The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Lessons to take away from this season's Chiefs, 49ers, Ravens and Lions, with Bill Barnwell; Plus, Mike Macdonald to the Seahawks, Dan Quinn to the Commanders, and more from the coaching carousel

Episode Date: February 2, 2024

Imitation is the greatest form of flattery, right? So how can the other 28 teams imitate the Chiefs, 49ers, Ravens and Lions? And what can we in the media and football-loving world learn from them, too? ESPN's Bill Barnwell joins Robert Mays and Nate Tice to go over those lessons on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Plus, Robert and Nate break down the latest from the coaching cycle, including the Seahawks hiring Mike Macdonald and the Commanders hiring Dan Quinn.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Nate on Twitter: @Nate_TiceFollow Bill on Twitter: @billbarnwellSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today. It's my good friend Nate Tyson. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing very well. We're not wearing a hat, which is very weird for me because I have to get it.

We're not doing this on video, so you don't have to worry about it because Barnabro's joining us a little bit later and he's not going to be on video. So I have to get a haircut at this probably the longest since lockdown that I've gone without a haircut. So I can't wear the hat because I have to get the haircut. You know what I mean? So it's got, you know, can't have the hat hair going in. I've made that mistake before. But I'm doing very well. Excite for Barwell to join us, too.

Always a treat. Always a treat when we get the trio. When I get to be the poochy today, she and scratchy. It's always fantastic. Barlow's going to come on a little bit later. We're going to do a show that we've done the last couple years that I like doing. Just the lessons we can learn from how the final four teams were built, what their strengths were, some of the bigger picture takeaways from the best teams in the NFL this season.

I think it's a really instructive exercise. It's one that I've really come to love over the last. couple years. So he's going to join us for that in a little bit. Before we dig into that, though, we've got a lot of coaching news that we have not been able to hit in any capacity that deserves hitting. We have two head coach hires that have taken place over the last 24 hours or so, starting with the Washington football franchise landing on Dan Quinn as their next head coach as they take this step into really the next era, turning the page from the Dan Snyder, debacle into the new ownership group, Adam Peters being the GM, second overall pick. And

and now Dan Quinn is the man to lead that next version of the Washington football team. What do you think of this? Well, the Ben Johnson news, I think, is relevant to this as well. Ben Johnson returning to Detroit as offensive coordinator and kind of felt Washington had a appetizing kind of structure, I guess, appetizing resources, you know, for a coach to go there. Number two pick, you mentioned, which I think is huge in this draft where there are for sure two quarterbacks. I think are worthy of those top two picks and maybe a third. And on top of it, I think they have salary cap resources. They have some interesting players as well, offense and defense. But it just seems that Johnson is, Johnson wants to be picky and then ends up with Dan Quinn. And it was the last

coach to get hired. And that always just feels particular. You know, sometimes that is because they have to wait to that team loses, the Super Bowl, Conference championship game, et cetera, et cetera. And that's what this one felt like when the Lions lost. But then it was a state. Stiking and Ganon didn't get hired until after the Super Bowl was over. Technically. Shoot. When Quinn got hired in Atlanta, it was after the Seahawks lost to the Patriots. And so again, it just was, but this time, you know, Cowboys lost in a wildcard around.

You know, when that kind of happens, it feels like, okay, this was maybe the backup action, but option. But we'll say, having said all that, I would say Quinn will bring energy. I think it's at least that will come to this franchise that needs just a total mouthwash. I think the owner wants that. I also think they have that number two pick, which I think will be interesting with a, defensive coach that may or may not be calling plays, but he can have an interesting quarterback with him, which I think can lead to something. But I also, he has to nail the offense coordinator or higher. I think more than anything, which I think any defensive coach has to, but I think in

particular, Dan Quinn, I believe that he did in his first go around in Atlanta, Kyle Shanahan. He sure has helped it. And it's Sark. So I think he has some pedigree doing this. He has a good eye for these offensive coaches. So hopefully he can do it again in Washington. But I don't know. I'm not, I felt like there's a lot of like, oh, geez, Dan Quinn and everything. It's like, I don't know. I think it's actually an okay hire concerning the circumstances. I understand how they landed at this point. I also understand being a Washington fan and being disappointed because there's a chance

you had the next hot shot offensive guy to pair with the quarterback that year going to draft. And you watch what that lion's offense has been over the last couple years, even though the way they finished, the lion's offense played well enough to win that game and well enough to go to the Super Bowl. The way the Cowboys finished, they got blown off the field by Jordan Lovin. Packers offense. So all of those factors being considered, I get being a fan of this team. This is really the first moment of letdown you've had in like eight months since the team was picked. Since the team was sold, this is really the first moment as a Washington fan. You were like,

oh, man, really? It was Dan Quinn and not Ben Johnson? They felt hope again. And they just got the Ben Johnson thing is fascinating. I think both sides try to get their story out there very quickly. Adam Schaeffer reported pretty quickly. There was some language about his asking price. And there has been some murmurs about how his first interview there wasn't all that impressive. So I think both sides have tried to get out in front of this a little bit. But I understand him wanting to be picky and him wanting to wait for the right opportunity and thinking, I'm going to be just fine. These are going to keep coming along. I can wait for that Jim Harbaugh-esque job where I have a Justin Herbert sort of option to quarterback. And I don't have to worry about

developing my own guy. And it seems like he really likes working in Detroit. It seems like a lot of guys really like working in Detroit. So I understand that. But that leaves Washington with Dan Quinn. And you said it. He needs to get the offensive coordinator right. Because when you're hiring a defensive-minded head coach or a CEO type of head coach, especially when you're drafting a quarterback, especially, you need to get the development plan correct. We've talked about it with Sean McDermott and Buffalo. They eventually get to Brian Dable in year two. The Josh Allen development project starts in earnest, and they do a great job of getting that thing over the finish line. The name that has been thrown out, I think Albert Breer said this and mentioned that it would have been the office coordinator he probably would have brought with him last year if he had gotten a head coaching job.

And that's Brian Schottenheimer. That worries me. That worries me. I don't think that is the most inspired choice. That is not Kyle Shanahan in 2015, in my opinion. So that would be the second letdown of the day if I were a Washington fan. The fact that that's the aisle we're potentially shopping in for offensive coordinators and for, the guy that's going to oversee the first few years of Drake May's career, whoever it happens to be.

Especially how the regime that they just wrapped up with because that was kind of the same old NFL names, that kind of that whole entire staff. So it's like, oh, again, we're doing this? Oh, okay. Just the retread. I know, there was some Chip Kelly rumors when he was in talks to Seattle. I don't know enough about Chip Kelly's tenure at UCLA to have an opinion. He still does some interesting stuff. It's Chip Kelly.

You know, especially in the run game, always in the run game. I would be interested in him as just an OC with somebody on top of him. Dan Quinn lets the OC have freedom, but also I would just be interested to see him just as an OC in the NFL. Like that would just be an interesting experiment to me. I wouldn't mind it. Why not? I think everybody's stealing from college. Why not?

I mean, it couldn't be any more opposite to Schaenheimer, even if Jim Kelly is a two-time former head coach in the NFL. It feels totally different. At least I think he is innovative and like pushes some boundaries. He does some. still does some funky stuff. Like he'll do the human centipede formation with three guys in a line, like three tight ends in a line to pull two guys. Yeah, he does some funky stuff still.

You see away. I think that some of the words you used are right. He'll bring energy, this idea of having a culture setter at the top of things, I think is going to become more in vogue as people look at what Dan Campbell has done and seek that out with the structure of their organization. But that comes with questions. It comes with questions about the lack of flexibility from that defense down the back half.

He deserves a lot of credit for taking things in a new direction to what it looked like during his last couple years in Atlanta. But we saw in the back half of this season that that defense is not nearly as flexible as some of the other schemes around the NFL that teams are chasing, i.e. the Seahawks. So if you get a downgrade in talent in Washington compared to what you had in Dallas, what does that defense start to look like? So that's my one big question. My second big question is who's calling the offense. And I don't think we have answers to either one of those just yet, even if he's going to be able to bring that energy and kind of stabilization to building a new culture there.

Our other head coach hire of the last couple of days is Mike McDonald landing in Seattle. This is a fun one. This is a very fun one. Would not have pair this? I said it yesterday when as soon as the news came out, you can't do a better job as a defensive coordinator than Mike McDonald did this year and really had done over the last couple years. how that's going to translate to him being a head coach, how that's going to translate to Seattle's defensive personnel,

who his offensive coordinator is going to be, how he steps into this role as an unknown as a 36-year-old. All of those are still questions, but I am pretty excited about what that defense can look like in Seattle, even with some of the pieces they already have in place. During his press conference, they asked who he's excited to work with, and Spoon was the first word out of his mouth.

Devin Witherspoon with this guy as the defensive coordinator, that's the type of stuff that you can easily talk to your into even in the early stages of this. Yeah. Oh, I have some I have some Witherspoon stuff later here for the show. But also it's, uh, no, that that's the first guy you come to because just that's where the talent is. That's what they invested in. That's the difference maker right now in the back end. And I think, you know, he's been used as a blitzer and all this, but I think it's just going to be cranked up and all that, all the fun versatility stuff. But I, I think already his answers and just even what he shows as a coach, at least where I can pick apart when I'm watching on

film and when I'm watching on TV is he's going to adapt to his personnel. And so I think, and he already said he's going to be calling play. So their personnel in Seattle is unique. They do not have the linebackers that the Ravens do, but they have some other interesting pieces up front and on the back end. So I'm very curious what that looks like. But same thing, defense coach. What's the offense coordinator going to be?

I'm very curious who he pulls from because he has some experience in college. I know he's been with the Ravens for a while, but different staffs have been with the Ravens, offense and defense. So he has, you know, rubbed elbows and shared rooms with a lot of different minds. And what does that, who does that introduce him to? Oh, okay, I know this guy worked with him. He worked with this guy. And that guy's supposed to be interesting.

So very, very curious, the names that he draws from to build out of his staff because, I don't know, I think he is a, he's an interesting guy. It's, it's, it's, you went from the oldest head coach, one of the oldest head coaches in the NFL to the youngest one. I mean, you couldn't do any more of a, quote, unquote culture shot. It's exactly half his age. You go from 72 to 36. And he's done such a great job there. And I think that we talk about flexibility on defense. He has shown an incredible amount of flexibility.

And everything I understand about the system that they run and the way that he teaches it is that it's very easy to communicate to players. It's incredibly flexible. You can move pieces around and make it easy for you guys and hard for the offense. The same sorts of things that we've talked about for years with the way that Shanahan plays on offense. The way that the Rams offense was where you have this, McVeigh calls it, it's the illusion of complexity. to the offensively. And I think that the Ravens in their system and the way that they've run it based on people who know it intimately, that's kind of how it works on the defensive side.

So him implementing those ideas onto his personnel in Seattle doesn't feel like it's going to be that big of a challenge. So I'm pumped about what he's going to be able to do there. And I think that they have a lot of offensive pieces in place. So that offense, we've seen it be a borderline top 10 unit over the last couple of years. You get somebody in there to run that capably. I think that they could be relevant almost immediately, which is really exciting. The name that has been thrown out, I think pro football talk reported this today, and I'm curious what you think of this, is Ryan Grubb, who is Washington's offensive coordinator and that is now Alabama's offensive coordinator.

That's right. So, again, you know more about this than I do, but how do you think Washington's offensive ideas grafted onto an NFL offense might feel? Oh, it's money plays. It's, well, Gino Smith, actually, I freaking love it because they chuck it. It's deep dropbacks, play action, tons of deep concepts, deep concepts. deep concept after deep concept, which with the personnel Seattle has, all right. And it's spread it out to chuck it. And then you'll run it when the lanes are clean.

So I would actually really like it. I really liked what Washington did this entire year and the last two years, really. I think that's some of the best offensive stuff. Even when the coaches were at Fresno, that coaching staff, they were doing great stuff because I was watching a lot of Jake Hainer, he was with the Saints now. Great. It's just, it's kind of a greatest hits kind of scheme, some air raid stuff, some West Coast stuff. Some air corral stuff, which is kind of air raid.

But, no, they chuck it. I love it. Like, I think that's an interesting hire because, again, it's not, it's, it translates to the NFL level well. It's not gimmicky. And so I think that's different than when you usually hear a college name. You hear Chip Kelly, you're like, ooh, okay, I just talked about a human centipede formation. But the Washington will use formations, use personnel, they use tempo really well. I don't know.

I would actually really like it. I think that's an interesting one to draw from. I'll be fascinated to hear more about that process. when stuff starts to trickle out about it because how the information gets sent back and forth, why he's looking in certain places. Hopefully we'll know more about that down the line. But this is something as simple as him sending Jesse Minter a text or giving him a call being like, what was it like to prepare for that offense in the national championship game,

which I think is very cool. And I love that he, this is one of my favorite things about the Ravens defense this year, period. They played all the best offenses. They played against the Rams. They played against the Niners. They played against the Dolphins. And so now you have Mike McDonald coming into a defense. division with Sean McVey and Kyle Shanahan after proof that he at least has a decent plan

for slowing them down. The Rams made a ton of big plays and had some success that day, but he's really one of the only defensive coaches in football this year that has at least given a couple speed bumps to Kyle Shanahan in that 49ers offense, which I understand seeking that out as the pool of offensive coaches that can maybe keep pace with those guys starts to get a little bit more shallow. Yeah. Don't imitate him, try and stop them.

I actually, now I'm thinking even with the other team in the division, what the Cardinals do, with Rololos and all the funky stuff he does. It's like, yeah, all right. Actually, that's going to be interesting. Actually, now watching these divisional matches, I didn't even kind of really think about that. That's going to be fun. The Ennis C. The S.U.S. period, now has tons of interesting coaches in it.

I mean, every single week, it's going to be worth watching what they're doing offensively and defensively. If the Washington coaches go there to Seattle, I mean, that's like every unit is interesting. I think it's a, I mean, it depends on what the Rams' defense situation is, but that's cool. just even right now, just start in February. That's pretty cool. FC West, all eight of these jobs are now filled. So I want to take a step back and maybe some bigger picture looks at how all this unfolded. My first reaction is mostly defense.

Five out of eight jobs were defensive-minded head coaches. Gerard Mayo, Mike McDonald, Antonio Pierce, Rahe-Morris, and Dan Quinn. We only have three offensive guys. Brian Callahan, Dave Canales, Jim Harbaugh. And Jim Harbaugh is kind of a, he rises above offense. defensive designations. But we had two guys that have more traditional backgrounds as offensive coordinators. And my takeaways from that are twofold.

One, I don't even know if it's necessarily going defense first. I think it's going CEO culture changer first. And it's always fun for me to watch how the invogue archetype for head coaches in the NFL ebbs and flows. You know, you go back and you look at some of the coaches hired in like the early 2000s and the trees they were getting plucked from. It was a lot of guys that were seeking out Tony Dungey. That's what people wanted.

Lovie Smith, Mike Tomlin, Leslie Frazier was a head coach at that point. Marinelli technically. Marinelli comes off that tree. So you have a lot. That's what people are seeking out. Then you had like the Seattle boom for a little while. Now we are deep in the McVeigh era. The McVeigh, Shanahan, young, offensive-minded head coach play caller type of architect. But with the success that Dan Quinn has had,

I truly think that you're going to have owners, around the league that see clips of that, see everyone talking about that and be like, all right, this is now what I want. I want somebody who's going to come in and change the culture. That is going to be the buzz phrase that continues to be used. And I think that this cycle specifically reflects that.

And I also think, like we talked about before, as the pool of offensive coaches gets shallower and shallower, are there going to be franchises that land on a conclusion where they say, I would rather just have the best leader. I'd rather have the guy who I think could do the best in this job rather than defaulting to offense if I don't think that pool of guys is ready. Yeah, I think there's a glut.

Just what's happening on offense the last few years, five-ish years, 10-ish years, there's always innovation happening. But what's kind of happened on defense, it's happening in college, and now it's really trickling up to the NFL. And we're seeing this, and we're kind of getting this movement. It's just what we've seen on offense is happening on defense as well. You're bringing up McDonald, and all that moving before the snap, all the disguise and everything, that's shifting emotioning for the offense.

That's a defensive version. That's it. And I think what's really cool with the 40-9ers and the Rams, you know, all the guys that have been hired from those teams, it's not just one side of the ball, too. So there's something these teams are doing. They're communicating and doing something well that others are like going like that works. I mean, the 49ers have had two defense coordinators hired plus, of course, the offense guys. And then the Rams have had now two defense coordinators hired plus KOC.

You know, all these guys are getting plucked on both sides of the ball because the the floor. I mean, just one after another. So it's, I think that's just something interesting with these guys that they are communicating ideas in some way,

shaping them. It's like, oh, especially the defense guys. It's like, what system are you part of? It's more like, well,

I just get it across. Whatever we're running, I mean, like just think of a Sala to Ryan's, you know, and then even just going, Rahim, Morris, and going with Staley.

I mean, Morris is one of the best, like what you're saying, oh, maybe, do we really want to squeeze for this offense guy? How about we just get the best communicator? The guy that's been on offensive defense and has an impressive resume that can be that maybe rules and CEO guy.

So I think it's interesting the backgrounds that all these guys have. But the one common thing it seems like is communication, communication, communication, which makes total sense. That's coaching. That's teaching 101. But it's cool that that's getting emphasized and kind of prized right now. I've always been the offensive mind head coach guy. I just think that that is the quickest route to contention.

I think it's the quickest route to good offense, and I think the good offense dictates success in the NFL. But the last couple of years is you watch some of these teams, you watch the Lions play, you watch some of these other teams that are clearly just well-coached top to bottom. The Ravens are like this, right? You watch the Ravens. I mean, John Harbaugh is not an offensive mind head coach.

That's another CEO head coach that's had a lot of success. Spilled too. Yeah. And I just, I'm starting to get, like, culture-pilled here. As I watch these teams play, and I watch how hard they play, and I watch the identity that they play with.

It's real, man. It is real. And I think trying to seek that out, if you don't have a surefire guy that's going to create an offensive ecosystem that sets you apart, I completely understand going that direction. And I think that's what a lot of coaches ended up, or a lot of organizations ended up doing in this cycle specifically. Two guys of that ilk, though, who did not get jobs in this cycle and will now not be head coaches in 2024 are Bill Belichick and Mike Frable. which is unreal. What do you make of that?

I thought going into this, Belichick and Ben Johnson were locks. They seem like locks, especially Ben Johnson to me. I've said this since the fall that I could understand being a little bit hesitant about Belichick given the last couple years, but I assume Ben Johnson would get one of these. But the idea that Ben Johnson, Bill Belichick, and Mike Rayble are not going to be head coaches in 2024. If I had told you that a month ago, two months ago, what would you have said? I don't think anyone would have believed it, but that's where we landed. And I think the Belichick won, I can understand because of even stuff that you've hit on on this show.

I think now that's kind of come to fruition a little bit is who's going to give him the full keys to the kingdom? Are you going to let him be Bill Belichick? He wants to run everything. He's understandably so. He's done it for 20 years. And he's a football savant. He knows everything about everything. That's him.

That's what he does. So I can see him. He got the meeting with Arthur Blank, of course. course. And I think Jerry Jones keeps dropping hints. Poor Mike McCarthy is like, hey, what the hell? Every week. But I think that's what it is. I think there's more GMs having say on final 53. I think that's a big deal. And saying, hey, we're concerned and the power structure considerations feel very real in this cycle. Every, and this has happened over the, I mean, this has been a 10, 15 year kind of thing. But the division of power and who gets the certain powers is such a talking

point and such a negotiation point. It's such a political point now. And I think that is very important to consider that some of these guys are going like, yeah, yeah, sure, sure. I just want to be a head coach. And then some of these guys, Ben Johnson probably goes and goes, uh-uh, I want final 53. I'm saying who gets cut. Or $15 million a year, whichever comes first. Or $50 million. Yes. But I think that's a huge thing, too, that that used to be just like, oh, yeah, whatever, give it to the head coach. And now that's like GMs are going, uh-uh, that's my, nope, nope, no, nope, that's my little thing that I have in the back pocket. That's my little say in this team. So just little things like that. That makes total sense. And if you look at Belichick and Vrable, my gut feeling is what it was like at their previous shop and then Belichick's case, what he was asking for is maybe one of the reasons that this didn't end up working out for him. We joked about it when the Titans hired Brian Callahan. I don't think Brian Callahan's going to be having many power struggle moments. with Rand Carthon about who is

who is in charge of that room. And I assume that there are teams that were thinking about Mike Frable and maybe him being, him looming large in the building. That's the term I would use. Not hard to work with, but looming large in the building. And some of the considerations that have to come along with that.

I think that you can make bad decisions if you're afraid of that type of thing. But I also think that I wouldn't be surprised at all if it wasn't forming some of these decisions that teams were making in the cycle. It has to be clean. It has to be everybody has to know this is yours. Don't even overstep that. And that's hard. Pull the rope in the same direction.

And if you're not, I think that that's a concern for some of these people in charge. Even if it's just 10 degrees or two degrees to the left, it's still different. Yeah. And when you get these personalities, when you get guys with success too, Vrable has had success. That's hard for them to go, who are you? Like I, and then, or, hey, I want this guy in the draft. And GM goes, no, I'm going to take this guy. And then that guy ends up becoming nothing because for able or the opinionated head coach goes, well, I didn't like that guy originally.

And then that becomes a whole thing. Like, just all these things that they can pick at, the power struggles are so very real. Let's head a couple of these coordinator hires before we get to Barnwell. Arthur Smith heading to Pittsburgh to be the offensive coordinator for the Pittsburgh Steelers. I kind of wanted Barnwell to be a part of this conversation to like check us. I know. I know because I know he has a different discussion than we do. I said something earlier this week.

that I, on Twitter. I missed that rant. So I was so close to just not pressing send because it was one of those like, is this worth it moments. But there were things that had been said that day by a variety of people on the football internet that I saw and I was like, we're really going to do this? And the things that were said that were frustrating to me was this idea that in three years of being in Atlanta, Arthur Smith had never used his personnel correctly or used his best

players and that all these offenses were poor. And I don't, if you want to have criticism of the higher or of his last season in Atlanta, I totally understand that. And we can dig into some of the nuance of what it means for Pittsburgh. But the idea that he never used his best players and all these offenses were bad is objectively not true. It's not. It's not.

Drake London had the third highest team average team target share in the NFL in 2022. The only passing game who threw the ball to their best player more. often in 2022 where the Raiders with Devante Adams and the dolphins of Tyree Kill. That was it. So that's point one. Okay. Two, they were eighth in offensive DVOA in 2022. We were wrong about the 2023 Falcons offense.

We were wrong. It was a bad year. I thought that Matt Harmon said something really. I thought he put it very well. Matt does work for Yahoo and reception. He said it felt like Arthur Smith lost the plot this year with the 2023 Falcons offense. And that is what it feels like because I went back and watched a couple games

this morning because I wanted to be ready for this conversation. And that's what it felt like. It was too clever by half. And I think rain back in a little bit with some of the personnel that they have in Pittsburgh, I absolutely think that this can work. I do too. And also the things that Steelers have been very poor at recently, play action, throwing over the middle, using their personnel, even just, I know.

The jokes are, and it's just another thing about the Falcons because we're take invested on the Falcons going this year. And it was like, all right, how to eat a lot of crow this year. No one watched. I know you guys didn't watch. Come on, guys. You guys watched all the Red Zone channel. You saw the interception by Ritter or you saw Pruitt or somebody else or Alger getting the touchdown.

You pop off the jokes. I saw jokes happening because John News Smith got a screen against the Vikings and he ran it for 80 yards for a touchdown. They go designing screens for not Kyle Pitts. And it's like it was 80 a touchdown. John Smith guys. What are we doing here? I also think it's time for a Kyle Pitts conversation. He clearly was not healthy.

And I watched, I rewatch the Bears game this morning. Dragon is a really good way to put it. There just is not a lot of giddy up in Kyle Pitts's game right now. So if we want to talk about him not using. Twoish weeks where he looked okay and then you kind of just dropped right back off. So that's a conversation moving forward. But if we want to talk about him not using Drake London, fine. But Kyle Pitts, I think there's plenty of excuses.

And Bejohn, I can understand not wanting to ride your number seven overall pick into the ground as a rookie. If you want to have issue with the way that they use Drake 1 in this year and the volume, that's totally fine. Again, but I don't think I have any issue with Cal Pitts. And the Bijon thing, I think is very overstated. But I think what you said about the areas that the Steelers will now attack or the things that they'll dip into is totally right. Kenny Pickett over the last two years, 37th among 38 qualified quarterbacks and play action percentage. 37th. Desmond Ritter was second. Even if the Falcons offense wasn't good, they're going to do a lot of that. I think it's play action, diversity of the run game. You know, it's a lot of zone in Atlanta, but he tried interesting stuff. And that Steelers offensive line this year showed that can be a good run blocking unit. So that thing, you build it from the ground up with those five guys and the pieces they have. That's intriguing to me. And they have good receiving talent.

They already do. And the last one, rewatching the Falcons today where I was just like, man, it's not necessarily surprising that this didn't really work very well. the blocking tight ends on the Atlanta Falcons this year were so bad. So bad. So bad. You're watching them try to trot out this 12 personnel run game stuff. Every single point of attack block with Michael Pruitt, John Hsu Smith, Kyle Pitts. It's like, what are we doing here?

Now he's got Darno Washington. So I just feel like the personnel as it sits in Pittsburgh. And again, we can talk about the quarterback and who's going to be the quarterback. That's a huge concern. But everything else, I actually have pretty decent. for what this can end up looking like. This is a real hire. This is a real move by Pittsburgh to get this right.

And some of the weapons make a lot of sense for how he wants to do it. They have a little more speed than the Falcons did. That was the one thing that definitely was missing. I could tell what that Falcons offense was they got tight because they had to use Drake London for everything. You know, when you have limping Kyle Pitts to take the top off sometimes that, you know, can make things feel a little tight. The other thing, too, is the Falcons probably use pistol more than anybody. and why that matters is that it's creativity. That will help the play action game.

They'll help the run game. So now you get some under center looks. You get some pistol looks and the shotgun looks. And the runnerbacks make a ton of sense. If you want to ride Nage, you want to use Warren. You know, you got a nice little balance there. And I kind of like both those guys can catch the ball as well. So I really like this one.

I thought actually I would love like Arthur Smith with really any defensive coach. You know, I thought he would just be a good hire because, yeah, maybe some of this head coaching stuff. and some of the press conference stuff in this last year, I win a skew. But the Duke can dial up some ball plays. Like I know he's become a meme. I know this. It's not of it.

I know perception is all this. That's not really true. The guy has some really good stuff still does, especially in the run game. And I think it's going to be great, a really good fit for what Pittsburgh needs right now. I totally agree. And I think it's good for him.

I think it's good for him to go work with my Tom on for a little bit. I think it puts him in a very, very good situation. And I totally understand the Steelers landing here. The question now becomes who is going to play quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers in 2024, and is that guy currently on the roster? That remains the biggest looming question. Last one I really wanted to hit here just because I think that there are other implications

of it that are worth talking about is the Packers hiring Boston College head coach Jeff Halfley to be their defensive coordinator. And there have been some rumblings about this, especially in this cycle. This idea that if the jobs came available and if there were opportunities, we could see college head coaches potentially leaving for coordinator jobs in the NFL because of just how grueling these college jobs are now. I mean, beyond the recruiting you have to do of your own team, of high school prospects, now you've got to recruit your own team with every layer that you have to worry about with

the transfer portal and NIL and how much you can get paid as a coordinator in the NFL. This is not the least bit surprising to me. I don't think we'll see a mass exodus because there are only so. many of these coordinator jobs available. But in a situation like this, I think it makes perfect sense for Jeff Halfley to look at the landscape of Bull Sports and say, you're going to give me like $3 million or like $2.5 million and I just get to coach defensive football all year. Cool.

Sign me up. I'm down. And never have to recruit outside of like three phone calls during free agency and maybe a dinner. Like that's it. Okay. Instead of like, oh, hold on, I got text a 17 year old about call of duty. Like, yeah, I'm sure.

What do you want to do as a grown man? Which one do you want to do? I don't know how I would talk to a 17-year-old person right now. I do not know how that conversation would possibly go. So, yes, I land the same place that Jeff Hathley did. Some of those coaches are so good at it, too. It's like it blows my mom. Like, Ed Ogeron.

Like, he's ridiculous as a recruiter. I've seen it first hand. But it's happened a little bit with FCS and greater five coaches, our head coaches are now, you know, taking assistant jobs with some of these Power Five schools. And that's become a thing. The coach at Buffalo, right, took a coordinator job this cycle, and I think there was one more, too. I believe a head coach at FAMU, court A&M.

He took an assistant job somewhere. I want to say at Duke. But there's been a few of these. And it's not unprecedented. Nick Saban was the head coach of Toledo, I believe, and took the Browns defense of coordinator job. Todd Monkin was the head coach of Southern Miss and took the office coordinator job with the Bucks. That's right. Yeah.

Yeah. But this, what are those schools? Mac and Southern Misses Conference USA, Sunbelt. I believe so. Some belt. Yeah. That's not ACC. So that is a big difference.

And it also just speaks to the pay of coordinators are getting now. Coordinator pay and assistant coach pay has gone through the roof. There's no salary cap on coach pay. And, you know, some teams pay very, very well. So if I can get similar pay, I don't have to recruit. There's a little less pressure, even if it is a coordinator job in the NFL, totally different to being a head coach and an FBS schools. especially a Power 5 school.

So I don't think, like you said, it's going to be a mass exodus. But I'm not, I would, it wouldn't surprise me if one of these happens a year, maybe once every two years. I just wouldn't be shocked anymore just because of the pay and just what you're saying with the NIL stuff. And just recruiting is exhausting. And some guys, it's not new. The goal for 95% of coaches I've been around is the coach in the NFL. That is the goal. It's the highest level and no recruiting.

And no recruiting. And this sounds a little mean, but there's, this don't, this is probably a little different now because now transfer portable. It used to be like, okay, we get this four star, five star. And it's like, okay, we got to keep this kid around. You know, in NFL, it's like, hey, scout team run this card. Oh, the guy doesn't want to run the card. We'll get someone new to do it. Like, you know, there coaches like that where they just can coach and just do those types of aspects.

So I understand it from the work life balance and even if it is still NFL coaching. But yeah, it's just, it's a brave new world that we're in right now. interesting schematics shift as well because it'll probably be a single high even front sort of approached defensively. The front, I think, is pretty swiftly changed over because a lot of the time when you're worried about going from a three four to a four three, which we all know is overstated in today's NFL anyway, you're concerned about the size of your outside linebackers. You don't want to put a 245 pound guy at defensive.

Oh, they're okay. Not a concern for the Green Bay Packers, whoever shot Gary and Lucas Van Ness. And so Kenny Clark's a three technique anyway. So the front, I think, is totally fine. You need to revamp the spine of your defense, but they needed to do that anyway. So all the things, all the stuff that the Packers needed to worry about and improve going into this offseason, it doesn't change. So I think that I get going with the best coach possible, no matter if you're going to have to undergo some sort of schematic shift, which it seems like Green Bay might. Do I have predictions of how you do?

I don't really. I can only really go off of what he did at Ohio State. You know, because, you know, Boston College, it's like, you know, you're coaching Boston College talent. Zayfathers has come from there. You know, Zion Johnson, offensive guys. But so I'm a whole, I'm reserving judgment all that. But when he was at Ohio State, I did think he did a good job.

But again, you are coaching at Ohio State. So that's always the always the thing. Yeah, the caveat. All right. Let's get to the reason that we're here. Let's get to where our guests. The one, the only, Bill Barnwell from ESPN. Barnwell, good for you to be back.

Well, you said it. I don't think you made it clear it is good for me to be back. Does he have a choice? Yeah, he does not have a choice because I love doing this show so much. And I appreciate what he brings to this conversation. It's always good to have a little bit more perspective. And I think that this is, in my opinion, one of my favorite football discussions to have every single year. Because I really think you can learn a lot from the way that the final four teams in the league are built, what they prioritize, how they spend their resources.

So this is something that I hope. we revisit as long as we do this podcast. Barnwell, you are the guest here. So as we run through these, I am going to let you have the first crack at this. As you were looking at the final four teams in the NFL and everything about them, what was your number one lesson that you wanted to start this discussion off with? Oh, gosh. I feel like mine are so bad this year.

And this is one-one bill. Yes, I know. This is one-one. I want to justify this. No matter which draft value chart you look at. I want to trade down. I want to trade down. Here's what I'll say.

I think it is so hard to find new things to say about the Chiefs. Oh, yeah. Because we've been doing this every single year. And every single year the Chiefs are in the Final Four. I don't know. I've got a couple, man. I'm a veteran of the content game. You need to step it up.

I'm trying. One that comes to me. mind for me that I'm not say I haven't noticed before, but was reinforced for me is shopping at the extremes. And so what I mean by that is you look at what they've done in free agency, the investments they've made. They went out and they signed Justin Reed, who was 25, 25 in a month when he hit free agency. That's one of the youngest free agents you will ever see in the NFL and used him to

plays Tyron Matthew. They go out and they sign Joe Tuny, who I think he'd missed, and that's ironic because he might miss the Super Bowl and has missed the last, missed last week, but he missed like 13 snaps in five in four or five seasons for the Patriots. Well, playing like five positions. Yes. Like, I think what stands out to me is not one unique plan of okay, sign young guys or sign you know, guys who are hyper fragile or the opposite of hyper fragile. Wutank Financial. Wutang Financial diversify your bonds. I think just this idea of like there's certain types of players it's going to be hard to find.

And maybe you take a step back, you go a little further. You add a Tyron Matthew to that group. But okay, like in terms of, you know, an elite level playmaker, you're not going to be able to find that. Like, I think having a trait, maybe several traits, that you can lean upon, whether it's youth, whether it's reliability, whether it's playmaking ability. I don't know what the sister Marquez Valdez Scanling. I don't think that part really holds up. But I think this idea that, like, is there a thing you can say you know for sure about this player in free agency? If there is, that might lead you to be more likely to go after them.

I love this because all the other teams have examples of this, too. The Lions not as much. They haven't really shopped in the most expensive aisle. I think that Camp Sutton is probably the biggest move that they've made. But the other ones, absolutely. Think about the free agent signings that the Niners have made. Javon Hargrave is a big money free agent. Charvarius Ward is a big money free agent.

Trent Williams wasn't a free agent, but the cost to acquire him. It's still a veteran. They traded for him. No, but then he was a free agent after the year. Yeah, they gave him a huge amount of money. So I think that that's... He was a, he hit the free agent market. Like he was, he could have signed somewhere else.

Yeah, but that is a veteran acquisition, the same way that free agents are. Sure. And then you look at the Ravens, same deal. Roquan Smith falls into that category. They spent a lot of money. I don't know Beckham. So I think that there are examples across these teams, which I like because it kind of ties it all together. And just the quick hitters, you know, Drew, you just, I think, Bill, you're alluding to it.

Kind of just, you have that role, Drew Tranquil, uh, clowny. You get all these types of guys. Anoy. I want to say, you have Annoi. I was going to say stars and scrubs, but more just like, hey, the big money deals. But hey, if you hit these little minor fillers that get more than filler that end up being good starters or play valuable snaps, look at what Tranquil's kind of short up that lineback position for the Chiefs, as if had injuries. I don't want to spoil too much about a later point. I have a very similar point that I'm sure we're both going to hit on.

But anyways, but it's just, yeah. But Tranquil being one is that just stands out to me is just finding those kind of in the margin signings that actually really work out for what you do. The lions are sort of an exception to this again, but I think that the lions are going to be sort of an exception to the other three because they're just not at the same point in the timeline as the other three are. There's just been a higher level of urgency with some of the moves that Kansas City, San Francisco and Baltimore have made because they were in. You look at the cash spending. You look at the urgency. The lions just don't apply at that same level as these other three teams do. And I think that speaks to how impressive the patient plan has been from the lions.

Sure. No question. Nate, do you want to go ahead? I actually like this one, and I'm glad I didn't spoil it too much, but I would say, and this is kind of more of a whole year-long thing, that culminated very nicely with these Final Four teams, is how important dynamic play from the slot defender is. And this is not anything recent. This is not anything that this is, again, a culmination of what's happening in college and now the NFL. but you have Trent McDuffie, first round pick. Brian Branch, second round pick, who was mocked as a first round pick by a lot of people going in the last year's draft. Kyle Hamilton, another first round pick. And then Demandador, DeMondador Lenore, who is kind of always the exception that proves

the rule. But having said that, three of these four guys are first or second year players. Lenore is a third year player. They all played 300 more snaps this year. This year, 15 first or second year players. play 300 more snaps as a slot defender. You got Devin Witherspoon, who we mentioned with the Seahawks earlier. McMillan, Jekylln, Jekylln McMillan with the Broncos, who had nice here.

Kyler Gordon for your bears, Roger McCrear for the Titans, Christian Eisen for the Bucks. All these guys that impact the game, and it's just what we've seen from defenses. We see the simulated pressures, the creepers. Hey, we have to be in lighter body, so you have to fill the run, just like a weak side linebacker used to. They have to do so much, but these four in particular are dynamos. Brian Branch had 11 TFLs and run stuff this year. Trent McDuffie had 16 pressures and 10 QB hits.

He had the same amount of QB hits as Duran Payne, Elie McNeil, Arden Key, Jalen Carter. Trent McDuffy had the same amount of quarterback hits as Jalen Carter this year. And again, there's a free runners, but it's him as a blitzer. They all had multiple interceptions, I think, other than one of them didn't. But three, three, and four. Oh, McDuffie didn't. But McDuffie also had five force fumbles this year. Tide for second in the NFL.

But how defenses want to play, I think you have to invest a little bit into this position because of this is a dynamic position that has to play a lot of snaps and can be a weapon based on how defenses use them. So these guys, it's kind of perfect. It's around the league, but these four are very good examples of what's going on around the league. I love this because it's the splash plays that you can find from that position. And I think there's been a lot of conversation over the last couple of years about, okay,

If nickel is just the new base defense and you're going to have to have a nickel in the run fit, how do those guys hold up physically? And if you ask them to take on blocks, I don't think it's going to end super well. But if they're just knifing into the backfield and trying to create explosive plays, that can be a strength for your defense rather than a negative. And I think that you saw that across the season with pretty much all of these teams. So I absolutely love that. Barlow, what do you think about this one?

I agree. I think it's been the case for the Chiefs before. I mean, Ligeria Sneed was playing. in a similar sort of role before Trent McDuffie was in that role and Sting moved outside. And I imagine if the Chiefs don't resign the Jerry as Sneed, he might play in the slot for someone else next year. But it's a, it fits sort of what the evolving meta of the defense around the NFL is. Like if you're going to either let teams chip away, chip away, chip away, and then try to do something to get them off schedule and have them behind

schedule on offense and second and third down. Creating a TFL is one way to do that. Getting a sack is one way to do that. Obviously forcing a turnover is great, but having a guy in the slot who is a playmaker, who is explosive, who, you know, who you can force intentional grounding with if your quarterback's not realizing that he's hot off that guy

or that guy's coming and he's not expecting it. Like those are so many ways. a slot corner or a hyper player can change the game. I mean, you might as you write about this, like, this feels like a smaller, but still equally dynamic version of like the hybrid player you're writing about in like the Dion Bucannon Bucannon days. Yeah, that was like shrinking linebackers though and just getting faster. Right, but this is like the next evolution of that.

It's like you have a slot corner playing linebacker, basically. I don't, but I think that that was more reactionary to the way that they ought to, that offenses were playing. What I like about this and the reason that I, the word that Nate used that I think is particularly informative is weaponize. This is not reactionary. This is going on the offensive as a defense by using these players in these specific ways.

And I think that's what's so cool about it as defenses around the league try to fight back a little bit. Yeah. And just even the deep, the leading calls this year, quarters, cover six, cover zero,

cover two. All of those put the slot in a bind. he is the overhanging player. He is the apex. And I think that just that word fits because it's just he is the apex predators now. Yes. And that is what he has to do. So I think these guys, that's why I compare it a couple of them.

And it's like the pistol in Halo 1. It's like they just, they can not just couple of headshots and that's it. You talked about it. Both of you guys refer to it. It's like these guys are explosive play generators now. And there's more to come. Like it's not going away. this is going to be every draft now.

What used to be tweeners. Is he a corner? Is he a safety? Well, nickel has to be 5-9-185. You know, it has to be a little slot corner to, you know,

keep up with the slot receivers. Well, now we got power slots. Now we got tight ends. Now we got different looks. And defenses are versatile too. So we need versatile defenders as well. So it's kind of fun seeing these, what used to be hybrid guys,

finding a nice landing spot. All right. Let's stick with explosive plays, but let's go with the offense. And my first one is I look at these four teams and what ties them together is the ability to find explosives and chunk plays in this new world, specifically. All four of these teams were in the top six in the NFL and 20 plus yard plays this year

offensively. Three of them, the Niners, Chiefs, and Lions ranked in the bottom six in the percentage of their throws that traveled 20 plus air yards. The Ravens were exactly league average. But most of them, three of them were near the bottom of the league. The Niners and Chiefs were first and second in Yak-Pers. per reception in the NFL this year. Rishi Rice finished second in the league in yak per reception.

Debo and Kittle finished in the top five, I want to say, an over-expected yak if you look at NFL next-gen stats. And the guy to me, though, that kind of encapsulates this is Jameer Gibbs. How are you going to seek out explosives in a world where two high defenses are going to take those throws away from you? Run game, pinpole, just getting the ball in these guys' hands. consistently. And that's what these teams have done. You know, the Lions, if you look at it, CMC, Gibbs, and Lamar rank second, third, and sixth in the NFL this year, an explosive

rush percentage, which is rushes of 12 plus yards. So I just think that these teams have done such a thoughtful job of how they're finding chunks of yardage in a world where it's hard to push the ball down the field. And when you watch the Lions specifically, I think they do such a good job of just embodying this idea. I think we think of explosive play. as just chucks down the field. Yeah. But really, it's all these teams, they attack that juicy, juicy middle. And they catch those balls and create the yards.

And that's why having explosive players matter. One of mine, so I'll just kind of add on to this was I looked at explosive pass rate, which is what I looked at last year. And I think 14% or usually league average is about 13.8%. So we'll call it 14. This is the threshold. The teams that win playoff games meet this threshold. 10 of 14 playoff teams met it, met it.

The four that didn't, Browns, Eagles, Chiefs, Steelers. The Chiefs are anomaly. Okay, went back last year, looked at these stats. All four teams made it. Looked at the year before that, all the final four teams made it, except for the Chiefs. Again, year before that, all the final four. The Chiefs are also weighed down by how the first half of this season went. But I was also going to say, just have my homes is probably, you know, that's, it's a lot of these rules as you think about how to build your team.

There's also like, there's a, like, name. we talked about this. Like there's a selection buy into this where like the chiefs are so, we're so devastating downfield that opposing defenses are happy to seed non-explosive plays. Six yards and 16. Yeah. And that's why the Rishi Rice part of this is so interesting to me. The fact that he was second in the league in Yakper reception, he's their weapon to do that now. And the other side of this that maybe isn't as sexy because they're not really explosive plays all the time, there's something to what these teams have found in their scramblers. that I think applies here because these are 10 to 12 yard gains.

They're not 30 yard gains, but Mahomes had 19 scrambles of 10 plus yards this season. When you look at the regular season and the playoffs combined, that was the most of anyone in the week. Lamar had 18. 16 of them went for first downs. So there's something there. Like, okay, so if we're going to take away big plays through the air, can your quarterback scramble for 10 yards once a game? If you can do that, think about how valuable that is.

over the course of an entire season. So Lamar Holmes, I think, embodied that. But look at what Purdy did last week. Just having that element to your offense feels really, really important. Obviously, Jared Gough doesn't apply to that. But what are the ways you're finding 10-yard gains that maybe feel a little unconventional and a little bit different compared to the explosive plays of yesterday? And I think we've seen that a lot from all of these teams.

Go get a bucket. Barwell, what's your next one? I have a Lions specific one that I think is really interesting. It'll make for a fun conversation. I think as much as we think about rebuilds as like a three, four, five year process and it is, man, if you can nail your first draft when you're rebuilding, it is such a difference maker for your organization. That first draft for the Lions, Penaesuel, Levi-en-Wisierke, a Lee-Mingianer-Wisierke, a Lee-Mingian. McNeil, Ifiato Milafonwu, Amon Ra, St. Brown, and Derek Barnes. Like, playmaker after playmaker for them throughout the postseason this year.

And the teammate reminds me of so much when it comes to what they got out of their first draft of the Buffalo Bills, where it wasn't Brandon Bean, it was just Joe McDermott, but they got Trudevius White, Zay Jones, who was not great in Buffalo, but has gone on to be good elsewhere. Dionne Dawkins, Matt Milano, they did Jeff Nathan Peterman. We don't all have to be hits. But, like, landing two or three building blocks for your roster, landing one stud who is like your day two, day three pick who, like, you are, you're landing a $25 million a year player for peanuts. You're landing a building block on the offensive line. Like, it is such an accelerator for your program.

If you can pull that off. And it's so hard because that's often a draft where you don't have your guys in the. room. Like you're, you spent that year scouting for a different organization. You don't know what you are. You have no idea what you are what you should be looking for. I love that. The other example that comes to mind very quickly for me is the 2010 Seahawks. Russell O'Cung, Earl Thomas, Golden Tate, Cam Chancellor. If you can have that draft to kick things off, it does accelerate things so quickly. Right. And again, it's just retooling. The Chiefs last year. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's that's such a good one because.

I mean, the Lions, even a guy like McNeil that developed this year. Shoot, yeah, but just, can we even include like golf in there? Like, it's like they acquired. Okay. All right. I don't want to spell anything like that. But no, it matters so much because not only just you're getting, I mean, just all these teams haven't dressed.

Ravens had a franchise altering draft last year just with Hamilton and Linderbob, just their first couple of picks. But no, absolutely. If those guys are, can be pivotal players, that, I mean, it's huge. It's just huge, huge, huge. Yeah. I know, I know, like, like, draft, have a good draft seems like a real obvious one. But just saying the timing.

It's a hypothesis of it. It accelerates your turnaround so significantly. I just think, but that's important to like remember and bring up again in this moment is that you need to find surplus value in the draft somewhere along the way. And if we're, it's hard to find through lines with the quarterbacks among this group just because they're so different and they come from such different places. But that's Brock Purdy. Whatever you think of Brock Purdy. Whatever you think of Brock Purdy, Brock Purdy has given the Niners extreme surplus value at the quarterback position over the last two years. They're paying him nothing and they have the best offense in football.

So at a certain point, a certain position, a collection of positions, you need to be able to build that in to get to this moment. And I think the Lions are a very good example of that. Yeah, absolutely. Nate, what's your next one? I got a merge, kind of having a merge too. But I touched on this a little bit last year and watching Sam LaPont. And actually a little bit of Travis Kelsey, maybe think this. Well, all mine's going to be personnel base.

So this is great. Maybe it's just because I'm in draft season already. But just how San Leporta was used, because I had hangups after he was drafted. I like the player. But it was like, hey, he still is a negative blocker. And that matters if you're playing on the field 40, 50, 60 snaps a game is how good these coaches on offense have at gotten at hiding their tight ends in the run game to keep them on the field no matter what.

What are best players be on the field? Don't sub them out, in and out, in and out. Make the personnel change because that also makes you basic and also makes you very predictable if certain guys are in certain times. Hey, Brock writes, and gee, I wonder what's going to happen here for the Lions, you know? It's going to be run or leak. That's all he does.

He's got two moves. And so, but if you have Sam LaPorte in there and 11 personnel every snap and you can run it legitimately. or even another team that made the playoffs. The bills with Donald Kincaid. The classic example, of course, is Travis Kelsey with Andy Reed, who Travis is big and he knows where to go, but he chooses his spots and blocking. And he doesn't get paid.

He gets paid to catch a lot of touchdowns. But I think this has changed my entire, I've had to adapt myself as an evaluator, which you should always do anyways. But when I'm watching tight ends now, guys that are what we call F only tight ends, it's H-only tight ends, receiving only tight ends. I give him more of a bump. I don't ding them as much as I used to. Trey McBride's another example I have.

I thought he was an eh blocker. And I was like, yeah, he's a good receiver, but you're never going to have him in line to block. And look at them now. These coaches are across the league, and this ties into the run game, becoming more creative as well, have gotten so good at hiding these guys

or putting them in more advantageous situations, blocking across the formation, using them in motion, so they're full speed kicking a guy out. I think this is almost league wide, but at least half the league has gone better. I think it's just anecdotally. And that's changed, I think, how positions can get used and how they can get used early. And I think the tight end position is the number one example of that.

And I think that Isaiah likely is a good example of this. And the way that the Ravens use Patrick Ricard. Right. Like he's not a receiver, but being able to find those pieces within your offense that may seem like they're imperfect, but you know how to deploy them as part of your blocking schemes, I think absolutely is something that ties all these teams together. What was the one that was adjacent to that you had? Oh, it was just diversity in the run game.

It was also one of my. Yeah, I mean, the Lions are a number one example, but that's, it's everybody. Every successful team this year had diversity in the run game. I think it's a very, very important thing to have these days. I'm totally with you. Can you build an offensive line and a running game that can do a little bit of everything? Because teams are just too good now. Defenses are too good.

If you're going to line up and run some version of inside or outside zone, 40 times a game, you're just going to be in big, big trouble. And the lions are the best example. They're like top five in almost every single run. But I mean, all of these teams were top 12 in the amount of counter runs they ran. Three of them were top 12 in the amount of power runs they ran. They're all three of them are in the bottom third. All of them are in the bottom third in the amount of inside zone they ran.

There's just so much diversity in the run games among all of these teams that I think is an expression of the offensive lines that they've built. Right. Like you have a line that can do a little bit of everything. That's what makes this possible. And I think a lot of these teams have built those lines that have allowed them to be that version of themselves in the running game. Yeah. And I think the thing about the Lions is they also run those concepts well, right? Very well.

It's not like they can just be like, oh, look, we can run crunch. Like they can run crunch out of love. They can run do at a high level. They can run power at a high level. They can do inside outside zone and do a good job of it. But being able to show mastery of all those different concepts and having it be a thing where, you know, it's third and two. and the Lions are going to run the football and you don't know what their,

like maybe do it is their go-to run, but like they could credibly call one of three or four different run concepts. Like I think it's telling about how, you know, how they've been able to evolve their offense. Yeah, I totally agree. Even just some of these good defenses that we've talked about, Mike McDonald's and the Ravens is one, it's diversity, right?

They're going to run a little bit of everything that you have to match that in the run game. Why outside zone became the meta and why all these Shanhan guys are in our lives, now is because outside zone is one of the few answers, few runs that you can run no matter what against a loaded box, a single high cover three or man coverage. We talked about the Legion of Boom defensive spreading throughout the league. Everybody was running that for a few years. So we can't run counter.

That'll get blown up. We have a bad box count. We can't run this play. We run outside zone over and over. Hey, and I'm sure those shan, that's why it was so easy for them. And now this thing is evolved and the run games have evolved. I mean, the 49ers run so much counter and trap and all these things that as much as anybody else. So that's, it's reflective with the defenses that they're getting faced.

Boxes have gotten later and also fronts have changed, right? Fronts are just a little bit harder to predict. And I think that that's part of this as well. And that's kind of informs my next one here. And I think, Nate, I would, I'd be surprised if you didn't have some version of this based on your Drew Tranqual comment. But I think if you look at all of these teams, they are either deep or impactful at their off-wall linebacker spots. Yes, that was one of my. I had strength up the middle on defense.

Yeah, strong spot. I think that applies. But you look at it and all four of these teams, right, the Niners don't rotate their linebackers, but they have incredible linebackers. They don't need to. Yeah. Why would you? And a great slot.

Yeah. Going back and rewatching that game, if Fred Warner doesn't exist, the Niners get blown off the field in that game. Every single big play they had defensively, essentially, was Fred Warner making a ridiculous play, Okay, which is awesome. The Ravens, same kind of deal. They don't need to rotate their linebackers because they have two very good linebackers for what those guys do.

You look at the other two teams, though, and this is why I think it's cool. The way that the Lions and the Chiefs have built their linebacker rooms, they threw so many resources at the problem, not necessarily high-level resources, but continuous swings. When the Lions drafted Jack Campbell

was kind of like, didn't you just pay Alex Anzolone and free agency and don't you already have Derek Barnes? But then you watch what the Lions were trying to do on defense, especially in the back half of the year. They can run even fronts. They can run odd fronts where they walk Barnes up to the line of scrimmage. The Chiefs are the same way. The Chiefs already had Nick Bolton, Willie Gay, and Leo Chanel on the roster when they signed Drew Tranquil.

But then you watch the way that the Chiefs play, well, we're going to walk Drew Tranquil up on the line of scrimmage this time. Well, now we're going to be in a stacked look. So either having superstars that drive what your defense is, or a collection of four guys that make you really versatile in the way that you can line up. I think that all four of these teams have some version of that this year. Bellar just said in our chat, baseball evading football talking about out the middle. I would even say the baseball analogy is platooting. They're platooning these guys.

Okay, we got run this. The lions are the number one example. I've never seen a team rotate their off ball linebackers more than the lions this year. But I think the chiefs are the best example. yeah. Chanel is, you know, I wouldn't want to say queen on the chessboard, but he's used to like one. That's, that should be a high compliment. That should be like, you know, like, yes, I understand what you're saying? But he has moved around. Oh, what did I call him? Oh, he's a rook because he only go straight line. That's what he is. That's what you're saying about

tranquil, but I think he does apply to both of them. Yeah, actually it does. But both of those guys, it's, okay, we can use them this word. Willie Gay is used on the ball sometimes, off ball sometimes as a blitzer and then Nick Bolton and what his role in coverage and everything. So I think that's, yeah, I had a very similar thing about linebackers. And I really just had one note on it. I just said, linebackers, you got them? Like that's, but how many offenses we talked and we did so many matchups this year, obviously every single week.

And it was like I felt like I was repeating myself. I'm like, they're going to attack the linebackers. If you don't have them, the good offenses are going to pound it. Run game or throwing over the middle. They're going to. They're really good at it now. So I think it's just, it's going to be a thing. It's going to be a thing we're talking about.

I've already had nauseam already, and I think it's just going to stay that way in the near future. I want to be clear about this. This does not mean you need to draft linebackers high in the draft. No. That is not what this means. You just can't ignore it. It is a position that that's exactly right, because there are two ways you can live here. You can draft linebackers in the first round and spend a shitload on linebackers like the Jaguars did and not have good linebacker play.

And you can not care about linebackers. whatsoever and have a torpedo your defense, like if you're the Philadelphia Eagles. So there are wrong ways to handle this. I think linebacker specifically, and this is something I'm slowly developing in my mind, and I'm barnwell, I'm curious what you think about this. I think linebacker is just one of those positions that I'm going to go to the store and buy one. They're available in free agency. Like this is a spot where you just need capable play, and linebacker specifically is a position

where I think that you're going to be able to find capable linebacker play in virtually every single free agent class that comes around. one person who could not find capable linebacker play was urban Meyer who had Quincy Williams with the Jags and would cut Quincy Williams at the end of his training camp and went to the Jets and that seemed to go okay for the New York Jets. Yes, you're right in that there are players who are available every off-season. I mean, Patrick Queen is probably going to be that guy for the Ravens, no? Yeah, I mean, Tremaine Edmonds is a free agent. Jordan Brooks is going to be a free agent this year. Like there are guys at those. positions that I think you can find most year. And T.J. Edwards were

free agents last year. And we've talked about on the show, Kazir White was playing like an all pro until you got hurt this year. I mean, so it's like you can find it. If you get that right fit with them, safety is similar to me. This is a larger team building conversation.

We had the safety conversation a couple of years ago with the Rams. Yeah. Yeah. And we're talking, okay, if you're going to play light boxes, if you're going to play gap and a half, if you're saying,

you know, if you're going to be playing too high, like you need to spend more at safety. You need to spend more at defensive tackle. And I remember it was very funny because I were thinking, well, Eric Weddle has just been signed off a basketball court. It's going to be the green dot for the Rams in this game. But you're right. And like, I don't think that's changed.

And look at the teams at these teams. They all have pretty good safeties. And they've invested a lot in different ways in safety. Well, one of the things I think that is, as I've looked at the guys and where they've been available, is that these are positions that are hard to project. It's hard to know based on someone's college tape. they're going to be as an NFL linebacker just because the demands are so different. And I think safety is similar. Like you go back and, I don't know really what I'm watching, but you go back and watch

college tape of safeties. They don't do anything. It's so hard to understand like what is going to be asked of them in the league and who's going to translate. So for me, in my opinion, it's easier to just wait and say, I'm going to sign one Thornhill for $8 million a year. Like that's how I'm going to approach this position. You're not ignoring it.

You're just waiting to spend a modest amount on it because it's easier to evaluate. with guys who've been in the league, then guys who are coming into the draft that you have to spend top 50 picks on. And there has to do so much that there's situation scheme matters so much. Like Kyle Hamilton was a fantastic prospect, but it was also like, you know, he landed in a great spot to like make sure it's that. If he was just, I mean, I'm just, what if he got drafted by the, I'm just making one up? But the Texans last year when Lovey was the head coach.

Okay. And then they're running cover two with him every snap. Okay. It's not really spot shop cover two. Right. I mean, they actually kind of did that with Derek Stingley at corner, but I was saying even that safety. But like that highlights his strengths. He has a lot of them, but it really does.

These guys have to be. They, because there's so many times they're on slot against an actual receiver. So now safeties are just covering receivers back in that. Like, I mean, 10 years ago, that was like, oh, it was like, you know, like not, you got a true corner in there in the slot covering these guys. These guys have to do so much. So I think that's why it's hard to project because you're like, well, this guy's really good at this. But he has to make sure he gets in the right scheme to make sure he's perfect. I know this guy got hurt last, or this year, but Hufanga is another one.

Hufanga with the 49ers, love it. Hifong and some other systems, I'd wait to see and just see how exactly how he fits. So I just kind of reiterating your point a little bit. What's your next one, Barlow? Um, hmm, again, lions based, but I think we could find a lot of these for the Ravens. And I think some for the chiefs and the 49ers as well, depending on how you want to class. some of their players, but buying low is a real thing. Like, we are overconfident.

I think it's something I write about a lot. We're overconfident in our ability to regard who's going to be a good NFL head coach, who's going to be a good quarterback. And I think we think of that very often in terms of people we don't know entering the NFL, but it is also true for people who have already been in the NFL. And that is a scheme fit, that is a injury fit, that is a just a, overconfidence in our ability to evaluate one player in one scheme. And for the Lions alone, obviously the big name is Jared Goff.

And Jared Goff was, you know, he was a meme at that point. He was benched for, basically benched for John Wolford by Sean McVeigh. I know that he came in when Wilford got hurt in the playoff game. But I mean, like, McVeigh was so sick of Jared Gough that he was ready to play John Welford in that playoff game. It wasn't just him. It's Josh Reynolds, Charles Harris, John Commitius. John Kaminsky.

For the Ravens, it's Genevian Clowny, Calvin Noi, Arthur Marlette. For the Niners. John Simpson. Morgan Moses wasn't that expensive. Yeah. Right. For the Niners, for the Niners, it's Christian McCaffrey. I know he doesn't seem like he's a bargain, but if you knew you were going to get that out

of him, most of the offensive line, which is another one. Tachon Gibson is a good one. He played a ton of big plays in that. championship game. It's available for nothing. So many, so many of the defensive players on the defensive line over the last few years, the Niners have been by low players. Like, obviously, you can't just bring a guy in and he's going to play better, but there's

a question of what do you do well as a coaching staff? What do you do well as a scheme? And what can we identify as traits or characteristics or styles of play that are going to cause players to thrive in our system and in our scheme? and you have to be have a good pro-scouting department, you have to be a good self-scout, you have to be patient. I mean, some of these guys on the Lions,

I don't think would have got playing time for a team that was not totally rebuilding. I don't think Charles Harris gets 500 snaps on another team to show he can be an okay player. And great, he hasn't been an impact player this year, but more the last couple of years, but someone like Josh Reynolds was, you know, bouncing around and got an opportunity.

The Titans didn't want Josh Reynolds. Right, right. That's the thing. That's the thing. That's the thing. too. That's the thing. It's like some of this is opportunity just because you needed somebody.

I mean, the Ravens had no choice but to play Arthur Millett because all their starting cornerbacks were hurt. But like giving people opportunity, letting them thrive and then having meaningful roles for them is a good thing. Yeah. I think that's a really, really good one. The thing, and there's a conversation to be had about Jared Gough and what his future should be in Detroit.

You go back and you watch that NFC championship game. And really, any time he's pushed off of his spot, it was a problem. And it ended up hurting the Lions over the course of that game. But he played some really, really good football this year. And I remember in the moment, just looking at that trade and what they had to give up and this idea that they had to throw in more picks because they, so the Lions took on Jared Gough's contract. And so much credit goes to Brad Holmes and to the Lions organization for understanding that he still had so much to give, that you could build. an elite NFL offense with Jared golf as your quarterback, as so many people, myself included, just didn't think that that was a thing anymore.

And their ability to see that in guys, I think, has driven a lot of their success over the last few years. Oh, yeah. I remember that Packers game in the playoffs. They just, that was vivid in my mind. So I understood that why that trade. When you just mentioned John Wolford, that was like, it's like, oh, yeah, that's right. That happened. So, yeah.

No, but it's the belief that the Lions had this year was very, I mean, we, talked about several of the players, but it's been really cool to see those guys that I was like, yeah, he's whatever, turn it to not only that, but just impactful players. And that's belief. You had a stat that you wanted to throw out. What's that? Tied into other things we had, but I just like, I kind of wanted to share this because I had some others that merged. But this was kind of tied to the linebackers and the safety talk and the slot talk. So I guess just the spine that we've talked about. But packing the paint, do you, it's, I'm really thinking that the middle of the field. And I've been working on this analogy because it's very important to be for quarterback play.

I really think that's something that what I think the best guys do and also when I'm projecting guys coming from college is how they work over the middle. When they're asked to do it, when there's opportunities there, do they take those chances? And to me, that's shooting threes in the NBA. Can you shoot threes because it creates space? I know it's different. It's the middle. It's tight as opposed to three is creating space, but work with me here. But really just does that create space for the rest of the offense?

because if you does, it creates space on the outside. They can't run, defenders can't run to the flat. Safety's have to worry about defending the middle. They can't fly deep. But the opposite of that, and if you follow NBA, is how do you defend three-pointers? Like everyone wants to shoot, how do we defend them? How do you pack the paint as a defense in the NFL?

So those throws are the middle, don't let them kill you. Three of these teams, the lines are the exception of this. They just are in all this. They're the 1996 Houston Rockets for all this or whatever. They are success rate on throws between. the numbers. 49ers are fourth, Ravens are six,

chiefs are seventh. EPA per play on throws between the numbers. Forty-Nirs are second. That's the Fred Warner stat. Ravens are fourth, chiefs are 10th. And I think we've seen it all year.

The chiefs are one of the best tackling teams. Actually, all these teams are very good tackling teams. 49ers are number one in the NFL and miss tackle rate. In the secondary, sorry. Secondary, okay.

So, but that's what they are. They limit these big plays and they work, stuff it over the middle. Don't let you create the big plays over the middle. and I think that's so important. That Dolphins Chiefs, Germany game, I always say London, Frankfurt game is one of the best examples of this, of limiting that area. That was defending the three, but the NFL version of it.

And I think that as you play against those really good defenses that need for flexibility and the need to be able to attack different areas, the field becomes more and more important. Barnwell, how many more you got? You got a couple more? Here's one I have. And it doesn't really fit for the Lions because they're in sort of stage one. of what the lions are going to be with this core, but it fits for the Niners. It definitely fits for the Chiefs.

It sort of does for the Ravens. They've changed a bit. My thing is trust your ability to evolve. And in terms of what are you focusing on in terms of your spending? What are you focusing on in terms of your draft picks? So what are you focusing on in terms of where the sort of the points on your roster where you're just hoping to get by? And think about the differences between, let's say the 2019 chiefs. I'll use them as an example.

And the 2023 chiefs. So the 2019 chiefs had Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelsey on second contracts. They had a lot invested up front. They had Chris Jones, I think, was about to get his deal. They had Frank Clark or they just traded significant draft capital to get on. a big contract. They had a pretty low rent secondary. They were getting by with a lot of, you know, guys making close to the minimum, guys

who were late-round picks, Tyron Matthew was the one exception. A lot of Dan Sorensonsons. A lot of Bashad Breelins, nothing wrong with that. But like, they were not making. Charverius Ward. Chavarius were, what was breaking through at that point? But not 23. They're not spending anything, really, outside of Marcus Valdea Scantling.

and Travis Kelsey at receiver. They're spending much less at wide receiver. The defensive line is Chris Jones and a lot of draft picks and Charles Amanahue, who is a relatively low-cost

free agent who was very good before tearing his ACL. Their offensive line is more expensive and will be more expensive as Creed Humphrey and Trace Smith become eligible for extensions. More expensive now than it was a few years ago.

And defensive back is cheaper, but they've invested a lot more in terms of day two, day three draft capital, and so they have a ton of young talent in the secondary. To me, their secondary is much better now than it was four years ago. And so I think there's just general idea of like when you form your identity as an organization, you know, I think it goes beyond, okay, we're going to be good at these positions.

We're going to have this structure for our cap. This is going to be how we build our roster that has to evolve. That has to change. It can't be reactionary. I guess the chiefs loading up on offensive linemen. Maybe that's the exception. Maybe you have to be reactionary if Patrick Wilhomis can't throw the football. But there's sideways on every throw.

Yes. If you can't do trick shots every single play. But you got the idea. Like I think there's this, you know, if you're a good organization, you can have different roster constructions. You can have different places where you spend a lot of money. And you can evolve adjust to what the league is asking from you and still be a really talented and successful football team.

Yeah, I love this. I think your identity should be flexibility. that's what your identity should be. Your identity should be evolution. That, to me, is the best identity you can have. And I think this applies to all these teams. Think about the Ravens. Think about what the Ravens offensively and defensively look like in

2023 compared to what they offensively and defensively looked like in 2020. Where you have this super heavy personnel, you know, shotgun run game. That's essentially the baseline of who you are on offense. You have the face melting blitz call every single defensive snap. Like what the Ravens are feels very. very, very different, and they embrace that. And the Niners are the same way. You know, the defense, I think, structurally has been fairly similar over the last few years.

But offensively, the Niners are different. They're different than they were in 2019 when it was a lot of under center play action. The way they evolved their dropback game, the way that they evolved getting, having McAfri's they got five out in the route and what that did to their passing game overall, switching like we talked about from the zone heavy running scheme to one that's so much more diverse. All of these teams feel so much different than they even did three years ago, even the teams that have become very familiar to us.

So I think that's a really good one. The chiefs, yeah, just even their offensive identity. We talked about the linemen itself, but just even what they leaned into. Because that first year was just like RPO City with Tyree Hill and everything. And that led to some frustrations. And like even to the loss in the Bengals, AFC championship game, where they're just running these RPO's and they hit that limit of what we can do with this offense. they had to go through their offensive evolution to what it is now, which is more dropback.

Like really is. Mahomes is fantastic as just a three and five step operator. I was shocked at how little play action they used this year. It's like near the bottom of the league and they used to be near the top of the league. No tempo. No play action. And they just go straight dropbacks and run game. They just separated it.

They've gone all the way back, which is cool. I mean, I'm all about that. Nate will never let that Patrick Mahomes RPO go from the business. you remember who'd I call I called somebody a name on the Bengals because I was a Hubbard Sam Hubbard an inappropriate word for because I was on a rant appropriate word yeah I was not a rant about it but it was just

it was the most frustrating thing you ever see and they learned their lesson from it they still have them they will run some RPO's but it's it went from a huge block of their diet to just a small smattering of it but I think all of them the four nineers rugged we've already talked about it yeah they went from zone zone zone zone zone to everything and that is just crazy I mean even just the

motion stuff has evolved. I mean, every year. It's one of the most fun things to watch is what Shanahan whips out every single year. And they're devastating when they use play action, but relative to the rest of the league, the Niners used to be the heaviest, not the Niners, Shanahan used to be the heaviest play action offense in football. It no longer is. It is down in the middle and even sometimes a little bit below average over the last couple years. So those little bits of evolution, I think, are crucially important. I've got a couple just to run through very quickly. They don't need to belabor them, but I think that they're worth mentioning. Do you have one guy that you can build your past rush around?

You don't need five guys. Do you have one guy you can build your past rush around? Chris Jones and Mada Bke were second and third in total pressures among interior defensive linemen this year. Aiden Hutchinson and Nick Bosa, second and third among edge guys. Do you have one guy that can get you five pressures a game and be a consistent force? So I think that one's there. And this one we talked a lot about last year, but I think it's worth bringing up again.

You need difference-making weapons in the NFL in 2020. You just do. You don't have to spend a lot to get them, but you need to get them somehow. George Kittle, Christian McCaffrey, and Amon Ross St. Brown are first team all pro this year. Brandon and I, you could Sam Laporte a second team all pro. Look at what the Ravens did at receiver, how much better they are there. And the chiefs are not here without Travis Kelsey. And they almost don't apply because of who the quarterback is.

But if you have a quarterback that's not the best player I've ever seen, you better have a stable of weapons that can truly make a difference for you down in and down out. And that's been true for the last couple of years. The Lions are kind of an exception in that they didn't spend to get them, but the end result was them having two all-pro pass catchers. Yeah. Second team, all pro rookie tight end. But even teams that lost, you could feel it where they didn't have it. Even the team like the bills.

I know we have Stefan Dix. Exactly who I was thinking of. It's a great, great example. But it's not Stefan Dicks, as we know it, or how he's being used and everything. It's still something I'm trying to figure out. But you felt that. It was when that's taken away from a team, it's like, oh, that just. just that's an easy button sometimes.

I'll use that term, but that sometimes is. Isoball, let's do it. Let's rip it. Sometimes you need that. You just sometimes need to do the ISO ball stuff. And I love the pass rush one because I've been meaning to look into that because I remember we did our little Super Bowl formula thing. Yeah. And these teams, that's exactly what they have is five pressures a game in the playoffs.

I know. And that's what Bose has been given the Niners. That's what Aiden Hutchinson was given. Metabee has been in that range. And I assume Chris Jones has been in that range. So do you have one guy. And it's just so funny. you had it over to PFF, sort by pressures,

and you have these four teams in the final four, and they have one guy that's in the top three. So those are the two kind of that we've talked about a little bit in the past with work bringing it up. I have one more, but Barnwell, I'll let you do your last one here. My last one is just that you have to get the offensive play caller right. No matter how you get there,

you have to get the offensive play caller right. Obviously, Shanahan and Reed, there's a reason they're here every year. There's a reason that the Niners are in the NFC championship game every year and the Chiefs are in the Super Bowl seemingly every single year. Patrick Mahomes is a big part of that. But what Andy Reid has built from an offensive infrastructure standpoint in the 10 years he's been in Kansas City is remarkable. And Kyle Shanahan is the NFC equivalent of that. But you go to the other two teams. I know he didn't have a great AFC championship game.

Hiring Todd Monkin and taking the next step as an offense for Baltimore, put them in the position that they were in and it has set them up for the future. And what do you have to say about Ben Johnson. If Ben Johnson doesn't end up taking that role for the Lions, if they don't get there eventually with him being the offensive coordinator and allow him to kind of bring this version of their offense along, it's a different team. It just is. If Anthony Lynn is still the offensive coordinator for the Lions, we're not talking about the Lions the way that we currently are. So, whether it's with your play calling head coach or you go through some trial and error with the rest of your staff to eventually get to the right point, you need to get the right point. You need to get

this right to be a competent competitive NFL team in the modern era, period. Oh, man. We've missed on the Anthony Lynn John Wick game. It's for the 49ers now, isn't me? Consider we talked about each of those games like 40 minutes apiece. I can't believe we missed anything, but you're right. We did end up missing that. I just read.

I already said that. I thought about it. Even, Nate, think back to the conversation we had at the beginning of the show. When we're talking about Mike McDonald, we're talking about Dan Quinn, even almost reflexively at this point. The first thing that you think about with these guys is, okay, who's the play call are going to be? Like, this is great. Like, I'm excited about it.

I think they're going to do a great job. I understand the hire. Who's the play call are going to be? Because I just think it's impossible to ignore at this stage. And I think that these four teams are very good examples of it. Did you guys realize that we came very close to a Willie Sneed John Wick game in the Super Bowl? I forgot that Willie Sneed was on the Niners side. You're sure.

I was really watching. Congratulations to Willie Sneed, man. I was watching the Niners Ravens tape. And I was like, who was that target to? I was like, is that 13? 13? And I looked at up like, no. I thought it might have been his son, honestly.

I was like, did the police have a kid? It's gone that far? I'm proud of Willie Sneed, man, for keep getting them checks. It's impressive. I didn't know he was still on there, but I know, I knew Sneed was on that roster because when I was watching Sam Darnold this preseason, that's who he was chucking the ball to. Some Willie Sneed.

Oh, man. they have a couple of those. That was when Debo went out. And all of a sudden I'm like 84, who's 84 or 84? Chris Conley. Chris Conley is involved. Chris Conley.

Oh, this is a Chris Conley revenge game. It is. Johnwick game? No question. Oh. Something to keep in mind when we get there. But yeah, Chris Connolly's got two mentions on the athletic football show feed this week because me and Dan had a nice little story time about Chris Conley

Conley and his 40 time. The most shocking 40 time in a combine history. Let me tell you. So, what's the prospects for us this week? Yeah. Barnwall, you got anything else? No, I'm good. I think that kind of is it.

And, you know, like, I think the play caller one, like, I think some of these, like, it seems obvious, but the extent and the scope matters here, right? Like, I think, can you guys think of a team that's made it to the final four in recent years where you had serious questions about the offensive play caller? Where you were like, oh, this guy, like, sort of like Matt Canada-esque. questions about the play caller because to me it almost feels like it's not just like an important thing it feels like an absolute prerequisite at this point maybe you could make an argument that like the bangles were leaving something to be desired schematically when they got there

in 2021 like that version of the offense and then they redeemed themselves just for 99 you don't need you don't need an offensive play called 99 every play that's probably that's probably the best recent example, right? Because all the other, and then like the, the Jags in 2017, right? Right. That's how far you'd have to go back. And they had a, like, league altering defense at that point. Yeah.

Exactly. So. And Lenny for that. Come on. They had play off Lenny. That's true. But like, you got the idea there. Like, like, it's, it's not just, it's not just important.

It is absolutely mission critical. And so maybe that if you're, uh, if you're a, like, if you're an organization, maybe that leads you to be more aggressive with your offensive coordinator choices. Maybe when a guy like, I don't know, I believe Kellyn Moore is a top six, top eight NFL offensive coordinator. Maybe you're more aggressive going out and getting a guy like that, the one chance you get to hire him, even if it means being more aggressive in letting your offensive coordinator go. I don't know.

I just think that is so hard to do it without one of those guys. That's what we're talking about with Dan Quinn. It's like, I think just even expansive searches shows so much. I mean, the guy I'm going to keep pounding away at it is Drew Petzing. And it's just the way with the Cardinals because it's just like, hey, he's a guy. We're getting to the third level of this tree. But hey, if he's an impressive interview, like, why not? Let's get the guy that's coming from this and have some ideas, I think, rather than the retreads that we've seen.

That's, I went through this. I went through this two weeks ago when the Bears were trying to figure out who their offensive coordinator was going to be. And you look at the candidate list. And I think that Shane Waldron did a good job in Seattle. but it's hard for me to look at that list and not be intrigued by what Zach Robinson could potentially be. Because I think it's just so important to be swinging for the fences with these hires that the mystery and the intrigue that comes along with some of the unknowns, it's hard not to be enticed by that. I usually make fun of the mystery box, but sometimes it's fun. But I thought you were going to talk about Cliff.

I thought you got excited about Cliff Barr coming to Chicago. I'm all set. The way that it landed, I feel pretty fine about it. But I think that the exercise, I think what Barnwell said is exactly right. Because of what the league looks like, you feel more tempted to be aggressive to try to get the right guy in this role because it almost feels like it's non-negotiable. Going back and looking at the NFC championship games over the last 10 years, really the only example of a guy that isn't a clear cut above average play caller was probably Byron Lefich with the 2022 bucks. He had Tom Brady. So ultimately it doesn't end up being that important.

And a former, like, A-tier offensive play caller above him that kind of had some say. We'll see that's really it. On the AFC side, though, to bring it full circle, Arthur Smith. I think Arthur Smith was a very good play caller at that point. There we go. The most efficient offense in football. Right. So if the argument is you have to have that guy to be in the final four, and Arthur

Smith was in the final four, ergo post hoc ad propter, I've got to my Latin words, ergo, Arthur Smith is a elite play caller. That's how it works. That's the way that it flows. Twist of the mind like the end of a matrix reloaded. There go.

Vis-a-V. All right. That is all we got. I love doing that show every single year. Barnwell, sincerely appreciate you guys join. sincerely appreciate you joining us. Where can people read and listen to your stuff?

ESPN.com, I guess. ESPN.com. dot UK if you're in the UK. You can go to ESPN.com. You can read Barnwell writing about the Justin Fields Tobacco, which I'm really, really resentful that you did today. I just, I wish that could have just waited two weeks. I wish that in the run up to the Super Bowl, I just didn't need to take a considered look

at all of the Justin Fields options. Again, you said you were a veteran of the content wars earlier in this podcast. You should know in two weeks, everyone else is going to do that column. I had to do it now. That's why you're better at this than me, but I'm still annoyed at you in this exact instance. I had to get it out two weeks in advance. You making me do surplus value math in my mind today about Justin Fields and the Bears draft situation is not what I wanted to do on this Thursday morning before the Super Bowl. So I appreciate that.

All right. That's all good. That's all we got. As always, guys, sincerely appreciate you listening. Like Nate mentioned, please go check out this week's prospects to pros with a little senior bowl recap. Dana's down there. So please check that out. We will be back on Monday, I believe, with me and Diana Rossini, coming to you guys from Las Vegas, where the Super Bowl is taking place, where Nate lives.

I'll be flying there on Sunday, so we will have a full sleep of shows coming your way from Vegas next week. Very excited about that. For now, that's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was The Athletic Football Show.