The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Mailbag: A new team for Lions fans, Eagles needs, rookie QB expectations & more with Mike Sando

Episode Date: October 19, 2021

Mike Sando, Senior Writer of The Athletic NFL, host of the Football GM here on the Athletic Football Show, and Pro Football Hall of Fame Voter returns to the Mailbag portion of things as we hit week 7 and react to week 6. Lions fans are seeking out a new team to root for, and we might have the perfect answer. Who would you rather manage going forward - the Miami Dolphins or New York Giants? What should we realistically expect from rookie QBs in 2021? These questions and more voicemails and emails from YOU on a new Athletic Football Show with Robert Mays. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. The Athletic Football Show. Today is Tuesday, October 19th. I'm Robert Mays. I'm very excited to welcome today. My good buddy, Mike Sando. Mike, how you doing? I'm doing well, thank you.

I appreciate you doing this. We had such a good time. The first time you did one of the mob bags that I figured we would have you back. If you're up to me, you would just do this every single week, but you're a busy person. So I'm not going to ask you to do that. You also already host the show on this feed for people who do not know. You host the Football GM with Randy Mueller on Saturdays. You can find that on the athletic Apple Audio Plus side of things.

So please go check that out if you have not already. But we're going to steal you to do this as often as we can, Sando. So unfortunately, you're stuck with me here. I love doing it. I like the visceralness of hearing the voices. It is great. Because no one does voicemails really anymore. Like if, you know what I mean?

If you called me and left a voicemail, I'd just call you back before I even listen to it. You know, that's what everybody does. And we actually get to hear it. There's like something lost there. So I like it. I totally agree. As a, the most analog, 34-year-old man in America, it definitely resonates with me. So this is definitely, it vibes with who I am as a person.

All right, speaking of those voicemails, let's get to our first one. Hey, Robert. I'm glad to hear you doing it with Sando again this week. My question for you is kind of a fun one. If you could take one player and just switch him to another team or another scheme, another coordinator, who would you switch and just drop them onto that team? I've got kind of

a chooper for you that I think you would like taking Chris Godwin and Corey Davis and putting them on the Niners for their blocking and their route running. I think they would thrive with Kyle Sanahan. I love the question. That is Nate Tice's fever dream

as having those two guys in that type of offense, so I'm glad that we could speak to Nate in that way. I love stuff like this. These are some of my favorite questions than we get. I had a couple that came to mine, but Mike, why don't you go first? Who jumped to the forefront for you here? I just think it would be so fun to put Derek

Henry on the bills because it's just such a thing that wouldn't happen. But there's such a passing team and all that, but they have this quarterback who's a lumberjack. I mean, he's just he's a problem. He's like Cam Newton Light. He's just this huge dude. He can throw it all over. 300 pounds of combined

running back and quarterback. It'd be absolutely ridiculous. Or 500. He's 500 pounds. Yeah. Could you imagine him closing out games with Therick Henry or just having just having him as one of their guys on early downs. I just, I mean, it would be so unfair, but he's just such a unique player. So you could probably put him on any team, but I just think that team, you know, that sort of has it all right now anyway would be hilarious. It's funny that you mentioned the bills because I had Terry McCorren and I wanted to put him on the bills. I just want to see him with a cannon armed quarterback that can push the ball down the field so we can just see what Terry McClorn is really like. because that's what I was hoping was going to happen this year.

I think the guy's legitimately a star, and we've never gotten to see him play with decent quarterback play. Last year was such a disaster for them. And when they signed Fitzpatrick, I was like, here we go. Like for all of Ryan Fitzpatrick's shortcomings, pushing the ball down the field and getting chunk plays is not one of them. And then, of course, as Patrick gets hurt in week one, Heineke has no shortage of confidence in his ability to do that,

but he doesn't have the armed to make the most of it. So we still haven't seen that. I would love to see McCorn on a wide open, kind of slinging around team like Buffalo or like the Bucks, you know, a team that really likes to push the ball vertically. I would just love to see him in that sort of offense. The other two I had, I would love to see James Robinson on the Cowboys. Like, their varied run game. I think he's such a great pure runner.

Some of these names getting tossed around on the trade market, whether it's Marlon Mac or somebody like that and on the veteran running back trade market. If I were a team that needed a running back, I'd be calling Jacksonville. right now. A team that's rebuilding, a regime that didn't draft him. They drafted a running back in the first round in this year's draft. I think he's a legitimately good player, and I would love to see him in

kind of a varied run game like the Cowboys have. Those are good ones. All right, let's get to our first email. This is from Kendrick Oakford. I wanted to ask you this, Mike, because you are the man of the quarterback tiers. He asks, has Lamar moved into Tier 1 status, or is he in the process? It seems like the sky is the limit for him, right now.

Curious where you stand and kind of, I don't know, how you're feeling about where Lamar might descend to or move to when you do the quarterback tiers exercise next year. Yeah, so he comes in very high in the second tier with the, you know, the incredible run game that he brings and the offense around him with passing production that is largely off of that, right? I mean, the threat that he and they pose is unique in the league. So if you think that, hey, because everything runs through them already, And he's just unique and dynamic that way.

Some people already have him in Tier 1 for that. But those who don't, and the reason he doesn't make it up there all the way, is because there's a lot of people who think those guys, whether it's Rogers, Mahomes, Wilson, maybe Deck Prescott's. That's who I think of is most likely to ascend in Tier 1 of the other guys. You could put them anywhere in any system. You don't have to draft 17 tight ends and run a certain way to do it. And so that has been a little bit of a barrier for him in combination with the walls they've run into at times in the playoffs.

I don't think after six games that someone who had him in Tier 2 is going to be like, wow, these six games have completely changed everything. They did have a really nice comeback against the Colts, which is something you often hear about Quarterbacks. Well, if it's all in them and they have to come back, well, check that box a little bit. That was a nice comeback. But you watched the game yesterday, and it's a, I mean, were you impressed with how he threw the ball yesterday? There was some scattershot moments. I mean, I saw exactly what you tweeted that two minutes, in the two minutes row where they had that kind of torpedoed possession. And yeah, I mean, that was not a great moment for him.

It's not a great game for him. But the way he played against the Colts, I mean, that's the type of game where no play action, spread out, sling it around. If we get another half dozen of those by the end of the season, then I think it's a real conversation. Absolutely. That is the type. He's been effective from the pocket in the past. I don't want to make it seem like that's the differentiation

I'm making between the version we're seeing now and the version we've seen for the last couple years. But I think that what he's doing just with a spread out non-play action passing game at times this year, there is steps. The way he's pushing the ball outside of the numbers, his accuracy to that area of the field. I think there are incremental improvements that have been made that if he shows them over time should shift the conversation. and just the way we talk about the breadth of what he's capable of.

Yep. Yeah, no, I agree with you. I think after six games, it's a little early, but he's certainly somebody who gets watched closely every year, and then at the end it sort of defines it fairly or not, right? It's going to be fascinating to watch. Like you mentioned, Dak, I'm curious where Kyler's going to shake out. Oh, yeah.

We talked a lot on yesterday's show about kind of the quarterback halves and have knots in the league and how you can feel the difference. You can feel when a team has one of those guys and when one doesn't, And I think that what that group looks like at the end of this season is going to be something that I'm going to keep tabs on. Because I don't know how it's going to shake out, but I absolutely could see some movement between those first couple tiers based on what we've seen through the first month and a half of the year. Absolutely. And isn't it amazing how, like, you know, you would have said maybe Herbert's going to be there. And he probably will be.

But then you watch the game yesterday. And you're like, you know, it is a humbling league week to week, right? And you can look amazing and look bad. And we have to sort of take it all in at the end of the year and see. see what the feel is. But I feel pretty darn good about Dak. I think he was heading there a year ago, you know, when he got hurt. So he's come back amazingly.

It's funny. I mean, Justin Herbert's 20 starts in his career. Like, it's going to be okay. One kind of rough moment that he has, that one rough day against the team that is famously difficult to play against. I mean, even if they don't have the best talent on that side of the ball right now and they have a couple obvious holes, this is still a defense. defensive consistently has been very good over the last few years and makes things consistently

difficult on quarterback. So every once in a while, I think a guy in his second year, 20 starts it is going to have a rough day against a good defense. I fell into this too, Rob. You know, we were all, we've all been so kind of enamored by Staley, right? And so I went into this game like, I'm really interested to see what Staley does with Lamar, you know, his mentor, Fangio played him a couple weeks ago. And then you're just like, wait a minute, guys, the defense here is Baltimore. They're the defense. They're the team that has a defensive. pedigary and they really showed it in that game. So sorry Ravens if we overlooked you, but your defense carried the day.

Only one of those coaches has a viral moment pretty much every single day at this point on the internet. It's not John Harbaugh. So, all right. Let's get to our next voicemail here. Speaking of rookie quarterbacks and young quarterbacks. Hi, Robert. My question is, what a realistic expectation for the rookie QBs this season?

You know, every time there's a good game, people think that they're doing incredible, there's a bad game, why aren't they doing better? And when we've been spoiled with the lights of like Dak and Justin Herbert and Russell Wilson in their rookie seasons and then some of the older quarterbacks on previous stuff like Manning and others taking a bit of time to develop, what should be a reasonable expectation of signs of progress by the end of this year? So Kane Baker, who is also from the UK, and has decided for some reason to be a Jets fan, which I'm so, so sorry about that. He asked a similar question. So I wanted to kind of hit both of these. I'm curious, Mike, in the conversations you've had with people around the league, what is the temperature that you've kind of taken about the rookie quarterbacks? And when you talk to guys around the NFL about young quarterback progress, what are they looking for? Like, what are the benchmarks when we're talking about guys maybe in their first or second year in the league?

and how does that differ from guys that maybe you're five, six years into their career? Yeah, I think the first thing you look at is the situation you go into. That really sets your expectations. I did a column order this year when, you know, fields looked horrible in that game, you know, against, I think it was Cleveland. And so many of these teams have bad offensive lines that these guys you're going into it. I think that really affects the expectation of what you are going to see in their first time out. And let's face it, most of these guys that you drafted high, they're going to teams that are bad. So I do look for signs of differentiation that they can do it on their own, that they have special traits, right?

That they don't just look completely overwhelmed. I think the expectations are different for different guys. Like I think for Trevor Lawrence, we're expecting more. For Trey Lance, we know how raw he is. And if you watched him against Arizona, I mean, it was remedial. You know, and the ball's coming out late or not at all, and the receivers are kind of their body language. You know, that's a totally different situation to me than. than a Trevor Lawrence or even a Mac Jones, right?

Mac Jones may be closer to his ceiling for sure than some of those that are guys. So I do think that you don't want to see complete clueless overwhelmed. We can't run our offense. I think that's almost a bad sign no matter what, right? I mean, if you just look like you can't do it, I don't know how many of those guys later look great. So I don't know if that answers the question, but it's a little bit complicated and a little unique to each guy. situation. I feel like the number one thing that I would look for is just feel for the position.

Do you look like you're in the right place, like as an NFL quarterback? And that to me is the most encouraging part of what Lawrence has looked like over the last couple weeks. And he clearly understands the mechanics of the position, what he's looking at, how to create plays within the pocket, feel within the pocket. Right now, in the NFL, he ranks third in the league, according to PFF, and the percentage of his pressures that turn into sacks. That's really impressive for a young quarterback.

And anecdotally, when you watch him, you can feel that. And that is a huge aspect of his game. And it's an impressive part of his game. Justin Fields is the last. And that also is not surprising when you've seen what that offense has looked like at times. So in that area, it's like, all right, well, his feel in the pocket and his internal clock isn't as developed as Lawrence is. So what are we looking for?

Does he have the splash throws? Does he have the arm talent? I mean, it's different for every single guy. To me, the most important thing is, do they look like they're out of place? And if the answer is no, are they consistently progressing in the right direction? Are there going to be moments every single week where it's like, all right, that we're making progress here? The timeline is going to be different for the exact reason you said about Mack Jones. There's so much less room that Jones has to grow than a guy like Trey Lance.

So maybe he looks better right now, but that's not what we're trying to do here. It's who's going to look better two years from now when we're trying to look better two years from now when we're trying to find one of the guys. And we're trying to figure out where they're going to fit in the hierarchy ultimately. So it's a difficult thing to parse. But for me, it's, are they making consistent progress and do they look the part? Those are the two things. They're going to be terrible, terrible moments. And not every single week can be a referendum on whether or not those guys are good or bad or failures or whatever. But I do think it's about watching the line going in a certain direction the entire time. Yep. And you're going to, but you're going to have up some

down within that. I always laugh when, totally. I forget one of the analysts was like, yep, better game from Fields today. That's better than last week. And that's just because he's got more experience. Well, guess what? He's going to look way worse in three weeks. Or, you know what I mean? You're just

going to have those games. So I think you do have to plot it out over the course of the season. And just feel like, I always kind of put it this way. Do I feel like I want to see more? You know, it's just you sort of know when you're watching. Well, I think what you're talking about, the instincts, and I sort of phrased it a little bit, like,

I don't want to feel like they don't belong or that it's too overwhelming for them, you know, that they can sort of, they can swim, right? You're throwing these guys into a lake, and some of them just disappear into the surface, and others flail around, and some of them swim. I want to see some swimming. All right, let's get to our next voicemail. Hey, Robert. Hey, Mike. My name is Cody Marman. I'm, go to Washington State University. And my question was about the Arizona

Cardinals, specifically their defense. I know offensively they get a lot of love because of Kyler and his MVP performance and all the receivers. But what exactly is the defense doing, especially from the linebackers and in the secondary for Arizona

to get up to this hot start? I really like this question because it gave me a chance to go back and watch the Cardinals defense over the last few weeks. We talked about them every once in a while. Obviously, the coaches tape from this week against the Browns is not up. But I went back and I watched the coach's film from the Rams game, which I had not watched yet because the last time we talked about it was right after the game. So it was good to kind of dig into this and find some fun nuggets about what they've been doing and how they've been able to be successful.

I know you found a couple of things. What jumped out to you when you started doing a little bit of research on what the Cardinals defenses look like this year? Yeah, you know, I watched a couple games kind of spun through them, but I also, you know, pulled up the final six games of last year and the first six this year. and just looked at what the difference was in some of the coverages running, figuring. That's kind of a little bit of a back-suffin question like Cody was asking about. And what we noticed is there's definitely a shift towards more zone coverage. They were about 47% zone last year. It's 64% this year.

So that's a pretty big shift. They went away from cover one towards cover two, it looks like here. I thought it was cover three, too, but I'm seeing cover two on here as what they really switch two more. And then I kind of adjusted for, you know, they've been ahead a lot this year, too. I even looked in the tighter score differential bans and that still held up. So I think they've got, you know, real juice up front. They probably had some questions in the secondary coming into the season at corner. And yet they have this offense that's scoring points. So it's probably a nice blend of being able to get after opposing quarterbacks, have the score in your favor, not have to do so much, take

so much risk on the back end and still able to function. I think the little tweaks that they've made in the overall approach, you can see that. And the numbers, like you said, they definitely are interesting. They're about 31% man overall right now, which ranks 10th in the NFL. Last year, they were 46, which ranked 3rd. So there's definitely a drop there. And within the zone defenses that they're playing, they're still bringing a decent amount of pressure.

But something that I found interesting is that last year, when they brought five or more, they played man on about 69% of their snaps. this year when they bring five or more, they're playing man on 43% of their snaps. That's a huge difference. And they're blitzing less, but they're still doing it a decent amount, and they're playing a lot of zone behind it.

So I think that for the most part, they've really kept offenses guessing because their overall approach this year looks different than it did last year. And then just on the field and what it's looked like, I think that they have a really good sense because they're well-coached about where the weaknesses in their deal,

defenses are and where their help is. There are a few moments in the Rams game that really jumped out to me where you have guys, especially corners like Byron Murphy, pushing Cooper Cup from the slot to his help knowing where it was, the space that their linebackers cover when they understand, all right, these are the weaknesses in zone when we're blitzing or when we're playing this type of coverage and just those guys kind of booking it to certain places,

understanding this is where I need to be. and then just the overall understanding of spacing that they seem to have. I mean, there was a play that really jumped out to me from the Rams game where they're playing cover two, like you said. They're playing Tampa 2, which they do a decent amount because their linebackers can cover so much ground. They have so much athleticism at those spots that whether it's Collins or Simmons, just kind of booking it to the post. They do that a decent amount. And they're running Tampa 2, and Marco Wilson got about 15 yards of depth underneath a wheel route. Cooper Cup was running from the slot.

So he's supposed to be covering the flat, but he's 15 yards into the defensive backfield because he understands he needs to carry that because the safety was covering the post. And he still made a play for a two-yard game on a dump off to Darrell Henderson in the flat. So I think that's just emblematic of what they've been able to do. It's like, all right, in theory, that you should be able to have one of these. You should be able to have the corner or the wheel or you should be able to have the flat because that corner on that side can't define.

them both, except on that play, he did. So they've been able to hide their corners in some of these zone defenses, but I think because of how well coached they are, because every single guy seems to understand this is the way the pieces fit together, they're playing better than the sum of the parts. Overall, they're playing better than the individual talent they have. And you see that with a lot of guys. Robert Alford is playing well. Murphy's playing well. The guy that jumps out to me all the time when I watch them is Jalen Thompson, who is a fifth round supplemental pick two years ago and play safety for them and just making plays all over the place. He's a big communicator on their defense.

And that's what you see when you have units playing better than we expect is guys that just step up in ways that maybe you didn't anticipate. And he's been one of those guys for them this year. And I think they have a bunch of them. And the other aspect to it at linebacker, they use the athleticism those guys bring. They ask them to cover so much ground. I think within those zones, it really allows them to just take space. space away. That's what they've done. They play fast. They take space away and they understand

where their help is and where they're weak. And I think that that's just a product of really, really good coaching all around. That's what I was going to say, you know, it's really a nice little reset for, for Vance Joseph, isn't it? Totally. You know what I mean? He was always somebody who heard good things about coming up, then had a bad experience instead of head coaching situation where you don't have a quarterback and it can, you know, it looked overwhelming at times. But this is just a nice reset for him and a really good job so far and I think we'll be hearing more about him. All right. Let's get to our next voicemail here. Paul in D.C. says, hey, Robert and Mike, the Eagles currently have three picks, Miami at number three, affiliate number eight and

India at number nine in the 2022 draft. If you're in Howey's shoes, what are the core needs of this team? It seems like for a once, wide receiver is not a worry. Do you trade down? Do you go for a quarterback like Rogers or Wilson. I want to ask you about this, Mike, because we haven't talked about the Eagles future very often, but I think looking at those picks and just the way the board might fall and considering where they might have to go at quarterback, I'm sure you've had conversations with people about this.

I'm curious what you've heard about the Eagles and what you think the next 12 months should look like for them. As they were compiling all those picks, I was thinking about, you know, is there a veteran quarterback they can go after? But I think they also are a team that got old in places, including on their offensive line, which always looks pretty good on, you know, the first day of training camp. And maybe even in the week one, and then like in the third quarter of their first game, they're bringing in the National Guard, you know, because they just don't have anybody left healthy. So I think one thing, I had a good conversation last night with somebody who was like, you know, I don't know how great. We have to see how great the quarterback prospects are in the draft from 2020.

too, right? I mean, what are you going to feel like, are you going to feel like that's going to solve it? I feel like they have to probably get one. I don't think, we'll see how the rest of the season goes with Jalen Hertz. I doubt you're going to have all this draft capital and just say, you know what, we're building around Jalen Hertz. I don't know that we're seeing enough for that.

So I think they have to keep those options on the table, but I just think of what is how he do? He builds on the lines. So with those types of picks, yes, you need to be able to try to try to get a quarterback, but maybe they're in the market for, you know, a tackle. Maybe they're in the market for a pathfresher. Some of those premium positions that are just good to target when you're up there anyway seem like positions where they're going to have needs. Looking at it, I thought, and maybe they had moved some money around just because they were

short on cap space or whatever, I thought they were more contracts they could easily get out of next year. And that just doesn't seem to be the case. I'm looking at the Brandon Brooks deal, Lane Johnson, kind of the aging guys they have on the defensive line, and they don't have as much financial flexibility as I thought they did. That may not prevent them doing anything, but that I would also go with like offensive line and defensive line potentially because of how old they've gotten in those spots. But it feels like a lot of those guys might have to still be on the roster because of the way that some of those contracts are structured, which is not something I had anticipated. I don't know why in my mind they had more flexibility in those spots next year. Yeah, it seemed like more of a reset, right?

Was possible. Exactly, exactly. And that just doesn't seem to be the case. So looking at what they have, I'm curious how they see themselves, right? So you're looking at it. They still have some guys on the defensive line. Like Hargraves playing out of his mind. You know, Cox is not as dominant as he was a few years ago, but he's still a useful player.

They obviously signed Josh Sweeto, contract extension. He's going to be around. The guys they have on the offensive line, they just re-signed Malata. Lane Johnson is still there. Jason Kelsey is under contract for next year. We'll see if Brandon Brooks can come back healthy. So if they look at those two groups and say, you know what, we're going to roll with these guys again.

Like even though they're older and even though we've had some injury issues, let's roll with this again. Where they have holes, like to find holes right now, like nobody on the roster is in the back seven. Right now, Darius Slay is under contract for next year. I think there are other three starters in the secondary, which are Rodney McLeod, Anthony Harris, and Stephen Nelson, none of those guys are under contract next year.

So it's possible that they could just find some playmakers in the back seven of their defense if they don't go get a quarterback, whether it's in the draft or because they have this aging core and because if they say, well, we'll bring all these guys back. We already have Devante Smith. Do they look at those picks and see them as currency to go get a veteran quarterback? That's my question. What do they think their timeline is? because I have no sense of that.

And I think the answer will ultimately depend on what their quarterback plan looks like. Yeah. And do you think, so you get all these picks, let's just say you had these picks and you could get, you know, a veteran quarterback. Rogers, is he going to want to, is Philly going to be on his highness list? Is that, is he going to look at Philly and go, geez, we can win it all there? I don't. I doubt it. I doubt it.

I doubt it. I doubt. You know, Russell Wilson, is that where, you know, are they going to be in on Deshaunne Watson when that comes down? That could be good because he's young enough that you could build around it. It's kind of interesting as you were naming off their secondary players. I mean, can we find one there that they drafted in the first three rounds? It has not gone very well. That has not been an area of strength for that.

I mean, is there one on the roster? Just interesting. I just think of how he's going after lines. Well, I don't know if drafted in the first few rounds, but Navante Maddox is a guy they drafted, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's just interesting. It's just kind of interesting looking at their team. He was a fourth round pick in 2018. But other than that, no. Yeah, I said first three rounds. So, yeah, he was a fourth round pick. I mean, it's just as you try to look at what a team is going to do, that's, I'm actually going to look at that, look and see what they've done in their back end because you could make a case. Steve Nelson's done a nice job for them as a cheap pickup. But, yeah, yeah, they're a little bit of a mystery, aren't. aren't they?

They really are. And I thought they were going to be a mystery coming into the season. So that's not a surprise. But I think with armed with all of those picks, it could just go so many different directions. And in order to make a prediction about that, I think you have to have a sense of how they view themselves. And I don't really have a sense for that. I think you can go a bunch of different directions here. But that hard reset button, it doesn't seem like that is a probable timeline in the way I might have thought maybe a year ago.

Yeah, see right now those three picks, right? In Paul's question here, are three, is it three, eight and nine? Is that what it is? Yeah, that's amazing. I don't know if it'll all be there, but just me looking at that. I mean, let's just say they're not in the give away all those picks to get Deshaun. Let's just say that's not it. And it would be so great if you could get, you know, two premium players at least with those top ones

and then move back with one, right? I mean, you know, move back with one and get some extra picks. You can sort of have the best of both worlds for your team. Because you've got to get impact players when you're that high. Then who plays quarterback? Yeah, well, maybe one of them is. Okay. Okay, so maybe you draft the quarterback there.

Maybe you draft a quarterback. Maybe you draft a quarterback. Maybe you get the best pass rusher or tackle. Or, you know, a corner if there's somebody there that you really love. And then maybe with that last pick, you know, let's just say, Indy's not, you know, India could win a few games if you just look at their schedule. Maybe the pick from Indy is 15. You know what I mean?

Or 16. And maybe you're on the edge there and you move back. Somebody see something they want. You move back, pick up a few picks. And that's where you find a safety or whatever, you know, or some other position, a linebacker, God forbid, they draft one. If this team, let's say, for example, just hypothetically, let's say they trade two first round picks for Russell Wilson. This team with Devante Smith, the offensive line that, again,

looks better on paper in August than it typically does by October. But let's say those guys in this case are healthy. You have Smith, you have Russell Wilson, you maybe you get, you know, patch up the back of the defense in some way. What do you think this team looks like with Russell Wilson? Do you think that's a worthwhile thing to pursue if you're the Eagles as currently constructed? I think, of course. I mean, I think those guys just make so much of a difference for your team that you're in every game.

I mean, just look at last night. Sunday night's game, I mean, if Russell Wilson's third, Seattle wins the game by four, seven, right? I mean, it's just the difference in the game. So I'd totally be in that. If I'm Seattle, I need to get a quarterback back of some kind, I think, because it's not like he can leave, right? I think your hope would be we get three picks in the top 15. That's where you find your quarterback. Yeah, yeah. So they would have to feel better about that than having Wilson. And then the Eagles who are already in that position would have to feel better about Wilson than they feel about that. they'd have to want to just trade total situations. It's fascinating. They're going to be the team to watch next off season

for this exact reason. I think there's a lot of moving parts on that. All right. Let's get to our next voicemail here. I really enjoyed this question. Hey, this is Ken. I was curious. Last week, you said that you thought Justin Jefferson

was one of the top five wide receivers in the league. I think. And so I'm curious if you would re-evaluate that trade for Stefan Diggs now, if you think that is still a good trade for the bills, given what we know now. Or, in other words, do you think Jefferson could provide the things that Diggs provides, which I know you said that Diggs gave the bills certain things they needed to make that offense work? And I'm curious if you think Jefferson could have given those things. as well. I love the show. Thanks for an answer. It's a fascinating hypothetical, right? And my answer to this is, I still think you make the trade if you're Buffalo 100 times out of 100.

Because you're paying for certainty there. It's a trade, one of those moves that I think worked out for both sides. Because if you look at it, they do need what Diggs provides them. And there's no way to know what a late first round pick is ultimately going to turn into. So I think

in that case, it makes total sides. I think if you drop Justin Jefferson out of the bills, they're just fine. I think he gives them a lot of what Diggs gives them. But I also think that it's the rare trade that was a positive for both parties involved. I totally agree. I think your thinking is great. But I think Ken is asking us what about what if we knew, let's just say it was certainty that Justin was going to be what he is.

Then what would you rather do? And if you put Jefferson on the bills, would you miss anything that Diggs is giving you? right and what would you rather have i think most of us from a contract standpoint would rather have a you know have have the rookie guy the young guy come in um i have a hard time wanting to change anything that happened with the bills and the digs trade it just worked out so perfectly but i agree yeah yeah so that's probably where i lean but if you have certainty with just Jefferson that's that's really good too and the young guy to grow together you know i think for last year I would still rather have Diggs than Jefferson.

Even though Jefferson was fantastic last year, the specific skill set that Diggs provided them. I thought that his best attribute for what he gave their offense in 2020 was going to be his ball tracking down the field. Because Josh Allen's accuracy down the field had been so scattershot up to that point. But that's not ultimately the biggest contribution that Diggs made to the offense. Where he ate last year was on a lot of comeback. and hitches and his ability to have that downfield push, that vertical push and kind of get corners going and then work underneath. That was what he gave them last year.

Nobody in the league was better in those sort of scenarios last year than Stefan Diggs. And I think that aspect of Justin Jefferson's game, that vertical push and working underneath, you've seen that more this year than you did last year. So I think if you dropped him onto this year's bills, they could. have a similar type of contribution, but I think last year, that aspect of Jefferson's game wasn't nearly as advanced as it was for Diggs. So that would be my answer. And this year's so different, too.

Emmanuel Sanders is there. I mean, he's a veteran player on Buffalo and Dawson Knox has made a nice step. I just love how, like, that's blossom for Buffalo, right? I mean, Stefan Diggs is still a huge part of what they do. But I felt like if they would have lost him in week 10 last year, they might have been doomed. Don't you agree? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think he was a necessary part of what they did.

So I think that Justin Jefferson has a chance to be like a really good player, like a perennial Pro Bowl type player. But I also think Stefan Diggs is that good. I mean, I was even before last season, I thought he was one of the best receivers in the entire league, and he just needed the right opportunity to kind of show that and the right volume to show that. And that's what's happened. So this is a tough question for me just because I love both guys.

But I do think it's a fascinating question to ask. So I appreciate Ken for shooting it over to us. All right. Let's get to our next one here. Devin Harvey says, it's tough to think through a more disappointing start to the season for the Giants, dropping two winnable games against Washington football team in Atlanta, while Jones looked like he was taking the next step.

Then Jones regressing as the team got crushed by injuries and started getting blown off the field, all while their expensive defense is showing no signs of life. Now at 1 in 5 and eliminating from the playoffs, barring a miraculous turnaround, what do the Giants do next? He asked a couple more things, but just kind of on a broad level here. He said he doesn't see a way. out of the mess that Gettleman and Judge have built, but he's hoping that we have some ideas. We talked about the Giants on the show with Nate last night. I'm curious about your thoughts.

Where you see the Giants, what you think could happen for them in the next year or so, what the next stage of this might look like, because whatever they have right now is currently constructed does not seem to be working out very well. Yeah, I think they're living on the reputation that the Giants established over many years as a top organization. I don't think they have been one for a while. I think the remnants of that kind of went away with, you know, Tom Coughlin for his strengths and weaknesses, you know, sort of could carry that. Eli Manning to whatever degree he could. I feel like they're not strong now. And we're just all waiting for the next general manager, right?

I mean, it's sort of been rumored for a while that Dave got on it. Maybe he was going to be out or he's going to retire or whatever. I feel like they need a reset with new people, new leadership, strong leadership at that level to do it. I haven't felt anything really more than, I haven't felt great about Daniel Jones, you know, the whole time. Like, they should commit to that. And if they just do it right, he's going to be amazing. So I wish I had a great fix for this. But nothing about, like, I haven't felt great about the head coach.

I didn't feel about great about the offensive coordinator, hire or mix or setup. I'm with you. I'm with you, Devin. It was Devin, right? I'm with you, Devin. I'm worried and concerned and think it might need a reset at some point. They're locked into a decent part of this roster, which is what we talked about on yesterday's show, just that they have committed to a lot of these guys. They don't have a ton of financial flexibility.

They could theoretically create a decent amount of cap space. But, I mean, you have guys like Leonard Williams, Kenny Galladay, or Dori, J. Jackson that they've paid a lot for. You know, Logan Ryan, his contract extension. It's going to be hard to move on from him next year. So they're kind of tied to a version of this roster. I think if you're looking for the big splashy move they could make, could you sell one of these quarterbacks on a combination of like Cadarius, Tony,

and Ghaladay and Sequin? Because that to me is the only real answer here. They have two first round picks next year. So, I mean, they do have some flexibility as it relates to draft capital. But I do think along with a reset and kind of a fresh start in the front office and maybe the coaching staff, quarterback might be in there as well. I just don't know what that would look like, who the right guy would be. It's not an easy answer. Like they have painted themselves into a corner here.

So remember, you know, I guess if we go back to last off season with the Russell Wilson drama, wasn't there at one point on the Colin Coward show or something, something about the Giants or Sierra or something weird came out about that that was like obviously to me. seem placed or somewhat. Is that the type of place where Russell Wilson wants to go? The big stage. And you worry about the roster and he's got confidence in himself. You know, you talking about the couple of picks. Maybe Daniel Jones coming back with picks gives you a quarterback, at least something. If you're Seattle, just a thought of dream maybe for Devin.

Well, so you look at it right now. Okay. Russell Wilson's base salary next year is only 19 million. dollars. If the giants just theoretically were to release Sterling Shepard and Kyle Rudolph and make one more move or so, they could have about $18, 19 million in cap space. So you trade your two first round picks next year and Daniel Jones. That would do it right there, yeah, that you'd have enough room for Russell Wilson. What does that look like? And for Seattle, they would have to feel like it decayed enough, you know, that you know what, this is inevitable. This isn't working. He wants

out. We sort of get to that stage. I think Jones is a viable enough quarterback to get back that you have something. For the short term at the very least, right? For the short term at the very leash, and you get the picks, you can decide what you want to do. But you're not just covered bear. You know, he has some talent. He's athletic. Yeah, you could see him probably in the type of offense that they're running there, right? You could see. see him in a Shane Waldron type offense. Yeah, I mean, for the Giants, it just feels like they need to start over in more ways than one.

The irony, the great irony here would be that Dave Gettoman trades down for the first time in his life and the extra first round pick that he ends up getting, he gives to the next general manager to wield to go get a quarterback, which doesn't seem that far fetch. It seems like that actually might happen. But I do feel like that would be the move, is that you kind of sit there and be like, all right, we're tied into this version of the roster to a certain extent. Can we go make a big splash move at quarterback where we get the most out of these expensive veterans we've already paid for and see if we can kind of turn on a dime here?

That would be what I would do. I would look at the draft capital is the most important thing to go get that type of guy because I think that's the most reasonable and high upside pivot that they could make. Yeah. No, I'm with you on that. Wouldn't it be funny, Russell Wilson going from old outdated Pete Carroll to Gettleman? That'd be a nice advancement. I've got to assume that Dave Gettleman is not there anymore.

I also think, I mean, I don't, maybe I'm being harsh. It's only been two years. Can you sell me on the Joe Judge era? Hard to do. Really hard to do. What are the arguments for seeing this through another year? Yeah, they played good defense. last year, sorry. That's just

just saving face if you're John Mara? Yeah, I had a conversation and made it into my column like that. We're talking about the dolphins in the symbol. Like, what's the silver lining? You know, and I'm like, okay, that's a great question for the for the giants. What's the silver lining? What do you hang in your hat on?

There isn't a lot. And you're really hanging your hat on. If we got a great quarterback, we'd be better. Well, guess what? Everybody would be. Connor Gillis asked us. his question, who is in a worse position moving forward? The Giants are the Dolphins. It's a tough question.

Who would you rather be? To me, it's the Dolphins. And it's for this reason. They are not locked into a version of this roster. The Dolphins' failings are that all of the picks that they've made have fallen flat. But they haven't gone into the second stage of poor drafting, which the Giants are in the midst of right now, where your poor drafting leads you to overspend on a bunch of players in free agency.

So I think the dolphins are not as far down the road that you don't want to be down. Yeah, there's more of a period for the Giants. It's a little bit trickier to get out of where you're at. Exactly. But there's going to be some more draft capital, too. You have two first round picks. The dolphins still have one. they have the Niners first round pick.

And shoot, that could be a high one the way things are going. It's not that dire. So they haven't put themselves in that terrible position. And the Dolphins aren't really committed to anybody on that roster. You know, they have, Byron Jones is a decently big deal. But Zavian Howard might not even be on that team by the end of this year. You wrote about that today,

that he's a prime trade candidate based on what's going on there. They can also, they can move on for pretty much every single guy on that roster. which doesn't really bring you anywhere, but at least if you're trying to sell this to a new regime if it comes to that, there's a ton of flexibility. You can remake this team on the fly if you wanted to. That's harder for me with the Giants.

Neither of them is a good situation, but I think that there's just more of a light at the end of the tunnel with the dolphins if you want one. Like this version of the rebuild hasn't worked out, but you could start over if you wanted to if you're Miami. You could. There's other dynamics there too, above that with the owner and you've got to deal with Stephen Ross and this and that versus the Maras and whatever. But it's probably just from looking at it from a football sense. I think you're right in terms of the flexibility. If that's what you want going in, I don't necessarily feel strongly about one quarterback over the other either that they have. I just can't believe we're in this place with Miami. I think maybe overstating it. I'd be surprised if this region. was done after this year when you consider how promising it looked before this, but I don't know.

Yeah, the personnel people, you know, Chris Greer and those guys, a lot of them have just stayed there forever anyway, no matter, even when Mike Cannonbaum came in, they didn't leave. So I'll be very curious to see what happens because they've obviously very much liked Brian Flores last season and have empowered him. And I think he's a key driver of the decisions they're making in personnel too. would you change that out? I mean, how bad would it have to get?

What is the solution that way? I mean, they all, they said when they did this, they were going to be in it for the long term. Remember that? We're going to be in this for the long term. We're going to tear it down. We're going to get the picks. We're going to build it up.

And it's that age-old problem. When you do that, there's no guarantee you're going to pick the right players. They certainly have not to this point. I mean, it is, I cannot believe it's gone this badly, this quickly. I mean, I just never expected them to be a one in five team at six games. Losing to the Jaguars. Yeah. Again, like you said, nothing to hang their hats on.

I mean, their defense has not been very good. I mean, their offense has not been very good, but maybe we could have anticipated that. But at the very least, you would have hoped they could have played some defense. And that hasn't happened either. I mean, they are. They plummeted. And they were winning games on defense and special teams last year. Yes.

You know, what they say about volatility in year-to-year stats, right? I mean, some of those are not there, and it's really killing. They're 29th and combined defense and special teams EPA this year. They were fourth last year. That's the difference between how did this team go 10 and 6, and now they're 1 in 5? All right, let's move on to a rosy subject here. Mike Mead asks, he said, I was born and raised the Detroit Lions fan, but he can't do it anymore. He no longer lives in the state. They bring him nothing but sadness, and they will never get better. I've decided to select a new favorite team. What do you think will be the most of the most exciting team to root for in the next 10 years.

The Cardinals have been my secondary team for about a decade now. So I think I'm leaning toward making them my primary team and the Chargers team. He currently lives in Chicago, but he does not want to be a Bears fan. Well, thanks, Mike. I appreciate you. All right. What do you think here, Sandow?

I love questions like this. I remember Barnwell and I like went through an entire checklist once at Grantland when a European fan asked who we should root for. And digging into that has always been entertaining for me. So where do you think Mike should lean here? First off, Mike, did you think there was a six-game plan that Dan Campbell had? I don't know what your expectations were coming in. I love that this is the final straw for Mike.

I mean, yeah, okay, that's final straw. All righty. What's interesting to me about the teams that he's mentioning is he didn't mention Buffalo or Kansas City. Isn't it interesting? Well, you can't do that, right? Those are off the table. You can't pick a team that's already good. So he has to pick from a team that hasn't really been there to the mountaintop.

Is that what he's saying or hasn't been good? Or how did he limit himself? That's what he's implying. I don't think he's explicitly stating those the limits. But that's what he's implying, which I appreciate it. I respect that. Yeah, I think, well, go with the Chargers, right? I mean, I think Justin Herbert for the next 10 years, I don't have a concern.

I don't really have that many concerns on Kyler Murray. But Justin Herbert's not going to leave and play baseball. he's not going to be probably frequently hurt because he's a smaller guy. He's not really going to be reliant on how much he can run around. And shoot, you can get tickets to the game whenever you want. I would also pick the Chargers. And it would be for this reason. Herbert would be number one.

But also, look at what Staley has done over the last week. Like, it's an easy train to hop on. And it's not, no one can give you shit about it because they have no fans. Like, this is the time. I can't believe no one wants to go see this team that has this young, exciting quarterback, a head coach that I think is definitely on the rise, is going to be doing a lot of good things. I mean, the Chargers are an easy answer for me. No one can accuse you of hopping on a bandwagon that's been successful for years because this team is cursed.

There is no bandwagon. There is no bandwagon that doesn't exist. You can't find the bandwagon. You can't find the Charger bandwagon even now when they're good. How many times in life would you have a chance to justifiably leave your team, which I do think Mike is in a place where he can justifiably walk away from the Lions? I think that the level of incompetence from ownership on down over the last couple deck, I don't know how old Mike is, but I think he is justified in leaving.

I don't think I could ever do it. I don't think I would ever have the stomach. My father would turn over in his grave if I ever left Bears fandom in any way. but I understand where Mike is coming from and I'm not going to judge him here. He's saying terminated with cause. Okay? Yes.

This is different than just leaving. He's not just leaving his spouse without a note, you know, and everyone wanted where he went. He's saying there's cause here. And we're moving on. And I think we're saying the jury here is saying there is cause. This is a rare situation where there's cause,

especially if he's waited out a long time, you know, and been through it. I think you can make a measured decision. I love that you're going to the Chargers, because it's not like some of these other teams that have real established fan bases. It's hard to get into those clubs. And then you're at the sports bar and they ask how you've been a fan. And you say, actually, I was from Detroit and I was a Lions fan for a long time.

Right there, it takes a long time to explain that you changed. Like you're immediately on the defensive. I think you're feeling like you're feeling lesser. They're looking at you weird. Because it's not something you do lightly. And I think no one could understand. Most people from most teams can't understand what Mike's going through. This is a special circumstance for him to leave.

So go somewhere where they don't even going to ask questions. They don't even know Charger fans are wearing Raider uniform. They would be thrilled to have you. The few Chargers fans that exist, they would be thrilled to have you. And I know there are Chargers fans from San Diego. It's a fan base that I, with whom I have commiserated many a time. I have Chargers fan friends. But it is a fit.

No one would judge you. How many times can you justifiably leave your team and then jump on the bandwagon of a team with a likely top five quarterback over the next decade and a head coach that has like a 97% approval rating and have no one judge you for it. This is a rare, rare chance for Mike and I think he absolutely should take it. There should be a process for this, Rob, like the process for changing teams, you know, and it could be, it could be denied or it could be, you could appeal. There should be a process.

I'm fairly certain that Simmons did that at some point. I think that if you like dug back in the archives, I think he had like an actual checklist for how you had to withdraw your fandom from one team and apply it to another team. I think he wrote it when I was like in middle school or something. So it was a long time ago. But I do think that someone has addressed this

in the past. This is definitely like a Bill Simmons special. Yeah. And I think you justified from Detroit. So go for it. All right. Last one here. Gordon Gregory says, I've had the question for a while but wanted to get a better sample size. As a Colts fan who's not a football guru, I've been mostly impressed with Carson once so far

outside of occasionally trying to do too much. Most of the issues with the Colts to my untrained, I have not been related to how he's played. And honestly, he seems to be the only reason we've had a chance in a few games. My question for you and Mike is how you would evaluate Wentz so far. And if you don't agree that he's looked good, how have you come to that conclusion? What metrics are you using?

So here's the crux of the question here, Mike. How do you feel like Carson Wentz has done so far and where do you think that puts the Colts in the decision to go get him and where they sit here over the next year or two? I think he's un-okay and overcame, you know, he's so far overcome a really bad start. I was just really, you know, the immediate injury in camp, then the whole not vaccinated thing, and then gets hurt right away early in the season. I mean, those are not the vaccine thing is not my concern.

It was just a thing he didn't need. You know, he just needed this to be a smooth transition, assimilation coming into a new team after what he'd been through. I felt like these were all sort of bad things that were popping up, especially the injuries. And I think those are still the concerns long term. I mean, it made it through six games. They just played Houston and they beat Houston. So it's trending positively. The concerns I have for him are still the concerns that I would have for him for a long time. And I think if you had excitement for him, the excitement would still be the same excitement. I think there's a chance that long term, they'll come out better than the Rams.

to do with Stafford, I think that's a chance. That's still a chance. I just wasn't willing to bet on that coming into the season because of the injury history, the track record. And so I am tipping my cap. I'm saying, hey, this has gotten better. Good job. But I still have the same concerns about him being on the field

and making the right decisions consistently over a longer period of time than we've seen so far. I think he's played well. I mean, for what you could reasonably have expected from him coming into the year. Over the last couple of weeks, I think his ball placement down the field and outside the numbers has been consistently impressive. And he struggled with accuracy last year. And there's still some of those moments. You know, there are still some of the he'll sail a ball here or there and he's done that over the last couple weeks.

But I feel like he's playing considerably better than he did last year, which is not hard to do. He was arguably the worst quarterback in the league last season. And so you have to be pleased with. the improvements he's made on the 2020 performance, I still just don't know where that brings the Colts. Even if he plays at this level, what does that make you?

And I think part of that question is what is the rest of this roster? Because that's to me the more concerning thing here. Is that this is a defense that has been in the bottom third of the league over the first chunk of the season. Their offensive line has crumbled a little bit. They're not playing

well outside of him. So I just don't know where this version of Carson Wentz fits into the grander scheme and grander plan if you're the Indianapolis Colts. So right now, you have to be pleased with the way he's played, but I just don't know where the state of everything else is right now. Yeah, absolutely. He's not, the quarterback position is not holding them back. It just shows you how hard this is that you, you, we took for granted six months ago that the roster was pretty good. And then could you just get the quarterback? Then you get a quarterback, you're not sure about him, he starts playing better, and then, you know,

they've had injuries and other issues. I still feel like if he is like this, if he's, if you can just count on that, that he's going to be good, I think the rest of it will take care of itself and they'll get the pieces around him and get that right, and some of that's health. And they'll be fine. And I even said, now, that Baltimore loss really, really hurt, really, really hurt. Because before that game, my Sunday column before that game, my Monday column, was like because of their schedule, I felt like they could still, I was not writing them off. One of the things I did was plugged in. There's all the quarterback tiers results into the schedule for the next month or so.

And theirs was great. There's was very favorable. So I felt like if they could have beaten Baltimore, that would have been a huge one. Obviously, that wasn't against an easy quarterback. But they played Houston. They've got some other games. I think they can make up some round here in a division where what can you count on, right? I mean, besides Derek Hendering in this division.

That's why. I mean, there's nobody good. I mean, the division is bad. If the bills beat the Titans tonight, which we all expect, they're one game out. And that's even after losing that Baltimore game. Yeah, so whose problems, if you're Chris Ballard, whose problems in the division would you trade yours for?

Who would you rather be? I don't think anybody. I mean, maybe Jacksonville because they have Trevor Lawrence. That's probably what I would say. Yeah, if you love Trevor Lawrence, and you go in there and there'd be a process of about, But, you know, they just lost 20 games in a row. So, you know, you know what I mean?

I mean, there's a way to go to. I think if you could switch rosters. If I could switch rosters with anybody in the division, it would still probably be Lawrence because I think they have a solution at the most important problem. Yeah. Yep. But to me, the bigger question with this team isn't Carson West, that they're dead last in pressure rate after drafting a defensive end in the first round and trading for DeForest. I mean, that's the issue with this team.

It's everything else that's going on around the roster. But to talk about flexibility. they still have some. You know, they have to give away their first round pick next year, but this is always a team that's going to have money to spend. They still do, even with the contract extensions, they're going to have to hand out. So I think that they're in somewhat of a tough spot,

but I also think that they're going to have avenues to improve this team next off season. The hard part, the risk for me is that there's still a lot of season to go. Is Carson Wentz going to miss eight games? You know what I mean? I just, I feel like the injury risk is real. and that's been the most consistent thing about him going back a ways. And I don't think that that suddenly ends as you get older.

Maybe it stabilizes for a while. Maybe he does make it through it. But I still think that's a concern for them on top of everything else. I agree. But if he continues to play like this, I have to think they should be pleased with the way that he's played, especially over the last couple weeks. But I still don't know where that ultimately brings them. And I think that's the bigger question that you have to ask.

All right, guys, that's all we got for today. sincerely appreciate the time, Mike. Always like doing this with you. Thank you to everyone who sent in questions. It really means a lot that you guys take the time to do this. Sincerely, it's the reason that we do it. So thank you very much for doing that. Please go check out the football GM with Sandow and Randy Mueller on Saturdays.

If you're not listening to that, you're absolutely missing out. We'll be back tomorrow with a very exciting episode. Doug Peterson is going to come on. Former Eagles coach Doug Peterson is going to come out. We're going to have a chat about how coaches kind of find their team. over the course of the season, how you settle into the team that you want to be down the stretch as we get toward the halfway mark of the year. Mitchell Schwartz is also going to be back.

So please come back and check out both of those guys. Until then, appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was The Athletic Football Show.