't even get out words because I think he more than anything was appreciative that over these last few months since the Netflix series, I think since more people have seen Kirk in a different light, they've started to realize I think what people in there always believed about him. And so you're exactly right in that it only adds another complexity to a future that is fascinating when you have a general manager who is so, keen on looking to the future and how to maximize the assets that they have. We knew this was not going to be a boring year.

I mean, these weeks will never be boring, it seems like, here. I thought last year was absurd, and this team, they make it interesting. I know that, Robert. We're going to have a conversation on our midweek show about some midseason awards and who deserve some acknowledgement for those sorts of season-long awards. and I think that Kevin O'Connell's name absolutely should come up. No question. Any discussion you're having about Coach of the Year this year and the work that he has done previously with Kirk Cousins and then obviously what happened with Josh Dobbs on Sunday and the decision to hire Brian Flores.

What was a Kevin O'Connell decision? So he has pushed all of the right buttons this year, even if this team isn't charging toward the playoffs the same way it was in 2022. Alec Lewis, thank you very much. My friend, always great to chat with you. We will catch up very soon. Thanks, Robert. Appreciate you guys having me. That's all we got, guys.

Sincerely appreciate Zach for seating the chair to me this week, allowing me to kind of step in here and pinch it. Had a really great time chatting with our guys. I always do. I mean, the perspective that they give is unlike anything you're going to get from people around the country and just the boots on the ground, knowledge and insight that they can provide into these teams. It's really what makes the athletic special.

It's why we wanted to do this show when we were considering how we were going to program the feed for the 2023 season. Zach has done a phenomenal job. It has been everything that I hoped it would be when we were considering it. So really appreciate him letting me kind of step in here for at least a week. Please be on the lookout for all the other stuff we have coming on the athletic football show feed this week. We'll be back with Chase Daniel. After taking the week off, I really appreciate your guys' understanding with, you know,

death in the family last week. So I had to take some time. So we will be back with Chase. And then obviously I will be back with Nate for our week 10 preview where, again, we will hang out some awards. So be on the lookout for that. Really appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon.

This was the Athletic Football Show.