The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Lessons we’ve learned from the NFL’s final four teams with Bill Barnwell & Nate Tice

Episode Date: February 4, 2022

What lessons have we learned from the NFL’s final four teams? Robert Mays and Nate Tice sit down with ESPN’s Bill Barnwell to discuss their top takeaways from the Rams, Bengals, 49ers and Chiefs. They talk about the importance of coaching, offensive lines and of course the QBs.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. The Athletic Football Show is presented by State Farm, because like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Get a quote today. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Today is Friday, February 4th. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today. Obviously, on Fridays, we typically do a preview of that weekend's games.

We are not doing a Pro Bowl preview. We decided to bypass the Pro Bowl preview. Instead, we're going to do something I like to do every single year. I always think it's a fun exercise. to look at the teams that made the conference championship games, the teams that made the final four, and try to figure out what lessons we can learn from them, whether it's team building, strategy,

just kind of take whatever got those teams to that moment and see if we can apply them to some broader concepts, themes that we might be able to take into this offseason, into next season. To do that, I wanted to welcome two of my favorite football people, one of whom you listen to every Friday on this show in Nate Tice, and the other in ESPN's Bo Barnwell. Gentlemen, thank you very, very much for doing this.

It's very fun to have you both on the same show. The unholy Trinity. I feel like poochy, itching, scratchy and poochy show. That's where I feel I'm squeezing in out to this show. I'm so happy that Bill's on with us. This is so exciting. I was told this was going to be a U.S. men's national team podcast because the podcast is about football last week, so we hit our quota.

So I'm a little confused with what we're doing here today, Mays. If we're bringing it all the way around when I met Nate for the first time, when Nate reached out to me on Twitter for the first time, which was probably eight, nine years ago at this point, right? Yeah. It was when he was listening to the Grant One NFL podcast and we were talking about his dad is the first time I ever talked to Nate. So it's all coming full circle here.

It's coming all the way around. I was correcting what number pencil he used, I believe. You made a joke that you were a number two pencil. And I was like, he actually, it's a number three pencil that he used. Well, because the story, the story was I was in Vegas with some friends and I was at the Mandele Bay. I think it was for, I don't remember what it was. I mean, at that point, I was in Vegas like every two months because I was living in L.A. and I was very young and I spent way too much money.

But he was at Mandele Bay and your dad was playing the ponies, as he's wont to do. Sure. And he was there for at least eight hours. And he was, we had a number two pencil in his ear. I was making a joke about it on the show. and you reached out and correct me. It was like, it's a number three pencil. You were conspicuously quiet about the number of hours he had spent at the sports book, though.

I know he has his, he used to have his little roped off area, even though it wouldn't be busy. It was. It was roped off. Yeah, some random time watching horse racing. And it's like, not even the good tracks. It's like Aqueduct. Wow. I know.

I'm sorry if anyone from Aqueduct listens or anything like that. Tampa Bay Downs. He wasn't even been like Churchill and Delmar or Belmont or any of the other. those. So yeah, that's, like you said, he just wanted to do that. That's, that's his hobby when he's outside football is a little bit of horse racing in his life. Can I ask a question that maybe you guys, everyone knows the answer to and I'm just stupid about? How many numbers of pencils are there? It's a great question. I didn't know there was a number three pencil before this thing came into my life. Is there a number one? I didn't either. It might be. I think it's like the lead thickness or something

like that. But how many are there? I don't know. I don't know what the max is. I have a very strange friend that still uses number two pencils to this day. It is his writing, like writing instrument of choice. We'll go to a fantasy football draft and it will have every single player printed out on sheets of paper in his rankings. And he'll be writing on it with a number two pencil. So, O's this is for you if you're listening. Good job, buddy.

All right. Your pencil usage got to mention. You made in front of me when we first started podcasting because I would write with like a little pad in front of me. You're like, just an old man. I get names wrong and I write with. I write on a pad of paper. So that's my old man usage right now. Well, we got three old men here that are going to toss around some ideas about the final four teams that we just watched in the conference championship games.

We're going to kind of go one by one and just list them off. I'm really curious what you guys landed on. Barnwell, you're a guest here. I would like you to go first. I'm giving you the floor. I'm seating you the stage. What is your first lesson that you want us to take away from the final four teams? How do you want to handle it?

I mean, do you want to go lesson by lesson or team by team? I was going to go lesson by lesson. Okay. I'll do it that way. That's fine. Okay. Lesson number one. And you, May, you will like this lesson. Nate, you will like this lesson.

And it's a lesson that is right up your guys alleys. Wow. Teams should spend a lot of money on offensive line and defensive line coaches. Because, because look at some of these teams and look at what they're getting out of players where they would be in trouble if they did not have these caliber of coaches. And I'm actually with the two losers here in the Niners and the Chiefs. I mean, the Niners defense on paper should not be good. Like, yes, you have Nick Bosa, you have Fred Warner, you have two superstars, no issues there.

Arikoms said to say, good player. What's better when they moved him inside as the year right on? But, like, Chris Kucurik has done such a good job of developing the players along that line and getting the most of the players who were kind of also ran. else for like an arden key for example a guy who you know was really lost in the shuffle in open in las Vegas yeah he was proclamation before they moved um but just you know like like guys who looked good maybe coming out of college maybe highlight they had some traits that might my profile is interesting at the nflb level and hadn't consistently delivered and then i think on the flip

side you go to andy heck with kansas city and the work they did this offseason in terms of improving their interior line and this paying for joe thuny is going to make a huge difference but Crete Humphrey, Trace Smith. I mean, that was literally watching the Nate Tice stream of Chiefs Bengals right before we hopped on. And Nate just talking about how outside of the one snap, Creed Humphrey rolled to Patrick Mahomes, like how good that interior offensive line was at run blocking and how they should have run the ball more in that game. Maybe they'd be in the Super Bowl if they had run more. So I think just, you know, that is such a difference maker because it allows you to get so much talent.

Or also to take players who might not be all that useful. teams who aren't going to make all that much money and have them be regular contributors for your football team. It's you mentioning that. It's been on my mind a lot recently just because we have this coaching carousel that's currently happening. And down here in Mobile, we were talking about it the other night. Those guys are worth their weight in gold, especially offensive line coaches.

And you look at what the Browns did with Bill Calhahn when Kevin's DeFantz got there. Not a lot of connections, right? It's not as if Callahan is a Shanahan Kubiak guy where it fits necessarily the system that they wanted to run, but they looked at having Bill Callahan as a rare opportunity. And he is the highest paid position coach in the NFL. They were willing to do that. I think it is a true inefficiency to look at that position and just say there's no salary cap on coaches.

It doesn't matter how much we pay this guy. Let's find rock stars in this area, no matter where we are in our trajectory, because it's going to make a difference. We talk coordinators and where they go. And that's what so. It's always so interesting. only what head coaches get hired, but then what assistants go with him? Like, all right. Yeah. Who likes, who wants to work with this guy? Who wants to work with this guy? Does

they let this guy out of a contract? And one of the most interesting ones is Mike Munchak with the Broncos, he's not retained or he's leaving. I don't know how amicable or whatever. But that's interesting. It's like he's like at the top free agent. And like of all sets, players, coaches. It's like I someone's going to back up a brink truck to hire him because he's, like you said, worth his weight and gold. I wish a lot of coaches got paid their weight in gold because of how much my dad weighed. Wow, got him. But he's, it's proportional.

You know, it's proportionate with that how it works. But sorry, dad. But also just, you brought up multiple times throughout this year, Robert, is the 409 his defensive line coach. And like you said, Bill with Arden Key and just no matter who gets plugged into there with the 49ers, it's a mindset. Charles Amanahus. Yeah.

And just this philosophic, you can see a mindset. And it comes from the coach. Like it's just instilled on them every day after day after day and how aggressive these guys play. And that's a great point, Bill, because I completely agree. It's these guys, it's, it's, it's, they get so much time with it, especially as practice time gets limited, as much we're going to talk about that and how much cohesiveness, a good offensiveness, a good offensive line needs or and a good defense align just with the game set that all these defenses are running now. It only gets more complicated that it just is what it is.

And as we have less practice time, that coaching becomes more important, you know, minute by minute. Yeah, that's a great, great, great lesson to learn. One of the coaches, oh, go ahead, Barre. Can I also throw in like a 1B there that I think comes to mind with me for, I guess for a couple of these coaches? It's not Andy Reed, not Sean McBay, obviously, and maybe not Carl Shanahan just because Carl Shanahan had that big contract. But I think there's a conversation to be had about being more patient with your coaching staff.

I mean, would anybody have bad at an eye if the Bengals had fired? Zach Taylor after last season. And, you know, Calhanna, yes. Like, like, because he had that big contract, because he had his reputation, he held onto his job, but he was bad his first couple years. They were, they were 10 and 22 his first two seasons. Like, I don't think he was not to pick fired, but, you know, I think there is this rush, and it's so easy for us to say, hey, you know, change the coach. They don't know what they're doing. They're limited. They suck. They're this and that. And like, Zach Taylor might be winning a Super Bowl. And I, I, I, I, I, I don't think literally any single person on the planet outside of maybe Zach Taylor.

I'm not even sure about Zach Taylor thought that was going to happen heading into the 2021 season. So I feel like that's important just to keep in mind as that you don't want to get too high or too low on certain coaches. What if you run three, three QB sneaks in a row when they're backed up? Bill, you can answer that one. Oh, boy. I do I think Joe Judge should have got a third season? I like like I was I was happy they let him go. I feel like it was the right move.

I felt like he was sort of losing his mind towards the end of the season there. But like like if the Giants had gone 10 and seven next year with Joe Judge, that wouldn't shock me. That wouldn't have been crazy. Like it would have taken some changes and they would have had to make a move on offense. But I feel like that would not have gone, that have been the most unimaginable thing in the world. That should happen with the Bengals. They went 10 and 7 this year. and then got hot in the postseason.

So I feel like, you know, we can find embarrassing or bad decisions or bad clips where every coach on the planet. And I think it's just important to keep the big picture in mind. Absolutely. So my extension, I'll do mine next because I think it's an extension of what you said, Bar and one of my lessons from these teams is it's a simple one and it seems obvious, but affecting the quarterback with four guys is still king, especially when you get into the playoffs and especially as we get to a world where

quarterback plays at such a high level that if you're bringing extra bodies and you're making it easier on them in any way, look at the quarterbacks who are playing in the divisional round in the conference championship games and look at their numbers against the Blitz. Matthew Stafford led the NFL and EPA against the Blitz by far. Mahomes, teams don't even do it anymore. They just don't do it anymore. They don't even rush four. They don't even rush four against Mahomes anymore. They only rush three.

Yeah. Yeah. So teams don't even blitz Mahomes anymore. Joe Burrow destroyed teams when they brought extra guys and teams stopped doing it. So now that we live in a world where blitzing is, the downside of it against some of these quarterbacks is so high, you need to be able to affect the game with four pass rushers. And if you look at the four teams who played last weekend, all four of them were in the top 11 in the NFL in defensive lines spending in 2021. All four.

The Bengals were 11th. The other three teams were within the top 10. the Chiefs were number one, which isn't surprising when you think about the way they've constructed that roster. The Niners, Nick Bost is still on a rookie deal, and they're still really high on that list. So I think that's important. And then also, not even beyond the resource allocation, all the Niners, Bengals, and Chiefs were all in the bottom 10 in Blitz rate over the second half of the season.

You think of the Chiefs as this big pressure team, which in previous eras and in previous iterations of a Steve's bagmoral defense, They were. But one of the reasons that their defense was better in the second half is because they didn't have to do that. When they moved Chris Jones back inside and they signed Melvin Ingram, it allowed all the pieces to kind of fit together. Even the Rams, who were middle of the pack and blitz rate this year, they're only dropping, they're only bringing five on 23% of their opponent dropbacks in the second half of the year. And one of the only reasons they do that is to create one-on-one matchups. They're not a blitz heavy team.

They're not bringing a lot of six-man pressures. So if you can affect the game with four guys and just use because the playoffs especially are so game plan heavy. Think about what the Bengals just did. You need as many bodies allocated in as many different, hard to predict ways in the back end as you possibly can. And that requires you to get home with four guys. Nate, what do you think about that? No, and it's great because my point is kind of dovetailing off of this. one of the points I wanted to bring up with this final four.

And really, actually, the bills are kind of being included in this point I'm about to make. But really just being, you ever own like a reversible belt and black and brown on one side? And might not be the nicest thing. But it's very handy to have. Like it's like black brown, boom, done. One belt got them both down. Don't have to worry about the shoes, all that. Well, that's like the Bengals defense.

And it's just that it's adjustable. It's not sexy, but being adjustable, like, going game playing heavy like you just talked about Robert. And Bill, when I was on your show last week, this kind of like, it's really got my wheels turn. And you're like, is it hard to change what your defense is week to week? That was more or less with the question you had. And I started thinking a lot about with the Bengals defense because they have so many vets

that they're able to kind of go, oh, I remember that from a different place. I can run it here now. But I think just being adjustable, being able to adjust not just during the season, but during the game matters so much with this defense and being solid and not having any true weaknesses. I feel like the bangles and the bills defense had a lot of parallels and how they were run this year. More just solid across the board. Bills were kind of like a souped up version of that, of course, you know, especially with the safeties they had and the defense alignment they had. But just more making it hard on these on these quarterbacks and adjusting what you want to run week

to week to week. If we're only going to rush four and we're only going to run three to five blitzes a game and we're really going to dial those down, okay, they have to time up well and we have to adjust when we run them. We have to adjust what we give against this opponent. The interception that my homestown on the RPO was a great example. The Bengals did not show that simulated pressure before that play. And then also in the middle of the game, they just plop it right in there on a first and 10 or second and short call out of nowhere. And really that's what it is. It's being able to adjust and adapt to what the offense is trying to play against you. And I think that's really become an importance with all these defense. I don't think having good players

yes, of course, that's not like a huge takeaway, but even more just having average to above average, not having those true weaknesses on your defenses, whereas an offense can't just attack and pick on the guy and squeeze and play sound. And I think a lot of 78 to 82 on Madden overall ratings, no on the bagels and those defenses, but to be able to adjust and be solid.

I think that's really a lesson I've learned is. The ramps are a different version. There are stars and scrubs, but that's why I like looking at these other defenses. It's like, well, they have no pro bowlers. like how is this a good defense than you watch it's soundness, be able to adjust and just be able to adapt to whatever the offense are playing against them.

So really, game plan, season adjustments. It's so funny that you say that because one of mine, I sat and looked at that Bengals defense and was trying to figure out, okay, what is the lesson that I want to learn from this? And the thing I came away from is just that you can weaponize free agency

specifically on defense and specifically in the secondary because you're going to find those 78 to 82. players in Madden. And it's hard to do. And I know Barnwell's going to get mad as I continue to say this and he's going to tell me that I'm wrong. But if you look at the way they build the secondary specifically with guys like Von Bell, with guys like Chedobie Wuzier, like you said, Nate, it's just about flexibility and about not having any true weak points. And you bring up the bills, the bills are a good comparison. Micah Hyde and Jordan Poirer are free agent signings. So as long as you can build kind of a cohesive unit on the back end that you can't pick on a guy,

they're flexible, they're smart, and they play hard, you can get by with that sort of construction in that one specific area of a defense. That's what I've taken away from the Bengals and in a way from the Bills. Barnwell, where am I wrong about that? Because I know you're going to tell me that I am. Look at the other teams that are playing in the final four maze. We have the Rams who have an absolute bona fide superstar and Jeline Ramsey and their safety, one of their safeties is a guy who was playing pickup basketball two weeks ago. The Niners, the Niners, I mean, have invested a lot of like mid-round picks in the draft,

but no superstars there, no free agent signings to my knowledge that I can think of. And the chiefs- I mean, it's guys off the street. Like Josh Norman had to play snows for them by necessity. But for the most part, it's homegrown guys. Right. And the Chiefs, I mean, it's, you know, one superstar free agent signing in Tyron Matthew, one draft pick and one Thornton Hill. And then literally, if you are a cornerback who is taking on the first round, who disappoints for your team, the chiefs are obligated by law to go actually.

for you. So I think I don't, I don't want to ruin your point, even though I think it's wrong. But what I'm going to say is that I feel like there is more than one way to stand that here. And I think what's work for the bills and work for the Bengals is meaningful. It doesn't mean that everyone can pull that off. And I think it's going to be tougher to do that. But those teams have good coaches. Those things are and, you know, they don't have that hole, I guess. Like I think if you do that, but you still have a hole or two, that's a problem. But with the bank, with the Bengals and with the bills, I mean, their, their communications for good. Their ability to pass stuff off is impressive. They're, you know, they're a very intelligent

defense. They're very sound. They don't make a lot of mistakes. I feel like, you know, yes, you want to have jail and rooms. Yes, you want to have guys who are going to create some takeaways. But that's another way to do it, a viable way to do it. And really, I've drawn this comparison from soccer bill. It's been interesting to see that some of these defenses are built through the spine. Yeah. And that's what's really kind of maybe something to, like, I don't know what I look at, but like just something that's really come to the prominence. Safety play matters more than ever. I mean, we've for a year on this show have talked about how much safeties matter now,

but that's going with the adjustable. You know, the interchangeable safeties. Having interchangeable safety matters more than ever. And that's the spine. As we go to this too high world for sure. And then now it's linebackers. How the offense is going to attack it?

Well, they're going to attack the Mike linebackers. So that's the spine. Okay, if we're going to be in too high, who has to win? Well, the defensive tackles have to hold their gaps. So it's all just being built through the interior, which I think is very interesting that not saying that corners don't matter or any of that sort, but how these positions are now swinging back to like, oh, wow, we actually need a nose tackle. Oh, wow, we actually need like safeties that can cover and do a lot of things. Maybe not this all world guy, but guys that are just balanced. I think balance is becoming just the name of the game for offenses and defenses.

I was talking to a GM a couple weeks ago, and we were talking just hypothetically about positional value and where you find certain guys. And we're talking about safety specifically. And even if we're trending toward an NFL in a football world where safeties are more valuable because of the way that they're playing, you can find them. There is a Von Bell in virtually every single free agent cost. You can get them this way. And that's not always true for positions that we're going to try to prioritize, which I think is interesting. And I think that's kind of the thing that I took away from the Bengals, from the Bills, that spot, you can find guys that maybe aren't necessarily super, demand but can allow you to function defensively the way that you want to.

Yeah, but I mean, again, look at the Rams where they're starting such as right now are Nick Scott, who's a special teamer who's been playing out of his mind for most of this playoffs. And then Weddell, a guy who like I said, you know, obviously once in a punner super star playing picket basketball a month ago, he had one of the plays of the conference championships that that run fit to what's this, who did he stuff? Was it wasn't the use check play. It was the play before that, right? Yeah, he had. Yeah, it was the NFL on the play before that.

Chanhan was talking about it specifically. Yeah. And he was asked about it. He put out his mind on Sunday, by the way. Right. It was insane. I couldn't believe how fast he was moving. I was like, what is what happened?

Like, right. Got on that TB 12 method. Right. Fresh, man. He's fresh. Yeah, fresh legs. Yeah. So I think there's just that feeling of like, you know, there's a bunch of ways to do this.

And I think, you know, when you have that. superstar cornerback, I think it does make the rest of your players life easier. Or you have Aaron Donald, for example. Like that stuff makes everyone life safe here. Totally. Barnwell, what's your next one? My next one is pretty much the opposite of what you guys were talking about. My next one, my next one is let's get some freaks.

Like, you need some freaks of skill positions to be playing at this level in the NFL at this point. I mean, think about the teams who are left and what they have at the skill positions. The Niners, I mean, they're the poster child, right? you have Debo, you have George Kiddell, with the Bengals, you have Jamar Chase. Even Ayyuk is crazily talented. Yes. Yes, but like relative to Kittle and Debo, it's like almost, you know, like he's like the, oh, well, he's okay.

But obviously he's incredible. He's a regos star. Right, exactly. Exactly. Like he's going to have eight number one hits, but everyone's going to like, ah. The Bengals, of course, have Chase and Higgins and Joe Mixon, who I think people sleep on him, but who is a super athlete. own. And the chiefs, I don't need to tell you what the chiefs have. Like the Rams are strangely almost the exception, even though obviously Cooper Cup is playing out of his mind.

But like, you know, I feel like they have, we're seeing teams who are winning because they're absolutely physically dominant players are capable of winning. I, mine, the number one, my number one, the one that was first on my list is that the presence of a matchup destroying past catcher has never been more important, which is a, corollary of this. There were seven all pro pass catchers this season, okay? Five wide receivers and two tight ends. Four of them played last weekend. Travis Kelsey, Debo, Samuel, Cooper, Cup, and Jamar Chase. Five of them played in the divisional round if you include Devante Adams. And Barnwell, we talk about this on our show all the time, and especially with the playoffs. And we

use the Rams as an example. It's a matchup based set of mini tournaments. All you need to do is within an individual game, find a matchup that you can continue to win, and it's going to give you a great chance. And for the Rams last week, that was Cooper Cup. Every single time, the Niners were going to play man coverage on third down, Cooper Cup was going to be able to win for them. In certain cases, Debo Samuel has been that sort of player where you just crush and destroy matchups for the Niners.

Jamar Chase was that in the Chiefs game that kind of got the Bengals into the playoffs. He was that in moments against the Titans in hugely important. important spots. So I mean, I think that, you know, I'll have an offensive line point that I want to get to later. And obviously, we have a long, long chase stool discussion all off season. But having one of these guys that when it's a high leverage moment, when we need somebody who can just erase what the structure of the defense is supposed to be, that is almost a prerequisite to being a contender in the NFL right now for me. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, I can go into my next point because this is associated with freaks. get a quarterback then get you a freaking bucket. I'm not, I'm not saying like this is a new point. This is more of an emphasis.

It is important to hammer at home, though, because it's on my list as well. We need to keep doing it because we're going to, it's been a fucking amnesia again. And it's going to be the spring. They're like, oh, they can win with Ryan Tannhill. We're going to do it again. And we need to stop doing it. I know because when you watch these four quarterbacks go at it and, okay, Joe Burrow doesn't do everything through the air. It's Joe Burrow with his legs.

Okay. that's that's getting a bucket. It's getting a bucket with your legs. We don't even have to talk about Josh out on the divisional round. But then even Mahomes, even before he kind of fell apart the second half, the first half, he created two touchdowns. The touchdown to McCole Hardman and the flat was Mahomes going rogue. He was going to throw it. It was a shovel.

And then he was like, I shouldn't say rogue, but adjusting to what the defense was giving him. Hardman's wide open and a flat. All right, I'm not throwing a shovel. I'm just going to plop it right over there. Red zone. Like that's where to just create these plays. And of course, Stafford, Cups beating man. And then Stafford has to throw those to man,

beat the man coverage. The timing that he has, when defenses get tighter and tighter and tighter, like we've mentioned already three times on the show, is that everything is game planning in the playoffs. Everything gets tighter, tighter, tighter. They're on our shit. Every formation, they have a whole season of formation tells,

a whole season of down-and-distance tells. Okay, well, if they know what we're running, how do I beat it still? How do they run the perfect coverage? They're quarters and they're driving on the backside dig. Well, do I have a quarter of a, that throws it on time and nails it. It doesn't even matter if they cover it tight.

And then you see that, see the three quarterbacks I just mentioned, and then you see a Jimmy G of the world. And it's like, yes, when everything's perfect, I know that sounds mean, but when everything's perfect, yeah, it's great. Well, what if the run gang gets shut down? And now it's third and seven, and he has to hit a corner throw against man.

He has to hit a deep dig against man. Those types of coverages makes you dead. If you can't, the quarterback can't find a throw, or if he's wrong and he doesn't find the throw, can you create with his legs afterwards just creating those throws it's that's really what the point of this is is that you need that guy when everything's not perfect doesn't freaking matter he's just going to find you a play and keep moving the chains and keep it going and i know it sounds obvious oh yeah good a league quarterback but it matters it matters find you a freak find you a freak at that position

i have i have two follow-up questions i have a serious one and a silly one which one do you want first serious silly one first oh silly Okay, pick your poison. I will go silly first. Where does Joe Burrow rank on the pickup basketball of NFL quarterback rankings? Where is he being drafted? Oh, he'd be number one for me. I would pick him number one.

Number one over Josh Allen? Joe Burrow can play basketball. Joe Burrow was a basketball player. Oh, we're actually like to say legit basketball? You don't think every NFL quarterback can play basketball, like was like not a high school basketball player. if they wanted to be. That's very true. Joe Burrow, I think it was Taylor Rooks tweeted this recently that he told her that she could,

he could score 12 points in an NBA game. I, I legitimately believe that Joe Burrow could maybe score 12 points in an NBA game. That man is just fueled by irrational confidence all the time. I want him on my pickup basketball team. This peer, you can't hate that guy because it's just like every take he has is like, this guy's great. This guy's awesome.

It's awesome. It's so, it's so. It's awesome. That's so funny. It's like the flip side. So like Joe Mauer, he's, like a Minnesota high school sports legend. Of course, he gets drafted by the twins, number one overall.

He was the Gatorade player of the year in football, Gatorade player of the year in baseball. And then they're like, oh, he played basketball too. And he's like, yeah, I wasn't that good at basketball. And you look up his stats. He was like two-time Allstate, average like 24 points a game, like eight rebounds a game. And it's like, maybe I like the Joe Burrough side where I'm going to, I'm scored 20, 20 a night in the NBA, as opposed to Joe Maricone.

Like, ah, it's my third. It's a hobby. Like my third best sport, probably going to play low-level D1 in basketball as well. But yeah, all these guys are pretty. Pretty much freaks. Have you ever seen Philip Rivers play basketball? It was like, it's actually like, he's insane. He's like, actually, you're like, good. It's, yeah, it's that makes total sense to me. That is not surprising to me. So what's your serious? What's your serious question about? Oh, hold on. Oh, yeah. I cheated and I look a couple things up.

Patrick Mahomes averaged 19 and 8 as a high school basketball player. But the NFL quarterback who was recruited to play college basketball by programs such as Georgetown and Gonzaga after starring at Westlake High School in Austin, Texas. Do either of you guys know? At Westlake? Drew Breeze? Breeze, yeah. Not Drew Breeze.

Stafford? Was Stafford? No, Stafford went to Highwood Park. Nick Foles? Nick Foles. I could see. He's like 6'5. Is he at that 6-6 threshold, Robert?

Like, that's where the cutoff hits. Like, oh, good at basketball now. He's 6-6. He is 6. He is 6. He fits the two tall quarterback theory that has now been smashed to pieces by Justin Herbert. Okay. Okay.

My serious question is knowing what you just said and agreeing with what you just said, Nate, when it comes to sort of not having those or not just settling for a mid to your quarterback, like how do you actually, what do you do about that for an NFL GM? Like, do you just not settle for those guys? Are you actively trying to trade away one of those guys? like, you know, I mean, we've seen lesser quarterbacks win the Super Bowl. We saw Nick Bowles win a Super Bowl. We saw Joe Flacco.

We saw Eli Manning win two Super Bowls. And yes, like Billy Manning was very good. I don't want to turn this into an Eli podcast. But you get the idea. Like those guys are not like, oh, my God, they are guaranteed week after week MVP candidates. So how do you handle that if you're a GM? How aggressive are you willing to get to try and get one of those guys? I think with that, the quarterback position, again, one of those types of guys is such a good question.

it just makes everything else easier. It just raises that bar. We talk about Pazelot on the show, like, hey, they give themselves five options now to go down. The Rams on the other side, it's like, hey, they're all in. This is their window. They're pushing it. It's when you have an elite guy, not everybody else has to be perfect.

And those guys, like you say, the Nick Foles of the world, okay, that was a hot run of all hot runs. And it also led by a schematic advantage when they were kind of emphasizing the RPO's and they were just going for broke every game. The Eey's of the world was relying on the, the NASCAR defense align, you know, but spags actually kind of funny that comes I also think 10 years ago, we lived in a different version of the NFL. Different version.

Yeah. And even then, though, but you can take, take kind of the historical examples of all that. It's like, oh, yeah, you need to rely on so many other things. When Jimmy G almost won a couple years ago is because same thing, their defense aligned was literally unblockable. Like it was pressure every single snap. But that's requiring hitting on three or four different guys. And I get it. I'm kind of talking about both sides of my mouth. You want to have confidence at the position so you can at least like, hey, we're. contender we can make the playoffs and get that bonus. But I think it's just, it leads to more room for error if you just have that guy.

And also you could just pray that your former assistant GM gets a GM job for the Detroit Lions. So that trade, that trade avenue opens up a little bit more. I think that also helps as well. My, the way that I would answer this question, because one of mine was you need one of the guys. And it's, I've come back to it the entire season. I said it in week four when I was watching Baker Mayfield and I was watching Justin

Herbert. and you saw the gap between those two guys. And I think it's exactly for exactly the reason that you're saying, is that you just need somebody that can make you right. In the playoffs especially, when we have these hyper-specific game plans meant to take away one aspect of who you are, you need to be able to do something else. You need a problem-solver at the position,

not a cog within the machine. But there are only so many of those guys. So I think the two things I would say about the process of finding one is, when there is an opportunity to go get one, you have to do it. You have to take that door when it is presented to you. The Chiefs could have stuck with Alex Smith if they wanted to. They could have kept going down that road.

They took the door when Patrick Mahomes was there. The Rams could not have made the Stafford Trade. They could have said, oh, two first round picks, geez, that's a little too rich for our blood. But they did it. They opened the door when it was available to them. And the connecting point of that is, you can't commit to the middling quarterback.

You can have one. If you need it for a year, if you need to draft one, if you draft one and he doesn't become that guy, write it out. I don't think the Browns have to go get a new quarterback this year. Maker Mayfield is making $18 million. That's totally reasonable for what Maker Mayfield is in the grand scheme of quarterback finances. But I don't think you can commit to that guy the way the Rams committed to Jared Gough. I think that is where the problem arises.

So when you have a chance to go get one, do everything you can to maximize that chance and don't prevent yourself from going to get one because you've saddled yourself to one of those middling. I need everything to be right quarterbacks. That would be my answer. That's the issue, though, I wonder about is, are teams good enough to figure out which is which? Like the Rams, yes, I'll sit here now and say, hey, you know, Matthew Stafford was a major upgrade and they paid, like Matthew Stafford was a major upgrade.

And I do think Matthew Stafford is better than Jared Gough. but like if you talk to that franchise after year three when they signed tariff off to that extension like they were they were obstinate about it like oh of course jared goff is one of those guys you're an idiot if you think otherwise and to be fair that was the year jared goff had that five touchdown game against the vikings he had the 54thian game against the chiefs like like he had gazedard he looked like he was that dude and he was still young enough to be growing and developing so i think in the nars of course i mean they trade for jimigoplo he goes like six and o at the end of that season or five at the end of that season he was good with the Patriots and like yes like you know what

happened happened I don't want to criticize them for making these moves but I just want to ask like how outside of like the just total you know one-of-one types the Mahomes is the Allens where you have no doubt about signing them like that middle ground of guys not the cousins necessarily but someone like a got given the situation got was in er wince when when signed his contract like Like, how easy is it for team to get, seems to get sort of distracted or diluted by the idea that they have one of these guys? I think it's easy. And I also think it's a matter of when you go to get one, right? It's, I think it's so much easier.

And I understand this is hard. I really do understand that this is difficult. It's much, much easier to follow this kind of mini plan that I've laid out when you draft a guy and you have four years to decide whether or not you want to extend it. In the case of the Garapolo and Tanahill situations, you don't have that time. You have one year after you've acquired that quarterback to decide whether you want to keep him. And based on the success both of those teams had in that short run before that decision, it made sense for them to tie themselves to that quarterback. This is hard, right?

It's hard for a bunch of different reasons because I think, and I had this discussion with Mitch the other day, this is talking about it in kind of ideal experimental conditions where it's in a vacuum. We don't do this in a vacuum. These GMs have to keep their jobs. If you have a top five-ish offense and you're winning 10 games a year, tying yourself to that quarterback so you don't lose your job makes a lot of sense. But if you're trying to compete with Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen every single year,

even if you can win 10 games a couple of times, ultimately you're going to realize that you're playing a different game and one you're probably going to lose. Yeah. It's self-awareness is a hell of a trait. I mean, that's really what it is. It's so crazy because you can, well, I've been on teams where you're in this and you're like, well, this is our guy. There's nothing that teams want more than their guy, whether it be the Jimmy G's world or any of that.

And you get pot committed. It sounds like that's what it comes down to. It's either all in or stopgap. You know, you max it or stopgap. You're taking a semi bluff hoping that the flush hits, you know, something of that sort. That's what it kind of feels like. But that's, that requires self-awareness. And some of these teams, you can talk yourselves into it.

Now, I'm just kind of agreeing with Robert's saying right here. It's hard. It's hard. You have to have awareness outside of your bunker and as an organization going like, is our guy 16th best? Is our guy 18th best? Is he eighth best? And that, because that's a world of difference. That's two first round.

Basically a first rounder per tier is basically what the tradeoff is going from my golf to Stafford. Like that's basically what you're trading up. But it's also interesting what the 40-Iers do because they have the same kind of feel. on it is they traded all those picks they moved up to tray lance and that's like a funny little experiment itself that's going on there right that is to me the biggest example and the biggest argument for why this is necessary is that in order to win a super bowl in order to be a consistently relevant team with one of these middle tier quarterbacks you need an offensive system and an offensive play caller that is going to consistently make the circumstances perfect or near perfect

that is going to consistently provide those edges for you two of the guys who are maybe two of the best five guys in the world doing that. Let's throw Andy Reid in there as three. Were those guys looked around and said, I need one of the alien guys. All of them came to that conclusion independently of one another and they were best set up to create those ideal circumstances for a guy who can't create it for himself.

And I just think that's so incredibly telling that that moment of self-awareness came for those three guys. So if it's not coming for you, you fucked up. I think the end last year was, it's funny looking back at the Rams season last year, you know, the John Wolford experiment and it was like McVeigh had to get his teeth pulled. That's when we should have gone.

We should have. We got off back on the field. It was that was, they're fighting on the sidelines, you know, in their own passive aggressive way. But it was, that was so interesting in seeing looking back,

you know, looking back through the lens of a year later and seeing what the path that happened with that team because there's a month later, it's three, four weeks later that it's like, Stafford Trade as I'm playing a board game with my wife and you're texting me. We got to do an emergency pot on the Stafford Trade. But it's just funny seeing like those guys have those epiphanies and they're like, okay, what's our avenues? What's avenues we can to upgrade to go tier or two tiers better? And I think it's just important to keep the avenues open.

If you're the Browns, you can keep Baker Mayflow for right now, you take every phone call. You field every phone call. You make every phone call and you see what else is out there. What's your next one, buddy? I have one more question about this related to the one quarterback, I think, is plausibly going to be available who fits the better than Matthew Stafford, obviously, criteria this offseason, and that's Aaron Rogers, right? Like, given what happened here over these past few weeks, given how many of the teams who have been remaining are just left with absolute aliens at quarterback and having one alien available this off season to work with, like, what is the cutoff line? for a guy who's in his late 30s who's getting a you know a new contract like is it that's the number that was in my mind that's the number I have three you're not you're not willing to give up three or you're willing to give up three if I was the right team in the right circumstances

like if I'm Cleveland and they said all right it's three first round picks I do it tomorrow would you I'm driving Baker machel to the airport and saying saying we don't we don't have we don't have a trade for you Baker just go somewhere else also we'll figure out something along the way like i i a holding pen like yeah he's a player to be named later like a baseball trade like that that that's what it happens to his future generations the rancers two first round picks from matthew stafford yeah they haven't looked back one time oh i happened i don't know if that's true nah i don't think they but but right now they're not for sure that's what matters right yeah i there are some moments with his decision making that

think really make you worry. But what their offenses looked like and just, they're number one in EPA over the course of the year. They have the best passing offense, the most efficient passing offense in football. I mean, I think it's hard to overstate the value of these guys. It's just hard.

It's hard to figure out what the value really is. Three first round picks, $50 million a year. It's worth it. It is typically worth it. And that's why the Derek Carr of it all is interesting to me. I was waiting for you to bring up his name, because this is like you're like.

Because he's not in that tier, but he's also like one tier above some of the other guys. Yeah. Again, that's why this shit is very, very hard. All right, we can talk about this for six hours. Barlow, what's your next one? Oh, if I don't have another one, I must. Let me see. Uh, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, too.

Oh, I have one. This is kind of a classic. I'm going to play the hits here. Don't bother paying running backs, guys. Like, look at these teams. The Rams have cabakers who's been kind of middling since coming back from his torn Achilles. They got by just fine with Sony Michelle and Daryl Henderson.

The Niners, I mean, paid a bunch of guys. Their best running back is Debo Samuel. Their second best running back is a six-round pick. Trace Sermon, who they traded up for, like might literally be in a doghouse somewhere because Kyle Shanahan had never wants to play him. The guy who Calshanahan people, hate so much money to acquire, Jericho Kenyon was the best running back

for the Chiefs during the postseason. For nothing. For nothing. Glide Edwards away, their first round pick is like good in a situational role, but like it's not remotely comparable to the player they had a year ago. And yes, granted, Joe Mixon is the exception. And I think Joe Mixon is a really good running back.

But like of the other teams here, like how is the lesson that this position, it matters, but there's so many ways to get to, useful players that it's not worth paying a premium for the particular player to have as the every downback or something close to the every down back on your roster. I think that's, I'm sorry, but even just the like running backs, the top end, you don't want pay them. I mean, look what's happened to CMC and those types of guys.

I love CMC, but it's a, it's a deeper well. Yeah. I think these teams realize of a, you know, I want to say replacement player, but just more of finding a useful player. if the teams kind of know what they're looking for. The McKinnon's a good one because he has juice and, you know, you could find use for a player like that. But there's so many of these guys that just get the Seahawks signing Adrian Peterson off the street.

But there's so many useful running backs out there that, yeah, you're not going to have this bell cow. You don't need to find a bell cow anymore. You just need to find a guy that can get you that 10 to 12 touches and get creative and find the uses for them. All these guys are better pass catchers than they were even 10 years ago. It's really this type that's kind of. to come in. It's either the Jonathan Taylor, Nick Chubbs of the world, or it's the Camaro's of the world, the 200, I'm not, Camaro's of upper echelon one, but those 200 pound scatback types that we call scatbacks are more three down types. And I think there's just such a deeper well because

what comes out of college now, all these guys have to catch. Like they have to just because of the offenses. They're five, you know, five out offenses. They're inepty. They're spread. They're running and just the traits that go with them. So I'm kind of agreeing with you. That's a deeper well. the barameters higher but these teams have to be more willing to mine for it i think that's a better way put it not just like to talk about corners and the retreads that the chiefs do with the quarterbacks there's more running backs out there to be found and i think that's a i'm just kind of agreeing with your point but just having dovetelling it with a little bit bill that's fine i mean i i can tell you that the so the best the best is it possible that the best running back the best running backs

of the NFL postseason were Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes, and Devo Samuel, three guys who are not running backs in terms of their running value to their teams over the three-game window or the four-game window. Versatility's king now. That's what it is. All these guys have to be, every quarterback has to be dual threat, even if we don't consider them dual threat how we used to, but be able to use your legs and runemarks have to be able to catch and receivers should be able to run.

Like, really, that's what it's becoming. And on defense, it's the same thing. Just same thing. Linebackers have to be able to cover, play the rod, blitz, because they're using them in every which way. Safety's the linebackers are getting the same body type. It's really a speaks to versatility as well. But I know that's not exactly what you're saying, but it's like kind of, it's interesting

that all these guys have to be able to just be complete football players now, as opposed to this guy's 230 pounds, give them the ball 20 times and have a, have a fullback in front of them. It's all about being versatile now. Well, I also think that if we're going back to the, you know, draft just the, Uber athlete guys. It seems true for running backs too. If you're going to spend a second-ish round pick, which if you think about the borderline

success stories for high running back investments recently, they're all second round picks. Nick Chub, Derek Henry, Joe Mixon, Jonathan Taylor, all of them were second round picks. And all of them, those guys have otherworldly physical profiles. Jonathan Taylor, Nick Chubb, are like off the... literally off the charts in terms of their athletic traits. And those kind of guys are worth betting on in that range. But drafting a guy who has kind of a weird, unique, specific skill set like Clyde Edwards

Alair in the first round, just doesn't make a lot of sense. Yeah. Go for the freaks. Right, Bill? Draft the freaks. It's big athletes. That's where you go for all these positions. But yeah, I agree, Robert.

All the, it's second round. You find these guys. And actually in this upcoming class, there's a lot of second and third rounders. You don't have to waste a pick in the 20s on this. You just don't, Naji Harris is not worth it. It's not worth juice to squeeze, especially with that pick where you can find other positions. Right. And Nashi Harris is good.

Like, it's not, yes, I think Nashi Harris. It's just, it's like, it's just acknowledging that there's so many interesting players out there. And it's not about, you know, let's not pay these guys, but more just there were so many guys who deserve NFL salaries. Yeah. It's like a bunch of 3D, guys. Yeah. So Barnwell shutting up and playing the hits, so I will too. Let's talk about some offensive lines.

Okay. I think this is kind of an extension of the conversation we were having about the Bengal secondary, how those spots going and finding proven veterans is a way to do this and a way to be successful. When you're building an offensive line, consider the veteran pool. Make sure that don't be scared off by the trade market. don't be scared off by the free agent market because you can build an offensive line that way. There are some positions where it's going to be difficult to do that. The offensive line doesn't seem to be one of them.

Look at the Niners offensive line. Trent Williams, trade. Lake and Tomlinson, trade. Alex Mack signed in free agency. The Rams offensive line. Andrew Whitworth was the centerpiece of their first free agent class. Austin Corbett is somebody they got on the veteran market. The chiefs.

They trade for Orlando Brown. They sign Joe Tunney in free agency. So every single one of these teams has some guys that a team intentionally went out and got either through a free agent signing or through some sort of trade. You can get guys through those means as a means of rebuilding your offensive line. And I think that's worth keeping into consideration when you're, I don't know, a team like the Chicago Bears who theoretically could be rebuilding its offensive line this year and is going to need to be thinking about some of this stuff. Yeah. lines to raise the floor quarterback carries the ceiling.

Yes, that's a really good way to put it. Thank you. Once in a while I have those gems. I can't say a lot of words. Robert has to correct me a lot or I have to look at him and go, how do I say that? Once a while I black out and have a moment. You had a really good point on your Twitch team about how there's three things

an offense has to do in a given play. And there's three goals versus, you know, baseball or hockey or basketball where there's one goal. And I think there's not, there's truth to that as well. that came out, Colleen. I'm glad.

Yeah, that was a, I, I've, I'm very interesting because I want to, I, that's the thing. I love the movement at this analytics and figure out what is useful and figure out what we can find from it. That's why there's something with running a ball and there's going to be a, there's going to be a stat we'll figure out. And I, I compared that the pitch framing before. It's like we didn't know how important that was. I, same thing with football and basketball, you're trying to score either a two-pointer or three-pointer and the defense is trying to stop you from scoring in 24 seconds or less.

In baseball, it's, hey, get a hit. We're getting on base. And the defense is a pitcher. It's a one-on-one matchup. That's really, that's the goal. It's get a hit. Hopefully it's a home run. In football, there's so many goals you can have.

Yes, every offensive play is designed to score a touchdown. But then there's, you know, auxiliary goals, getting a first down or getting an efficient play. And so that's what someone asked a question. They said, why are third down defense is so much different? And that's, that's where that rant or whatever you want to say, galaxy brain take came from. was because that's what it is.

On third down, the goal is get a first down. Yeah, we want to score, but get a first down. That's really the primary goal that changes. So it's just, it's just interesting in finding why some plays are better than others and also just how every down and distance changes what the goal of the play is. Yeah. But thank you. Now, to address Mays's point, May is, how do you explain the Bengals being here with their

offensive line? Oh, it's impossible. How? I don't even, I truly am not even thinking about it as a data point because it doesn't make any sense. It would be a terror, anyone who is taking away from the Bengals being here, you know what? We don't need to worry about that, really. That is wrong. That is not the correct takeaway from the Bengals playing in this game.

You do, you cannot do this. They are hanging by a, they are hanging by a thread. I mean, there is one or two plays that go a different way. Chris Jones finishes off that sack. We may not even be talking about the Bengals this week. So I, but we are. They have gotten here because they have gotten here because

Jamar Chase and the skill position talent that they've acquired is incredible because Joe Burroughs true superpower physically as a quarterback is being evasive in the pocket. His actual strengths happen to align with, where the Bengals are weakest and has allowed them to transcend that shortcoming at this stage of the of the season. And guess what? Their defense has gotten them here. Their offense has not lit the world on fire in the playoffs. They've scored under 20 points and won a playoff game.

Their defense is the reason that they are here combined with some scattered plays and some scattered brilliance from Joe Burrow. So I am taking away nothing from the Bengals offensive line as part of this conversation. Okay, just ignore the data points that don't fit your theory. You're perfect for the analytics movement, Mayas. You're welcome here now. Let me ask you another question. How much did it hurt you to see the Niners unable to block fullback lead or fullback belly with the game on the line and Trent Williams going in motion?

How much it hurt you to see the wizard of run plays and the most dynamic offensive liners in the league not too enough to block with the game on the line? It's not Wizards of the Coast It's Wizards of the West Coast It's Well, it's I think that that has a lot to do With the other players

On the 49ers offensive line Who did not shower themselves in glory Last week against that front for the Rams For sure. No, I mean, I think it's just I absolutely agree But again, I think there's that question to me

Of is it better to go out And say, okay, listen, we're going to invest just a ton of money and a ton of draft picks on our offensive line? Or is it better to say, okay, we're just going to get Bill Callahan and we're going to have talent for sure. But he's going to get the most of the guys who might be, you know, he's going to take average players and make them good or good players that make them great. Like I think the bonus factor of having that great offensive line coach is so valuable that, you know, you might want to target that coach more than you target a couple of players. That's a hugely important part of this.

I don't think you need to spend a ton on your. offensive line. I don't think you need the most expensive free agents or a guy you have to trade a first round pick to go get. I think it's you can find guys who are not necessarily that expensive, who are available, guys who are available. And guys that typically, the guys that hit the market, we're talking about that 78 to 82 on Madden that Nate was referring to. If you build your offensive line out of five of those guys, I think that you can do just fine. I don't think you need a superstar or a couple on your offensive line. I think you need,

I think you need to embrace the idea that you can rebuild your offensive line faster than you think because there are more functional pieces available through the veteran pool that it might seem like there are at first glance. I think that's my takeaway. You know how Tom Brady just got inducted into the 99 club in Madden? I feel like Nate need to start inducting people into the 78 to 82 club. Or if they graduate from it.

Yeah. Yeah. He's, he's in the 80s. 83 club now is the 83 club yeah that might have to be it right now this is no this is such a great point about even going from the first point about how much line coaches matter is like you said bill taking it up average player making them above average just bumping them up a tier and just that kind of multiplier effect that a good old line coach can have and a good center can have that's the other thing good centers can really make everything else look a lot better for sure but justice miscata he

always had a great point about when you sign an offense alignment or draft an offense alignment And what are they as far as your starters? Is he your O line three? Yeah. Or is he your O line five? Is your O line one? And I always like that because it's, yeah, it's not having, yes, it helps to have all pros and pro bowlers littered throughout your line, but it's really where's the weakness?

Or is it, do we have one guy that's a 68, like number 60 for the 49ers at right guard? Or do we have a whole bunch of guys at 71 or, sorry, 81, you know, 85 and we have one guy that's kind of pro bowlish. And I think that's what a good old line coach does, too, is that, you know, also get a bump from these middle round picks. Hey, he might be a better identifier of talent than other O-line coaches are or D-O-line coaches. Hey, he finds some guy in the third or fourth round. Some guys don't like him as a scheme fit or he sees something that works for them, grows them. And then that third rounder is a starter for you. A fourth rounder is a starter for you. And then it's just kind of

a doubling down effect of, hey, now we don't have to invest as much. We don't have to take first rounders every single year. We don't have to. So it's just, yes, you have to invest in the line, but you don't have to invest as much as long as you have a coach that makes sense for it. Yeah. Nate, do you have one more? I have one more.

Yeah, it's kind of funny. One of my points, just in case we wanted to change it up was how far can your skill guys take the offense? We already touched on that with the Bengals. But the other one is, and we're talking about new quarterbacks with Stafford,

going to the Rams, and I mean, just all the other ones are about to happen, I think. But also, in a league, kind of more open to player traits, to player movement.

I think this is kind of become, not a new trend, but it's kind of picking up every year, led by the Rams, of course, is the acclamation period of getting these guys in a midseason trade

or a midseason signing. I think that's going to be a very interesting development. We have an extra game now. That's an extra game to kind of go, hey, we don't need to play these guys. We have extra, we have bigger practice squads.

We have bigger, just kind of roster movement. And that's led some from COVID, but I think also that's going to stick because I think teams like it. Like we get to develop 15 guys as opposed to six. And we could churn the bottom of the roster. Why I'm saying all that is when you acquire these stars, the Rashid Wallace's and the midseason trade for the Pistons, you know, those types of things that we see in baseball and somewhat in basketball.

Now we see it more in football. And it's not going to be all the time, but I think there's going to be more openness to it. And I'm using the Rams as my example here to kind of lead this conversation. But we have younger coaches coming in. Personnel guys that the roles are expanding. We understand these types of things. there's more of a willingness to do these things, to make changes in midseason, to add new talent. Because before it's like, well, they weren't here in training camp.

They don't understand our scheme. I think now as things become more cookie cutter throughout the league, I should say cookie cutter, but it's a copycat league. Sure. But really, it's hybrid. It's insane how these offenses have become just hybrid versions of each other. Just you have a little emphasis on other things. But the Von Miller's and OBJs, like with the Rams brought in trade and signing,

took about three to four weeks for them to figure out how to get. get them in. Melvin Ingram. Melvin Ingram. Another great example. Those types of guys, I think there's going to be just more willingness to do that. Some teams bottoming it out, even if they're not getting paid $100,000 for every loss. They're just not really looking at that, but they might just go, hey, this star is a little pissed off and he wants to get paid. Let's see if we can get a third for him. Let's see if we can get a second for him. And there's, I think, these more of these contender teams that understand, hey, this is our window. We're six and two right now and it feels pretty good. We can make this work. I think there's just going to be more

willingness to make these types of trades, these mid-season types of trades for teams that are truly contending. And I think that's just going to be a market. I'm really interested. I think players are more vocal. They are more worldly. Just every year, players and just people in general, become more worldly, more aware of what their situations are. So I think that's more of, you know, they don't really protect the, protect the team on the helmet. It's more like, where am I winning and where am I getting paid? And I think there's just going to be more willingness, coach is going, I understand, hey, yeah, we'll get you to a better setup. And then that coach being willing to adapt to it.

So it's more just, I don't know if it's a takeaway, an observation, a prediction, but I'm just very curious if there's more and more teams that are willing to do it. Yeah. Awesome. I think that's all we got. Barnwell, I really appreciate you coming to do this. It's always great to chat with you. I'm so glad that we got to do it with Nate on the show.

So when are we talking about the men's national team now? So what did you think? How'd you like? absolutely not absolutely not look at de la tori uh look pretty good yeah yeah i got you guys you guys i got an ftr shirt on your own by the way i got an ftr shirt on for you there we go yeah i knew it was a special occasion all right guys thank you very very much everyone thank you very very much for listening sincerely appreciate the time please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice very much appreciate that please subscribe to the

deathlife.com slash football show. We have so much Super Bowl coverage coming your way here over the next week or so. We'll be back on Monday with obviously a slightly different Monday show because there are no games, but that's going to be exciting with a little bit of a surprise there. So please come back and check that out. In the meantime, enjoy your weekend. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you later.

This was the Athletic Football Show.