The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Kyler Murray gets paid, Lamar Jackson & big questions before training camp with Dianna Russini

Episode Date: July 22, 2022

ESPN NFL reporter Dianna Russini joins Robert Mays on the heels of a historic long-awaited day for Kyler Murray. Hear Robert & Dianna's reactions to the deal & what it could mean for Lamar Jackson and other QBs + Trevor Lawrence, Brian Daboll & more big questions before officially heading into training camp 2022. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Today's Friday, July 22nd. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. Joining me today, ESPN NFL reporter, Diane Rucini. Diana, how are you? Great.

It is awesome to be here. Huge fan of the show. Talking to you feels so different because I listen to people all the time. I know I've messaged you plenty of times over the years of you've really become a staple in my house, whether it's car rides or on the beach. It's just Robert Maze is in my family, actually. So I have two sons. It's Michael and Robert. That is terrifying. I'm very sorry about that. And for the rest of the people around you that have to endure that all the time, but I very much appreciate it. It's very flattering. I wanted to have you on because it's training

camp time. We're getting started. I know that I am in the early stages of packing, figuring out what I'm going to need. I've got a bunch of clothes at the dry cleaner. All of that is happening right now. I think I leave on Sunday. I'll be on the road for a very long time. I assume you've got plenty of travel lined up as well. I mean, we are at that point in the NFL calendar. And I love being here because it's time to actually start discussing what's going to happen here over the next week, the next couple weeks, the next month. So I wanted to chat with you just about the biggest questions we have heading into training camp, some of the stuff that's lingering over. with the first couple weeks of training camp practices and training caps opening is going to look like. Yeah, I'm happy to be here in terms of the timing. It just felt like that was the longest off season. We've both been doing this a long time. And I don't know if it's just because the stories were the same. And a lot of it just was us having to wait for the news to break or get the news.

But I got bored this offseason by maybe early June. And I'm like, all right, I need a game. I need a camp fight. Someone to do something because I can't keep talking about Jimmy G and Baker Mayfield at the time. And of course, we're all waiting about, you know, we're waiting for Deshaun Watson. So, you know, when we talk about what are things I'm looking forward to in terms of camp, I actually kind of want to go away from that because I'm sure we'll get back to it. You know, yes, where's Jimmy going to go?

I don't know right now. You know, Baker's got a home. I am interested in that camp competition, right, in Carolina, right? Sam didn't get the job done. Baker's coming in. And I had a couple of conversations with people in the league over the weekend, actually. Just trying to get a feeling. What do you think Baker's going to win that?

What kind of, what version of Baker you think we're going to see? These are guys that are not with the Panthers. These are guys that are actually in the division. And most assume, and most are giving Baker, the benefit here, which I was a little surprised by because I was a little bit more critical, that they believe Baker is going to come in here so pissed and so annoyed and embarrassed. And all the words that we know that Baker probably has felt from how he was treated by Cleveland Browns that we're going to get a really good version. So to start off, if we're going to talk

the big stories for camp that I'm excited, I'll start with that one of the competition in Carolina. So let's put a pin in that very quickly because I want to start. with Kyler Murray chatter first because a few hours before we started recording this, Kyra Murray signs his huge extension with the Cardinals. I want to know what your first reaction was. We can talk about what this means for Arizona. We can talk about what it means going forward. When you saw the contract, what was the first thought that came through your mind?

He got exactly what he wanted. I made fun of Eric Burkhart's memo that he released publicly. I called Eric right after that. I said, what were you doing? You know, and I was trying not to attack him because he obviously believed that, you know, making the memo public, the memo, just to remind listeners, remember, he put together essentially just an argument as to why they should pay Kyler Murray and why he's the guy. And usually that, you know, that business is done behind the scenes between agent and GM. And it was out there for all of us to read, including the fans. So, you know, I had a long talk with Eric about it.

And, you know, he spent the whole time explaining to me why Arizona would make a gigantic mistake not signing him. And, you know, there was a little concern on my behalf, or at least when I was listening to him thinking, well, why are you pushing this? Why are you, if he's this good, let it play out. He'll get paid. It just feels like there's concern that maybe you believe there's a ceiling here. And he tried to explain that that's not. That wasn't the reason. And a lot of this was just trying to push them to get this done.

He wants to get this done. And, you know, I'll ask for a trade, you know, because I obviously followed up with because this was February, right? So I'm like, all right. It was a while ago now. Yeah, we were doing this forever. But if you notice anyone that follows the NFL, if you notice, we stopped kind of harping on it because it was assumed this was going to get done.

It felt like it was an inevitability in a certain point. Exactly. It's not like Lamar. We got a little weird and dicey there for a minute. Whereas with Kyler, it was like, all right, Steve Kimes saying the right thing. Cliff Kingsbury gets an extension as well. They've got the same age. And he's all in on Kyler.

Kyler says in April, I'm a cardinal for life. Ownership says everything's good. Social media goes up. Social media goes down. And then everyone was in love again. So this was bound to happen. And the guaranteed money, this is the future, Robert. This is what we're going to be talking about.

The timeline of it, I think the lack of urgency is built into the fact that this is when this stuff happens. Last year, the Josh Allen extension happened this summer going into his second to last year. So it's not like Lamar where this is the lame duck year. There's a ton of runway for this to happen with Kyler. And I think that's why there wasn't as much concern. And when I saw it, I just kind of nodded. It's like, yeah, that sounds right. Like when you look at the numbers, it comes in just ahead of Watson's average annual value.

It comes in with, I think, $10 million more guaranteed than what Josh Allen got. So all of it makes total sense. This is the type of contract you give to a long term. This is the franchise quarterback kind of guy. And I think that he is that for them in the ways that they've built around him. And that was my reaction. It's like, what else were they going to? do. They are him. He is so central to everything that they are right now because they're

kind of a weird team. I pose this question on Twitter earlier today. Just kind of joking, but not really joking. Like, what are the Cardinals? If you think about the Cardinals two, three years down the road, they've extended Steve Kime and Cliff Kingsbury, which we can argue about the prudence in doing that. But other than Kyler, they don't have a ton of young building blocks on this team. If you look at the 2024 financial outlook for this franchise, you have Kyler, you have 32-year-old DeAndre Hopkins, you have 28-year-old Buda Baker, and then you have a lot of guys who are going to be like 35. J.J. Watt, Rodney Hudson, that's the team. There isn't this underlying base of we know who we're going to be moving forward. They've built this so centrally around Kyler,

the coach that they have, the scheme that they have, the roster that they have, that they had to do this. So I understand why it happened. I think the numbers make perfect sense, but I still don't understand what this team is supposed to be two years from now, three years from now. It's kind of this hodgepodge of stuff and hodgepodge of plans that I guess individually all makes sense, but together forms a very muddy and to me not so rosy picture about what the next few seasons are going to look like. You have this explosive playmaker, which by the way, that's why I think he got paid. I think it's the explosive play. that we've seen him do.

And you could say... And they're fair. They're fair. You know, if we were to get really like, let's dig into the numbers. There's actually not tremendous growth from Kyla Murray. There isn't. But when you look at the options for Arizona outside Kylo Murray, they kind of had their hands tied here. And I love that you brought up the fact that they have built this team around his strengths

and who he is because you look at ball. Baltimore and as a comparison, they're an open book about it, right? You've got John Harbaugh coming out all the time going, you know, he's our guy. We're going to build everything around them. In Arizona, they were not as transparent about it. We can see it with our eyes and we understand how this offense works. But they weren't as willing to lean into it. And a lot of it, in my opinion, and also based on conversations I've had with people in Arizona, people that had played for them, people that currently play from that there, there's some issue with leadership there with Kyler and some immaturity that I think that's why there was a little hesitation, why this didn't feel so automatic the way it feels with Lamar like, pay the man, he is Baltimore, you know? So I think that was kind of the concern. And does that improve? We don't know.

And that's the, to me, the main question is the flash versus the substance of all of this, where they're chasing all of this flashy stuff. And that's what it's been like over the last couple of years. So you're chasing the big plays. You're investing in the big plays. But the underlying aspect of the organization feel like they're rotting a little bit. It just feels like the floor could fall out of this thing other than Kyler. And in two years, this could be a $50 million quarterback and nothing else. It's where the Texans were near the end of the Deshaun Watson time. And the end of the Deshaun Watson time. And the end. end of the Bill O'Brien era where you have this quarterback that was worth investing in, that was worth betting on because he's that level of player and the alternatives are not attractive, but everything else about the roster is in tatters. And then you're sitting there with a guy you've invested in and not much else. And that's kind of what it feels like is going to happen. It kind of feels like they're on that trajectory where, you know, right now, I can understand them pushing to be a wild card team, you know, with the guys that they've

invested in and some of the players on that team. But those guys are not getting any younger. and to me there are no ascending players to make up for whatever aging factor, whatever fall off you're going to have from those guys that you've traded for or signed that J.J. Watson, the Hudson's and the Hopkinses. So that's my question. It's like, what is this team two years from now, and I still don't have a good answer? And will your ability be something that haunts this team again?

Because we've seen Arizona come out really strong in the first half of the season and then the injury bug. you know, and these were, these were conversations that were being had with Eric Burkhar and the Arizona Cardinals front office when they were basically telling them to slow their role a minute here, you know, this isn't a clean cut deal, which it then transpired into it because I did, I do believe that the Arizona Cardinals looked around and realized, yeah, we got to do this, you know, and look, they're invested in Cliff Kingsbury. You know, I personally thought if you were to. ask me like, you know, who's on the hot seat? I would have said, Cliff before that deal got done. I thought this was going to be it. But they're all in on him. And look, we've seen it before. They could pay him out if they decide that this really isn't working. But they're not paying him this much money to do that. They're going to try to, they're going to give him at least two years. And that, again, speaks just the lack of cohesive plan. It's like, well, a guy we thought

would be on the hot seat, just got an extension through 2027. So you look at all of these moves and individuals, it's like, what is going on? Like, what do you want to be? What are you trying to be? And I think there are all those lingering questions about what the back hack that their seasons look like. It's the cliff adjustments, and it's the Kyler Health. And if those things continue to be a problem, it's leading this team into more dead ends. And so we'll see what happens this year. I think the short term will be fine. I think the midterm to long term, there are a lot more pressing and to me problematic questions that are waiting around the corner. Lesson learn, GMs. Get your

quarterback contract's done early. Look what happens. The Josh Allen deal and the Patrick Mahomes deal, I mean, think about how great those look already already. And that's why if you know you have that guy, just pay him. Just pay him. And what the Ravens are going to be running into now, now you have all these deals that have been signed.

And the Watson thing is a total outlier. And I feel like the Cardinals structuring it in this way where the only element of the Watson deal that's really in play here is the average. It has nothing to do with the guarantees. I think that's probably Steve Bishcheon. Shottie's breathing a sigh of relief, and I think other guys run the league probably are as well, that now most teams will probably be negotiating off the Kyler numbers rather than the Deshawn Watson numbers.

But you still have those elements, the guarantees, the value, those keep creeping up and up and up. And that's not a good sign for these teams that are going to be waiting on those quarterback deals. And my God, how much is Justin Herbert and Joe Burrow going to get two years from now? Remember when DAC that paid? I was like, oh, my God, how much they didn't get? Holy Kirk Cousins, I thought, was like paying too much money.

And it's pocket change compared to what these guys are getting now. So, yeah, so there you go for all those GMs that listen every single week here. There's our advice for the two journal attacks. I don't know how many GMs listen. I know a couple coaches listen, which always makes me a little bit weary. But the GMs, I feel like we've got fewer of those guys as part of the podcast audience. All right. So let's get to some of these questions we have leading into kids.

camp. And I think that a natural transition here from this Kyler conversation is what's going to happen with Lamar Jackson, why it's taken so long, what the next steps are. Based on the conversations that you've had, do you feel like this Kyler News could create some urgency with what's going to happen with Lamar and the Ravens? I do with Lamar showing up to camp. That's always a great first step, right? He's not holding out. He's there. From the conversations have had for months, You know, and they've been very similar. They've been really impressive, by the way, with keeping that information pretty close to the vest. It's usually you can find a leaker.

You can get one. I think it helps that it doesn't have an agent, right? That's always that's usually the first one you go to. So they have done a step. How do you think that's complicated the process, though? It has. But I have regrets about going on television. February saying get an agent get an agent be a pro do this the right way let somebody handle your

deal because if you look at it now he he doesn't need an agent because the market has been set reset you know after Deshaun and now after Kyler um so in terms of the holdup earlier in the off season after having a few conversations I was trying to get the number of where Baltimore was at because that hasn't even been out there yet like where did they start and I couldn't get the exact number from a source in Baltimore. But he told me that it was a number that I think I'd be surprised by it because it was lower than what we were all talking about. And that's all I gave me.

You know, it's something I can go out and report hard news as. And I thought that was an interesting first out of the gate thought from Baltimore, who we've just discussed. They have fully completely invested in him in terms of making the Ravens. Lamar Jackson's team offensively, especially. So then that just tells me that the reason why this isn't getting done then is the money. It's finding a place where they are both agreeing. And Lamar really doesn't need to negotiate that much because he can just point to the

quarterbacks that just got paid. So yeah, do I think this is going to light a little fire? Yeah, but look, he has shown patience. He has shown discipline. I don't think he's just going to get sloppy now. I think he's waiting for that number that he feel that he should get, which is be the highest paid quarterback. Highest paid, you mean per year?

Do you think that the Rogers thing is probably what he's aiming for? Yes, I'm sure he's looking to be around that, if not close. And it makes sense. I mean, he's got an MVP in his back pocket. Kyra Murray doesn't have one of those. And that, I mean, it leads me to a similar place to where we were with Kyle where it's, what else would the Ravens do? They put themselves in a position now where everything they've said publicly, the way they've structured all of this, do they really have another choice?

Or do they say, you know what? We can franchise them. If we need to do that, we could ultimately franchise them. Usually with stuff like this, I always just think it's way more smoke than fire. And this stuff will get settled. It'll be fine. We'll figure it out. But the timeline of this has just been so strange that it puts my alarm bells on more than it would be in another situation.

And I don't know if that's fair. But that's just how I've been reacting to this. It's like, man, this is just rare. It's rare for somebody of his stature and of his importance to the organization to get this far down the road without any sort of clarity. And that leads me to worry a little bit. I'm less worried than you are only because, and look, we're at different years in terms of their contracts. But we've seen the court of X, July's the month. That's just like when it happens.

So if we were recording this right now and it's August 15th, all right, I'm probably starting this podcast. He's screaming. What are they doing? What are you know, what's happening? So, yeah, I'm calm. I'm going to give it like 10 more days and then I'll text you and be like, okay, I'm freaking. That's the exact right timeline, I think, because then we're a week into camp and then things are really getting started. So that's totally fair.

All right. Let's stay on the quarterback thing here because the next question that I have is, where does Jimmy Garoppolo end up now? And that is the last quarterback domino to really fall. And I don't know how you feel about this. My entire stance on this, the whole time, is that he's getting released. Because there's no leverage on the Niners side of this. They traded away 10,000 draft picks to move up for Trey Lance.

He has a $25 million-based salary. Baker Mayfield went for a five, and the Browns had to take on most of the money. Do you think a team is going to actively trade for $25 million of Jimmy Gropolo right now when the Niners have no incentive to keep him on the roster? It's not like the Baker thing, where they had to deal him because they were going to eat the money. They save all of it if he gets to a place where he can pass a physical and they can release him. That always felt like the natural endpoint of this. He'd get healthy sometime in August. They would realize that the market wasn't there outside of some sort of fluky quarterback injury elsewhere where a team

was completely desperate, which is an argument for hanging out to him, by the way, he was ultimately going to be released because that's just how it was all going to unfold. It feels like we're continuing to barrel toward that place. Am I wrong about that? When the news broke from my colleague, Adam Schaeffer, that they're allowing Donnie to also seek a trade, that information was sort of understood from everybody in the league. Everyone was like, yeah, we know. That's how I reacted.

I was like, yeah, okay. I don't like, how is that different? Yeah, I thought, well, well, I'll actually share this. I followed up with a source I have in San Fran. I mean, a few, but this one guy's just answered. And I said, hey, haven't you guys been doing this? You know, he's like, yeah, yeah. And I guess a moment of frustration was like, I don't know what else I have to

see to make it clear that Tray Lance is our quarterback. because I was trying to say, well, are you guys keeping them? Like, you know, maybe you guys are going to do this like hybrid thing. I don't know. I was trying anything to just see if maybe Jimmy was the plan. Maybe they have to consider it. And it's no, no. So you're spot on with that's going to wind up happening, right?

Because you look around the league, I can't find it. And that doesn't mean it's not happening, of course. I can't find a team that wants Jimmy right now and is willing to give up picks and pay that. Because either... No one can even fit him under the cap except for the Browns. Exactly. I do not think the Browns are going to do that. And they don't.

From the conversations that I had, I don't not sense a Jimmy. Do I think they're right? I don't know. But that doesn't seem like that's something that they're in the, they're not in the Jimmy G sweepstakes. They are committed to the Jacoby percent timeline for as long as the Sean Watson is out. There's the way I understand the situation. They are still going to be trying out, we'll say.

other quarterbacks, but they are moving forward and so is their offense. The team believes that Jacoby percent is the starting quarterback until Deshaun comes back if you were to get suspended. So usually if the team, you know, if receivers and running backs are being told that in meetings and when they're going over stuff, that's usually true. They're not going to lie to the guys. But with Jimmy, you know, I hate telling the story because we don't know that way of just or sharing the story or the situation of the only time we're going to see Jimmy

get moved under a desperate situation is going to be if somebody gets hurt. But I just don't know how long San Francisco can keep him on this roster. They're going to have to make moves. They got to pay Nibosa, right? They got to pay Debo. They have a lot they have to address. And then let's, I mean, we could, we could spend the whole podcast talking about what would that locker room be like? That's my thing. And if there, even if there's an argument for maybe hanging on to him as insurance or it's $25 million, but when you think about the aggregate of what we're paying our quarterback position, we can actually do it. To me, it's a culture thing. If you're trying to give the organization to somebody and you're thinking about the standing that you're

starting quarterback house in the locker room, I guarantee you there are a lot of Jimmy Garoppolo fans in that building. Within the locker room, teammates, if you really want to give Trey the best chance to flourish, I don't think you can have a guy in there who people have previous ties and loyalty to. I spend my mornings reading graphics and hearing the graphics read on ESPN of, you know, Jimmy's winning percentage. And I witnessed myself at the NFC championship game when they lost, Jimmy crying in, in the locker room and teammates looking just, I remember talking to Trump Williams,

walking to the bus. And, you know, he was more upset. I don't want to say he was more upset about losing the game, but, you know, more upset about losing Jimmy than the game. But the first thing he said to me was like, this is really hard for Jimmy. And I was like, oh, man, you know, like these guys love him. And it makes it difficult. And, you know, it's funny.

I was on get up. And Robert Griffin III was on with me. And it was one of those moments in TV where I wanted to scream to Mike Greenberg. Ask Robert Griffin, what it's like to be in a locker room with the quarterback sitting on your shoulder. He's the one who knows. Like he spent all those years with Kirk Cousins and, and, you know, the offensive coordinator at the time, ironically, Kyle Shanahan, you know, pushing for cousins to be the guy. So, you know, I think the cultural world's like, like you pointed out, that side of it just makes it so dicey, you know.

And at one point during the summer, I remember thinking, what's more awkward, Jimmy Jean, Trey Lance or if Baker was in Cleveland with Deshaun, like both teams had just disasters to deal with. I think it's the Baker-Jshan's situation is definitely more awkward, but I totally understand. But the dynamics of it are dicey. And I do think that was always the argument against hanging on to him as insurance for me. It's like, you can't do that. You can't do that financially. You can't do that from the way you're structuring your leadership and your building, all of that stuff. And I think that we're finally coming to a place where I thought we were always going to,

where he was going to get released and be able to choose his spot. But now the question is, where would he go? my tanenbaum made a point today. He said, oh, there's Seattle, Seattle Seahawks would be the team. And like, they're not trading him to a team in their division. They're not doing it. But if he gets cut. Now, if he's cut, okay, could that happen? And I had to, of course, throw it into Tanibom. I'm like, of course, that's your theory. You would say to go to for him to get traded to Seattle because you're the same person who traded Chad Pennington where Brett Far came to New York and Chad beat you when the dolphins played. the Jets. That's like the nightmare scenario, right, where you trade away the guy and then he come back to haunt you. So they got to play him too many times for them. They're not going to make

that deal. And every conversation, Robert, I've had with Seattle has been we're riding with Drew. And like all that Baker talk. Really? They kept saying to me, stop saying that we're not in it. We're not in it. I was like, okay. Like I'll take your word. I trust you. So I think, we need to take Seattle out. And if Seattle's out, then where is it? That's my biggest question. Because it's the last, if we're playing it's game of musical chairs, Seattle's the last seat. Seattle is the last quarterback seat.

Other than that, no one else has a starting job that's really even up for grabs. So does he end up in a place like Houston where, yeah, we have to play out this Davis Mill string, but we'd like a backup option. Obviously, Nick Casario was familiar with him. Miami would be the one that would that would seem to make sense but they have Teddy there now. So they've invested,

I think Teddy's making like $6 million this year. He's making like a real backup quarterback. I call that the backup, but also we don't really love our starter and in case you have to play, that's the contract. That's exactly what Teddy is on. So if you already have a guy in that range,

can you really go get another one? So all of these seats and all of these potential options are starting to get filled up to the point that I have no idea what ultimately ends up happening. Yeah, when Tyreek isn't getting the ball from Tua downfield and he starts throwing a tantrum, enter Teddy. Oh, yeah, that famously strong arms Teddy Bridgewater.

I don't know which one. I don't know what's the better situation there for Tariq. I think that, you know, kind of it's fun to sort of connect dots of who knows who and, you know, which offense would be fit in, you know, and you look at what they did in San Francisco and you try to look around and they're like, all right, well, what, what resembles that? I live in the New York area and, you know, there's a lot of chatter on our sports talk radio. The Giants, you know, Daible was in New England when Jimmy was there and that would be a good connection. They're not all in on Daniel, obviously. They didn't give it, you know, an extension.

But Tyra decided that exact contract that we were just talking. talking about. That's my pushback on it. So that makes no sense because they're set there with Tyrod, right? So where? And it's actually kind of like I find it a little comical that we're like, where, right? I mean, because we don't, we really don't know. And, you know, the closest I truly believe that Jimmy was actually going somewhere was

Indy. And that was before Matt Ryan. And they did tell me, though, sources there in Indy. share with me, we have significant concerns that he can't have an off season. And he's not to be part of our program with the shoulder. So we're out, we're out. And they kind of like backpedaled on it all. But initially they were in before the whole shoulder thing, which really were getting desperate.

They were, they were getting to a place where they needed something. And I think they were going to be backed into a corner and having to do something they didn't want to do until this Matt Ryan thing fell into their laps. Oh, and that came together really quickly, that entire trade. And it came to the final hour, too. I remember Chris Morton's chapter and I worked on that story. And we were on a group text. And we had it, eyes dotted, T's crossed, but we were waiting for the green light from all of our sources. And we just kept getting told the same things.

And I don't think we all had the same people of like, it's not done. Because apparently it was coming down to Matt. Matt was the one to make the final call if he wanted to do it. Teams, they were set on the trade, the money, all that stuff. It was, does Matt really want to leave Atlanta? And of course, and he did. And I think he's better for it. The one team, as I look at this, there are two, okay?

There are two as I look at this that would make sense if we're kind of putting a bow on this Jimmy conversation. One is Dallas, and it's for this reason. if that got hurt, the season is over. The idea of playing Cooper Rush for 12 games is pretty rough, and they're a team with a lot of talent and with a coach that can't afford to have a lost season. So that would be one where I think there would be some urgency on their end to potentially go down that road. Two, the Raiders. Jared Stidham is the backup quarterback there.

Is there any sort of McDaniels connection again if we're trying to put the dots together? And the third one, I would say, is maybe Denver. Because Josh Johnson is their backup right now, and Josh Johnson's been around for a very long time. Are they at a place where, you know what, we've invested so much in this team. We want some sort of insurance if Russell Wilson were to go down and the season isn't totally lost. Those are the only three where it's even like a shot in the dark sort of thing.

And even those I don't feel good about it. And you're saying if those quarterbacks were to be injured. You're not saying that they should consider this. No, not as a start. But like, let's say because... You want to bring Jimmy Garoppolo in behind Russell Wilson? If we get to a place where he gets released and there's no market for him and you call it on you and say, listen, he doesn't have any other options.

We'll give him the Teddy contract to one year, $6 million to come here and be the backup. If it comes to that, because there is a world where it might have to come to that, where he has to take backup quarterback money to sign somewhere because there's just no available spot for him. Is that crazy? No, that is going to be the world. I just think, well, this is if no one gets hurt, right? This is going to probably be the situation.

They're going to get, he'll get cut, released, and a team will take them on. But who wants a starting quarter? Like, Jamie's not a backup, right? So we talk about the- You have to feel very good about the status of your starter in that locker room. It's now going to become very awkward, no matter where he goes. This is a guy who's won. So I think that's a tough spot.

I'm going to push back on your Denver theory only because it's Russell's first year. There's a lot of, I know, I love what you're doing. I just don't think he needs that, right? They have enough. They have a first year head coach. That's a very good point. I think that's exactly right. That's why I was thinking about Dallas, though, because that's Dax team.

There's no questions about that. That is like, that is solidified there. So you need somebody who's on really, really, really. solid ground as a starter, but a team that's far enough along where you really don't want to lose a season if you lose your starter. That's the needle I'm trying to threat here. I also think a team that's probably knocking on the door, right? I think that that's, all right, let's just, because we're playing this game, Philadelphia, Jimmy G could step into there to Philly and win with those lines and those weapons. They could. Yeah. Like, look, their run game's good.

it needs to get better this year. But look at what Howie Roseman built this year. You don't mean that much at quarterback. I think we just solved it. I like this a lot because, God, nobody loves accumulating and stockpiling quarterbacks

more than Howie Roseman. So that part of it, I did not give enough here as I was considering this. Gardner Minshu is there. They traded for Gardner Minshu, so I feel like they have made a somewhat of an investment in a backup quarterback, but I'm not sure having Gardner Mintrae precludes you from going out and doing this. And like we mentioned

with the dolphins, I think part of the reason that you might want to go out and get a Jimmy if you're Miami, let's say if Teddy wasn't there, to give yourself a contingency plan. If you do fall out of favor, if Tua does fall out of favor there, you'd have an option. And I don't think that's going to happen with J.1 Hertz. But there's a world where they just decide he's not the guy to take us where we want to go. We need to try out another option. Is there a better organization that is an example of a contingency plan than the 2017 Super Bowl champs with Nick Falls when Carson Wentkins are you know what I mean like it's like it's poetic it's beautiful but I don't think it's going to happen it's a fun theory and and if you were to ask me about the ideas you just

threw out there the one that I like the most is actually Dallas I think that's smart I think that's confident enough in who he is he's the leader of the team he's the face of the franchise he's loved, he's the best shape of his life, all the things that we've been hearing. And they've dealt with this before. Remember the year Romo got hurt and he was out for a huge chunk of time? That team was a disaster. They were unwatchable.

And Jerry's not getting any younger. You know, Will McClay's been there for a really long time. He saw that firsthand. I think the idea of a lost season for them at this stage of things, like trying to protect themselves from any sort of eventuality where that happens, I think is something that should be on their minds. There's a part of me that wants to start this whole podcast over and just go through every scenario with Jimmy G's,

the backup on every team and do like a weird, like the pros, the cons and really maybe we could find the team. Like, that's it. That's it. You know, we're so blind to this. It's funny that we've reached this point,

but I did have a sinking feeling through the entire process that we'd ultimately get here, just because there was going to be no leverage on their part and with the way the contract was structured. And here we are. All right. Let's get to some non-quarterback questions here. What is the first one that you had that came to mind when you're thinking about what you're going to be watching next week? Okay.

Wake Martindale is now picking over the defense in New York, right? You look at his history. You look at what he did in Baltimore. They were exotic. They blitzed. It was sophisticated. And now he's going to the Giants where they had a completely different type of defense the last few seasons. I'm interested to

They had, I think, more eight-man, like more drop-eight looks in the last two years than anybody in the league. Wink Martindale has never dropped eight people into coverage in his entire life. That may actually be a stat. I'm going to look it up on more about this because that may be right.

So I'm curious, and I'm definitely going to be floating by Giants Camp. I'm really interested. Obviously, I want to see Daniel Jones, but the defense is, what is this got to look like? And how is he going to be able to get and keep his way? Is he going to need more than a year to implement this?

And any coordinator I know that are like him, they're so set in how they do things. They're great teachers, but they only know one way. And this is going to be, I think, a completely different revamped look for this giant steep. And so for me, that's going to be one of my smaller,

but almost like sneaky. these interesting storylines, at least in the NFCEs, starting with the New York Giants. So I was wrong about this. The Giants were number two in the NFL and the amount of times they rushed three guys last year. The Patriots are number one. The Ravens were actually in the top seven. The Ravens were like seven. They had 55 plays where they only rushed three guys last season.

So I feel I was wrong about that. So that's okay. I'm with you know, because it's, it, I think it just makes sense that it made more And once you write it back, I was like, okay, well, we're wrong there. But that's all right. But either way, there's got to be, I think there's also going to be a cultural adjustment for him from where he's done things. So that one is, we'll just start with that. And then I'd say, if you want to keep talking about that one, we can. So I do. Because I think that I'm also going there. And I'm going there in part just because I'm curious about it. I'm curious about what it's going to feel like there.

I'm curious about just every aspect of the organization and the turnover that's happening. They're really turning over a new page in so many ways. You know, Getteman was an extension of the Marys, like an extension of just what they'd done forever. And this does feel like something new. And I think that I'm going to be more interested next year and like what it actually looks like and what the on-field product looks like because I do think they're quietly going through what is going to be a pretty significant rebuild. When you think about the cash they've spent this year and the lack of it,

the amount of cap space they can open up. But I still want to know what the feel is compared to what it would have been like in years past because I think that's important. Can I tell you what it feels like now? Because I have been there. I'm very curious. I cover them during the draft. I'm just going to start Joe with Joe Shane, okay, the GM, who,

I mean, you talk about just already instilling away. He reminds me of the old giants. And obviously, you know, with his background being in Buffalo and he's got a little bit of Brandon Bean in him, very detail-oriented, very particular, very type A, they're buttoned up. And his relationship with Brian Dayball, it just works and they'll tell you it works. And they're not doing it to sell you. They're like, look, we just, we can finish each other's sentences. And I think that's the benefit they get from both coming from Buffalo. And then you have Brian Daible who I love talking to players about him. So Daibald is a big face timer, big facetimer. You don't call him. You don't text him. He loves it. He's just, he reminds of like my parents who

just discovered Google last year, you know. He's like, I think he's just so excited by it. But he has these like ways of connecting with these guys. And, and you know, you look at, you look at, where Gable's been, whether it's Alabama, New England, New York, and the people that he's worked under from even going back to like Eric Manjini days, he takes a piece of everybody with him. And when you talk to him, he does have his own voice, his own way. But it's so obvious he's been around really damn smart people. And I've really enjoyed having conversations with him over the last.

I've known Brian Gable for 15 years. So I was going to ask you, when do you think that happened, be that transition for him really developing his own voice? Because I think even he would admit, and he said to me that he didn't have that at the beginning, where especially in that first coordinator job in Cleveland, and then even when he got to Kansas City,

I don't think he was really secure in who he really wanted to be as a coach. Now, I think he is. And I think that transition has been huge for him. I think you gain confidence through success. And he'd had it. I mean, Josh Allen is probably, it's a nervous reason why he's able to stand in front of these guys in New York now. I mean, this is a huge market.

The New York Giants, and he's a first-year head coach. And I remember talking, text him with some players after the first team meeting, because I was curious to see what they will be like in New York. And they were in, they were in for, you know, and even just like small conversations of a head with St. Juan Barclay. Like you can tell there's a there's a legit amount of respect for him, that coaching already, but they like the guy.

And we all have seen, unfortunately, so many disciples of some of these great coaches. And Bill Belichick is always the greatest example of where, you know, these guys do struggle being who they are because they want to be their mentors. Whereas I think Brian learned from them. I think he realized like,

I got to just keep being me. And he's grown and developed. and he's experienced now. And this is why in the, literally in the halls, I've walked the halls of the giant's facility many times now this season, or this off season because I had to be there for coverage for ESPN. And there is a different feeling than what was there with Pat Schumer. There's different feel that was there, obviously, with Dave Gettleman.

So I think they're already starting on a good foot. And the fact that they did so well in the draft, I know they were excited about, they felt like they had success. And look, now it's, it's got to be Daniel Jones. It has, they have to develop him. And, you know, a lot of people have pushed back on me on TV, especially on ESPN, of why do you believe Brian Daibel is going to make Daniel Jones so good?

And I don't think he's going to make Daniel Jones so good. I just think he's going to improve him. I think you look at what he did with Josh Allen. You immediately can see that there were steps taken and just, I just don't know if they're going to have enough time. So here's my theory about the Giants. And after the James Bradbury move, I feel a little worse about this just because their secondary is pretty dicey. But they seem like the type of team, especially on offense, where we could have this kind of surprise 10 and 7 flash in the pan season where they sneak up on people because of just how much better their offense is compared to what it was over the last two years. And then they tear it down next spring anyway. That to me feels like a potential. six, eight month plan here for the Giants, where they surprise a lot of people, but they still understand what they are and stick with the plan they were originally going to follow,

almost in the exact same way the bills did in the first year under Sean McDermann and Brandon Bean. Daniel Jones through 49 interceptions, through 50 touchdowns, fumbled a ball 37 times, right? That's just like the easy stats that everyone talks about in New York. that is the that's that that's the first issue that has to be addressed and dable has spoken about it many of times i love that he's preaching this theory of i want dana to feel like he can fling this thing around but he knows he's got to help him figure out a way to make better decisions and and that is something i just from talking to some people there they have been working on it this has been part of the offseason plan so while i could

see them being sneaky, interesting, and maybe being able to win more games than last year. If you pose that question, are the John's going to win more games or they did last year? Yes, I do believe they will because I think they're going to have control over this offense. And I do think Daible is going to have control over Daniel Jones here in trying to help him get better. I went back to my notes before Bill's game. I was just curious of what I was reporting on on Josh. Alan, his first, yeah, it was his first year. And it was before David had gotten there. And some of the descriptions I was using remind me of Daniel Jones. There's so many similarities in terms of their

weaknesses. Okay, physically, they're not the same. You know, Josh is the biggest dude ever. Like, by the way, if you ever, have you ever met Josh in person? I have, yes. It is. It gets me every time. I mean, he's a big bearer and he's nice. But I'm always like, holy shh. you're so big. And you just don't like, it's almost like I don't expect it. That being said, though, there are a lot of his weaknesses are similar to what Daniel Jones are now. And I think this team, this organization is just hoping that the learning curve is quick and

he can quickly catch up and make those improvements that we saw in Buffalo. All right. Let's get to a few more of these here. My big question, just first one, first thought as it relates to training camp, what are the last few moves that we're going to see? It doesn't have to happen the first week. It can happen mid-August. But at some point during training camp, what are the last few dominoes to fall?

And the ones that I have in mind, do the chargers out on offensive linemen, do the Ravens or Packers add a wide receiver, do the Brown's side and endowment sue? Do the Niners say, this is completely untenable with Daniel Brunskill and whoever else we have at center and guard and pull the trigger on somebody like J.C. treter? What are the last few pieces on these potentially contending teams where teams say, you know what, we can't do it this way. We have to go out and get somebody because there are a handful, half dozen guys still on the street that I think could be real immediate contributors to potentially contending teams. Definitely would have said, Kyle Rudolph, by the way, needs to find a home,

which he did. We know now in Tampa Bay with Gronk will say, in quotes, retiring. I think the receiver space is interesting in Baltimore still, right? So we saw the mortgage hurt last year. We'll say, year, Mark Andrews comes out and just lights it up and he's this incredible contributor. When you take a look at their roster, Rashad Bateman, right? He's their number one guy. But then after that, they're just okay. They're right in the middle of the mix. So who do you have on the street right now? I mean, you have a guy like Will Fuller. I know injury is a problem. But anytime I've talked to coaches about Will's ability, his skill set, they always say the same thing. When he's healthy, he's so good. When he's healthy, he's so good.

And I would say the same thing for Julio Jones, right? So the Julio Jones experiment did not work in Tennessee, not even close. But when he was healthy, same situation. So I could see the Ravens making an addition once this Lamar Jackson contract gets situated. They seem like a team that's willing to make some sort of splashy decision like that more than the Packers are. They march by the beat of their own drum. They're going to go at their own speed. I think they're not feeling as much heat as the Ravens probably are and aren't willing to make

any sort of knee-jerk move in the way that the Ravens probably are they they love christian watson they love him from what i've heard uh obviously sammy wakton is another situation of of health right if sammy can stay healthy he can be a contributor there was a lot of good things coming out of that camp too that i'd heard about him that they just like him uh obviously it's early then of course we got the one-to punch with with uh aaron j j dill in there so i'm with you they're set and but like when would they ever make a big move like that right is it's just what they do They go with what they've drafted. They go with who they signed in for agency.

And they say, make it work, Aaron, and he does. I love the fact that they traded. They got a first round pick for Defante Adams. And then they just drafted two middle of the field defensive players with those two first run picks. No criticism. It is hard to argue with how steadfastly successful they have been over the last 20 years. They have a plan.

The plan often works. I'm often wrong when I criticize the plan. That's not what I'm doing. It's just hilarious. If you're a Packers fan, and all you've wanted for the past however many years is to make some move, even if it's not a good value, even if it's short-sighted, that gets me excited in the moment. And then you go out and get a Devante Wyatt and a Quay Walker in the first round.

It's just hilarious. They become a parody of themselves, even if it's a very successful parody at this point. Oh, I love the bit with it, actually. I remember last November when there was some topic about Odell joining them, I was like, no, don't break the street. don't bring on a big name star. Let Aaron figure it out. But yeah, no, they do it.

But look, the Packers defense, I mean, they're going to be dynamite this year. So while we have some concerns about Devante Adams not being there anymore, we can talk about that all day long, you know, I have no concerns that Aaron Rogers is going to be able to find a way to figure out with these young guys, especially Christian, that they seem to really like. What's your next one?

What's your next big question you got? Trevor Lawrence. And Doug Peterson, what is that going to be? You know, I listened to Trevor Lawrence's interview with Colin Cowher recently, and I'm so impressed. And I've always been impressed with him coming out of Clemson, but just the growth, you can hear he, that was a hard year for a kid that doesn't know what it's like to lose that much. And we kind of forgot about him because it was such a mess this year. and he was faced with so many challenges and the team was a disaster.

I think the time away from football for Doug Peterson was fantastic. I had a wonderful conversation with him in Indy when I saw him for the first time in months. He looked 20 years younger. I didn't, right? I was like, where the hell are you vacation? Because I need to go there.

Because you look amazing. He's like, I'd so happy to be back. I missed this shit. Like he was so fired up in the lobby of a hotel. on like a Wednesday. I'm like, we're not playing tomorrow. You know this, right? But I think he's going to take this challenge on

and I think he's going to help really help develop Trevor Lawrence. I do have some questions, though, about how this is going to work, right? So, you know, in Philly, Jim Schwartz handled a lot. He was really co-head coach there and took care of the defense so Doug could just really lock in on the offense. And this team needs a lot of help. Like they need a head coach that's going to have his hand and everything. So I'm curious, I really want to see how Doug is going to lead this team and how we're going to see a rooting for a resurgence, we'll call it,

or even just a start for Trevor Lawrence. One of my questions is how their passing game gets figured out. And it's similar to a lot of different teams. We've had so much receiver movement over this entire office use and over the past five or six months. You could go down almost every single team, and you could have questions about who's going to play. How do the snap shake out? Where do people line up? The Jags are one of them.

With Christian Kirk coming in there, and they have a bunch of slot players that are kind of overlapping talents, how do those roles ultimately shake out? How does the Broncos wide receiver snaps ultimately shake out? With Tim Patrick getting signed, with Corwin Sutton getting that deal, Jerry Judy was not drafted by this regime. When they're in two receiver sets, who are the two receivers out there? What does Jerry Judy's role ultimately look like? There are questions about that for a million different teams, and that's before we even get to, to me, the most pressing ones. What does that look like in Green Bay?

What does that look like in Kansas City? And what does that look like in Baltimore and Miami? Where you have these big name guys and these teams that are kind of on the brink, just how teams ultimately shape their receiver groups. And we'll find out about that pretty early, right? We'll see who's getting snaps with the ones. We'll see some of that. the way that stuff leaks out over the next two weeks,

I think that's going to be the thing I'm paying the most attention to positionally beyond whatever's happening with quarterbacks. I'm interested to hear what Andy Reid and Patch from the homes are going to say about these receivers after they pretty much spent the offseason not really sweating the loss of Tyreek Hill and just having some really good talks with people there. It's not like Patrick like Patrick's stiked with the guys. He's got like he's not. He's not as passionate. as I think a lot of the fans are about what it's going to look like. So yeah, I would put them as my

one in terms of I want to see what that's going to look like. I don't have worries about it. I just, I'm curious from just the football side of it of how Andy's going to come up with a way to make up for that speed and make up for such a playmaker like Terry. Who fills that role? Is it hard? Who is it? Right. So that one for sure. And, you know, these young receivers, obviously that we just talked about in Green Bay. How does that develop? How do they connect with Aaron Rogers? And what kind of Aaron Rogers are we getting this year?

Every year he's coming with a chip. He's pissed up about this. He's pissed up about all right, well, you're paid. Now what? What do we get? So those are really good ones and the Denver one I love as well. Green Bay and Kansas City, we just have such a crystallized understanding of what those offenses have looked like over the past few years.

You can close your eyes and just. think about what the Packers and the Chiefs look like on offense under Andy Reed and Patrick Mahomes and what this version of Aaron Rogers has been like under mat with floor. Now we have no idea. We have zero idea what it's going to be. And that's exciting. I have faith in both of those places and the people in charge to figure it out. But what it ultimately ends up looking like is such a mystery. And if you care about football and like it, I don't know how you can't be enthralled by it. I think while there's going to be changed, I actually disagree with you a little bit about the expectations of them. I think they're cemented. Andy Reed and Patrick Mahomes and Aaron Rogers

and Matt Moore, they have such a way of doing it that it almost, it's like they almost don't, they need the pieces, obviously, right? Every band needs everyone doing different things. But they're able to to choreograph this so much. They're the conductors of this thing that, that I don't think it's going to be terribly different or so shockingly, like, Chaita, I don't think you're saying that.

But it is interesting to think about how do they, I'm more interested in how do they make up for that production, that loss that we've seen year and and you're out with Devante, and was with Tyreek Hill, especially in tight games where you're like, or the Tennessee Titans come to mind just, I'm thinking about A.J. Brown against the 49ers. I remember seeing.

some clips recently going, how the hell do they find that again? Because that is remarkable. They're really going to have to do some work in terms of their skill players. They're another one where now you have Traylon Burks coming in for A.J. Brown and that transition, they're going through a mini transition there. This is kind of a weird year for them where they had this version of the offense with A.J. Brown and Derek Henry. And I loved it.

When it was rolling with Arthur Smith a couple of years, years ago. It was one of my favorite teams in the league to watch. Stylistically, I thought they had just tapped into something so cool. And last year, they try to replicate it a little bit with Todd Downing there. Now you trade away AJ Brown. You try to have some sort of replacement for him and Traylon Burks, even though I don't think it's a one-for-one replacement. You draft a quarterback in the third round that's kind of this weird dice roll where we know we probably need to do something at that position because we've run into a ceiling. But by spending a third round pick on this guy, He doesn't need to be the answer right away.

I've been very impressed with the job that Mike Vrable has done. You spend a lot of time there and you know that team very well. How would you characterize what this offseason has been like in that way and kind of what they're moving through in this moment? The thing that has always impressed me about them is they're steady and they don't panic ever. And I try to search for it. You know, even when Derek Henry broke his foot. that you never felt it when you were around them. It wasn't like, oh, we miss,

we're missing the most important player on our team. Usually when you're around teams, you feel it. You know, I remember when Stakewell, Barclay got hurt. And I was in New York and I was like, oh, my God, there's like, everyone was just depressed. And Derek's love, absolutely love by his teammates. It wasn't that, of course they were sad and empathetic, but it was, all right, kind of like next.

Like, all right, let's solve this. So they're a resilient team, which is what has made them so interesting, which is why Mike Vrable really has been the face of that franchise, despite the fact that they have had stars, right? You have Derek and they had AJ Ben Ryan Tannanhill. Yet it's really truly Vrable's team because they take on that personality that he has, which is just rough around the edges. It's tough and it's smart.

and that's probably my favorite characteristic about that team that gets overlooked because you often just make a judgment on a big bully or, you know, a big meathead and you just think. And that's what they are. As a team, they're a big meathead. Yeah, they should be in New Jersey. They should move them out of Nashville and just have them hang out down the shore. Right. So I obviously grew up with tons of meatheads. So I just have my own prejudices, I guess. And I just assumed, I remember the first time. And that, where I was like, like, I'm going to be very unimpressed with this person, I'm sure. And I, at the time, was probably a little too arrogant.

And I learned the hard way that he's freaking brilliant. And one of the smartest football minds have ever been around. And his players tell me that all the time. That's, that's just like, it's his best kept weapon, I think, is that he's such a psycho with details and film. And he has the answers to everything, it seems. So the fact that they handled their emotions well there, I think has helped them have success. So let's just get to, though, the concern here that I have.

And it was birth during OTA. So I went down to Nashville to cover rookie camp. I'm so excited to meet this kid. You know, obviously they felt the Tennessee Titans front office. And I'm going to assume Coach Braybill was part of that, believe that the A.J. Brown situation would get too messy. and became, would become a distraction that they thought now was the time to move on. I would like to spend another podcast with you and tell you why I think that was the biggest

freaking mistake, but we'll do that another time. Anyways, they believe it they're smarter than me. So they think it was the right move. They thought it was the right move. And AJ gets shifts. They go for Brooks here. And there are some characteristics that are similar to AJ. I wouldn't say a lot, though.

But there are some things that he does that I know that they're excited about. So I show up to camp and he can't. even get through warm-ups because he's winded. And the first sign of anyone ever getting winded, only because it was me when I was in college, is whenever someone's shoulders hurt, because you're breathing the wrong way, right? So you're doing weird things with your body to catch your breath, and he was doing it. And so that all of suddenly he had ice on his shoulders. And I'm not trying to play doctor here, but just as a reporter standing on the sidewalk, I knew right away, I'm like, he is out of shape. The damn rookies.

that they drafted in the first round is at a, this is a nightmare. Riebel is going to have this kid running from Tennessee to Ohio. And everything I've heard since then has been awesome. I've heard he's in shape. I've heard he's lost weight. I've heard there's been so much growth already. And this is an organization that doesn't like to share, I don't want to say it doesn't like to share positive stuff,

but they're not quick to to go there. And the stuff I've been getting from some people, some low-level people too as well, like they've heard that, oh, he's working out tons, he dropped the weight, he's good to go. So I think heading to camp,

this is a really good first step, considering I thought that was going to be an absolute disaster. Like I, when I saw that, I'm thinking, are they going to cut this kid? Is this going to be one of the worst moves? You know,

two years removed from what happened with their first? with our other first round pick. Another disaster, right? From two years ago, Isaiah Wilson, right? Yep. You know, so, you know,

who's not even in the league anymore, sadly, you know, and they had some fitness issues with him as well and some other stuff off the field. So, you know,

I think for Tennessee, they, they will, I have confidence and belief that they have the structure, the foundation, the right people. Ryan Tannehill,

I know he gets, a lot of criticism. And I think we all have, we can close our eyes here and see those three picks against the Bengals that cost them the game. And they were ugly. And the Tennessee Titans had that game. It was over. It was done. He lost the game for them.

And, you know, Ryan's been so open sharing about how difficult that's been for him. And he saw, you know, you see therapy for. And I've heard he's been fantastic during this offseason two. Again, never hear that about Ryan. I always just hear Ryan's tough. Ryan's great. Ryan's tough. Now I hear Ryan's like locked in, he's growing from it.

So I'm not as down on the Titans as I think the rest of the national media is right now, only because I've been, you know, lucky enough to be around a lot of those players and those assistants and the trainer. It's just around them so much that they, they just go. They're not worried about all the other stuff. They're not worried about what everyone else is doing. They're always just trying to get better. And it always goes back to fundamentals with them. there are teams that you give the benefit of the doubt because you've seen them navigate so many situations, right?

The teams have come to mind instantly. They made the joke about the Packers. They're one of those teams. The Steelers have absolutely been one of those teams under Mike Tomlin. We know the no losing seasons thing. The Ravens are one of those teams to me. How many different kinds of the Ravens have we seen? The Seahawks have been that way for a long time where they've navigated some weird waters and always been relevant.

And at a certain point, if the Titans keep doing this, you're going to have to have. have to include them in that conversation because last year is the best example you move on from your offensive coordinator you have all these crazy injuries and you're still relevant they're a step down from the real contenders in the aFC right but if they continue to be able to kind of pivot and work their way through some of these moments and still be a team that's winning nine 10 11 games they have to be included in that discussion and I think this year is going to go a long way and whether they deserve to be I think it's going to be a good test I absolutely think so I think the of that schedule that they hit last year when they lost Derek, you know, Buffalo,

the Rams, the Niners, they, you know, and they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they literally punched them in the faces. It's kind of stuggle of us, which, which is why, you know, Mike got coached the year because of that. I, I, 100% think it had everything to do with just, and being able to navigate that. And, and they love that underdog thing. They're a little bit like the Raiders with that. Like, they love that everybody. thinks that because the thing is they're right in terms of no one don't no one believes in that i mean i can't remember the last time i've even talked about them on a yes fan because we just don't we just we don't we count them out and even if they're the the number one c and the afc like they were last year it just

it's going to take some time and maybe it goes back to the meathead thing maybe they need to change the image a little all right i got two more very quickly that i want to run through before we get out of here similar to the offensive usage that I have questions about. I want to know what the secondaries look like with some of these teams. So the Bengals and the Chargers both drafted those third safeties. And the way that teams deploy those three safety looks and just the makeup of defensive personnel on the back end across the league, I think is a really, really cool story.

We've seen it with offensive players where the stat I looked up recently this week, 40 players played 200 slot snaps on offense in the NFL last year. 10 years ago, the number was 18. So twice as many guys played 200 snaps in the slot. And because of that, you have all these different body types, right? You have a team that can play Alan Lazard and Devante Adams for 200 snaps apiece. All these different types of players that you could throw there. That is necessitated defenses being able to play a bunch of different kinds of players

in that exact role. And I think that defenses are two years behind, maybe, that curve in the way that the scheme is going. And I think this year, some of the choices that the Bengals made, the Chargers made, the Ravens are making with the amount of safeties they're adding, we're starting to see the reaction. So how those snaps ended up getting divvied up in places like that? How many snaps does Derwin James play in the slot because J.T. Woods is in there? How many times do the Ravens get all three of their safeties on the field at the same? same time. I'm really curious what the breadcrumbs from beatwriters look like about some of that

stuff because to me, that's like the next step in the way that defenders are going to start being used around the week. I've had conversations with DCs actually during this off season very similar to what you're pointing out to, which I'm going to guess that you've had some conversations as well. And I think it's one of those storylines that aren't as sexy at first. That's the sexiest thing in the world to me. Oh, I know you're the biggest nerd. But it's a good thing. It's a good thing for, for, it's good that you think that's sexy because I do, I think

you're, you're right about having to catch up because it is felt that way. And they know that. They know that as well. Like defensive corners have, they, they know they're behind on it. And they have to make these adjustments, you know, um, you know, just looking at some of the teams were the secondaries. I saw them making the adjustments. I just wasn't sure if they had a perfected it.

And this just. popped in my head right now was the Rams. They're the ones that have driven it. I mean, if you think about it, and they're very proud of this, by the way, they love the fact that they're this little petri dish about the NFL, where if you think about just where football is going and the experimentation that's kind of driving it forward,

that's where it exists the most. And Jordan Roderick, who does a fantastic job for us, has written about this at length, right? She wrote a huge story last year about how Staley and McVeigh kind of pushed each other forward. And I think that in Everly, because of that, think about how many Rams assistants are now driving offenses around the league and what that means.

So you have Cooper Cup in the slot for the Rams, okay? Now you have Alan Lazard in the slot for the Packers, where Matt LaFleure is a direct assistant to Sean McVeigh. Now Nate Hackett was an assistant of Matt LaFleure's is in Denver. What is their offense going to look like as a result of that? Luke Getsy, who is the quarterback's coach in Green Bay, is now the offensive coordinator in Chicago. They signed 6-2-2-220 Byron Pringle to play in the slot for them. So it's this expansion of the coaching staff literally growing the tree from Los Angeles and those ideas now permeating all around the league and just the effect that it's having on this grand level.

And that is very, very cool to watch. 100% is. And Rahim Morris is sitting there going, all right, I'm next. I'm next. You know, I mean, he's, and I would think he would be. And the last thing I had, and this is talking about nerdy shit, I want to know how the rookie offensive linemen do they instantly stick as starters? Because if you look at a lot of teams that have either playoff aspirations or really have to take a step forward, you mentioned the Jags,

for example. They drafted Luke Fortner in the third round. Is he going to be their starting center? And that may not seem exciting. It's not exciting. But there are a lot of those examples where if you can hit on one of those guys, what does it do to the rest of your offense. If Dylan Parham can be a starter for the Raiders, what does it do to the rest of their offensive line? If Logan Bruss can start for the Rams at guard, what does that do to their offense? If Tyler Smith can somehow be the starting left guard for the Cowboys, and he can be good from day one as a first round pick, what does that do for you? Bernard Raymond with the Colts. There's so many examples of these guys where Linderbom. Linderbom is another really good example.

I mean, there's just so many of them where if those guys can be, competent starters from this day one where you drop them in and they stick and there's no questions about them. If Zion Johnson starts for the Chargers from the moment the training camp starts and I never hear a word about him, that is a huge success for the Chargers, the save with Trevor Penning. And I agree. I think he will. Actually, I think he'll be a plug and play guy.

I think he'll start. I think Lindervaum and him are the two that, like to me, if you were to give me, those are the two that stick out to me the most. But I think the reasoning, and I'm assuming this is what you're alluding to, is it's a success because of just the fact that you're getting them developed so early in the system and you're saving money in the long run when you can get rid of some of these guys. Like if Cleveland could get some, you know, maybe find a third, we'll say elite offensive linemen, they can have more success down the road. road. It's finding these guys young and it just seems like that's been the biggest challenge for so many of these teams. And obviously with a guy like Coach Callahan, if anyone can develop a young offensive line, it's him from everything I've heard about what he's done there. I mean,

everywhere he goes. I can't get enough of him. It's just these little weak links that become not weak links. Like the Colts, like you look at their roster coming into the office scenes like, man, they need a left tackle. For the second year in a row, they need a quarterback and a left tackle. Great place to be if you're in offense, by the way. And you, you look at the coach. And you needing both of those spots. But if they can stumble into a Bernard Raymond in the third round, and he's going to have to fight for that job, and it's not his job. But if he ends up winning it, and we're talking on September 1st,

man, Bernard Raymond, Bernard Raymond had a great camp. He's going to be their week one left tackle. Those are little tiny things that add up. If you can solve those problems in unlikely places along the offensive line, it can be huge for you down the road. That's always a dorky question. I asked head coaches at camp. And even during the season, I'd go back to it.

And you'd be surprised how many answer it. I always go, what, like, what keeps you up at night? Like, when you actually, like, when you, like, if to go to the bathroom and the middle of the night and something, like, comes in your mind or when you're in the shower, because that's always like when we all think the most. And what we're discussing right now is 100% one of the conversations I've had this year already about concerned about offensive line. And are the young guys going to be able to step in and do it and get the job done?

Awesome. Well, Dana, that's all I got. I sincerely, sincerely appreciate you taking the time to do this. way too long for us to make this happen. So thank you very much for doing it. I know that you're about to get on the road and your time is valuable right now. So it means a lot. Well, hopefully I get invited back. I'll be listening. You will certainly be invited back. Guys, thank you very, very much for listening. We will be back on Tuesday. Just a quick programming heads up. Starting August 1st, we're going to be back to four days a week. But next week, we're going to have

three shows again. We got really fun stuff coming your way with training camps opening. I will be on the road starting on Sunday. So we will have dispatches from camps starting in the middle of next week. It's a great time of year. In the meantime, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I would very much appreciate that. Please subscribe to the athletic. I'm telling you, you cannot follow this stuff without a subscription to the athletic.

Every single bit of camp news, who's starting, who's struggling, who's playing. The nuggets that you're going to be able to get from our writers are nuggets that you cannot get anywhere else. So please get your subscription now if you do not have. We'll be back on Tuesday. Enjoy your guys this weekend. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.