The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Lions and Seahawks put on a show, our first 2025 NFL Draft check-in of the season, and more with Dane Brugler

Episode Date: October 1, 2024

Dane Brugler makes his triumphant return to The Athletic Football Show to start laying groundwork for the 2025 NFL Draft. He and Robert Mays take a big-picture look at the class, and dig deeper into prospects who have caught Dane's eye, including Travis Hunter and Ashton Jeanty. The guys start the show by recapping Seahawks-Lions and Titans-Dolphins, and wrap it up by discussing Malik Nabers, the rookies in the Rams' defensive front and the top-two quarterbacks from the 2024 NFL Draft.RundownTitans-Dolphins recapSeahawks-Lions recapMovers on Dane Brugler's 2025 NFL Draft big boardUpon Further Review: Jalen MilroeUpon Further Review: Chargers defense and Chiefs offense check-insThe Ball Knower: Malik Nabers is already a top-10 WRThe Ball Knower: Jared Verse and Braden Fiske are doing workThe Ball Knower: Is Ryan Poles sweating yet?Host: Robert MaysWith: Dane BruglerExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Dane on X: @dpbruglerTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football brought to you by Thursday Night Football only on Prime Video. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. Our old buddy, Dan Brugler is here. We're talking a little bit of draft. Obviously, for those you guys are unfamiliar

with Dan's work, he's our draft expert here at the Athletic, covers the space in a way that really no one else does. It's great to have Dan on just to talk about what the 2025 draft is shaping up to be. What is this class overall? What does the quarterback landscape look like? Some weaknesses for certain positions,

some strengths. What are teams making of Travis Hunter, which position is he going to play, really enjoyed all that draft chatter with Dan. We also recapped both of the Monday night games that we got to watch last night, talked a little about where the dolphins are right now, what we saw from a great Lion Seahawks game, and then chat about some rookies. Obviously, those are guys that Dane is paying attention to in year one after studying them

as prospects. So talked about a lot of really good stuff. Let's get to it. Joining us now, it is our draft expert here at The Athletic and someone I am thrilled to have back on the show. It's Dane Brugler. Dane, how you doing, man? Good, Robert.

How are you? Doing okay. We're still in Detroit. We did a live event with the Athletic in the New York Times last night. So I'm doing this from a hotel and we'll get back a little bit later tonight. But a fantastic Monday night football game, which we're going to dig into along with a lot of draft chatter. We're letting you put out a couple different hats today. Typically when you're here, it's like all draft talk all the time.

But we're going to do a little rookie talk because obviously you're paying attention to those guys and the people that you were analyzing and breaking down throughout the entire draft process last year. but we're also going to let you talk some actual NFL football and talk about both of those Monday night games. So get to spread your wings a little bit today. I just want to thank you for allowing me to watch that Dolphins Titans game in depth and just the joy of watching those two quarterbacks. And yeah, a little bit of sarcasm in my voice there.

I deeply sorry for that. It was funny because last night we were at the bar watching Seahawks Lions in Detroit. And so they didn't really have the Dolphins Titans game on many of the TV. it was hard to pay attention to. And I was telling Derek as we're sitting there, I'm like, I already resent the fact that when I wake up tomorrow morning, I have to rewatch this game. I'm already upset that I have to do it.

You're a trooper, man. I don't, if you just won't look at the box score of that and it's like, okay, I think we can maybe just surface level pass on that. But credit to you, because that's, there's a lot of bad football played in that game. Let's chat about that game first, because I do think that more than just hand-waving it away, I do think there's. some stuff to dig into, particularly with the dolphins and where they sit right now.

When you look at what's happening with them on offense, I mean, they're one of the worst offenses in football down to down and have been essentially since two got hurt. And even they didn't really have a great outing against the Jags in week one when he was playing. So this was already trending in the wrong direction before they lost their starting quarterback and then

the entire thing is completely imploded. And what I keep coming back to with this is that they built this offense in such a hyper-specific way that removing the quarterback has made it borderline not functional. And I think that speaks to how fragile and inflexible the model that they were putting together actually is.

And I think that's an indictment of the people building the model. We've had quarterback injuries around the NFL. McMilleek Willis is stacking up wins for the Packers after they lose Jordan Love. And I don't think that we should just give the Dolphins and Mike McDaniel and everybody there a pass because they lost to a time of my law because we wouldn't be doing. that for pretty much any other staff in the entire NFL. And this is going to be my question to you. Exactly.

It's just rip the Band-Aid off and how much heat does Mike McDaniel deserve for this? Because you're absolutely right. I mean, go back to last year with, you know, Kevin Stefansky did with Joe Flacco coming in. Jake Browning, the Bengals had a winning record when Jake Browning started for them last year. So we've seen it time and time again. And the onus is on your. offensive-minded head coach to put your personnel, well, first of all, to build the roster and the way you want to build a roster, but then build the product on the field to be productive,

be efficient. And it just looks like they have, it just looks like a mess out there. And yeah, I think you're right about the style that they want to play. But, you know, you have to have a hard look in the mirror and say, okay, if we don't have the personnel to run that, how do we tweak this? to make sure we're getting the best out of who we have on the field to fit their strengths. And it just feels like they want to run what they want to run. And they're not willing to properly, maybe they're willing, but they don't know how to tweak this thing to get the best out of who they actually have on the field at this point. We talked about this a lot in the offseys about how the dolphins were going to move past where they were over the last couple of years and why they stalled out over the last couple of years. And when you see teams struggle with specific aspects of their offense, they typically overcorrect to make up for those struggles, right?

So the dolphins couldn't really run the ball downhill. They struggled to hold up in pass protection when they were in defined passing situations and two ahead, held on to the ball for more than two and a half seconds. So you think, okay, maybe you add a little bit more heft along the offensive line. You figure out a way to bring a little bit more physicality to the way that you play. And instead of doing that, they continued to double down on what they already had on the roster. They got smaller up front, not bigger. They added more speed, not more size.

And I get it to an extent. It's like, this is what we do. And if we figure out how to just maximize these traits, maybe we can overcome some of those shortcomings. The problem is you needed Tua to play that way. And so when you remove him from the equation, it just makes those issues even more apparent. And to me, it's the running game, right? Because the running game is something where you should be able to lean into this if you're not going to be able to throw the ball as consistently.

They are dead last in the NFL in the amount of the percentage of their runs that are stuffed at the line of scrimmage. It's 29.9%. The league average is 16.5%. So it's almost double the rate of any other team of the league average in the NFL. They are second to last in EPA per carry. And that makes sense because now they don't have a team that can just be like, all right, let's flip a switch and let's be able to kind of establish ourselves on the ground if we're

going to have a backup quarterback in the game. That's what these teams have been able to do. You think about what the Packers did with Malik Willis. That was the exact plan all the way through. And then without Tua, now you see the offensive lines inability to hold up in pass protection when they have to hold up for more than a second and a half. Because now you have a quarterback. I talked to Frank Smith about this this summer.

And I thought that it was such an interesting insight about why Tua is able to operate that offense. And it's a product of really equity earned over time in terms of how he trusts what he's seeing. It's not a situation where, all right, I'm just going to let this thing rip immediately because that's what they're telling me to do. You have to do it over and over and over again to build the trust in the construction of the offense to play that fast. Snoop Huntley's been there for like four days. He doesn't have a month and a half, two months of training camp to get to a place where I can just let these things go immediately. So I think that a lot of people are going to construe this as like, oh, man, two is so valuable to the dolphins. Maybe two is better than we even expect, than we think he is.

I think that he's really valuable to the dolphins because the dolphins have painted themselves into a corner with how they can play football. And I think ultimately that becomes an indictment of the head coach and the model that you're trying to follow. Yeah, it's, you know, talk about trying to thread a needle. I mean, and Tua is a quarterback that has had his injury struggles before. Okay, this isn't like a quarterback that, you know, you feel like is an iron man in terms of staying on the field, staying healthy. and I mean, hopefully he's back on the field here sooner rather than later, but he's a quarterback that's going to take some hits. And when he does, you just cross your fingers that he's going to be able to good,

good to go, get right back up. And when you don't respect the passing game, like the Titans defense had no respect for New Puntley in that passing game yesterday. So that makes it even harder to run the ball. I thought they had, there were a few moments where they had a little bit of success with Jalen Wright, who, you know, because we know A-Chane's more of a guy that's going to dance here, dance here, wait for that hole to open, then boom, hit it. Right was more of the, okay, I'm going to get it, hit the afterburners, immediately get

downhill, try to use my speed more so than dancing. But again, when the defense knows what you're trying to do and they don't respect your passing game, it's just hard to live that way. You can't run the ball consistently and complete opposite of what we see from, you know, like the second Monday night game with the team like the Lions and when the way their balance of their offense and the efficiency that they're playing with. I mean, it's just, it is, I think the dolphins have to look at the structure of how they built this roster and then also their game plan and say, I mean, this is on us.

There's no other way to look at it. And then obviously when you're going to play the way some teams are playing against them where they're challenging those guys at the line of scrimmage trying to defang what that speed means, you need to hit a couple of those shots over the top. And they had opportunities. And they had Tyree killed down the field multiple times in that game. But when you don't have a quarterback who could. take advantage. It's just one more thing that starts to chip away at the foundation of who

you're trying to be on offense. And I think that we've seen that foundation start to crumble a little bit. On the other side of the ball, I don't really know what to make of the whole Titans quarterback situation at this point. I think Mason Rudolph looked marginally better than Willis has at times this year. But Mason Rudolph's been in the NFL for like how many seasons. You see him progressing a little bit faster because he's a veteran quarterback. So I think that made aspects of the Titans offense look a little bit better than they have over the first few weeks. I think that's a small improvement in the short term, but I don't think that that means that Mason Rudolph is a better answer in the long term.

So I still expect to see Will Levis in there. But I still think overall, my takeaway with this Titans team is they're an offense that's still trying to find itself, figure out what it does well. And I think that's going to be an ongoing process. Does any quarterback throw more funny interceptions than Will Levis? I mean, it's certainly not. It is from an entertainment value. It's certainly there.

I'm glad you're enjoying yourself as Brian Calhann is slowly losing his mind. But they knew this is what this team, this year's offense was going to be about, was figuring out, okay, as Will Love is going to be our guy. And you have to play it out, let him make some plays, see if he can. I mean, but this was a team that came in, O'N3. And they finally won a game, but with a different quarterback making most of the plays. So with Will Levis, it's just a matter of can he take care of the football? Because we know what he's going to give you running the football.

We know he has a big time arm. Can he take care of the football, make the right decisions with the right time? And we haven't seen it consistently. And Mason Rudolph comes in, gives them marginally better results in those areas. And the dolphins, I mean, they just struggled on defense to consistently stop the run. We saw the Pollard, Spears, two running back tandem. I thought those two guys, they played really well in moments. In the way that they balanced that timeshare, it keeps them fresh.

And it does a really nice job of sprinkling the right plays with the right time with the right guy. And I really enjoyed that. The left side of the offensive line with J.C. Latham and Skoronski is a lot of fun. I mean, J.C. Latham, he really struggled in that over. opener. But he set the bar so low that it's been getting better and better and better moves pretty well for a guy that size. He had a couple blocks at the second level that were able to spring some big runs. And I think as he is catching up to the speed of the NFL, it's allowing him to play to play to his strengths, which is just play strength. It is ability to get my hands on

you and I will control you once I do. So when his steps are right, when his timing is right, that's when he can really play at his best. And as more comfortable as he gets, we're seeing him be able to do that. And so that's been a lot of fun to watch. I'd say there are three areas if we're trying to figure out where the Titans are trying to find

their footing on offense that I would keep coming back to. And this was true in the Packer game and you saw a chunk playoff of it right before Will Levis throws that interception to Agba. Their 12 personnel play action game, I think, is the best thing they're doing throwing the ball because the right side, the left side of the offensive line is promising.

the right side of the offensive line is an abject disaster. Like it is a serious, serious problem. So when they can get extra bodies in protection and they're keeping things cleaner for Levis, those are his best moments as a pastor. They got to chunk off of it right before he throws the pick. So if that can be a way that they're trying to find chunk plays in the passing game, I do think that's something they should continue to lean into. One of the reasons they haven't necessarily been able to do that over the last couple weeks

is they've fallen into early holes. So it's hard to establish yourself on the ground and then with the play action. The way that they're trying to run the ball, I still think they're trying to sort through some of that because outside of the right side of the offensive line, they don't really have a ton of physicality at tight end. So when they're asking Vinette to make plays at the point of attack, he struggled yesterday when being asked to do that. When they're doing some split zone stuff, though, and they're bringing those kind of undersized tight ends across the formation and allowing some of those guys to get on the second level, the Lathams, etc. That's where they had a lot of success yesterday.

So I would be surprised that they didn't lean into that a little bit more. And then the last aspect of this that I think is a way to use both of those backs and is something that I think that they're going to really dig into over the course of the rest of the season. Their screen game is good. And if you're worried about past protection, you're trying to give your quarterback easy answers. I think that's a really good thing to lean on. And it's funny because you mentioned the Browns. This is the 2021 Browns playbook. Play action.

Gap scheme runs where we're pulling people and creating angles and screens. and that's a good way to insulate your quarterback and trying to minimize the mistakes that he's going to make as a pure dropback passer. So I think there's actually a lot of good stuff happening on the Titans offense right now. I think there's just some reasons the quarterback being one of them

that they're kind of shooting themselves on the foot and short-circuiting at some of the wrong moments. Right. But at the same time, I do hope that we see more Will Levis. I mean, I know what Mason Rudolph is. I want to see if they can, if something will click with Will Levis

and because he has the skill set. It's just a matter of things calming down for him, things slowing down for him, and can he get there with more experience? So hopefully, I mean, it sounds like we're going to see him right back on the field as soon as they deem him healthy. So hopefully they give him a chance to do that

so we can at least tell, all right, is quarterback the number one knee going to the off season? Or do we feel like we might have something as he progresses this year? I think that's exactly right. Again, there's no reason to lean into the marginal benefits of Mason Rudolph because where is that taking you in the long term? You need an answer on Levis by the end of this season. That's why you did what you did this off season.

It's why you go get a Latham. It's why you go get a cushioned by area. It's why you're aggressive to add past catchers. So hopefully we'll see him a little bit more and have a better understanding of what his long term projection is by the time we get to the end of the year. Let's get to the more entertaining, more enjoyable Monday night game that we got to watch yesterday. The Detroit Lions win a very fun game over the Seattle Seahawks, a game in which

Jared Gough goes 18 of 18. throwing the football and the lions do a fantastic job on the ground. These two teams just seem to play really thrilling, fun football games every time we see them on the same field. If they wanted to schedule a Seahawks Lions game every year in perpetuity, I would be very into that. Oh, sign me up. I mean, well, first off, just aesthetically talking the jerseys, a lot of variations of blue

and black last night. It's a good match up that way. I liked it. Yeah. Well, and do you think of black and blue, it's kind of, it's fitting? That's kind of the lions, how they want to play. They want to establish the run, open up the passing game, you know, the play action, the naked's in there. We know we're going to see a lot of 12 personnel.

Ben Johnson's going to do a lot of fun things with that. And then on defense, it's, okay, let's heat up the pocket. Let's try to disrupt Gino Smith, play physical in the secondary. It felt like the lions, how they performed. That's exactly how Dan Campbell wants this team to be. I mean, everything from the balance, the efficiency, the Omanra touchdown pass to golf in the red zone, the aggressiveness that sometimes backfires. You know, the safety, aggressiveness backfiring, the corners getting flagged as much as they did, aggressiveness backfiring. But that's who Dan Campbell wants to be.

That's what he wants the MO of this, the culture of this team to be. And I think he believes they stay on this track. It's going to result in a Super Bowl. and he might be right. It won't all be perfect, but as long as they're preaching what they are doing on offense and staying aggressive on defense,

it's a nice mix that I think it's entertaining football and it's also winning football. So it's a good combination. The model, the play style, everything on both sides of the ball, I think is the version of the Lions you wanted to see coming into the season. It took like seven starters being out on the Seahawks defense

for us to see that, but I still was very encouraged by just what they were trying to do offensively. The running game, the play action game. Even the trick plays, like, last year when they were rolling, it seemed like every single time they had a blowout win or they put up 40, they had a big touchdown on a trick play or some sort of shot play. So the fact that they had another one yesterday, I think is perfect.

But the things that stuck out to me early in the game, you mentioned the 12 personnel stuff. When this offense is clicking, every single person is chipping in. And last night, the two guys that stuck out to me, Tim Patrick and Brock Wright as blockers. when they were trying to run the ball. And that's what feels so cool about this offense is that it's such a unit that is moving in unison. Everyone is chipping in doing their part. Everyone is bringing a certain level of physicality.

And I think, again, you contrast that to something like the Dolphins. And that's why this team is able to do whatever it wants on its own terms because they have 11 guys willing to play that way. It didn't really matter that Ragnow was out yesterday. The backup left guard had his moments at the point of attack and when they were trying to establish themselves on the ground. So I love watching what they were doing, and I thought that golf played a really, really, really good game.

Obviously, the box score tells you that, but this was him at his best. They're just taking ripped play action shots over the middle. And I thought the underrated part of his game last night is the subtle pocket movement, I thought was phenomenal. Him just buying himself, you know, a few feet to the left, a few feet to the right, feeling pressure, sliding. He had that spin around 360 completion of Jameson Williams at one point.

That's when you know things are going well. But I thought that this, That game was a perfect expression of what the Lions can do it their best. Whether they can continue to do it against teams that don't have four or five starters out among their front seven, that'll be a question. But I think it was a step in the right direction for sure. Well, and you know the moment they decided to receive and not kick to start that game, you knew they were feeling it. Like, we want to establish what we are on offense. And that's going to dictate this game.

And then on defense, according to PFF, The Lions finished with 37 pressures in this game. 37. And Aiden Hutchinson had 15 alone. I mean, Jack Campbell showed up with a few big plays. That forced fumble was great. So heating up the pocket. And even when they did, I thought Gino played an outstanding game.

But he was under pressure most of the night. And so I think you look at the trenches, offense and defense, that was kind of the difference in this game overall, even though some of the other skill players, they made plays. But the trenches, that's really what, in. fluence the final score. It absolutely was. And I think that we know that the Seahawks Offensive line is in a pretty bad spot right now. They got a third string right tackle out there. They have questions at both guard spots. Gino was running for his life. And I think especially in the

first half, Ryan Grub and that staff did not do, did not do a very good job of helping him that way. I mean, they ran the ball five times in the first half. And too often over the course of those first two quarters, it felt like the 2023 Seahawks offense where you're asking Gino to just make crazy throws outside of the numbers into key. holes to D.K. MacKaff and you're trying to live in that world. And the volatility in the variance there is just not in your favor. I thought in the second half, they did a much better job of allowing the quarterback to take some plays off. They ran the ball pretty efficiently against a very good Lions rush defense. There was some more play action. There was some gimmies as part of

the overall equation. You still have to ask him to be a superhero on third and eight. And there was a lot of those last night because you can't hold up in those situations. And I think he's playing extremely good football. But I think the version of the Lions off or the Seahawks offense that we saw in the second half that was a little bit more balanced again that was just putting less of a burden on the quarterback overall. That's the version of the Seahawks that I want to see moving forward. Yeah.

In the first half, you're exactly right. In the first half, it took that that lateral from Injigba to get a first down on a third and long. Like it just felt like... It was 13 again. I mean, the amount of third and eights they had last night was ridiculous. Right. But it felt like in the second half, the office.

offensive line held up better. They were doing just enough to give Gino time to, and he had his own fair share of these little twists and turns and being able to buy extra time and he did whatever he could. He is so, so slippery back there. His feel and sense of how to navigate that space is so pronounced right now. I just, I pray I can age as well as Gino Smith has. It's been really fun to watch. And just a quick aside, I feel, I feel vindicated because, okay, back in 2012, I'm working at CBS Sports as their draft guy.

And he had me doing a mock draft every week during the season. It's absolutely terrible. And that was the draft. 2012 internet was fucking wild, man. Yes. So that was the 2013 draft. So that was, you know, E.J. Manuel had fourth round tape. Matt Barclay wasn't the guy he was billed to be.

but there was something about this Gino at West Virginia who had some traits that were to translate. So I put him at number one in a mock draft in October and I remember getting killed for it. Even to this day, I still get tweets reminding me about it. But I tell you what, he is playing at how you would want a first round quarterback to play. He has aged really well. And it's just a, I mean, it's been so much fun to watch him get better as, you know, his journey has taken him from back up here, here and near. or two, all of a sudden, we're talking about extension and then, okay, he gets that extension. Now he's even playing better than that.

So he did not deserve maybe the final score compared to how he played last night. It's going to be interesting to say. And this is we're going to way ahead of ourselves here. But how they end up approaching the team building process over the next year as I think they've landed on him as a guy. Okay. So now if we know that Gino is going to be the answer quarterback for at least the next two to three seasons.

And are you going to next off season? Can we upgrade at one of the guard spots? Can we get to a point where maybe Christian Haynes can step into the starting lineup? You need to add one interior piece next year. Maybe you figure out the right tackle situation because we're worried about Abe Lucas's long-term health. You already have the past catchers in place. I think you're pretty close to where you'd want to be as an offense. And then on defense, they piece this thing together.

And when you got one year, you got short-term deals for the Dotsons and the Jerome Baker's and, you know, guys like that. And I think that we saw outside of the injuries, the fact that you know, fact that that personnel wise, that defense still probably has a couple more steps that it needs to take. But I think overall, the foundation of what the Seahawks defense or Seahawks team feels like on both sides of the ball, I feel good about it right now. I think that we're just seeing some of the gaps. And when you're playing a team, it's one of those things. You feel like a decent team until you play one of the contenders in the NFL. And then you saw the gap between both of those yesterday while also acknowledging the fact that the Seahawks are pretty beat up.

Yeah. And you know, you're very optimistic about a Byron Murphy. your first round pick. Obviously, he didn't play last night. I think you saw some nice things from the fourth round rookie, the linebacker night who was flying around out there. But still, he's a fourth round rookie. So there's going against that team. I mean, there's some moments,

but it's like he's not ready. And that's the problem when you're having to play seven backups or whatever they were having to play. Right. So you can, I think, feel optimistic for what you're building towards. But, you know, right now in the moment, it's tough. And I think you're right. you know, the way they structured that extension for Gino,

it put them in a spot to where going into this draft, they could look at a quarterback if they wanted to in the first round. But, you know, I mean, Gino, he turns 34 here in a week. So it's not like he's totally at the end. It's still, to your point, it feels like he has two or three more years left to play at this high of a level. So it kind of resets the way that you want to build this thing. And so it does maybe open up your options to, okay, what's the best way?

We need to do something on defense. We want to build the offensive line. It's just they need to attack and allocate their resources in a very specific way to make sure they're maximizing what they can be. Yeah. And I also just think that overall, again, that formula in the second half where it's a little bit more play action, a little bit more running the ball. If you look at it, they have their number one, a neutral situation pass rate in the NFL right now. I know that's tempting when you have a quarterback that's playing like this. At the same time, though, you need to find little ways to make things a little bit easier on him and help.

yourself in protection. If you're going to be in these wide open 11 personnel sets and just dropping back 50 times a game, that's only making things harder on an offensive line that's already struggling. And Ryan Grubb is very new with this. This is game four. They're trying to figure it out. And he's trying to lean on a quarterback that's playing about as well as like four or five guys in a league right now. So I get it. But I still think that this is a learning process. And I still think that they're trying to figure out exactly the best ways. Like what buttons do we need to press to make sure we're getting the most out of our players. And I think, again, that's going to be a process that they're going to go through over the course of this season.

All right, we're going to hit our first break here. And then we're going to come back and talk about Dane's initial big board from August and just what the draft landscape looks like overall. All right, Dan, let's dig into this. I want to just get, I want to start this by chatting about the overall outlook you have for the 2025 draft class. As somebody who is coming to this with like virtually zero knowledge, and that's not an exaggeration, That play that Ryan Williams made on Saturday, I found out that Ryan Williams existed when he made that play. That's how I'm coming to this discussion. So lay out what this class feels like to you maybe compared to some of the other recent ones that we've been looking at.

So, yeah, I talked a lot about this over the summer as I really dove into this class. I got through all the offensive positions and it was kind of like, this is it? I was just really underwhelmed with the talent at those positions. There's some dudes in there, no doubt, but I wasn't blown away. I think this is a really good running back class. It's a really good tight end class. But, you know, we're talking about maybe one or two first rounders from those two positions. The rest are going to be really good second, third rounders.

But it wasn't until the defensive side where, okay, you've got me back in. Now I'm excited because there are a lot of really good defensive players in this draft. But the thing is, it's just not a very top. heavy class. And part of that is the quarterbacks. There's a lot to work through with the quarterbacks. But even the no doubt about it, this is a, doesn't matter to the draft class. This would be a first round guy. There just aren't many of those guys. You know, we have Travis Hunter from Colorado, the two-way guy. Will Johnson, the corner from Michigan was my number one on the preseason top 50. He's played well. But even in most years, you don't think of him as maybe being a number one

overall pick type of player. His teammate at Michigan, a defense to tackle, Mason Graham, same type of thing. There's two receivers that I think are in that top 10 mix with Luther Burden from Missouri, then McMillan from Arizona. Both could be top 10 guys, but again, I don't know that you're looking at the past top 10 and saying, okay, this would be a, these would be top 10 players in any draft. So, and then there, I think there's a bit of a drop off until wide receiver three. You know, we know that's a position that teams are going to draft early. They want guys that can help score points. I'm not sure who that wide receiver three is at this point.

There's a couple of guys that are in that mix, but it's a wide open group at this point. So it's a draft where struggling, finding the true blue chip guys at the top, but I do like the depth that we're seeing second, third round that might get a little bit overdrafted just out of necessity. Outside of the quarterbacks, which positions do you think are the weakest?

Like if you're looking for X in this draft, you're probably going to be disappointed. Linebackers always kind of, you know, we didn't see a linebacker drafted until, what, Edron Cooper in the 40s this past year. Linebacker, again, is another class. There's another group this year that it's just, it's hard to feel really excited about him. One of the top guys, Harold Perkins from LSU, undersized, but he was going to run on the four-threes. He tore his ACL, so who knows if he's going to even declared this year.

And, you know, the talent behind him is okay. So linebacker's not great. You know, I think that on offense, again, going back to the offensive line, tackle is going to be really interesting because you have a group. There's some tackles on the board that you like, but are they going to play tackle in the NFL? You know, Will Campbell from LSU, Kelvin Banks, Texas. These guys are good tackles at the college level. But anytime I talk with a scout about these guys, it's like, well, okay, well, kind of like a McGregor.

guard better. Same thing. The kid at Minnesota, left tackle, but like a Metsgarde better. So I don't think this is going to, this might not end up being a great class for offensive tackles. Might end up being pretty good for offensive guards just because there are some really quality players. But offensive tackle, I think teams are really traits hunting. You know, they're looking at, you know, like for a perfect example, Kelvin Banks, the left tackle from Texas. He gets all the attention. But the right tackle Williams, Big Cam Williams, Williams, he might actually be the higher drafted player because of his traits. He's 335 pounds, first year starter.

He doesn't have nearly the, he's not nearly the finished product that Kelvin Banks is on the left side. But it wouldn't be surprised if the right tackle is drafted earlier because of the traits. And I think that's what we're going to see a lot of teams do at offensive tackle, hunt for those traits and see if we can develop those guys. Yeah, at least last year we had those three or four guys go early that did feel like they were closer to finish products, right? You got your alts, your latims, your Foshanus, and then you got into the project. So Fulaga, and then a little bit later in the first round, that's when you got into the more projecty types with Mims and Gaiton. It feels like we'd be getting to the project types a little bit quicker in this class compared to what the 2024 class looked like. What about strengths overall?

And you mentioned there's a couple of defensive players at the top. If you're looking for which position in this draft as a fan, are you going to be pretty happy with what's available? Yeah, I love the corners in this draft. like I mentioned Will Johnson at the top. I mean, we got to talk about Travis Hunter, right? Colorado, two-way player. He just, he looks like he's moving at a different speed. And I mean that both athletically with the way he's moving, but also mentally.

I mean, he has outstanding football IQ. There's no thinking with what he's doing. It's just reacting. And I don't think this guy gets enough credit for what he's doing playing both ways as a receiver and cornerback. it's not only just the stamina to play both ways, but think about the commitment, the focus, how smart you have to be to handle both those responsibilities. You're in meetings on the offensive side.

You have to meet with the defensive coaches. You have to know the whole playbook. I play some special teams as well. So yeah, you have to be a super athlete, but then also just super committed because of how taxing it is to play both sides. And so it'll be really fascinating with Travis Hunter, just how teams, you know,

what position he's going to play, it seems like a long shot that he's going to be able to play both ways. It just doesn't seem feasible. You know, he's not the biggest guy. He's about 185 pounds. And you just think about the toll on your body trying to do that. And, you know, I think the first thing that teams will have to do with him is ask him straight up, like, what position do you want to play? You know, because I think you need that answer before you actually draft him in the top 10.

And if he wants to be a wide receiver, I would understand, you know, that look at some of the contracts these receivers are getting. guys want the ball in their hands, but if I'm a team, I want him a corner. It's just harder to find those guys. And your pitch to him is, hey, you're a full-time corner, and we'll mix in 15 snaps for you a game on offense, try to get you involved. If anybody can do it, it's this kid. And so it's going to be really interesting. He was number three overall on my preseason top 50, and it would not be shocking at all if wins the Heisman, and he is the first non-quarterback drafted this year. if he was solely a receiver, where would you take him?

He'd be in the top 10. I mean, he would be... Oh, really? He's that good of a receiver in your mind. He's that good of an athlete, and he has that. And the ball skills are that phenomenal. So as a route runner, still working on some things. The body type's not ideal. You're thinking, think about more like a Garrett Wilson type in terms of the size, the way he moves,

not as polished as Wilson was coming out of Ohio State, but that style of player. his focus full time to receiver, you assume some of that polish could come. And that's why you're still taking them top 10. Because the athlete that he is and the ball skills are just that outstanding. So, yeah, he is, but it'll be interesting to see how teams view him and how badly does he want to play both ways. That's something that's really important to him. But, I mean, he's playing over 130 snaps a game in college. And it's like, and he's doing at a high level.

That's why he should win the highsman because of what he's doing, even though Colorado's a 500 team. he is he just looks different out there with the way he's moving and the way he processes everything like I said it's not necessarily thinking it's just reacting and he does it at a high level so it'll be interesting difference with guys when he's playing it's like a cover two corner and understanding like when to come off of things and it's just like the space the spatial awareness that he plays that position with and this clips that I've seen is remarkable so do you think he's a stronger corner right now than he is a receiver I do and I think he has the mindset for defense. And then not only that, but it's just like I said, it's harder to find those guys on

defense at corner, the guys that have that level of athleticism, but also the level of understanding, like you said, the spatial awareness. His interception against UCF on Saturday was a perfect example of that where he's, he's in zone. He knows that, you know, he's going to carry that vertical route, but he knows he's responsible for the flat zone. And he's able to bait the quarterback enough, a veteran quarterback, who's been around a long time, but he's able to move off that enough, but he understands he can make up that ground. And it just, it creates a lot of doubt in the mind of quarterbacks. And I mean, I don't, why you're even throwing in the direction of Travis Hunter, I don't know. Just stop doing it. But, you know, it's, it's been a lot of fun to watch. So

corner definitely led by Will Johnson, Travis Hunter. It's a real bummer. The East Carolina kid, Reville, senior, he tore his ACL. He's out as well. So again, another ding to this draft class, when a first, he was going to go top 20. He's now, you know, we'll see where, if he's a second rounder now, who knows, but he's coming back from an ACL, running back to the other position I wanted to mention with how. I was going to ask you about the Boise State guy.

He seemed like he was the other one that you were really intrigued by. Oh, my gosh. You know in baseball, like how when a pitcher comes off the mound and the unpast to check him for any foreign substances, the refs might need to start doing that with Boise games. check his jersey for baby oil or something because that would make more sense than how he's able to break all these tackles.

So Ashton Jenty, Boise State, he came into the year as running back one clear for me. He was like 25th overall. He's playing like a guy that wants to go top 20, top 10. The game on Saturday night against Washington State, I have never watched a running back tape that had as many broken tackles as what Genti did to that defense.

Some of it bad tackling, yes. But when you do it over and over again, it's more about the player. And he's done it every game this year. He did it against Oregon, the best opponent he'll play all year. You know, it's, I clipped the five best plays from that game

and put it on Twitter. And it blew people's minds. It's really a phenomenal thing to watch. It looked like Barry Sanders highlights on a blue field. And I understand how hyperbolic that sounds. But that's how it looked. He's just, he's so dang strong. The contact balance is elite.

His reactionary reads are special. I mean, he doesn't predetermine where he's going. He reads, he makes these sudden changes. There were teams in the SEC and some other leagues who offered him a lot of money, almost a million dollars to transfer this past off season. Not, I should say, not those schools, but NIL collectives representing those schools. And he turned it down. stayed. I mean, he still, Boise State,

the, their NIL really opened the pocketbook for him, but he left money on the table by staying put. The comparison I keep coming back to is Ladeney and Tomlinson, uh, because of how well he, I know, I know. I'm just, I'm setting this kid up for failure with this. Barry Sanders, L.C.

I think this is important because you're not prone to this, right? Like, I think more than anything, you're wired to temper your expectations with players and try to pull back some of this stuff. So I want people to know that this is not something that you're quick to do with guys for the most part. Well, in my running back preview in July, I wrote how this, I've watched over a thousand guys this summer and he was one of the top five favorite that I watched because, again, his ability to break

tackles, it's something that's pretty rare. And one of the reasons I make that LT comparison is how well he catches the ball out of the backfield. I mean, he is a natural pass catcher. And that's part of what makes him special. I think some of the, you know, I was a little worried. worried about just how fast was he there sometimes where pursuit catches up to him. He's gotten over 21 miles per hour this year on the field. He's 5'8 and change. And so it's okay, is, you know, can of running back that short really go that high? I think that's what makes him so good because he's built so low to the ground that he's able to hide behind blocks and break these tackles because of that natural leverage.

He's listed in 215. How big do you think he actually is? This summer, he was like 220. That's what scouts. Yeah, they measured him this spring, and he was 5082, so 58 and a quarter, 217. So, yeah, right there around that mix. He'll be right there around 220. He is a strong, strong kid. And, you know, he was not highly recruited because he didn't become a full-time starter from Frisco, Texas, but had just moved there.

So he was still getting, he played a little alone with Marvin Mims and a bunch of future NFL guys. But he is a really electric talent who, if he were in the draft with Bijan and Jemir Gibbs, I think it would be really fascinating to see just where he would have gone. I think some teams would have had him as running back one. Some teams might have had him as running back three. I think it just was kind of pick what you want,

but he still would have gone very, very high in that draft. And in this draft, I mean, it's going to be hard to keep him out of, like when I do my next big board update, it's going to be hard to keep him out of the top 10. It's hard to say he's not one of the 10 best players in this draft. Let's talk about the quarterbacks a little bit before we move on to the categories today. I wanted to just get some context about this class overall. Carson back is your top quarterback, I think still probably, right?

He was in your preseason Big Board top 10. So that response, I think, says a lot. So if you're trying to place this quarterback class in context with like the last five or so, is this similar to like the Kenny Pickett class? Is it better than that? Is it worse? Explain this to me like I don't know anything because I don't. Last year's class, it felt like a stronger quarterback class because at least we knew, okay,

Caleb Williams is going to go at the top, one or two. Drake May is going to go somewhere at the top. And then Jane Daniels revealed himself. And we still, I mean, JJ McCarthy was a first rounder for me all the way through. I mean, we felt more comfortable about these guys are going to go. This year, there's talent there. There's more talent at the top. than the Kenny Pickett year.

It's just a matter of, okay, would you take one of these guys number one overall? How many of them would you feel comfortable taking top 10? It's just a harder group of quarterbacks to really commit yourself to. You know, Carson Beck, he was a first year starter last year at Georgia, got better every single game. And so there's a lot of things that you can latch on to and say, okay, this will work at the next level.

He can be a, I don't know, poor man's Matt Ryan type of player. But against, if you watch that game Saturday night, George Alabama, and you knew nothing else, you would come away saying, okay, Jalen Milro, first round pick, the Alabama quarterback. Carson Beck, the Georgia quarterback, maybe a third rounder at best. I mean, it just, but that's not how this works, obviously. It's about body of work. And so, but the big games matter. How do you take away from what he put on film in that game and put it in the context? You know, Beck, part of the reason why he went back to school is because of that loss last year in the SEC championship game to Alabama.

and how he wanted to avenge that. Well, he played the worst game of his career against Alabama and Tuscaloosa Saturday night. And it was a lot of bad decisions, a lot of, okay, I understand in the second half, they came, they were coming back a little bit. They made it a game. But he was still throwing a lot of 50-50 balls

that his guys were able to come down with. It wasn't necessarily from an evaluation standpoint that impressive of a game. So when teams look at quarterbacks, they want to know, okay, what's your distinguishing trait? You know, even a guy like Anthony Richardson, who had such a small sample size, all right,

we know your distinguishing trait is you're just a freak athlete with a rocket arm and, you know, a smart guy that we feel like we can mold. With Carson Beck, he's more average across the board. And it's like, okay,

does he have that true distinguishing trait where, you know, he, on Saturday night, it felt like he was a, he was missing that Brock Bowers cheat code, you know,

against Big Bad Alabama. And that was very evident. And I think that was the lasting takeaway for teams. and so I don't Carson Beck and I don't he's not a lock first round pick put it that way. He's going to be in the mix for some of these teams as being at the top of their board, but some teams are going to have them in the third or fourth round because of what he put on film in the big game like that. So Carson Beck is tough.

I mean, then you also have guys like Quinn Ewers who played really well against Michigan earlier this year, but he's missed time each of the last two years. That doesn't have the biggest frame. You know, there's some things about his game that, teams get hung up on. So how does Quinn Ewers and Texas, who they'll be in the college football playoff all the way at least till the quarterfinals,

maybe till the end. So we'll get a chance to see Quinn Ewers, how he performs in some of these big games. Cam Ward from Miami, another one who could he be this year's Jaden Daniels go from a third or fourth round pick? I was going to ask if there's somebody that maybe is surprising some people and making themselves some money over the course of this season so far. Cam Ward,

I think you have to mention his name, even though I'm still not all the way there. just because there's holding you back. There's too many turnover worthy plays. And that was his undoing at Washington State the past two years. And watching him Thursday night or it was a Friday night against Virginia Tech where he just, he's putting the ball in harm's way too many times. And sometimes it works out.

But in the NFL, and this is a guy, he's a fifth year senior, but he needs reps. He was a quarterback of a wingtie offense in high school. Then he went into incarnate word FCS, big air raid scheme. Washington State. a lot of those air raid principles. Now at Miami for his final year, he's in a different offense and he's doing some different things. And it's good to see from an evaluation perspective,

but he still needs a lot of reps. And in the NFL, teams don't, and they're not going to have patience with you to get those reps if you're turning the ball over. And that's kind of my hang up with Cam Ward. Now, we've got the rest of the season to go. If he can show improvement in those areas against a relatively soft ACC schedule, I think that he'll be,

he'll be able to make believers, from some teams that, hey, I can be your guy. So I just think that, you know, there's never a consensus on quarterbacks and they're from team to team and there won't be this year. Some teams will, you know, like what they see from Cam Ward. Some won't. And then, of course, Shadir Sanders.

You know, he's an accurate guy. He's the poise and toughness really stand out. I mean, he will stand in the pocket, make throws, be patient to allow routes to develop. But, you know, there's, you know, he's not the. biggest guy. This spring, he was 6-1-198 pounds. He's probably about 210 now, but size is not a strength that he doesn't stand out. Arm is more B-plus than A. Does he, and then, of course, the interview process. That's really what's going to make or break Shudur Sander's in this

evaluation period. You can't, I mean, he's, he's thrown his offensive line under the bus. He's made some comments before that are just, if you're a team and you're looking into a vest of first-round picking a guy, Shudor Sanders is a guy that you're just, you're on the fence about. You're just, you're, it's kind of buyer beware. And it might turn out to be a worthwhile investment or in,

when things go south in the NFL, and he lead a locker room full of NFL vets that are, you know, finger pointing is not going to, it's not going to work. And Dion's already come out and said that they're going to work the draft to get him to Goodwill team that's in a good situation. So it's like,

okay, how much is Dion going to be a factor in this? So, Shudor Sanders, the term baggage was created for Shadur. And that's not necessarily something you want to hear, but it could end up working out. And so that's what part of what makes this quarterback conversation so fascinating. The last thing I'll ask you just because I'm curious about it, in this new world where we have guys that are at one school for two years,

and then there are another school for a year, and then there's another school for a year. Do you feel like it's made it easier or harder for you to evaluate them? Because I think you can make an argument on both sides, right? Like there's so much volatility to this and there's so many changing variables. but at the same time, you're able to see guys in multiple different contexts. So there's a chance that you actually get a clearer picture of who somebody is. Like, what layers has that added to the evaluation process in your mind? Well, I just look in last year's first round for kind of the best case scenario of, you know,

you look at obviously Jane Daniels, the shining example of a bad situation of Arizona State. And then you go to LSU and it's just the sun is out, you know, it's just this is the best. This is a team that's making, helping me become the best. case of who I am, both with the coaching and the talent around you. Bo Nix, there was a little bit of that going from Auburn to Oregon. Michael Pennix going from Indiana to Washington. And Caleb, I mean, he had a good situation in Oklahoma. He was just following his head coach.

But the point is, seeing these guys in these different situations, maybe making the decision that's best for them, it does, you know, because all along, you want to see, you know, Shadur Sanders, what would he look like if he were running George's offense, you know, where he was getting protection. He was, there was better talent around him. That's, instead of wondering how that would look, you know, as we go through the evaluation process, we know the answer for some of these other guys. We know, okay, what if Cam Ward?

What if he was at a legit school like Miami who has a decent offensive line? They have three guys that will get drafted at wide receiver. Another one at tight end who will get drafted this year. So all of a sudden, it's like, okay, we feel like we can more or better. We don't just forget. what happened at Washington State, but you added into the context of this better situation and say, okay, because we know, quarterback is a dependent position. You can't do it all yourself. You need infrastructure around you, and he has a better situation at Miami. So I do think it helps in the

evaluation period, although, you know, it's just, you have to take everything in context. But it does help, I think, at an extra level of, you know, trying to figure out who this guy is. It seems like keeping track of where everybody is It's its own challenge that you're having to deal with right now All right, we're going to take one more quick break And then we're going to get back with the ball and over And further review, a little category as we do in the midweek show here. Let's get this off with upon further review.

This is a segment that we're doing where we're really just revisiting something On Monday and early Tuesday that happened this weekend, but maybe you didn't get to pay enough attention to. So you're the guest here. We'll let you kick this off. What's something that you've been chewing on over the last day or so? Going back to the college game, that game, Georgia, Alabama, and a big game like that, there's so many things you're trying to focus on that you can't really focus on one thing.

And I think focusing on Jalen Milrow, the Alabama quarterback, and I wrote last week how there were some parallels between him and Jalen Hertz. And the last line of the article was he, if he continues at this pace, he's going to put himself in the quarterback one conversation. how he performed against that Georgia defense and what he did against Kirby Smart Squad. He is in the quarterback one conversation flat out. He has a chance to be the first guy drafted at that position. But going back to that, you know, Jalen Hertz comparison, I called him a rocket-fueled version because, you know, you look at them. They're both 6-1, 225, thick guys. They, you know, it doesn't always look maybe aesthetically pleasing with their release and their setup and some of the mechanics.

He might never be a quote unquote traditional passer, but he still has a rocket arm and he is a 4-4 athlete. That's the biggest difference between him and Jalen Hurts is he actually has track speed. You look at who was on the field, Georgia, Alabama, all the future pros on that field, he looked like the fastest guy out there. He just moved at a different speed. And then you throw on the tape against Wisconsin last week. He's making these beautiful downfield throws with pace, perfect placement.

So he has that downfield game. Now, does he need to get better intermediate parts of the game? No question about it. I mean, he does some nice thing at that nice wheel route against Georgia that really stood out. And then also off the field. I mean, there's the Hertz comparison because these guys are tireless workers. The character feedback I get from Tuscaloosa is big time. But going back to that George Alabama game, I thought Millro did just an outstanding job of just taking what the defense gave him.

And I think that's the biggest difference between Milro that we saw against Michigan. in the Rose Bowl last year, compared to the Milro we're seeing this year and Kaelin DeBore's offense, who obviously coming over from Washington, who worked with Michael Pennix the last few years, he just looked so much more comfortable reading out and understanding where to attack. You know, this is covered, this is covered. Okay, I'm going to hit my tight end in the flat. And it just felt like a big improvement from last year where things were still moving a little bit too fast for him as a passer. And then his ability to beat the pass rush with his legs is exceptional. I mean, he did it time and time again against Georgia. So again, still a work in

progress in some areas. And honestly, he might always be a work in progress in some areas. But like we've seen, teams are more more willing than ever to think outside the box. And you look at an Anthony Richardson who, the small sample size he had, Jalen Milrow has done infinitely more on the field in college than Anthony Richardson has and has had it done it at a high level. Plus has a lot of those just superhero physical traits that Richardson has. And he looks more comfortable from the pocket. So it's going to be really interesting how much this tape in particular against Georgia elevates him throughout the process.

I know you wrote in that piece and you were comparing him to Hertz. And you said that intermediate passing is something he can probably continue to work on, but then over the middle passing as well, like throwing the ball into more trafficked areas because we can see him push the ball outside of the numbers the same way we could with Jalen Hertz. So you think that intermediate area and just the willingness to push the ball to the middle of the field, they're probably the two boxes you still need to see checked a little bit more. Yeah, and the checkdown is always going to be there for him and the ability to take off and run,

but understanding when to take those chances, understanding how to use his eyes. He will stare down his reeds at time, but understanding, okay, if I let my eyes linger a little bit over here, this route's going to come open over here. I mean, just these little things that the art of playing quarterback that he needs, to get better at. And, you know, he could absolutely get there this season. We'll see how he develops. But it's one of those things that maybe it doesn't happen until year two of the NFL, like with Jalen Hertz, who, you know, he, when he went to the NFL, he was still, and there's a reason he was a second round pick. And the Eagles barely drafted him. It was, it was him or somebody else. I mean, there were all these factors in play. So with, with Milrow, I think more teams will be excitable about adding him to the mix and what they could do with him. But he is still not, not. a finish product of some of the ways that he plays the game. What I wanted to dig into here for mine was just going back and rewatching that Chiefs Chargers

game because obviously the Chief's offense is struggling. And I wanted to watch it for two reasons. One, what's going on with Kansas City's offense? But two, you know the Chargers are number one in the NFL and defensive success rate through four games? Wow. Number one. The Los Angeles Chargers.

And so I do want to start with just some Chargers acknowledgement and appreciation. Going back and watching that game, there are two guys that really jumped out to me that maybe I wasn't necessarily expecting. Otito Ogbonia, who is a rotational interior defensive lineman for them. He was a fifth round pick in 2022. I was very impressed with him in this game. And he was really pushing the pocket consistently against the interior of that chief's defensive line. So he really jumped out to me. And then the other guy who I was just like, okay, I like what this guy's bringing to the table was Deion Henley.

because I like the matchups they have and kind of the skill sets they have at those off ball linebacker spots. They have Junior Colson's banged up right now so he's not playing, but they have Denzel Perriman and Henley. Paramund's kind of that in the box thumper, run stuff run early downs like that's what Denzel Perriman is.

And Henley has great range. I mean, they're having him mugged up at the line and scrimandging completely bailing out and he's able to cover a ton of ground. So what he's able to give them from just an athleticism perspective and then what Ogbonia was given, them, which is an ability to really crush the pocket consistently.

You combine that with the other guys who we already know. Clil Mack had his moments in this game. Joey Bosa didn't even play. So I liked what I saw personnel-wise, but also I just, this team clearly just is really buttoned up defensively. I mean, you watched Jesse Minter and what he was doing with Michigan's defense all of last year. And there was a play at one point in the first half where chiefs go in motion,

Chargers send a guy. So the chiefs are just saying, all right, it's third and whatever. We know it's man. Archer's bailout in his own. Mahomes has to hold it for an extra half second. Pass rush gets home. And so you just see some of the buttons that Minter is pressing right now putting these guys in really good situation.

So I do think the Chief's offense is struggling, and we can get into some of the reasons why. But I've actually been really impressed by what Minter is putting on the field and what they're getting from some of these younger, complementary pieces that they've drafted over the last couple years. Well, and the thing you loved about Henley coming out of college was he'd only been playing the position for like two years. he was a wide receiver at Nevada,

then they moved him to safety, and then they moved into linebacker. And then he transferred to Washington State for his final year, but he put up the production. He was triple digits and tackles. The backfield numbers, tackles for loss were big.

So he was an ascending run and chase guy. You see the range, you see the quickness, the ability to key and close, and he did it at a high level. And so he was a fun player to watch. And so, yeah, it is fun to see him be with a defense.

offensive coordinator that understands that and just kind of let them loose. And there was a play of then the third drive is third down where he's mugged up. And because he's mugged up, the chiefs keep the back in protection. He bails out and then they get home for a sack. And there's another one where they check the ball down into the flat on like a third and short. And he gets all the way from the middle of the field to the flat to make a tackle for like a two-yard gain and forces them to punt. So the fact that they have that sort of athleticism combined with the physicality they're getting from some other guys,

it's a really nice combination. I really like a lot of the things that they're doing. On the flip side here, the Chief's offense just looks completely out of sorts right now. They can run the ball whenever they want to because of the boxes that they're getting. On that final field goal drive, they go down and win the game,

they're just running ball for like five, six yards of pop and then using play action as a way to get one chunk. But the play action chunk they got, I think it was to Noah Gray on that final drive. I think it's very telling. They had to keep an extra tight end in protection and use that in order to push the ball down the field. Because right now, when they're just dropping back to pass,

the offensive line is not playing at the level we're typically used to seeing. And this goes all the way across the board. Obviously, they put Wanya Morrison at left tackle. There's still issues at less tackle and pass protection. Joe Tune was getting walked back into the quarterback multiple times in this game. Trey Smith had the same thing happened to him on multiple high leverage plays. John Taylor gets things for a sack, a false start.

He's not necessarily playing at a high level. And I think some of the issues with just the reliability and trust and pass protection, Mahomes is bailing from pockets consistently. Some of that is penetration. Some of that is some of the stunts in the games that the charges were using were giving him outlets, especially to his right, and he was just trying to find space when he could. But you can tell right now that he just doesn't feel settled whatsoever. There is unnecessary and consistent movement from him on almost any single.

dropback that they have. And I think it's really short-circuiting their ability to play on time. I'm not putting that all on him because I do think the offensive line is contributing to some of that. But they just look completely out of sorts whenever they want to throw the ball. Yeah. And obviously, I think the planet left tackle, maybe not going the way they had hoped. Obviously, you don't prepare for Rashi, Rice, injury like that.

So there are some factors here that play into that. But it's still, just the fact that they're finding ways to still win games. I think speaks to Mahomes being Mahomes and Andy Reid being Andy Reid. But yeah, it's something that when you get to the playoffs and it gets harder to win those games, you know, this, but this is, you know, the chiefs are going to mess around in September,

October, and then figure things out in November, December, and then going to the playoffs. It feels like that's how they've, you know, they've done it in that in the past. And it feels like that's how it's going to play out this year. It seems like they need another intermediate pass-catching option after losing Rice. Like I just don't know how they're going to go

through the rest of the season with Justin Watson, Xavier worthy, Skymore, and Juju Smith-Schuster as their receivers, especially if Kelsey isn't going to be playing at a super high level. Because, I mean, there are multiple high leverage third and short plays where they're trying to throw the ball to Sky Moore in this game because it seems like he's their best option. And I just don't think that that's feasible over the course of the year. So I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were making some phone calls right now to try to sort some things out.

I know they've stood Pat in the past, but there's no Rishi Rice coming through that door. Like even if you think you can get a little bit more from Xavier Worthy, the difference in skill sets. And the whole point of Worthy and Hollywood Brown to an extent was, if we add more juice to this offense, is it going to create more space for our underneath options? Well, now you have one underneath option that you can rely on in Kelsey.

So the overall equation of how it was all supposed to fit together no longer really applies. So I think that they have to really consider going out and doing some, something in order to make all the pieces fit. All right. Let's get to our last one here. We're calling this the ball knower. This is what we've done over the last few weeks. It's three questions, a series of three questions that I've been asking all of the guests.

The first one here is, what do you know that you know about, with you, it's a little bit different. I was going to say the NFL season, but this also applies to college. Four weeks into the year, five weeks into the college season, what is something that you know, you know about the football landscape right now? I'm going to keep this a rookie theme. So what I know I know is Malik Neighbors is already a top 10 wide receiver in the NFL. And I'm not saying like if you're starting a franchise and you're taking it into account, contract and age. And I'm not, I'm just saying if you had to win an NFL game right now today and you're building a team, Neighbors is one of the first 10 receivers you're drafting.

And it comes down to the space he can create, the explosive plays. And we saw this as a prospect. He had at least one catch of 20 plus yards. every game last year at LSU. He led the FBS in catches of 20 plus yards. And I remember talking about this on our live show during the draft last year. In most other draft classes, Malik Neighbors would have been the number one overall player. He just happened to be in a draft class with Caleb Williams and Marvin Harrison, Jr.

So he was number three for me. But to see what he's done with inconsistent quarterback play, man, it's impressive. And good call by you saying he's going to smash the rookie record for targets. Because as long as he stays healthy, I mean, he is going to blow. that out of the water. His target share right now. I look this up today when I was actually doing some research on a different player. He's getting 38% of the Giants targets right now.

So it just absolutely ridiculous to work with. And I'm honestly kind of worried about it. He's physically wearing down in ways we don't typically have to consider with receivers. And the two guys when I was mentioning this after Thursday night game last week, the people brought up were Calvin Johnson won in just those seasons where he was getting close to 200 targets. And then that 2021 Cooper Cup season. And I don't think it's necessarily causal.

And I think that the way that Cooper Cup plays, obviously, and what they've asked him to do within that offense is going to put more mileage on his body. But since that season where he got 191 targets, Cooper Cup has not been able to stay healthy. So I honestly think that there are workload concerns with Malik neighbors. And we don't typically have that conversation. Like, are we using our number one receiver too much is not a discussion we typically have about players? but I think that it actually might apply with him. What I'll ask you, from what you've seen of him in the NFL,

is this pretty much what you expected him to be as a player or are there details about what he has done or the ways they've used him that are maybe a little bit different than the vision you had for it? No, I mean, I would say this is pretty much how we saw it playing out because even though he's six foot, 200 pounds, he's not necessarily the biggest guy, but he wins at the catch point consistently.

His ability to... So strong. Oh, he really is. And he frames the football so well that it doesn't matter how you play him because, yeah, he can get open because he's the explosive athlete. You know, he has four three speeds, he's 42 inch vert. You know, he's naturally explosive, but he is so strong to the football. And you think about all the talented receivers that have gone through LSU. Nobody had more catches in a career or receiving yards in a career than this guy.

So he did it consistently from the day he showed up. And he's still, so he just turned 21 in July. I mean, he's still figuring out how good he can be. So whether it's after the catch, whether it's before the catch, he just consistently impresses. And so that's why we talked about him as maybe even going before Marvin Harrison Jr. That's why we talked about him as if you're the chargers and yeah, you need offensive line. Can you really pass on a talent like this like Malik neighbors? And that's why I think if you're the Giants, yeah, you wanted to trade up for a quarterback.

you checked out those options. But if you stayed at 6, I think you were okay because you knew the talent that Malik neighbors could be. Let's get to our next one here. What is something you think you know about the football landscape as we get to October here? So I think I know that the Rams have a really bad defense. But I think the rookies on their defensive line actually make them an interesting team to watch. The Rams ranked top 12 in the league in pressures this year. and Jared Verse and Brandon Fisk,

they're responsible for 43% of the defense's total pressures. They're the only two rookies in the league with at least a dozen pressures this year. And you go back to last weekend, you go back to draft weekend. You think about, you know, all the discussion about who's going to be the first Eddrushar drafted, Liatu Lattu, Dallas Turner, Jared Verst. Verse ended up being the third of the three drafted,

but I think the Rams are perfectly fine with how that play. it out. You see the natural power with him, the violence in his hands. That was always his MO at Florida State. And that's exactly what he's doing with the Rams. It just opens up options for him. The mistackles are a little bit of a concern when you watch him, but he's still creating those pressures. I mean, 17 pressures so far, that's more than Daniel Hunter. It's more than Trey Hendrickson. Against the Bears, he had 50% pass rush win rate, which is the tied Dexter Lawrence for the best in a single game this year so far. So, And then with Fisk, it was a move we were critical of on Draft Weekend because I used a...

It's an expensive move. Very expensive. And we were totally right. And I think I'm still not convinced that it was the right move to make. But at least he's performing on the field. He had the strip sack of Caleb Williams. He's second behind only verse in terms of rookie pressures this year, were 13. So even though it was an expensive move and still not 100% sure it was the right move to make,

at least he's performing up to a level that is allowing that defensive line to get pressure on the quarterback. My love for verse in the process, I think, was really indicative of how I've changed the way I think about defensive players and defensive linemen in the NFL specifically. I always used to have a real soft spot for the bendy guys, just at that level of flexibility and just guys who played that way. I just thought that that Von Miller skill set, even if toned down a little bit, is always what I really valued in edge rushers. And I just think that the floor for guys who are pocket crushers consistently, to play with that sort of power and violence is intriguing, even if the ceiling maybe isn't necessarily the same. And I think that versus the highest possible end of that sort of player,

because he's got enough tools in the bag and enough moves and versatility, and he strings them together well enough, where he becomes more than just a power player. But at the core of it, and I was actually going to tweet this out on Sunday when I was watching the game, and I couldn't find a downloadable version of the video. The Marshawn Lynch clip where he's like, if you just run through a motherfucker's face over and over and over again,

not a lot of people want to deal with that. And that's what Jared versus is a defensive lineman. He is going to be one of the least pleasant guys to play against four left tackles in the NFL for a long time. I can't imagine how unenjoyable it is to go out there and know you're going to have to drop back 35 or 40 times. And he is going to put his helmet in your chest every single time that your team is throwing the football. It is absolutely miserable to play against that dude.

Just listening to him for four quarters sounds miserable because this guy talks more trash than anybody out there. And he has this relentless energy that he's able to channel in the right way on the football field. And yeah, the power that he plays with through his frame is so, impressive and he just he runs over guys that are 120 pounds or 100 pounds heavier than he is. And literally the last line of his report for me was the physical traits, the competitive football temperament gives him an extremely high high floor as an NFL starter. And that's exactly what you're speaking to. You know, I don't know if he'll, you know, ever be a 12 sack a year guy.

Maybe he will, but he is going to make it very difficult as both a pass rusher and run defender to be successful when you're working to his side of the field. I think he has a chance to be a better version of Trey Hendrickson by the time we get to like next season. That's possible. And Trey Hendickson is like top five in pressures like almost every single year. So I really do think that we're talking about is seriously high ceiling for a guy like verse when we were mostly intrigued with the floor.

And he's already one of my favorite defense. It's been four games and I absolutely love watching that guy play. I didn't love watching him play on Sunday. because of what he was doing to Braxton Jones. But in games where he's not playing against the Bears, I'm very excited about continuing to watch Jared Verse. Last one here, and I know what your answer is going to be, and I cannot believe you're about to do this to me.

What is one thing you want to know about the football universe on October 1st? All right, so hear me out. Five years from now, will Ryan Poles be known as the GM who played his cards right, built a playoff team led by Caleb Williams, or will he be known as the GM who passed on two top five quarterbacks in the league with C.J. Stroud and Jane Daniels. And look, there's a lot to unpack here. I know. And I'm not trying to put a target on Poles's back because I think he played this how most of us would have, right? You let things play out with Justin Fields. You build up the roster. You ransom that number one overall pick in the 2023 draft. You trade back. You get DJ more. Then you draft Caleb Williams, number one. I would estimate what, 80, 85.

percent of GMs in a league would have followed that exact playbook. But at the end of the day, Poles number one objective is to get the quarterback right. And based on the first four games of the season, it feels like there's a higher chance now than most of us thought coming into the year that Daniels would be the better long-term quarterback. And obviously, C.J. Stroud already looks like a top five to seven quarterback in the league. And honestly, I framed it this way,

but it was another way of asking, can Daniels, Jaden Daniels, keep this. up. NFL best 82.1 completions and he's not patting his stats. He's number three in the league in yards per attempt. I mean, no quarterback is responsible for more first downs this year than Daniels. No quarterback has more scramble yards. And he has one turnover so far. So he's taking care of the football. And you also factor in the team success with this. Washington, they're the best team in the NFC East, both record and eye test. And three of their first four games were on the road. Okay, no problem. We'll average over 30 points a game. And it's funny how preseason,

we talked so much about the bears, you know, would this be the best situation a number one pick has ever gone to? It's actually been Washington. That's been the better environment for a top pick because with Chicago is all about the receivers, right? With Washington, it's been about the relationship with Cliff Kingsbury and what he's doing as a play caller. But then also the offensive line playing at a level above what we expected. So And I will say this too. This isn't to kill Caleb either because I think his four game sample size right now is very consistent with what should be expected of a rookie quarterback. Flashes of what made him the number one overall pick, but also clear examples of a player who is seeing NFL speed for the first time.

And especially behind an offensive line that's bottom third in the league. So this category, you know, it's not necessarily what I think or believe. It's what do I want to know. And I'm just very curious how we're going to judge these quarterbacks five years from now, especially from the perspective of the Bears and Ryan Poles. There's a lot to unpack here. And what I will say is this is a marathon, not a sprint. Five years is the right time frame to think about this.

I am never for a second. And people can kill me for this, fine. I am never for a second going to think again about them not taking C.J. Stroud in the 2023 draft. what they did in that moment and the process associated with those choices, I 100% support. We talk all the time about how quarterbacks are failed consistently because they don't have enough help. Trading back in that draft, getting a guy like DJ Moore, building up the infrastructure from a talent perspective on the offense, and waiting to potentially drop another quarterback in there after moving on from Justin Fields, I support that series of events 100% of the time. This draft, if Jane Daniels ends up being the guy and Caleb Williams isn't, that's a wholly different conversation.

Here's what I'll say about the Jane Daniels, Caleb Williams, same draft that we pick the right guy part of this. No one cares in Buffalo that they passed on Lamar Jackson in 2018. No one cares. You can have two guys from the same draft class that are successful. And I think that if Caleb Williams ends up developing and becoming a real guy, I'm not going to spend a ton of time more. about the difference between him and Jaden Daniels. If he doesn't, then I think that there's going to be a lot of just consternation and dreaded my life. But if he does, then I don't think it ends up matter.

I don't think we should be shocked that Jaden Daniels is more ready than Caleb Williams is. He's going to be 24 years old in a couple weeks. He started 55 games in college. He was in college for five years. Caleb is 21. He started 37 games in college. He's just a young. younger player, less time on task.

And I think Jaden Daniels, even coming into the draft, there was a lot of talk about how advanced he was as a processor. And I think that we're seeing that. And the part that I keep coming back to here is we need to be more thoughtful and nuanced at how we talk about situation. Coming into the year, we thought that the bear situation was so, so good because of the receivers. If you go back and listen to my RNFC North preview and what was keeping me up at night about

the bears, it was that they didn't do enough for. from the coaching staff and infrastructure perspective to help Gail Blames. Going out and getting a guy like Shane Waldron, and I think the capped ceiling on a guy like Shane Waldron, I was concerned about that. I don't think it's necessarily that the Bears' offensive line is that much worse from a personnel project than Washington's offensive line. I just think that the plan Washington has had for how they're scheming around their

offensive line, for how they're giving their quarterback answers, is just so much better than what the Bears are doing right now. I think there was improvements against the Rams. I think there were steps in the right direction. I like some of the things that they were trying to do. But there are just so many things to think about, about why these guys are playing the way that they're playing and what the three, four, five-year outlook might be.

And if at the end of that three or four or five-year outlook, Jaden Daniels is the third best quarterback in the league, but Caleb Williams is the eighth best quarterback in the league, it has a seat at the table, then I'm not going to spend a lot of time worrying about it. And that makes, that is a healthy way to look at this. Absolutely. I think just from a narrative standpoint, it will be really interesting to see how this all plays out.

Because I'm with, I mean, Caleb Williams was my number one overall player in the draft. I'm still a big believer in Caleb Williams. Like I said, I think the way that he has played in these first four games are how you would expect a rookie quarterback to play. No matter what anybody called him, generational, whatever, you know, whatever, people called him before the draft. This is how I think I would expect a number one quarterback. quarterback to perform with given the context and the circumstances. So I'm not punting on Caleb by any means. But I do think that every, all the praise going to Jaden Daniel's side is, is warranted

with how he's played. He has played much better than I think any of us thought he would at this point. And I'm, I guess I'm more interested to see if he can keep it up. As, you know, the season goes on, as teams get a better look at this offensive line, And the defensive coordinators get a chance to really hone in on him, you know, this weekend against the Browns. And what's Jim Schwartz do with going up against Jayden Daniels? I mean, every game is going to be an evaluation opportunity. And so I'm just very interested to see if Daniels can keep it up.

Not to this level. I think it'd be almost unfair to him to try to keep it up to this, what he's done the first four games. He's completely 80% of his passes. He leads to the league for dropback. This is not going to keep up. No. But if he can still be a really good quarterback as a rookie, that that's what you're after. And based on what he's done so far, I think we have reason to believe that he can.

No doubt, no doubt. And it just, it will be interesting. I mean, already, you know, we've thrown dirt on Bryce Young. So, you know, C.J. Stroud won that battle. And I think you're right. There doesn't have to be an A or B situation where one of these quarterbacks is it and one of them's not. Both of them can absolutely be big time players in the NFL. And it'll just be interesting to see over the next year, three years, five years, how it all plays out. But it's, it's, it's, Maybe not as much for you, but it will be interesting to see the narratives, just the graph of all the ebbs and flows of how people talk about this thing. I'm trying not to live in those ebbs and flows because if I do, I'm just going to drive myself insane. Going back to that 2018 draft, that's kind of what I'm attaching myself to here. And I think that we've lost sight about what is normal for young quarterbacks and what we typically get out of young quarterbacks when they play because of what Stroud and Jane Daniels have done over the last couple years. You go back and look at Josh Allen's first half of his rookie season. It was brutal.

And he was in a worse situation than Caleb Williams is from a past catcher. Lamar Jackson wasn't great his first year. Lamar Jackson didn't play. Lamar Jackson didn't play until the back half of his first year. And it wasn't good. Typically, with the guys, either struggle or we don't even see them.

So I just think that it's really important to keep that stuff in mind as we think about the long-term outlook for these guys. But I've said this about Jane Daniels, multiple times over the last couple weeks. And I think that this is a good note to end on. If you're this good, this early, you're probably going to be at least a solid quarterback for a very long time. Very rarely do we see somebody had these sorts of moments and it's totally a flash in the pan

and they go away. Like Carson Wentz maybe like because in year two he did what he did, but then some injuries crept in. But for the most part, if you show this this early in your career, you are going to stick in the league as an above average starter at the very least for a very long time. All right. That's all we got. We're going to do this a few times over the course of the year. We're going to check in on your draft.

thoughts and how you're feeling. And then obviously when we get to draft time, you'll be back on the show weekly because we love doing this with you. But it's good to have you back, buddy. I miss you. I miss doing this with you. I was looking forward to this for a while. So, yeah, looking forward to doing it more.

All right, guys, that's all we got for today. We will be back on Friday with our week five preview with me and Derek. Until then, appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.