The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Lessons learned from the NFL's best defenses of 2022

Episode Date: June 30, 2023

What lessons can we take from last season's best defenses and apply to this season? Diante Lee joins Robert Mays and Nate Tice to answer that question on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Nate on Twitter: @Nate_TiceFollow Diante on Twitter: @DianteLeeFBSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeThis episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/MAYS and get on your way to being your best self. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome. The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. Earlier this week, we did the lessons that we learned rewatching and studying the best offenses from 2022. Well, there's only one place we can go from there. Today is the defensive edition of that show.

We're going to do the lessons that we have learned from watching, studying, rewatching, the best defenses from last season here to help me do that. two wonderful guests. First of all, it's my good friend, Nate Tyson. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing well. You said there's only one way to go with this. I was about to cut you off and go, special teams. That's what we're going to go with. But no, talk about the defenses, of course. By the way, how to throw this a little factoid in there that I found when we were doing the study of Super Bowl champions and the roster makeups was, I believe it was the 2016 Patriots. I think that's what it was at top of my head. Only team to have the first and second team

special teams all pro on their team. Matthew Slater and Nate Ebner. Sorry, I had to throw that fact on it. Maybe that's the secret sauce that we've been missing. Maybe that's what we should have tabbed into a little bit more. You need an all pro special teamer. I mean, if you look at those old Patriots teams, there's correlation there. That's got to be the answer.

I'm not sure that's correlation. I think that's just having it all, the all pro special teams guy every single year for two decades. Yeah. But then get the second team in that one year. So they had both on that one season. So I thought that was pretty interesting. But other than that, doing great, you got to see my one gallon water bottle before this show.

It was a delight in the pre-show. I took a picture of it just in case I ever need that. Just like throw it out there. I'm still happy I bought that. That was a nice surprise for myself. It was an early birthday present for myself. So I was very happy, again, a nice surprise. Forgot I ordered it.

And it came in the mail. Great. Awesome. Love it. But doing very well. It's June 29th. I think that at some point over the next couple weeks, we may be dry enough in terms of content where we can try out the, was Matthew Slater, the real call?

of the Patriots dynasty. It's not Belichick. It's not Brady. It's actually Matthew Slater. So we're getting ideas come from everywhere. We're getting there. Ideas come from everywhere. Also joining us today, thrilled to have him on for this discussion. Not sure we could have this discussion properly without having him on the show from the athletic. It's our guy, Deonté Lee. Deonté, how you doing, bud? The only note I have on that conversation is I don't know if there's any friend I have who who was attacked like adults parenting more aggressively than Nate Tice. And that hydration machine that we'll call that water jug is just more confirmation of that fact. It's a new leaf.

A new leaf I've turned. And it's been wonderful, but I am, I'm full-blown dad mode. I've gotten so many new clothes. My whole wardrobe's already changed. I've aged 10 years and 10 months. All right. Before we get started, and we're going to let Deonti kick this off with his first lesson, just for context. We didn't do this on the offenses show.

I thought it might be useful to do it here. Here are the 10 top defenses from the last season. by weighted DVOA, which is what Nate was using a little bit. I think it is a useful barometer for this conversation. Just so people know going in some of the teams we might be talking about. Number one, the New England Patriots. Number two, the San Francisco 49ers. Three was the Jets.

Four was the Saints. After a rough start to the season, they came roaring back in the second half. Five was the Ravens, which I think is an interesting inclusion here. Six is the Cowboys. Seven was Washington. eight Buffalo, nine Eagles, ten Steelers. So we're talking about the best defenses in the league. Those are some of the ones that we're going to be discussing.

So Deontay, asking you, point blank, if you're going back and studying some of these teams, looking at some of these teams, rewatching some of them, what would be your number one lesson from going back and going through that exercise? I said it pre-show, and this is actually, I might present this as a question because I'm interested to hear how Nate contextualizes watching some of the best defenses in NFL this past year, but going back and looking at things structurally, philosophically, et cetera, et cetera, one of the things that I came away questioning is, has there ever been an era of football where the run game and past game feels more divorced in terms of what you need

to do to stop both? You know, as I was watching the drop back game and, you know, you look at teams that are talented but maybe struggle in certain situations, and I'm looking at maybe some of these more static defenses have a harder times and positions where things get more game planning. You know, Nate is obviously really good at pointing stuff like that out. I just kept walking away with like, are we out of an era where you can think whole hog defensively when you talk about structure? Like, oh, we want to talk about playing defense a certain way because this helps us against play action and outside runs and the drop back pass game.

And this is what we do to quit game. And it's, I think, is becoming more and more a world of we have to have a particular answer for this. This is how we solve X problem. And then we get, you know, this other problem that comes up, we have this particular answer. I think that offense has obviously gone through that. I think over the last decade and a half. And I think that I'm starting to see that pop up more and more often with defense now than I ever had before. So give me an example of that. Give me something where there necessarily isn't a kind of blanket answer to a problem and they're more divergent than they used to be.

22 Buffalo Bills, I would say is a perfect example of this. You think about the Sean McDermott style of defense, you know, Leslie Fraser obviously calling it and you look at some of their metrics, right? And you look at the fact that they're pretty good at getting TFLs in the run game, even though we think of them as a team that doesn't blitz all that often. They're not all that aggressive. And the reason why is it's a very old school philosophy. You show up with more than one tight end on the field.

We are spinning down and playing single high. And our defensive linemen are just getting as far up the field as they possibly can and our linebackers are cleaning it up. They do a really good job at getting offenses into third and medium, third and long situations, but they don't perform as well by the data as you would expect. And you turn on the film and you look at them play and it's like, well, the quarterback knows exactly where all the holes in the defense are because you know they're going to be playing quarters. You know they're going to be playing quarter quarter half. You don't have to worry about them sending pressure. And then some of the answers that they have

are so extreme in the other direction, right, as far as like, we're going to sit. and play cover one. We're going to try to eat up the back with these certain blitzes and play man coverage. And that's stuff that we've been seeing in the NFL since the 80s. You know, like that's like old barefront stuff philosophically. So I kept walking away from those types of situations and a defense specifically like that thinking, can you really live that way if you don't have an extreme talent advantage at corner or on the edge?

And I don't know that that exists. I don't know that that world exists in the NFL anymore. Yeah. I would look at from even an offense perspective is I think defenses have gotten really good. And some of my points tie into this about starting in that same shell, but we always talk about the quarter shell and getting into different things from there. So what you're saying, answering the different problems that solved, I feel like that's where that quarters look, that defenses are kind of like defaulting into their base look,

which makes sense. That's base defense, right? I mean, not based personnel, but standard defensive install. I'm sure, Dea, you've done this a million times. That's what you're going to start with and then move and rotate away from that. I think defenses are now the menu is more expanded for more defensive quarteraires, if that makes sense. There's not teams that are just Legion of booming it or, you know, like just cover three and man, every single time. They're actually using all parts of the menu and ordering from different parts of the menu.

That's how I look at it from an offense perspective is that, and my first point will tie into this, is that they're getting to different things, even the teams that major in certain things, their changeups are more expanded. There's more pitches that they throw out. That's how I look at it. So I agree with you that from your perspective, it's so funny we talk about the same things,

but just how we verb our verbiage is so different for how we talk about. But I see the same way. The menu has expanded for more coordinators right now. So, Deonti, are you saying that you think the best defenses are able to solve more problems with one blanket solution or the best defenses are able to be hyper-specific in how they solve problems? It's hyper specificity to me.

When I think about the best example of that, you think about like Cincinnati, right, and what they're able to do to patch over the holes in terms of personnel. And a lot of that is because Luan Rumo has like an almost expert level understanding of here is how an offense is going to attack us specifically in this particular situation based on the matchups we have on the field. Here is our answer. And they are able to execute that week over week. Same thing was like the second half of the year with Baltimore, right?

I think the more that they kind of realized, hey, we can't generate the kind of edge pressure that we would like. Let's get into some more simulated pressures. Let's get into more man coverage. Obviously, I think the chargers in the second half of the year did a little bit of the same of like we can't just sit back and play quarters all day. We can't play two men all day. That's not going to get it done for us in passing downs. We've got to play more cover one. We've got to play a little bit closer to the line of scrimmage.

We've got to get more hands on bodies. And we've got to send more pressure when the situation calls for that. in order to get the results that we're after. So I think that, like I said, defense, I think, is just kind of starting to walk itself more towards, hey, first down, we want to attack things this way. This can still look a lot like the way it looked in the early 2000s, in the 90s, in the 80s, based on the personnel and formations that you're getting. But when you start getting in the second and five plus, you start getting in the third and four plus,

and you can see, yeah, so all these different varied looks, and you've got to be accounting for all the different ways that offenses can attack you, you have to think differently about how you solve your problems. You cannot just show up and say, oh, we'll go from playing three deep to playing quarters. And the offense is just going to be sitting on their hands because they're not going to know what to do with themselves. Those answers exist on offense, so you have to have specific answers on defense. Nope, I love that. Ravens is a great example, especially post-by week.

And that's one of the examples from all of my points, but this ties into this is post-byweek. and everything. One week it's 20% this. One week it's 10% this. They're just running every, because you have to have different answers. And there's more, even in NFL offenses, even though it is copycat and people lean into different things.

And that's why you have to tweak your formulas as well to counter what the offenses are doing. I think your bill's example is another great one because like you said, McDermott and Leslie Frazier used to run like two coverages. So it was easy. And then now they're running simulated pressures out of nowhere. Like Matt Milano's coming on stuff. It's like, where's that coming from? They're running, I'll talk about odd mirror, which, you know, the defensive stuff.

I'm just using a specific term here, but they're throwing in different changeups. And I think that's awesome. I think just as offenses are looking to expand their repertoire, I think defenses are doing the exact same. Even if there are standard coverages, they're just leaning into different stuff. What I thought was interesting is I was trying to find through lines structurally. You know, is there a certain type of defense, whether it's box counts, the types of coverages that you're playing, how much man you're playing, how much you're blitzing. And if you look at the best defenses in the league, Deontay, it's kind of all over the place. Like there isn't one specific structural thing that's become the quickest path to a really good defense.

And I think a really good example of that is what the Vikings looked like last year, where they kind of take this overlay of what we think the defensive meta is. And then you look at their version of it and it's a disaster, like more often than not. And then you look at a team like Dallas, right? A lot of the best defenses in the league, if there is kind of one similarity that we can point to right now, a lot of them were able to defend the run out of pretty light boxes. A lot of the best defenses in the league are six or few guys in the box on more than half of their snaps. The bills, the jets, the Ravens, the Niners, Washington, the Bengals were 13th.

But then Dallas is down there at like 25th. Dallas isn't afraid to throw another body in there, but they do so many other things well. So it was hard for me to find, and you use structure in the first sentence. You said, Deontay, structural through lines that really tied a lot of this stuff together. And I think that gets to what you're saying, where there's a level of special. specificity and kind of situational solutions, situational answers you need where you can't really paint this stuff with a broader brush as you might want to.

Absolutely. I mean, and I think it's counterintuitive to the way that we think about defense, which is why I think the conversation about that side of the ball is going to continue to evolve and change over time because we are so programmed to think. And I think defensive coordinators for so long have been so programmed to think. in order to be a good defense, you have to have a calling card. And now I think it's more and more like the calling card is whatever the hell is going to win on Sunday. That has been more of, that's something that we associate more with offenses, right?

Is if you've got to miss him now. Exactly. It's not as important who you're paying the most. It's getting the ball to the guy that is going to win, right? We think of offense in that way. And the best offenses in the NFL year over year reflect that, right? That's how you solve problems. The teams that you hear Nate and you, Roberts, talk about throughout the season week over week, it's problem solvers, problem solvers, problem solvers.

Defense is not often thought of in that way. It's more like, hey, to stop the run, you're supposed to do X thing. To stop the pass, you go into X thing. And I think it's more and more like, well, conditionally, what exactly is it that an offense is doing the pass of all? If it's overrout, then yeah, you might want to run a little bit more quarters. But if a team is tearing you up up the sideline, playing cover four does you no good. You want to get into two deep. You don't want to play cover two and protect your corners.

And I think that we're seeing more problem solving, more decision-making done on that axis than the old way of, hey, first we've got to start here. And then when we get to this particular situation, we'll get out of this world and go into these very specific two or three calls. And that'll be enough. That's just not enough, I don't think, in this era of football. I got a couple more thoughts on this, but I want to keep us moving. Nate, why don't you try out your first one? and I'm sure we'll revisit this in some way, shape, or form. Yeah, we will because, yeah, some, it's, it's some, some, some of those points that Deontes is making is a lot of stuff that maybe I have points on other points or sub points on other points.

So it's kind of, this could be a lot of fun because I think what Deontes saying is, defenses, I think, too, were always kind of in their true, true families. Like, I'm maybe talking about blitzes later and what's going around the league. I think defenses in the NFL has become more copycat and more universal, just like offenses have. And I think everyone's willing to talk now and everyone's willing to communicate now. But that's a later point, but I agree with Deante. It's really interesting. But to me...

That's why one thing I think is interesting to point out there, if you look at like the coaches specifically who are in charge of these defenses, I think of Jonathan Gannon and Mike McDonald's specifically, the coordinators for the Eagles and the Ravens respectively last year, a lot of the stuff those guys were doing, that's not where they come from. Like, they're not on that tree at all. And this is just, ah, this works. So maybe we should sprinkle some more of that in there. So I think those two examples specifically, I mean, there's no lineage or genealogy that would bring either of those guys to that place.

And this is leading right to my point is that teams, even once that major for years and years in certain things, everybody is kind of running everything now. And I was using it. I'm just going to look at the numbers of the fading of manned coverage in the NFL. Cover one is going to wean down more and more as teams are finding way to run cover their versions of cover two, too high in general, like cover four, cover six. And if you just look at teams in the past that have majored in man coverage, and we're just looking at recent examples. But I'm going to look at just total NFL rates, and I've got two specific examples here. I'm trying to keep this under five minutes on my offense pod. So on first, I'm just looking at first and second down rate because third and fourth down rates are a totally different world.

And I points on that later. But in 2019, the man coverage rate in the NFL and first and second down was 27.6%. Last year is 16.7%. It's dropped 10%. over 10%. Patriots, two teams I want to bring up are the Patriots and the Cowboys. Yep. And that's because. Two I was going to ask you about it.

Where their backgrounds come from? Yep. Because I know I've talked to you about this, Deiante, is that this is the most too high. I've seen Bill Belichick ever run. He ran so much quarters last year. And it might be Steve Belichick or might be male. It might be, you know, other influences there. But on first and second down in 2019, the Patriots ran man coverage nearly 40% of the time.

They ran it under 20%. last year. Half of what they did. In 2021, it was 28%. So it just keeps dropping, dropping. The Cowboys in 2021 ran man coverage on first and second down over 32% of time. Last year, it was just over 20%. So those are guys that lived in man coverage, Dan Quinn and Bill Belichick and his tree. And now they're leaning into different coverages. Patriots ran more quarters than they ever have with a bit more cover two. And the Cowboys lean in the cover two variations and a little more cover three, which is of course what Dan Quinn has run before. And that also makes sense because they run dying personnel. So they have a lot light bodies. So it's loaded up with another body, which is load up the box with the next extra guy to go single high.

But even look at other defenses like the 49ers of Demiko Ryans. They quadrupled their rate in cover two. The Jets under Robert Sal and Jeff Overk, who I thought would run more man coverage because they have this guy named Soss Gardner. No, they doubled their rate of cover six. That was their new change up. And all these things, it's just I think all of this has kind of come together. even the other top defenses that you listed off, Robert, because I went off the same list, is that those, they are all kind of old runners of cover four or too high coverage,

Saints, commanders, bills. Even then I was going to bring up the Ravens defense. They've leaned into more too high stuff as well. So you're seeing everyone kind of run everything now, even the ones that used to major the certain things. So I'm continuing Deontes point here with just more specific specificity. But I just think that stuff is super interesting that even the guy that Belichick, who I associate with man, man, man, man, man coverage, man, double, man double, man. Now it's like, no, run around quarters and cover two.

And I just think that's so cool. They went from 2% cover 4 in 2021 to 10%, 5 times as much. And then cover 2 went up as well. So I just think just continuing Deontes point is that I think it has become a little bit more copycat in a good way and things have become more universal, and whatever, all the teams are running. And right now the meta is too high. And that's what everyone's going to be running.

They're variations of that now. I love the fact that you use those two. And I would say that those are the two guys that you would best see trends changing over time with because they were so staunchly connected to what they did philosophically. And then you see it and then you really see it reinforced with Dan Quinn by going out and getting Mazzie Smith, right? Who was like antithetical to his idea of bare friends. front, cover one.

I just want guys that are getting out of their stance, taking up as much space in the backfield as possible. Now it's more like, well, I want to take a safety out of the box. I need a bigger human being to protect my linebackers then. Yes. You know. It's so important to point out. That's such a great point.

And then on Bill Belichick's side of things, you look at the way that they play 3-4 defense. And for them, I'm sure, for Girot Mayo for Steve Belichick, it's probably an easy sell saying, hey, we're asking all these guys to two-gap anyways. we put all this stuff on the front to solve problems for us in the first place. If we want to play with lighter bodies and still two-gap, you know, lighter bodies on the second level and still two-gap on the first level, well, then we can walk a guy out of the box and protect us a little bit more on play-action passes, on quick game, on more of the perimeter runs.

So all this stuff kind of ties together, and that again gets back to defense is not a matter of hitting the easy button as many times as you can anymore. These are guys who are more focused in ever. on, well, what is the competition doing? We have a particular answer for our competition. It's not just Bill Belichick waiting until third down to get into those bare fronts and putting seven up on the line of scrimmage or spying guys and playing two men. Now we're starting to see that mentality carry itself earlier and earlier and earlier in the offensive series. And that's where I think we're starting to see these interesting things where teams are kind of starting to back off of some

of the things that we would connect them to most in order to find success on early downs. If you look at the numbers in 2021, the Patriots were 27th and the percentage of their defensive snaps where they had six or fewer guys in the box was about 40%. Last year it was 49%. They were 14th. So you go from bottom of the league to just above average. And I think that everything you guys are saying is kind of indicative of that movement. Absolutely. I love how you said it was an easy sell of New England because it's like, oh, we still get the ass kick up front? Okay, cool. That's great. Like you say, that doesn't change anything philosophically or at least mindset-wise up front. It's just you're changing the math and changing the body count on the back seven,

which it matters more and more. Quarterbacks are really freaking good. And these young quarterbacks are really freaking good. I mean, how many AFC quarterbacks do the Patriots have to go against? There used to be, what was the Sabins line about playing Dan Marino? You can't break on the ball. You can't break on the ball against Damarino. Now there's a dozen guys, not saying they're the Damarina caliber, but they can whip that pigskin in there. So, you know, or more.

So that is where it is. These guys are just so good. And the passing concepts have gotten so complex that they have answers for everything. So it's just that it's funny. Now we're getting into the I know what you know what I know stuff. And I think that's really cool that defenses, and this would be my second point later, but defenses are kind of going like, we're going to be a little bit more passive. but not mindset-wise, but more,

we're going to flood the lanes and make you work for it and not sweat so much. I'm trying to get all these kind of perfect play at the perfect time. Well, it's interesting because we were talking about, I remember which show this was on it. We were discussing the Cowboys and how my concern, I think it was the cold take show.

We're like, how are they going to be as good on defense if they can't create as many turnovers? And the answer was, if you become less volatile in the amount of big plays that you're giving up, and that is almost directly correlated to that 10% down. tick and the amount of man coverage that they were using. So I think that they're a perfect example for that exact point.

Deonti, what's your next one here, buddy? My next one, I was really focusing on third and normal. So I categorize that as like three to six. And I'll get to my third and long point as far as like seven to ten after that. But I think third and six, and this gets back to what I was saying in my first point of the amount of variety that's necessary. That is the NFL down. Third, third and four, third and five, third and six.

That's what separates the great. teams from the so-so teams from the not-so good teams, right? And I was really honed in on what the chiefs do to solve their problems, what the Bengals do to solve their problems, and what the Titans do to solve their problems. And I really want to take some time to talk about Shane Bowen in a second, because I think that he's a pretty good reflection of some of the stuff we've talked about early as well. I think that in the thing I took away mainly was the same thing we've been talking about throughout this process, which is that cover one can really, is really best used today as a tool to disguise your intentions to do other things.

And for these three teams that I mentioned, they all play a lot of cover one on third down because it's the league. And that's what you do. Give me the teams one more time. So that will be the Bengals, the Chiefs and the Titans. Gotcha. Okay. That I was focusing on. They all played their number one coverage, non-blitz coverage on third and normal was cover one because this is the league. You got to play tight windows. You know, it's tight window throws and third down. You need to have it. Can't not play man. You're going to have to play man at some point. Exactly. But the common theme that I'm noticing with all of them is higher rates of cover two than just about all the other teams in the league. And we've talked about this with Dan Quinn.

This is an obvious thing with Steve Spagnolo. This has been like the Steve Spagnolo blueprint since he was the Giants DC, right? Is you use the threat of sending pressure and playing man coverage to set up all your two deep rotations. And then you look at Shane Bowen and the Titans, and this has been for the last couple of years, and even with Dean Peas, it's bringing guys from all kinds of angles, dropping guys out from all kinds of angles. And now I go from, I think I'm getting a five-man rush and man coverage to linebackers are dropping out into windows where I can't throw the ball on end breakers anymore. I can't just pump and go on. I can't just pat the ball and go on a fade anymore. And I think that that's been a very effective method for a lot of these defenses that don't have dominant corners.

that might not have top flight A1 edge rushers to still perform at a high level in terms of success rate and defensive EPA in these passing situations. So that's been my big thing is, and it all kind of revolves around this central point that what we considered an easy button for the last 15, 20 years of defense is now really best used as a vehicle to mask your intentions for all the other stuff that allows you to take away what offenses are doing best right now. Structurally, do you think there's something specific about Cover 2 that makes sense? it the right change up from those man looks on third down? Or do you just think it's a change up and that's why it's effective? I think it's most effective because it's such an extreme change of picture from cover one. Dan Quinn and Steve Spagnola obviously do this to a degree that I think is almost

borders on ridiculous at times in terms of dropping the nickel from the line of scrimmage out their disguises are so silly. Making the weak safety look like he's a robber player, but he's really like the Tampa Dropper in Tampa 2. but that's why. It's because you can make cover two out of all these different looks and it never, ever, ever has to look like that's what you're going to do. It's one thing saying, hey, we're going to show a quarter show,

and you can't tell where the quarter side is going to be, where the half side is going to be, you know, the leverage of the nickel, yada, yada, yada, yada. Like, there's value in that. But that, to me, is more of like a base defense type of thing. This is more of, hey, we're showing you the look that every quarterback that has ever played football in this league. has seen since the 70s, and now we're changing the picture rapidly on you.

And you've got to go from, hey, quick slant to the slot, we'll take it. Option route to the back, we'll take it to, okay, now if this guy breaks out, there's still a corner sitting there waiting on them. If I want to take that fade ball, I've got about a three-yard hole that I can fit this into without getting my guy lit up or turning the ball over. It's no longer a fade ball. Exactly. Very different sort of trajectory.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And then that allows you, and now that brings you back to, well, how do you create pressure if you don't have a legitimate all pro pro bowl level pass rusher? It's by buying time. Right. It's by buying time. It's by sending a fourth rusher from an unconventional spot. It's by walking guys up to the line of scrimmage and dropping them out. I think about Dennis Allen for years before, you know, when he had the best versions of that defense with Marcus Williams, Marshaun Lattermore, and Chauncey Gardner Johnson. And the fact that he could walk to Mario Davis up to the line of scrimmage. and create all these different looks. And you have to honor the fact that in spite of how much man they wanted to play on third down, it could be quarters. It could be bracket. It could be any soft two deep shell. So that to me, I think, again, just kind of reinforcing the point.

Cover one has to be a vehicle for you to do other things if you really want to be effective against high-level quarterback playing the league right now. My favorite example of this because I was just re-watching this game today is those two plays from the divisional game between the Cowboys and the Niners, where the linebackers were mugged up and they played cover two. And Fred Warner's running down the pike with CD-LAM on two different plays. It's like, how the fuck, could you ever think that that is how that is going to play out when you look at the pre-sat picture?

That's what's so cool about the athleticism of defenders now is they can do shit like that. It's like, oh, my God. There was like two guys growing up that I knew, like Earlacker. Right. And like Ray Lewis. Right. We were like, okay, yeah, all-world guys. But now, I mean, Fred Warner is too.

But even other teams are, you know, I mean, the Patriots are running some of their big stiffs from the lion scrimmage or they have Kyle Dugger, a safety going from the line of scrimmage all the way back. No, it's, no, that's a great point. And shoot, I'll just kind of add in, like, because this was kind of like a half point I had just in case it came up. But I was going to say simulated pressures aren't going away. Yeah. Their teams are only cranking it up more. You watch college right now. It's everyone's cranking it up.

And what do a lot of teams run behind simulated? It's this cover two. And just what you guys are saying. So just the point you brought up, Deante, and from an offense perspective, why that's such a pain from a quarterback's perspective is if I think I'm getting heated up or, you know, if it's man coverage, I'm like, okay, a single high look, they might be bringing five. As a quarterback, it's like you got two seconds. You got two seconds to make a decision and get rid of the ball. And then if they drop into cover two, then it's all those lanes where the hot throw is or the quicker throw is are gone because now there's bodies everywhere or a flat route. This is the Dennis Allen example you're bringing up.

Greg Williams used to do this as well. They do the two-trap stuff. And so you think you're throwing a hot corner or a hot flat route. And there's a cornerback just waiting there, just blowing that shit up. And it's like there's nothing worse than a quarterback than doing that to your receiver. It's like, ah, sorry. It's where the re took me. But that and that's what teams are just going to do more and more.

And the other benefit of that was you're running cover two, which is the flooding, the flooding the lane, the passing lane coverage is a lot. of times you occupy the running back, even with brushing four, and that's the benefit of simulate pressure, despite the offense's rules, they're like, oh, running back's got that guy. But now they still have seven in the coverage, and it's covered two, and you only have four eligible receivers out. That is, you're already a hand tied behind your back before you get. And then some quarterbacks are fine.

Some concepts are still fine against that, but that takes post-snap analysis. That takes a hard throw. That takes a lot from quarterback. So the best quarterbacks, of course, can do it. but all the ones that are average or worse, that's a lot. And for offensive coordinators, they're getting gamed up. They get gamed up a lot by those looks. My favorite games to watch on that example was Mike McDonald versus the Bengals in the playoffs.

Yep, in the playoffs. It was a master class of controlling what an offense can do in the passing game by manipulating the back. And one of the things that he did that made me start thinking about this even further, I think, made me start thinking about the way that the Steelers played defense for like 15 years. I was like, oh, the nickel is blitzing, you're dropping the weekend, you're playing three deep, three under, okay, you know. Fires out, fires, on fires. 100%. And I bring that up to say that, like, one of the things I'm really noticing is if you're going to bring a guy from distance, from that level of distance,

where all these quarterbacks now are almost hyper trained, like robotically trained to be able to see pressure coming from the wide side of the field and answer it, if you're going to do that, you do have to have more radical changes of the picture now. Yeah. That is the two-trapped stuff. That is all these different Tampa rotations. Explain two trap really quickly. So two trap to me, I think if me and they are looking at it the same way, it's basically playing, it's a five, it could be a five man pressure. You know, it's kind of, it's four, two deep four under, but their rotations are different on both sides of the field. So wherever you're bringing the pressure from, you're going to have a corner sitting in the flat.

And you're going to have a safety over the top because that is the, that is how you're trying to trap that throw. You want the quarterback to see Nicholas Blitzing. I'm throwing the speed out to this open slot receiver. And what would be fire zone, you have a guy that's inside leverage of the slot. So you're just throwing an open air. You think you're beating three void, but it's really two. It's really two. So it's a disguise, but now defenses are only rushing four and doing the same thing.

Exactly. That's where the pain comes from. And the reason why I bring up the rotation and why that's so effective is, usually on the backside, it does look like cover three because you'll have an overhang that's dropping to the flat and a corner that's dropping to the hat. And the safety flying over and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah.

So it's just like that processing speed, you know, it becomes really difficult for you to change your mentality on that that quickly. But that, you know, we're also saying the same thing. Right. It's all, it's about just creating problems for quarterbacks. And even with the CD Lamb example or Fred Warner, one of the reasons why that's such a great play defensively is because as a quarterback, that's my only answer. Yes.

It's the right answer. That's it. That's all I've got. You got a rest of the profession is taken away. You know, I have. Correct. I have half a second now because I've got all this pressure barren on me. By the time I recognize what the coverage shell is, I can only put the ball in one spot.

Oh, and I'm throwing it up against an all pro and probably a future Hall of Famer, you know. So cover two other than checking it down. But if you want to gash a cover two defense, these are the answers for the quarterback. A deep dig route. A seam ball. A deep corner where a corner is a corner. a cornerback is sinking underneath or hit them all the way over the top on a post route.

Those aren't the easiest throws to make for a quarterback and that's why it's a pain. And that's why they do this because it's like, okay, if you beat us, fine. But we're going to make sure that it's a lot of time. We're going to make sure it takes time and it's all mad and difficulty for you. Like that's what they're Tibetan quarterbacks are trying to do over and over. And if we're bringing it all the way back around to what we talked about earlier this week, Nate, if those are how your, all your answers to that are terrible, right? what is a good answer, just pound the shit out of them, right?

And if you can't, then you're in really big trouble. Tying in the conversation we had earlier this week to the conversation we're having. It's funny, this is 2009 NFL. We've gone back 14 years, but just with match rules now are more common than spot drop rules. Really, it's like as far as. So it's even harder. It's even harder. I know.

So because then they go, oh, we'll just run the high loan. And now you guys got matching it. And it's like, yeah. I know. So that's what you have to attack underneath somehow, but that's why quick game only has a limit. There's a limit to quick game. So that's why you have to run the ball. You have to be efficient because this is what defenses are doing.

Even at the most stalwart, single high guys are going, we're going to recover two in quarters now. And you can't beat it. They're just going to keep doing it. It's going to be a pain for you for 60 minutes. Nate, you're up. What's your next one, bud? The next one. God, a lot of these tied together, which I think is really fun.

But blitz rates on passing downs are dropping. And the types of blitzes are getting copied by everybody now. And I want to hear Deante's thoughts on that in a sec. But that's something I've noticed from an offense perspective. But when overall blitz rates kind of they've gone down compared to 2019 and 2020, but actually rose from 2021. But third and fourth down blitz rates just keep dropping every single year. It's just, I mean, honestly, this is tying into everything Deontes said.

And I've hinted at in the show is they're not letting themselves get gashed. It's just the overall philosophy of defenses right now. They're betting on making the quarterback make a mistake, not just with one play. It's not the gash or be gashed. It's over time. It's saying that we'll make them make a mistake if they can't just keep doing this over and over. And really, the example that I looked at more than anyone is Spaggs. Spags is Steve Spagnola for the Kansas State Chiefs.

His overall blitz rate has fallen compared to last year and several years ago. His first and second down blitz rate stayed exactly the same. But the third and fourth down blitz rate dropped five percent. from 2021 and 10% from 2020. The Cowboys dropped 7% from 2021 to 2022. And you just look, I mean, just this is the copycat nature of the week. But also, I'll talk about the types of blitzes that I'm seeing more and more. And I want to kind of get here, Deontes perspective again.

But I mean, just look at that overall, in 2019, overall on the whole NFL, third and fourth down blitz rate was almost 25%. Now it's 20.5%. So it's dropped almost 5%. That's significant. That's several third and fourth downs a game, every game. And so that, that, That's just something I've noticed.

Teams are really going rally and tackle. Make them go underneath rally and tackle or make a hero throw beyond the sticks. That's what they're daring these quarter. They're saying, you're good. We're admitting that you're good. So we're not going to make it harder on ourselves and let you gash us for a 30-yard gain because you wotted up the protection. And I actually do think some of that is because more of these offenses are Shanahan-based. They don't run that typical seven-man protection with seven-step dropback stuff.

The bangles will do it. The chiefs do it a little bit. There's others that do it. But the Shanahan offenses don't major in that. And why that matters is because that's the best way to beat pressure teams. We're going to wot it up and we're going to gash you down the field. That's the Bengals versus the Chiefs in 2021 several times. There's several instances where that happened.

So fewer teams are doing that type of protection. So why make it hard on ourselves and get blocked up and get gashed for a play? No, it's just make it hard on the quarterbacks. And let's flood the zones and limit the yak, make a rally and tackle. So this is continuing just the points that I think this whole show is already making is that defenses are not passive, but making offenses work for it. And this is just another instance of this where it's just like, let's not blitz them. Let's not like make it hard on ourselves. 100% with you.

And I think that, you know, I want to hear what you're seeing as well. But one of the things I'm noticing, especially in you mentioning the protection, and this goes back to simulated pressures and controlling the back, which I know is a conversation we'd have multiple times. When you're trying to get all these guys out in these passing progressions and you're trying to work all these high lows and space defenses out horizontally as much as you can, there's really only so many things you can do in protection. Your answer key is so limited in protection. And that's where I think defensively, like we're talking about being very specific about what you're doing on the back end to answer what offenses are doing to you, a lot of the real creativity. creativity on passing downs is happening up front. And I think that it's undersold just how much of an effect it's had on quarterbacks when you're talking about these elite defenses.

I think one of my favorite examples from last year was watching the 49ers versus the Rams on that Monday night football game where they just beat them down, getting into barefronts with three-man pass-offs. And that's how you beat the protection that you see all across the league that you said is so heavily influenced by the Shanahan Tree guys trying to get five out in the route. You've got to go, most dangerous man, big on big, 5-0, whatever your term is for it. And once you start talking about, hey, I've got my eyes locked in on this guy and it's not like playing an area. You know what that's a lot like?

Man coverage versus zone coverage. Right. And if you're running man coverage on defense, you know what beats you? It's tight splits and a lot of guys passing through traffic. So what do you do on defense? If you're getting man protection, you walk everybody up. So everybody's accounted for. And then I'm going to make a whole bunch of movement and traffic on the interior and dare you to pass it off.

And I'm going to give you that guard, that backside guard that is working on this guy as a twist is happening, seeing somebody flash across his face and thinking, can I really trust that my tackle is about to pick up my guy the way that he's supposed to? Can I afford to be the guy that screws up? And more often than not, when you start talking about looking at these high, level edge rushers that are also playing in schemes that allow them to move, San Francisco being one of them with Nick Bosa, it puts one more layer of stress into the picture. So that's a lot of what I'm seeing is when teams are bringing five, what they really want to do

is just eat up the protection as much as possible and see if they can bring a guy looping. That was basically the entire third down plan. Yeah. It wasn't any more complicated than that. Five down linemen. It's not a linebacker. We've got five legitimate pass rushers. You're going to have to guess where the twist is coming from.

And more often the not teams role. Dallas is very similar, right? I mean, it's a similar sort of idea. Yep. And they, and guess what? They watch film, too. And I bet you they know who's your worst pass blocker is. And I bet you they're going to game them up over and watch.

You want to know how the Cowboys think about a different opposing team's offense? Watch where Michael Parsons. Yes. And where he attacks. They will tell you, do they have no respect for it? So we can, I can just go, oh, the right guard sucks. You know, I can just tell you based on their third and fourth down package, where Parsons is lined up.

No, it's such a good point. I love that man's own with the blocking stuff. That's a great point to bring up about how that ties in together. The Cowboys are another really good example here because, Nate, you talk about their blitz rate dropping, but I guarantee you, I don't have numbers on this. They ran more stunts than any other defense in the NFL last season. So it's a level of creativity that doesn't involve more bodies, but it doesn't tick down the aggressiveness at all.

It just manifests in a slightly different way. And that's where I see the biggest influence from those Seahawk teams from the 2010s is that They bring out all the horses, all the thoroughbreds, and we're just going to game this shit out of you. We don't need the blitz. We're going to rush four. That's another kind of side set I noticed. Not only just less blitz is less drop eight is happening in the NFL. Teams that rush straight four.

It's almost 70% now, and that's a 5% increase from a few years ago. So it's just that's what it is. Teams have are more, it's not the straight, hey, this is our path. We're going straight up the gap. You know, straight down the pipe. No, everyone's gameed up. There's triple man, the three man loops that you're bringing up, just games and twists. And I think that's what it is.

It's just that more guys are asked to pass rush and guys are moved around more willingly. Coaches are more willing to move those guys around. And that's why I think that influence is from those 2000. From the NASCAR package of the Giants, Super Bowl winning teams and then the 2010 Seahawks, that's where you can see their, you know, tree kind of coming down and the rest of the NFL doing that now. It's just, it's a premium. You have to do it now. Like not, I can barely name any teams that don't do it.

It's basically everybody now. But if you're going to blitz less, that's how you have to create chaos. You have to twist and game your guys. So it all ties in together. That's what I think is so fascinating about this stuff. Also, I want to ask some of the blitzes I see more teams do now. Okay, I just got to throw this in because I want to get Deontes thoughts on this. Well, one is the double A gap stuff.

Everybody's doing that now. Oh my God. They used to be like Zimmer and like two other guys. Like Jimi Johnson before he passed. He should do that stuff. Rod Marinelli. Yep. Fair front guys.

Like that's basically it. Everybody doesn't know. Oh my God. Everybody does double A gap stuff, which is where two linebackers are sitting on either side of the center. And usually they game up the center's point and everything. There's other things you can do off of it. But it's really hard on the offense.

It makes them communicate. So I want to see what the offense is counters for it this year are because everyone was doing it to him last year. So you see that a bunch now. That stupid ass five man pressure that you guys do on defense where it's man coverage. But your Britson one linebacker. and the other linebackers green dogging the running back when he blocks. Yes.

That is everyone, only Rex Ryan used to do that. And now everyone does it. And I'm sure there's some other guys that have done it before. But that's how I remember was Rex Ryan doing that. Everybody does that now. And that is such a pain. That is such a pain because it's just playing off the, that's not the defense is a really good protection rules now. The other one is the hug rush from two man.

That's the Devon White special. And then also the, everyone's been watching Belichick film for years and years. in years, and that's the cover zero with all the hot droppers. And different varieties of hot droppers. So you're seeing a little bit more of that now. But it's a copycat league. And we say for offense all the time, it's for the defense too. That's what's going on right now in the NFL.

You know what? Every one of those pressures have in common, they all come from Buddy Ryan. Those are all fair for those are all 46 defense stuff. And you want to know what killed Buddy Ryan was that teams would go, seven-man protection, full slide, big on big, and throw over his guy's heads. If we're in an era of football. Right. If we're in an era of football where nobody wants to do that anymore,

well, then all this 46 stuff is viable again. And that's what you're seeing more and more of on these third down, blitz situations, third and longs. That's one of the reasons why I'm probably so bullish on Vance Joseph in Denver. I'm like, oh, you're giving him some real pass rushing talent. And he can get in third down and long and send guys from ridiculous angles and drop out into this 3-D-3-under stuff. And you actually have to honor it. And you can't make the mistake of throwing that number two because he might pick it off. So you're really squeezing the options there.

And all that 46 stuff, I think gets more and more viable, the more spread out the game gets. Yep. I totally agree. It's so funny how this goes in circles. It really is. I mean, honestly, though, that, what you said with the seven man protection stuff, it is tied in. Like, not a lot of teams are doing it. Like the Cowboys, because Kellan Moore was, well, now he's with the Chargers, but they'll be doing it.

Sean Payton will do it. But those kind of non-Shannahan guys do it. But the Shanahan guys don't use that protection. They just don't. It's not their philosophy. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but that's why you're seeing it more from defenses. It's so fun how it's all tied together.

Deontzee, you're up. Next one? Yep, my next one, and this is really a big point. This is probably the central piece of everything that I've said so far today. So I don't know how much I'll have to add after this. It's just that the NFL, on defense is still a front to back league. It is a front to back league.

We spend all this time and I was one of the guys who came on this show when I was working at PFF and said it and I was so gung-ho about quarters and split safety shells and forcing a quarterback to hold the ball. And there is merit to every last bit of what I said in 2021, how I felt in 2020 and beforehand. But the more of the league that I watched, the more intently I watch, if you're a back-to-front team, you've got to be dominant in cover one. That's right.

That's it. If you can't play man, you're in trouble. Think of some of the teams that inspired that conversation. I think one of the big ones when we were having that coverage versus rush discourse a couple years ago was the Ravens, when they were playing exactly that way. And there are just so fewer teams playing that way that I think it shifts the conversation a little bit. 15 Broncos. They had five legitimate plus coverage players, so you can rush five and play cover one, and you can't do anything about it.

So I think that that's really what I keep coming back to is it's so hard to replicate the teams that are elite in coverage year over year. The variance is just, it's rough on you, I think, trying to look coverage first in that way. But if you can genuinely find a way, not just to go get elite pass rushers, because those are, you know, once in a generation, once every two to three drafts. and if you're a good team, you're not in position to get those guys anyways. It's being able to manipulate what's happening up front. That's the simulated pressure that Nate is talking about. That's getting into these bare looks and running these twists like I was talking about. That's showing the threat of playing cover one to get guys to think that you're bringing pressure so you can play cover two like Robert was talking about.

All of this stuff comes back to on a fundamental level that if you want to be successful on defense year over year, it has to start with the thought of what you can do to maximize your front. And then you answer questions with where you think the ball is going on coverage. It's less so about, hey, we just want to sit in windows on the back end and force guys to check it down. That's old 1985 Bill Parcell's thinking of football. And there's nothing wrong with that. You get in the third and 11, you can play like that all day because you've got the advantage of distance. In this NFL where everybody is efficient on early downs, you better be able to change the picture for them up front.

at least have the threat of doing so to buy yourself some time defensively. I totally agree. It was one of the biggest takeaways I had rewatching these teams over the last couple days. You watch the Cowboys and you watch the Niners and you watch the Jets and even the Patriots last year. Like the way that Josh Uche played and the way that Judon is playing for them and like the snaps they get out of Dietrich Wise and like you don't think about them as a team that's

really devoted a ton of resources to that position group, but then you actually watch it play out and you're like, they're just beating the shit out of people. They're awesome. They're just being this shit out of people. I mean, there's no way the Patriots can be in the team they are, if not for that. Yeah. Right. Where do you think the Patriots finished in pressure rate last year?

Like, we don't talk about them this way, but where do you think they finished? It was fourth. They finished fourth in the league and pressure rate last season. So all most of the teams, and there are a couple of specific examples that fall outside of this. Like the Saints were kind of weird last year. They didn't really get off to the quarterback and they were good on defense. But all these teams, Cowboys, Eagles, Patriots, Jets, Washington. The Niners were 12th.

But when you think about later in the year when they're a little bit healthier and they're cranking it up, they're, they have the best pass rush in the league. Like, this stuff is real. And it's impossible to ignore it when you really watch these guys and feel what it's like. And Buffalo is the other example, right? Like Buffalo losing their teeth at the end of last season is directly correlated to them having fewer horses up front to play the way they did over the first half of the year. Exactly it. Everybody has to rush the passer. And this was, I actually had kind of a point on this, but it was, I was just kind of dovetail.

off of it is that yeah, you have to get after the past where you're front four and that's how you have to win. Like that's just that's just it. And that puts a premium on the front. And I mean, that's always kind of been in my football dogma. It was just I have always been up front on offense and defense. But also it's just it's that's just kind of how you have to like the quickest way to get to the quarterback is up front, you know, to affect the quarterback is don't let them get rid of

the ball. And, and but also having tied into that and I think we went so far away, uh, one way into the light bodies. And this is bringing up even the Cowboys example of Macy Smith is I think all these teams need one nose. One guy that gets you through those first and second downs. I think that it became such a, oh, every down's a passing down now. And then now is the meta is going like, oh, actually the run game is pretty important.

It's going, well, we need a guy that can stop that run. And I think that's, there's going to be a premium on that. I think we've seen in the last couple drafts. I think we're seeing in the free agency. But I think that's not going away as well as that you need about seven guys that can get after the quarterback and one guy that can hold up in two gap and keep your boxes clean and keep your linebackers clean. I think that that's another kind of half point to go off of this one. When I was watching those fronts, just the way they were getting after the passer, it's also what

they do on rundowns. And you look at the run defense success rate on early downs for the teams that we're talking about. Niners were second, Patriots were sixth, Washington was fifth, the jets were eighth, the Cowboys who we think, you know, their run defense can be spotty. They were ninth. They were top 10 in success rate on early downs. The Ravens were 11th. The Eagles were 16th. They were just above average. We saw how that ultimately played out for them late in the season. But for the most part, all of these teams are in that conversation because of how they're built up front. I mean, first and second down run rate is going to be something keeping eye on throughout this year, especially, you know, running back run rate or success around first

and second down on how defense to stop it because there is something to it on both sides of the ball. De out I was looking at that data specifically and there's a commonality there. They're all Legion of Boom, Belichick, or old Rex Ryan tree guys. Yeah. And those are all staunch front to back thinkers. Yeah. Yeah. They are right. They're all front seven guys.

Yeah. Hey, the victors, hey, the victors hold the pen. The victors hold the pen. They write history. So we see who comes out on the other end. Nate, you're talking about the idea of like lighter bodies and playing a little bit lighter. And Dea,

I think that you discussing like, oh, you know, more too high stuff and all of this. I think over the last three or four years, there's been like an intellectualization of defense in a way where I think I think it's gone too far. And that was kind of one of my biggest takeaways when going back and rewatching these teams.

And it's so simple and it's so stupid. But I think that if you line up all the teams in the NFL, I think the two best tackling teams in the league last year when you go back and rewatch it were probably the Niners and the Patriots when you watch them play. And I think the Cowboys were very much in that conversation. I was rewatching that Dallas game and just like the plays like Drake Lee and what Greenlaw was making in space, but not just him. Like the defensive backs and the way that they play.

And I watched the Patriots just beat the. shit out of the lions earlier today. And Miles Bryant made a tackle in space in like the first drive of the game. And then Kyle Dugger did it like two plays later. These teams just play that way. There's a physicality to it. There's a mindset to it. And beyond the resources you spend

on the front, can you get your front to uniformly play that way? When you watch the best defenses consistently, that's one of the things that just seeps out of who they are. The guy that I come back to in Dallas is Dorrance Armstrong. Dorrance Armstrong makes $6 million dollars a year.

And you watch Doran's Armstrong play, play in and play out. He's never going to be an all pro. He's not that kind of guy with those kind of traits. But the way that he plays, that to me embodies why the Cowboys are so good on defense. Throw out all the scheme stuff we're talking about, all the structural philosophical shit we're discussing. How does it feel when you watch these teams play? And I think that is one of the major through lines I kept coming back to when I was rewatching all of them. Right.

Oh, that's the chiefs. That's it. That was defense for me, man. Back to the fundamentals. Look at, I mean, look at what the chiefs. They went through a whole philosophical change. Just look at the safety switch out they did. They went from Honey Badger to Justin Reed.

And they just went, because they went, we're tired of not tackling. Yeah. Because we're, yes, you're going to gash us and get that seven-yard game, but let's keep it at seven yards. Not make it 27. Not 18. Yes. And especially if you're going to flood the coverage with zones and have so many bodies out there that they better rally and tackle right away because that's the whole philosophy. It's about keeping everything

underneath. So that all ties in together. But no, I think that I think that's exactly it. It's like, yeah, we have to win with speed and aggression, but we have to be sound when we do it as well. There's nothing more fundamental in football than what? Tackling. Tackling. That's exactly it. So I think that that really speaks volumes about what the best defenses are doing. I look at the teams that were frustrating to watch last year at times. The three that jump out to me are Cleveland, the Packers, and then the Chargers at times earlier in the season. And these are teams that have like direct DNA ties to a lot of the teams we're talking about structurally. But when you watch them play, there's just something missing.

There's something missing from the physicality and kind of the nuts and bolts of the way that they play defense. And it's obvious. When you see it, when you feel it, when you watch it, you can feel it. You can feel the difference. And that's why I'm excited to watch what the Browns could look like this year, because I think going from what they had to Jim Schwartz, beyond the structural differences that we're going to see, I have a feeling. that it's going to feel different to watch them play defense this year. Miles Garrett with Jim Schwartz hyping them up. Oh, my God.

Like, it's going to be scary. I was just going to bring up Jim Schwartz to say, like, that was just such a clear message philosophically that to go get a coach that would probably rather die than have a defensive coordinator job coaching guys who can't tackle. Yes. Yes. But back to your point, Robert, the only other thing I wanted to add to,

it. And it's really, this is, this takes no rocket scientist to figure out why the 49ers have been, like, because it because it seems so obvious. It's true. No, but this is what I harp on. Like, this is when Nate knows this, because I'll talk to our colleagues about it all the time. When I talk about the 49ers, it's almost never about like the too high stuff. Exactly. Are they playing three robber? Are they playing quarters? The thing I am constantly harping on is how intimidated you can tell their opponents are based on the way they get to the football. 100%.

That Thursday night game when they played the Seahawks, even though it was a close game, you can see the Seahawks offensive players snap after snap decide, I don't want to do this anymore. You've beaten it out of us. We don't want this contact any longer. And that has a real effect. When you watch the Cowboys on offense who are so used to being able to generate space

and get these easy completions and turn, catch, and run, and get these easy first nail conversions, and all of a sudden a throw on a hitch out into the seam, which is usually a nine-yard gain, now it's Drake Greenwald chasing me inside out. And he's the exact guy. I don't think I want to take that guy on. I'd much rather not be tackled.

The sideline looks like a much better proposition than that extra two and a half yards. Every team has those guys that are like one tier down from the star level players but embody the way that what we're talking about here, the way these teams play. Drake Lee-in-law is that guy to me for the Niners. Quincy Williams is that guy for me with the Jets. Like, every single team has, like, a handful of them.

It's just like, even if we're not the stars on this team, this is going to be the way that we play football. And that is what good defense looks like. All right. You want to. It was seven of them on the 49ers. Yes. It was Cam Chancellor. Jimmy Ward in the slot.

You need one guy who is just a little off in the head. Yes. Yes. To make your defense work. Hey, hey, Deontay, what positions do you play in college, aren't you? I'm back. man, there's a reason why I spend so much time talking about the front, man. Please don't come watch me, coach.

If you want to keep the high opinion of me, you got some, please don't watch you coach, man. Nate, do you want to bring some, like, actual intellectual hefts to the end of this conversation? Do you have one more point do you want to make? Yeah, I'll just give a couple of half points. It's kind of interesting notes. But again, this is something we talked about last year, and I think, or really a lot of people have noticed, and I think it's just anyone notice in the league, is that versatility.

We talk about on offense, but on defense as well, especially you just look at who's playing in the slot, but more teams are basing out a nickel, more teams are basing out a dime as well. So more of those merging of body types of the 215 to 230 pounders, which it's just more and more teams are willing to do it. Your duggers, your curses. Like those are the guys that jump out to me.

Cowboys is a good example. Cowboys got 20 of them. You know, the Texans even have Jaywin Petrie, you know, Jimmy Ward, all these guys. So, but it's, you know, it comes down to if you're going to run too high, well, the slots now in the run fit. So you better be able to tackle and they better be able to blitz. And then the guys up front there will be versatile and rushing the passenger as well.

And then my other half point and I referenced this was the odd mirror thing. And the odd mirror is just one specific of play call that you see on third and fourth down. And what it is is you're rushing three, but you have a mirror. This is the play that the bills ran against the chiefs in the regular season and it forced the interception. A lot of people broke it down and everything. But that play is you see it a lot in college. because you see a lot of running quarterbacks in college, but guess what's happening in the NFL? Ben Sillac made this point on our offensive show, but scramble rate in 2019 was 4.1%.

It's gone up half a percentage point to this year in 2022, or last year, I should say. On third and fourth down, it's got up a whole percentage point for just scramble rates. And EPA, of course, has gone up as well. So we have to have answers. If quarterbacks are just going one to scramble, well, we have to have an answer for that. So it's flood the passing lanes, drop eight. Really, it's more seven and a half. dropping them. And then we have the mirror guy. So they're rushing three and one linebacker or one

defender, he reads where the quarterback breaks contain. And that's kind of the gist of the play. The defensive ends can have a two-way rush and go any which way. They kind of bait the quarterback to go one which way because that's how the quarterback reads it. And then they come around. They mirror the quarterback. But I think you're going to see more teams doing varieties of that. And if the bills who were so like, oh, we only run a couple coverages, they're one of the teams already doing that. Just wait. It's only more and more teams. teams are going to run just this little variation. So keep an eye on that coverage.

I'm sure Deonte knows that play a little bit as well because it's very effective, I'm sure, in high school as well, when you got some runaround quarterbacks that you can bait on third points out. Oh, yeah. Two men. I have one thing to say before I check out, just a guy to watch. And it's a shitty situation because the team, I think, is headed towards rebuilding. And I mentioned them earlier, but it's Shane Bowen in Tennessee.

Yeah. He might be my favorite non-Demico Ryan's. guy to watch right now because of what he's willing to do to be successful defensively. You see the pressures, literally anything. The pressures, the simulated pressures and creepers, all the different coverage rotations, the different coverage shells that you'll see from them. And it made me want to go and look at what his lineage is. And I was like, oh, I see.

A guy that worked for guys that have worked for Rob Ryan, or excuse me, Rex Ryan, and for Bill Belichick. He's learned under Romeo Crenel. He's learned under Mike Vrable. You know, he's learned under Dean Pees. These are guys who are three, four. I am sending pressure from whatever angle gets me a tackle type of philosophy. And I think it's reflected in the way they play and why I think they've been able to play over their heads in 2020 and the year before, despite what I think that everybody recognizes that they lack outside of Kevin Byard and Jeffrey Simmons.

That they are always playing above their heads. And it's because of what they're able to do with their coverages, with their pressures, with those creepers and all the very, variety that you get from them defensively. So that's a guy that I definitely have my eye on going into 2023 and beyond. When I was talking to coaches last year, last summer, about what they were looking at last offseason, the Tennessee Titans defense came up, I think, as much or more than any team or any specific coach. They just consistent.

They get the most other guys. So Shane Bowen is not only a guy that you're watching, Dea, but a guy that I think a lot of coaches around the NFL were watching. Let's say that team sucks this year and some for whatever reason a bunch of guys get canned. I think it'll take 10 minutes for him to get a job. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's the best ones to watch last year, the ones that keep adapting.

That's why the Patriots are so much fun to watch last year. But then obviously they're good. But Mike McDonald for the Ravens, he adapted his coverages after their by week, like greatly so. Even Staley, just totally throwing the kitchen sink in the second half of the year. But, yeah, Vone's another good one. all those guys that are adapting what they do based on what they have and what they're going against are really fun to watch because it's it's cool to see what they think each week. All right. That was fun as hell.

That was great. That was great. That is all that we have for today. Sincerely appreciate you guys stopping by, spending the time with us. If you have not listened to the offensive version of this show, that came out earlier this week. Nate and I talked with Ben Solac from the Ringer about, again, some of the lessons we learned studying, rewatching the best offensive. in the NFL. If you have not listened to that, I highly encourage you to check it out. We're going to be back on Monday with another mailbag. Very excited about that. Until then,

appreciate you guys listening. Enjoy your weekend. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.