The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Lessons learned from the Chiefs, Bengals, Eagles and 49ers

Episode Date: January 25, 2023

We're down to four teams playing football this season. So, what can we learn about how to succeed in the NFL from the Chiefs, Bengals, Eagles and 49ers? ESPN's Bill Barnwell joins Robert Mays and Nate Tice to answer that question on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Nate on Twitter: @Nate_TiceFollow Bill on Twitter: @billbarnwellSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeToday's episode is brought to you by...Peloton: Try Peloton risk free with a 30-Day Home Trial, New Members only at onepeloton.com/home-trialBetter Help: Visit betterhelp.com/mays today to get 10% off your first month of online therapyPenrose Hill: Go to tryfirstleaf.com/mays to get your first 6 bottles for $39.95 plus free shippingPhilo: Sign up today at philo.tv and use promo code MAYS to get 50% off your first monthRoman: To get ready, Roman Ready, for better sex this Valentine’s Day. Go to ro.co/athletic today to get 20% off your entire first order. Place before February 8th for guaranteed shipping in time.Tommy John: Get 20% off your first purchase at tommyjohn.com/athletic right now for Valentine’s Day!4:09 Build around a money-saving QB8:22 Positionless offense14:22 The necessity of elite weaponry20:39 Offensive line coaches are the new market inefficiency28:24 Attacking defenses with multiple personnel groupings36:38 The run game is back, baby!43:07 Take advantage of desperate teams54:36 Diversity vs. the pass57:59 Smart, veteran DBs are also the new market inefficiency63:37 February's FA market vs. August's FA market68:29 Don't be afraid to throw resources at your defensive line Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. I like doing this every year in some way, shape, or form. I think I used to write it, and then we've done podcasts about it. We did one last year. Now that we've had the final four teams in the NFL set,

I wanted to talk about the lessons that we can learn from what those final four teams look like, how they're constructed, what their coaching staffs look like, anything, anything about the way that they're. got here. What can we learn from it? And to help me do that today, I am thrilled to welcome two of my good friends. First of all, our good buddy, Nate Tice, Nate, how you doing, bud? I'm doing very well. Yeah, we'll see once the other guy comes on. The third man of this group, you know, the unknown third man that's going to leg drop macho man Randy Savage and turn heel on us. He's coming out. He started heel. There's no heel turn necessary for our next guest. True. Yeah, I might have to

I'm going to switch fake turn. I know because the other comparison, this was for Barnwell, I was going to say, spoilers, I was going to say, I'm the ex-pac of this group. So like that's where I really feel at home here. But no, I'm so excited. We did this last year. You mentioned it a couple weeks ago, you're like, hey, you want to Barlow back? And I was like, oh, yeah, let's do that.

That was so much fun to do. So I'm thrilled for this episode. Again, I've spoiled the guest twice already. So here we are. If you guys haven't figured out, the other person joining us today is Bill Barnwell from ESPN. Barnwell, how you doing it? To be clear, you would be the six of the group. Because Xbox is the wrong company.

SYXX. SYXX. How long do you think we could talk about wrestling to start this show before Maze would insist that we stop? I mean, we can get going. 42 seconds. Every year, every year I feel like I come on this show. And I'm like, could Nate and I pull a hostile table? takeover in mid-show somehow and convince May is that it's no longer his podcast.

If you guys want it, it's yours. You guys can take it. I'm good. So we have some Leeds United Talk. And we're going to talk about, you know, some winter transfer moves for the USMT players. USM-T players, you know, that I think that's how we lead off the show. I think it's a good time to do that. There's nothing else going on in sports, you know, golf.

We're going to talk about the dual nationals. Yes. Who might be joining the U.S. national team. And we got an interesting camp roster, you know, coming off the World Cup. You know, got an interesting. All righty, that's our limit. One minute. We're going to switch off here.

We're just going to kind of bounce around each toss out, you know, a lesson, a takeaway. However, we want to frame these about the final four teams. Barnwell, you are a guest here. Why don't you start us off? When you were looking at these four teams, what is the first thing that jumped out to you about them? Okay. For the Kansas City Chiefs, the key to their success is that they have Amir Smith-Marset on the practice squad. 11 and one since he showed up in the building.

You get it. You get it. You get it. No, okay. Here is one I will give you. That is controversial that I've read about in the past. And I don't know that I even agree with, but I do feel like we have a case study in making that work in San Francisco. And of course, the Niners could not have expected that they would be here with Brock Purdy.

as their quarterback, but years ago when the Rams were about to pay Jared Gough, when the Eagles were about to pay Carson Wentz, when you had a bunch of quarterbacks who were not going to make much money who were about to get raises, I wrote about, hey, is there ever going to be a team that says, instead of paying our quarterback and having to cut back elsewhere, we're going to keep all those expensive players in other positions and try to stay cheap at quarterback. Now, easier said than done. Don't know that it would work. The Niners, of course, traded three first-round picks for a young quarterback in Tray Lance.

We'll get to that, of course. But the idea here is you have a genius offensive coordinator in Carl Shanahan. You have a great staff. You have right now the most expensive running back in football in Christian McCaffrey, a wide receiver one getting paid like a wide receiver one in Debo Samuel, a top five tenant and George Kittle, a top two. left tackle in terms of money and play in Trent Williams, a first-round pick on Brandon Iuke, multiple twos and threes used on players elsewhere in terms of playmakers. This is a team that has invested so much in their offensive infrastructure, and right now their quarterback is the last player chosen in the draft, and they're one game away from

a Super Bowl. So do you think this raises the possibilities, even 1% or 2%? that a team might sit here and say, hey, we can keep all these other guys and go with a cheap quarterback and live to tell the tail. I'll raise you another one. I think the Eagles are another example of that right now. Sure. They are. The Eagles are, I'm pretty sure.

So the Niners are in this weird situation where I think spending to the cap, they're actually ninth in quarterback spending in 2022 when you combine Jimmy, Tray Lance, and Brock Purdy. But the way they've restructured a bunch of their contracts, there are guys who have really low cap hits this year. Trent Williams. I think Kittle is in there. Fred Warner is in there. And they push them to next year because now with Garapolo gone, I think he's like $13 million against the cap this year, they'll be down on that rookie quarterback timeline again.

The Niners are very good at kind of moving the money around in that way and giving themselves that flexibility. But the Eagles, I think, are 32nd right now in quarterback AAB total in the entire NFL for like 2023. Day two, fix. I'll do it. It is, is Gardner Minshu making more, or Gardner, Minshu is a free agent next year, correct? Yeah, so that maybe that maybe that's it.

Does he make more this year than Jalen Hertz? It's a very good question. I should ask a good question. I'm pretty sure he does. He's in the final year of his deal, so he probably got the player bonus. He's probably making like two or three million, and Jalen Hertz is making like, I would guess, $6.50 or $700. Pennies, yeah. God, that's ridiculous when you rank it. Oh, he's making significantly more than Jalen Hertz.

Oh, no. So Gardner Minchew right now has a 2.5 mincew. million dollar cap hit. Okay. Yeah. The 22 Eagles. Jaylen Hertz is at 1.6. So it's almost a million dollars more that Gardnernerner.

And she was making than Jaylen Hertz. That's funny. That's going to change is my suspicion next to your hair. I also think that's going to change. I think it's fascinating. You and I have had this conversation in some form like 20 times over the last five to eight years. Do you think the Niners are a specific enough situation that would be a fool's errand to take anything from them?

in terms of what you can learn. Not really. I mean, there's a philosophy there. Clearly, one of the other ones I was going to get to, I guess I can just hit that one now for the Niners is they're sort of the football equivalent to the Free Darko positionless basketball idea, right? That you were going to have basically basketball teams that were just full of six, eight guys who could all shoot and play defense and play five positions.

and it was just going to be this like block of athleticism that you were going to have to deal with. And I think the Niners, in terms of their playmakers, and in terms of even the quarterback when they had Trey Lance there, were that. They had guys who could run. They had guys who could run after the catch. They had guys who can catch the ball, line up anywhere. That's instilled in every one of their players. And so I think you have to really have a very clear idea of how you're going to invest and, of course, succeed when you actually do get those. guys, but even acknowledging that Kyle is a difference maker in terms of what he can do with

what I'm about to get to. But, but, but if you have those weapons, you have those playmakers, I think that's going to take you at least part of the way. Right. All right. Because there's a, oh, I'm sorry, but there's a difference. Make your Kyle point. And then I'll go from there because my biggest lesson is about this.

Yeah. Well, and I actually talk about the position of players is what can be one of my lessons later. No, but I get what you're saying. I just, it's like you've got to have two of the three puzzle pieces, right? You got to have the surrounding circumstances. You got to have a play car and you have to have a quarterback. And I think that's always the some way, shape, or form of the formula. And I think that's it.

Because I think the Rams this year were a cool case study because I trust Sean McVeigh to put together some good game plans and get the most out of his offensive players. And we saw that wasn't very pretty. And it brings up to that. And so I think that's why the 49ers are 49ers, 49ers are just such a perfect like Kyle Shanahan is the Rosetta Stone one of the best play callers. I think it's just it's not even a question anymore.

Like even the ones that have not liked him for years. That's not a question. But this team, this skill, this explosive skill players, I think that's the two pieces that, the big puzzle pieces of this formula or this puzzle that you want to put together. I think the niners are in a position to do this. But I don't think it's like, it's like one way to do this as opposed to maybe a blueprint because. Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, but no, I think about like, nineers could go and get Jacoby Brissette. I'd be like, yeah, I'm fine with that. Which is why it's hilarious that they traded all these picks for trade lands. Correct. Correct. And right. When they did it, I was supportive of it. So a buddy of mine, when this trade happened, he's like, why would they do this?

You know, they're going to NFC championship games with Jimmy Garapolo and they've built this machine there in San Francisco. Why would you give up all of this for a quarterback? And my response, and it's something I said a bunch at the time, eventually the machine will diminish. You can't keep all these players. You can't ask the circumstances to be this good for this long. And they have thrown that right back in my face. It's gotten better.

It's not that it's maintained. It's actually gotten better. But I do think that they are in a pretty specific place where they can do this. And I think a lot of that is driven by Koshanaan, who isn't just a good play caller. Like I think has separated himself as kind of like a, maybe like a one-on-few. one type of play caller now. Like Andy Reid has Pappell from Holmes.

Right. He does. And that's true. And Andy Reed has some moments where you like, what was that? And Shanhan's more like when to go out fourth down as opposed to what he's doing schematically. Structurally within the offense. I'm agreeing with you, Robert.

I'm just, yeah, adding on. No, I agree with you. Two things I would say in terms of Nate's point. I agree about the Rams, but also they were starting five backup linemen. Right. By the end of the season. And I think that's, it's going to. to be hard to make that work. Maybe you can if you're Joe Burrow and people will get to that

later on. But I think that's going to impact things. And also I think there's a sliding scale, right? Like it's not a binary thing where either you have a franchise quarterback and you're don't need anything else or it's you have a bum off the street or whatever Brock Pert, like you have the final pick in the draft. Like you may have the ability to trade away that quarterback you've developed like a Jared Gough after year three for. meaningful draft capital and use that first round pick on a quarterback. I don't think you would go into that philosophy saying, okay, we're taking this guy and then three years from now, no matter how good he is, like out the door, we're good. I think you have to be able to sit there after

year two and say, okay, we're okay, we're okay with this, but we're not super excited. Like, we might want to go in a different direction and then scout your three for quarterbacks and see if you have a guy you love in the draft or you can land. And then if you can make a trade to get that guy, then go ahead and do it. I don't think it's the thing where you say, you know, years and advance, we're going in this direction. I think you have to kind of be flexible as that quarterback's career goes along. Ability to pivot. That's what it is. Yeah, ability pivot. And this is, that sliding scale comment, I think, is so perfect because that's, I think, what the QB discourse from the last few days is really, I think what everyone has to emphasize is

that it is a sliding scale. And is that some of these guys, it's like, yes, they need some help. Every quarterback needs help. And some need more help. Some need less help. Some need a line. Some need a tight end. Some need a ball winner. Some need a yak guy.

They all need different things. And I think that's why I always continue to come back. Sorry, this is just that dovetailing off to a different discussion. But is that with these quarterbacks is you treat them like NBA stars. Like you put guys around them that makes sense. And I think, yeah, the Niners are in that own unique world because they have the play car that kind of, they have Popovich, kind of making sure all these guys. He's get open and get the right cuts and get to the right spots a little bit. But yeah, no, I get what you're saying, Bill.

I think that Shanahan is the hardest part of this to replicate. If we're trying to create a blueprint out of it, there's only one Kyle Shanahan. The past catchers thing, though, that to me is a blueprint. So my number one thing is I think we not live in like an era of offensive weaponry. With the exception, probably being Mahomes, where you can yank one of the best receivers in the league off that team and they can still be great. I think we've seen that over time. If you have a quarterback at that top, top level, like the best player in the league, he can elevate everyone around him. But everyone else, pretty much, I think has to be at least in some way elevated by their offensive weapons.

And Nate, you and I have talked about this. I think it was you that said it. I agree with this. A great offensive line lifts your floor. Great weapons raise your ceiling. And I think that's what we've seen from these teams. Look at three of these four teams outside of the chiefs, okay? Pretty much all of their past catchers, all of their.

their weapons are top 35 picks or borderline top five players at the position in terms of pay. T. Higgins and Jamar Chase, both top 35 picks. Tyler Boyd was his second round pick. Devante Smith and A.J. Brown, they traded a first round pick for him. He's paid like a top five receiver. Dallas Goddard has paid like a top five tight end. San Francisco. Debo has paid like a top five receiver. Brandon Ayuk was a first round pick. George Cato has paid like a top three tight end. McCaffrey trade value total is like a mid-first round pick if they're picking 30. second this year. Every single one of these teams has at least too often more high level guys that they've invested a ton in. And I last year, this is almost like an extension of one of the

ones I had last year. Last year I was like, you need one of them. Now I think you need more than one. You just need an array of weapons. Watch the cowboys. Yeah. Watch the teams that didn't make it. Yeah. The Cowboys. The what the bills look like right now outside of Stefan Diggs. And this is something that I've really kind of come around on over the last couple years, where I used to think that the rarity of great offensive linemen was such that in the Chase Sewell conversation, I understood wanting to take the linemen in that way. But I just think that elite past catchers are now more important than singular elite offensive linemen. And I think that what we have seen from this group in this final four is kind of like the nail in the coffin for that to me, just watching these

teams and what it feels like. And the other side of it is as an accelerant for quarterback, back development. Like, the ability last year to have Jamar Chase and T. Higgins on the outside while Joe Burrow was becoming the guy that we see now, what A.J. Brown is and what Devante Smith has been as ball winners for Jalen Hertz as he's kind of sifting through his own development. What those guys have done for these teams and the quarterbacks on these teams, I just feel like this is the way forward. And that's just kind of, I didn't feel that way two years ago.

I really didn't. Yeah, I'm still, it's still hard for me because it's just, for me, it's just, it's always just, it's always just best player. So it's, you can't have a good offense line without starting with one single good offense alignment and you can't have a good receiving core without starting with one good singular receiver. You know, so like that's where I, I have trouble with like kind of breaking that apart now. But I agree with you that it's the group of pass catchers. I think the Eagles is, you look at what the Eagles do with their guys and really that top three with Goddard in there. having three guys, three weapons, three guys that can score. I'll just use like think of it in basketball terms.

Three guys that can win. Like win on their own. Yes. You need a zone beater and you need multiple guys that can beat zone and multiple guys that can beat man. It's just like in basketball. You need multiple guys that can shoot at the same time. You create space.

And I agree with that and that you need more than one rather just one. I think that Cowboys, watching that Cowboys team, especially on Sunday and watching a kind of a slot only receiver. that this is where the area was in C.D. Lamb and then them have no other answers and just watching this offense just get slammed shut is it's going to stand out to me that yes. Like, yes, Paulard is a nice weapon of running back, but you know, he did get banged up. But you just need something on the outside to compliment. You need both. It's just impossible to live in the world where you're only attacking one area of the field. So I agree with you. That's, that's why I'm going to with. I would just say a couple things. Nate's not saying this. So I'm not criticizing Nate here.

But I think this is an aside, the sort of argument that the Cowboys, they don't have anything, but it's not like they don't have anything because DAC's making too much money. They have a running back making $15 million a year. They have a number two wide receiver making $12, $13 million a year. They have a tight end on the franchise tag. They have expensive players in those positions. They're just not that good. Right. Like that's not, that's my DAC, my DAC discourse contribution.

Thank you. But I would say a couple things to you guys' points. Number one, on the coaching side, maybe this is me being naive. I feel like it's easier for me to imagine a great offensive line coach coaching up several offensive linemen into being useful contributors. This is another one of my points. That is for me to imagine a receivers coach turning, I don't know, James Thrash into A.J. Brown. I 100% agree with you. I agree with that.

One of my lines, I'll just say right now, this was like a one B I had from another point, but I said, O line coaches are the new money ball. Yes. I mean, just look at the four line coaches. Just vets that are all established, respected veteran offensive line coaches. I agree with that, Bill. I think offensive line coach has more impact than, I think receivers are more situation scheme proof as far as they're coaching that getting than offensive alignment are.

Offense alignment get more boost from their coaching than anybody else. I had this exact point. Can you can your offensive, you can have a great offensive line coach elevate a group of average players to a functional unit. You can't do that with skill position players. So as part of this overall equation, do you have a plan to create surplus value from your weak link systems? And I think that's both at offensive line and in the secondary.

With the offensive line, we've seen that from the Eagles for years. They turned a fucking rugby player into a, like high level left tackle. Every single guy that goes there gets better spot because he was an international pathway player. It's like the most genius thing that's ever happened. He's all going to international pathways of the new money. Yeah.

Let's find some German receivers and draft him in the sixth round like the Vikings. What Jeff Stalin does for that team is you can't even quantify it, how valuable it is. And Andy Hack has done that in Kansas City. Trace Smith coming in there is a six round pick. They've consistently done that. And then I think the flip side to that also in Kansas City, can you do that with your secondary?

So can you coach that system? There are only really two position groups that are a system, offensive line and the secondary in the same way. So can you elevate that system so it's more than the sum of the parts? And I think the chiefs have done that in the secondary consistently. Think about the chief's defensive backs that they've gotten a lot out of that were young, undrafted or lowly drafted players. Jalen Watson this year,

Rashad Fenton and Mike Hughes last year after they traded nothing from Mike Hughes. Ligerius Sneed was a fourth-round rookie who was contributor for them. Traverius Ward was an undrafted free agent. They just have so many of these examples because they've coached them up to that degree. So those systems of players on offense defense, whether it's a secondary coach or an offensive line coach, can you elevate those groups and save resources there? I think that's huge. Huge. I agree with you.

I mean, even we've complimented the Bengals and how they, I mean, honestly, mitigate. Getting Frank Pollock back. Frank Pollock was huge. I mean, looking at just that game last week, everyone's talking about, oh, man, the Bengals old line was they're not going to be able to block. None of those guys went to the wrong spot once. And the fact that slows them down and buys that after half second and pass protection or just making the run game viable and just getting just getting it to average.

And that's that's worth their weight in gold, you know, especially when the line, mine coach is usually all way 250 plus. It's really valuable. Like, but seriously, that they, this matters. Like this, like I totally agree. And bringing up the DBs is so, that's so great, Robert. That's a great, great example because like you said, those are the most unit, unit positions. If that, like one edge player can do whatever he wants compared to the other three.

Yes, they can do other thing. One linebacker can do different than the other linebacker and just what they do. But watch safeties overlap each other and have to communicate. Same with offensive line stuff. So, no, that's a great, great call. The other thing I would mention about sort of the impact of that idea about playmakers being so important in the modern game is that it changes the calculus of how you draft because the top of the wide receiver market is growing at a faster rate than the salary cap. It's growing at a faster rate than the value of rookie deals. And so much like quarterbacks, not to the same extent, obviously, not to the same extent as edge rushers, but now,

like wide receivers are more valuable than they were in the draft 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago. Like they become extremely, extremely valuable because... Look what happened in Leicester's draft. Look at where those guys were taken. I think they're still undervalued in the draft, frankly. I think you're in a position now where I think a wide receiver could be the first overall pick in a draft. Like obviously, you're not going to take them over a quarterback. But I think now, like, there was a certain...

crop of positions, I think left tackle and edge rusher were the only positions, I guess running back when people didn't know what they were doing. But left tackle and edge rusher were the only positions you could realistically see going one besides quarterback. And now I think wide receiver is in that discussion. If Jamar Chase is in the Chase Young draft, if we can go back and do that right now, he's number, he's the number one pick. There's no question. And I mean, you're making, I don't know, but what was Jeremy Chase's deal? Was it like six million a year? Yeah. Yeah, something like that. I think it's like nine this year, even in year two. I don't think it's even that high. I was looking up for a point I'm doing for TV tonight, which is like this is the best chance for the biggest chance. Somebody's on TV. Right.

On a channel I know. It's seven million. It's seven million this year. Okay. Okay. So he's making seven million this year. Like, if he was free, he'd get $30 million a year. Yes.

Right. So like over the course of four years of his contract, he's making. 28 million and he's probably worth it by 120 million. So you're making about 90 million or so in surplus. That's what you make on a quarterback. That's really the only positions otherwise. You can make that. And pass rush. I think a really, really good pass rush. I have to reevaluate that. That's a great call because of the Hill and Devante Adams deals. It's just that whole market's got reset when Mike Williams is making 20 mil, you know. And it's not going down. No. It's not going back. No. And the cap keeps going up too. But that talk about, you're talking about the number one

receiver too. And God, this is, no, this is great because the trickle down of that is now secondary receivers. Christian Kirk's making 17 million. Wouldn't you rather have Jahan Dotson, you know, in the late first round? I mean, that's surplus right there. Like, I mean, that I, you asked me five years ago, would I take a second receiver in the first round? I would have been laughing so hard. Like, no way. Wait until day two. Are you kidding? Now it's like, yeah, I get it. Like it makes sense. It makes total sets. What if what if the Eagles had A.J. Brown first and then they drafted DeVante Smith. Right. Like, they flipped that. Now I'd be like, that that's brilliant. That's brilliant. That's what I'm saying. You're not going to find a second guy as good as that on the market.

Right. And there's an impact now also on tight ends, which we saw. I forget what this came up on your guys podcast. It did. We talked about Hawkinson. Yeah. Hawkinson's the example, right? Like that tight end class is now undervalued because they're making so much less than similarly talented wide receivers. That's one of my points as well. What's your, what's your net first one, Nate? Oh, man. Sorry. I got, no, I got, you guys kind of like touch on a couple. So I don't know what the lead in.

I'm trying to learn from the segue master over here. So I'm going to go with, okay, so versatility in your offense. So we talked about this and really in being in the same personnel group and be able to attack defenses is I think it doesn't have to just be one, like 12 personnel, 11. Whatever works for your team, you have to have that. Everyone is basing out of 11 personnel. I mean, almost everyone has more than half their snaps. But you have to have that second personnel grouping how you can attack defenses. The Bengals are an exception.

No one runs. They basically are exclusively 11. But the 49ers have their death lineup, 21 personnel. Even what the Bengals are doing with Jamar Chase now, though, it's different than the 11. Moving into the slot. He's in the backfield. Yeah, moving with slots. He's matched up against Tremade Edmonds one-on-one.

Chiefs and 13 personnel. Eagles and 12 personnel. They lead the NFL and EPA per play out of 12 personnel. They're in it more than 20% of the time. I think that is you have to make defenses are so astute and the data they have, who goes what where, who's, who's onto the field? Okay, Zach Pascal's in the game.

Okay, they're running in the ball. You know, like they or the running back is kick strong. Okay, this means this, this and this. There's more data than ever and coaches are smarter at going through that data. So having guys that can play all three downs and not just your 11 personnel, but that other guy, your best five and with some way, shape, or form, I think all teams have to have to find that. And this was kind of my second point with this is tight ends and fullbacks unlock so much for the offense.

Not everyone can trot out, like I said, the 11 personnel that the Bengals can with Howard Boyd and all that. And Hayden Hurst being a damn good tight end as well, or at least a useful guy. But yes, some of this could be attributed to Kelsey and Kittle being pretty good. But the surface is presented as a run game. Remember, you know, diversifying run looks, I think is a key part of this. but personnel and play calls, not going to see those crazy DB looks if you have more tight ends on the field. You're creating matchup advantages. But if you look, of these four teams, 12 and 21, that pro personnel, that's what NFL teams consider this.

EPA per play, Eagles are first, chiefs are fifth, 49ers are six of those looks. 12 and 21 success rate. Eagles are first, chiefs are second, 49ers are sixth. 12, 21 and 13 EPA per play, I get the bangles in here now. they're 15th, but they're in the top half of the league. All the other three teams are in the top five and all those metrics. They have found those ways to get the best out of it and make defense's basic or make the defense's guess and not be able to tee off on them. And I think that this matters and this is tying into just being more versatile with each player and more positionless.

And I think the 409ers are the prime perfect example with their death lineup. But I think just coaches are smarter with using these guys. I think F tight ends that are more not really great blockers are getting used better than ever. I think coaches like Evan Ingram is Evan Ingram is the perfect example. But coaches have stopped going, hey, you're a crappy blocker. But guess what? You have to block the D.N. And down block them every single time.

They're like now, no, what's having RPO? What's having them block across the formation? Let's have them on the backside. They're just learning. Like they're not saying we have to man up every play like old coaches used to do. They're actually using them like. intelligently and creating advantages with these guys. I think the receiver classes, this is also tied in.

This is the last point with this is, I think just being able to that three down versatility for players is more important than ever, offense and defense, but especially on offense. And I think that trickles down to running backs. I think watching CMC with this 40-N-Iers team. And I think running backs able to play as many snaps as possible. Yes,

that's always going to be primed in what you're looking for, what you're really leaning on. but I think that's the value for that is more than ever because those guys are eating touches, touches matter, and eating snaps. If they're playing 40-something snaps and getting the ball 15 times, that's, you know, that's valuable, especially if the defenses can't tee off on that.

Especially we see this draft, there's some great three-down backstremer gives, Bejohn Robinson, Zach Charbonnet. But there's, I think that position and being able to, being a true three-down guy, like a pass, protect, receive, and run the ball. Like that, there's so much value with that. So finding that personnel grouping and also just positionless football.

And I think that's, yes, it's idealistic. But I think there are lessons to take from these teams. Well, this isn't, I mean, you're not saying this is a new thing. No. But it is like this reminds me so much of the Patriots, right? Yeah. Like this is a, this is a Patriots thing. We're guessing in 2007, they could spread you out with four wideouts and they were going to win either way because they had.

And they go two tight ends and toss the ball to Aaron. Her name. The same place. Yes. They were around the same place in 20. 11 that they were in 2007. Still Hoss White Juke. It's just Aaron Hernandez instead of West Welker.

Correct. But I guess what I'm saying is I think you have to have not only a secondary grouping, but really a primary grouping that makes the defense wrong no matter how they choose a defendant personnel. And I think the Niners are the perfect example of that, right? Because if they come out with a death lineup and it's CMC, use check, IE, Kittle, and Debo, like, you're going to stay in base? You're going to go to nickel?

Like there's no right solution. And so I think with your primary setup, unless you're the Bengals and you just have two top 10 wide receivers and a quarterback who's perfect. And by the way, Tyler Boyd and Joe Mixen are also pretty incredible too. They're number one, I think, in my playmaker rankings this year. Like you have to have a grouping that is going to make the defense wrong no matter what. I think if you're going to be a top tier offense. Because you can come out and line up anyway. Yeah.

That doesn't be anything particular. Those guys could be in the huddle that that death lineup in 21. They literally could line up in any five positions when they walk out there. You have no idea what the formation will look like, even if you know who the players in the field they're going to be. It's insane. It's just absolutely ridiculous. And that's what, and like Bill you just said was that it's not new. Like everybody wants to do this.

I think it's just more feasible than ever to do it because of the skill sets of players and coaches that are more creative than ever and willing to try. this shit rather than just going, no, we have to grind him to a pole running duo over and over. I think, too, is that like, look at the Eagles. They go 12 personnel. The advantage of that is, oh, all right, you want to go single high and load the box and stop our run game when we're in 12 personnel? We got A.J. Brown, Devante Smith on the outside. Good luck, Gardner us one on one.

Okay, now you want to go too high. We got the best offensive line in the league. We'll just grind you to a pole. Like that is, that is like just, like you said, making defenses wrong by without doing anything, not getting in some special personnel grouping, but looking the same. That is just impossible to defend. And that's what all these guys, all these teams have that version. The Chiefs is the 13 personnel.

All right, we have Blake Bell and Noah Gray in the game now. All right. Oh, you're matching with nickel because Travis Kelsey's in the game. Well, here it comes. You know, just run it right down your throat. But if you want to get heavy, all right, we're going to pass it. Now we have Travis Kelsey running an overrout against a linebacker. Just always making the defense is wrong.

I didn't have this one, but it was kind of like a secondary one. the run game is is back, baby. That was my number one one, yes. Let's do it. Let's do it. Because I think that if you look at all these teams, they can run when teams make them run.

And it feels like that is crucial at this point. You have to find a way to run the ball, but it's not the sheer stats. I even had a little joke written here. And it was like, and Bill, you know, if you look,

I know you like basic counting stats, Bill. So Chiefs and Bengals ranked 20th and 29th in team rushing yards this year. So what are we talking about that? You have to run the ball. You have to run the ball efficiently. And the rush success rate, all these teams were 40% or better, better than league average 39.7. Bengals were eighth, Chiefs ninth, Eagles first, 49ers 11th.

Six since the CMC trade, Bengals are third since their week five changes. All of them in the top half in DVOA, 409 is second since the CMC trade. Bengals are fourth overall, chiefs are ninth, the Eagles are first. Okay. It doesn't have to be one way. I think there was the meadow was the Shanahan run game. Okay, we have to have the Shanahan run game. Outside zone.

It's just what works for your personnel. The Bengals is a diverse run game. The chiefs get in the heavier personnel and they also do RPO's out spread looks. QBs have the Eagles have the QB run game and the Atchue run game and the foreigners with the Shanahan run scheme that they diversify. So now the second part of this is you have to have an explosive. pass game. I think that's the balance now. I think this quick hitting pass

game, yes, there's some that matters, the package plays, RPO's. You have to get chunks some way. The Bengals are kind of like an exception to this, but the league average for explosive passes with 13.8, we can call it 14, whatever. Bengals are like right at average. Chiefs are third though. Eagles are

second, 49ers are fifth. So, I looked. There are 11 teams this year that met both thresholds. 40% run success rate and better than average explosive play rate. Eagles, bangles, chiefs, 49ers, bills, jaguars, dolphins. And then the other four were the Falcons, Raiders, Panthers, and Lions. But what I think is more important is that six of those teams made it to the next round. They won one game or had the first round by.

Six of the eight had met both of those thresholds. The Cowboys just missed it. The Giants just missed it, both of them. Seven of the eight divisional round teams had a rush success rate, 39% or higher. Cowboys were at 38.7. So almost all 8 of 8. And I think that is what, that's what it is. If defense was wanted to present this, and this is what the three-down versatility of the backs comes into play,

because defenses want to present and play this way, make it hard on us. This is how you have to attack them. You have to run the ball and hit chunk plays on them some way, shape, or form. I think all these teams found their formula. I think that's the key success of playing offensive football in 2022 and now 2023 and beyond. Yeah. I certainly think that's the case. I mean, what it reminds me of, to some extent, are the Saints, where the Saints had super efficient rushing attacks during their peak years.

And it wasn't like they had incredible running backs and incredible offensive linemen, but teams were terrified of them throwing. And so it opened up opportunities for them in the running game. And that balance of we're going to throw a fair amount, but we can run efficiently when we do run is always going to be the back and forth. Like, you know, the Chiefs are never going to be. a wishbone team, Patrick Mahomes and Andy Reader's center, but can they be efficient when they need to run? When this is going to come up, I'm sure when you guys talk about the game up this coming week, when they get a four-man box from the Bengals on third and three again like they did last

day of the championship game, are they going to try to throw through it? Are they going to absolutely let themselves run for a first down? Because that's what they should be doing. And I think we're seeing more teams, more of the past friendly, past happy teams, except that they're going to be running in those situations as well. Yes. You're making the defense's respected because they're so coverage-based now. And it makes, we talk about Robert, the best offenses are getting the first down on first

and second down. This makes it easier for that. So you get five yards on first down. Well, that makes it second of five. That makes everything easier there. We get two yards on second down, third and three. Third and three is way easier than third nine, third and eight, third ten. Converting in short yardage and staying efficient there, churning it first downs, first

Downs first downs. Also, if you're going for it and fourth down, third and three is a lot less scary because you have two plays to get three. That's another thing. Oh, I know. Eagles, Eagles, like third and eight, you can see defenses are terrified there because usually the old game would be make it check it down, rally, tackle. It's fourth and three. They're going to punt. Now against the Eagles, it's like, oh, shit, they're going for it. They're going to get this. It's out of 2019 Ravens felt. It's where if you just know that it's going to be two downs because of how comfortable they are with a quarterback run game. And that's so funny back then watching team. celebrate when they got to fourth and two.

And it's just like, that's so fast, my friends. They hold the fist. No, no, no. My favorite part about this, Nate, is that, sorry, the one thing I wanted to point out, you talk about not having an efficient run game, not explosive run game. The Bengals are dead last in the amount of 10 plus yard rushes they have this season. Dude, they're 26th. They got those plotting runners, man, but they're getting five every time.

Five yards. They stay ahead of the chains. No, but the Bengals are such an anomaly with so much the stuff. It's just pure efficiency with barely any explosive plays, which is so. It makes sense, though. It is. That's what's led them to this. This is wind streak.

I mean, yeah, it's just so different from they were last year. It's hilarious. By the way, do you guys know who the first down cheat code coach is, the guy who has had best first down offense pretty much every year he's been a coach or coordinator? Shanahan. It's Kyle Shanahan. Yeah. Who had like a number one first down offense, like a top three first on offense with

Rex Grossman as his quarterback. I just remember the 16 Falcons were like ridiculous. 60 Falcons were the best first on offense and then I felt history. We don't have numbers going past a certain period of time, but if we infer based on how effective they were, like they're the best first on offense we've ever seen. 0-809 Texans, like teams like that where you just look at it. Like how the fuck is the DVOA so high? Just like, yeah, look at the first time.

Shurning, turning, I know. Right. Well, that's, and it goes into, that's just their whole philosophy is Cali-Shanan and spends less time on third down. I don't want to speak for him, but just my experience around them is that they spend a little bit less time on third down than other teams do because they emphasize so much on first and second down. And it makes sense.

That's why it's almost why I want to see Dak Prescott and the Shanahan offense because it's like just let Shanahan do all the work out first and second down and then Dak, you can do all the protection stuff on third down. Perfect. It's a perfect marriage. But that's where, because once they get the third down, it's just point shoot. It's just, uh, this guy's going to be open. If he's not open, okay.

Sorry. Like, that's kind of how they go about. They're in fourths out for their quarterbacks. Burroughs, what's your next one? Oh, gosh. Like, like, I'm past a list where we're actually going through things. I feel like we have different, we've talked about different parts of, like, eight different ones I had listed. Yeah.

Let me do an Eagles one here. Okay. Let's go with, do we want to make fun of the saints or do we want to make fun of the dolphins? would you rather make fun of in this scenario? Both of their fan bases scare me, so I'm not sure which way I don't want to go with that. Okay, I'll go with the Saints. I would say take advantage of desperate teams. Ah, yeah.

The old Bill Belichick staple of have more faith that the team you're trading with does not know what they're doing or is more confident in their success than they should be. And it didn't impact them this year So I guess this is cheating But the Eagles having a top What if that pick is five Where is that pick? 10 10 oh

Since well 10 Yeah They want a little run Against denied the Eagles But you get the idea Like they made a trade That did not hurt them very much

And ended up getting significantly In their favor And added a significant asset to their roster Because they were willing to be patient They said hey We would love to have a first round pick this year but we need to think about the next three or four years, not just this season. And I think the dolphin side of it, which has made me more relevant to this particular team, is don't be overconfident in your pre-draft tiers and pre-draft evaluation because even if you think a guy is going to be a star, like history tells us that it's better to have more shots, especially like premium shots at the draft than settling.

for or insisting on one particular specific guy. And I think this Eagles Dolphins trade is a deal I'm talking about, where they had the sixth overall pick. They desperately needed help at wide receiver. Nobody. Zero people would have faulted them for staying put before they made the trade. They made the trade the same day as the three-way trade, right? Believe so. Yeah.

Yeah. So they could have, they didn't know, but they had an idea that Jalen Wada would be there at six. And instead of doing that, they moved down. They moved down from six to 12. They got an extra first round pick. they move back up slightly on draft day and still got Devante Smith. Now, I think Jalen Waddle is better than Devante Smith. Vante Smith's been bawling out the past few weeks.

He's pretty great at football. He's awesome, though. Devonty Smith plus the first round pick is better than Jalen Waddle. That's the point is that the first round pick the dolphins had gave them. There was a trade involved, but it eventually turned into Jordan Davis. So we'd rather have Jalen Waddle or Jordan Davis and Devonte Smith. And I think when we think about these trades and some, scouting and drafting and how hyper-focused teams get on particular players.

And the Eagles, who of course are a particularly analytically, quantitatively, inclined organization, I think they're smart to say, well, we're not that good. Like, we can't tell the difference between Jalen Waddle and Devante Smith before the draft. They could both be great. They could both bust. Let's get an extra first-term pick for not making that decision. And I think that is something that I hope other teams don't do because it's going to be. be an advantage for the teams who do do this kind of stuff.

But I'm afraid that there are far more teams like the Eagles these days than there are like the Saints. Yeah, you got to find the sucker that I mean, anybody want Hollywood Brown for first rounder? Like that's another. Like, you know, like, for the Cardinals. No, I totally agree with that. I think that's, I like what you're saying there is like, oh, is there much difference between Waddle and Smith?

And that's the thing. It's like, there's so much that goes into where people are like, Oh, I have this guy as receiver two and this guy receiver three. Tier it. Group these guys together because that's how, just like in a fantasy draft. I mean, that's how teams look at this. We have these four guys with the same grade or near in the same grade. Okay, get the best of the bunch.

That's how the smarter teams I think do go go about it. So I, no, I totally agree with that. It's the, uh, that's, no, that's funny. I, I'm just remembering our mini takes episode we did together, Barnwell, we're talking about the saints. Can I also just bring up another one? quickly. Of course. Yeah. Howie Roseman. He's not as good as he looks right now. And he wasn't as bad as he was two years ago when everybody wanted to fire him. Like, just a general rule,

just chill. Like, if you're in love with somebody, like Brandon Bean, it's kind of getting some heat right now for some, not all that great drafts. He was a genius two years ago. Like, these guys are good, but they're going to have stretches where they look bad. They're going to have stretches where they look like geniuses. Like, always take everything. good or bad with a grain of salt with these guys because you're basing your opinions on like two or three draft picks meaningfully given that how unlikely later on picks are to pan out like right it's just the the margin between these guys looking like geniuses and looking like idiots is so slim so just be patient we take a hundred years to do presidential rankings yeah so say four

your terms the nature of even drudging a general manager based on the strength or weakness of his draft classes, I think is just a silly way to do it. I want to look at these guys in terms of how much of an advantage are they consistently creating for their teams. And I think that if you look at Philadelphia financially, like what they've been able to do with the cap and how they manipulate it consistently and still give themselves this wiggle room to have all of these guys, they do a really good job with it. The Niners are the same way. I'm sitting here looking at the Niners salary cap for next year and wondering, how the hell are they going to do this with all the, they're paying Trent. Williams, 27 million against the cap next year and all this. And they have $16 million

in cap space right now. But before they even do anything for next season. And I think there are teams that consistently, they just turn over every rock, whether it's salary cap wise, resources, where are we looking for players? Those are the good front offices. And I do think the bills have done a good job with that. They've just failed to find truly elite guys in the draft since Josh Allen. So if your front offices operate that way, I think that's your best chance to to put yourself in this sort of position. And I think the Niners and the Eagles are really good examples of that. Yeah.

Find your red paper clips. That's really, that's what it is. I mean, no, that's great. I love that you brought up the 40-Nirers, too. And that also helps that when you nail on so many day three-pick defensive players. You know, that helps. Of course. Yeah, that helps.

But no, I know that's a good point. I have a. Oh. Oh. I have a related point to that, which in Niners and late-round picks. The Niners have another. way there are arbitration the league. They're getting all day three picks because people keep hiring their executives and coaches

of color. They're going to get four more this year, potentially. They have, they already have four. They had three, they had one in 21, two and 22. They get two more this year. And I think another one in 24. Wow. Is it more than that?

Well, they get two more for Rancarthen, first of all. They get two for Rancarthen. That's what I'm saying. They're two for Rancarthen. And then if Jimiko gets hired away, that's another two, and that pushes it even further out, because that's what happened with Martin Mayhew and Michael. Yes. So contextualizing that, they got 102, 102, 105 in the past. Let's just say five, 102 picks.

That's equivalent to a top five pick in the draft by the Chase Stewart chart. It's equivalent to, I think on the over-the-cap chart, it's kind of in that same ballpark. Even if you want to take the Jimmy Johnson chart, that's worth a mid-second round pick. Like, that's an incredible driver. And that's what five. They're going to get seven if Ryan's gets hired. And like that is, it should encourage teams. There's obviously also the many other myriad reasons why teams should be hiring more diverse staff.

It's better for you. It's better for the game. It's better for it's getting people who are qualified into roles. It's better for life. But if you just want to be selfish, you're going to get a ton of draft value out of it as well. So that's like a hidden way of the Niners where I know the trade lands trade is not something you'd go back and do. And it's not like they're independent things. But one of the ways they've been able to overcome that is having all this extra draft capital.

Yeah. That's a really good point. I was thinking about that too. And they just keep stacking up. And the fact that it can be four or more of them from this year's group of coaches and executives is huge. And especially when you're trading away all these picks of they're trading away. It's a great thing. I think what Bill says, it's such a great thing.

Like this is working how it should work. Like, and this is, it's a good thing because otherwise you just have the same old retreads as opposed to what, you know, like fresh ideas and fresh eyes on everything. I think that's a great point. I, mine's not as like grandiose is that. Now it's kind of back. I'm back to like scheme, but I wanted to throw some defensive stuff in here. So this is my last. I got some defensive stuff. Let's go to the defense. Okay. I got a little defense. Yeah, we got the personnel. We got, you know, GMs. We had the offense. I'm going whether it's blitzing or bringing simulated pressures. You have to have a. diverse plan on passing downs against quarterbacks. That is a very long way, winded way. This is a piece of one of mine. Okay. We'll get there.

I think offenses now have gotten so good at, I mean, in general, there's a huge swing back the last two years, give or take, two seasons. Offenses have so many now staple answers. The NFL becomes very distilled. Hey, they're running three match. Okay, we will run these five plays this week. Okay, they're running quarters. We have these five plays.

Yada, yada, yada. I think now because of that, defense is getting to the same coverages and the same what they want to do, but in unusual ways, the unusual rushing for the simulated pressures. Getting a free runner is, of course, the goal and pressures. Just watch what the Bengals did to Josh Allen and the Billsill line last week. But it's making QB stay in the pocket while holding on the ball for three more seconds. That is, I think, the key is not when I'm getting out of the pocket or not when I'm get rid of the ball quick. If you can just do that, keep them in the pocket, hold on the ball with different angles of coverage. That's the way to go about it.

And even looking in numbers wise, 4-9ers-in-chiefs are both above average and blitzes on third and fourth down. The bangles are about average. The Eagles are below average. But the Eagles are top five and simulated pressures brought this year. The angles are 12th. So even if they haven't brought a ton of blitzes, they bounce it out with the simulators. And I think, too, is talking about positional versatility. This is the tying into the personnel.

down. Robert, we've talked about this in different shows, but it goes into, again, more like bodies for the defense, more tweener bodies, because inside linebackers have to be able to blitz. Edge types have to be able to have some coverage ability because they're dropping more than ever. And DBs have to be good blitzers, good coverage guys, have to be in the run fit. And those smart safeties, this was like a three bullet point one point. So just bear with me here, but smart safeties unlock so much with this as well. And that ties into safety play and how there's so many good safety strand out. But Justin Reed with the Chiefs, Bates and Von Bell for the Bengals, C.J. Gardner Johnson for the Eagles, Sifonga and Jimmy Ward. I know Jimmy Ward's nickel for the 49ers. But these guys, I've talked about how there's the adjuster on the offense, which is the F-tide end, the fullback, the third receiver. These guys are the adjusters for the defense now. They are the move pieces for the defense, these safeties that can play the slot, can play in the box, play deep. And that also unlocks the blitzing ability and how to confuse quarterbacks. Quarterbacks are just sort of.

so good. But just watch Kyle Dugger. If you want to know what I'm talking about, watch Kyle Dougger, watch Hifonga and watch these guys run every coverage, every type of zone, every man match, and run every type of blitz. That's what these guys have to do now. And I think that's going to be a trend again as players become more versatile and more positionless. So I love this. Okay. Justin Reed, Von Bell, C.J. Gardner Johnson, those three guys that you just listed off. What is similar about those three players and how their teams acquired them? Yeah, they signed them all. They're all off the market. So they're all veterans that were either signed or traded for. And that was one of my

points is that as we get to a place where you have to have this game plan heavy defense and you have to be flexible and you have to be able to deploy things week in and week out, having smart defensive backs and veteran defensive backs, that to me is kind of an untapped market. Think about these secondaries on these teams and how they've been constructed. Darius Slay was traded for. James Bradbury was a veteran free agent. C.J. Gardner Johnson was traded for the Bengals entire secondary is essentially built a veteran free agent. Von Bell, Mike Hilton, when Jadobie Wuzier was there, Eli Apple, Justin Reed with the chiefs. Traverius Ward is a free agent.

Jimmy Ward is somebody they kept on a second contract. Just hunting in those places for defensive backs specifically because, again, if it's a weakling system, you're just trying to plug holes. So using free agent dollars to find smart functional pieces on the back end in order to run some of these complex all over the place flexible plans on defense. I think that there's something there. Yeah. What you're saying, complex. It's just how the looks, the offense is going to give you. It's so much communication and feel.

And that's going back to your original DB coaches and O line coaches comparison. How much those guys have to pass off and say this, like you're doing this, communicate, hey, rotate down, hey, we're in box, we're doing this, this and that against this offensive look. That's why intelligence is more than ever. Hufanga, I know people are like, wow, he's just so instigative. That guy, you can tell, watches so much film because of how that guy just tease off on things and reads thing.

Think of the pick six against the ramps earlier in the year. Like, those are smart points. Kyle Dugger against the Raiders. Two Kyle Dugger mentions, and they're not even, they didn't even make the playoffs, the Patriots, but yeah, yeah, there we go. But that's exactly it is. these guys, it's not just speed. It's not just, it's being balanced at a play.

As far as coverage ability, tackling, but intelligence, intelligence, intelligence. And that comes with coaching and also just how these players play. Nate, I have a question for you. Yeah. It's not fair to ask you this with no notice. Oh, no. And I don't know. It's totally unrelated to this topic.

But just thinking about all this stuff we're talking about here, do you think the league schematically is more homogenous now than it was 20, 25 years ago? Yes, I do. It is. I think so. Why do you think that is? I think it just got distilled down.

It became from three kind of families have become like the main families of the, the offenses, I would say. There's only a couple unique one-offs, I think. Greg Roman had one, even though he came from one family of how they verb, how they, what verbiage they use. I think it's definitely way more homogenous. I think back in, you know, say even when my dad was the head coach in the early two, 2000s.

Like, I mean, there's so many different ways that you went about it. I mean, there's P. About LeBoe versus like Tampa 2. Yeah. Back then. Like they're watching those two types of defenses. Yes. And just, uh, I mean, I think just like, I think what now is coaches were more willing

to share what they share now coaches are more willing to talk, these younger coaches. It, there's more tape than ever. There's more people watching stuff than ever. So everyone realizes that it's better just to have a little bit of everything. And then you lean on to what everybody, I think has. is working from the same toolbox now or a lot of the same tools. And then they just pick them what they use. You know, what, I'm going to use the wrench here.

You know, as far as like maybe an offense, I'm going to use a tight end here, like, what the Cowboys do it. But I think, yeah, I think it's more homogenous than ever. That's how I feel anyways. I really feel there's like, offensively at least two main offensive systems right now. And then, you know, some offshoots of that. And then I think defensively, it feels like there's only two as well. Like that.

And then the Patriot way. So maybe two and a half. So, but I know, I agree with you. I would say yes is my short answer after I just spent 500 words saying yes. That's great. That's what I wanted. Yeah. Thank you.

Yeah. No problem. I just think it's people share more stuff now and people go, oh, you like it like that? Oh, that's good. That's good rather than guarding every, every, oh, we call that snack. Oh, don't tell them we call it snack. I was in a meeting with a Patriots guy and they wouldn't even tell us what they broke down third long as. And it's like now, it's no longer like that.

that. Like, it's just, guys just talk now in a good way. And I think that's why it looks how it does. The information is also just so much more accessible. What you can pull up, I mean, any coach in the NFL can go to PFF Ultimate or whatever database they use. And it's like, I want to look up every play where the Niners used motion on third and seven while Kyle Ushack was in the slot.

And you can pull it up in three seconds. Yep. That would have taken two days, 20 years ago. Oh, a lot of hours. I'm having to hand crank some of those cutups, like, when I was at pit. as a GA. Yeah, those,

anything like that. I want every time the safety rotated down was one I had to do. Like, Laning Collins when he was in the draft. I want every time that he's a single high safety because he was so much a box player.

Every time he's a single high safety. So I went through every single Alabama game and just tagged. Tagged every time that dude was in the post. And then I had to like have a final caveat. It's like, what if they've jet motion? They're like, just tag everyone.

I was like, okay, okay. But that's what it used to be. Now it's just three clicks and I'm done. Paul, do you got any more? I have a million more. Do you? No, I have a few more.

Here's one for the Eagles. And this is not a new one, but can I hit it anyway? The free agent market you see in February is not the free agent market you see in August. And this is the James Bradbury story. Right. Because James Bradbury... It will involve Joseph. Which will involve Joseph, Nandaman King Sub.

But I think Bradbury, I mean, like Joseph and Sue were fine. But Bradbury is like, he was my all-protee. Yeah, he's having that kind of season for one year and $7 million for a guy who literally any team in the league with cap space could have got for a seventh-th grade. Do you know what his cap-it is this year? I'm sure they used void a little year. So I'm sure it's like two and a half. It's $2 million. There you go.

For an all-pro corner that anyone could have had. Now. And he was, I mean, he was good, you guys. He was good. He was very good in 2020. He was still good last year. He was fine. But he's a legit starting NFL cornerback who was not on the market at the beginning of the season.

And one lesson is just, hey, save some money. Put it away. Put it in a sock drawer. You might need it come July. But number two, this is a lesson for me to trash the Chicago Bears, Robert May. Yeah, let's do it. Do you know why? Do you know what my example here is?

Trading for Chase Claypool. It is trading for Chase Claypool. because one of the arguments I heard from people who were very mad that I criticized the bear's trading for Chase. People is, oh, the wide receiver market coming up is terrible in free agency. We don't know. There's no one out there. When the answer is we have no idea who's going to be out there available. Who thought Devante Adams and Tyreek Hill were going to get traded last off season?

I said, even if you say that there's nobody available with the 37th pick or there's nobody available in the free agent market, those aren't your only two options with the 35th pick in the draft. It can become a lot of things. Yes, we have no idea what that's going to be. And so I think, like, I'm not saying leave holes on your roster and just say, I will figure it out in July. But I think be realistic about what you see around the NFL. And this is part of the job of being a GM is looking at other teams and say, okay. Right.

Like, league awareness of what other teams' cap situations are in terms of how they manage their rosters, in terms of who's likely to come available. Like, if you're, if I can do that stuff, and I'm not perfect by any means, but I can do a reasonable job of it. I damn sure guarantee people with better intel than me can do it inside of the league. So I think that's part of the job that I think people don't necessarily see when they're approaching an offseason. If the Eagles win the Super Bowl this year, both of their Super Bowl winning rosters will involve trading for a defensive back in August. In 2017, they traded for Ronald Darby on August 11th.

And I remember when they did it, I was like, this might be like the last piece of a super bowl. Bowl caliber team. And people were like, really? I was like, yeah, I think so. And then they destroyed the league and won the Super Bowl. They traded for CJ Gardner Johnson on August 30th. Like this, they are never done trying to figure out what they can add to this thing. Yeah. That's how it is. Pieces of flare everywhere on the Eagles roster. I love that. I love that when, uh, during the Eagles broadcast this week, Moose Johnson was like, how did the Eagles get CJ Gardner Johnson for nothing? And I'm like, why do you think they got him for nothing, Moose?

Like, what, why do you think the Saints just decided three days before the season that they didn't want to keep a guy around? What could have happened? What might have impacted the Saints thinking? Is there anything? Just cause. They just wanted to give Howie a favor, you know? That's exactly what it is. Howie, beloved around the NFL, I'm sure.

I'm sure. I'm sure. But that's such a great point, though, on how the NFL season is just in parts. I mean, just think about your, you know, quarterly awards. Bill and how much they change from every four weeks. I mean, it's, it's ridiculous how much. It's such a, not only just a week to week league. It's a kind of a quarter to quarter league.

Think about DAC. Think about DAC. And just, Doc's last two weeks. Jack went from, oh my God, this guy might be elite to trade them in a week. But no, that's, but that just speaking to that is just that the good teams are never done. The Rams last year, trading for Von Miller and getting OBJ.

like that that stuff like that just turn like it's all tying into turning over every stone and never being settled and not saying yes we're good enough like now we're you're never good enough injuries can happen bills lost von miller do you think they want some other pieces but that's just how they're built like that's just that's just how these teams have to operate because uh or the good teams have to operate is just finding those little hidden edges this is the hidden edge this is that one percent or if you signed a all pro corner you know that for seven million dollars that that's more than 1%. That's a few more percentage points than that. Yes.

The last one I had very quickly before we get out of here. Defensive linemen kind of as the defensive version of what we talk about with the playmakers, do not be afraid to throw resources at your past rushing spots. Yeah. Yeah. Defensive line spending to the cap this season. Here are the ranks of the five teams that are currently left in defensive line spending to the cap this year. Chiefs are first, the Bengals are third, the Eagles are fourth, and the Niners are fifth.

So four of the top five teams. And even that is skewed because Asan Reddick is listed as a linebacker. Jordan Davis is on a rookie contract. Nick Bose is still on a rookie contract. So the amount of resources that these teams have pumped into their past rushing spots. Troy Hendrickson is a huge deal. DJ Reader is a huge deal. Sam Hubbard's on an extension.

Chris Jones is on a massive extension. George Carlopters is a first round pick. Javon Hargrave is a huge free agent. Fletcher Cox is a first round pick. Brandon Graham is a first round pick. Huge contract for Hassan Reddick. The Niners, obviously, you have Bosa. Even Ebukam is on like an $8 million a year deal.

Like, they've just pumped resources at all four of these teams into those spots. And you feel it when you're watching those teams right now. And that's the last one because I thought that was stark. In fact, the four of the top five teams are still the ones that are left. Who is the fifth? New York Jets. Well, you can't win them all this, buddy. It boils down to here on the athletic football show.

But no, I mean, the Jets defense is really good. It was really, really good. It was really, really good. It was a playoff caliber defense. No, it's, that's a great one. That makes sense, too, is that I think there's a misconception that it's like, oh, I should say misconception. I think people are becoming more smart about this, but it's, oh, yeah, it's just the four guys.

It's just your starting four. It's like, no, you got rotate these guys. Yes, you need an ace. Yes, the Nick Bose has really helped, but you need other dudes that, you know, situational guys. You need first and second down guys. You need third down guys. You need designated pass rusher types. You need, you know, stout run types. I think that that absolutely makes sense because there's only so many guys that are true three down types and can rush the passer. So let's keep them fresh. They're going to be. I also, yeah, I think that these, using resources on these players,

I do think that pass rushing ability and traits and numbers travel. I think it is more predictable than other positions. If you look at the underlying pass rush metrics of, the Trey Hendrickson contract, what Hassan Redick was doing, all of these guys, they've traveled. They have traveled when they've gotten bigger roles. So I think that that position has become easier to say, I know that guy's good. I'm going to spend a lot on him. And I think we have a lot of examples of that. We'll talk about coaching dependency in which positions, you know.

Yeah, Sephora and I are an exception because they kind of get a little boost from their guys. But those guys can be on an island and do what they want to do a lot of the time. So it makes a lot of sense that travels. That's the Millsap doctrine. Yes. That's the small sample size, you know, as the bigger, more reps they get, which is actually kind of holding true. Nuwosu is one of those. Yep.

Obu from what the Texans had a decent year. But no, same thing. That travels. That makes a lot of sense because it's always needed. No matter what your scheme is, rushing the passer and that types of stuff always matters. All right. Barnwell's got to go. So that's all we got.

You kick me off the podcast. That was fantastic. Really, really appreciate you guys doing that. Always love having the three of us together and just shooting the shit. Really enjoyed it. Hope you guys also enjoyed it. We will be back a little bit later this week. Me and Nate Will with our conference championship game preview, which I'm very excited about.

So please come back and check that out. Barnwall, where can the people read you, listen to you, all that good stuff? ESPN, various ESPN entities. If you put on ESPN 24-7, I will be on eventually. If you go to ESPN.com, I'll eventually show up. If you listen to every ESPN podcast, eventually mine will pop up. But obviously, please continue to support these fine men as they labor their way through the remainder of the NFL season. Thanks, buddy.

All right, that's all we got for today. Please subscribe to the podcast. If you have not, please rate and review the show. If you haven't, a lot of you guys have left Apple podcast reviews. I really appreciate it. If you want to, I would consider it a personal favor. It would mean a lot to me. So please go do that.

If you have not and you like the show, please subscribe to the YouTube channel. We've done live recap shows every week, but we'll do one on Sunday nights. They've been a blast, so come hang out after those games. In the meantime, really appreciate you guys listening. We will talk to you soon. Hey, Nate, who is the worst member of the NWO? This was the Athletic Football Show.