The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Lions, Jets, and what success looks like for 2nd-year rebuilds, with Daniel Jeremiah; A visit to Bills camp with Joe Buscaglia

Episode Date: August 12, 2022

The Lions and Jets are among a handful of teams entering the second year of what feels like a total rebuild. How do those teams look entering the 2022 NFL season? Daniel Jeremiah of NFL Network joins Robert Mays on this episode of The Athletic Football Show to assess. Then, Robert check in from Bills camp with Joe Buscaglia. Where can we expect some changes this year from the preseason betting-market favorite to be Super Bowl Champs? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. To the Athletic Football Show. Today's Friday, August 12th. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today. Had a nice chat with our Bills writer at the Athletic Joe Biscalia at Bill's camp over the last couple of days. Really looking forward to you guys checking that out. Before we get to Joe, though, I am so happy to welcome.

From the NFL network, Daniel Jeremiah. Daniel, how you doing, buddy? I'm doing great, Robert. How you doing, man? I'm doing well. I'm doing well. In the teeth of my training camp trip, which is always fun. It's good to catch up with people, say hello, have the conversations off to New Jersey later

tonight. We're recording this on Thursday. And then I'll be on the East Coast this weekend. Ravens, Eagles, that whole swing. So you know that. It's fun to be back at it. It's always a good time. No, I'm super jealous.

I was supposed to do a big East Coast swing and then I'm an idiot and drop something on my toe. So I had to cancel my East Coast swing. So I've got a lot of chargers, a lot of charger visits, because that's a home game for me. But I do, it's one of my sneaky favorite times of the year is getting out to see everybody. And everybody's, it's like when scouting, we would always say, you know, when you go get background on college players during training camp, it was always glowing, right? Everybody's the nicest kid, the hardest worker. You want your son, you want your daughter to marry this player. Then you show up week four and there's one and three. And all of a sudden it's like the same, you're like, this guy is not reliable. He's not tough. He's not a leader. You know, I'm like,

four weeks ago, he was the greatest dude of all time. People always ask, why would you do this? Because everyone's in a good mood. No one has lost a game yet. And it's very important to tap into that. Sneakily, one of the best times, I think, to do something like this is in May right after the draft because everyone is so loose because they've been keeping secrets for the last. two months. So the first two weeks in May and right around training camp, I think, are the times when you really want to be going around and chatting with people because they're a little bit more forthcoming than they might be at other times in the calendar. Yeah, you're going to get, you're going to definitely get the bro hug for the training camp visit and you're going to definitely get the

fist pound if you see them in the middle of a struggling season. I want to talk to you about one thing because I have gained new respect for scouts when I do this sort of trip because you roll into a place at 10 p.m., whatever, and you guys, I know, had to write reports in those stretches before you'd go to bed. When I get into a hotel at like 10.30, I try to sit out and do a couple hours of work. And it is a big lift for me at that time of night. Also, I'm 34 years old. When you were doing a lot of your scouting, I think you're in your 20s. You have a little bit more juice back then, but I have found a newfound appreciation for the guys who live this sort of lifestyle and continue to get their shit done. Yeah, I think my last year, um,

Gosh, so I'm 44 and I've been with the network for 10 years. So at 34, I got to the point, too old for this. Can't do it anymore because there's when you know, when you check into the hotel and as you start to get a little bit older, there's there's two options, right? You'll talk about the, the angel and the devil on your shoulder. There's the desk and there's the bed. And as you get older, that bed looks a lot more inviting than that desk. does. I've gone out to do some work. I did it last night. I don't even drink anymore. And I was just, I went to a bar because I knew if I went out and did the work there, I would actually do it rather than sitting in my hotel room and just going to bed at 10.30. So last story, then we can get into these teams. I know we had some ground we're going to cover. But I, I would, I got to the point where I would do my work. Anytime I got break into school. So if you finished getting all your background and watching tape in the morning, say you finished all that by one o'clock. and sometimes they might not be practicing until 4 o'clock.

So you've got kind of that three-hour window. If you could talk to some other people around the facility, you'd back around, you would. But usually there's a little gap. So my report writing was in that gap. I would go find a coffee shop, you know, or, you know, a sandwich shop. And then pull out my laptop. And I found out when I'm in that environment,

I could get a lot more work done versus at the end of a long car ride as you have experienced. It's brutal. It's a balance. It's a very fun life. But it definitely takes them getting used to. Like you alluded to, we're going to get into today the second year rebuilds around the NFL. I really wanted to talk to you about this because you do such a great job of obviously talking about and thinking about the draft all season while keeping two eyes on the league. So you've had a really good sense for some of the young players and some of the teams that have drafted high in the draft over the last couple years.

So I want to talk about the teams we know, right? The lions are in this stage. The Jets are, the Jags, the Falcons, and the Texans. So those are the five teams that I picked at different stages of it. Obviously, we have new coaches in some of these places. But the GMs in these places have been the same. The guy's responsible for building the team over the last two years. I just want to talk about what we think a successful season looks like in year two for these franchises.

And I want to start with the Lions. Obviously, a lot of Lions talk over the last couple days with Hard Knocks. Did you watch Hard Knocks? I don't, but do you have to anymore? like all of it ends up on social media. I've seen 10 different three minute clips. I feel like I saw the whole show. It's a very good point. I still watched it because I wanted to get a sense of what everyone was talking about. I did the one thing I will say watching the episode, you get an appreciation for just how different their coaching staff is. When they list off how many years in the NFL all those guys played, it's like, oh man, this really is different. You don't have staffs that are built like this. And some of those personalities are fun and the interplay would do Staley and Aaron Glad. I was like, I'm happy I'm watching this. But the Campbell's, you. stuff is mostly shown up on social media. We need to talk about the damn Campbell speeches. We don't have to dig into this right now, you and me.

They make no sense. The things he is saying make absolutely no sense. It's like the Will Ferrell, it doesn't make sense, but it's provocative. That's how I feel about the Dan Campbell speeches at this point. But there has been a lot of goodwill heaped onto the Lions recently. I think people are excited about them. And this is a team that won three games last year. So I want to kind of dig into how excited we should be.

and what success does look like for them. So if you're looking at Detroit and you're thinking about a successful 2022 season, what does that look like in your mind? Well, I mean, when you start with numbers, right? Everybody avoids numbers. You're not going to get anybody with a team to give you a number of wins. That means it's a successful season. Oh, we got to get better than we were last year.

If we take that every player takes a step forward, yada, yada, yada. Let's put a number to it. They won three games last year. Doubling it to six to me is a, that's a, successful season. And I look at it just from a pure numbers standpoint, okay, you were three, you're now at six, we're on our way. And I think if you look at roster wise, what you're keeping an eye on, they've really tried to build a line of scrimmage team. They've invested resources on the offenses and defensive front. So for those young players, it doesn't have to be

consistent. But if you can see kind of the flashes emerge from those guys, and we saw it last year with Penae Soule, getting kind of better as the year goes along. It got a chance to be an elite player he's got that type of talent this you're going to see it with hutch like those guys if you see those guys kind of moving forward and you go okay the identity of our team which everybody's searching for is we're going to be a line of scrimmage team this is where we're investing our resources and we have to be able to take games over at the line of scrimmage the quarterback thing's going to sort itself out um that's kind of been kicked down the road a little bit we'll see how jared golf plays but i don't think anybody really thinks he's going to be their long term guy so i wouldn't

get too wrapped up in that but if i can see the line of scrimmage kind of take hold and have, you know, one or two games during this season where you're like, oh, my gosh, they dominated, you know, what their line of scrimmage play. I think that's a great start. And then some of the flashes from some of the skill, once James and Williams gets, gets rolling, you know, I see some of those flashes. But let's put a number on it and say six. The identity is exactly what I would come back to. And it's on front on both sides. If we get to the end of the season and Jonah Jackson is a definitive pro bowler, it's like, that guy's one of the best guards in the league. And Sue, the same thing goes for him at right tackle.

you see a little bit of growth from O'Neill and Onzareke. Aidan Hutchinson is just undeniable from day one. It's like at the very least he's a really effective player. And they even said that at Hard Knocks last night. I think the defensive staff was like, do you think he's just legit right now? And Aaron Glenn was like, yeah, I think he is. And if that's the case, that's huge. And then on offense, Jameson Williams is the name I go back to.

We get six games from him at the end of the season and you get three or four huge splash plays. And it's like, all right. Him and St. Brown, I understand how those pieces fit together, and then you kind of roll it into next year. And it's always funny when you go into a season and you think, all right, I think we did this exercise last year for the Lions. And we continue to do it throughout the year. And what me and Nate would talk about is it doesn't matter if they win two games or three games. Who cares? As long as they're competitive and by the end of the season, the vibes are good, where they're in these games, people feel good about the direction.

And that's kind of what happened. They won three games And I think everyone's excited about what's happening there So if you can continue to build on that And even if it's only six We feel good about this position group We feel good about this position group We think one, two, three players

Are potential stars And we've built this place up Where we have two first round picks If we drop a quarterback in Maybe we can be good next year That to me feels like the right recipe for stuff Yeah, building blocks You got some building blocks in place

And they're doing it I think You know the right way When you think about man if you can if you can be good up front and we talk about this all the time on our pod but like it's hard to be a bad team when you have a great offense defensive line like take everything else out even the quarterback position like your your floor is high like you start the season with six to eight wins just because you can dominate the line of scrimmage and then what equals last year to me exactly exactly they were deep and talented on both sides of the ball up front and it helps

cover up a lot of other warts now you're not going to win a championship that way but it does give you a high floor. And I was going to ask you about Goff, you think that a success for them is building the right infrastructure for the next quarterback or Jared Goff showing that he's the guy. I tend to think it's the former. If you think, oh, man, if we get a, you know, our next guy in here, if we get a top five pick in here, what could we look like? That to me is a better outcome than I think them talking themselves into what they'd be with Jared Goff, even if I think Jared Goff is fine. Yeah, I know they can't ever say this, but if I put myself in their position, The goal is I need the quarterback play to be competent enough that I can evaluate the rest of my roster.

And he easily meets that threshold. All right. Let's get to the Jets who are in a slightly different position than the Lions are. This is a team that I think was in the top five in cash spending this off season. I mean, they've really tried to throw some resources around, I think, to be pretty good this season. So in your mind, what does a successful season look like for the New York Jets in 2022? Well, I almost, you know, and we can talk about numbers and put numbers. numbers to it.

They've got to, with the talent they have in place, and I know the schedule is brutal. I mean, everybody's kind of talked about that in the off season. Their first eight games are just brutal. But I think they can approach 500. And I think if they're in the 500 neighborhood, if you want to put a win total on it, I think that's a big step forward for them. And being able to evaluate the quarterback. I think you can say, you know, there's some teams where it's sink or swim on the

quarterback. I think Joe has done a good job with this roster of being able to put it in place where you like to see Zach take a step forward. He doesn't have to be Superman in this group. There's going to be so many baked in easy completions with the weapons that they have around him. Their defensive line, I think you're going to see as the year goes along, might be one of the deepest groups in the league. Like their threes are good players.

They are good players in that third group of guys. You'll see it in the preseason. I think they just cut Hamel card the other day who got claimed. The Jets defensive line, they're going to, they'll get picks. Once they have to cut the roster down, they're going to be able to trade some defensive linemen and get picks because they can't keep them all. So I think they're in a good position to take some of that pressure off Zach where he doesn't have to play at a super high level. He's got to be better.

But I think there's going to be some easy things baked in there. I hate the Mackay injury. That's another conversation. But I think in today's football, I'd rather have to cover up a right tackle, which there's probably five good ones in the entire league, than not be strong up the middle. And with Tomlinson and Vera Tucker, I think they've got. got a chance to be real firm inside. So yeah, I think, you know, 500's kind of the, that's kind of the aiming point. You might not necessarily have to pass that threshold, but you want to be in the neighborhood. Apparently they just signed Dwayne Brown.

I think that happens since we started recording. So that's huge because they had Max Mitchell, who was a fourth round pick. And even if they're optimistic about him, the expectations they have and what they need to see from the quarterback, I would rather pencil fan to in there, have Dwayne Brown play a left tackle and sleep a little bit easier at night if I were Joe Douglas. Yeah, and fans better on the left side than he is on the right. But if you want to get your best guys on the field, he's going to have to go back over there to the right side. And they should have, you know, they should be fine.

Again, I think you go to these training camps and you've been on the tour. I've just been on the phone. But I have the same conversations with everybody every year. Man, we're worried about our right tackle. I don't know if we have enough corners. And I'm like, yeah, well, you know who else is in that boat? Friggin, 25, 26 teams. So you can help and you can cover up that thing.

But, you know, the sneaky thing about this Jets group, when you look at them and just kind of looking at their depth chart, you know, everybody that's talked about the running backs with Breece Hall, Michael Carter. It's a good combination. It's a good one, too. The receivers, I think they can go five deep now at wideout. But I think what will help the quarterback more than anything else is going to be used, Amma and Conklin. I really do. I mean, I think about from a quarterback's perspective, who gives me easy completions, the combination of the two backs and the tight ends that they can use, I mean, they're layups. They're going to bake in some layups.

On both sides, I think the layups is a great way to put it. I'm in Bill's camp right now. And it's kind of striking the same thing they have now. Obviously, Dawson Knox took a step last year. They bring in OJ Howard. I think we'll see more 12 personnel. Isaiah McKenzie's had a really nice camp. He's going to be a bigger part of their offense.

Flexibility with your offensive personnel. The ability to kind of deploy yourself in as many ways as you want to, and a defense that can align with that, I think has become more and more of a focus. I guess I've just noticed it more. And the Jets are one of those teams, right? It seems like they have a lot of different guys. Like who fits where when they're in 11 personnel and who's going to be a starter?

I think that stuff just matters less. It's just how many different types of offense can you play? And right now, I think they can play a bunch of different types of offense based on the players that they have. That's a great point, Robert. And I'd love to get your thoughts on this because I love when we talk about this kind of stuff. I don't feel like these discussions take place. But I was talking with a general manager the other day. We're talking about their roster.

And the question, which you would probably hear at every training camp in the league right now, who's going to be your third receiver? Like, how's that jockeying going? Is it the third? He's like, there's no such thing as a third receiver. And I said, well, tell me, explain that. Tell me what you're thinking. He's like, it's all week to week matchups.

Some weeks our third receiver is going to be our second tight end. Some weeks our third receiver. is going to be our speed stretch guy because we feel like we can get on top of coverage. Some weeks that third receiver is going to be our big slot receiver who we like the matchup who can muscle guys. Some weeks that third receiver is going to be our kick returner slash slot guy because we can get him some jets and we can get the ball out in his hand and some bubbles and let him, you know, they got a guy that can't tackle.

So we're going to challenge him and stress them in space. He said it's really just week to week what that calls for. But the whole the whole old school approach of he's number one, he's number two, he's number three. It doesn't exist anymore. That's exactly what I was Exactly what I was alluding to And I had a conversation I wrote a story a couple weeks ago

About the evolution of slot players In the NFL And how on a general level They've moved from the Welker Beasley types To bigger players Godwin People like that But I was talking to Frank Gregg about it

And he said It's not that they've moved to bigger players Necessarily It's that you have to have a different Flavor a player Depending on situation So the three guys that he listed off To me like you alluded to

Speed guy So do you have your speed guy So do you have your speed vertical stretch slot? Tyree Kill, Christian Kirk, guys like that. For the Colts, it will be Paris Campbell if he's healthy. Do you have that power guy? If I want to line up in 111 and grind you down because you have 180 pound nickel, you're playing a lot of soft zone.

And Brandon Staley said something really interesting to me that I hadn't really thought about, but it makes sense. If teams are going to be playing more shell coverage and more soft zone, especially against the team that's quarterback by Justin Herbert, length becomes more important because you have to have somebody that can make catches in traffic in those soft zones. Marcus Colston was that sort of player. You think back to those Saints' offenses,

and I think longer slots like Marcus Colston become more in vogue again because of the way defenses are playing. And then those second tight ends. The Broncos, to me, are the best example of this. When you lose Tim Patrick, now you lose a little flexibility with having three receivers on the field, but you can still piece together that third receiving option with Dolchich, with Kaja Hamler, if you need speed.

You just kind of have to cobble it into, one player depending on situation. And I think that's exactly what it is. We want to, in our minds, have these 11 personnel teams like the Colts where you have the three receivers, you know where they're lined up. That's what a lineup looks like. Even the Rams for the last few years, we thought of it that way. But most teams just don't and shouldn't operate like that.

The Rams can because Cooper Cup is an alien. That's the only reason it makes sense. And I've had that same conversation with Staley. and we've talked about just in maybe the most underrated aspect in evaluating receivers is length. And you look at guys in a contested catch league and you look at a guy like Brandon Ayuk who's just a freak show with his, you're not supposed to be that, his normal size with that length is ridiculous.

So now I can separate and then guess what? If I'm not separating, I've got somebody on my back hip, I can still go up and catch it. And especially when you get into the postseason, the windows is just like we've talked about every year. It is so shrunken down. The field shrinks in the postseason.

Everything is a contested catch. So if you don't have a guy that can make plays with guys on his back and guys in those tight windows, you can look great in the regular season in a space game, but the space disappears quick once you get into the postseason. So it's a fascinating look at kind of team building and building in flexibility into your roster. We talked about it with the Lions. Who do you think need to be the building blocks for the Jets after this season is over? I think Elijah Moore and AVT are two guys we talked about in our breakout player show earlier.

week, those seem like Givens. Who else for you? I know you know this team pretty well. Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm going to go to, you know, Breece Hall, I think in a league, maybe you don't care about running backs. He's got a chance to be a real difference maker, not only just running the football, but catching a ball out of the backfield. I think he can establish himself. And I know this is high. I think he can be a top five to eight running back in the league, like right now. He's got that type of ability. So to just, again, whatever we can do to help the quarterback takes, take some pressure off. I think Bruce Hall is a big part of that offensively. And then defensively, I know he's having a great camp. He hadn't got paid yet,

but Quinn and Williams needs to be the circle guy. Like, you need to go play the Jets. And that needs to be the name that you circle as an opponent and go, he can wreck us. We've got to be able to contain him. They've put so many other pieces around him. They're going to be able to keep him fresh with depth that they have. But he needs to be a star. He's, he's been a really good player. He's going to get paid a ton, a crap ton of money if he hits his ceiling. And I think it's all set up for him to hit its ceiling this year. It's always fun when you watch where coaches come from and how it informs the way they think about the next team they'll build when they get a chance. And watching Sala come from San Francisco and then just say, I need a hundred defensive linemen has been really funny to watch.

I was talking to an agent the other day who has one of their defensive linemen. And he said he's running sprints after practice because he can't get enough reps. He can't get enough work. There's so many guys. And I think people laugh at that and they go, this is the Jets. They stink. And then you start looking like they're twos right now. I'm looking at just on our lads, right? Jacob Martin is a good player. Solomon Thomas was a top five pick.

Sheldon Rankin's is a good player. Bryce Huff, look at the, look at the numbers of him with like win rate and all that stuff or somebody hasn't played a lot, is talented. Not to mention you've got Michael Clemens, Shepard, Vinny Curry, who's played a lot in this league. Like, these are the, those are the twos and the threes. Like that's, that's a lot of dudes that you can kind of roll three. there. Same as we're talking about with receivers.

It's not about having four offensive linemen that you feel good about. It's about having six guys, seven guys, and situationally, how do you deploy them? Arden Key was an important player for the Niners at the end of last season. Can the Jets find their version of two or three Arden Keys? And I think it's important to think about. I wanted to ask you one more thing about the Jets before we move on. With Zach Wilson, do you think they believe that he can take a step? Or do you think they're wishing and hoping he can take a step this year?

It's a great phrase. I don't know that you can say, I mean, they will all say they believe he can take a step, you know, but I think at the end of the day, until you've seen it, I've having been in those positions with quarterbacks, it's you're wishing and hoping, you know, like, man, I believe in my evaluation of the player. Now can I believe in the player. I don't know until I see it, you know. And you can say everything, you know, and support him publicly and, but, but, you know, but, you know, but. at the end of the day, you're still wanting, wishing and hoping that this is all going to work out

because you haven't seen it yet. And he hasn't, I mean, we talked about some flashes last year, but not any really kind of consistent flashes where it was two, three games worth. So yeah,

I think you'd be dishonest right now. If you said you knew, I don't think anybody knows. You got to wait and see. All right, that's how I feel about it. So it's nice to hear you say that. I was hoping I wasn't missing something obvious.

All right. Yeah. No, you haven't seen it yet. So until we see it, we don't know. All right. Let's get to the Jags.

What does a successful season look like for the 2022 Jaguars? Obviously, a slightly different situation. They have a new coach, but the people in charge of building this team are the same. I think that they've made a little few pivot moves because they have a new staff in there, but still some continuity from last year. So what do you think is a successful season for the Jags this year? Well, I've kind of put wins on the first two teams we discussed with the Lions and the Jets. And I mean this, honestly, I do not care.

If they win one, two, five, seven, I don't care. It doesn't matter. if the quarterback shows you that he's what we thought he was, it's a successful season. Throw the rest of it out. You can have time and you're going to have patience there with Doug Peterson to be able to build it out, however you need to build it out. I think they've got a roster of a bunch of solid season Bs, and they're going to eventually have to put the blue chip impact players around the quarterback.

But if he shows you what we thought of him, at least what I thought of him, coming into the draft process of what he could be, and he starts, becoming that guy, I honestly don't care how many games they won. It really doesn't get any more complicated than that. And I know that's not exciting or interesting to frame it that way, but that's how I feel. No. When I look at the roster and when I look at the past catchers and I think about the resources they had coming into the season, am I wrong just to be disappointed about how little

juice they have on the outside if we think this is such an important season for the quarterback? Yeah. I think, again, I think they've, they kind of spread it out. I mean, I know obviously a bunch was made about Christian Kirk's money. And I think he'll be a good player. I think he'll put up good numbers there. He's a good player. I just still don't see an A.

You know, there's not one A level guy that he's got a chance to get the ball to. So that's going to come. But I think, as we said with Jared Goff, is there enough talent in place to evaluate the, you know, the rest of the roster with the Lions? Yeah, Jared Goff meets that threshold. Is this group of players around Trevor Lawrence enough for us to, evaluate Trevor Lawrence. I think so. I think so. It's not it's look, there's no, you don't look out there and go, oh my gosh, they're lining up. This is not an

NFL player. Like they've just got a bunch of, you know, a bunch of threes. Like, you know, a bunch of good third receivers. And I would put Christian Kirk probably in that good two group, but they don't have those A level guys. But I think the quarterback, there's enough there. Well, you get to see what you need to see. I just wish you look back at that draft. Obviously, you know, we know they wanted Tony because Herbert Meyer just said out loud that they wanted contours, Tony. By the way, by the way, that's the golden rule in personnel. And that's what every general manager, somebody should put this on their desk when they take the job. Head coach general manager, never go on record with an evaluation on a player that you don't pick. There's no upside to it.

There's no upside to it. It does nothing for you. It only gives you, it only limits your leverage in future situations. That's all it does. Yeah. I mean, well, that's what that's why I always, I argue with my friends, my GM buddies. I'm like, you, I have it so much harder than you do. they're like, well, you're not getting fired. I'm like, okay, technically, job security wise, I've got it better. But I have to go on record every year with 150 evaluations. Like, I have to put a top 150 together, which can be tied back to me and I can be mercilessly mocked. I said, you got to go on record with seven to ten guys. You could have the worst evaluations of all time. Like, you guys, number one on your board and he's a total stiff and he's terrible. It doesn't pan out.

Nobody will ever know because you pick nine. And that guy was, long gone and he failed somewhere else. So you don't have to show your cards. Why would you show your cards on anybody other than the seven to ten guys you picked? Well, that's the life you've chosen, my friend. You do it well, but that is the life that you have chosen. It's funny, you look at it right now. You look at this draft, okay?

They picked 25th. They got the ETN. What if ETN was Elijah Moore? How much better would you feel about this team in this exact moment? I'd feel a lot better. Yeah, I want to see, I mean, I liked ETN a lot. Um, and that was, uh, you know, it was funny. You said ETN.

So when that first night of the draft ended coming into the next day, the jets were going to pick and they were going to take, you know, Elijah Moore or Javante Williams. And that was kind of, uh, you know, that's a, that's a debate and discussion. I was having, I had them right next to each other. So you've got the, you've got the running back and the receiver. And I think, you know, obviously ETA is a different player. But to me, that, that's a fascinating discussion.

if you look at it from what helps the quarterback most. And isn't that how we should look at it? No, no, yeah, but absolutely. If you just say like, okay, what helps us score points or what helps the quarterback, you know, like there's, I think there's a slight difference there. But Helijian Moore is just, he's not only is he so talented. And if you're around him for five minutes, it's like talking to a 10 year pro. Like, he checks every box.

And they were in a weird middle ground this year, like picking, 33rd was a bad pick to need a wide receiver in this year's draft. And they'll end up picking a linebacker. And how the linebacker core fits together makes sense when you think about where Mike Caldwell comes from with him spending time in Tampa. And now they have a Luickon who was used a lot as a blitzer last year. Devin Lloyd was a very good blitzer in college. I can understand what the plan is defensively.

But it's just one of those things where if the quarterback is what matters, I wish they would have done more to help the quarterback. Yeah. And anytime you have the young quarterback to me, like spreading the wealth of resources is not the way to go. I'm loading up on offense. And I don't care if we lose every game, 34 to 28. If the quarterback's making progress, guess what? I've got job security. And we've got time to build out the other side of the ball. But, you know, spreading your resources with a, you know, with a premier high pick quarterback, it's, you know, that's, it's tough. It's what

you said at the beginning. It doesn't matter if they win games. It matters if the quarterback who cares. Good. That's the most important thing. All right. Next team here, Atlanta Falcons, they're in such a different position than the other teams that we're talking about here. I think they're 31st in the league in cash spending this year. They're almost in the first year of their rebuild more than the second year. When you think about the way the last 18 months have gone, what does the successful season look like for Atlanta to you? This one, I feel like the other ones we've gone over,

I feel like there's a concrete answer. You can kind of see, kind of know what it looks like. I have no idea what they would view as a success for the Atlanta Falcons. I'm right there with you. And I don't know what, what's the, you know, what's the, I guess maybe the successful season. And this sounds nebulous, but do you have an identity? Like what, what kind of identity are we going for here with this team? I'm guessing kind of the size and the length is what you're, you're hoping for, what plays with pits in London.

I mean, I think, look, if pits in London kind of, you know, really, really take off this year, that can be a nice, a nice glimpse into what the future can be. They don't have their quarterback of the future on their roster, in my opinion, right now. I don't think they're good up front on the offensive line. I don't see difference makers outside of, you know, Grady Jarrett really on the defensive front. I just, I don't know what they are. I guess that would be my thing. I guess you got a good secondary, some good pieces in place there.

But outside of that, I don't know. I don't know what the identity of this team is. To me, it's all about pits in London. If we get to a point by the end of the season where everyone is saying, man, just wait until they get a quarterback. If that's the sentence about the Falcons by the end of this year because of how well those guys play and the flashes you see from them, that kind of feels like success to me.

On the defensive side of the ball, AJ Terrell's a star. Like that just pencil that in. We already know that's the case. Can you get one or two guys to pop from? I like Richie Grant. I'm hoping it's going to happen. Hawkins and Grant are the two guys I would come back to.

Like one of those guys by the end of the season, especially Richie Grant. It's like, all right, this is a guy we spent a high draft pick on. He is a building block moving. forward. Can Drew Dalman be the center for them? Can he win that job? Just a couple of those guys. You don't have to have them be stars, but can we feel good about six to eight players that we want to be part of the core as we really start to build it up next year? I don't think it goes any further than that. I don't think your ambitions have to be higher than that if you're Atlanta. You'd love to see either

Malone or Abacady hit too. Yep. You know, they've been searching for young rushers for it feels like a decade plus and have been able to get on. Since John Abraham left that team. I know. So, If you just get one of those guys, ideally, both of them do, but get one of those guys, I do think kind of speed and length, you know, athleticism and length, you can kind of say, okay, what's the theme here they went for in the draft? Troy Anderson, you know, big, long, fast, D'Angelo Malone, long, athletic, rangy, you know, London, long, rangy guys. So you've already got pits.

So maybe that's kind of the, there's some identity to be found in there, just trying to be a really, really long, rangy team. Same goes for Arthur Smith. He comes from Tennessee where all they do is draft these whole. hulking dudes at every single position and then you start to fall in love with hulking dudes at every single position that's what it is that's what it is and that's going back to jacksville real quick and talking to bucky who's around that team all the time he's like yeah that they look like there's some condors when they get off the when they get off the bus and come out there when you see

you know uh the campbell void i mean it david walker like that those spots walker so long um so yeah and uh josh allen's you know these guys are all six five and long all right Last one here. I'm going to ask you to do something that I don't think anyone in America can do. Can you explain the Houston Texans to me? Well, I would say this team is TBD in the future. So they've done the best thing that they've done, which is weird to say when you talk about trading a top five caliber quarterback,

is they've accumulated resources. So you've got to reserve judgment on what they are or what they're trying to be until they, you know, they get a chance to use all the resources they've collected. Hats off for, you know, hitting on the quarterback. I think he's got a chance to be their guy going forward. You're going to say hitting on the quarterback. You're going to go that far. I saw him.

I saw him live. I saw him live last year against the Chargers. And he played. It was one of his best games. But I think he's, I don't want to. I hate throwing out comparisons because then they're going to tie him to him. But I think he has a Matt Ryan type of upside. Wow. I do. I think he's incredibly, I think he's got enough of everything. He's got enough arm. He's got enough athleticism. I think he's highly cerebral. He was, he was a five-star quarterback for a reason. Like, there's a lot of tools there. And he was thrust into an awful situation. Like, it doesn't get any worse than what he was thrust into. And if we're going to spend time talking about the hope and wishing and dreaming on, on Zach Wilson, and we're going to talk about Trevor Lawrence. And this guy,

what he did on tape last year was better than those guys. And he was not in an advantageous situation. So that tells me he's got some maturity to go along with some talent. Now, again, I don't think, when I say Matt Ryan and Matt Ryan obviously was MVP in the league. I'm not saying he's going to be that. But Matt Ryan, kind of the later version of Matt Ryan, which probably settled between, what would you say, like eight to 12, like a top eight to 12ish quarterback. I think he's got a chance to be a top half of the league starter is what I would say.

And if that's what he is and where they got him and what will, that what that will allow them to build around him over the next three years, it's an unbelievable win. If he does become their guy, it's such an advantage for how you can build the rest of this thing. You talked about the draft picks, but just the financial flexibility that it's going to give you over the next few years. What a weird team financially,

by the way, Laramie Tunsell is a $35 million cap hit next year. There's just so many quirks to the way that they've built this thing. And I understand it. Like they have no other players. You might as well just push that money into next year and just take the big hit. but it's very strange. A couple other guys,

like if Nico Collins takes this stuff forward, and they have that Nico Collins, Davis Mills connection that could be there over the next couple years, Jonathan Greener played really well last year for them. Can he be a building ball? Brevin Jordan, has got some ability to be a good tight end for them.

And that's kind of what it feels like. You know, they have enough bodies up front. You know, if, let's say Titus Howard can play right tackle and a decent clip for them all season. They've got some functional players. Obviously,

they drafted a guard in the first round. I think that's the most important thing. And we improve those circumstances that you were talking about around Mills enough where he can take a step forward. And then when you go into 2023, we have all these picks. We have all this flexibility. Then we start to build it up. I think that feels like success to me. No doubt.

You know, look, that's going to be the challenge. Stingley's going to be a stud day one. You'll watch. He'll explode and take off. All right, buddy. We did all five teams, ran through him. I really, really appreciate doing that. Your insight on this stuff is fantastic always.

Thanks a lot for the time. We'll talk to you soon. I appreciate it, Robert. Have you going, man. All right. It's time now to chat with our Bill's writer here at the athletic, Joe Biscalia. Joe, how you doing, man? I'm good, Robert.

Thanks for having me. I am thrilled to be in a dorm room at St. John Fisher University. This is so weird. I can't even get over this. This is where they put you guys up for like three weeks. Yeah. When you slacked me a few weeks ago, I message back from like, you're going to get the true dorm room experience. And I don't think you, I don't think you knew.

we're literally looking but looking at two twin beds in a dorm room at Dorsey Hall. I have not been in a situation like this in a very long time. I haven't seen a twin bed and I can't remember how long. And the fact that I used to sleep on one of those for an entire year of college is really terrifying to me. Absolutely horrifying. You get over it. You're too drunk to really care for most of it. All right.

I spent two days here. This is the end of my second day here. It was nice to spend two days with the Super Bowl favorite, you know, and if you're trying to figure out, where to spend time on a trip like this is definitely one where I wanted to kind of sit and marinate a little bit. And there's a lot to chew on here. I want to start with what's different because it's hard to get that out of your mind when you're thinking about this team. And you're looking at the offense, defense stands with really nothing, right? Like Von Miller's here and they've done some shifting along the interior of the defensive line. The churn that Brandon Bean does,

I think is very smart and intentional every year. I think he does a very good job with that. Obviously, Kyriehiel's there. But other than that, which is player. and new places. On offense, there's a lot of new faces, there's a lot of new structure to it. When you're thinking about the biggest question marks for this team offensively after some of those changes, what do you comes to mind first? I mean, it's the thing that should be a bigger talking point than it is, but the fact that they have a first time ever play caller at the helm of a, as you pointed out, a Super Bowl betting favorite right now. That to me is one of the most underrated asking of the season because it brings about a certain error of variability that I don't know that they had as much of last season with Brian Dable.

We knew who Brian Dable was. We knew his creative concepts, what he was going to do, how he was going to analyze the opponent each week and look for the weaknesses. We don't know any of that stuff about Ken Dorsey. And to be fair, does Ken Dorsey know that about Ken Dorsey just yet? Has he ever been in the throes of a season where he has to pick out the poison of a, defense and try to exploit it one week to the next. And dealing with the foul periods, that's another thing. When you're a play caller and the bill said to go through it last year, there was that

stretch where it's like, we got to figure some shit out, man. Like, this is not working right now. That's a new experience when you've never been through it before as that guy at the helm. Absolutely. And it's inevitably going to come. And when that comes, what does it look like? Because it comes for everybody at some point during a season. Oh, 100%.

And the reason why Dorsey was so well thought of here is because of how good of a relationship he had with Josh. But now the relationship is different because it goes from quarterbacks coach, which is a much easier, like, and even if there's like a disagreement between the offensive coordinator and the quarterback, that quarterback could go to the quarterback's coach and be like, look, I'm seeing it this way. Now that that's just shipped a little bit. So you can like a guy in a certain role, but if once those things kind of change, how does that interpersonal communication differ from one year to the next? And I also think that some of the underlying positional coaches,

have changed. Yeah. The fact that there's a different offensive line coach here. Bobby Johnson went with Brian Dable to the Giants. You have a new quarterback's coach here because Ken Dorsey had to be replaced. Joe Brady is in that role. Much taller than I thought he would be, Joe Brady? He's a pretty tall.

I was talking to him today. I was like Joe Brady's kind of tall. I did not expect this. Looks like Brian Fallon from the Gaslight Anthem. That's a reference that like five people will get. But when I was talking to him, I was like, I'm distracted by how much you look like Brian Fallon. Good conversation, though.

And I think that it was fun talking to Dorsey yesterday. And one thing he said to me that I really kind of latched on to was that because so many new faces were coming in even outside of him, a time during the off season that would typically be reserved for, what new ideas can we implement here was often spent trying to teach the offense to people that didn't know it. It was like, all right, this is what we do. And they would sit in a room as a staff, do cutups. And you had a lot of questions coming from new position coaches. That is another way to find new things because you're bringing in. new perspectives onto the offense that's already been established. But again, more moving pieces associated with this team in that side of the ball than just

Ken Dorsey. And I think it's important to remember that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think the two positional coaches that have remained the same have been Kelly Skipper, the running backs coach and Chad Hall, the wide receivers coach, who's really talented at what he does and develops players well. But like you said, Joe Brady, Aaron Cromer is here for a second time in Buffalo. And the Cromer one is interesting to me.

maybe as like a telling sign of what they want to do here. Little breadcrumbs. You pick them up on the way. I wanted to get into this because I think that's absolutely right. Because not only, I mean, Bobby Johnson, when he got here, they switched from targeting guys who could move well to Powell. And they drafted Cody Ford. They brought in guys like Quentin Spain.

And these are not very mobile dudes. Cody is a little bit more than Quentin Spain, but not really say much because Quinn's a big guy. but since this offseason has kind of taken shape and what they saw at the end of last year when they were their most successful blocking was when they were putting more outside zone concepts in when they were doing more pin and pull because Mitch Morse is a nightmare on pin and pull he's so good at it at it because he's so so stinking athletic and so this year they've really they have leaned into it last year they drafted Spencer Brown I think on his relative athletic score he's a perfect 10 yeah and Tommy Doyle is like a 9.97. He's a backup. They go out and get Roger Saffold in his draft year. He's in the nines as a guard. We even think about where he came from. He came from Tennessee where when they started running that offense when he was signed there, there was all outside zone stuff. And I mean, they've since tweaked it a little bit.

But then Scott Cuisenberry as well. Yeah. Because he right now has been switching off snaps with Spencer Brown or right tackle was coming back from injury. Cuisenberry was on the Titans last year. They do a ton of that. So if you're trying to pick up a little stuff along the way of what is this going to look like? Oh yeah. Comer coming from where he comes from. He was last the Rams offensive line coach for several years when the Rams really majored in that outside zone running scheme. And then you have two guys coming from Tennessee, even if Quis and Bear is not going to start, that did a lot of that over the last couple years. If you're trying to find signs, I think those are the three that pick up on.

Yeah, and Ryan Bates is also another super athletic guy. The Bears tried to sign him. Don't tell people in Chicago. They thought he was fucking Quentin Nelson. He's good. And he had a really nice long stretch, and they loved him. But yeah, he's he's someone that fits that profile too. And Sean McDermott has always been sneakily obsessed with zone concepts.

The first offensive coordinator that they hired was Rick Denison. He was the offensive line coach for the Shanahan Broncos teams way, way back when. Exactly. He's Mike Shanahan's guy. And when those concepts weren't working, I remember hearing a story about how, you know, McDermott kind of pulled Denison. and a few of the key players into like a room and go, okay,

we need to figure some stuff out here because Denison was kind of that, okay, we're going to keep smashing our head against the wall and not change our concepts, but they started to run the ball better because they started to work in more power concepts. And that's when that kind of all changed. But that all went away

because when they hired Brian Daibel, they kind of gave him complete autonomy because of how much experience he had. Now, because McDermott is so, much more established as a head coach heading into his sixth year. That love for zone concepts, that just doesn't go away overnight. He knows how difficult it is to defend. They've even leaned into it as well by signing OJ Howard to maybe do some more two tight end stuff.

So I think what this thing could look like is a little bit more too tight end stuff, a little bit more zone concepts, a lot more pin and pull, a lot more athletic type of stuff. and certainly play action, I think, is going to be under center play action. Yes, under center play action because they really started to get their groove last year when they were running more efficiently, not more, just more efficiently, and bringing in the more under center play action. So that's where I think that it could be a little bit different. And maybe instead of being a complete passing Maven, maybe that gets dialed back just a little bit. but they still know what they are and that's a passing team.

And they really found something last year, I think, when they started using Reggie Gilliam Moore. And they signed him to a two-year extension. It's about being able to play the game however you need to play the game. If they're giving you looks or you're trying to manipulate them in a way, like we can run right now. It's important to be able to do that.

To run when they're forcing you to run is important. And I also think that if you can line up with two tight ends, if you can use some 21 personnel, get teams in base defense and slinging around on them, and that's also what they were doing at the end of last year. So I think those elements, that would expect all of that. Structurally, I think the offense will mostly be the same.

And I think a couple tweaks as A McKenzie is going to be a much bigger part of what they do over the course of the season. And you can just feel the juice when he's on the field. It's just different. Like, James and Crowder is a fine player. But that game we got from McKenzie last year, I don't think was a fluke based on everything I've heard and the way he's moving around out here during camp. Yeah. He has improved himself against Zone, which was the biggest thing for him and his confidence catching the ball. You know, the ball security has been an issue here or there for McKenzie, but one of the huge talking points this offseason has been about generating more yards after the catch point.

I've heard it multiple times this week. Oh, yeah. I'm sure. But Josh, Josh Allen has worked this offseason to deliver over the middle more accurately. It's a big thing for them, but you're not getting yards after Captain James and Crowder too often. and Isaiah McKenzie, he's like a little rocket waiting to sprint up the field if you give him that space. And so that's why I think you might see a lot more, a lot less jet sweep stuff, but like motion, swing passes, get him out in some open space, slants. I think he can win against man.

But he's doing so much more of a proficient job of finding those weak spots against zone this summer. And that's one of the biggest improvements that I've seen from him, which is why he's playing as competently as he has. So, yeah, I think the season starts today. Isaiah is the slot guy. I'm not sure how much Jameson Grouter can do over the next three weeks to change that. But he is good depth is what he is. And they know they can depend on him. But Isaiah is going to be a fun little piece of this offense.

I love watching this team in the moves they make because they always make sense. So by the end of last season and early on last season, I think that Josh was really struggling with, I have to take what's there. Defenses are really putting a roof over us. I have to make sure that I rein in my ambition. and take what's there. The second Patriots, the non-win Patriots game. I can't remember the order of them. The non-win Patriots game.

He had so many plays where he's just like, you know what? I'm checking it down. You know what? I'm checking it down. And if defenses are going to force you to check it down, or force you to take a layups, let's find ways to make the layups the most efficient explosive version of them that we can. So you get a guy like Isaiah McKenzie in the mix, and that's what James Cook does.

By having James Cook here, it's like, all right, if we have to throw the ball to our running backs, let's make sure those aren't wasted plays. place. Let's see if we can turn a four-yard completion into a 20-yard game. So when you're looking at everything they do, it's like, I understand why this is happening because it aligns with everything they need to do to kind of keep evolving. And why Brandon Bean was so pissed off when J.D. McKissick chose to go back to the commanders. Because that means he would... We don't say commanders on this show.

Sorry. What do we say? Washington. It's Washington. Washington football team. No commanders. I did not know. I apologize for my sin.

This is, that's a great point because, And if you want to talk about another little breadcrumb to the Shanahanism, I mean, they might go with three running back, three running backs this year with Moss, Singletary, and Cook. But be it as it may, they have been actively trying to replace Devin Singletary as a pass catcher for the last couple of years. They weren't able to do it as well. Last offseason, this off season, they tried twice. We're successful the second time. I think so it's a separate conversation about what Cook's role could ultimately be in his rookie. season as compared to what he can be in future years.

This year, I think it's going to be a little bit confined. His past pro still isn't great. So that might take some reps away from him on the field. But there's also the option for them to have Moss or Singletary in the backfield and then to split James Cookout wide. They've done it a bunch. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that, but they've done it a decent amount over the last couple days.

That is very much in the possibilities of how they could do it with, along with like, three wide receivers at that point, what are you doing as a, as a, as a defense? How are you defending them? Who are you putting on James Cook? Because it's a really smooth route runner for a running back. I mean, you could see it just in the way he kind of like glides through his cuts and little running back drills. So he's he's someone that I think that they they like in a confined role. I don't think it's going to be like a humongous thing in his rookie year because they usually take it slow with their rookie guys. But they are excited about him. I just kind of think Josh is really good and there's not much to talk about.

about. Coming into last year, part of me was still, I needed to see it a little bit more because I do think that there were aspects of their offense, whether it was broken plays or kind of second reaction throws, they were a huge part of what they did. It's like, if they keep him in the box a little bit more, what does he end up looking like? And I think by the end of last year, I no longer worried about that. He's just an alien and he's going to be one of the best players in the league for a really long time. Is that just kind of how you see it now? Are there any lingering things where it's like, eh, he still needs to fine tune this a little bit. What is fascinating about him and caught onto this in his second year is if he screws up one week, he fixes it within like one to two weeks.

It's immensely smart. It doesn't. I think that people just always forget that. It just, I've never seen a quarterback do it that way. Like usually a quarterback makes a mistake and you know, oh, got to go back, got to get better. And then they do the same shit three weeks later, right? Josh doesn't do that. And that's why when I started to go, okay, this might be different here.

And he like that pocket presence is perfect. Now he's manipulating defenders with his eyes. I remember one play against the Rams, 2020, the pandemic year. I think it was week three. The Rams were trying to make a huge comeback with Jared Goff. And they were almost successful. I think the final score of that game was like 35. It was an incredible game.

Yeah. Josh, on a third in 22, there was this entire crown of defenders over the middle of the field all around Cole Beasley. He did a nuanced little three step to the right to move himself. The entire defense goes with him because he knows he can screw with him because he's a mobile threat. And they know he likes to run it. They all move. He is eyes down someone else on the other side of the field and then comes back to Beasley in this little pocket that exists.

Just very tiny one hits him for it. Beasley falls. forward for three yards and they wind up converting on the third and 22. They end up scoring on that driving win the game. Like that was a moment where I'm like, okay, he hasn't done stuff like that before. And yeah, he's he is an immensely talented player. And even when the rushing isn't as prevalent in his game, I think he's going to find a nice little sweet spot as a passer in the pocket, outside of the pocket, improvisational stuff,

where he's going to be just fine moving forward. Personnel-wise, are we worried enough about the state of the offensive line and how good the players are? Because you look at it. Roger Saffold, big name. Roger Saffold knocked a lot of guys around in his career. Roger Saffold, as a past protector, has left something to be desired over the last couple years. He's like 33 years old. I mean, this happens to people as they get older.

Ryan Bates, great story. Very happy for Ryan Bates, the fact that he got this deal and really came on strong at the end of last year. We haven't seen Ryan Bates start more than like, What? Five, six games. Yeah, that's it. Spencer Brown was not a full-time player last year, was a rookie mid-round pick, comes in, eventually steals that job away, but hasn't had a huge track record.

Again, he's switching off staffs right now with Quezenberry, even if that's injury-related, they're still moving, you know, they're still whatever. I'm looking at that group. It's like in pure drop-back situations where they just have to sit there and pass block. Do we feel okay about them? Maybe we should, but that's something that I'm just interrogating a little bit. Yeah, I think Dion is fine. I think Mitch Morris is fine in past protection.

Saffold, I haven't seen enough because he's practiced like, I don't know, 17 team drill snaps so far in camp because of a ribs injury. Bates, I think, will be okay based on what I saw in film. He moves really well and he works really well with others on combo blocks. The guy I'm worried about is Spencer Brown. His first four games, he came in like a bat out of hell. He was awesome. And to the point where they thought, wow, they have this huge 6'8, 320-pound guy who moves around like a wide receiver.

He's a massive person. Yeah, he's just, he's just absolutely humongous. And they thought to themselves, wow, they could, we could really be on to something. But as a season went along, like, people started to get tape on him. And he oversets a little bit too much. And he's, you know, a little bit susceptible to the inside move. Von Miller hit him on a, he tried, he went wide for the first two steps and instant spin inside instant win. It was just an insane rep.

But that's the type of. up with Spencer Brown that we saw a lot more of as the season went on. Does he start to think too much? The run blocking needs to be a little bit better for him too. He takes a few penalties as well. I think for him and for them, that is the major point of weakness because he wasn't the same after those first four games. He was one of their worst performing players down the stretch of the year. So yeah, that to me is the biggest concern on offense. Personnel-wise. Yeah, personnel-wise. But you have Josh Allen who bails them out. constantly.

And you have to take into account, right? If you have to skimp on certain things, this is a guy who mitigates pressure almost as well as any other quarterback in the league, not named Patrick Mahomes at this stage of things. And when you have that guy, I think it's smart to build around what he does well. Moving to the defense, again, most of the same guys were used to. I mean, they were trying to replace Levi-Wallis for years, it seemed like. They finally made a big aggressive move in the draft to go do that with Kyriea. But other than that, I mean, a couple underlying depth pieces from this year's

draft. I think they like Benford, the rookie corner. He's gotten some snaps here with Therdavious Whiteout. What's this, the third linebacker's name? Terrell Bernard. He also seems to be having a pretty decent camp. So there's more depth on this team than I think there probably has been in the last couple years. Dane Jackson and guys like that where if somebody gets hurt, those are the players that you're relying on. So the fact that the second and third layers of the defense may have a little bit more young talent on it than it has in years past is a good thing. And then it's Vaughn Miller. Is there anything I'm really missing about what the difference in approach or personnel on defense might be for a team that finished first in defensive VUA last year?

Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing that they did was they completely reshaped their defensive tackle room outside of that. That's right. That's right. Dequan Jones is here. I think he's going to be a pretty nice player for them as a defensive. Tim Settle. Tim Settle. Oh, he's funny.

I've heard nothing but good things about you guys and Tim Settle. He's very funny. Jordan Phillips is back for a second Buffalo stint. And those, like three of those four guys can play. both defensive tackle positions in this defense, the three and the one. And Ed Oliver is low-key, great when he has to play one technique. He's small, his arms are small, but when he has to take on a double team, he just turns into a tree trunk and he just doesn't get up any ground. It's crazy because of how strong he is in the lower half.

So that's been the biggest change, which, by the way, Ed Oliver might be, he might be in line for a breakout season here. He's been really impressive. But the cornerback group is the one that leads me to be a little bit concerned about what they could be early on. I think the pass rush is going to be better this year. But it's almost as though they switched from what they were last year because the pass rush was good, but they didn't finish. Like Jerry Hughes, still a really effective pass rusher, didn't finish in the backfield all that often. That's going to be changing with Von Miller and they're hoping with Ed Oliver. But the cornerback group, that is some cause for concern because Tredavius White,

I haven't seen him work out intensely on the side during practice since like day five or six of camp. Maybe he's doing it out elsewhere, but he hasn't done it to this point. And the three guys that they've had taking first team reps, Dane Jackson, Kyir Ilan, the first round pick, and Christian Benfer, the sixth round pick. Jackson has been inconsistent. Elam has really struggled this summer. And to the point where I think there's a chance we could see him on Saturday against the Coles in the first preseason game, where they usually rest all those top guys.

So, and he and Jackson have allowed this six-round pick, Christian Benford, out of nowhere from Villanova, longer arms that they like, good size, seems really poised. But he is now in the starting conversation if White isn't ready to go. And he's like number 46. 47. Yeah, 47. It looks disgusting. It's disgusting. But he had a really nice rep against Stefan Dix today.

During 11-11. And I was like, okay. A guy had a conversation with a member of the personnel department yesterday. and we were talking about just guys that I'm not thinking enough about. And he's like, Benford, the corner has been really good. And I was like,

okay. And then you watch him today. It's like, all right, I see it. I get it. I understand it. The most impressive thing to me is even when he gets beaten at the initial part of the snap,

he has so much poised to work back. Elam, I think is thinking a little bit too much right now. And that's common for corners in their first year, especially when you're going up against a high power to offense in practice. It's just a tonne eggs all the time. Yeah. There's a lot of about to do with that.

100%. But like Benford, he's also doing the same stuff. And he's like, look down the same plane. Maybe it's like, okay, this guy's a six round pick. So he shouldn't look this good. So he looks better in my eyes. But I don't think that's the case. I think if you're looking at it just from, okay, I don't know their draft pick.

Who has been more impressive to this point? I would see Benford. That's wild. I know. And he's a six round pick. I've been joking with some reporters that he's Sean McDermott's new Levi Wallace. because small school, under-recruited, all of this other stuff. Well, Levi wasn't small school, but he was a walk-on.

They loved Levi's story. Sean McDermott loves a good underdog. That's just like his story to a T-2. So I think he might have found a new favorite in the back field. I think they'll be a very good defense. I don't think they'll be the best defense in the league because I'm finding reasons to be skeptical about the bills. I was talking with Wesley Frazier this morning. And in prep for that, I was going back and watching a lot of old games last night.

I was trying to look back and say, which quarterbacks that they played, this plan is what they want their defense to be, right? It's, we don't have to, we can't do anything one specific thing because this guy's too good. There aren't that many options with the quarterbacks they played last year. It's really just the Bucks game. Other than that, you've got Saints in there. You've got two Dolphins games, two Jets games, two games against the Patriots, one of which the Patriots threw the ball three times.

And also, Mac, if you look at the ways that teams handled him last year, they were just willing to turn up the heat. They had a lot of pressure sent after him last season. So if you're looking at, all right, this is just a game where they had to be honest. Even the Chiefs games, you have to play a hyper-specific way against the Chiefs. So their stretch of offense as they played last year was weird if you're being generous and bad if you're not. And that to me is a key thing to remember when you're thinking about the ceiling of this defense and where we expect them to fall. Yeah, that's a great point. And they, a lot of times when you become the number one defense in DVOA, you also have to have some luck of the schedule.

Yes. You play a lot of bad quarterbacks. And God, that Saints game was just a complete mess. Who is it Trevor Sitt me in, I think? I think it was. Yeah, it doesn't even matter. You name the quarterback. It truly doesn't matter.

But they played Mike Wilson or no, what's his name? Mike White, yes. And they exposed Mike White. He threw like three interceptions in the first half or something like that. Like this, they did have a lot of good four. and how the schedule panned out, and it helped them go on their run. But yeah, I think tempering those expectations for them to be the absolute best, and I'm also a year older in certain areas, too.

Like both Poyer and Hyde are entering their age 31. They're great. Don't get me wrong. Hyde is, to me, one of the best free safeties in the game. He has such an impact on the game that no one even knows unless you're watching the film. Poirers is a really good strong safety when he's lining up down in the box. Then you always have to think about, okay, how much juice is Vaughn going to have throughout the year? Because he's up there too.

He probably will. I mean, you look great at the end of last year, but these are things you have to consider with how they could kind of come down. They've got a tough schedule. A lot of good offenses they're playing this year. Yeah, I don't know that they're going to be number one again, but I think they should, with the talent that they have, be pretty comfortably, another top 10. And that's okay, though. Yeah. And that's, if they're the seventh best defense in the league, the eighth best defense in the league, and Josh Allen is the player that we think he is, that has.

that has the potential to be the best team in football. That's an okay version of what this looks like. To that end. What does it feel like here right now compared to years past? I know last year there was a lot of optimism, right? Justifiably so. But they kind of got beat up in the 2020 AFC championship game. They did not look like a team that was on the same tier as the Chiefs.

Their season last year ended very differently. You can absolutely talk yourself into this idea that we were the best team last year. We didn't get the breaks, but we were the best team last year. So is it we expect that we can do this now or is it last year was our shot and we missed it? Which do you feel is stronger as it relates to the narrative around this team? I think it's the expectation route. And I think the fact that they changed so much with what they were doing in terms of pass rushing last year and a lot of personnel uprooting, I think that helps kind of push aside the hurt from the previous one. because the one thing they did from 2020 to 2021 is they didn't change all that much.

They re-signed a bunch of guys. They locked into that version of it. Like the guys, the dice rolls that they had spent one-year deals on, the Darrow Williams is of all of those guys. It's like, all right, we're locked into this version of who we are. We've committed to this. I remember feeling that way last year. And they didn't go out on a limb for a free agent other than like bringing in a draft pick in Greg Rousseau. That was their biggest switch on defense.

But this year, they made legitimate changes to make it feel. not as stale. Cole Beasley's gone. Manuel Sanders gone. Jerry Hughes is gone. Mario Addison is gone. Star Latulah is gone. God, fans hated Star Latulah but all of those pieces are now

gone to where the roster is different enough to where people can get over what happened at the end of the year last year and still enough of the good bones of it is great to where people can go okay, they might be on to something here and adding the pieces that they did

Von Miller is obviously humongous, but even just the interior promotions, Gabe Davis going from WR4 to W. I was going to finish this, is the Gabe Davis breakout really coming in the way that people think it is. Yeah. I mean, they have done so, so much to where they now should have a better team than what they had last year. But as you pointed out, are they going to have as much fortune with the schedule as what they had last year? So, so yeah. But Gabe Davis, the dude he has grown so much since his rookie season. Maybe where he had some trouble separating in his first season, he's doing a lot better in the intermediate areas.

That's where he's winning more now. We know he's a good down-the-field guy. The one spot that I think Gabriel Davis is so good that goes a bit under the radar is he is such a good improvisational route and getting back to the ball in finding the angle and what will work best for Josh Allen and where he's going and shielding himself with the defender. It's such a finite skill set that not every receiver has, but like when you spot one that's really great at it, they're like, wow, he's he's really working hard. Like Stefan Diggs, he does not always the best at working back and, you know, sprinting from the left side of the field all the way to the right and deep down the sideline to try and give Josh Allen target.

But that's where I think you're going to see him win quite a bit this year because we know Josh likes to scramble. We know he likes to get out of the pocket and move the defense a bit. And so I think there are some opportunities for him there. But I don't know that it's going to be like an every week like Gabriel Davis breakout immense. Because he also had some clunkers even when he was starting down the stretch last year. I think half of his games were for under 50 yards, if I'm not mistaken, that he started anyway. So this he is the spike weeks are Absolutely in his arsenal

I think he's going to be The most talented number two receiver Diggs has played with since he's been in Buffalo And I think he could help unlock Diggs a little bit as well For the yards after catch Maybe taking some attention away You know the double team thing is often overstated And you know

Maybe less of a shade his way from a safety Attention is the right word Yeah exactly Joe that's all I got man This was really fun I mean this is the team. It's fun to be up here and be around a team that has these sorts of expectations. You can feel it when you're at, especially in a way training camp like this, where

fans coming out to be here. It definitely has the vibe of a team that expects to win a Super Bowl this year, and that's always enjoyable. Yeah, it should be fun. They think they can do it all, and this might be the best roster they ever had, so let's see what they can do. Well, I'm sure it won't. And in heartbreaking fashion, this team is not used to heartbreak whatsoever. Job Sky, thank you very much, my friend.

Everyone should be listening to Buffalo Beat. If you are a Bill's fan, especially your podcast that you do on the Athletic Network with Matt Fairburn now, who is back, which is very exciting. Love that for all of us. I love that for absolutely love that for all of us. If you are Bill's fan and you are not listening to Buffalo Beat with Joe and Matt, I would highly encourage you guys to check it out. We will catch up down the road, my friend. I am very sure of it. Sounds good, Robert.

Thanks for having me. All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much for DJ. Thank you to Joe Biscalia. I really enjoyed that conversation. It's always great to catch up with Daniel. He's thinking about stuff that I just don't think about enough. We will be back on Monday.

Until then, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. Please subscribe to The Athletic. Theathletic.com slash football show. You can read all Joe's work there on the Bills. If you're a Bills fan and you're not subscribed to The Athletic, I truly don't know what you're doing with your life. Same goes for all of the teams with writers that we're going to talk to on this trip. The information you can glean from the work these guys do every single day is unbelievable.

I highly encourage you guys to go check out a subscription. Even it's just for your fantasy draft. Figuring out who's getting reps, who's getting run, who's playing with the ones, who looks good in camp. That's the type of stuff you can get at the athletic that you cannot get anywhere else. Theathletic.com slash football show. Please go check it out. We'll be back on Monday.

Until then, enjoy your weekend. I'm going to spend some time in New York. I'm really looking forward to that. It's a fun little stretch of this trip. So go have fun. Go out and get a meal. Go out and hang out with your friends. We'll talk to you on Monday.

Appreciate you guys listening. Talk to you soon.