The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Lessons from the NFL's best defenses in 2021

Episode Date: June 17, 2022

The Athletic’s Diante Lee joins Robert Mays and Nate Tice to discuss the lessons and trends we learned from the NFL’s best defenses in 2021. They talk about everything from stopping the run, to rushing four, the ideal nickel body type and much more. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. Today's Friday, June 17th. I'm Robert Mays. Really fun show for you guys today. We did this last off season. We're doing it again. I think it's a really good exercise at this point in the calendar.

Looking back at some of the best defenses from 2021 and trying to pick up some breadcrumbs we can pick up about just lessons to learn, things to take away, principles that maybe other teams should enact moving forward. And here to help me do this to wonderful, wonderful folks, the Athletic Zone, Nate Tice and DeAte Lee. DeAte, this is the first show you were on, I think, ever on the FIDA football show, was when you were working for another football media company and when you had you come on to do this, it's a lot easier when you're in the Slack and I can just pin you

about it. Much, much, much easier. And I think that now from that and keeping an open line of communication between you and before I came on full time, seeing how we kind of look at things, you know, how similarly or the types of things that interest you, I think also are a draw to me, especially on this side of the ball. So glad to be back around a year later and to have this role. Also joining us today, my good friend, Nate Tyson, Nate, how you doing, bud?

I'm doing well. No, it's nice. I, as an offensive guy, I will broad stroke things when I talk defense. Yeah, yeah, but too high. Just bucket it. So it's nice to have a guy that actually uses the proper term. terms rather than my butchered, butcher language,

my spanglish version of defensive play calls that I've been doing for the last couple of years. I don't want to frame it as we're using Deonté on this conversation and as part of this discussion, but we're here to be used. We absolutely are. I love talking about the people. He'll ask me stuff about protection and then he'll use his terms and I'll ask him something about the coverage and I'll use my terms and it always takes us a sec go. Okay.

Translated. There's no Google translate. There's just my brain. It's fun that we maybe get to do this in an audio form as opposed to just us, our DMs and texts. Right, right, right. So what we're going to do today is we're just going to go one by one, just lesson by lesson, just things we picked up and we went back and watched some of these teams. I didn't want to put any constraints on which teams each of us would watch. I felt like the group that we landed on would be telling, the teams that you gravitated towards who you wanted to watch, what you picked up from them.

it would say a lot about us and a lot about where defensive football is in the NFL. So this is a very organic bit of study. And I think you guys will see where that led us individually. Dei, since you are the man who knows what the hell he's talking about, we're going to start it off with you. When you went back and you started this, what is the first lesson principle idea that you came away with and when you went back to watch some of these teams?

I cannot wait. I wish I could see how many eyes are going to roll when I say this on the other end of this. But hitting the run still matters. That's what I'm starting with. You are just, you are, I love it. You are just, a more defensive football coach thing has never been said. It's so funny because people will rag me or Robert and say, oh, it's just an hour of two guys agreeing with each other.

So let's just get Diate in here to agree with us some more. I'm going the other way. I'm going the other way. You're going to start with run fits in a world where Patrick Mahomes and Justin Herber and Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers exist. Love this. Yes. And here's why, actually. And it's funny, I love that you bring that up because I think a lot of people think of it in terms of a binary or that there's some sort of dichotomy that exists.

But structurally, the reason why it matters is because one informs the next. And whatever you're trying to do on the back end, the cover guys, is going to inform how you want to fit the run ultimately. And I think a lot of this comes back to, and we can use the Chargers, I think, as a shining example of this in 2021. Everything they were doing schematically makes all the sense in world, but it doesn't matter if guys are getting blown off the football, right? A team like the Houston Texan should never be able to expose your defense in that way, but it happens, knowing how well, you know, how highly I think all of us think of a guy like Brandon Staley and what he wants to do defensively,

none of those ideas matter if somebody's averaging 6.2 yards per carry on you, right? Like, so that's, that's one of the reasons why I think it's really important to think of things in that, in those terms. And I like to think of everything in football, as big picture umbrella concepts first, and then you kind of color within, color inside the lines from there. So fitting the run still matters because it sets up everything else you want to do with the defense. You can't have one without the other.

All right, let's get into this because I think that I don't really disagree with you that it's obviously important, and the chargers are the best possible example. So here's what my tiny defensive brain and how I categorize it when it comes to fitting the run. You have teams that play odd fronts, even fronts, right? So we still have, if you look at the world of too high structure and the teams that are playing a lot of quarters, for example, on first down.

It's not teams that are in those out fronts from the Fangio Staley world. The team that played the most quarters on first down last season in the NFL was the Cleveland Browns, who are a four-down team, and that's how they play. And the Jets are another team that obviously you think of the connection there, Joe Woods came from San Francisco, that's where Robert Sal was. You have this team that was very Seattle cover three-based. they started playing a lot more quarters on early downs, and that's been a trend in the NFL. So those teams are four-down teams. Then you have a team like the Rams,

a team like the Chargers, who lives in an odd front. And then those teams, seeing a lot of those tight fronts on first down, where you've got five guys across. So they're two very distinct, in my mind, at least, types of front teams that still want to play with two high safeties on first down.

How is the way those teams fit the run different? And do you think one is particularly informative or useful as other teams try to start stealing some of these ideas moving forward. Well, I think both are really useful. Both the approaches are looking at it from either side of the coin are really useful in terms of understanding run fits. And philosophically, the coverage shell,

what you have to do with that kind of coverage shell in terms of fit in the run is similar. It's really just like the means in which you try to get there. So using a team like the Browns or, you know, we've mentioned the Saints, I think we talked about as a four down two high team at different points. Those types of teams, you have to run what are called defensive line games.

up front. So whether it's slants, stunts, twists, you have these read games. There are a lot of different things that you can do, whether it's with defensive tackles, with your edge defenders, whatever the case may be. And really, the goal is to try to get the ball outside of the B gap bubbles is what you'll hear, you know, coaches talk about. And those bubbles are basically any uncovered space between the tackles is where offense is usually like to attack in a run game. You know, when you hear Nate talk about like juicy run looks, it's usually either bubbles up front or lineback who was stepped out of the box, right? Like, that's, that's kind of what you're looking for. So in a too high world, a linebacker against an 11 personnel look or whether it's your nickel

or whatever the case may be, is going to be out of the box. So how do you change the math or try to reacquate the math with being light in the box? It's by doing things up front in order to fit the run again. So watching a team like, you know, D'Amico Ryan's in the 49ers. And I think that they kind of exist almost on an extreme in the way that they do it. There's no one like them. Yes. Yeah. Like it's still the, it's still both. and the other end, whatever at age. Yeah, they got everybody. Y, nine, like this guy's a whole yard outside the tight end and they're still fitting the run.

And a lot of that is because they preach, you know, a certain level of effort and dedication in terms of canceling those gaps on the interior, having, you know, Eric Armstead as, you know, basically the incredible Hulk, you know, as a three technique certainly helps. But using those edges, even when they're aligned wide to be able to get back inside and spill the ball out, that allows a guy like Fred Warner to be the most valuable. version of himself that he can be. You see the same thing with the Saints. You know, they're able to do the same thing with DeMario Davis. Guys are just crashing into these B gaps, crashing into A gaps, running these stunts and twists and games. And now your linebackers get to really play downhill when they need to be.

And they can be patient when it's needed. And that kind of informs taking away RPO's. You know, you can handle your outside zones. You're really kind of, you're dissuading offenses from doing the kind of cookie cutter things on first down that can keep you efficient. That can get you five and a half, you know, seven and a half. you know, seven and a half yards on average on first down. That's all the goal is, is to try to stay ahead of the sticks.

And if you're a four now, now that we're outside of that Tampa 2 world, we're asking linebackers to do everything in the world. So the through line there between the teams that are playing an on and even front, as I hear you say that is with the Niners and the Rams, the similarity that they share is those edge guys who are linebackers for the Rams and defense events for the Niners are very wide. Right. And the way that the Rams play with that tight front inside,

with the three guys inside the tackles and then two really wide edges. The Chargers, it's funny that when we thought about run defense and what they needed to do, their first thought was not what interior defensive players do we need. It's going to get Kali al-Mack so we can set those walls on the outside. Would you say that's the shared trait between those two dissimilar approaches that may be a little bit more width than guys that can hold that down, give you a better chance to play that way? Yeah, I mean, in today's NFL where everybody can kind of wake up out of the bed and install outside zone, you do need to have edge setters.

You know, you can't. It's hard to live in a world. You know, if that's the number one run you're seeing or the most effective and most likely to go for an explosive play in terms of run scheme, then yes, the number one priority is getting edge setters, which is why to your point, you see a Bosa in a nine technique. Kalil Mack is a nine technique, whether you're standing up or your hands in the dirt. That's where it starts, you know, for a lot of guys in terms of personnel. which is counterintuitive. That's not what you would think if you're thinking about stopping the run and fitting the run. And here's double teams. Yeah.

Angles and double teams. And then on top of that, what Nate is saying, and then on top of that, and this is a conundrum that you come up with that comes up when you start talking about how you want to handle these outside run schemes is what you want to do with the safeties. Well, the whole reason why you're playing too high is so that way on bootlegs, you're not spent with everybody up at the line of scrimmage when those overrouts come, you know, when those wide cross concepts come, when those dagger concepts come. top down.

Right. So if you want to take care of that, you need your safety to stay high. The only way to do that is to be able to win in that alley area with that edge player. And then with having linebackers that can range from playing out, you know, in space to being able to get back in the box or be able to play that gap and a half technique that you talk about on the edges or on the interior, right? Like that's the biggest thing is you want to protect your safeties. The guys who are up the spine of the defense. You want them to be able to play slow. And all that starts with being able to set a hard edge and really.

really deny those edge runs for an offense. Yeah. And that's what, I mean, it's such a great point. Like the two or the shared DNA for it, you're, you're bringing up a zone. And zone's going to make sense. That's what you want to stop. That's day one install for everybody. Some inside zone and outside zone.

Those are everybody in America, call it down up. Right. And so take that away is either take away cloth that the double team's going to happen for the offense. And that's center guard double team. I love that you brought up the bubble stuff because my dad's line is always you run at the bubble till it's still a burst run at run at the bubble run out the bubble and if you're taking away double team so either do that with having five guys across the board so everyone's singled up can't hey

we have everyone's solo we can only hit who's going to climb to the second level well we got to leave the back guy unblocked yada yada yada or as dante's saying the wide nines because that tight end or tackle that has to reach out there you're not getting to the outside the guy just by it's just like look man-to-man coverage and outside leverage it's hard to run outside it's just just physics and it's just how guys are line. So that makes a ton of sense. And this is kind of one of my half points was I kind of had fourish points just in case, depending on what Deiante said, kind of ad lib off of it. And one of them was if you want to play too high, you need guys that can take up two gaps. And that's just kind of related. It's related to what Deante is saying right here. And I brought the Chargers was my example. And the Eagles was my other one.

And you need guys up front. If you have one less guy in the box, like you're saying, you're too high, two guys are back. And one has to come up. You need guys that can steal a gap. So we've talked about before a gap and a half or two gaping as it's tradition on a three four you need guys to add to the math if we're taking one full human being out of the box and the run fit well everybody else has got to make it up either being a quarter extra body or a half extra body and that's where the jordan davis that's why we wanted the chargers and that's why you ended up with the eagles it's they both had the same issues last year they couldn't do shit against the run so it's that is where those body types are become more to fruition is just size size is still going to matter in the middle

And we think about this as a run-stopping look with that five-across look and then even with the wide-nines. But Deonti, correct me if I'm wrong, it's nice because you're not in a vulnerable position if you want to rush the passer. Those wide nine looks and those one-on-ones that you create with five across, if it's a pass and you want to get after it, you're in a position to stop the run, but you're not defanging yourself if you want to get after the quarterback. That is a perfect term to use for it. And when you hear people talk about stopping the run on the way to the quarterback, that is the idea. right there, right? Like, and in order to execute that, you need high level edge players. There's a reason why I Brandon Staley was intentional about I don't just want some talented guy.

I want a guy like Khalil Mack who has seen everything that you could possibly see as a nine technique and has dominated against it throughout his career, right? Because I want a guy, I don't have to teach. Hey, outside zone looks like this. A base block is like this. A scoop is like this. You know, getting reached looks like this. You know, instead of having to teach all that, No, I'm going to go get the guy who's maybe just as good, if not better than anybody else in the league at being a run defender on the edge and a 3-4-4. And that's going to be the guy. That's how you address that issue. This is where that blending of body types has started to come in.

The 3-4-4-4-3 body types, you know, it used to be very set. We're a 3-14. Yes. You know, da-da-da-da-da. And now you get this blending of types because they have to deal with everything now. They're asked to do all those things. And that's why Kaleel Mack is such a good example because he's one of the best overall run defenders slash pass. Defenders and it makes sense when you're attacking that way, might as well have the players

that can do both well. And it cracks me up honestly just looking at these trend lines, right? And I think I don't know if it was on this podcast, but I had pulled up one day just the old Tampa two teams, right? And I was looking at the size of the edges. It's like, whoa, 6-6, 278 pounds on the edge. That would never happen today because the premium on pass rush is just too high. You can't have a guy who runs a 4-840 on the edge.

you've got to be a different level of athlete in terms of bend or strength in order to do so. So that melding. Clayus Campbell's one in a million. Right. Exactly. He's inside now. Simi and he's considered a speed guy. And he is 6.5 to 70.

Right. Right. Right. And the day, he was a speed guy, quote unquote. Right. Exactly. So just like looking at how these worlds just change over time, I think is one of the more interesting things that comes up in football.

Yeah. And this talking point is going to be my point too. All right. Well, you gave us half a one, Nate. What's your first real one? My first real one is, and this is going into body types and this is, but this is more on the backend. And it's finding that third safety body type is more important than ever.

And Robert, we've hinted to this on the offensive side, but also the defensive side too. This is why the big nickels are more valid than ever is because when you look at it, it's, if you look at the top four teams last year and plays around with five or more DBs, it's really falls in line with the top defenses last year. It's the bills, the Saints, the Patriots, and the Cowboys. They had the most snaps for five or more DBs in the entire NFL. And Cowboys had curse. Saints had Gardner Johnson, Jenkins, Marcus Williams.

Patriots had their assortment of D.Bs. They've always done this. They're their original kind of blueprint of doing this. But they had Kyle Dugger now, who I think is going to emerge onto the scene. Little spoilers from my breakout player article. But, and then, you know, the bills, the bills are a little different. They had a smaller type. They had Terran Johnson.

playing the slot but he's still what 195-ish he'll put his face in there he puts his face in there physical he is fearless that is that fearless leads to the point you if you're gonna offenses are going to be lighter personnel defenses match with lighter personnel that that fucker better fit the rod from the slot like you can't have the was 175 nickels anymore

they they Kwan willians is like the exception to the rule and I was going to bring him up and he's willing to dive in there and saw people off I was literally talking to Jero Evaro yesterday and we were talking about this exact conversation about how you need bigger nickels and he's like well except for our guy yeah our our guy doesn't need to be bigger because he's in denver now k y williams he's like he doesn't he's fine he's the exception here because he's willing to play it he's like the one guy that a coach would go out of his way to mention in this conversation that's exactly

it because he's the and if you watch him he oh my god it he matches how the 49ers defense a line plays he's just you don't have to tell me about k y w i yeah yeah i know that's one year's running Are these your off-season favorite? No, but also, and talk about merging of body types, this is where, okay, the big nickel, but just all really looking at this more as intermediate defenders now. We used to just be linebackers, three guys, and then it used to be two linebackers and a nickel who was a smaller corner or a speedier corner, quicker corner. Now it's just more 215 to 25 body types.

And really watching the Rams at the end of last year, I know they battled some injuries and before Ernest Jones came back, came back. they had traven Howard playing linebacker he's 215 pounds what's a difference between him being 215 and a safety a guy wearing 24 well there's single digits now but guy wearing 24 that weighs 215 like it's just emerging it's a body type now just as receivers and smaller tight ends and bigger receivers are merging this is the defense defensive reflection of this and yeah i really just see that becoming more and more of a thing it's there's a surplus of this type of body i think in and this is I saw a college offenses 10, 15 years ago going more spread.

Wow, we got a lot of 180, 190 pound receivers. How can we use these guys? I think NFL defenses especially are going, man, we keep getting these big safeties who, you know, they're not, you know, they can do this well. They can do this well, but nothing great. They can't play in the post all the time. But what if they do everything well? There's a Swiss Army knife.

And I think more, there's a surplus of that. So I think teams are taking advantage of that with their looks. And I think that that has a big reason why a guy like Chuck Clark is still going to be a Baltimore. Despite of the fact that they probably, they have too many safeties to play. But you talk anytime John Harbaugh or Mike McDonald's in front of a microphone, what are they saying?

Like, we are going to get this guy on the football field because of that body type, that versatility, the smarts, you know, the ability to be a big nickel to play in the box and dime packages. He can play as a quarter safety if need to be. He can roll down and be a run support player in cover three if need be. You know, those types of body types are the premium. That is what you are after when you're talking about guys that aren't your edge rusher, your, you know, locked down corner, you know, and I always use basketball as an

analogy, but in a world where finding a real seven foot rim protector is hard, it probably makes more sense to go find a bunch of guys who are six, eight, and have a seven foot wingspan. And hey, if we switch everything, you can't get to the switch. That's what it is. That's exactly where we're at. Andre Aguadala, Sean Livingston, you know, the, oh, man, we have these six, six to six, eight guys. Screw, we just put them all in the court. which is finally best five.

I mean, it's just where football sports is going. It's the merging of all these ideals just kind of just happening in front of our eyes, which is really cool. I mean, even going back to what we use as Tampa Bay as an example, right, when the league is more run-based, then yeah, all your defensive linemen do need to be 270 plus because you can't afford to have some 240 pound lighten the ass guy on the edge getting attacked all day. When teams are in 21, 22 personnel, you know, 13 personnel and they're just running right at you. That does change things. now when slot receivers can be just as good as another team's number one and X, then yeah, you need guys who can handle the job. Right.

And they're big guys. They're not 175 pound guys that are just running, you know, speed outs or option routes on 30. Option route. There's no, there's no more Cole Beasley's like the last of a dying breed. Like that's how I've looked at them. I totally agree with that.

And this was my first one as well. It's just that that nickel player is changing. And what you, with the demands on that nickel player changing. and if you have somebody who can do all of this stuff, it's just a huge advantage. And if you're trying to trace the trajectory of it, right? What is the invogue offense in the league right now?

Shanahan. It's the Shanahan-Han-Bin-Valgum, whatever you want to call it, right? So, and now, Cooper Cup. Cooper Cup, as a result, becomes the prototype slot receiver. Cooper Cup is 6-2. Cooper Cup is one of the best run-blocking receivers, if not the best run-blocking receiver in the entire. league. They can use him in combo blocks

with tackles if they want to. You're seeing more and more of that. Alan Lazzard, Chris Godwin. And Godwin, it's funny because Ariens is in his own world here. Because he was doing this 15 years ago with Heinz's work. Right. Yeah. So he was doing this for anyone else was. But as more

teams are running, condensed formations where that slot is sitting right off of the tackle or the tight end and using somebody in there and running a ton of play action on early downs. And that guy is a blocker on that nickel and that guy is now 6-2, 6-3, 6-4, he's Alan Lazard size, that guy, by definition, has to get bigger.

And now that guy is getting bigger. So that to me is how I would trace it. And the reason that I landed on this point is I went back and I watched that Saints Bucks game from last year where the Saints just blanked them. Yep. And you watch Gardner Johnson in that game. And it's all the things he's asked to do. Yep.

It's a clinic. It's so simple to just say you need better nickel players. but I think there are two specific reasons that having that guy with the way the league is going is so important. He can play man coverage. The reason you don't put a third safety in that spot is because that guy has to play man coverage often

in certain coverage is even when it's zone on that guy in the slot and can't cover him. If you have somebody who can cover in man, all of your concerns are assuaged in that moment. And then the other side, so the Saints, if you're looking at, their coverages that are outliers. They were seventh in the NFL in man coverage on early downs this year,

about 31% of the time. They were seventh in the NFL or excuse me, eighth in the NFL and the amount of quarters they used on early downs. Quarters, when you are playing like that turns into man for that nickel defender. He's on an island. So if we're going to have- All quarters is not created equal.

If we're going to have more, because if you're playing match quarters and you have that nickel who's matching that number, number two receiver. That's man a decent amount of the time. So that guy's on an island. So if we're going to a world where teams are going to be playing more quarters on early downs, then that guy is going to be in de facto man coverage on whoever that slot receiver is a decent amount of the time. So finding somebody who is a really good run defender but can also cover whoever that is man to man is a cheat code. It's an incredible piece to have within your defense. Why think Jaywin-Ramsey got

bumped inside? And that's exactly. And that's exactly. Right. Why do you think the Ram? Like Marlon Humphrey is starting to play more inside us. Why are the Chargers going and drafting J.T. Woods? Exactly. Because they want to win Jones. Because he can cover man to man. So just finding that guy is just not only useful, but within the trends of the rest of the league.

Because if you're playing a single high defense, you can play that guy with such strong outside leverage because you have somebody to push that receiver to. You could push him in the free safety. Yep. But if you want to play too high, that guy. exists on an island now. So the demands on that player run support, and coverage have never been higher than they are right now as teams and offenses are putting more of a premium on who they put in

a slot more than they ever have before. So it's converging in this really cool way. No, but this is, but also you already mentioned it, Deonté, is the types of routes that those guys are running in the, you know, the death of the Cole Beasley's is when you get a bigger body type, they don't have to worry about getting broken off on a little, right, short route. the routes are more vertical.

So it just gives them more of a fighting chance. It really like, like Deonti, I know you played in that area. And what were you? Weren't you like a hybrid safety linebacker type? Yeah. So like you played in that.

And it's a little scary. You're out on Iowa like Robert says. And so if I know, okay, he's not going to break anything off before five. And think of what routes like Chris Godwin runs. It's like five yard unders and then vertical routes. And you know,

digs, bend or over routes, corners. it gives them a little more shot, these bigger bodies that probably have longer legs to keep up with these offensive guys that have longer legs. And they're going to attack more vertical. The corner you mentioned is perfect because that game, C.J.G, Tyler Johnson ran a corner route and he just stuck with it the entire time. Just like step for step. And then on back-to-back drives, he takes away overbreaking routes from Cambrate and O.J. Howard.

So he has the length to take away that, but he has the athleticism to take away a corner route from a Tyler Johnson or Chris Godwin. there aren't that many of those guys. No, right. Having one of them, though, is a huge, huge advantage. I mean, talking about them blitzing, too. Yes. That's the other thing they might have to do, blitzing off the slot.

Like, that's the other thing that these guys might have to do. And yeah, yeah, it's all that. It's funny, Nate, bringing up how scary it is. I can say as a coach, it's always, it's hilarious to me. Because every time we start talking about nickel packages and playing some of these match or bracket quarters. Yeah. I talked to them, I talked to the nickel got,

I'm like, you're playing a catch technique. And we work it all through Indies. And it's perfect. Keshe technique. Perfect. Perfect catch technique. Then you're getting a seven on seven in team. And it's like, okay, this guy is actually running right at me. Now you see the back pedal and come back. Yeah. I'm asking them. We're like, coach, man, he's running at me. I feel like I'm all alone out here. You know, everybody's kind of got a job that sucks in the defense. I always kind of install things with that. Like somebody has to take a job that sucks in order for the rest of the pieces to work.

Yep. And you know, when you talk about inside leverage nickels, the people with the jobs that suck are the outside corners, right? But if you have guys that can do that, now you start talking about, you know, in defensive turns, you say, We want to play nine on nine, right? If you're in the quarter's world, meaning both your outside corners can handle outside receivers. If we're playing nine on nine on nine and everything that's happening on the football field has to happen between the hashes, chances are you're going to be successful more often than not, right? And when you start talking about those outside leverage nickels, but now if you have three guys who can lock in and play tight coverage, now you're playing eight on eight.

And if I can play eight on eight defensively, that opens up a whole different world of possibilities for me in coverage, in pressures, how we fit the run, how we design these fronts. That's why the best version of the Rams looks the way it does. That's why the best version of the Saints looks the way it does. That's why the best version of the bills or the Packers looks the way that it does, right? Because you start constricting that space and you can see even great quarterbacks going like, man, press corner with Jair Alexander, I probably don't want that on the perimeter. Even if I like my receiver, I might not love that.

All right, press coverage on the boundary. Maybe I can get there, but it's about even. And they're playing tight coverage, maybe a bracket on my slot. What does that leave me with? I've got to be perfect as a quarterback or I've got to check the ball down. Defense is when when you put an offense into those types of conundrums to create those types of issues, defenses win in passing situations. That's a whole goal, right?

So that's kind of where I'm at too. And he actually kind of jumped on one of the points I was going to make, which was that inside leverage versus outside leverage as a nickel matters. And it changes the math for you defensively when you have a guy that can actually play outside leverage, be a true third corner on the field. and it really constricts the field in the passing game. That's a really big thing right now. Explain why it's harder to play outside leverage

and it is to play inside leverage and why only a certain amount of guys can do that. So it comes back to what Nate was saying, right, which is basically that, and this comes back into defensive spacing. So if I'm playing outside leverage on a slot as a nickel, that means that the corner is the corner on my side is basically non-existent, right?

Like he's got to play just about man-to-man coverage. You can create some rules or maybe you can drop, you know, a drag route or something like that. But for the most part, they're locked in playing, you know, straight man everywhere he goes, types of coverages. Well, now for me as the nickel, that basically turns me into the number one corner de facto, right? We're playing 10 on 10 right now.

So I have to deal with a slot receiver who more often than not is going to be off the ball and has a two-way go and can line up. He's a motion threat. You know, you can use him in all these different kinds of ways. He'll be off the ball too. Exactly. So I can't press him in the same way. I, as Chauncey Gardner Johnson, can't press my guy the same way that Marshawn Latimore can, right?

He can disrupt timing on plays in a way that I cannot. Now, the benefit I have is that I almost have like a cover two safety over the top of me, right, if we're playing quarters. That can be a help, but only if I get something vertical. So for a lot of this, the underneath stuff that we're talking about, you know, I've heard slot option a thousand times, whether it's from Nate or Seth, my old coworker, heard it on this show. those are some difficult scenarios to be in when you know that a route can come where you have a leverage disadvantage, right? Where a guy, if he's running an overrout, he's running away from you, right? It's hard to cover those.

If it's a drag route, it's quick and he's running away from your leverage. It's hard to cover those. Dig route, same thing. So you have to be a true kind of lockdown corner, a guy who can win your matchups one-on-one on those underneath things. And if you can do that, again, back to what we're talking about on the edge with three, four players and fit in the run. What that does, it gives your safety a bunch of relationships. leave. So now when you get some of these designer shot plays, whether it's the Packers and you get an overrout here and, you know, a post dig right here and then you get the big home run post coming

over the top, you need a safety that can stay high enough and not get eaten up by the fact that I can't really trust my nickel. So I got to come out the roof to steal this dig. Oh, now one on one is Devonté Adams on a post, you know, or as Marcus Faudes Scantling against our third or fourth best defensive back on this home run post, right? Those are situations you don't want. in middle of field open coverages. So you need that slot defender to really be able to handle everything underneath from that guy. And again, it just adds layering. It's all layering in coverage, layering in the run fit.

That's what all this stuff comes back to at the end of the day. It's math. I've always looked at outside as like a plane and the inside's like a helicopter. Right. Planes are going a straight line, you know, up down, straight line. Helicopter go off down, left, right, short, long. Like that's how kind of how you look at it. Plains on the outside, helicopter in the middle.

and probably a lot harder to control as a defender. Nate, what's your next one, bud? Oh, my next one. I am going with you don't have to blitz, but you better be good at it when you rush four. And the top five teams, the top five defenses, this is kind of like a given, or I mean,

bring up two like a little lists here. Top five defenses by DVOA, bills, Cowboys, Saints, Patriots, Rams, and it's Cardinals for an Irish Colts. Top five defenses when rushing four, bills, Patriots, Cowboys, Bucks and Saints. And it's it's kind of sounds like oh no shit.

It's great to like have a good defense when you're rushing four. But we just spend a lot of time talking about two high defenses. I would say safer defenses, but more bend, but don't break defenses. It's more just, hey, what the quarterback? Check it down. Make it work. Make it hard to get these explosive plays. Well, if you're only going to rush four, you better be freaking good at it.

And it's and this is kind of like a kind of a two-pointer is that also those teams, that do blitz don't be predictable. And so I'm just going to kind of merge my two points here. You can blitz. Like it's not like you can't blitz with these teams. The Cowboys were one of the heaviest blitz teams. The thing with that is, is you can't be predictable. If I'm an offensive coach and defensive coach

are the same way on the opposite side, I look at first and second down, run downs, and I look at passing downs, third and fourth down. And then there's other breakdowns from that. But if I look at you first and second down and you're never blitzing and you're only blitzing on third and fourth down, it's a little easier on my quarterback. It's a little easier on my offense aligned.

Hey, okay, we're good, we're good. We don't, they barely bring anything up for a second. Okay, third down, ears up, ears up. We know this shit's coming. We know something's coming. But if you kind of, you know, Bob and weave, throw some punches, change up the punches, change up the pitches like a pitcher, rather than just pounding away to the fastball,

it can make it really hard on quarterbacks and offensive line. You just brought up the Saints. And I love that, that Staten stat that you brought up, Robert, all the different type of coverages you run. a quarterback, if I know what you're sitting in every single down, you better have good players. That's the Seahawks Legion of Boom line to think. We just have studs so we can just run cover three and man every single play.

If I don't have that or if I just want to, you know, screw over the quarterback. I was about to say something else. Screw over the quarterback. Well, I got to change up the look. I got to change up the picture. We've gotten on defenses for being static. This is the same.

This is like just a different version of that. This is defense is not being static. If you got to change up that picture on the quarterback, It's if I look and I go, man, that safety is inside the left hat or that boundary safety is inside the hash, man. Or, oh, man, they're pressed on the outside, both up. Man, I'm good. They're not disguising that. But also, you go into cover two causes quarterbacks to have that extra and then figuring it all out.

And then you got the freaks that can just do it right away. And they like just that's what that's another reason why I like Trevor Lawrence because he does that stuff. But yes. The other stat, like this is the last one I'll bring with this is those defenses that I brought up by DVOA, they're ranking blitz differential. that is blitzes on first and second down compared to blitzes on third and fourth down. So how heavy or how different they were. None of them were in the top 10.

In fact, all of them were on the bottom half, except for the Cowboys. The bills, like, they don't change how they look on first and second down, how they change on third and fourth down. They're making it hard on offenses because they're not being predictable. They're throwing the same dice rolls on every down. And as teams pass the ball more,

and every down becomes more of a passing down, just without being predictable. And that's what they're doing. If you just go, the two teams are heaviest differential were the lines and the jets. They went from not blitzing at all on first and second down to blitzing a ton on third and fourth down. And it makes it easy on offenses because you know when your, your alarm bells have to start going. So really it's just not being predictable. And if you want to bring four, you better be fucking good at it.

And that's just a overall way around it. Yep. There's no way I'm around it. It's actually, it's funny. The team that I think about when you mentioned like, oh, we know on third down that you're coming with it, right? that you're coming pressure and you're not really doing that on other downs. No, I think about a lot with that. It's last season with the Steelers, right?

Where it's like, I can close my eyes. I know exactly what the looks going to be on first down. I know exactly what the looks going to be on third down. And that's exactly how offense has treated them as well. And it's great when Joe Hayden is prime Joe Hayden. Yeah. You know, when you have Mike Hilton as your blitzing slot corner, you know, when all the pieces fit together perfectly and you know you have, you know,

T.J. Watt plus another pass rusher. That's a problem. All of that is great. But the second that those things, to dissipate. You get a little bit of roster attrition, things like that. All of a sudden, that scheme starts to fall off the map. Now, on the flip side, you have Dan Quinn, another guy. I can close my eyes and I can tell you, third and five, they're in a bare front. They're playing cover one. You might get a twist, but they're bringing five and they're playing man. And it looks great with

them because it's Michael Parsons, DeMaris Lawrence and Randy Gregory getting after the quarterback last year. You know, now it doesn't matter, you know, the fact that maybe Jordan Lewis was their best pure coverage guy of their corners. You know, it doesn't matter because you're getting home in 2.3 seconds more times anyways. Quarterbacks, Matt, the timing changes when their dials are changed differently. They do those pressures. I have the five one-on-ones. And then the other ones are, no, we're going to squeeze every throw with the bodies in

the past coverage. And it's just like we said, everything's tied together. And then, you know, on the flip side, so if you're a four-man pass rush team and you don't really get home a bunch. So I think about like the Packers, right, who are able to get decent pressure on quarterbacks, but a lot of that is like late in the down. And why is that? because you're playing so great in coverage that a big guy like Preston Smith can work as a power rusher.

A big guy like Roshan Gary can work as a power rusher. It doesn't hurt that you have Kenny Clark on, who is not maybe the most ideal interior pass rush guy because of how big he is. You can just crush pockets, crush pockets, and quarterbacks are going, okay, they're playing quarter quarter quarter half. But it's not just quarter quarter half. It's quarter quarter half of Jair Alexander and, you know, Eric Stokes. And you got Adrian Amos and Darryl Savage back in. Yep. I don't have a whole lot of options.

here. So I'm patting the ball. And by timing, better be freaking perfect. On point. I have to be on point the whole way. And then once I think I have a window, oh, my guard is in my lap. Yep. You know, I got a bail or I can't get to the platform I want to to throw this dig. I can't get to this curl route that open late. Right. So those, that's just the kind of, again, when we talk about layering or, you know, these cascading effects that happen defensively, that's a lot of it. Right. If you don't have the four that can just get home on speed or get quick pressure, that is what I think necessitates playing more of these split safety coverages.

If you can get home up front, you know, if you're a Gus Bradley in Las Vegas last year and your two edge rushers at their best are generating pressure like this, hey, I can play cover three and not give up a whole bunch of explosive passes because we're getting home. And then you get teams like the chiefs, you know, you get a patch of my home site that's like, man, I can kill cover three on my sleep. And then it doesn't matter, right? And then it doesn't matter. And now you're having conversations of, well, is this a long lasting defense still?

Those are the types of, I guess that's what's on the scales, right? Is how effective you are at getting home if you really want to rush four versus if you're blitzing or sending five, you've got to get there and you've got to have guys that can play Titan coverage. Yep. Yep. And that's the tie in together. And that's where corners come. This also comes in effect. Sorry, Robert, real quick.

It's just that if you're a rushing four, this is changing up the looks like you brought up in your guys. The first point is we got a edginess. We got to create games. That's how, that's your version of blitzing, quote, unquote, is bringing those games. And as offenses with two high defenses, there's more menu to attack in the run game. You don't just have to run outside zone against it. You can run counter. You can run weak side zone.

You can run one back power out of those types of looks. And if I'm creating edginess with the games, that stuff can really mess up gap scheme stuff that offenses want to run. Like when you change all those guys around. So it's all, I want to say chicken in the egg, but it's all one flat circle. All this stuff is just tied in together. how offense is attack it, how defense is attacked back, and the personnel you can use. The one thing I'll say, what you mentioned about Dan Quinn and the Cowboys, DeLate, when I was digging through some of the numbers, it was interesting to me because the Cowboys

on third down, I believe have maybe like, they have the ninth highest man coverage right in the league on third down. They were second in the league on first down. They played by far, they played 20 more snaps of cover one last year than any other team in the NFL on first down. So they're playing more man that you typically expect on first down. So there's more, it looks like Nate referred to. it, it looks more of the same.

It's harder to distinguish between those two looks based on first down, second down situation. The team that talking about, if you're going to blitz, you have to be a little bit unpredictable and it has to be, because if you're going to make yourself vulnerable in those situations, I didn't have anything that really landed on with the dolphins because they're so weird. They are weird. Brian Flores is a one-of-one type of play caller defensively. I'm fascinated, though, by the ways they were using Brandon Jones and Javon Holland last year as past rushers.

So they, the dolphins last season, they had the second most blitzes in the league. So this isn't necessarily shocking in that way. But blitzes with six defensive backs on the field. They had 103 of them. No one else in the league had more than 70. Because nobody else gets in a dime. Yeah. Bring pressure.

No. They're like one of one great out of it. Yeah. It's just, it's so interesting to watch the way they get after the quarterback. Because when I think of blitzing teams for the most part, I'm thinking of team sending linebackers. I'm thinking of Devin White just crashing through the A gap. Those safeties a lot of the time are coming off the edge. And you don't know which one is coming and they're all lined up at the line of scrimmage and these weird, weird looks. So I don't

know if there's necessarily one crystallized lesson to take away from the way they play. But if you're going to live in that pressure-heavy world, having just a ton of the same body type of guys and any of them could come at any time, to me feels like a more reliable way to live that way. You got to make a dice roll, not a coin flip. That's how I've, I've, I've, looked at you don't make it a coin flip where it's a 50-50 you don't make it rock paper scissors where it's one three choices make it one of six and you're making that you're just trying to cause hesitation it's the human element of all this yeah what's your next one here well um before before i get to that i have one more example i want to use to kind of bounce off in nate's last point i think

another perfect example of what he's talking about was patrick graham and the giant slash now last off season i remember robert and nate you guys were kind of talking about how he was using like drop eight coverages in 2020, right? Like he was using those more often than any other defensive coach, really. You know, and a lot of like Tampa 2 when using a defensive tackle as a spy, you know, or some like late rusher type of deal. And then this last year, I think he started off the year trying to do a lot of the same things.

And he was realizing we're not affecting quarterbacks. And we cannot, we're not creating enough, enough confusion with our coverage shell to get off the field on third down or to get ourselves into advantageous. We know it's covered two every time. Exactly. So what you started to see as the year went up, and this is while I was working at Pro Football Focus, it was something I was tracking that cover zero percentage kept climbing.

Week over week, over week, over week, over week. Turn that dial up. And what that tells you to Nate's point is like, look, the idea of just allowing a quarterback to pat the ball. I don't care how good you are in coverage. Letting a quarterback just pat the ball with no disruption, either in coverage or in the past rush is a great way to die on defense. It's suicide.

You can't do it. You just can't do it. And that's a defense that had some guys that I like. I like Xavier McKinney. I obviously love Leonard Williams. I like James Bradbury. You know, I like some of the guys that they have. It just didn't matter. And what he realizes the coach is that if we don't have the threat of real pressure, something that a quarterback has to actually be concerned about, something that an offensive coordinator actually has to make play calls with that in mind, I can't live in a world where I'm just saying, hey, this is on a blackboard, this looks great. This is covered. This is covered. We can fit the run with this. we can do this, we can do that.

All that is nice until you're playing up against other talented people. And then you start seeing that evolution, right? And I think they ended up almost right at the midway point in Blitzrate last year, which is something that they were not doing the year prior. So I think that that kind of speaks to just how you have to negotiate that thin line between playing more for coverage and playing to get home or affecting the quarterback. Yeah. No, it's funny.

I was one of my first theories when we were prepping for the show was to drop eight coverages. bump up last year. It didn't, sadly, but it's about the same. But man, I was so ready to never know. People might watch that second half of that Bengals Chiefs game in the UFC championship and go, hey, this might be not the worst thing in the world. Remember we talked when you're coaching, or you still do, but you're talking about, I think, an error rate team or something. You're like, man, this quick game stuff. And it was drop eight. It was drop eight, put more arms in the lane. It's like a two-three zone. Like just put more. If they're not, especially when an offense is not ready for that. If you're a quarterback and you're like, okay, here comes four. Okay, it looks like

single high and you guys go drop eight cover two and it's quick game. It's like, all right, where the hell do I go with this? Like, hopefully someone could come open. So I was hoping that there might be more drop eight stuff. So I'm glad you, glad you mentioned it a little bit. So I guess my last point is almost like an amalgamation of a lot of the stuff that we talked about, which is it like, it's still all about personnel at the end of the day. And I know like a lot of this stuff can almost sound reductive, but that's really what defensive football is about. So whether it's what we've discussed in terms of bigger bodies playing in the slot, whether it's what we've discussed in terms of your edge play and how that affects what you can do in terms of fit in the run and handle in the

pass, you know, whether it's sending pressure, whatever the case may be, you have to lean into having your best 11 on the field as often as you can. And it's been, you know, with the Rams, it was Jail and Ramsey playing inside so you can get the best out of your nickel package, right? It's just, it's not good enough to just say, hey, Darius Swones is our smallest guy. So he's, you know, by default, going to play inside. That's not the best use with the rest of their unit, right? Whether it's a charger is going to get J.T. Woods and adding the talent that they can, Sir Derwin can play closer to the line of scrimmage. That allows them to be closer to what they want to be, you know, as a defense. We've talked about it with the Saints. I think that the Ravens go in and getting their defensive

backs healthy and then adding to their safety room, adding to their corner's room. I think that this will help a guy like Odape Owe, right, who needs to develop as a pass rusher. And we've got all the tools behind you now so that way you can be maximized as a pass rusher. The personnel matters in terms of maximizing what you're going to get out of these guys. That's really the biggest thing that I walk away with more often than not. Jimmy's and Joe's all day long. Not X's the nose.

No, I agree with that. It's offenses are in the same way. Sorry, Robert, I feel like you haven't talked in a while. I'm good, man. I'm the host of this show. You guys let it right. Offenses, it's, and this is what teams are getting better and better at, is getting your best five skills guys out there. And this is another basketball analogy, getting your best five out there.

Whatever the lineup is, let's make it work. What's the defense we can play with that? Yada yada. I'm talking about basketball. But same with NFL defenses. All right. Well, let's get our best 11 out there. Our best four pass rushers or five if we want to do that.

And our best, you know, six cover guys or seven cover guys. So kind of makes sense. And it's kind of talking, it really is. I think you really summed it up nicely because it is a summary of what, we've talked about, the merging of defense a line kind of spots and position types and what they're asked to do. And same with the DBs and linebackers. This is just a continuation of that. It's getting the best 11 out there. And what's the defense we can play to have our best 11 out there? And that's where this is all coming to a head right now. And off of what Nate was saying earlier, and this happened on

the offensive thing, the best, the reason why, you know, there are a lot of reasons, but one of the reasons that I recognize is why we have the offensive explosions that we get. Um, do you're over a year now. It's because offenses can run their entire playbook out of any personnel packages that they have, right? Defenses were behind in that way. You can speak to this. Nate, obviously, haven't been, you know, having a dad that's worked at the pro level, you working at the pro level yourself, the amount of time you spend analyzing the game on the defensive end, and you can still see this in some old playbooks. The base stuff does not exist in any other piece of the playbook except for in base personnel. Their nickel stuff is your

nickel stuff. Your dime stuff is your dime stuff. Hey, well, we've got. got this many pass rushers on the field, this is what we do. When we got a specific type of linebacker on the field, this is what we do. And what I think we're seeing now, you know, and in three, four, I think has a lot to do with this because it does kind of lend to some positional versatility. Yeah. It's coaches that are more invested in. We want to be able to do whatever our best call is in base. Why would we not want to run that in nickel if we're going to see something that we would typically address in base and they have 11 personnel on the field? It will be done. If playing quarters will be your best answer to whatever run scheme you're getting in 12 personnel and they're doing it out of 11, you need your nickel package to be able to do the same thing to handle it.

Is that way you don't end up in situations where you're playing base and teams are just, you know, just reaming you up and down the field. That's how the Rams are able to, you know, generate so much offense with Jared Gough, right? Is you create those conundrons on defense like, hey, we get into 11 personnel. You're in nickel and we know that all you do in nickel is cover one. Oh, well, we're going to motion you to death then. All you do in this is this. And we give you motion here. You're going to have to bump this way.

You've got to rotate this way. We're going to run away from the rotation every time. If you try to stay static, we're going to hit you with play action. We can hit you with screens if you stay static or try to get depth in soft zone coverage. Right. So you cannot create simple answers like that offensively. So the basis of what I'm saying in personnel mattering is kind of rooted in that. Right.

Like whatever your best deal is defensively, you have to be able to get to that in every personnel packaging that you have the same way that a team like the Buccaneers can run. a duo no matter which 11 players are on the field. You need to be able to run whatever you need to. You know, weeks out rotation cover three to stop it. If that's how you want to go about it, you got to be able to do that in base. You got to be able to do that and you got to be able to do that in dime. And that's going to allow you to make sure that you have the guys you need to to cover the

explosive passes to cover the play action game to deal with the RPOs. That's exactly. That's where the NFL is at. And I think of, you know, the chiefs and the struggles that they had moving the ball was once teams figured out like, hey, we just run our best stuff. Even when they've got, if we treat this like 10 personnel, because that's what it is, it's 10 personnel. We run our 10 personnel answers out of whatever personnel packaging, our best personnel packaging

it is. Hey, we can handle this a little bit easier. It's not as painful, you know, instead of trying to fit square pegs in around holes, right? It's to me, I think it's a big deal. Yes. It's who's dictating the game. And I think that, I mean, I've heard McVeigh say this. And I think this is a common refrain.

Who's got the pen last is like a huge, huge thing. And for so long, especially, I'd say in that era where we've had this group of offensive coaches with McVeigh and LaFleur and Shannonhan and some of those guys, you know Arthur Smith and what he was doing in Tennessee where you have these guys who are younger, innovative, creative and like, I don't care what the rules are. Yeah. I'm going to do, I'm going to play however is best for me to play. And I think that being so willing to drop all the walls down offensively made offensive football so much more interesting. and effective all across the sport. And I think defense is saying, we are going to drop the exact same walls so you're no longer dictating the game to us is a huge, huge step forward.

And that's what you're seeing. And personnel is how that exists. Because you need now that versatile, we can do this in any situation group of defensive backs on the field at the same time. And I think that's where the Rams were pushing things forward in a way that people didn't really understand. It wasn't necessarily too high shells and coverage structures and contours and all this shit.

Right. It was, we have all these different kinds of players that give us different kinds of answers. Yep. And right. I mean, the offensive version of that, it was Cooper Cup, you know, not the offense version, but this version of it right now, the Rams are able to attack basically of two tight end looks, but being in three receivers, but being an 11 personnel, that's what Cup does.

He's that hybrid tight end, basically. And when you're trying to attack that way, when we've talked about, that's the advantage of being in 12 personnel is you make the defense declare. what their intent is. If you have true blocking tight ends, and you're not Mike Gisicki or Kelsey. And we go 12 personnel and the defense matches with base. Okay.

Well, we know we're going to probably go to throw the ball because they're not going to bring some funky pressure. You know, like you said, the base install is a lot smaller than all the some install now and the NFL and just some football in general. And the same thing. Now it's just the defenses,

like you said, having to pan again. It just cracked me up because the, I remember when I was with the Raiders, is my second year. There was a big deal that they named the linebacker's spot. It didn't matter who was playing there, the dimebacker. It could have been a big body, but they're just making the terminology easier.

They don't have to change what the call is now because it's just the same spot. You know, it's just the same guy at the spot. It doesn't matter what body type is. And I just laugh because offenses, we have what we usually call the F, which is the adjuster. And that could be the fullback, the second tight end or the third receiver. And so if I go, if I'm in double right, the F is in the left slot. doesn't matter which body type it is.

I don't call them an H. It's been that way for 10 years. But it's so funny. It took defense is so long. It took defense as like a decade, two decades ago. Man, we should do the same thing. We should call it the star. You know?

And no matter who's there, it's the same spot. And it's just funny that, you know, it takes some time sometimes for these. You know, the deep defense of guys, we are a little bit more precious about our thing. We're hoarders. Okay. Everything stays in its place for a reason. This is my take it too. I don't want to move my coffee cup two inches to the right.

No, I can't keep it there every day. Oroacker was doing Tampa too. Brooks was doing Tampa too. And you're goddamnic. You're doing Tampa too. Absolutely. All right, Nate, do you have one more?

I don't. I blew my load. All right. So I have one more. And I have one more. We were talking a little bit before the show about just these quarterbacks who are such a conundrum because if you blitz them, you're fucked. And if you don't, you're fucked.

Yep. So now what is the answer here? And when I was, I went back and I watched the Saints a decent amount and then a couple other teams that I thought a lot of the stuff that Titans did last year was really interesting. They finished eighth and weighted defensive DVA. Yeah. So I was watching the Saints and what they do on third down. Sending four, but not understanding where those four guys are coming from and who they're going to be.

It sounds like a simple idea, but they did it more than any other team in the league last year. DeMario Davis had 57 pass rush naps last year on four-man rushes, which was the most by. far of any off-ball linebacker in the NFL. Quanta Alexandra was second. So they had the top two guys. So just that plan of, we're going to send four guys, but you don't know which guys it's going to be.

And the Saints will drop out a defensive end, or they drop out one of the linebackers. So you're not leveraging yourself with the bodies that you have in coverage, and you're still creating an uncertain picture for the quarterback and for the offensive line. It just feels like more and more teams should lean into that, and more and more teams might. And the Titans do it a ton.

They did it almost, I think, more than almost any other team in the league last year. The Falcons also did it a lot. But the Titans, you don't know who's coming. Elijah Molden had 23 of these situations last year, where he blitzed, but the Titans only brought four. Most by far of any DB in the league, he only started 12 games. So he only had a full-time role in like 12 games. So that's essentially twice a game. He did this, where he's blitzing, but it's not some huge pressure look.

It's just a four-man rush where you're bringing. a safety. They do it with David Long a decent amount. So the more and more teams saying, we're going to make the offensive line uncertain and uneasy, but we're not going to leverage ourselves and make ourselves vulnerable in coverage. It feels like that might be

a decent answer to the problem that you're posing there, Deontze. We can't blitz them, but we need to do something to make them a little bit uncomfortable. And the Saints do that better than anybody, and it just feels like they're in a unique spot to do it because Davis is such a unicorn at that position.

he's so, so good. But it just feels like that is a solid answer for some of these teams looking for one. Yeah. And this is where, this is where coming off the, just also talking about like changing up the look on the quarterback and offense line. That's exactly what this is. I can run a cover two, a hundred snaps. I'm just making up cover two, whatever, just a coverage. But if I change up who's going where, that quarterback also is looking at the backside safety.

And that backside safety is coming up. And it's like, whoa, what was that? Spagnolo. Yep. The spag looks. Yeah. Or, you know,

the game, I feel like it's such a game that's going to be burning my brain. Is that week one, Stilers versus the Bills? Yeah. That game is going to be burned into my brain because it's just all the simulated pressures

that the Steelers brought that game. And all they were doing was bringing the slot and dropping an end. And that's all, it was NCAA blitz. You know, Sam, Mike, we're just, we're just only bringing one instead of two now.

That's all they're doing now. And it messes with you. It messes because now the offensive. has to treat it like a pressure, even if there's four in there or the running back has to treat it like a pressure. And he now can't get out. Right. And if you're having seven in coverage and now we only have four guys running a route, that's a disadvantage. Somebody's getting wasted. Someone's getting wasted. And that is, and I've just tied into offensive play, the goal of protection always and just if you ever want to learn protection rules, the goal of protection always is to get the

running back out or the tight end out if he's a protection. Never waste them and never get them on a big body. So now that's what that does. It makes a wasted guy. He doesn't get out. Quarterback has to assess what the picture is. And this all ties in two with all the safety stuff and rotating. And I mentioned this before. But this is the defensive version of shifting and motioning. This is their version of it. That's now they have a star. That's the matching the F, you know, the adjuster basically. This is the defensive version of shifting and motioning. Moving these safeties back and forth and running simulate pressures so the quarterback doesn't know where it's going, just like how defenses with shifts and motions go.

Oh, there's a jet motion. Oh, okay, straight. Left, left, left, left. You know, you have to make that call at the last second. This is the offensive version of doing that. The Saints ran a pressure against the bucks in that game. It was third and four. And they had Davis walk down as the only linebacker in the B gap on the left, on the

offense's right side the defense's left. And they had Cam Jordan as the defensive end of that side. He was the only defensive linemen. They had three defensive linemen to the other side. So they had that side overloaded. Davis comes, but Jordan, drops out onto the linebacker. So the right tackle and the right guard are blocking to Mario Davis.

Two guys blocking tomorrow. Wasted a guy under protection. Yep. On the other side, the left tackle is so concerned because there are three guys to that side and he knows a game is coming. He's really slow to get out of his stance. Davenport just roast him around the edge, sack. It's not crazy shit.

No. You're lying in four defensive linemen up on the field at the same time, but you're overloading one side. You're bringing a linebacker and dropping a defensive end, so you're not vulnerable. to any sort of past coverage. You have seven guys in coverage and the defense event's coming on a linebacker, which it's Leonard Fernette.

You feel okay doing that. Right. And you have an offensive lineman wasted. It just, again, these aren't the craziest answers to this problem, but the Saints just consistently were doing stuff like that and putting themselves in great spots. We can elevate the stakes.

I mean, everything after that touchdown to T. Higgins in the Super Bowl was Rahim Morris saying, you know what? Forget everything else we've done. We're going back to our fastball, which is in every best. us in a situation we can get.

We're going to create some kind of bear-esque look. To your point, it looked exactly like what you described, Robert, with Ernest Jones, walked up over a guard. You've overloaded one side. You got your bet. You got Von Miller, your best pass rusher on the same side as Ernest Jones. And now we can just play games with you.

You've got to make a decision. Hey, we kind of need to slide the protection to Aaron Donald, but we can't just leave our back on Ernest Jones if he's blitzing from the line of scrimmage. That's going to make our quarterback hot. If our quarterback's hot, we can't get the ball to Jamar, Chas, and T. Higgins down the field, that burns the entire ethos of this offense.

And you just saw, and that's exactly how they were able to just assault the bengals, just snap after snap after snap. And the pressure really got to be unbearable for Joe Burrow, the longer that that game went on. I think about that all the time. You can go to the, I believe there was a Thursday night game between the dolphins and the Ravens, right? And what that first half was, was Brian Flores saying, hey, cover zero, cover zero, cover zero. And now when stop hit yourself. Exactly.

And now when you've got everybody, everybody that's in Ravens colors on high alert for that, now when it's only bringing four, it still looks like cover zero in terms of free rushers because everybody from tackle to tackle is saying, okay, it might be him, but it could be him. It might be this guy in front of me, but I might get some late looper on some defensive line game. I have to be on alert for everything. I can't block anything under those conditions, right? So you create these, you create these scenarios where it's, A, it's an eight point. you can keep the back end, you can keep a tight in and protection. Guys got a chip. Well, if I'm working five against three out in the route or six, you know,

excuse me, six or seven against three out in the route, I'm going to win more often than not. You know, it's hard to win in those scenarios. And that's the goal defensively is numbers advantages, numbers advantages, numbers advantages, in the run game, I want to have one more than you can block. In the past game, I want to have one more in the coverage distribution than you have out in the route, if not two. And the more of the more of a numbers advantage I get, the more strain it puts

on your offense to really be efficient and it almost takes explosiveness off the table because what you want to get to be explosive is in the run game, it's we've got one more than you've got at the point of attack. In the passing game, it's we've got a one-on-one and you've got no help, right? Like that's where you get more often than not those explosive plays on offense. And that's a great way to go about eliminating it, both in protection and in coverage. So all these things that we've talked about all kind of mixes together. And I think that we kind of painted a clear picture of who the best defenses in the NFL are going

to be next year based off of this, right? The teams that can execute this are the ones that are contenders. That's just kind of what it is. It's funny, isn't it? I know. It was fun, like, watching different stats. I was like, okay, I'm going to have a theory about this. And it just, like, stayed like, oh, it's the same top five or same five of the top seven.

You know, like a lot of these things, they all add up. They all add up. Awesome. Well, that's all we got. We're going to do the same thing on offense next week. We'll go back and watch some of the offenses. The three of us are. We're going to find some lessons that we think are particularly telling.

This is a blast. Deante, thank you for making us sound much, much smarter than we would without your hair. I appreciate you guys having me. Bring it to the light side with the offense next week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll get the crash course and protection. Last next week. Yeah, absolutely.

All right, guys, really appreciate you listening. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. We really appreciate that. Please subscribe to The Athletic. Theathletic.com slash football. So Deonté wrote about five boomer bust defenses today, right, Deontae? That's correct. That's correct.

So if you want to yell at me, please go ahead. So please go check that out. That is where you can read both Deante and Nate all the time. So please do that if you do not have a subscription. We will be back on Tuesday with our next mailbag. Until then, enjoy your weekend. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.