The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Let's take a ride on the 2025 coaching carousel with Conor Orr + the rise of Kevin O'Connell with Jourdan Rodrigue and Alec Lewis

Episode Date: December 10, 2024

The 2025 coaching carousel has been spinning since the Jets surprisingly fired Robert Saleh in October. Since then, the Bears and Saints have officially hopped on board, and we know at least three or four more are going to join them. Who else might be looking for a coach after the season? What should we expect from Bill Belichick, Ben Johnson and Aaron Glenn? Who might be the surprise candidates that emerge in January? Conor Orr from Sports Illustrated joins Robert Mays to break down the upcoming coaching cycle on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Then, The Athletic's Jourdan Rodrigue and Alec Lewis discuss with Robert a recent success on the coaching carousel: Vikings head coach Kevin O'Connell.RundownHead coach openingsPotential surprise openingsGood job or bad job?Bill BelichickBen JohnsonAaron GlennBrian FloresMike VrabelLiam CoenTodd MonkenJoe BradyOff-the-beaten path candidatesFirst-time coordinator candidatesThe rise of Kevin O'ConnellHost: Robert MaysWith: Conor Orr, Jourdan Rodrigue and Alec LewisExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Conor on Bluesky: @conororr.bsky.socialFollow Jourdan on Bluesky: @jourdanrodrigue.bsky.socialFollow Alec on Bluesky: @aleclewis.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassFollow Conor on X: @ConorOrrFollow Jourdan on X: @JourdanRodrigueFollow Alec on X: @alec_lewisTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Brought to you by Thursday Night Football only on Prime Video. I'm Robert Mays. It's Coach's Day on the Athletic Football Show. We've done this for the last couple years. I always love digging into the pool of coaching candidates with our buddy Connor or from Sports Illustrated. He does a fantastic job just doing all the legwork on the possible guys who get hired in these cycles.

There are 27 names for head coaching candidates on the list that he does for SI. So we dug into not all 27, but the guys near the top of that list. what their candidacies might look like in this cycle. As kind of an extension of this conversation, we also had Jordan Rodriguez, two of our fantastic writers at The Athletic On, to discuss the piece they wrote earlier this season about Kevin O'Connell. As we think about archetypes that NFL teams, NFL organizations are going to be chasing, Kevin O'Connell is going to be one of those names that consistently comes up.

So I wanted to talk to them about what makes Kevin O'Connell a special coach and what are some of those traits that might be worth seeking out if you're a team in the market for one of these guys. So very excited to get to both of those conversations. Let's get to it. Well, we've been dancing around this for the last couple weeks. Last time Connor was on, we alluded to the fact that we did this, or we were going to do this, and then on Sunday night, I alluded to the fact that we were going to do this this week. But I always love talking to our buddy Connor or about the coaching cycle. He does fantastic work on it. I think it's an area that we both have a particular interest in. So really digging into this each year has been

one of my favorite things that we've gotten to do on the show. So we're running it back and we're doing it as a little special bonus episode for you all as we get into the back half of the season. So here to help me dig into this year's coaching cycle from all the angles we can think of. It's our friend Connor, or from Sports Illustrated. Connor, how are you? I'm doing great. How are you? I'm doing okay.

You know, we're deep into the season now. We're heading into week 15 and it feels like the right time to do this. Everything is kind of coming into view. We're getting a pretty good idea of what the pool of candidates is going to look like. So we're going to do this talking about the teams first and then we're going to get into the specific candidates. So I want to just begin this conversation by looking at the openings we think they're going to be in this year's coaching cycle. Obviously, we already have three. The Jets, Saints, and Bears have fired their coaches.

They are going to be looking for a new head coach or including their interim coach in the search, however you want to put it. They have a head coach opening currently. The other teams that may have one, I'm curious how. deep that list goes for you. When we get to the start of the cycle, how many openings do you think they're going to be? So I trust, I do like the, whatever you want to call it, like the midnight thing, like a, the doom thing that gets closer to midnight. Yeah, the doomsday clock. So I reach out to like, probably like 12 or 13 people whose job it is to prepare for these kinds of things. And then I do like an average at the end of that time. And so the, the, the, the,

consistent number has been between eight and 10. We're already at four or we're already at three. And so I think that's one of those things where I'm sticking, I'm sticking with eight to 10. There's a couple different ways you can get there. But I think, I think that makes the most sense to me. So that's the number that I had heard as well. Was that anywhere between like seven to 10.

So we already have three. So let's stack this up in terms of likelihood. How would you order the teams after those three in terms of the likelihood there will be an opening? So we have, boy, this is, this is interesting. So we have the Jaguars, I think that's number one, right? I mean, I think that that one's pretty obvious. I would say that I would put like the Raiders probably next, even though I do think that

there's possibly a chance. Now that you have Tom Brady and now that you, you know, you brought him in for a reason, I think you're going to give him a chance to at least put his. thumbprint on the organization. So I would probably put them second with cowboys probably right after that, even though, like, you know, it's just so weird. Like, Mike McCarthy's kind of done a good job. Like, oddly, like, done a good job.

And we're just ready to, like, throw him out after a couple of 12 win seasons. Here's my problem with McCarthy. I'm impressed with the fact that they've continued to play hard for him and they are being competitive in these games. I thought there was absolutely a chance that they just shut it down for the back half of the season. They have not done that. I think he deserves credit for that.

I don't think we can forget how lifeless and hapless the offense looked for the first half of the season when Dak Prescott was there. You are the play-calling head coach of this team with the most expensive quarterback in the league. You can't, while relatively healthy for the first half of the season, be the 20th ranked offense in the league. You cannot do that. So I think we have to keep that in mind as we're thinking about the job that Mike McCarthy did this year and trying to separate it from being.

up on a bad schedule in 2023. Totally fair. And I think he just does a good job of like, you get so frustrated with Mike McCarthy and then it's like the Sour Patch kid. Like there's a little sweet at the bottom there and you're just like, oh, how are we going to do this to this guy again? But yes, I do think Jerry Jones will, because a coaching staff, right, is a good splash move that you have to make that doesn't involve as large of a financial commitment.

And so that's kind of a Jerry Jones special there. How can I get the most news media coverage I possibly? can for the smallest amount of money is the Cowboys calculus at all times. I know, it's like, oh, by the way, you have to keep the rest of the staff that I have on contract. But really, I mean, he, you know, unlike other owners, right, other owners will let you do it all over and over again, or other owners will do it over and over again. And they'll keep paying these guys in perpetuity. Like, there was at one point where I think the Haslams were paying a defensive coordinator twice for two different stops in the same place because they had fired him and hired him so many times.

So other owners do that. Jerry Jones is like, no, everyone's on a one-year contract. I'm not paying anyone to this point. So at least the books look good as accounting is straight. Well, that's the other thing worth note here is that they don't even have to fire Mike McCarthy. His contract is up at the end of the year. So that makes it easier for everybody. So we have Jags, Cowboys, Raiders.

I think those are the next three cleanest. And I think to get from those six to eight to ten, that's where you have to use some imagination a little bit. So I'm curious who the next couple teams on that list are for you. And I think this is probably where you see some of our surprises bake in. Like I still think, I really do think that John Mera wants to keep Brian Dable. I really do. And as much as I think that there could be, you know, again, you could always lose it in the final month here. Like, and we have seen Joe Judge do it.

Like there is a playbook. We've seen Ben McAdoo do it. There is a playbook. You can take an owner's good graces and completely stom. on it over the final weeks of the season. But, I mean, they had that comeback against the Saints, and I know it seems meaningless to everybody else in the world. But the fact that they almost won that game, if they had a field goal kicker, if they had a

field goal blocking unit, they probably would have at least gone to overtime. I think that matters to the owner. I do. No matter how many planes you fly over the stadium, which people are doing, which is a strange thing. And then I have the Browns, I think it's just, it's going to have to be something that we talk about. Like, they're going to get through the end of this season, and they're going to have to talk about a lot of stuff. And I do think that, at least in some

way, shape, or form, the Browns are going to hold things up because Kevin Stefansky is a really good head coach, right? But, and Kevin Stifansky could have a market. And Mike Vrable is on the staff. And Mike Vrable has worked with Deshaun Watson and Mike Vrable's from Ohio. And people from Ohio for some reason love to remain in the state of Ohio, right? And so you have all these little things that are kind of coming into play here. And I do think that like Cleveland is one that I just keep getting pointed to is like, hey, you have to pay attention to that because, you know, it might not be a firing, but it could be a change, you know, and it could be a trade. It could be something, right? And I really do think we need to put the Browns on our radar because it's a significant,

and, you know, they have to sort through a lot of stuff this offseason, a lot of stuff. I'm so fascinated by that entire situation. What decision do you make? Who do you commit to among your current core of important pieces, the quarterback, the general manager, the head coach? Where does the blame fall for the way the last couple seasons has gone? And if your ownership, which change do you think you can sell the easiest and which change do you think actually sends a message to your fan base that we care about how bad the last

couple seasons have gone. I don't know where they land. I think the answer is you kick the quarterback to the curb however that looks, even if he's on the roster, whatever. I know you still have to pay him. But I think if I'm the Browns and I'm the Hasams right now, I'm probably riding with the head coach and general manager who I think in large part have done good things in those roles with one catastrophic mistake that has weighed this team down over the last three years. with one catastrophic mistake that neither of them necessarily made. You know, I think someone came into the facility one day and was like, boy, do I have an idea for you guys? You know, but in that way, yes, but I try to take myself out of the headspace of the sane person because these are not regular people who are making these calls, right?

You can say that again. Yes. And so I think it's one of these deals where, you know, if you're Jimmy Haslam, you're saying, I could possibly salvage the Deshaun thing and save this and bring them back if I got Mike Vrable and then I could get the picks back by trading some of the picks back by trading Kevin Stofansky. I don't, you know, in this world, does it work out that way? I don't know.

And if you're Haslam, the one thing you don't really have to worry about if this is a concern is Kevin Stifansky would start getting offset money instantly. The second that he was fired, right? So, I mean, it's not like one of those things where it's a deep financial commitment. You could very easily. Now, if you're the owner that gets the bullet point like AI, Microsoft summary of everything, and when you walk in the door, like, oh, people from Ohio like Mike Vrable, like that's, you know, that's one of those things where you're an owner and you're walking through

the door and you're like, okay, let's do it, you know? And so that's why I'm just like, this thing could be a powder keg. And it could not, it might not be, right? He might just be like, oh, my God, Kevin's the best coach that I've ever hired. Like, why am I going to get rid of them? But, like, this thing has gotten so out of control strange already. And I don't know if you're just going to ask a 45 or what is it, 50. How much per year does Deshaun Watson make?

50 something. Yeah, you're not going to ask him to stay home. Yeah. So I don't know. You know, that's a, but anyway, that's my, my microscope is over that. Any other surprises that are worth mentioning here that you wouldn't be shocked necessarily if on Black Monday we got. got some weird news.

I think the buck's got to blow us out of the water here. I do. And I don't think there's a difference between I think they do and I think that it's right. I think that Todd Poles has been awesome. He's hired two slam dunk offensive coordinators in the last two years, both of whom might end up becoming head coaches after one year stints with Baker Mayfield. That shows to me an understanding of how you want to run things. That team is veteran heavy.

And unless you're bringing in a heavy hitter, I think you're going to have a hard time. Or if you're going to blow it up, you're going to blow it up. But I think Todd's done a great job. But you know, you also can't ignore the fact that like, you know, it's like, okay, nine and eight, 10 and seven, you know, in that area. Do they think that there's something bigger that they can go out there and get? I don't know.

Have you heard anything about the idea of him potentially retiring? I mean, it would not surprise me. I mean, you know, again, you had your Super Bowl ring. You were the highest paid coordinator at one point. this job is an absolute grind. You went through it with the jets, you know, and you are on the other side. You know, you've made it with your health relatively intact. It does make sense.

But, I mean, the Bucks have done this before, right? I mean, Bruce Ariens had some sort of a succession plan, whether that was forced on him or not, you know, that they have kind of tried to keep this thing going and turn it around and turn it over and make it look like they have long-term plans. And so, you know, that would not surprise me either. But I do think that that's one of those teams that's just like, God, got to keep that. You got to circle out on your radar. The Todd polls to Liam Cohen kind of passing of the torch here based on the way that this season has gone, the way the offense has played.

Even if there's always uncertainty and we'll dig into all of this when we talk about coordinators that have never done this job before. Based on just the success as a coordinator and how this season has unfolded, I think you could absolutely sell that. The funny part is they would have done that twice in the last like 10 years because they did that with Dirk Cutter. they're really the last team to have done that where oh hey the offense is playing well with this quarterback why don't we just give the team to the offensive coordinator so they actually do have a history of that which is pretty funny they do and i think what's interesting too is you know obviously removing todd from the situation uh changes the calculus but you have guys um like larry foot on the staff who former player um some people who have talked to him uh talk to me about him

have thought like, you know, in the right situation, you have sort of a Dan Campbell thing for him or a D'emico Ryan's kind of thing for him, right? And so if he gets a bigger voice, I mean, Casey Rogers, those guys have been there for a long time. They're really good coaches. If you're Liam Cohen and you got bumped up, the bottom doesn't collapse out from underneath you as long as you handle it the right way, you know? So let's, I want to do something with all the openings that we think are going to be there. So let's start with these six that are kind of in a slightly different tier than the other maybe firings we could see over the next few weeks. And with these six openings, I want to ask you a very simple but loaded question. We're going to do good, we're going to do

good job or bad job with these six openings. So let's start with the ones we already have. The New York Jets head coaching opening. Good job or bad job. Bad job. Bad job. Turn and run. Don't, don't take this job. Don't do it. What is the worst part about it? Like, what do you think is the biggest impediment to success if you were the head coach of the New York Jets? Well, as I find myself daily checking Trump ambassador appointments, Woody Johnson is still not being sent overseas in exile. So yeah, that's bad. You know, I think a lot of the reporting on this situation has been dead on. I mean, the involvement this year has been borderline frightening. And, you know, I mean, I get it. You're a billionaire and you don't like to be embarrassed and whatever. You feel like this was your magnumopis. You don't want other people to embarrass you. But if you embarrass your self. That's right. Correct. Yes. Let's make a very, yeah, very, very fine point. Yeah. And so I think that that seeing what is possible from him in an outlier scenario like that terrifies me because how would you like to walk to work? I mean, Robert Saul was like working out like and then,

you know, in that morning, you know? And then all of a sudden he just comes in and he's like, nah, you're not the head coach anymore. You know, this is like, and then you're like, escorted by security. Like that you, you just can't, can't work there. It's not, it's not sane.

I've seen, I mean, that was my first job in the NFL covering that. I've seen it too many times. And while he's relatively patient, you do have to give him that.

Like, he does give these guys, at least a couple of years. Um, it never ends well, right? Because, uh, he's too influenced by the market.

Um, the market's too volatile. Um, and, and it's sort of this like death cycle, you know? Now you're hopefully, you're likely bringing in a new GM.

you are bringing in a new GM. So there's going to be a new regime, a new tenure in terms of the direction of the team. There's a lot of unanswered questions about what the next couple of years the New York Jets are going to look like. So I agree with you on that one. New Orleans Saints.

Good job, bad job to be the head coach of the Saints. It's a pretty bad job, right? It's some, like, are you going to be the coach when they decide that they have to start paying all the bills finally, you know, and that's not going to be fun, you know? Or are they just going to be like, yeah, you can extend Alvin Cameras six more time. when you're here, it doesn't matter, you know, like money, money's not an object. I think I've heard

the end of the, you know, like this offseason, for example, there were a couple of coaches that I was talking to that were like, you know, Derek Carr, like, you know, I can't people make that work, you know, like, what do you think? And I was just like, oh, and I think we've reached the end of that, like, you know, like we know exactly, you could have it best, the 14th best offense for several weeks in the NFL. And then that's kind of where the train ends here. This team is low on stars. It's low on foundational pieces. And it's very mom and pop. And so you kind of have to fit in or get cut out. And I think that and the GM having kind of a lifetime appointment is not anything that I think I'd like to sign up for. That's my biggest

question about this team is what this offseason looks like. And do they kind of take a left turn with the way they approach the roster? If Mickey Loomis remains the GM, which it seems like he's probably going to based on everything that they've said or the messaging that they've tried to put out there over the last few weeks, do they just kind of keep rolling in the same way they've always kept rolling? If that's the case, that I think it's a worse job than them being willing to say, let's take

our medicine and let's just try to take this in a slightly new direction with some slightly new ideas. Yeah, the only problem is, again, I mean, I did a big story on this with Hugh Jackson and the cash for I'm doing air quotes for legal

reasons, cash for losses situation. you when you're going through a tear down, you have to have so many assurances that you will be able to see this through to the other side. That's a good point. And guess how many people see it through to the other side? None. Nobody.

Like, nobody gets to, except for Dan Campbell and he did it so fast that they didn't realize that there was a tear down happening, you know? That is a very good point. And I think we should separate what is potentially in the best interest of the organization. in its long-term health? For sure. And what is it the best interest of a head coach maintaining his job? And I think further kicking the can down the road and trying to squeeze nine to ten wins out

of every single season, if you're a head coach candidate, that actually might be a better way to approach the next three years, even if it's a worst way to approach the next three years if you're the New Orleans Saints. Yeah, it's like a twisted, yeah, it's like a twisted bar hookup. But like your buddy's just, you know, he's just like, that's the person, you know. whatever. You're like, okay, man, that seems to be just about you. So anyway, you know. Chicago Bears, good job, bad job. Good job. I think. I think it could be a good job. I say that with a little hesitation. I don't make too much. Like, it was stupid firing Matt Eber Fluse after a press conference. But for the people who are like grandstanding on it and they're like, how could you possibly do this? It's like, I don't know, man. Like they're trying to figure it out, you know, and I think they're probably trying to get a handle on. how impossible it would be to play with this guy over the last month.

And, you know, it turns out pretty impossible, you know. So you had to make the move. But does that, to me, signal some glaring dysfunction within the organization? I don't know. You know, I think Ryan Poles has done a pretty good job. You need to fix that offensive line this offseason. And Caleb Williams has shown me that he's willing and actually desirable to get the ball out in two and a half seconds. Like, if I'm an offensive guy, it's like, yeah, let's go.

I can go fix this. You know, why not? I think that the offensive line conversation has been really interesting to me over the season in general, but especially over the last week or so. The offensive line personnel, it doesn't get better or worse each week. There are plenty of games where they look okay. And I think that we have so many examples recently, and I keep coming back to this one because I think it's the best example. The 2002 Indianapolis Colts offensive line truly looked like the worst offensive line in the NFL when Matt Ryan was back.

there. You bring in a new coaching staff, and there's development from young guys. You know, Bernard Raymond is no longer a rookie, et cetera. Will Fries goes from being almost unplayable at regard to being an actually very good offensive lineman, which was kind of crazy. But you can have demonstrably different results when you have different offensive infrastructure and a different offensive system in place. And I think that there is a chance Ryan Poles walked into this offseason and said, or walked into this season and said, listen, do we have the best offensive line in the league, no. Do we have a workable group of five pieces based on how we've built this? Yes. And I think there is a chance that with minor tweaks and upgrades and a new offensive system in place there,

you get drastically different results from the offensive line. So I know that the talent, based on the product they put on the field, it looks like it has a ton of holes in it. I think there's a chance that with different people in charge, the talent on the roster looks slightly different. There is a chance I have egg on my face saying that and I'm overrating what they've built there, but I at least am open to the possibility. I agree with you because, and it's especially difficult when, you know, you think you're building for one thing. I mean, a lot of these teams kind of got in on, you know, the third or fourth floor on a sort of Shanahan style offense. I mean, Getsy was from that tree. And so you're looking for very specific. Yeah. And so, you know,

you're looking for very specific traits. And then when that doesn't work and maybe you want to run you know something slightly different the packers are really the only team that i've seen dramatically change the way that they're running and be able to move those pieces instantly to make it work and surprise their offensive coordinator as an offensive line coach so i mean you know i do think that there is a nuance to that for sure it's good to the last few here running through them pretty quickly jacks good job bad job um i think um i think that you need the general manager not to be there um but otherwise you know i remember talking to people when we were talking about like the Gus Bradley, Dave Caldwell era, you know,

basically anything that wasn't the Urban Meyer era, you know, this ownership group is pretty patient. They like the idea of putting down roots there, building the new stadium. Like the London thing is what it is. But I mean, Trevor Lawrence might be more of a problem than we're ready to admit sometimes. And maybe he's just not the superstar quarterback that we've all just instantly ascribed him to be. But there's so much, there's so much room left to get him to a ceiling. And if you're a forward-thinking offensive guy, you could do that in, you know, a short off-season. You could install something. I feel like that would really get him out coming out electric next year. The GM is the biggest question. If you're willing to move on from the GM and you're

willing to have a new regime there, GM and head coach, I think that there's going to be a lot of teams that want to be the next version of the Lions. But the pathway to, hey, we really don't have that many barriers here to success if we hire the right people. I think that you can frame the Jags job for both the GM and the head coach as that sort of opportunity. You could. And I mean, we talk about like pieces. Like, you know, there are games when Devin Lloyd will blitz from the middle linebacker spot. And I'm like, holy smokes, who's that, you know, and you kind of go back and you watch it four times. Or Tron Walker's had some good games, you know. And, you know, this is, you know, you could have a good team.

Like I, I've said a couple of times, like, I feel like they're, like, one space eating defensive tackle away from being like an eight win, nine win team this year, you know? And so, I don't know, like, you know, go out and do it. Go out and do it next year. I think good job. Cowboys, bad job, good job. It's a good job. You have to put up a lot of crap, but it's a good job.

Jerry Jones doesn't fight, like, he just doesn't fire guys anymore. I mean, you're at least getting something close to the life. of your contract. Jason Garrett was pushing up against that ceiling for years and was able to survive. Mike McCarthy came out in his opening press conference and said he was kind of lying about all the studying that he did in the offseason, you know, and he got to stay for five years, you know. So I do think, you know, he'll meddle, but like, you know, if you put Jerry Jones's meddling up against Woody Johnson's, I would take Jerry Jones's meddling in a heartbeat. Yeah, and I think having the quarterback, and no matter what you think of Dak Prescott,

That Krescott is a good NFL quarterback. It's good. It's good. It's good. It's good. And a top five receiver, let's say. And one of the three most impactful defensive players in the league, that's a good situation combined with the patience.

To me, the biggest question about the Cowboys, and we alluded to this a little bit earlier, is the willingness to spend money? Are you going to try to jump through some loopholes and work around those Dak Prescott and Cidlam contracts and try to push your chips in and actually build a winning team over the next few years? That to me is the most important question about the Cowboys. If the answer to that is yes, and they are willing to spend a little bit more than they have over the last couple years, then it goes from a decent job, in my opinion, to a very good job.

And, you know, we're talking about a lion's blueprint all the time here. But if you look at the lines, I mean, yes, I mean, elite offensive line. And then, you know, pieces that Dan Campbell had, you know, Kaleef Raymond, Alex Anzalone, guys like that who were more or less available for everybody, right? and if you're a coach and you're allowed to do that, and then you combine it with someone like Will McLeigh, who's a really good personnel guy, like you're going to hit on some draft picks, you know?

I really do, I agree. I mean, I think this is a good job. Raiders, good job, bad job. Bad job. You know, I just think now there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen. And even if Tom Brady is the primary cook in the kitchen, he's seeing it from a different way than he's ever seen it before. And I think he's still very, like if you listen to him talk,

still very hard and fast in the way that he's done things is the way that things need to be done. And so if I'm a new coach and I walk in there, it's just like, ooh, I don't know about that. And you know, you're going to be picking a quarterback with him possibly in the building. You're going to be, you know, trying to design an offense with him around. And so I don't know. I think that's one of those that scares me a little bit. Do you think Tulasko keeps that job? I think he could.

But my understanding there is that all of those contracts are pretty easy. to get out of if they decide that they're blown away by something. What's the last time we saw it had GM get fired after one year? I can't remember whatever happening. Did John, did John Idzik make it two seasons with the Jets? I think so. He traded Derell Revis and then,

remember they made 12 draft picks and then none of them stayed on the roster. And then I think 2013, 2014. I think he got a second year. So that would be the first time I got, can remember that, but I would not be shocked if they just decided to entirely clean house after one year. Considering the reasons that they landed on that pairing in general were hilarious and the process was unbelievably bad, I don't actually think it's a bad thing that they would fire both of those guys after one year, but I don't think I've ever seen it before. It kind of speaks to the situation

going out of that building. The Raiders are always surprising us. All right, before we get to the actual pool of candidates here, let's take a break. Let's get to the guys that we probably consider the favorites in this coaching cycle. And when we were first going to do this a few weeks ago, there were three names that had been mentioned to me as the guys that will probably get a job during this cycle if they want a job. And those three names were Bill Belichick, Ben Johnson, and Aaron Glenn. Now, it seems like the Bill Belichick part of that is not nearly as likely as it seemed

maybe a month ago. So let's start with that. How real do we think this Bill Belichick with North Carolina pieces? And if it doesn't happen with North Carolina, how realistic do we think it is that Bill Belichick gets an NFL head coaching job this cycle? So I think this is sort of an unbelievable gambit by Belichick who I've always been 50-50 on. I was 50-50 last year and the people that I trusted in that regard coming into this year were like, I still think that there's a chance that there's just no market for him.

He's very specific, you know. And I think that too. But I don't disagree with that thinking. I actually understand how teams individually are landing in that place, and I even understood it last cycle, but it is still crazy to me that there isn't at least one team that's willing to say, fuck it, he's Bill Belichick, we are going to do this. And because right now, yes, I get how if there are six openings,

five teams get to a place at the end where they're like, eh, we're not willing to do everything it's going to take to do this. We're worried about giving him the power that he wants. We're worried about the offensive staff he's going to build. We're worried about him just getting the band back together. because we saw that band play live the last time they toured and it was not enjoyable. I get that. But the fact that there isn't one team that's willing to step outside of that and say,

I'm willing to do this for the media attention. I'm willing to do this for the history. All of that. That part is a little bit surprising to me. So I dug in deep on the North Carolina thing and I came out with three scenarios that I think are pretty, pretty accurate to this point. Okay. scenario one in North Carolina is you have a bunch of Buddy Garrity type booster folks who have a lot of money and they think that this is like a fun play thing for them to have, right?

They sit at the table and they're just like, you know, Eric Taylor left to go take a job in college. I own a car dealership and I can buy whatever I want and I'm going to buy Bill Belichick because that's fun for me. That is very, and those people have a very loud seat at the table. Okay. So that, that is true. Okay. That's scenario one. scenario two is that you can kind of believe a little bit about what is coming from

Camp Belichick, which is that, you know, he's just sick of the NFL grind. You know, he can build a pro program here. He just likes coaching. There's a lot of advantages. You can bring your son from Washington. You can put a staff together and no one's going to, you know, say anything. And you can just enjoy the art of coaching. You can create this pipeline program that he's talking about.

the third scenario here is the most intriguing to me, which is that Belichick has wind of the tepid waters, and so this is a way to put teams feet to the fire and to get a commitment right now or to secure something for himself before the bottom falls out. And this is the way that you basically own the fence. You're standing on the fence, and you own both sides of the land. So the more serious this gets, I mean, we're talking about Bill Belichick going on the Let's Go podcast and admitting that he interviewed for a job. Like, this is the same person that built the most covert FBI style organization in the history of football. You know, he wants people to know where this is going. And, you know, the fact that it's, he's had great conversations and he likes the idea. And here's my plan.

So that Jacksonville finally just go, ah, shit, and hang up the phone. call him. You know what I mean? And I think that there's probably like a little bit of a public game of chicken happening here too. So I think that when you combine all of this together, we're probably in the range of truth there somewhere. Even if we take number three off the table, and this is less of a gambit than it is him actually being interested in the college situation, him choosing control over a chance to chase the wind's record is fascinating to me. He's like, I would rather make sure that I can do things the way that I want to do and I don't have to answer to anybody rather than taking

one more run at an NFL job to get that record. It's just surprising to me. Like, there's ego at play in both of those pads and the type of ego that he may be choosing is, I think, pretty telling. It's, it's surprising until you've spent a lot of time around 70-year-olds, you know? And now that my parents are in that window, I'm like, okay, I get it. You know, Like, you know, you just kind of, like, I'm in my seventh decade. I kind of just like the way that I do things and I don't really care anymore. I get it. You know what I mean?

And it could be like as funny as that. Like, it could just be, you know, age. But I just, I do like the idea that that's what I was saying. Like, over the next few weeks, watch what some of these other teams do. Does Billichick try to draw this out at least long enough that he gets some sort of an assurance from one of these teams? But then here's the other thing you have to watch out for. if you're the Jaguars, for example, right? And this is something that you want to do.

Belichick turns down the North Carolina job. Totally hoses them, by the way, because all the other candidates are out for that job. I mean, Matt Campbell's going back to Iowa State. I think the guy from Tulane is going back to Tulane. Like, there's a lot of things that have already happened. You've missed the cycle. The transfer portal started yesterday. So, yikes.

But if Belichick drags you out for that, then I think there is a, you know, the team that ends up hiring him puts themselves in hot water because it's like, did you really go through a diverse hiring process? Did you, or did you call him and say, okay, just give us a couple of minutes? You know, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that question. So I think there's a lot of things that play here. After Bill Belichick, I think the first thing about anybody's mouth with this cycle is going to be Ben Johnson. The question I want to ask you about Ben Johnson, in the eyes of the people who are leading these searches, in the eyes of the coaching search community we'll call it. Is he the number one with a bullet, like pristine candidate that I think a lot of

fan bases are going to make him out to be in this cycle? No, I don't think so. And I think that Ben would be the first person to say that, you know, that he stepped out the first year when he probably could have had the Carolina job because he felt like he didn't know a lot about, you know, not a lot about, but wanted to learn more about, you know, situational football, you know, how you're running things why you call timeouts in certain situations why you do other things like that and then the second one because you know yes i think that he had talked about this at the podium about wanting the right set up wanting the the ownership in place the GM all that kind of stuff but i do think that there was a big part of that of him sitting on that plane on the way home from san francisco and just

having like a feeling like he got shot in the gut and not going to the super bowl and the guy is a competitor first and that can work out really well like kevin o'connor Like you'd look at that and that guy, you know, would accidentally probably tackle an opposing player if you gave him, you know, if the situation was going out of control enough. Ben is that kind of guy, right? And so it can either work out really well or it can work out not well at all, right? And I think there's obviously two sides to that coin. I mean, Ben is, Ben's a unique guy, you know, and Ben's going to need people around him, you know, a little bit like Kyle, right? Kyle Shanahan's personality is not going to charm a room, you know what I mean?

But he surrounds himself with dynamic people who are great people, you know, people persons. You know, right now they have Anthony Lynn and Brian Greasy, like two of the best dudes, you know. He had Robert Sala, great all-time dude, right? You want them in the locker. Demico Rines. Dmito Riance, all-time dude, right? And so if you, ATD, if you are Ben Johnson, you know, if you can get some ATDs, I think you're all right, you know. I think that's going to be the biggest question.

The personality, him at the front of the room, him being the guy that. that sets the culture, the voice, the mood of a building. I mean, he's obviously a fantastic offensive football coach. And those guys play hard, right? They bring a level of physicality to the way that they play offense. How much of that is a building led by Dan Campbell and how much of that is an offense led by Ben Johnson. I don't think there's any way for us to properly understand that.

And I think there is a lot more variance to him as a head coaching candidate than people are going to make it out to be in this cycle. Is there a chance that he's just one of the next guys? 100% absolutely he could be the next guy in that young Wunderkin offensive coach model that just takes his team to relevance immediately. Sean McVeigh, Kyle Shanahan, Kevin O'Connell, or he's the type of guy where the demands of the job, the scope of a job, the managing 200 people part of the job, swallows him whole. I would not be surprised by either one of those. And the fact that both of them are on the table, I think makes him a very, very interesting case. What's weird is, and I don't want to put this on him, you know, because I don't think it's fair to either of the people, really.

But we've been talking about the inevitability of Ben being a great head coach, like we talked about the inevitability of Adam Gase being a great head coach. This is the longest preamble that I can remember that has a corollary there, right? And, you know, Adam ran into a lot of trouble, did turn that Dolphins team around. I thought it did a nice job. But then I think the mistake, and maybe he would even admit this, is walking into an absolute. grease fire in New York, you know, and a bad situation, which, you know, everything comes full circle there. So, but anyway, I, I think that, you know, maybe that's the case. And I know Ben and Adam work together, you know, but it's, it's one of those things that we don't know until,

and coaches tell me this all the time. You don't know until you sit in the chair. Like one day, you're in the chair and everyone starts asking you what you want to do. And it's a weird thing, you know, and how do you handle all that stuff? The Kyle Shanahan comparison, I think, is a very good one. And as somebody who has talked to both of these people but doesn't know them deeply, I think at first glance, you could absolutely make a comparison just between, you know, reserved might not be the right word, but they're not the most dynamic personalities, the two of them. But obviously they are very, very good at what they do in terms of building, constructing, orchestrating, and if you can do that part really well, and you can have the organizational parts of the job done really well,

and you can surround yourself with the right staff, we have seen what type of success a coach like this can have. I have one Ben Johnson anecdote that I just love repeating because it's my favorite thing ever. And I was doing a profile that I didn't run yet because I just don't love it where it's at. But I talked to someone from his family and they said when he was younger, he walked around with a notebook and scribbling in a notebook all the time. And then they kind of looked and they saw what it was. And he was just counting as high as he could possibly go. So pages of a notebook just filled with ascending numbers. and so it was just like one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, and, like, it's just like,

and I mean, he's little kid, little during this, you know, but it's just such like a beautiful mind like thing where you're just like as a pair, you're like, whoa, all right, you know, that's, that's something, you know, that's pretty cool. That's taking Detroit. And let's get to the other guy that I think is going to be at the top of the list for many teams here, and that is Aaron Glenn. So what sort of candidate have you, have people made Aaron Glenn out to be as you've talked to them about his place in this process?

I think Aaron Glenn really improved his candidate. to see this year because of how dramatically he changed the way that the Lions play defense and how well he has taken all these guys under his wing like almost and it's sort of like this weird like Brooklyn take like counterculture take on this where it's like now it's like Ben Johnson's not the good coach it's Aaron Glenn because he's got all the injuries he's got all the young players Ben Johnson's got the great offensive line and the stars and that you know and you know there is some sort of like galaxy brain stuff taking place here I think listen I've done that galaxy brating myself a little bit over the last month or so. I've definitely entertained that idea recently

as I've thought about this group. Yeah, for sure. But I think optically, like, that's what you need as a coach to punch it over the goal line. And, you know, I think that Aaron Glenn has answered all the major questions that you had about him, right, which is that, hey, his defense wasn't great for a while, you know, and he made it great. And it continues to be great, despite the fact that every week they either lose a player via ejection or horrific gruesome injury, and you still end up playing to that caliber. You know, to Ben Johnson's credit, I mean, they had, who was the backup left tackle in last week?

Dan Skipper. Dan Skipper, one of my favorite people. Dan Skipper was playing left tackle last week, and you ended up, you know, one, he allowed one pressure, right? So it's, you know, okay. It works both ways. But I do think Aaron Glenn has kind of answered all the big questions there. My big question about Aaron Glenn, before we get to kind of the guys a little bit further down the list here,

have you heard anything about what his offensive staff would potentially look like? Because with any of these either culture setter CEO types or defensive-minded head coaches, that's the first place my mind goes, is who is going to be the person running your offense? Because we love Dan Campbell, right? Dan Campbell's done a great job. We don't know what Dan Campbell's lions look like without Ben Johnson. And so even if you are somebody that can do a good job at the front of the building, can kind of lead the vision for what everything should feel like, you still need to get the

offensive staff right. So I'm going to ask that question about a few of these candidates that have that sort of resume. So the people that you've talked to, what does that answer look like potentially for Aaron Glenn? It's different for every coach. And I think with Glenn, the issue is, you know, we'll talk about this with Brian Flores in a second. You have not gotten through a situation where you have to figure out, you get the, the leeway to figure out what you want based on what has happened to you in the past. And so I think that we have to understand the process for Glenn as, you know, stuff's going to be

firing everywhere. You're probably going to lose both of your coordinators. Coaches are going to be divvied up quick. And so I don't think, for example, does he get Tanner Engstrand, who's kind of the prize in all this in Detroit? I don't think so. You know, I would be surprised. If I was Tanner, I'd probably want to stay and be the offensive coordinator of the Lions.

Yeah, that would be my guess. Yeah. Right. And so is he going to get one of those like next hot guy up names? Like I don't think so. And so it'll be interesting to see he's been in coaching forever. He's got a lot of relationships, but this isn't one of those situations where, you know, I don't know is the is the answer. But I think this is going to be his either Achilles heel or the thing that he does that knocks it's out of the park, you know. We're going to dig into the second tier of coaching candidates here in a second. But before we do that, we're going to take one more quick break. Let's get to the next tier of guys here. And you can order these however you want. You mentioned Brian Flores. So let's start with Brian Flores. So I want to ask you essentially the one big question that I have, and I think would be

the reasonable question, about each of these guys who are kind of on the second tier among this pool. For Brian Flores, I think I have two. The first is, what is Brian Flores' offensive staff looks like if he gets one of these jobs? Yeah. So I think my understanding is, you know, in talking to some people who know, who know, Brian well is I think what he wants, you know, there's probably a clearer vision this time. And I think last time there was definitely that almost comically long cycle of offensive coordinators.

There was him jumping over the fence and getting involved, not getting involved, getting involved. They're like four offensive wine coaches in a year. Right. And I think what he, because if you look at this Minnesota defense, right, why is the Vikings defense the best defense in the NFL? The reason that the Vikings defense is the best in the NFL is they spend a lot of time together. They're all really close. And it's a player-led defense, right? So the players make a lot of those calls on the field based on the relationship that they

developed with Brian in the coaching stuff, right? So what you learn through that scenario is you will, you know, you can build only through that way. Cohesion, you know, love, doing things, going out to dinner, all that kind of stuff. But as a defensive coordinator, that means that your offensive coordinator, has to be doing the same thing and has to be an absolute head coach on offense and, you know, has to be able to run a room. And so for Flores, I think you probably narrow the candidate pool down to maybe guys who have been head coaches before, guys who have a lot of experience

calling offenses, successful offenses. And so in that way, like, you know, you can set up your zip recruiter profile to just reject the young hot candidate because you don't know if he's going to be able to do that, right? And so you really need to give yourself the, chance to do what you do best while also, you know, setting the offense up for success. What, who are, what does that pool look like? Who is an example that fits that archetype? It's hard, right? I mean, you know, you have, I mean, you know, if the Bucks thing blew up, right? And, you know, you know, someone like that where, you know, Liam Cohen, if Todd Munkin doesn't come back in Baltimore, doesn't get a head coaching job, is that a guy who just, you know,

you can set him off to the side and you can give him a chance? But this is going to come down to, you know, Brian Flores is the relationships. You know, do I think he takes someone like Josh McCown? No. You know, do I think he takes someone like West Phillips? No, I don't think so. You know, it doesn't seem like that. It's like, this is going to be an established name.

This is going to be someone that we've heard of before. This is going to be someone who has had, you know, successful offenses in the past. And, you know, that's where I think you're, you have to start, you know. The next question I would ask Flores, and I would ask this of all the guys who would be potential retreads in this cycle. What did you learn from this? first stop. I think that may be, if you're interviewing a retread candidate, I'm fascinated in what the answer would be. Because I think a lot of these guys that get the job again, you can fall into two buckets. You can be somebody who is going to pin all of your failing to

the previous stop on other things. Yet, you know, the GM just, we never got it right. We never had the right players. The owner screwed me. And on the other side of it, I think that you can have moments of real self-reflection. Dan Quinn probably being the best example of that, where After Dan Quinn lost that job in Atlanta, I think he tried to turn over every rock to figure out what went wrong here and what could I potentially do differently the second time around. And so with all of these guys that have had these opportunities in the past, Frable, Flores, Cliff Kingsbury, what actually went wrong in the first time and how is this going to be different? That would be the first question I would ask in any interview with any of these guys.

No doubt. And I think that what's interesting about Flores, right, it's two prong. You have to go back and also, you know, if you're going to say what, if you're going to ask him what went wrong, you also have to ask him how he won six games or five games at first year when the owner was actively trying to tank. And like you actually had the worst roster in sports, right? And so there was a time where over average, he was getting more out of a locker room than any coach in the NFL. Now, obviously, I mean, there are some questions about how you handled the quarterback position,

how you handle the coaching staff. But I don't think you can remove behavior from, you know, I mean, the allegations in that Miami thing are bonkers that there was a yacht and like here's $100,000 every time you lose. Like this is, you know, this is, if any, if there's truth to that, like that's insanity, right? And so you can't remove behavior from circumstance in that scenario. So, but what I would say is this, to go back to my point about his defense, you don't build a defense like that. if you have not learned something about cohesion, about getting guys together, about, you know, trusting, putting your trust and you're a Belichick guy where you think you have all the answers, but Belichick guys are confident in what they are, right? And, you know, but you're giving a lot of

that away to the players to empower them. And I feel like that's probably your best example of resume work here. And I'll just say this too. One thing that I've been kind of super into about Flores and a couple of coaches in this cycle in particular is, have you spent a large or at least statistically significant period of time on the other side of the ball? Because I'm starting to realize that that is a fatal, fatal flaw in defensive coordinators and offensive coordinators who rise and get head coaching jobs unless you have spent significant time on the other side of the ball, understanding how it works, you're dead in the water. And learning about some of Flores' years with Bill O'Brien very early on with the Patriots and how, you know, he's able to

short-circuit defenses based on knowledge of offense. I mean, that's a huge thing for me. It's a huge thing for me. And he's one of the guys that has it. I think that makes a ton of sense. For me, I'm curious about what his exposure to Tomlin and O'Connell has done for him just in terms of how he wants to structure a building, lead a building, leadership tone, things like that. Because like you said, he's one of those guys. But New England guy, all he'd ever seen in the NFL was New England. That was the culture. That was the way that things operated. And for him to go to both Tomlin and O'Connell over the last couple of years and just be a part of very different organizations in the way that they operate and the way that their head

coaches operate, I don't think he has to change everything about who he is. But I'm curious what little tricks and what little nuggets he's picked up in both of those stops that potentially set him up for success if he is to get another one of these jobs. Yeah, talk to Tomlin about Brian Flores. And he said what struck him was, you know, he didn't know Brian at all. And he just hired him, you know. And he's like, Brian came in and, you know, it wasn't one of the, you know, there was no attitude. There was, you know, this almost immediate ability to fit into the flow of what we were doing. And, you know, as the conversation wound out at the end, he basically, you know, I mean, the quotes in the coaches list is, you know, I thought last year Rahim Morris was the best head coaching in the world without a head coaching job.

and I think that the same is true of Brian Flores. So, I mean, you know, Mike Tomlin's not a bad name to have on your resume for teams to call and ask them about you. Next one who, you have similar kind of bill, would be a retread head coach, but I think he's going to be his name mentioned in this cycle. Mike Vrable. My biggest question for Mike Vrable, and this, I think, is even more important than the Brian Flores part because this is the reason it went wrong in Tennessee is that he failed to replace Arthur Smith at any point and the offense struggled as a result. If you're Mike Vrable and I'm interviewing for a head coaching job, what is your offense? staff look like and why. That is my number one question that I would ask him. Yeah. I think that there's some interesting candidates. Like, you know, it's funny,

like Mike Vrable, uh, since he caught a tight end, a touchdown pass as a tight end, does sort of fancy himself as like a tight end guy. Um, but the, um, the Brown's tight end coach, Tommy Reese is like one of my favorite like under the radar offensive candidates. Because if you look at, um, if you look at the history of Tommy Reese, like he had at Notre Dame, he had, and I grew up a Notre Dame fan, so watched a lot of these guys. You know, but if you grow, you have Ian Book. He's your quarterback, right? Ian Book is now like the second best quarterback in Notre Dame history.

He was drafted in the fourth round of the NFL draft. Ian Book, like, you know, this is not, you know, this is not the age where you're getting Brady Quinn and Joe Montana to cycle through here. I mean, Tommy Reese did a lot with some very mid-level quarterbacking talent there. There was a couple other guys in that. you know, in that window of time. But even Jalen Milrow, like, if you look at what he did with him at Alabama, I mean, you know, I don't, I would argue that he hasn't really developed much beyond that.

I mean, there wasn't any second gear that anyone was promising us here. And we still don't really view him as a first round pick. So I don't know. I think Tommy's one of those guys that by proximity has, you know, bumped up against Rabel a lot in Cleveland. But I think that's like kind of a, you know, I think Tommy Reese is going to be calling plays in the NFL. And so that's just an example of, I think if Vrable were to maybe take some guys or if he had access to guys, like I do think that would be an interesting pairing there.

Yeah, my issue with him is not even just that they struggle to figure out who the succession plan and what it should look like after Arthur Smith. It's where he was looking for those guys. It was just all guys that he had worked with previously. And that to me is worrisome at times. When your circle is that small and you struggle to find a solution. So I'm just curious where he's even going to be looking for those people. And talking to folks that know him over the last week, because I was curious about this, I didn't get any really solid answers

about where he's going to potentially be looking. I think that he's open to the options. So where he ultimately lands if he gets one of these jobs, I think is going to be fascinating. It's just hard, right? And it's a hard job to sign up for if you're an offensive coordinator, right? You know, you have to, you are, you're calling plays for Belichick, essentially, right?

Like, it needs to look this way, right? And so, you know, you're more color. in the lines instead of starting with a blank sheet of paper. So it's a tough ask for some people, you know? Probably at the top of the list of offensive coaches or near the top of the list, just based on what he's done this year. What have you heard about Liam Cohen and just in turn, and his candidacy as part of this group heading into the cycle? So I heard, you know, Liam is kind of, you know, the middle of that second tier. But if there is a theme to this season, like let's say we get to eight, right? We have two or three names that are obviously,

obviously off the board, another probably sensible hire, those bottom four are going to be absolute wild cards, right? And, you know, you can go as far down as, you know, Drew Petsing, Liam Cohen, you know, Cliff Kingsbury, all these guys, right? Like, you have a lot of offensive coaches who have done a good job this year and you're going to be taking a massive swing on someone who, you know, you're probably not 100% sure can, can handle it. And Liam's one of those guys that you kind of hear both sides on. You get the men. But then, you know, I talked to Mark Whipple recently who, you know, revered in coaching circles,

had Liam as a quarterback and promoted him as a coach, like right through the system, has had a lot of other of the young kind of hot offensive guys. And so I think Liam's going to have good relationships. He's going to be able to build a good offensive staff. and he's built upon what Dave Canales had there in Tampa. And the way that he's utilized personnel, the way that he's gotten the most out of some of these fourth, fifth round draft picks has been really impressive. So, I mean, to me, it's worth a shot, right?

You're going to get a glowing recommendation from Sean McVeigh. And, you know, there's worse things to come into a cycle with, you know. I appreciate just based on things that I had heard this offseason, how much he cared about getting this opportunity right? and the work that went into how they built that offense in Tampa. But this is going to be the question with anybody that has this sort of resume and this sort of background. This is typically the place that we have looked for head coaching candidates over the last five or six years, who is the hot offensive coordinator that comes from a particular background.

There is very little evidence to say that he is ready for the bigger parts of this job and the scale and scope of this job. So if you hire somebody like this, you're absolutely. going to be taking a risk, but sometimes it's a risk you have to take if you're looking for a high upside option. Yeah. No, I agree. I mean, no one, again, I mean, you know, it feels like a broken record, but even the coaches don't know this. Like you, you don't know how you're going to behave. And here's the other thing, too. Brian Dable was a coach of the year two years ago, because, largely because, like, was it a two-point conversion or a play at the goal line? Like, Sequan Barclay was stopped three yards in the backfield and then back spun into the end

zone, right? And that changes the entire specter of that season, right? And so you need some of that, too. Like, if Liam Cohn comes in and they win their first game on it, you know, it was a bad throw and it was a tip pick and then the guy, offensive guy catches it and carries it 40 yards for a touchdown, you're at a different spot than you were. You know, if you lose that game and you're perceived differently and people look at you differently. And so, there's so much of that that forms an underpinning of what actually makes a successful head coach. So that's six. If we do Ben Johnson, Aaron Glyne, Liam Cohen, Mike Vrable, Brian Flores, Cliff Kingsbury. And we said there are six likely openings with two, three others that could come open.

So who do you think are the other names that we have to mention as kind of the next-ish tier among these potential guys? So, I mean, I think Kellan Moore is probably working his way into the equation. And I think the reason is that he's interviewed really well at stops before. and it's in that sweet spot where you probably haven't interviewed too much. You know, if you finish the season with Sequin Barclay on MVP candidate pace and, you know, whatever, AJ Brown's going to complain about not getting the ball no matter where he is, you know, but I think that, you know, this could be a time for Kellan Moore, former quarterback, especially if, again, owners think in trends, right?

So former NFL quarterback, just like Kevin O'Connell, you know, and, you know, there's like these corollaries that they can draw in their minds that make, make it make sense. So I think this could be a year for for Kellyn Moore to get back into the conversation. I think he's had a nice season overall. If you're looking for some other names, you know, Todd Monkin is interesting to me. You know, I think there are probably some jobs who are that are perfectly suited for Todd Monkin. And then there are some jobs that, you know, are going to be sort of non-starters for him. But, you know, there is, you know, Todd I put out in one island, but then you have, again, Drew Petzing over in Arizona, Dan pitcher in Cincinnati. I mean,

all that offense does is score points. People have loved Dan for years. And, you know, we're watching, you know, waiting for him to take over for Brian Callahan. You know, and then you have Matt Nagy in Kansas City, who I know this, I'm probably, you know, making the hair stand up on the back of your neck. But there are some people who are interested. and what he could do with the second opportunity. And this offense, no, is not lighting the world on fire. But I think if you look at the nuance of what's happening in Kansas City, like there is still some cool stuff going on.

And could he have learned his lesson? Or is he sitting around waiting to take over for Andy Reed, which is also a possibility, too. Todd Monkin is such an interesting one to me because he just doesn't really fit into any neat bucket that we typically put these coaches into. And that's why I think that there's a harder path to him getting one of these jobs. And also, Todd Munkin has a new. interesting personality, right? Like, Todd Mocken's willing to let it rip a little bit in ways that guys in those positions typically aren't.

So if you're an owner and you're looking at Todd Munkin as a candidate, what are the two, what are like the things that you're weighing as part of that decision? I mean, there's a lot. Like, you know, not only the obvious, like, who are you bringing with you, but like, what players would, like, you know, free agency starts at midnight and we start dialing the phone? What players are like, yeah, I'm coming over to play for. I'm leaving my team to go play for Todd Munkin.

You know, how many of those guys do you have in your cell phone? That would be the most critical piece of the puzzle. Now, someone sent me, you know, and I thought this was interesting. Like he was at the Georgia game over the weekend, and there were players that were flying over to him, giving him hugs on the sideline. They're guys that absolutely do love him. And I think we need to take into account, too, that Lamar is not necessarily the best litmus test for, like, how much does your quarterback love you?

I think Lamar is a very private person and doesn't trust anybody, right? And I don't blame him based on the way that he came through the NFL and to the position that he's in. He shouldn't trust anyone. So that's the complicated thing, right, with Todd. Is it like is he a salty old dog or is he Bruce Ariens? You know, could he turn into Bruce Ariens, right? Where that saltiness, right? I mean, does the saltiness become part of the charm?

You know what I mean? And then does that charm then end up? becoming a thing because in terms of pure look at things and being able to draw them up, there's not many guys that are better than him in this, you know, that can draw up an offense better than Todd Monkin in this, in this grouping right now. It's a great, great comparison. And one I had not made before. But if you're looking for a model for what the Todd Monkin head coaching tenure could look like, they're about the same age, right? Todd Monkin's 58. I think Bruce was about that age when he got his job. He kind of stumbled into that job after, you know, a more

circuitous route through the NFL, so I actually really like that. A couple more names I wanted to ask you about just very quickly. What do I think about Joe Brady? I like Joe Brady. Joe Brady did a really good job. You know, he coming from the Joe Burrow, LSU era, you know, I thought, because that was a weird time, right, where I thought that he may have went right from calling offense at LSU for Joe Burrow to becoming a head coach, because Cliff Kingsbury had basically done a version

of the same thing and there was such desperation for play callers at that moment. I think he picked a bad first spot in the NFL, which is Carolina, right? And that's your sort of like your flaw, right? You went with Matt Ruhle and Carolina and you picked a bad spot. Buffalo is the perfect place for him to rebuild. And the fact that he's interviewed well in the past, Sean Peyton guy at his roots, you know, and with Peyton doing well in Denver, I think he's going to get a lot of push. I also think that we should not ignore that a lot of Detroit's success is built on a

Orleans blueprint. And the fact that the lions are succeeding in the way that they are with a lot of guys who came from New Orleans and the Broncos are having the success that they are, I wouldn't ignore that as a signal if I were an owner. Because we haven't had a lot of guys picked off that tree before. And the fact that Sean Peyton had to almost leave Denver for to start happening or leave New Orleans for to start happening is actually very funny. But I would pay a little bit of attention to that if I was a person trying to make

this decision. I agree. I mean, again, this is, there are different trees are hot at different times. and I do think that the connection to Sean is a valuable one to have right now. And Joe certainly has that for sure. A couple defensive guys that I think we should absolutely mention as part of this conversation. Three names that I would throw out. Vance Joseph, Anthony Weaver, Jesse Minter.

Vance Joseph, simply because of the success that Bronco's defense has been having, you can't ignore that. Anthony Weaver, you know, he had a lot of heat in the last cycle. Is somebody who wasn't even a coordinator who was interviewing for head coaching jobs? Just as somebody who has presence, you know, he's just one of the, if we're chasing Dan Campbell types, It seems like he's somebody that you could make an argument for. And then the last one, just because that defense is overperformed to a ridiculous extent,

is Jesse Minter. Like those are probably the three defensive coordinator candidates that I would throw out in this cycle that could potentially get interest. You say that's fair? I think it's fair. I would add Jeff Halfley in if only because Jeff Halfley. I mean, again, the light just came on for that Packers defense when he got there. I think he's done a great job.

They've done interesting stuff all year. I've been impressed with him at every single stage, the entire season, even if it's been inconsistent and they haven't necessarily gotten the most out of some of that talent. I wouldn't say that's on him. Yeah. I would say that with Jeff, like I talked to the AD over at Boston College and he said, you know, hey, I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but if you're coming here, you have to develop. Like we're not getting, you know, we're not crushing it in the transfer portal, you know, and Boston College does have like, oddly this very ingrained relationship with the NFL like Tom Coughlin was there. A lot of, um, uh, uh, isiero Evereux staff from,

Carolina now was in Boston College. Bill O'Brien is in Boston College now. And so I do think that that program does carry some weight. And I think that if a team is starting over, you don't have a ton of resources and you're looking at building something. I mean, Halfley really did do a nice job at Boston College. So I think that is one. But Minter was interesting, right? That was a guy who came on my radar very late in the process. Like, how could you not have him on your list? What are you thinking Jim Harbaugh said that he was going to lose him, which is always like an interesting thing because it's like with coaches like that, like, why are you saying that? You know, like I just never, I never know why.

And you could just be like, yeah, I'm promoting all my guys or I'm not sure. I'm, you know, that one, I'm not 100% sure. But Weaver's interesting too. Like at some point, and I feel like we talked about this last year with Chris Horton, who's the Ravens Special Teams coordinator, also an excellent head coaching candidate. But when are people going to just hire coaches who have coached with John Harbaugh? Because John Harbaugh was the archetype of just, hey, I'm a really good football coach. And then I'll figure it out.

And, you know, well, it's not a sound business plan. I get it. And you're taking a lot of risks. Like Anthony Weaver is one of those guys. To me, it's not a less sound business plan than the business plan we usually choose. It's harder to, I would say like if you're an act, like if you're being an actuary, right, there's more causes of death. for this plan than like higher hot offensive coordinator, you know?

That's probably fair. There are more Joe judges than John Harbaugh's than we'd probably like to admit. Correct. And the fact that we don't know, like, you know, we're saying that it's worse for, you know, we're saying that it's so bad that they keep just hiring these offensive guys and recycling them. But we haven't had a lot of Joe judges. So we don't know how bad it could be if we just kept doing that, you know. With the question with Mentor to me, and the question is going to be the same thing with,

Liam Cohen. It's giving me even be the same thing with Cliff Kingsbury. If we're going to hire Cliff Kingsbury. One year in this role, I want to see more. I want to see more than one year. I want to see more than 13 games. I want to see what you look like when things take a dip. I want to see what you look like when injury strike. I want to see you have success in whatever role you have for more than one season before I'm going to make you a head coach. I think we've made a couple way too many mistakes thrusting guys into this opportunity faster than they should probably get it. That to me is one of the bigger issues more than just picking off the offensive coordinators over and over and over again. I want to see a little bit more time on task with these guys before I'm willing to give them head coach and jobs. That's me personally. Yeah. And not to jump back to the offense for one second, but you brought him up. But that's what interests me about Cliff more than anything is that you know, and just kind of doing a postmortem in Arizona, I think the couple of the things that he did that were noteworthy were coming in and being like, I need like Jeff Rogers. Like I need a guy who's going to show me how things work in the NFL. And after a couple weeks, it was very clear that his

offense wasn't working. I need offensive coaches who are going to show me how to make my offense work in the NFL. There was a humility there that I don't think necessarily comes from a lot of red hot play callers. And the fact that he's rebuilt his name, like, you know, if he gets out on the market, like, I'd be interested, you know, I don't know. I'd want to talk to Cliff Kingsbury. I probably would too. I just, to me, like, again, 13 games after what happened in Arizona. I would have some hesitation. The last two more questions I have for you, and we can run through these pretty quickly. We've talked about mostly coordinators in this group.

And the fact that Dan Campbell is having the success he's having in Detroit, who in your mind are sort of one, two, three, off the beaten path candidates that are in that, you know, CEO type head coach mold that is going to lead the building, even if they don't necessarily fit the mold of guys we typically hire as head coaches. Do you have any? Well, so I would say first that, I mean, this guy can kind of be a high. hybrid, but I mean, you know, Josh McCown interviewed for a head coaching job, you know, uh, that's already happened, you know, and we think he can call an offense. He's done such a

good job. I mean, he's been with Sam Darnold since the beginning. Um, and the Jets brought him in there for a reason, but I don't really understand why everything kind of cooled on him so quickly. I mean, anyone in Carolina is going to have a difficult time explaining that away. But the fact that he's back under Kevin O'Connell. Like, could that be your surprise former player hire of the cycle? You know, I wouldn't be surprised if he got interviews just because, you know, your OC in that situation is more of a designer, kind of a behind the scenes presence there. So could McCown sort of step to the forefront and get some interviews?

I think he fits, you know, I think he fits that mold really well, you know. And another guy that we didn't. bring up, um, that is really interesting to me and I'll probably make some people recoil when I say this is art Smith. Um, yeah, you know, so I mean, Atlanta's not, not lighting the world on fire here. Um, and Art Smith upgraded from quarterback from Desmond Ritter to Russell Wilson and is now throwing for 400 yards. Um, you know, uh, and if you talk about, you know, one of the themes that has come up a lot for me, for what people want this off-season, right? We want toughness. We want to look like the chargers. We want to look like the, we want to look like the Ravens. Art Smith's falcons teams were

tough as hell. I mean, they were leading the league in explosives with like Tyler Alger, just like running people over. And they did not have a quarterback. Like it was essentially like a modified Wildcat Service Academy offense, right? So I don't know. Give that guy another chance. Like, you know, that's not a name that people are going to be, you know, like, oh, God, we got to do this. But I'm like, you know, let's, let's apply a little bit of revisionist history to the past and think about things for a minute. I think that's totally fair. And again, with him, the biggest question I would have is not necessarily what would you do differently.

And the same thing with Brian Flores. Like, I'm not trying to make him relitigate every choice he made in Miami. But what did you learn from the first step? Right. Like, what did you learn from that experience taking it into this one? That would be probably the question I would have. for Arthur Smith is, you know, what, not even what mistakes did you make, but what things that went wrong in Atlanta do you think inform the decisions that you would make moving forward?

And I'd be very curious to hear what his answer to that would be. I would be too. I think that Atlanta was a textbook situation where things just got out of control. And, you know, I mean, first things first is you would probably stand on the table and demand that you have your quarterback in place. That's the problem. You know what I mean? That's the biggest mistake that they made.

Right. The hubris that came along with thinking, we can win with this guy and we can put anybody into this thing and make it work, that is the biggest mistake that they made. And so I think learning from that, there is a chance that it could go differently in a second stop. Last question I have for you because I think that we're digging in a little bit deeper into this because all of the work that you do. And I have a couple names I wanted to throw out there, coordinator candidates that you think people should be watching for in this cycle. So one of the first I'll start with on the offensive side is, Jake Peets over in Seattle. I think that the Seahawks are doing some really interesting things, and they're also

tying together two very different offenses, which I think is important to note. But you're seeing a lot of, you know, Jake is a long time, Sean McVeigh guy. He's called plays in college, so he has that experience too. But you're seeing some of the Rams influence that's being sprinkled in there in Seattle, and I think it's really helping them, you know, win some games. I think that that's a name to look out for. Brian Fleury, the tight ends coach in San Francisco, is another guy that I really like. I mean, I don't know how, you know, and I know he's interviewed for jobs in the past,

but, you know, that's one of those guys that I don't understand, you know, how or why he hasn't, you know, how he, how or why he hasn't gotten a job already. and I mentioned Mark Whipple, his son Spencer is a past game coordinator in Arizona. I like Spencer a lot. I think that Spencer has done a lot of really good work with quarterbacks there. And, you know, you can say what you want about the totality of, you know, he was even there during the Cliff Kingsbury era. But another young guy knows the position really well. Like those are some guys that I would probably keep on my radar for offensive guys.

The two I would throw out. First one, I'd be curious what Nick Haley's market looks like this year. as a coordinator candidate. He's the tight ends coach in passing coordinator in L.A. He interviewed for multiple head coach or offensive coordinator jobs last year, believe turned out in the Patriots job. So he will definitely be somebody that is in demand incredibly dynamic personality. I'm curious what his trajectory looks like moving forward. I'm interested in Israel Wolf Fork, who's the quarterback's coach in Arizona. He is very well regarded in that building. And so if Drew Petzing were to move on, is he somebody that gets promoted? Would he,

go with Drew potentially of Drew got a head coaching job. His future is somebody that I'm interested in. And then on the defensive side of the ball, the first name that I would go to, super young, but I think has done obviously a very good job this year was a candidate for coordinator jobs last year. Christian Parker, who is the defensive backs coach for the Eagles. I'm very curious what his market looks like this offseason as a defensive coordinator. Especially now getting tied to that system. And the secondary there has just been off the charts. Two other names, too, that I think are worth. mentioning on the offensive side, you have two former quarterbacks that are in big time quarterback coaching spots in Gerard Johnson and Houston and Thad Lewis in Tampa. Those are both guys that,

I mean, I had even asked, you know, again, former players, dynamic presences, and I was like, you know, could those be guys that you would just, you know, maybe even jump on an interview for head coaching jobs? Because I think that was last year that I was asking that question because it's like, okay, it's so, you know, the market is, it's such a need-based thing. But if we switch over to defense, I would say a couple names here that I really like. Brian Duker in Miami, I think is a really interesting name. Jonathan Cooley, who's the defensive passing game coordinator in Carolina, is a really cool guy, I think, really interesting guy.

And Ezra, I love. Like you talk about a wild card candidate. If you were to interview Ezro for a head coach and hire him this year, I mean, he almost, he had two interviews in Seattle. And Carolina was the worst team in the NFL. Like somebody will, Ejira will be a head coach in the NFL in the next three years. And he's going to be a great head coach in the NFL. But it's going to take the right team in the right time.

You got to have some vision there because those deep, these defenses have been actively bad over the last couple years. Yeah. They have zero talent. I mean, there's a very real argument that they have the least talent of any defense in the NFL. So I understand how they get there. But at the same time, it's like that sell becomes a little bit tougher based on the results they've put on the field in Carolina the last couple seasons. Agree.

Jeff Howard from the Seattle Seahawks to defensive backs coach there. He's coached in a bunch of different systems too, which I think is really interesting. He was in Cleveland for a second. He was with the Chargers last year. Now he's up there, you know, working in that system with Mike McDonald's. So, you know, Jeff is somebody who has a varied background and it would absolutely be somebody I would want to talk to as part of this stuff. For sure. Yeah. I think that, you know, it's fun to do this exercise because you're like, God, there's a lot of like, there's a lot of really fun young guys out here. Yeah. Like, let's get them, let's move them up, you know? Like, let's stop doing some of the stuff that we're doing and hiring the same coaches over and over again.

Connor or sincerely appreciate the time, my friend. If you guys have not gone and checked out the list that Connor does for us every single year, it is exhaustive. I mean, we're talking about, I mean, how many head coaching candidates are on that list? The top tier has 27. I think this year, I always get a text from people making fun. I mean, I think there was like 121 total people that we've talked about in some way, shape, or form. So probably too much. Any name you could want mention is going to be on that list. And there's going to be some pertinent information about most of them.

So if your team is in the market for a head coaching candidate, please go check. out that list because Connor does a very good job with it every year. Sincerely appreciate the time, sir. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks, Robert. All right, let's get to our conversation with Jordan Roderig and Alec Lewis about one of the names people are going to be chasing or one of the models people are going to be chasing in this cycle. Kevin O'Connell. Joining us now are two of our wonderful beatwriters here at The Athletic, two people who wrote a story earlier this year about Kevin O'Connell that I've wanted to talk about on the show earlier in the season. I'm just bad at scheduling things. So because we were doing an extra show, we decided to revisit this conversation as part of the larger

discussion we're having about this coaching class because I think that we all believe we know what we should be looking for in the next head coach of an NFL team. And the amount of times that we are drastically wrong about that is horrifying, but also important and instructive as we think about this coaching class. So I wanted to talk about a recent success story in the head coaching searches and the head coaching finds that an organization is made. And that is about Kevin O'Connell. So joining us today, to discuss their story about KOC and about their experiences with him. First of all, we have our Vikings writer at The Athletic.

It's Alec Lewis. Alec, how you doing, man? I'm great, Robert. Thanks for having me. I'm great. I'm exhausted. I mean, 11 and 2. This has been, it's been a whirlwind, but I mean, we were talking about it before we

saw a recording. Jordan said she was grateful for the game. She got to watch Sunday. I've been grateful for this whole ride that's been. So thanks for having me. Pumped to be here. Yeah, when we push this back, there was always the question of, can the Vikings keep this rolling?

And the answer has been absolutely yes. another person coming off a wonderful game from yesterday. It is our Rams writer at the Athletic. Jordan Roderick. Jordan, how are you doing? I'm good. I'm good. I am riding the high of seeing a lot of points scored.

And a monster Josh Allen game, a monster Matthew Stafford game, a monster Pooka game. Like, it's all good, guys. So let's dig into this. And the place that I want to start is just what Kevin O'Connell was as a coaching candidate before he was given the job. Because when we do this, when we look at the next pool of coordinators, I think one of the bigger questions that always comes along with it is, does that person even call it at the place where they are?

And so Kevin O'Connell, by a lot of ways that we measure this, wasn't the cleanest head coaching candidate because he wasn't the offensive architect and the play caller in Los Angeles. So, Jordan, as you go back and you think about just what he was within that building and maybe some of the breadcrumbs that we maybe couldn't identify in the moment, but you may have understood that would lead him to be the sort of candidate and success story that he's been, where would you start? Yeah, I actually credit the Vikings search committee on this because they dug a little bit deeper than other teams. There are a couple of other interviews that he had at the time, including an AFC team that will go unnamed. But it was they dug the Vikings search committee or staff, they dug deeper in that, what is it that you do here? And so they, you know, they found out the thing that we had seen on the ground, but then also that you can see right out in front of your face, you know, every, every week. in Minnesota at this point and over the last several years is he really was the architect between everything Matthew Stafford already knew and was bringing into the building in 2021

and every every place that Sean McVane needed his offense to get to. And if it were just the coach and the quarterback themselves doing that, I still tend to think just because the difference of experiences between the two and what that previous system looked like and what was known and what the rules were of the previous system. And all of the mass amount of data that the veteran quarterback had, it would just have taken longer to unpack and unmind all of those different things that then built, would build this offense that in 2021 got out to a 7-1 start, kicked the door down, started doing things, especially out of certain packages that they built together, like while wine tasting, by the way, like, just the league

was not prepared for. But Kevin O'Connell was the person, the architect in the middle of that. Like if he heard one language from Matthew and another language from Sean, he could draw a blueprint that would blend the two things together. That was absolutely crucial in the Rams Super Bowl season. And it's something that Kevin O'Connell has always been gifted at. But when he's given really the reins or the wheel of the car and told to drive and really do that full time, that's what you're seeing in Minnesota right now. Alec, there's something in your guys' story that jumped out to me that I think is important to

parse. Kevin describing his own two most dominant qualities he has to his personality. The first being obsession with process and detail and how you guys phrased it. And the second being empathy. And I'm curious, we'll get to the nuts and bolts of how the offense is installed and how it's taught and maybe some of the strengths that come along with that. The empathy part of this, because I think if you compare COC to a Dan Campbell or to a Mike Tomlin, even if he was a former NFL player, he doesn't have that like big boy football guy energy to him, the same way. some of these other coaches do. So what about the specifics of kind of who he is and how he interacts with players,

Alec, do you think has led to the buy-in that you have seen in that building over the last couple years? Yeah, well, I'm glad you started with Jordan because she, her idea was really the impetus for this story in general and her experience with Kevin in Los Angeles. So I was glad you started there. I think really, and Jordan got hit the nail on the head. He is a master at translation. kind of being able to acquire information from people and then disseminate that to another segment of people.

That is what allows him to be so successful. And why he's able to create the buy-in that he has is a lot of being able to understand the why and then explain the why. That's really it. It's like Brian O'Neill, the Vikings' right tackles, had a phenomenal year, said to me before the season, it's like you never, there are never plays that are run here. to where you don't know what we are trying to get accomplished. And so it is an ability even in-game to understand what defenses are doing and why they may adjust in game and being able to explain to players,

this is why we're going to go back to this certain concept or play package that we used earlier in the season because I'm seeing this from the defense and this is how we can attack it. I think that's really what has allowed the buy-in. Now, for the empathy in general, so much of it to me and Jordan, I think knows this very much as well, just derives from his own playing experience. Like, this is a guy who was a really, really good college quarterback at San Diego State. He was a sneaky athletic runner, which he probably wouldn't appreciate me saying that, but it's the reality. And then he was drafted to the Patriots building that shaped a lot of his perspective on what wins and what doesn't.

But he never really got the opportunity that he always coveted. And he is just so passionate about, I think, guys, specifically quarterbacks being maximized within the infrastructure that they're given. And so much of that perspective was shaped by his own arc. So you can't, as much as like he may say it sometimes, like, you can't separate the experience that he has as a player and how that shapes how he wants to coach guys and how he thinks guys should be coached. When I sat down with Kevin, Alec put it so well. when I sat down with him for these interviews in the summer, I asked him directly, do you, are you trying to be, do you, are you trying to evolve into becoming the person that you never had as a coach? And he said yes. And it wasn't a knock on anyone that he had

ever been coached by. It wasn't a knock. He was, he had the luxury, I think he would say this too, of being in some really great personality-fueled brainiac quarterback's rooms over his time as a third string as a backup. But what he meant by that was he always felt like he left something on the table. Like when he left his career and ultimate, there's some injuries and things involved, there was never anyone who identified him and was like, I believe in you. Let's see what you got, kid. And that's exactly what Kevin does.

It doesn't matter if it's a quarterback or really any other player, but we especially see it with the quarterback with the Sam Donald story. he's looking directly at him and said, like, I see something in you. Let's see what you got. And that is so powerful for a young person in general, but also for a quarterback. But then also, to Alex's point, you're given all of the translated tomes of detail that you need to actually succeed. And you've got a great cast around you. It's just been special to see. And it does drive directly from him trying to be the person for others that he wished he had as he was growing up. into adulthood as a player.

As I'm trying to build the through lines when we see successful head coaches, even if stylistically, they're a little bit different. And I think Mike Tomlin has loomed large in a lot of people's minds just because he's probably gone underappreciated for too long. And the Steelers are obviously having an excellent season. And as I think about the similarities between a Mike Tomlin and a Dan Campbell and a Kevin O'Connell, something I come back to, even if it's delivered in a slightly different way, is honesty.

And I think players seek out honesty. Are you going to be real with me? Are you going to lay out the realities of this situation? It can be delivered a little bit softer if you're Kevin O'Connell than it would be delivered from Mike Tomlin. But Jordan, I'm curious how you see that as like a pillar of communication between players and coaches, just an open line of communication, but also a willingness to just kind of tell guys how it is, even if at times that can lead to some uncomfortable conversations.

Yeah, I mean, he had to work with Sean. I mean, that's a wrong phrasing. He worked with Sean McVeigh. It doesn't really get much more high stress and chaotic functional dysfunction than that, really. But the thing about Kevin is that I think when you see him and how, you know, you see these clips that go viral and they're wonderful, right? They're exactly who he is, that empath, someone who's coming up to the opposing quarterback who's going through a hard time and tells him he believes in him. Like, we see all those clips. But this dude will get after you in meetings.

Like, he actually, he's got a little darkness to him. And I think all former quarterbacks, all coaches really who are worth their salt in this league do. But he knows when to tap into that and push that energy out and really get after somebody with this meticulous detail-oriented approach or whether to pull back and ask them what they need from him. And I think that's the gift that he has, that these great coaches that you mentioned, Robert, that they do have is they'll know when to tell you you're wrong. They're also going to tell you why and help you fix it. But they're going to do it in a way that reaches you fully because they're going to do it in a way that reaches you fully because they're, they've taken the time to understand who you are. And I think that's the big differentiator in these really successful, like, Y guy, head coaches who are personable who we're seeing at the apex of the league right now versus maybe people who are still working out how to find that balance.

Authenticity is another word that comes to mind, where you see these interactions. And even if there are cameras involved, it doesn't seem like he's doing them from any other place than like an honest, authentic spot. And I think that that comes across when you just see how he interacts with people. Alec, I'm sure that that's something that you've noticed just as you've seen him work with players here over the last couple of years. Yeah, I'll reiterate exactly what Jordan said. There are times where he has it and he is willing to let it rip on guys and on the team. And you just those are not the clip. You guys?

Yeah, we're on the media members per se, maybe or maybe not that's happened. But yeah, I think for him like, and like a great example is this past summer, Jordan Addison, second year wide receiver has, has played phenomenally specifically of late. But he's had a couple off-field incidents, and he was asked pretty frank. Kevin O'Connell was asked about those situations this summer. And rather than just crushing Jordan in the media and public, like he likes to handle that stuff privately.

Now, the fact that he was not incredibly forward about his discipline, the media did not mean behind the scenes they were not having very serious, very intense, very honest conversations. And to Jordan's point, he just feels like it's more about developing the right relationship with the guy to where then anything you say is understood, is felt as opposed to doing anything for show. Like I think it's exactly the authentic comment that you made, Robert. Like he is more willing to do what it takes as long as he has built the relationship. And then it's willing to do what it takes not when the cameras are watching, but behind. the scenes at any instance.

There was a line in your guys' piece. It was just a quote from Kevin that I'm going to read in its entirety because I think it's the best way to get this point across. And he said with the proper amount of structure, coaching, and clarity that you can give these players, you can make this very difficult thing or this complex thing feel simple. You're constantly trying to find that balance. And the balance isn't how you're coaching it. And here's the kicker.

I never want to be a Monday morning clicker coach where I'm holding the clicker saying, you should have done this, this, and this. If I'm saying those things, I probably didn't coach it very well. And another word, if we're trying to find buzzwords as part of this discussion that I come back to with Kevin and just talking to Sam Donald about him and talking other players, is intentionality behind these ideas. What is the intention of the things that we're trying to accomplish? The details, again, that I'm obsessing with process and details. So, Jordan, as you think about the Y guy aspects of Kevin O'Connell as a coach and how that intentionality and the details of certain plays, concepts, ideas are communicated. What are the nuances of how he's doing it compared to some of the other guys that you have talked to over the last?

last couple years. Yeah, I think everybody's got their own style, especially the ones who have tenure, right? They have a process that works, right, for them. And it's, it's been instilled and ingrained through the fabric of the walls around them, right? It's understood when players come in. Kevin had an interesting differentiation because he didn't have tenure, right? He is still such a new, relatively new head coach. And so he had to establish a process, but really communicate what it was at a level where you could, it would spark in your brain like you could understand, oh, I can see the end of the tunnel on this. I know that if I do this, this, this, this in between, I can see where I'm trying to go. And one of the examples that I use, and he's used before and is in the story that we wrote as well,

is the way that he connects different words together through the entire playbook. So every concept of calls, every concept family of calls, which a lot of coaches call buckets, we'll call that here for the sake of just easier communication, which Kevin could probably run circles around all three of us in doing, but we're going to try. So they put together these families of concepts run and pass game that are in buckets, right? And each bucket, it's almost like in vision there is a, like a wooden stake that is connecting all of the handles of the buckets together of all of these different concept families. Well, that wouldn't handle is word recognition and pattern recognition within those words. So every word that identifies a bucket of calls has another identifier that connects it to the

next bucket. So when they're installing and building concepts off of each other and in game planning, when you have to stick with your foundational offense and your principles while still trying to outmaneuver the opponent, something like this where you have over time a wide network of buckets all connected by words that connect to another to another to another, it becomes an escort for players who are walking through a very rudimentary element of the offense and walking into more layers and more layers and more layers and more layers and suddenly standing, you know, and seeing all of these buckets around them and that they can basically walk into in any given moment very quickly because of that word recognition and that concept recognition. And it's almost like

it's holding their hand as they go there. It's taking them to it. And that sort of mental process, that's very intentional. That is something that he has studied for a very, very long time in a lot of previous other stops. It worked for him as a learner. And it's something that he has tried to apply in this offense. And it's part of the reason why not only you see this offense work, you see people understand it.

You see it click for players. But now that it's become more ingrained, like I said, in the walls around them. And there's more repetition and more layers that are being built, more buckets that exist and more words that are that connect. them. You're seeing like, this is a Vikings team that's not, we're not like, oh, are they really legit? You know, they're actually, they're putting it together year week over week, over week, over week. And their floors are higher than they used to be. And their ceilings are also higher. And that's because these types of things are becoming a part of the core and foundational elements

of what it is to be in that offense. And that's what all these tenured coaches have. They have that type of, a process that doesn't have to be that specifically, but it is a process of teaching and learning, a process of layering concepts, and then time, continuity, time to actually get that, like, oozing out of the fabric and the grain and the wood and the walls, you know? Something that really jumped out to me. We can talk all we want about how you establish the system, how you instruct the system, how you teach the system. Flexibility becomes hugely important when you're an offensive football coach.

And Justin Jefferson is kind of the touch point you guys used to explain this, and it's a perfect way to get into it. Because if you're going to see the word that you guys use, I think is just correct, is bespoke defensive game plans that are very different than what teams have put on film for a good chunk of the year. There are two things that are going to drive that. One is the right quarterback and one is the right receiver. And I remember having conversations with Scott Linahan years ago about what it would be like coaching an offensive team with Calvin Johnson, where you would go through the entire week of prep and you would think you were going to get this thing. And then

it would be completely different because Calvin Johnson was on your team. And the Vikings get some of that stuff. So, Alec, just walk me through in your mind how you think the game plans for Justin Jefferson the deployment and how they sort of build this thing around him and have to shift around him at times is kind of indicative of Kevin's mental nimbleness and acuity in some of these moments. Yeah, well, that's the word adaptability comes in mind. And for him, as we've anchored this entire conversation about these specific words, that to me may be over the overarching, like maybe his best quality. And it derives as Jordan could talk about for a long time. I mean, even in the Super Bowl, he was adaptable on the sidelines in that game.

But he's adaptable to adverse situations. I mean, this summer they had a player tear their ACL. They had a player in Kyrie Jackson pass away tragically. They had J.J. McCarthy, the quarterback, they were enjoying the heck out of developing, Terra's meniscus. And to be adaptable within all that is one layer of it. And then it's in-game adaptability to your point. Like early in his time here, defense.

would provide these bespoke game plans, whether it's matching Justin, whether it's cloud coverage, whether it's more split safety in a game than has ever been used before by defenses. The Jags game this year is hilarious. It's a man-heavy team the entire season and they come on and play like 90% cover two against the Vikings. And that game, they struggled a little bit. I mean, when teams are going to throw those sorts of curbed balls at you, it's an entirely different challenge. And you will see throughout the course of these games, there are some that by the end of it,

if you see Kevin holding his play sheet, it looks like, It's been run underwater, ripped up, because he has really built in on his play call sheet answers for what they might get on that specific day. And early, I mean, that's adaptability from the first point in his time here with Justin. He has learned that to give this offense, as every coach says, the best chance to win on Sunday, he has to have answers depending on what the opponents throw at him. And so that to me, I mean, Colt McCoy, who is very close with Kevin, talked. about their shared time in Washington and how good Kevin it was in terms of adjustments even at that time. So, you know, we always talk about halftime adjustments, endgame adjustments, hard to get a feel for what that really looks like. But they live it. Kevin O'Connell and this

staff lives it every week with what they see against Justin Jefferson. Jordan, the last thing I'll ask you here, and we could have a two-hour conversation about this. I know, right. And you've had, you've had 10-hour conversations about this idea specifically. But as we go into the next phase of the coaching cycle and the next hiring cycle. I think that there are some people within more simple understanding of all of this, and they're going to look at Sean McVeigh and they're going to look at Kevin O'Connell and some of the other people off that tree and say, if we pick offensive coach from this team equals success. And I want you to just try to describe a little bit more about the depth than some of the nuances for what you're actually trying to steal from that Rams

building when you're looking for somebody like Sean McVeigh and Kevin O'Connell that's just a little bit deeper than some of the top line resume points for these guys. Yeah, I don't know who needs to hear this, but don't firefly to the scheme. Like, I'm looking directly at you, some NFL owners. Like, don't firefly directly to the scheme on this. If you're looking for a coordinator, don't firefly directly to the scheme when you're pulling out of this coaching tree. Dig a little deeper. Do like, again, I credit the Vikings for doing this. Dig deeper on who it actually is that you are investing in as a potential leader of your team? Because first and foremost, and any of those guys on that coaching tree, on any of these two like kind of cross-pollinated

coaching trees at this point with Kevin's background being a little bit different, like, they will tell you it's get the most highly developed EQ person as well as the person who understands how to teach. And that really was the secret sauce, even at 30 with Sean, even when he came into the league, everybody who was in the hiring cycle for the Rams was skeptical about Sean McVeigh because of his age and who the hell is this kid, right? But then they started talking to his players

and they started asking how he installed the offense that he was responsible for, whether he was a tight-ends coach or then when he was the OC. What is he responsible for specifically? And how does he teach it? Can you teach it to me because of how he taught it to you? And that's what they did. And that's how they found Sean.

Now a winter storm grounding their plane in New England when they were interviewing the wrong candidates for the job. And then Kyle Shanahan not wanting to move his schedule also had some things to do with getting to Sean. A little bit of luck is always involved in these processes. Just like December, January football. Got to have a little bit of luck. But this was really the secret sauce of that. It's can the person who taught this to you, can you now teach it to me because of how they taught it to you? And I think that is of the utmost importance.

The game management, the things that, you know, is a life learning process that is like kind of sexy to talk about right now, those things happen by that person understanding how to put the right people around them and constantly pushing themselves to learn and all of that. But at the core foundation is, do they have enough of a knowledge of this concept or of this offense or of their own process of an offense to be able to teach it to a wide variety of learning abilities of people, of backgrounds, of emotional and professional experiences, of veteran versus rookie, of just like types of learning. Can it be applicable? Do they have a process that is applicable through an entire ecosystem? And then could those players teach it

to you, the interviewer, back, how you learned it and would it make sense? And that is the true mark of an effective teacher is, can you explain this to me? And that's all players want. Can you explain why we're going to do this to me? Because when they know that, it is like, it comes to life. It's taking play concepts and playbooks going from one and two dimensional and making them three and four dimensional. And I think that's really what it is. The names and the tree or whatever, like that's obviously the thing that everybody has firefied over and firefled toward, perhaps too fast in some cases. Digging deeper in that sense and really figuring out with the right questions to ask, and if you don't have the right answer from that person, not continuing to try to make

it fit or make it work, going to find the right person. It's a simple process. It's a very passive aggressive commentary for me. I'm sorry. Listen, it's incredibly important because I think that even as we have more data than we've ever had, even as the processes for a lot of the way that we handle these billion-dollar businesses have gotten probably better than they ever have been because of all the information out there. This is still a black box for people. This is still an area where the most important

decision you make in a lot of ways about your organization can go sideways because we're asking the wrong questions of looking in the wrong places. So just figuring out how to find the right places in a little bit smoother of a way. I think that's still a constant battle that these teams are going through. And that's why we're having this conversation. And we'll continue to have it however often we need to about these coaching candidates. So Alec Jordan, sincerely appreciate the time from both of you. We will catch up. very soon. Thanks for having us, Robert. Thanks, Robert. It's fun. As always.

All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much to Connor. Thank you to Alec and Jordan for their time. Sincerely appreciate it. Sincerely appreciate you guys listening. Obviously, this is a bonus episode. This is coming out on Tuesday. We don't typically have a Tuesday show. This is a special one for you. We will have our normal midweek episode coming out on Wednesday morning. We're going to chat with our Bengals writer Paul Deiner about that Monday night game, but also more so just about the state of the Cincinnati Bengals in general as we look forward to 2025.

We're also going to talk to Derek Classen about the other teams that had playoff aspirations, championship aspirations coming into the season, that the shine is off on that a little bit. The Cowboys, the Niners, what comes next for all of those teams? So please come back tomorrow and check that out. In the meantime, really appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.