The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Kellen Moore to the Chargers, Vic Fangio (maybe) to the Dolphins, updates on ongoing head coach searches, and more with Mike Sando

Episode Date: January 31, 2023

While the Eagles and Chiefs were busy advancing to the Super Bowl, teams across the rest of the league kept making news. The Chargers, for instance, made a huge splash in the coordinator pool. The Broncos, Cardinals, Colts and Texans, meanwhile, still have head coaching positions to fill. Robert Mays and Mike Sando discuss all that and more on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Mike on Twitter: @SandoNFLSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeToday's episode is brought to you by...Atlassian: For projects impossible alone, visit www.atlassian.comHoney: Get PayPal Honey for FREE at joinhoney.com/mays3:35 Chargers hire Kellen Moore as OC21:39 Dolphins (maybe) hire Vic Fangio as DC30:49 Carolina's search for a new DC38:32 The remaining head coach openings65:58 One big question for the 49ers72:10 One big question for the Bengals Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. The athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today. It's the athletic zone, Mike Sando. Mike, how you doing, man? I am doing well. We got one game left.

We got one game left. Got a couple weeks before we get to the Super Bowl. Are you going to Phoenix? I figured you would. When are you getting in? I will get into Phoenix on the Monday of that week. So looking forward to it. I love, of course, love going to the Super Bowl.

It'll be great to see you. I'm very excited about all of us getting together on there. It seems like it's been a long time. You get some dining spots set up? I know you're the expert. I do. I'm not inviting myself. I mean,

don't feel pressured. I know you have a very exclusive group, high-end people. That's not the case at all. For the most part, I'm trying to keep it like, there are some nights where I think it's just going to be me because there are places that don't take reservations

and I'm trying to make my group as sleek as possible, which a group of one, you can kind of sneak your way into places. I do have a plan, though. I have been doing a lot of research. That's kind of what I spend most of my time doing at this point, at this point, whenever I go somewhere. I need to cheat on your research with no obligation that we're not, we don't have to go anywhere together or any of that.

I would love to see. I would love to see a meal. I know. We have a meal. Like I would just be way too good to eat with you. I know, no, no. But I'm not going to try to like go to all your meals with you. That would, that would suck for you.

So I'm just saying, but if you shared your list on the down low, you know, I would then maybe have a couple that I could go to too. I am more than happy to share it with you. If you're a Phoenix local and you have any recommendations, I am also all ears. So my DMs are open, send them along. I'm very excited about some of the meals we have coming, though. I'm going to eat my body weight in tacos over that six-day stretch. I'll be to be in Mexico City this weekend.

So it's going to be like 10 straight days of just me eating nothing but tacos. I'm going to weigh 500 pounds by the time. This is over. But that's what the offseason is for. All right. We have a lot to get into today. It was kind of a wild couple days in coaching news. I didn't hear anything about the Vic Fangio stuff yesterday.

I was so knee-deep in conference championship games that I saw none of that until this morning. So we're going to talk about that. We're going to do a little bit of a check-in on the head coaching searches in the NFL that are currently going on. Honestly, as much for me as anybody else, just kind of sorting through where all of them stand at this stage after only one of those seats has been filled. We did a little post-mortem on the Niners and the Bengals last night on the show, but we're going to do one of the questions that you have about each team heading into this off season, looking forward to that. Let's start, though, with the news that not only have the Cowboys mutually parted ways with Kellanmore, but the Chargers already have hired Kellynmore to be their offensive coordinator.

Another piece of news that I had somehow missed this morning until our producer, Michael Beller, brought it to my attention. So it's been a whirlwind 24, 36 hours here for Mr. Kellan Moore. you know, going from a place where, at least when he got there, the personnel was really good. And we saw that, you know, it fell off a little bit when they lost Amari Cooper. But to now land, this is falling out of the fourth floor window and landing on a bed of flowers, right? Just soft. Let's let it on an elevator that's taking you up to the 10th. Yeah, exactly.

And so now you're going to work with Justin Herbert. I mean, this sounds great. This sounds like, you know, finding out you're inheriting a million dollars. You know, you're not, I don't know what that's like, but it must be pretty nice. So I think he's living a charmed life for somebody who has five years now of NFL coaching experiences for as a coordinator. That's pretty good to go from the situation he was in, which, by the way, I wouldn't mind getting out of, if I was going to get out of Dallas, this is a pretty good time, isn't it? I mean, the offense has fallen off some. We got some questions, right?

I wanted to ask you, were you surprised when you saw that they had. he was fired parting ways, however language you're using these days. Was that surprising to you? No, but I wasn't, I wouldn't even predict it. I feel like that has been a place where nothing was going to surprise me, including they were going to announce Sean Payton as a new head coach this week. Anything there could happen to me. There's been a lot of things moving around,

and then they let a bunch of the staff go already, some guys who had been there on both sides of the ball. So it felt like a little bit of the tremors before an earthquake. And I don't know that the earthquake's coming right now. But it, you know, when those fault line, when those when those plates move, sometimes, you know, there's a bigger one to move later. And so, you know, this is probably what we wondered could, we wondered if this would happen in the beginning when he got, when Mike McCarthy got there. Right. For two years, we wondered, what does Mike McCarthy do? You know, I ask the coach.

She goes, you know, all these other coaches running everything and he was standing there. And I think that might be part of the motivation on Mike McCarthy's side of this, is that let's reshape this in my own image to an extent, right? Because this was a marriage that was kind of arranged when he took that job. Yeah. Kellyn Moore was the offensive coordinator previously before Mike McCarthy arrived. He had developed a really good rapport with Dak Prescott. They had been teammates.

He had been the voice in Dak's ear for pretty much his entire career up to that point, as both a teammate and an assistant coach at multiple positions. So they kept him on. The offense played well. But as they were reshuffling some of that staff, like you mentioned, Joe Fulb and their offensive line coach gone, Doug Musmeyer, their quarterback's coach is gone. It kind of seemed like this was a chance for them to step back and say, why don't we reshape this thing?

We had some continuity for the sake of it at the beginning of this tenure. But why don't we just say, you know what, it's time for a change. Let's just go our separate ways. I'm kind of excited because I think Mike McCarthy has probably been a bit of a wasted resource in terms of hands-on with the quarterback. I think he is a good quarterback coach. I've been told that from people that I trust that have played for him, Matt Hasselbeck, in the very beginning when I was long ago a beat reporter. And I think that it must be, you know, it had to be a little bit hard. Obviously, he wasn't just hands-on coaching on the way he would have been if Kellanmore wasn't there, right?

I mean, there's just a, that's just the way that it is. That relationship existed. But I love the idea of Jack Prescott right now when, you know, it hasn't been just completely upward trajectory lately. There's been a few rough spots here there. I think in terms of fundamentals and whatever, whatever Mike McCarthy thinks are, is needed right now, I would think he's invigorated. I would think this is a great opportunity for him to see what he can do more directly,

with Dak Prescott, who is a talented quarterback. I think sometimes it's important to shake things up, even if things are pretty good. Just because you reach a certain point, it stagnates, again, it's the same voice that's been in his year forever. But change doesn't necessarily mean better. Over the last five years or four years

since Cullen Moore took over as the Cowboys' Offensive Coordinator, their fifth in EPA per play on offense, they're fifth in yards per play on offense, they're fifth in yards per drive, and they are second in the NFL in scoring. I mean, this has gone well. You can argue about the direction the arrow was pointed, but overall, this has gone pretty well.

So them deciding we want to move away from whatever remnants existed of the Jason Garrett-Garrett-Scott-Lenehan era of who we were offensively and move in a wholly new direction, part of me gets that as to why you'd want to shake that up, especially after the way that this season ended, after the way that the playoff game won against the Niners last season. But again, this could be a be careful what you wish for sort of situation. It really could be.

I think the difference between this and a lot of those types of situations is that Mike McCarthy is already there. So I think, you know, sometimes you see a move made like, hey, it's just time in Baltimore. You know, Greg Roman, he's got to go. We talked with this before. It's like, okay, well, there's not like they have Mike McCarthy there. So now they're going to bring in somebody else who may be new, who may not do a good job, need two years, right? I feel like McCarthy has a proven track record. Obviously, it didn't end great with Green Bay. But I am at this juncture, kind of curious to see what he can do.

It's fascinating. Are you kidding me? It's going to be fireworks every single week now that he's calling plays. I mean, it is going to be an unbelievable source of intrigue. He's been second guest for three years. You can make an argument that. the same thing happened in Green Bay that they're trying to avoid in Dallas, where it had been the same voice to Aaron Rogers for a very, very long time. That relationship, even if there's not an odd of animus there, professionally had frayed to the point that it was no longer effective. So now we get to see Mike McCarthy as a jumpstart potentially of an offense rather than Mike McCarthy as the play caller at the tail end of one of those tenures. So what kind of Mike,

but what kind of play caller is Mike McCarthy? Like there are several elements of this that I think are going to be particularly intriguing as it gets rolling. Yep, completely with you on that. I was just pulling up their offensive production when DAC Prescott starts. And it's been good. Shoot, it's been good. It has been on a downward run.

So if you go on a per game basis, 2019 would be the peak 7.9 offensive EPA per game. That's a touchdown better than average. When Dak Prescott starts goes to 5.3, 4.6, 3.3. So there is, for whatever reason, there's been other personnel changes, a little bit of a downward spiral. I'm not blaming that on Kellynmore at all. I don't know how much he had to do with it versus the personnel on the field, which is where I would look first. I don't think there's been any indication that Kellan Moore is bad.

you know, or what he's doing is bad. So yet I am just like you. Okay, let's see what Mike McCarthy can do. I would think that I would think it'll be interesting. And we'll see what they do this offseason. Are they able to add a piece or two that might help him and might make it look a little bit more like what he wants to do? I think the general consensus that Kellan Moore was not bad is evidenced by the fact that

he was out of a job for like 18 hours. It was very, very fast. And not only was he not out of a job for very long, he got what I think a lot of people, and when conventional wisdom would tell you, was the best offensive coordinator job available in the league right now going to work with Justin Herbert. And the note that I thought was interesting is that over the last three years,

those have been Brandon Staley's three years as a defensive play caller in the NFL, and three of those four years have been Kellan Moore's tenure as a play caller in the NFL. They have played against each other twice. in 2020, the Rams played against the Cowboys when Brandon Staley was their defensive coordinator. And in 2021, the Chargers played against the Cowboys. So Brandon Staley has had to call defensive plays against Kellan Moore in two of the last three seasons. And he immediately wanted Callan Moore to be his offensive coordinator. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, the thing that stands out there to me is that Brandon Staley has a very young staff. And Kellan Moore just fits right into that. Yeah. Coney was more younger than me. He's very young. you're saying you're young man i can't do that anymore dang it i am young compared to nfl play callers if you look at the average NFL play callers yeah now you're cold you're old

to be a player but you're young to be uh grizzled veteran coordinator although you have a little bit of i would say with your little growth going your beard you got going i think you would look like the elder statesman on brandon's daily staff right now if you go through those files i thought i was looking at my high school yearbook when i called that up they're young uh there but Kellan Moore has now experienced as a coordinator. It's not like it's his first time. I mean, he's been coordinating with some good talent and some good results for a few years.

So I think it's a great situation for more to fall into. Really good for him. And I don't see how it's not going to feel and be better, right? At least for the next couple of years on the Chargers with this change. I do feel like it was time for a change and kind of, you know, this will be good to watch and see what he gets to do. I am interested in the run game component, right? I mean, balancing out the offense.

I think there's personnel issues there as much as anything. They don't really have, obviously, the running game or running back personnel that was there in Dallas. So how do they evolve, right? What type of offense is not going to be Dallas? It's going to be different, but do they balance it out a little bit more, you know, to help the quarterback and help them close out games? I really wonder outside of any constraints, and I'm not even saying these are constraints that are unfairly put on him, what Kellynne Moore's offense would look like, because it really

did feel like a lot of the stuff that they did over the last couple years, really before this season, when I had complaints about, I just feel static and it feels really stayed, and there's not a lot of motions, a lot of stop routes. And those are remnants, again, of the Scott Linahan offense, but also, I'm assuming of what DAC was comfortable with. You know, kind of putting Dak back there in the shotgun and just letting him be the operator of that offense, we see a lot of guys who, when they get a lot of comfort within a system

and can play that way, Philip Rivers, Ben Rothlisberger, you know, at times Joe Burrow has been like that within the Bengals offense where he's like, fuck it, I don't want to go back under center and turn my back to the defense. Like, let me just play point guard here and operate this thing because I know it. And it did feel like for a lot of the 2020 and 2020 seasons, that's what Dallas was doing.

This year, by accident, when Cooper Rush is starting for the first chunk of the season, then they go back to DAC, it was more under center. It was more play action. It was more of a kind of traditional offense that was not necessarily as quarterback-centric as some of the stuff that they were doing with DAC over the last two years. So now with Justin Herbert, do we see the second? and half offense. Is it more under center play action? He has another supercomputer now the same way that DAC is in terms of how he processes. So how much translates. I just have 100,000 questions

about what it's ultimately going to look like. Yeah. You know what's interesting about that too is even though Mike McCarthy is an offensive-minded head coach, he really made a point of we're going to play to our defense this year. And remember when they switched away from Cooper Rush and they were kind of running a backup quarterback offense a little bit, they didn't just totally come out of their shell. right and McCarthy had the global view as someone who wasn't calling plays what was trying to set the agenda for the team to play a certain way, which is now interesting because playing that certain way may have diminished some of the stats, which leads us to this point now where, hey, maybe we need to change that offensive coordinator, whereas now Kellyn Moore goes to the Chargers where they don't have that luxury to play to their defense. They do have a defensive-minded head coach, but they don't have. have that luxury unless they suddenly dramatically improve on the defense of the ball, they may need to turn it loose, which I think is what people kind of are hoping they will do anyway. So I agree. I think it's an interesting juxtaposition given who the head coaches are.

I think DAC is a very good quarterback. I think DAC is right there as a top 10 solidified quarterback in the league. So them being successful over the last four years with Dak Prescott, especially when he was healthy, you'd expect that. When you have high level quarterback play for the entire tenure. But he's also going to have a high-level quarterback play with Justin Herbert. So just taking what Kellyn Moore accomplished with Dak Prescott and kind of grafting those ideas onto arguably a better quarterback and a really good situation, if the Chargers can come away from the next two to three seasons with the overall production that

the Cowboys had during Kellyn Moore's tenure as the play caller in Dallas, that's a win. I mean, if you're a borderline top five offense, and I think that their defense was really good in the second half of the year. Like, if I told you when this offseason started, the Chargers would get Kellynne Moore as their offensive coordinator and just drop him into the situation they currently have. I think a lot of Chargers fans and a lot of people who want more out of Justin Herbert and want more for Justin Herbert would be pleased with that outcome. Oh, absolutely. I think a lot of people were just, hey, they just wanted to see a change. They wanted to see Joe Lombardi out. and then before we knew

Kellyn Moore would be available, you could easily have heard somebody say, can we get somebody like Kellan Moore? So I'm with you. We'll see how much of that translates to, you know, on the field and is actually real. But I think that was a case where I think both of these places,

despite having pretty successful offenses, chargers and cowboys, you know, felt like they were ready for something new and different. And I'm okay with it. The last thing I wanted to mention is something I thought was interesting, is that arguably the best season that the Cowboys had with Kellan Moore as their offensive coordinator was in 2019.

When they were second in offensive DVOA, they were really, really good offense. And that happened to be his first year as the offensive coordinator. And so I wonder if does that happen again? Where before maybe Dak kind of gets his fingerprints on what they're doing and has more of a say, kind of how things are shaped and maybe likes the picture to be a little bit more static. If it's more driven by the play caller and some of that creativity than the input of the quarterback has, are we going to see a similar kind of jump in year one of what the Chargers are doing? Maybe that's me reading a little bit too much into it, but I did

think it was interesting that the best version of the Cowboys offense that we saw was his first year, not his third or fourth year. Yeah, it could be. Like we mentioned, personnel could be part of that, but yeah, yeah, we'll find out. It's going to be, I think it's just interesting changes. Let's get to the Vic Fangio kind of curfuffle news here. Got some conflicting reports. So Tom Palisero from the NFL network comes out on Sunday and says that the golfense have hired Vic Fangio as their defensive coordinator and made him the highest paid coordinator, I think, of any kind in the NFL, which good for Vic Fangio. He deserves it. He's probably the best defensive coordinator in the NFL. It was a highly sought after candidate coach this offseason by

plenty of different places. then today multiple reports one by Mike Kliss who works at a TV station in Denver was a long time Broncos writer for the Denver Post and one by Mike Silver who cover from the Bay Area I assume covered McFanjio a lot in San Francisco both of them had reported that in conversations with Fik Fangio he has said that he has not decided and has not taken that job yet so now what's interesting there is that if D'Amico Ryan's gets hired away to be the Texas head coach, the 49ers are going to need a defensive coordinator. So does that maybe potentially open up a job for Vic Fangio if he has not put pen to paper with the dolphins so far? So a little bit of intrigue here with whatever the near future for Vic Fangio may hold. Yeah. I mean, you know, Tom Pellasero is pretty darn good.

So his initial report, you know, I'm usually taking that to the bank. And we'll see the other guys, I'm not saying anything about those guys because they may, it may not be done, right? that some of these things, I was taught very early on in my, you know, beat reporting life, hey, right expected to. Yeah. Expected to be because this stuff changes. Things do change.

Things fall apart. Other opportunities come about. There could be an agreement. Pelliserra's report could be accurate. Maybe the language was a little strong. And who knows, maybe there's other teams rallying saying, wait a minute, he hasn't told that to us. We're still in the mix. So it may not be done yet.

But I think the idea of him going to the dolphins is, you know, is at least interesting. Do we want to talk about it as if he is? Let's do it. Absolutely. Yeah. Let's talk about it as if he is because, I mean, I think that like you said, you kind of take those reports to the bank and I think it's almost worth just going down that road a little bit here. I think it's fun to anyway. What if it comes a part? Still, let's talk about it, you know? So my initial response to this kind of is connected to the Kellynne Moore thing in Dallas, right? So Mike McDaniel gets to Miami. We see this all the time. And their defense had been good under Brian Flores. And that's,

That was the side of the ball that had really been figured out as they'd cycled between all of these options on offense. And they say, all right, well, why don't we keep Josh Boyer then as a defense coordinator? Our defense has played well. And then after one year, they say, eh, you know, I think I kind of want to get my guy in here. And this, again, is just another example of that, the likes of which we see pop up over and over and over again, seemingly every single year. Yeah. Yeah. No doubt about it. When you get your first, when you start out as the head coach, you sometimes you inherit people. you don't always get to hire exactly who you want.

They're not all available. And so sometimes it's natural a year or two later that it works out the way the coach gets his guy, so to speak. I think Vic Fangio would be such a tremendous addition for Mike McDaniel. When I look at that, we're talking about the Chargers having a younger staff, which can be fine too. But when I look at Mike McDaniel, who really, you know, his coaching background is interesting. he wasn't a primary play caller for years. Now, he acquitted himself, I think, very well. Yes.

Overall in his first year. But he has, by his side on offense, Darrell Bevel, who's been a 15-year play caller across four teams in the NFL. Vic Fangio has 22 years calling plays for five teams and a bunch of other years. He was on the Jim Mora elder staff, the elder Jim Mora staff with the freaking saints. When the NFC West had the Saints and the Falcons in the kids, okay? 49ers, Saints, Falcons, Rams. Vic was an adult, a fully formed adult scheming game plans then in the 80s when

Mike Sando was in high school. When I was born, he was the Saints. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're adding that. Now, my initial thoughts were that's a coup for Mike McDaniel. You get somebody, because remember this season was, if you're going to criticize McDaniel or the dolphins, some of the game management stuff were right at the end of the year, the end of the season. I mean, obviously they could have probably used

some more reps or some more experience. So you're adding a head coach of the defense and Fangio, instant credibility. A great teacher. That's one of the things people talk about even as much as his scheme is that he is a great teacher of defense. Obviously, he loves this stuff. He could have retired many times over. He is a type of guy who goes to the grocery store and his gray sweatshirt with a whistle around his neck because he's just a coach. He's been around the Eagles seemingly all season because he didn't. What's he going to do? What's he going to do? These guys have amazing pensions. He's made millions. He ain't going to go do nothing as long as he can do this. I think he does have a place in Florida.

Who knows, maybe he has a place everywhere. But I think he has a, you know, when I think of someone like them, you could be at a point in your career where maybe the geography matters for different reasons. I'm sure he's got family around the country. But, but, you know, hey, Florida, that's pretty good. So I like it for, for everybody there, even though I do think, you know, Vic Fangio probably could find, you know, easier divisions to win or those types of things. Maybe that doesn't matter to him as much. And he understands that right when you think you're coming into a situation, it totally changes the next year anyway. I like it. And I just want to see what he does with the players on this roster. You know, they have some guys in the front seven that I really like. Obviously,

Christian Wilkins had an incredible years. X-Sealer is a good player. You know, they have a rotation, of potential pass rushers. I think he's done a really good job of fitting his general defensive ideas to his personnel. His final year in Denver, they were blitzing a lot more. They were playing a lot more man coverage. So he's flexible in some of the things that he can do. But overall, like the bones of his system, I think there's a reason that a lot of coaches around the league have adopted those ideas because they fit well with modern football.

And they have pieces on the back end. You know, Javon is a good player. Xavier Howard's getting a little bit older and was a little bit banged up this year. But I still feel like if you're trying to just kind of stabilize that side of the ball because you feel good about what you're going to be able to do on offense, there are a few better places you can turn to do that than to Vic Fangio. Yep. Yep.

I like everything about him. Like I said, he's been a head coach. He's been on the headsets. He's made decisions. He understands how everything works at really probably almost all levels of an organization, just because of what he's done. So it could just be a great resource for Mike McDaniel. I love it when the, when guys like that, you know, Mike McDaniel strikes me as a type of guy just through his demeanor.

He's always learning. Yeah. He's not afraid to learn. He's not afraid to have Vic Fangio and Darrell Bevel and guys who've been around a lot longer than him. He seems like the type of guy who wants that and he's going to get better from that. So, and obviously Mike McDaniel's extremely sharp and smart himself. So pretty good. My Vic Fangio coaching history stories last summer when I was in Detroit, I was talking to Aaron Glenn, who is a head coach candidate in this cycle, was interviewed with the Cardinals.

He's the Lions defensive coordinator now. Just talking about kind of his ideas and where he picks up stuff up. I'm always interested in kind of how coaches build their value system, right? Like, why do you believe what you believe when it comes to defensive football? Like how has the totality of your experience kind of led to who you are as a coach? and he was telling me he's like oh yeah i played for you know he was like ah well at this and this and this from vic fangio and i was like oh when did you coach with vig fangio he goes no i played for vig fangio in houston in 2002 and i was like holy shit

he just it's impossible to like trace his entire history because he was the texans defensive coordinator when the texans first became a franchise from like 2002 through 2005 yeah that is so awesome you know how he became available this is how things used to be a little bit is um so he was on jim mora staff coaching peyton manning and the colts and the ran the you know a scheme they wanted to change the scheme for whatever reason the front office did and so they told jim mora to he's going to change coordinators and jim morris said no that's now guys it seems like oh yeah they just kicked guys out now jim mora lost his job i believe to not fire big tangio i always admire that in people you know

on the principle of the matter. No, that's my guy. I certainly respect that, and it brings me to the next topic I wanted to hit here, is the defensive coordinator search in Carolina, which we've talked about a couple times here over the last few weeks. I just can't remember something like this with a team that had a head coach opening, where they were openly interviewing defensive coordinator candidates before filling the head coach role. So Vic Fangio was one of those candidates.

He's obviously out of the running now if he's going to end up in Miami or wherever he's going to be. It seems like even if he doesn't sign in Miami, the Panthers, you know, by Joe Persons reporting and other people who cover the team have moved on from Vic as a candidate. But still, they're looking at candidates that they interviewed before they hired Frank Reich. Josina Anderson reported today that the ownership group and the people in the front office seem to like Marquan Manuel, who was one of the candidates that they hired, Chris Rekh. Shard was another potential candidate for that job. And Frank Reich has brought up Gus Bradley's name because he may be available, depending on what happens over there in Indianapolis. So this idea that the head coach that you just hired is interested in one candidate,

but the front office and ownership may be interested in a candidate that they previously interviewed, it just is a little bit different. I just can't remember anything like this recently. Yeah, a couple different ways it could go. Number one, all of those people have been together in Seattle with this. GM of the Panthers fitterer. And then Bradley has been with Frank Reich, obviously, already in Indies. So I think everyone's friends in this matter.

This is interesting to me because, you know, instead of it being some, you know, something where Frank Reich's out of the loop, everyone could just be on the same page, too. And they could have had a good idea they were going to hire Frank Reich. It wasn't like Frank Reich. I guess he interviewed in Arizona, right? But think how successful Frank Reich has been. It wasn't like he was going down to the wire and finalists on all these other jobs, as I remember. He seemed to be, he's from Carolina, right?

He played for the Panthers. He's got roots there. If you go to the owner there, David Tepper, I think he is patterning that organization after the Eagles. When he first got there, he signed one of the Eagles analytics guys. that was important to him, Taylor Rayjack. Okay. And then even though Steve Wilkes had done a great job, what does Jeff Lurie of the Eagles hire?

He hires offensive coaches, right? So who of these candidates was under Jeff Lurie in the Eagles, right, as a coordinator, Frank Reich? So all of those things fit together, and you can kind of see why Frank Reich may have been a favorite to be the coach there all along. And then all of these guys that are Frank Reich friendly, I see all those people is probably somewhat frank.

I mean, obviously Gus Bradley's friendly to everybody. You know, I mean, Gus Bradley's about as agreeable, nice of a guy as you're going to find anywhere. And obviously has a great relationship with Frank. You can't imagine those guys not being good. So how it all shakes out, does Bradley get out? Is Richard in this role? Is Mark Juan Manuel?

Those are all people to me that play nice together. So we'll see how it comes out, but I would be surprised if this was a case where, you know, anything's being forced on Frank Reich. Maybe we'll find it otherwise, but just not so sure about that. That makes total sense. I'm interested in them seeking out coaches from that background and that coaching tree. And Markaum Manuel has been with the Jets over the last couple years. And obviously, you know, they've strayed from some of those true blue Seattle three ideas,

the amount of quarters the Jets play and, you know, looking at what their front. is and kind of how it mirrors the way that San Francisco has played. So you look at the depth chart on the Jets right now, or the Panthers right now, and you have some pieces in the front seven, obviously, if they want to keep playing an even front with Brian Burns and Derek Brown. I mean, they do have some interesting pieces to run that defense. And so we'll see what happens. But I just thought that the order of operations there was a little curious and worth discussing because it was a little bit different than a lot of the stuff that we normally see. And we've been, you know, I think we were talking about this last week.

Does this mean they're going to get Sean Payton, remember? So they're just lining up defensive coordinators. Yeah, maybe it was for Frank Reich. Not sure, but some of those dots you can connect without too much work. What you said about the Eagles, it sounds like Brian Johnson, who is the Eagles quarterback's coach, is a very strong candidate to be the offensive coordinator on Frank Reich staff, even if Frank is going to call plays. So they're trying to snatch a little bit of that match what the Eagles have going.

That makes a lot of sense. Philly South, yep. All right. So let's talk about the head coaching openings that are still out there right now. And kind of, you know, one element, one question, one observation we have about each one. Let's start with the Texans. I don't think there's a lot to talk about here. It seems like D'emico Ryans is going to be the Texans head coach.

Yeah. To me, it's all what you think of having to or getting to work and partner with Nick Casario, who is, you know, more hands-on in the football operation, even on the field operation than probably any other or most general managers other than Bill Belichick or guys who do both jobs. But, you know, he's going to probably want or have more say in the hiring of the staff, potentially, or could have the headset on like we talked about on Game Day. That may or may not fit with everybody, but if that could be worked out, I thought that's a great job if you feel comfortable with him for everything that's there.

So D'Amico Ryan's would totally make sense. You've got, I think, his wife's from there. He's obviously basically from there, played there. it would be a really, I think a good natural fit that would make a lot of sense. I'd be excited to see what he could do as a head coach and we'll see what the offensive side of the ball looks like, who his coordinator is going to be, who the quarterback is going to be. But they're set up obviously to remake that side of it with where they're picking and all

the resources that they have. It's a fun story. A guy who established his career there was a really good player there early in just their existence as a franchise and somebody who has been absolutely fantastic. as a defensive coordinator over the last two years and goes down and hopefully injects a little bit of energy into what they're trying to build down there. What's interesting to me is, you know, Nick Casero comes from that Belichick world, and you think about the type of defense they play.

You'd probably say, D'Amico Ryan's in San Francisco with really great personnel has run a pretty straightforward scheme, right? you would not necessarily say it's out of the Belichick world. So that part is a little bit interesting to me. What do you think about that? I think, I mean, obviously what they've done with Lovie Smith, like Lovie Smith runs the most straightforward defensive scheme you possibly could. Absolutely, yeah.

So I think that kind of having the same general structure in terms of fronts and all of that, but being a little bit more varied on the back end, I mean, some of the stuff that the Niners do, even if it generally in theory is, again, you know, quarters not blitzing a ton, a lot of zone heavy stuff. A lot of the pressure packages that Temeco riots put together, a lot of the third down stuff. I mean,

I thought he did a really, really good job of being hard to predict and tweaking stuff and all of that. So even if it is on its face kind of a simple approach defensively, I still think that there's a lot of stuff that he can do. And they've got, I mean, the young defensive talent that they have that they drafted last year, I mean,

You've got those two defensive backs. They've got a couple underrated pass rushers that I feel like, you know, obviously that's one thing that carries over from what they had last season. So I'd be excited to see it. I'd be excited to see what he would do there. And it does seem like we're going to get that opportunity. The fit seems right. Yeah.

The fit seems good. All right. The Indianapolis Colts who have interviewed 17,000 people for their head coaching job, even their second round of interviews so far, the breadth of people that they're talking to, I think is my number one takeaway from this. I wanted to ask you how your interview went with them, Robert. I mean, how to, you know, did you get a good feel for the organization? I mean, look at this.

The guys that have gotten second interviews with them, Wink Martindale, Brian Cowahan, Shane Steichen, Rahim Morris, Adjero, Evaro, Rick Passaccia. Essentially all across the board, you've got multiple defensive head coaches, head coach candidates, multiple young offensive coaching candidates. And then Rick Passachi, who is a special teams coordinator. And I'm not counting Jeff Saturday at this, by the way. Jeff Saturday technically has interviewed twice. So what if they're going to hire Jeff Saturday, but this is all just like Intel reports? Because you get everyone's blueprint, right?

Hey, come on in. Let's see what your plan is. What would you do? And you talk to 20 people and pretty soon you've got five future head coaches and they all show you their notebook, showed you their notes. I mean, that's what's interesting to me. there's a real opportunity as the interviewing team to learn a lot about a ton of people. So I'm not saying for sure they're going to hire Jeff Saturday, but wouldn't that be something?

If after all of this, they just talked to all these people and then kind of stayed the status quo. I think it's more likely that their plan is, or Chris Bowdoch's plan is, I'm going to hire as many people or I'm going to interview as many people as possible. so Jim Ursay gets confused and forgets that Jeff Saturday was one of the candidates. Yeah, that's right. Tires them out, wears them out, you know. It sounds like these are really long interviews and thorough and all of that. So yeah, there's some interesting names on there. Like, you know, I think Shane Steichen's interesting to me, you know, just his experiences and just the vibe you sort of get from him. And obviously being in Philadelphia, I think that's an interesting one. there's some good ones on this list.

The two guys I come back to from this list. Shane Steckin being the first one and what he has done in Philadelphia. Like you said, just the general vibe. And I also think that it would kind of be a way for them to make good on losing Nick Siriani in this weird way. The fact that Nick Siriani is thriving in Philadelphia, you can kind of get some of that mojo back that you let walk out of the building to take that job after and hiring your own head coach a year later. And Rahim Morris is just somebody. that I would just find him so interesting as a head coaching candidate right now with his background. I mean, he has coached offense and defense over the last five years,

which how many guys, period, in the NFL can say they have done that at a high level when he was with the Falcons. He did both of those things. Even defensively, I think a lot of these guys who I appreciate the work that they do on offense, they've had experience in a lot of different sorts of systems. Shane Steichen being one of those guys. a Norv Turner guy, but what the Eagles offense looks like is drastically different than some of those down the field, Air Corrielle, North Turner Chargers teams. Rahim Morris has been an assistant in pretty much every defensive scheme you can imagine.

Like, he comes up in the cover two Tony Dungee era, and then eventually he goes to work with Jim Haslott and Washington, where it's some of those blitz-heavy Pittsburgh ideas. then he goes to Atlanta where he works for Dan Quinn. At the beginning, it's a lot of Seattle 3 stuff, but near the end they start blitzing more, playing a decent amount of man. And then after that job, he goes to Los Angeles, where instead of implementing his own system, he learns the system that the Rams were running because in his mind it was easier for him to just learn something new than for everyone else to learn something new.

and then wins a Super Bowl in his first year as the coordinator there. His background is fascinating to me. And that's beyond the personality stuff. He's incredibly engaging, you know, still a guy has a ton of energy. Like, I really am interested in him as a candidate. You mentioned the background. One of the things that's interesting to me is so he was with Mike Shanahan in Washington, right? Yes.

He was with Dan Quinn in Atlanta. and he's been with Sean McVeigh in Los Angeles. Those are some interesting people in the football world head coaches, right? I mean, obviously Mike Shanahan and Sean McVe goes without saying, but I think Dan Quinn, Super Bowl coach, who has, you know, improved, had the right mindset, has changed what he's done, is better now. You're not just getting the same old thing.

I think he has kind of a growth mindset that you see on the field and just kind of sense it from talking to. him. So those are some pretty good people to have been with. He was so young. You know, Rahim Morris was so young. I'm surprised in looking at this that he was even 33 in 2009 when he became head coach, because nowadays, shoot guys get the jobs in their mid-30s sometimes. But I feel like I like second chance coaches for the most part. I like there to be time in between the first and second, especially if you got it young. He's had more than enough time in between. He is very important. He is very impressive when you talk to him.

So I agree. That would be one, that would be one like he's been in the mix. It seems like the last couple years, you know. What does it take to get one of them? Yeah, I just think that. You have to be hot that year, you know, does your team have to go to the Super Bowl? Which seems so silly to me. I agree.

Them going to the Super Bowl and winning it and him not being able to do some of those interviews and being as available in the cycle as coaches who lost earlier is Rahim more as somehow a worse candidate now than he was last year, even though the Rams defense was still pretty solid with a couple of their stars either being hurt or having down years and overall the team kind of crumbling this season? I don't think so. I just think that very few guys have his breadth of experience, his diversity of experience and the types of things he's coached in the places he's coached in the systems he's coached in, and the personality that he brings. to the job.

Yeah. Yep. I'm with you. I think that's a good one too. So that would be probably, that would have probably been one of the other names I would have flagged. There's some veteran, you know,

Wink Martindale's in that mix. I think he's in, it would be interesting. Yeah. It's a really, really, I mean, the group itself is just a wild collection of names.

I cannot wait to see who they ultimately land on. All right. We didn't even mention Eric Biener. Is that the only place that Bienemies interviewed? Believe it is, yes. And then so he's being. or to be in the mix for a couple offensive coordinator jobs, which I assume is just a way for him to hopefully call plays and maybe jumpstart his candidacy as a head coach again by saying,

you know, look what I've done as a play caller. Yeah. Yep. All right. The Denver Broncos, what do you make of this? I think it's going to be determined by who they hire ultimately. You know, if they come away, if they come away with Jim Harbaugh or whatever, you know, then that's who they were going for early.

And you could say they did it. And then I think the things that happened in between become footnotes. So that's why, like I did a note on this in my column today, I didn't go too heavy handed on it because we don't know how they're going to cross the finish line. It could change everything you think about the process. As for that process, I have been confused. concerned. What has been the most concerning aspect to you?

Well, I think when you go into it, you know, it's a new owner who hasn't done this before. And it's a tricky situation with the Russell Wilson situation in his contract. You're less attractive than you realize that you are, probably. Just what we were saying at the beginning. Yeah. You know, I just feel like that's kind of my feel on the job the entire time. Yeah. I remember when I ranked him a week ago or whatever, I think I had.

had, you know, Houston and Carolina at the top, Indy, and then Denver and Arizona, put them down in that bottom area. And so they have sort of been operating a little bit as if it's the Pat Bowlin Denver team. And look, Denver's a great place to live. Hey, look what we got. And so it seemed like they were playing into the idea of getting someone big, going for Sean McVeigh. You know, I thought Dan Quinn, you know, obviously had ties to George Payton. my takeaway is that they're less attractive than they think they are, that Russell Wilson specifically is a part of what's less attractive about them.

And then the wild card in all of this is how do people feel about, like the idea of last year that it was all completely Nathaniel Hackett's fault, how much, how do candidates really view that spot what went down there, what the real issues are, could be different. Damico Ryan's, I think Woody Page just said today that he pulled out of it. He said he's not interested. And there have been a couple of guys who have said they're not interested.

Dan Quinn went back to Dallas. So just reading the tea leaves a little bit, it seems like the general feel might not be that the only thing going on there. The only thing that was wrong with that situation was the head coach. That's my two sets. I hadn't even seen the Demico. pulling out. So I'm looking through here for some notes that I have because that whole timeline of the D'Amico Ryan's and Jim Harbaugh thing, here was kind of the worst case scenario to me of how this could have played out and it kind of looks like it might have played out this way.

They interviewed D'Amico Ryan's, I believe, on Thursday, not this past Thursday, the Thursday before, so we're 10 days out or so. Goes well, hey, great. And so they've got D'Amico kind of in the mix. And then the owner says, you know what? You'll just take a run at Jim Harbaugh again before we do anything here. But if you're going to do that, you probably don't tell everybody, right? I mean, that would be a sensitive thing. You're not going to bring Harbaugh.

And maybe the owner just goes to Ann Arbor. You know, I'm going to do this kind of a little bit on the down low. but by Wednesday of this past week that word was getting around that they had talked to Harbaugh and so some of those people like the D'Amico Rines of the world could have been finding that out

and been like, okay, because Domingo Rines has options. Maybe he's between Houston and Denver. Or he can just stay. Or he can just stay. And he's like, you know, I don't really love how that came down. Now that, we don't know that for a fact.

I've had some people that are kind of, you know, somewhat involved in this or paying attention or have some ties. That's been the theory of how it went down. And so then Domeko Ryan finds out about this. It's all became public in the last few days, but it was known around the league a little bit earlier than that. And he's like, yeah, I'm out. So then I believe there's now reporters out of Denver are like, hey, now Harbaugh was the guy the whole time. I think I saw that in one of the tweets from one of the Denver reporters.

What about Sean Peyton? What does this say about Sean Peyton? That's the other layer of this. Well, yeah, does he want to be there? I don't know. Or how high, you know, look, just because, I mean, some of these, some of these candidates could be just, all right, you got the deepest pockets. So how, how are you willing to go, right? That would be my school of picking a destination as an NFL head coach.

Who's going to give me $20 million? And it does seem like the Broncos are the most likely candidate. Exactly. I'm on the Cliff Kingsbury track, man. Like, you give me a four-year deal. I don't care what happens in five years two. Jim Harbaugh and Sean Payton have pocketed. These guys,

Oh, my, come on. These guys don't need the money. It's not about needing the money. It's not about the money. It's about sending a message. I know. And they all want it. Shoot,

I remember I've seen that 100 times covering coaches and this deal was worth that, the highest paid. We just heard Vic Fangio's reported the biggest deal ever for a coordinator, right? I mean, who needs that? Vic Fangio, you know. So I think the Denver thing just doesn't look great from what we've seen. And we'll see. Let's say they don't get Jim Harbaugh.

And let's say that Rahim Morris, who also, I think I believe it's gotten a second interview with them or is in the mix with them, takes the Colts job. They're kind of back to square one, right? Because the only other guys they've talked to would be a Giro Everro, which that just seems like such a, I mean, he did a fantastic job. But beyond the fact that you'd be hiring a coach who was on your staff during a disaster season, you'd be hiring the best friend of the guy that was the head coach on the. disaster staffing the season that you just had. Yeah, that you weren't exactly having his back all the way. Yes, that you have destroyed on the way out the door. Kind of let him, you know, let that whole shoot.

It was, it was pretty early in the season. They're bringing in Jerry Rosberg saying, yeah, our guy can't do it. So there's five different layers to that dynamic. That's awkward. The whole Adjero thing would be awkward to me. And then the other guys they've talked to, I believe, are Jim Caldwell and David Shaw, which is just a very different. direction to take this thing. So here's the deal. You can still hire a good coach. The biggest

names aren't always the best guys. No, absolutely not. When Green Bay opened up and they hired Matt LeFleur, I really wanted them to hire Jim Caldwell. I thought he was the perfect type of guy who's no nonsense, but still the perfect amount of no nonsensenessness. You know what I mean for Aaron Rogers. And you know what? He might have been a better hire. They had a great record. They've had a great record with the floor about, I'm not saying Jim, I think Jim Caldwell could have done the same thing. Okay. I think Jim Caldwell could have done great with Aaron Rogers too. So, you know, Jim Caldwell is whatever three years older now.

What is it, 66, 67, something like that. He's 68 and he's been out of the league for, I think, five of the past six years. So that's not ideal, right? And the age thing is, is, can be a number. Pete Carroll's 71 and he's got all the energy he needs. So I'm not as overly worried about. To me, it's more so that he just hasn't really coached. Hasn't been doing the game plans, all of that.

You have a guy who hasn't coached in five of the last six NFL seasons. And you have a guy in David Shaw who has what, like a year or two of NFL experience as an assistant, but for the most part has been at college head coach. So they're left with just two very non-traditional candidates. Absolutely. So Caldwell right now, like Caldwell three years ago, I want him hired as my head coach. Caldwell now, I want to know as my senior assistant head coach or whatever that top guy. That makes a lot of sense. You know what I mean?

And he's seen it all. And he's a great counsel. And shoot, I mean, he called plays if you want, whatever. But that may be the consideration there. And you're right.

So the idea of that if they don't get Jim Harbaugh, and who knows, maybe they will. He hasn't signed his deal yet, is he? I don't believe so. I mean, so he could just be trying to get more money.

And they could just get to a, point where they have to go to his number. It gets done. They have a big press conference and they say, relax everybody. This is who we had all along. And, you know, what I wrote two weeks ago, my column on Monday was here's what the Broncos should know about Jim Harbaugh. So it would go right back to what we were thinking two weeks ago.

And then they could claim, guys, relax. This is what was going to happen. But if it doesn't know that way. The reason that they're hiring 20 head coaches is that they can all wait, the reason they're interviewing 20 head coaches is no matter what happens, they can claim that it was their first choice was the guy that they ultimately hired. Remember, they were the team we were wondering was going to do if they were going to have Jim Harbaugh too, given his ties to that. But that hasn't been part of the mix. So I think it's fine. It never is interesting to me. Never is interesting,

a little messy, but you know, maybe it comes out fine for them in the end. I just have a hard time believing that it's going exactly the plan, but, you know, they can still come out good. It's more about optics than it is about the result. Because we've seen this a bunch of different times. I mean, Frank Reich was, I think, did a good job in Indianapolis. He was certainly not their first choice. They had to go to him after the entire cycle had been completed. Nick Siriani was not the hot head coaching candidate out of everyone's mouths.

I believe he was interviewed pretty late in the process for the Eagles before they ultimately hired him. So that that doesn't have any bearing on how good some of these guys are at the job. I just think that the outward projection of what this has looked like has been. a little bit concerning. It has been, yep. They could still get a great coach, but I agree. That one has looked a little strange.

All right. Last one here, the Arizona Cardinals. My biggest thought here is, before they decided and put in an interview request for Brian Calhant today, the guys left on their list,

presumably if Sean Peyton is out, were all defensive-minded head coaches. Evereaux, Brian Flores, Aaron Glenn, Vance Joseph, Dan Quinn is now out, And then they also requested to talk to Luana Rumo today, the only team that did that. So D'Amico too.

And D'Amico. And I just am acting like Domingo is out. So it really did seem like they were interested in kind of going in a very different direction from what Cliff Kingsbury gave them. Yeah. Remember the rumor initially was that they'll just go with Vance Joseph. Yeah. Remember that? So that doesn't feel like such a stretch.

that they could do that. But I think we really don't know. We really, really don't know there. You have a general manager who's new, who has some ties to a couple of places in Tennessee and, of course, New England, but we're not exactly sure what he wants to do, how influential he is in it, what he's been told the parameters are by Michael Bidwell,

the owner of the team. So, yeah, it just feels like we haven't had a lot of, we haven't had a lot to take us in one direction definitively there, wouldn't you say? It's felt like we heard a couple things early, might be Vince Joseph, and nothing's really overpowered that. And so also, Bo is reminding us, they put in a request to interview Mike Kafka today as well. So that's one more offensive coach. But yeah, I would love to see a Giro Ebro get one of these jobs after what he did with the Broncos last year and just a couple conversations with him over the years. and just the way he sees defensive football.

I think that he's a really intriguing candidate. And I'm excited to see that at least one team has decided they want to talk to, arguably the best defensive game plan and coach in the league at Luana Rimo about potentially being a head coach in the NFL. Yeah, that's great for him to get into this thing a little bit. Yeah, Agero is very interesting to me because there were a good number of people around the league who were concerned about Denver's defense falling off when Vic Fangio left. And it wasn't a slap to a giro, but it was kind of.

It kind of was. It wasn't intended that way. It was like, hey, Vic Fangio's leaving. They have somebody there who is, you know, a lot less proven, obviously, in that. That defense probably going to fall out. And we talked about that with Denver. Hey, Mike Munchak leaving all of these. There were some key people leaving that place.

And the defense more than held up its own, held up its side of the bargain. And so I do think. that he's a great one to have in the cycle this time, whether he gets one or not this year. It feels like he's on that track, but he's at a, he's at a kind of a tenuous point here because he only had the one year in Denver. He didn't sign a one year deal when he came to Denver. He's under contract to the Broncos. The Broncos could technically kind of sit on him for some of these other defensive

coordinator jobs if he doesn't want to be in Denver. Now, the way out of that is to get a lot of that. a head coaching job, but is that going to happen? You know, it may be a year before he gets one, right? So it sounds like, I guess we must have missed this. It sounds like based on reports for me in Rapport and Tom Palsero that Morris, David Shaw, Jim Colwell, and Adjero Evereaux were all told this week that they, the team was going in a different direction.

That Denver was. Yes. So that means that I guess it's Jim Harbaugh or the search open. back up again. So give me those four names again. Morris, David Shaw, Jim Caldwell, Adjero, Evera. So that would leave D'Amico Ryans, who we think is probably going to go to Houston because he is he taking himself out, right?

And he has also taken, I think, taken himself out. He's taking himself out. This is outstanding. This is like a, I mean, it's not a 30 for 30, you know, on the Broncos search yet, but it is that's outstanding. That's amazing. You had Domeko Ryan's pull out,

four guys were told they were out. The owner of the team was on a plane, I don't think with any search committee, just going to talk to Jim Harbaugh. And then again, it brings me back to what is going on with Sean Payton? Yeah. You know, so as last week was winding down,

I was talking to just other coaches and things around the league and hey, what do you think? And kind of spitballing things. I think there was an ex, people just sort of felt like there may be better opportunities for him a year from now. Whether that's Dallas where everyone's wondered, right, if he would end up there with Jerry Jones, and he could basically say, hey, I don't even have a GM.

I report directly to the owner and be the head coach of the Dallas Cowboys for a gazillion dollars and live happily ever after. That was one. But as we went through some of these other places where you might go, they were not, they were not great situation in Denver when you have to come in with, the quarterback on that type of a contract, right? And expectations and all of that. So, yeah, yeah, maybe there's just not somebody willing.

Maybe he just needed to be totally blown away with everything. And no one's done that from a money, from a power, from a situation standpoint. Man. All right. Well, we solved it. We got it all figured out there. A lot to keep an eye on here over the next few days as this stuff sorts of stuff out. Before we get out of here, one question, one takeaway, one thing that you're keeping an eye on for the teams that lost yesterday.

Let's start with the Niners and what they're looking at heading into the offseason. Well, before we knew that Brock Purdy has the torn UCL and has a six-month rehab that puts them on schedule to be back in June, that was breaking news right before we started recording. I was already looking at that they, I think they have to do something at that position that even though Brock Purdy, looked good. You have this team with Debo Samuel, George Kittle, Christian McCaffrey, Fred Warner, Nick Bosa, all in their primes. Trent Williams, maybe with another year or two, he's superhuman, maybe three, but at his age, right, you've got this window. And you're excited about Brock Purdy. You'd love to see him develop. But are you in a develop Brock Purdy mode right now when he got hurt in his eighth game and Trey Lance got hurt in his second game? Do we have a year

and a half to look at Tray Lance. No, but I don't want to be in the world of going after Derek Carr for $25, $30 million, and he's not any better than Purdy maybe, right? He's not just totally putting us over the top. So that's why I come back to do they, what do they have up their sleep, the team that went for Christian McCaffrey outbid the Rams for him during the season. It's Tom Brady's music, Mike. It's Tom Brady. So that's what I wrote today. And I felt a little bit like, Sandell, are you just going for clicks saying Tom Brady. I mean, it feels like the Tom Brady and Roger stuff could just be written all the time. But it just lines up for me too much.

And a week, two weeks ago, when we were talking about this, it was all, you know, the logic is really the Raiders, you know, with Josh McDaniels. Well, the sea has part of the skies have cleared. Brock Purdy's not even going to be throwing a football till June. Trey Lance had a second surgery. This is wide open. What are you going to do? Hey, Tom, what's the lowest number you'll do?

The cap just went up, but we've got, can we get you at a good number? One year, 12 million for Tom Brady. It would be awesome. It would be fun. And then great for Brock Purdy, because I think he has shown enough to be part of this thing and to have a shot at it. So then what happens to Trey Lance? I don't think you can be concerned about that. And I apologize directly to Trey Lance because I hope he has a great career.

But I don't think that they can be. unless they really feel, unless he comes back really healthy and they're really excited about him. But how are you going to find that out? Didn't he have a second surgery? Yeah. They have to know that. They have to know that way better than I do. They're with him in the building.

But it wasn't like we ever got the feeling that it was just close to being amazing. I feel like now there are only played though. He's barely played. There are two years down the road of being in the window of where they're trying to upgrade for this team. He has barely played. I don't think it's fair at all to say that. I say that it's not fair at all to say that he can't be it. It's also not fair to that team to say he has to be it.

I think that is fair. It's not fair to that team. He played, he had two starts last year. Five quarters. He didn't even make it through his fifth quarter. He was five quarters this year. And four of those quarters were in a monsoon in Chicago in week one. Like we have not seen, we have barely seen Trey Lans.

play football in the NFL. There is no way we have any idea what Trey Wants is. That's why, can you, if you're the 49ers in good conscience, go into the season with someone who we have no idea if he's going to be a good player at quarterback and someone who made it eight games and now we don't know how he's going to throw? What if he needs a year to get all the way back? Can you do that in good conscience, John Lynch and Kyle Shanahan with this team that was in an issue that was in a close NFC championship game without for a while without being able to throw a forward pass

I mean it wasn't that it wasn't a blowout right away it got a little bit away from them at the end of the half but that game could have been there for them just with average we are not at all worried about what tom Brady looks like at the end this season you know you could be you could have some reservations these are evaluations have to be made They have to decide. The lack of interest in physical contact that Tom Brady showed near the end of this season would be concerning to me if I were a team that was as close as the 49ers. I agree. I agree, especially because their quarterbacks do seem to get hit.

Now, some of that is you have to account for the free rusher and all of that. And I'm not sure that's been done in a couple of the big hits on the quarterbacks this season. But yeah, that's an evaluation. They may decide, nope, we saw it, we don't believe it. And if they do bring him in, he might last six games and that's it. But I feel like you have to try to do something. There's no way there's no way you can count on what you've got unless you really know something that we can't know from the outside. It's also not like this is some out of nowhere suggestion.

Like this is a dalliance and a flirtation that has already taken place, correct? You would think so. With the Niners in the Rockos? With the Niners in Tom Brady? Yeah, you would think so. You would think so. I mean, do you know who Jimmy Grappelization is? Don Yee represents Tom Brady.

Do you think that he's ever talked to the 49ers about has any rapport, you know? I'm sure it'll be. I'm sure it would be fine. The one thing that is just on a football level, I think, is worth noting is that a lot of the stuff that I think was the differentiator between what the Niners' offense looked like with Brock Purdy and what the Niners' offense looked like with Jimmy. and kind of added to the explosiveness was what they could do with him on boots and on the move and design rollouts and some of that stuff. I think that obviously what you're getting with Tom Brady as a pocket operator is enough to overcome that. But it does tweak a little bit of what really got them rolling here in the second half for this season, even if in the aggregate, it's still probably going to be pretty good. Yep, yep.

All right, Bengals. Bengals takeaway is just that brutal AFC, you know, and Buffalo and Kansas City all trying to go at it. And the Bengals having this advantage of the cheap quarterback right now. I did write about this in the pick six column. There's a chart that I really liked showing the top 20 average per year salaries for those three teams, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Buffalo Cincinnati and Kansas City. And do you know that Joe Burrough's 9.0 average per year, 9.0 million is in the realm of Mitch Morse and Marquez Valdez Scantling. That's the advantage they have right now. And it's not forever.

Joe Burrow becomes eligible for a new deal. They can make it so the cap isn't, you know, a problem right away. But they, these opportunities are so precious. I felt like they had probably a 51% chance. chance to beat the Chiefs. You know, it's 51-49. I liked them. And they've now had two real great prime swings to get the championship in this window, and it's hard. Now, Buffalo hasn't even gotten there. So they're ahead of Buffalo. I love where the Bengals are at, but it's not going to get easier for them. And so I just sort of come away from this going, wow, the Chiefs really

held them off. And that's why they were so happy after the game. Like, the legacies of all these people are being defined right now. And big advantage Mahomes, Kansas City right now, when it was just a hair. It was just a hair. They were right there. And this was going to be a year of Kansas City. We thought maybe taking a step back for the greater good of the long term, get rid of the Tyreek Hill, get some younger players.

But there in the Super Bowl, while doing that, that hurts me. if I'm Kansas City, even more because you were so close. And you beat these guys three times in a row. So I feel like it's not, it's unfair to say situation squandered, but that is a real, real tough opportunity to lose. And I'm not sure what they need to do other than come back and do it again. You know, I think they're right in it. Love them.

But it's going to get harder. One, I think, key difference between the Bengals and the Bills is that the Bengals aren't just on the cheap rookie quarterback contract. The Bengals have hit on a couple guys that have given them excess value at other positions in a way that I don't think the bills did over the last few years of the Josh Allen experience. Okay, so in 2020, which was Stefan Diggs's first year with the bills, I believe, correct? Yes. So kind of the first year where their Super Bowl window was really open.

Okay. He made $14.8 million, which was 6.7% of the salary cap. In his second year with the team, they pumped that number down. But so when he was making a non-tweaked number that was just his contract, it was 14.8 million, it was 6.7% of the cap. Okay. This season, Jamar Chase made 3.3% of the salary cap in 2020. to it's half. So they have a few of these.

T. Higgins' last cheap year is next year. Jamar Chase still has a couple cheap years left on his deal. Obviously, Burrow. That's really it. You know, they don't have a ton of other guys that are these really, really cheap assets. I mean, they've spent more in free agent money on their defense than I think any other team in the NFL has. But they've done a great job hitting on guys other than Trey Hendrickson was a lot of money.

They've hit on guys that weren't expensive. They've done an awesome job building it. But they don't have that many. home grown star level players that they've drafted. That's why they were picking first overall in the top five two years ago. But they do have a couple more of these deals that I think give you some of that excess value in a way that Buffalo didn't really other than Josh Allen. So I was doing this last week because I'm really nerdy, but I was taking the combined

cap numbers for the quarterback and number one receiver of those three teams. Yeah, that's a, see, that's a good one. At one point, it's like 60 million for, you know, Alan and D. digs and it's like, you know, 20 for Borough and, or something, you know, totally disparate, totally disparate numbers down the road on those contracts. And it's just a huge difference for your team. And Brandon Bean brought that up when he was asked about it. Somebody was like, hey, Brandon, uh, is there any trends that you can pick up on from what

the Bengals are doing? And you could see him just going trends. Yeah, the trend is there, we're paying way more money for our star players and there, than they are. That's a nice trend. The only other guy I think that on the roster is worth mentioning, because Jonah Williams has been, you know, he's been fine. I don't think he's been a great player for them. The only other guy, really, that is going to be on a cheap rookie deal that has been a standout homegrown player for them is Logan Wilson. Sam Hubbard is on an extension. Germain Pratt is about to hit free agency. Jesse B.Base is about to hit free agency. Mike Hilton's a free agent acquisition. Trey Hendrickson's a free agent acquisition. They traded for B.J. Hill.

DJ Reader is a big money free agent. Osai was nice for them as a rotational piece this year, but they don't have a lot of guys that they drafted that have already ascended for them. Yep. So we'll see what happens. I feel pretty good about their window. You never know.

You never know. And it's important to take advantage of those opportunities when you get them. But again, the fact that they have guys like a guy like Chase and a guy like Burrow on that deal for at least the next two more years, they are going to be well positioned to take a run at this thing. they're in a great spot. I think it'll be interesting to see how things go when it comes time for Joe Burrow to get a contract and Jamar Chase to get a contract and how high they go and how does Burroughs see it kind of the way Mahomes and Josh Allen did. I think they did deals that got them their money, but also helped the team in the structure of it, right?

Oh, absolutely. So that would be great. That would be great for Joe Burrow. I mean, for the team. I think it's great for Joe Burrow too. I think you create a better opportunity to really enhance your legacy, and you may leave, you may not make exactly the same amount of cash over the same amount of pace. But in the end, Joe Burrow and Mahomes, and these guys are going to have $500 million or $300 million or whatever it is,

they're going to be fine. And so if you can do that and see that, you know, you can have it both ways. And I think, I think, in Mahomes is certainly realizing that. So right now, Rogers still has the highest A-A-V in the league at like $50.2 million. If you're Joe Burrow, okay, Josh Allen's deal also with CAA, which is where Joe Burrow is, Josh Allen's deal was six years, average of like $43 million in change. If you're a Joe Burrow, you just say, give me six years $305 million, let's call it a day. I would love to be able to say that.

Yeah, that sounds like a good thing to say. I think he's more than justified in asking for it. And again, it gives the team a little bit of certainty. I remember talking to people in Buffalo after they signed that deal for Josh Allen. And it was not about, I can't believe the amount of money Josh Allen is making. It was it's nice to know what the quarterback is going to make for the next six years. The certainty is a benefit where the price almost becomes inconsequential. It makes building the team a little bit more difficult.

But it's like, all right, well, it's fine. That's what quarterback's cost. So I think that any deal where you're not like Dallas, which is, it's a four-year deal, you don't know when the quarterback is going to be up. You're always thinking about the next contract. If they can get him to sign a six-year deal that's a market-setting contract, I think that's probably nice for both sides. Yeah, it made me think of them finally selling the rights to their stadium, the naming rights. It was always Paul Brown's sitting. I don't know where the money goes.

I mean, that's what I'd be doing, too, getting ready for Joe Burroughs deal. They're sell at every inch of real estate now because they understand. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I was thinking of this yesterday. Think of the AFC North. Think how cool it is for the Bengals. I mean, because a couple years ago, it's Lamar Jackson and Baltimore.

Forever it's been Ben Rathesburger and Pittsburgh. And oh, by the way, Deshaun Watson is in Cleveland. I'm Cincinnati. I'm not trading places with anybody. No, think of that. Think of that. It's amazing what the quarterback does.

I mean, it is amazing how much it changes every aspect of what it is like to be an NFL franchise when you get one of those guys. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. You know, let's say the drags get Trevor Lawrence and the Urban Meyer experience is only 75% as bad. And we get two or three years of Urban Meyer that is just merely shitty instead of like all time disaster level. What does that mean for Trevor Lawrence? I mean, it's not a guarantee when you take that guy first overall, even if he is a number one overall quality talent, that he's going to be that franchise altering piece. I think that it has worked out very, very well for the Bengals.

They have a guy who is clearly wired to be that. They stumbled into is maybe not giving them enough credit, but getting Jamar Chase where they did, the fact that they had the fifth overall pick in that draft. And they probably got the most important offensive playmaker for that draft, a guy that played with their quarterback in college. It has all come together for them in a really nice way. But most of it is driven by the fact that they had the number one pick in a year where a franchise altering player was available with that pick. And didn't screw it up. Yes.

Yeah. Yep. All right. It's great. That is all we have. That is all we have for the Monday hangover edition of the athletic football show for the 2020 season. So Mike Sando, thank you very, very much for doing this all year with us because we will be in sunny Phoenix next Monday.

I think Nate and I are going to show next Monday the kickoff Super Bowl week. So this is our last one of these. I really appreciate you doing it all week. I'm misting up. I didn't know it was the last time until now. That's wonderful. I've had a great,

great time doing it. Thanks for having me on and look forward to a good offseason and continue rolling with the football GM podcast with Randy Mueller and bright days ahead. Yeah, you guys have no days off and no weeks off. Yeah, you guys are just going to keep on rolling right when I'm just to let you know. But if you guys have not listened to the football GM,

it is available in the Athletic Football Show feed every single Thursday. I listen to it every single week. I learn a ton. It is probably my favorite football podcast that I listen to right now because that's the one I listen to the most. So please, if you have not, go check out the football GM and all of the great work that Mike Sando does on The Athletic. Theathletic.com slash football show is where you can get an athletic subscription if you

do not have one. also please rate and review this show on your podcast platform of choice if you haven't it would be much appreciated please subscribe to our youtube channel doing a lot more video stuff here over the next couple weeks we're going to have some fun stuff coming your way during super bowl week so now is the time to subscribe if you have not for now really appreciate you guys listening we'll be back on wednesday with nate and i we'll talk to you soon this was the athletic football show