The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Mailbag: Andrew Luck in today's NFL, Philip Rivers' HOF case, first football memories, value of QB, food talk & more

Episode Date: July 19, 2022

Robert Mays and Nate Tice return to the airwaves following the week of Luck by answering your Mailbag questions about how Luck would rank in today's NFL, whether Philip Rivers has a real HOF case, the football memories that sparked the love of the game, the NFL valuing the QB position, Chicago food recommendations and much more. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. The athletic football show. Today's Tuesday, July 19th. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today. It's my good friend Nate Tyson. How you doing, buddy? Very good.

Booking training camp travel today. So that was very a real moment that we are there. We are there. We are there. So close. So we obviously were off last week. Thank you so, so much to Zach Kiefer for holding down the feed with luck. If you have not listened.

to look. I highly encourage you guys to go check it out. It was so well done. I've listened to it a couple times now. And we're listening to episode five, kind of the crescendo of when he decides to retire. It's genuinely moving. It's affecting when you go back and listen to it. And just the rhythms of how Zach told the story, he was the right person to tell it. I highly, highly, highly encourage you guys to go listen to it. You can finish it in a day easily if you want to. It's fantastic. But we are back. I'm excited to be back. We're at that point in the calendar. So today I had my document, my Google sheet of all of our shows over the next like month and my training camp travel and trying to incorporate both of those and figure out the scheduling. It's a nightmare, but it's awesome.

It's such a good feeling to be back in that place, getting ready to head back on the road and talk to some people about football. It's a very, very, very fun time in the NFL calendar. It really is, especially looking at the schedules for everybody. It kind of got me juiced up again, kind of looking at. I was like, okay, padded practice, here we go. I had to make sure I got to each of the padded practices. I'm not, hopefully there's no cancellations or none of that where the coach is like, oh, you know, you guys, but we're early in the training camp too, like where it's week

one, week two. So it's before they start canceling and going half days and all that. So I think I'm getting right in that sweet spot where the coaches still want to work them a little bit. I can't worry about that because I just have to worry about if people are on or not because I'm trying to hit so many. So it's all about who has an off day and who doesn't. And it all came together in this beautiful way where the Ravens,

are on on a Saturday in August when no one else is. So if you can just hit those teams and there's no off days, I go from August 8th through August 19th with no off days. Nice. Which is great. I mean, it's good. It's good. By the time, I'm like making the five-hour drive from Ashburn to La Trobe, I'm going to be

like, oh, man, I should have taken a day here somewhere. But I want to hit as many as I can. It's the worst when you're in the middle of that trip. And a whole weekend is just gone because they're preseason games and nobody's practicing. So the way that it fell was awesome. I'm very, very excited about it. Just a quick note on the training camp stuff. I'm going to be at, I think, 18 different teams over the course of a month.

I want to hear from you guys about what you want to see, what you want to hear about. I sometimes get a little too close to it when you've done this every single year for a while. I would love to be able to provide some behind the scene stuff or some on the road stuff. And we're really going to make a more conscious effort, I think, this year, to be more active on social media and do a little bit more of that kind of stuff. So please let us know. What do you want to see over the course of that couple weekspan? And we will try to bring it to you.

I would love any notes, any suggestions you guys might have. All right, let's get to it. Kent, why don't you give us our first voicemail, which kind of ties in the Luck podcast from last week. Hey, guys. My name is Daniel Frazier, and I've really been enjoying your pod for a long time. Thanks for the great work.

And this week, I've been especially enjoying the podcast series about Andrew Luck. his prospects and the what-ifs in his career. I was wondering, as a Titans fan, I really despised luck while he was playing and the fact that we were never able to beat him even once in his career. But I have grown to appreciate him more since his retirement, which is usually the way it goes with players on opposing teams. I was wondering, if you guys did a QB ranking with Luck still playing, where do you think he would rank right now, assuming he was healthy?

also how do you see the last three years of the cults going do they win a Super Bowl is it just in the playoffs are are they still struggling where do you see those things being different and what are their prospects for this season I'm assuming it would be a lot better off but I'd be curious to see what you guys think about where he would rank in the league and how different things would be for the cults thanks and have a great day love this question I let's start with the quarterback ranking obviously we did our quarterback draft earlier this year which takes contracts into a count, but you have a pretty good understanding what the tiering is when you go through that exercise. So when I was looking at the list, Mahomes, Rogers Brady still to me top tier. Like that would be the grouping, I would say, it's just ahead of everybody else. After that, I mean, he's probably right in that Josh Allen, Justin Herbert, stretch of things. Because when we got to like 7, 8, 9 in the quarterback draft, that was where we were talking about

Stafford and Lamar and Russell. Wilson. I think he would be above that tier below the really, really good tier. So maybe right there in that mix with Herbert and Burrow, maybe even a step ahead of those guys. It's really important to remember when Andrew Luck last played football in 2018, he was really fucking good. Yeah. He was really good. Really good. And he would only be, what, 34 years old now? So this is this season. So like still. And the multiverse were playing with your injuries are so hard to understand and if he was playing, what capacity would be he'd be playing at. If we turned injuries off, if that was kind of the conceit of this, I think he would be

on the verge of the top tier at the top of the second tier. That's where I put him. That's exactly where I had it. I said, I could argue, I put it as elite tier, you know, top four-ish, top-five-ish, but I say no matter how you shake it, it's top six, I think that's no matter which kind of season, you're going to put him in that kind of like very good to excellent category, which is that top, top tier is excellent to me. That last year, I'm glad he brought it up.

2018, his QBR was 69 and changed. It was almost 70. 70 is ridiculous. He was up there. He went the league in sack percentage, 2.7%. I didn't even realize that his last season. And he averaged seven points because they finally on pro football references is right when they started doing the advanced stats. So it was perfect.

He averaged 7.6 yards per scramble in 2018, which was the same as Kyler last year. It's like he was on a, that's a different level of quarterback that he's doing that kind of stuff as a thrower. especially, I mean, that podcast series, you can talk about how intelligent he is, what a hard worker he is. I mean, he's really looking back at it. And Andrew, Andrew and I were more or less the same age. I went to a Nike camp, I think, with him back when we were in high school. But to me, he's like, he's like our football is Bill Walton. Like, it's like, it's what could have been.

Yeah. It's like, oh, my God, that peak. He was just, he, Bill Walton had the MVP year, but it's like, man, we're just seeing him climb when he's starting. Everything seems to be sorting out. And it just ended before it could really like finish out. But man, I just see him as that excellent to very good tier, no matter how you shake it. He was an excellent player. And I think he was that new age quarterback that we've talked about, go get a bucket, all

that. He is that. Him and Herbert are kind of like cut from the same cloth as far as being an athlete, but being so intelligent, a robot is big and strong. So he was that new wave of quarterback. Andrew Luck was that new prototype. I talked about it on Zach's show. I talked way more on that podcast than I expected to based on how many other incredible

voices he had. But one of the things that they used was I was talking about just that feeling when he would climb the pocket. And his throwing motion had this built-in excitement to it where you could feel it lifting off when he would push the ball down the field. I loved that. There was just something about that in the way he threw a football where it was technically perfect, right?

But it wasn't robotic. It just there was this element to it where it was refined, but there was still an artistry to it. I don't know how to perfectly describe it, but watching him play, there was just something to that. It was sound, but not mechanical. Yes. I think that's right. I think that's right.

Because his pocket mobility and movement when he would step up in the pocket, it was smooth, but it was, he was, he was more explosive than some of the other more refined quarterbacks that we've seen. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. Yeah, he's like in between. Yeah, that's a good way. That's a good way to talk about. Yeah. Because he, there's zero fat with his movement, but then he also ran a, what, four, six, eight, 40. When you climb the pocket

and look to push the ball down the field, there was just an explosive element to it that most guys didn't have. Rogers has that. But not a lot of the other guys we talk about that are technically sound refined quarterback prospects. So on the Colts side of this, it's a really good question.

So that 2020 Colts team with Rivers, that team was really good. That team went into Buffalo and gave that team all they could stand. And they were, obviously would have been better with prime Andrew luck. For as much as I love Philip Rivers, end of career Philip Rivers was a

borderline top 10 quarterback, not a you have one of the seats at the table elite quarterbacks. So I think that team could have done some real damage. The only question I would have about them is their past catching options, even if we're worried about the ones they have now, it's the same guys, but two years younger. Like Pittman was coming on at the end of that seat.

But they didn't have the past catching weapons, I think maybe to be truly dangerous against that version of the Chiefs team that went to the Super Bowl and the Bucks team that ended up winning the Super Bowl. But the offensive line was really good again. So I think that's another really important thing to take into account that Colts defense was really solid those years. They'd be in the mix, right? I think they would be right there with all the other teams we're talking about in the AFC right now if Andrew Luck was the quarterback of this team. We'd be talking about them with the bills, the chargers. And I think we would have been over the last two seasons probably. Yep, yep.

They'd be right in that, like when we go into the season, we say, who are the legit final four teams? Like they would, that 2020, especially. That was like, that was a early podcast favorite team. That was our, well, that was a with fun, man. They were really fun. What a weird team. But when I really, really liked all the tight ends, all the, all the goofy stuff they were doing. All tight ends and Heinz.

And again, Pittman came along later in that season. And that was a top 10 defense. They were top 10 against the run and the past. There's very, very solid in the way. defenses with Iber flus have been. So I think they would have been then. They would be right in the mix. I think they would have been then. They would be now. And that's the sad part of all this. Right. And it was just being more, I think what Andrew brings, and this was because he is so smart, is that he was always going for the explosive play. And that's why he had so many turnovers,

yada, yada, yada, yada. And why got the shit kicked out from him. And why got the shit kicked out of them. Yeah. And that's, I always say you want to be dumb. You got to be tough. But it's like, he was like so smart that's kind of that doesn't apply there. But it's, I mean, I think Phil Rivers that year, because I remember I did a. joke on it on Twitter to you that Rivers only scrambled once in all of 2020. And it was like the first game and he like fell forward for a yard. So there's a little difference right there that Andrew would give you a little more room for error on that offense, which I think adds to a winner too, even if they, you know, mentally Philip Rivers is a genius as well. I think by the end of that season,

way to DVOA, by the end of the year, they were at top 10 offense. They really figured it out. I think they're clearly a top 10 offense in the beginning. That was the other part of this is they had to reset. They've had to reset every year. Every single. year. I mean, it's, it's remarkable everything about what they've gone through over the last few years. And that's what, they were exactly 10th and way to debut at the end of the year. It's a good pull by me.

That's been why it's been so crazy. I mean, I talked with Frank Reich last year about incorporating Carson Wentz into their offense. I'm going to have the same conversation with him again in like two weeks. It's just crazy. It's a yearly thing for them now. Some of that's their own doing, but we don't

have to go any further down that road. One more luck question here. Alex Bartnick says, says, listen to Luck, loved every second ever. The Chiefs rebamp of their own line as often contextualized as it was in the series, I think by me, with they didn't want Mahomes to be the next luck or something to that effect. My question is, do you think the Chiefs would have been as aggressive in their actions without that crystallized example of what happens when you don't protect a quarterback?

In broader terms, was Luck's misfortune, an isolated incident. It was the wake-up call, the league needed about the value of protecting your most valuable asset. In the Chief's case, I think it was watching the quarterback run for his life in the Super Bowl against the bucks. Yeah, especially when you give those quarterbacks a lot of money. And then you're like, we got to protect $200 million there. I think that that's where you get to that. When I first got to Atlanta, that was priority number one.

That's why Jake Matthews got selected in 2014 was do we, our defense is porous. We have no pass rush. But do we get a pass rush or do we protect our $100 million quarterback and Matt Ryan? They voted to protect the $100 million quarterback. You protect the franchise. guys. That is the philosophy of it. I don't think it's anything new. I think that's always been, I mean, remember David Carr getting sacked 70-something times as a rookie, and then that became a whole discussion. And then Archie Manning back in the day running it for his life with the Saints.

And that became a whole discussion back in the 80s. I was before I was bored. But here say, but I think that's what it always is. Once you start paying these guys and I mean, I think my home's with that deal, what he was about to get. Okay, let's protect that. So because if that guy goes down, we don't want to practice effed, you know, as the old saying is. So I think that's where it's always been around, but now, but people have a true example going, we don't want it to have to Andrew Luck, as opposed to theory. I also think that depends on your quarterback to a certain extent, right? I mean, if you have a quarterback that's really good at protecting himself, is do you have to invest as much in the offensive line because that guy's going to make the line

better just by virtue of him being there? Mahomes isn't that guy, you know, the way that he's played and how he's a playmaking quarterback. He hangs on. He doesn't get sacked very much at all. But the ways that he's trying to make big plays all the time. He creates some of his own pressure sometimes. Yes. But I think when you take that into account, if you're looking at Patrick Mahomes, you think all we need to do is make sure that he's protected, he can make the receivers better. And I think that's what they're betting on this year. So I think with certain types of quarterbacks, and I think luck was one of these guys, protecting him should have been, I think, I can't remember who said this on the show. I think might have been brought in, Brian

Schottenheimer or somebody said he'll make the receivers better. There are some quarterbacks that are going to make the receivers better. Your priority should be making sure that guy doesn't get destroyed on a consistent basis. I think he was one of those guys. I think Mahomes is one of those guys as well, but it depends on your quarterback. So I think in the Chief's case, it was definitely watching him run for his life against the Bucks. But on a broader level, I think that the lessons to be learned from Andrew Luck's career are real. And I think people probably have them in the back of their minds. But there are more urgent examples for some of these teams. Yeah, don't

draft a Philip Dorset, a 5-8 receiver in the first round. That would be one good example. I said this to Zach when we were doing the show. In 2012, 2013, 2014, 2012, they were so young. I mean, they had so many players that they needed to draft and just throw

out there. They had drafted Anthony Costanzo in the first round the year before. In 2013, I think it was 2013, they'd signed Gasser Shere-a-List to that big deal. He had the biggest right-tackle contract in the league when they signed him in a free agency. Over the next couple years, they drafted Hugh Thornton, they drafted Collette Holmes, they signed Donald Thomas to a pretty big free agent deal.

In 2012, 2013, and 2014, I think Muhoort was also involved somewhere along there. They made investments. Those and a lot of them didn't work out, but they made investments. Then, when you start trading away first round picks for Trent Richardson, you start taking Philip Dorset in the first round, that's when the malpractice starts. the set in. The Richardson thing, you can rationalize it. You can say, well, we needed a better running game

in order to protect our quarterback. This is the wrong way to handle it, to be clear, the same way the Steelers did last year. Like, oh, we need a better running game with Straff Naji Harris in the first round and have him run for 3.7 yards of carrier. It get whacked every time of the backfield. It's not the right way you should do it, but I understand the thought process.

Drafting Philip Dorset and saying, this is what we need for our offense. It's a 5-8 speed receiver or whatever he is. No. No. Well, you already have T.Y. Hilton. No. That's a bad one. That's a bad one.

That's a bad one. It's part of what's made this so tragic is that that year in 2018, they had Braden Smith, and they had Ryan Kelly, and they had Quentin Nelson, and they still had Anthony Costanzo. You had this offensive line that's, like you said, he had the lowest sec rate in the league. So now finally, you have these bricks of granite in front of him, and he plays one year. And that was it. Yeah, one year to watch him behind that group. That was so good. Once.

Just come on. All right. I'm just going to get sad. Let's move on. I know. Can we get our next voice, Mel? Hey, guys, big fan. I was listening to the Hall of Very Good podcast a few weeks ago where you talked about Mike Evans.

He said he was a great player. And he both agreed that he didn't get it. Shouldn't get in because while the counting stats are going to be great, the inflation and counting stats at receivers. And he never had quite the accolades. And he was never like a top three, top five receiver in the league. The reason I bring this up, I actually 100% agree with you, is I know Robert, you very passionately think that Philip Rivers should be in the Hall of Fame. And I kind of feel like you're talking about both sides of your mouth a little bit. Rivers was very, very good.

He was maybe as one year as a top three quarterback in the NFL, but unfortunately he was in the era of obviously Brady and Manning and Rogers and Prey. So I just want to hear if you can nuance that or if it is just one of those human beings. things where I think Rivers is great and I'm passionate about it because I definitely understand that, but I wanted to see if it's just deeper than that. Thanks. Bye. A couple things here. I want you to talk about Mike Evans because he's been on your mind as it relates to a couple of conversations we've had recently and some stats that PFF has put out in the last couple weeks. I think it's been really interesting as they relate to Mike Evans. So I'm going to get to that in a second. I can nuance the shit out of this Philip Rivers conversation. Oh yeah. I don't think Philip Rivers is a

hall of favor because of counting stats. When I look at career passing yards and Philip Rivers is sixth, that's like seventh or eighth in my arguments for why Philip Rivers should be in the Hall of Fame. I think Philip Rivers should be in the Hall of Fame because of efficiency stats. That's why he to me is right there right after those other guys. If you look at Ben Baldwin's stats in like the EPA over the last 20 years and you do quarterbacks with 2,500 snaps or passing attempts, whatever the Sorter is, from 2006 with Philip Rivers' first year as a starter to 2020. The only quarterbacks who are more efficient over that stretch are Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Aaron Rogers, and Drew Brees.

Philip Rivers is fifth. He's ahead of Russell Wilson. He's ahead of Tony Romo, who is incredibly efficient whenever he was on the field. He is right there behind those guys. If you look at Matthew Stafford, Matthew Stafford's like 17th over that stretch. Matthew Stafford has a lot of counting stats. Philip Rivers, to me, is about how freaking good he was a quarterback. That stretch from 2008, 2009, 2010, Philip Rivers was the most efficient quarterback in the league when Tom Brady and Peyton Manning and True Breeze were at the peak of their powers. Even though you have these Hall of Fame guys at the height of what they were, Philip Rivers was as good as those guys for huge chunks of his career.

So it's not about the counting stats from me. I don't care that he has the six most passing yards of all time and he has all these numbers that he racked up over 15 years as a starter. To me, it's what he was at his best. It's the efficiency stuff, and it's the rate stuff, and just how good of a quarterback he was. So that's to me why it's different than somebody like Mike Evans. You look at Mike Evans' career, and we can get into some of the nuances of this.

Mike Evans has one second team all pro. So it's different. I know I understand Philip Rivers, I don't think he has a single second team all pro, but those quarterbacks are playing at the same time. Maybe you can make an argument about Evans that the receivers are so good. right now. That's why he's bumped down. But I just think that the argument against Rivers for never being a top three player or so at his position during his career is easily explained away by saying we had three of the best quarterbacks of all time at the same time that he was playing. Yeah. That's my argument.

No, I think Rivers is a hall of fame, though. Like I just for everything he laid out. And just because there's something about being iconic. There's something to that. Like everyone's going to remember how Phillip Rivers throws. And everyone's going to remember those Chargers teams because they're so much fun. You're going to remember the LTE years, I guess, and him throwing with Antonio Gates and stuff. But I think with the Mike Evans, Mike Evans is such a fun litmus test, I guess. And as far as Hall of Fame, at first I would say no, because I'm like, okay, there's some of those empty calorie stats and all that.

But then you start kind of parsing through. And yards and receptions might get juiced up a little bit in this era. but I don't think touchdowns get used up. And this is my argument. This is the counting stat for Mike Evans because efficiency stuff is not going to really have so much as weight with receivers. Mike Evans, if he scores 10 touchdowns this year, he's averaged nine and a half a year in his career, where do you think he'd be all time in receiving TDs? Top 15?

He'd be 16th, tied for 16th. If he's 29 this year, if he averages 80 year for the next three years, so it's 29, 30, and 31-year-old season. So after 31 is when receivers gets a little dicey, that's 100 touchdowns. He's top 10. And everybody re-looked at as 100 touchdowns. It's like, man, these are all-time guys. And yes, those are counting stats. And yes, it's more about being consistent year after year.

But that discussion we had with Stephen Ruiz about the receiver market. This is where I wanted to take you next. Yeah. Everybody go listen to that because it was such a fun discussion with Stephen. We were talking about the, you asked Stephen. It was like, what were the scheme-proof guys? And we were starting kind of listening it off. And I kind of like, that's been.

stuck in my mind for the last couple weeks. And I was like, Mike Evans. Mike Evans is a scheme-proof receiver. He has no reception scheme for him. None. All they do is put him on the outside and just make him beat people up. And he does. And there's something about that. So even in this era where passing the ball is easier, I think the only thing that really cranks up Mike Evans's numbers is volume compared to other eras. There aren't a lot of easy buttons being spammed for him in the same way there some of these other guys. Like all of this, I think Cooper Cup is a very,

very good player, but we mentioned this. Mike Evans isn't working against linebackers. No. Mike Evans is going against. The number one corner every single week, outside the numbers,

mono, mono, let's do this. And I think there's something to be said about that. And some of you saying what you said about that and then some of the other stats that have been coming out, like the pure route running efficiency that he has. And I think that's a really good way to think about it because it's all pure

route running. There's nothing created for him. He's a true X. And that is old school. And Stephen brought that up. He said the type of player, it's more about the routes you can run and all that is changing at the receiver position. But just because Evans is an old school X type receiver that overpowers guys with vertical routes, we shouldn't dog them for it. It's actually more a feather in his cap. It's actually really impressive. Yeah. There's only a few of those guys left. It's Mike Evans, Mike Williams with the chargers. Hopkins. Hopkins and T. Higgins. Those are the true. in my right when I'm thinking about it, the true X's in the world right now.

But I was after you kind of sent me this question, I was like, I want to look up the slot stats. He's actually in there a lot more than you think he is. Yes. I think it was a third of his snaps last year. With third of, yep, it was 32.6 percent. 32.6 percent. Third of his snaps.

Very good, Robert. And he, but also he was fourth in EPA per slot target in 2021. He's 10th since 2020. Like, he's good. And I think it's A dot from the slots like 14. yards. So we know what we know what type of routes he's running from the slot. Seems corners post. Like, you know, digs. That's what he's running. But he, yeah. So it's like he's just a true awesome receiver. And it's kind of it's he's such a fun guy to talk about. Because it's yeah, it's like

he might not have those juiced up numbers where we're like, man, that guy, he might get offensive player of the year this year. But there's nothing wrong with a guy. It's like freaking Aga Martinez in baseball. Nothing wrong with hitting 30 home runs and 25 doubles every single year. You know, like that's, that's still a contributor. He might not hit 50 home runs, but still a very good player. I mean, this guy cut 12 touchdowns as a rookie with Josh McCown and Mike Lennon as his quarterback. What are you trying to say about those guys?

Oh, no, no, you're okay. Both future bears. But then, oh, you're fucking telling me. Pass bears, I should say at that time. But then, yeah, I mean, his offensive play callers, he's at Dirk Cutter, Todd Munkin, now Leftwich. He's kind of just always produced. Yeah.

So I, I don't know. I've become a Mike Evans kind of like pound on the table a little bit more for him as a how we think and rank these guys. I have definitely checked myself as it relates to him a lot recently. And I think that this is going to be an ongoing exercise. I think this year will be a really another good test for him. If he just kind of keeps doing this as the other receivers that we talk about as top four, five, six guys keep vacillating back and forth when he just steadily is there all the time. I think that he could definitely rise in my estimation if this continues because I do think I underrate just how purely dominant he can be in areas of the game where he's not getting any help.

And this is the type of guy I usually love. I know. It makes sense that it's a blind spot for me, but not for you. I know. It's like I'm like I'm more mad at myself for now. And then yeah, but that discussion with what Stephen was like, man, Mike Evans though, You can pop up with anybody and he's going to produce. That's a top tier receiver.

That's the guys that deserve to get paid. But yeah, listen to that podcast too after you listen to this one twice. Next one here from Felix Hindle in Germany. So the Jaguars are being laughed at for the Christian Kirk signing. I think the Jaguars, small market and unsuccessful, have to pay a bunch when signing somebody. I'm more concerned that they now have multiple wide receivers in tight ends, Kirk Agnew, Chanel, Ingram, best suited to play in the slot. So my stupid football one-on-one question, why can you?

can't you play with two slot receivers? Does that make the field too compressed? phrase differently, what's the best way for the Jags to use their receivers? I was going to give you this one. First of all, I want to say very quickly, when we did that receiver podcast and I was making fun of the, I was not even making fun in the Christian Kirk contract. I just said it's insane. When you look at the rest of the league, it is insane that he's getting paid that much. I'm not shitting on the Jaguars for doing it. I understand they have to pay more for players. And it's almost, they're not paying anybody else. It's a bad contract when you think about it in a vacuum. For the Jags, it's kind of like, ah, that's not great, but it's kind of whatever.

That, in that way, I don't really care about it. But when you think about it compared to everything else, just in terms of pure value, that's not great. But the Jags shouldn't be in a place where they're trying to squeeze every dollar of pure value out of things. They don't have the luxury of being there. So I just wanted to be clear about that before we moved on. That last sentence is nailing it. They don't have the luxury of doing it. And that's what, yeah, that's where it's kind of, it's not everyone's operating from the same place. No. It's okay to acknowledge that. Not everyone's the ramps.

Not everyone's the Rams and go, hey, O'Dell, come on. Like, you know, like, hey, come on the cheap. Like, that's, that's nice. That's really nice when you can do that as a team. But Felix got nailed on the head. And this is why I know Jaguarts fans got pretty defensive during the free agency period because it felt like everyone was just knocking them on it. And this is where my frustrations were, Christian Kirk is a fine player.

He is a solid, good, goodish receiver. But he's a slot-only guy. And this is proven now. College and now pros. And he was the second best in EPA per target. from the slot since 2020 with 50 plus slot targets only behind Cooper Cup. The thing is they they have Chanel. Chanel is like a number three, number four role,

super role player type. They've started to use them as a blocker and doing some cool stuff with him like that, which I, or they that's a new staff, but the guys last year did, which I think is a path for him because he is kind of a unique player. He's almost like an undersized tight end at this point in time. The thing is the Zay Jones.

You mean like Evan Ingram? Like Evan Ingram. That is the Evan Ingram. thing is that's he's an F only tight end. What I mean by that is receiving only tight end. You are not asking Evan Ingram to block ever. He's not good at it. He's never been good at it.

He has to be off ball off the line scrimmage, all that. That is where the saminess of all this is, uh, it's a little dicey. Because when you get into base personnel, if we want to get into two tight ends or a fullback in a tight end, you can't have Ingram as your Y tight end. So he's already limited there as your main blocking tight end. And if you have two receivers on the field, Zay Jones, fine. He's a fine Z receiver, whatever. Kirk's not that great from the outside.

The Cardinals' offense struggled last year when Kirk has to operate as the outside receiver. Cardinals have their own limitations or whatever the hell they do. But still, it's been proven so far in his NFL track record. Okay. So if we're going to get to 11 personnel with three receivers. All right. If we have Ingramman as our only tight end, they're going to pass it. So we already have a little tendency right there.

Okay. So this is again where this is like, okay, okay. So how do we do this best? All right. to me, it's a one by three formation where Ingram would be the lone receiver, one being the tight end and be trips on the other side. The two slot guys would be Kirk, Chanel, and Zay Jones. Kirk and Chanel be in the inside.

And if you want anybody else in their Agnew, if you want, I guess, in there as well. But to me, that's getting those guys in the best spots. But the fact that you have to get, that's what the chiefs like to run. That's what the Eagles would like to run last year. But if you only can be good out of one formation and a formation that doesn't really get everything out of it, you only can get to certain run plays out of that formation. You just have such heavy tendencies. And I think that's where I have issues with how the Jaguar has constructed the receiver room in tight end room, is that they're going to have such heavy tendencies as

the season plays out, unless Dan Arnold can really be a three-down guy. We'll see. So that's where another guy whose best trade is catching passes at tight end. Yes. All receiving tight end. So if you got, what's his name, Chris Mayhew, I believe it is, uh, uh, Mannerts. I'm sorry, Chris Mayhue. Jesus, Chris Mayhew, oh my God. That was like a 1999 Vikings practice squad guy. So Chris DeMaherts, he's a solid blocking tight end. He's a why, but he's not in there to catch passes. So it's just that's where those tendencies stuff, the NFL teams will get NFL defense will get a key on this.

So I think the best way to do is they go that one by three formation. The Falcons were a good example. They would have Cordero Patterson be like a glorified tight end on passing downs where you chip and then release into the flat. You do that with Shinald, you have Ingram being quote-unquote Kyle Pitts. That's a lone receiver, Christian Kirk operating from the slot. I think that's the best way they have to go about it if you want a path for this offense. All right. Let's get to our next voice, Mel here.

Hey, guys. This is Kenny from Atlanta. And I'm a big Ravens fan. And I was going the NFL just posted a highlight of Lamar Tony McNean MVP season. And kind of got me thinking, what is you all's earliest football memory that really got you into the sport? And the reason I said that was watching the video and seeing all those just amazing plays, you could see how somebody watching football for the first time can really get captivated by that.

Me personally, it was Ladanyan Thomason versus the Bengals in November 2006 when he rushed for four touchdowns. was one of the best games 12-year-old me had ever seen. So I love to hear what you do all have. Thank you. Let it rip, man. Let it rip. Well, first off, Kenny from Atlanta saying you all, how, how you, it might be from Maryland because he's not saying y'all.

That's like, that really threw me off. I got two. So my first real memory is when my dad came back from retirement to play as a tight end in 1995. this is like my first memory of football. I was a candlestick park week. And I looked it up. It was week 16 Monday night football against the 49ers at San Fran.

I got to go to the game. So I'm like six years old then. And I remember sitting in the end zone. I think they lost. And there's my dad, you know, the wide tight end blocking his butt off. With a little beer belly because he had been sitting out for a year. But my, what got me into football, I mean, this is probably what you expect. Randy Moss, 1998, week one, bucks.

I'm a water boy. nine years old and Brad Johnson who could throw about 45 yards throws it 45 as far as he could. But he could throw into a basketball hoop from 45 yards away. Oh, my guy. Isn't amazing his videos. I love him. But there's Randy Moss just he caught two touchdowns. And the one out I'll vividly remember is when he pucks it over the two dbs and it catches it to himself.

He flips it to himself. And right then and there, I was like, football is the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life. And the noises from the Metrodome. And that was my first time really going to games. And because I was like, oh, my dad, we haven't moved. It's been three years. Okay, I guess I'm a Vikings fan. So, but that, that's my memories.

Week 1, Tampa Bay Box at the Metro Dome, Moss catching two touchdowns. I could vividly remember that. I didn't really think about this when I picked this question that yours would just destroy mine because your childhood football memories are very different than mine. I have a few different ways to attack this. I had Cowboys bed sheets when I was like six. Like I was a huge football fan. The Bears are my team. I love the bag.

I love the Bears. I remember you talked about you like the bucks a little bit in the 90s. I had little stretches where I would just like fall in love with certain teams. And I love the early 90s Cowboys. They were very good. I was like five years old. They were winning games. Kids are the biggest bandwagon hoppers in the world.

Yeah, I was five. So I had the Cowboys bedsheets. I remember that. And I so I really like those early Cowboys teams, but I don't remember specifically watching any of those games. The first football game I can remember sitting and watching on TV. And I'm sure there are plenty of Bears games I watched before this that I probably snippets up, but there weren't many great

Bears moments in the early 90s, so I don't have a ton to choose from. I vividly, vividly remember watching the Niners, Chargers, Super Bowl when I was seven years old, vividly. I remember watching in my house growing up, Buffalo Grove, Illinois, and Arden. And so that

was the first, like, big football game I can remember watching. And then the next year, Super Bowl was Cowboy Steelers. Vivily remember that. I went to my first Bears game, think in 1995 season when I was seven. So it would have been a months after that Super Bowl between the Cargers and the Niners. And then the team I really, really were, I understood why I liked them was the two Super Bowl Broncos teams.

Weirdly enough, that aesthetic of football, I still like it. Sticks with you. It's, I still love, I mean, watching that offense and just the, the synchronicity of what the running game looked like and just everything off the play action. and what it looked like. I remember watching that in the 97, 98. It was like, this is awesome. Yeah. It's how beautiful the run game was.

People have to remember how different it looked. Yes. It looked so different than anything that. Like, people ran zone, but not to like that. It was so different. It was the first time where you really saw that. And then that was obviously the best version of it when they ended up winning those Super Bowls. And then even later on, you know, it kind of went away for a little while.

And when I say it went away, I mean, it didn't take over the league. And the teams that used it outside of those Shanahan teams were those Falcons teams. And they had VIX so it looked different. Like the purity of the zone running game kind of went away for a little while. And even when you think about the staff, his offensive coordinator, Shanahan's, from 95 to 2005 was the same guy. It's not like the league was trying to steal this version of offense. But then Gary Kubiak goes to Houston. and I loved those mid to late 2000 Houston teams.

I loved them. And so that style of football has always been something I really appreciated. One of my favorite things when I talk to football coaches is asking them why and when they developed their value system schematically. Why do you do the thing that you do? Why is your play your play? Yeah. And some of the answers are bad. When you, when it's a guy who's like, well, I've just coached in this system forever and that's just what I do.

That's when you're like, uh-oh, right? And there are certain coaches, I won't point out specifics, but one of them coached in Chicago for a few years. He didn't say this to me. But when you come from one place and that's just where you come from and you don't have an articulate, you can't articulate the reason. Like, I adopted this type of football because I think it has this and this and this advantages. It's concerning to me. When you lose the why, when you lose the why, it gets scary. And so when I talked to Kevin Stefanski a few years,

ago, I was talking to him. It was the year he took over as the play caller full time. And we were talking, I asked him, was like, why do you want to run this type of offense? Because they were running the Kubiak offense before Gary got there. But they were adopting it kind of full on. And he told me a story about in 2009, he was watching. He was a QC in Minnesota. You do this every off season. You study teams that are very good at specific things. Try to figure out what can I steal. And I don't wonder why it's a copycat league. It's because everyone watches each other. It's the whole point. That's what you spend the spring doing. So he told me a story about watching all of the keepers and boots that the Texans ran. I think it was that 09 season where Mathschaw threw for 4,500 yards and they were a top 7ish offense. And he's like, this is amazing. If I ever get my chance, this is what I want to do. And that's how I felt about that offense.

I just loved it in Denver. I loved it every other time it was run. So that's why this is so cool to me for it now to be the offense dejure. were in the NFL because I've loved the way it looks and what the bones of it are for 25 years since I was like a small child. It's speaking to those those boot legs though. So, so this must be in 2010 or 11, 2011. I was, my dad was with the Bears. I was at Wisconsin. I, we had two weeks off before summer training. So I'm in Libertyville or Lake Forest and I got to hang out of the Bears facility. I'm watching NFL film. You know, poker, I go to Coach Chris. He's

offense, Paul Chris, he was offensive coordinator at the time. I goes, anything you want me to kind of like steal? Like, you know, like anything you want me to look for? And he goes, watch Washington. And because, yeah, because Shanahan got there and what you have. Yep. Watch Washington. Drop every boot they have.

And then he goes and bring it back. That's the only thing he wanted me to steal. Not screens, not third down play, red zone place. It was just, I want to know what the bootlight game is. I want to steal something for the bootlight game. And that's, that's how much it just, it's kind of like to slowly trickle through everywhere. Because for years, everyone thought you couldn't do the Shanahan offense because you're like,

oh, the offense alignment have to be too small. Well, then the offense, that defense has got smaller. So offensive lines can get a little smaller. And everyone got super. Everyone's got athletic. Every position got athletic. So it's like, that was always the big drawback. It was just that, yeah, the guards are too small.

You can't drop back and pass. Well, they've figured out answers now for it, which is kind of funny. Some of them have. Some of them have. Some of them have. Some of them have. Some of them have. When they have to anchor, it's they're still too small.

Which is kind of funny. Hopefully a quarterback can move a little bit. There's so many different layers to it, but I just think it's so, so interesting. The Vikings one is funny, too, because 1998 for me, I was a Mariners, Sonics, and Mariners, Sonics, and Vikings fan. Vikings went 15 and 1. The Mariners were making the playoffs every year with Ken Griffith Jr. and A Rod and all those guys. And then I was a Sonics fan with Sean Kent and Gary Payton. That's when they just came off of playing, they played the Bulls into like a, you know, tough series.

And I was like, now I think that was nice stuff. And then I was like, man, sports are. great. Nothing ever happens. Nothing ever bad happens in sports. And then the NFC championship game happened with Gary Anderson. And so I had a great memory of 98 that started the season and had a terrible memory that ended at 98. And my childhood ended after that. That that process of figuring out why guys do what they do. I was talking to a defensive coordinator yesterday. And just like, why do you do this? And he walked me through all of it. And I was like, oh, that's fucking great. And I remember talking to Aaron Glenn last year. And we were talking about

some of the two high stuff the teams were running because he was in New Orleans, obviously, but I was like, why, you know, he was talked about how, yeah, I really wanted, when he was talking to Dennis Allen about doing more of that. He's like, I played for Vic when I was in so-and-so and just all of the different tentacles and like how guys develop, like, this is what I believe about football and this is why I want to run this is always so, so cool to hear. You're bringing up the boot stuff. And then like even like Jim Schwartz talking about the Y-9. Why do you start doing the Y-9? Because the Vikings would boot the shit out of them when they had Asia. It was like, then the defense's evolutions come because of that

answer. Oh, yeah, it's just, it's so fun to hear what the catalyst for everything is. All right. Let's get to our next one here, Kat. Hey, guys. This question is mostly for Robert. And it might be a bit of pandering, get on the show. But I'm genuinely curious. I'm traveling Chicago for about a week in a couple of months. And I know that Robert is a giant foodie. and I also have an affinity for delicious food that I haven't had before. So, Robert, I was wondering if you could give me some recommendations. It can be cheap holes in the wall. It can be one of the most expensive meals you've ever had in your life.

For what it's worth, I'll be staying in the River North area, but I'm curious about any recommendation that you might have in Chicago or the greater Chicago area. Thanks, guys. It's definitely pandering, but I do get this question a lot. So I feel like it was worth answering. I mean, there's so many different answers. I didn't realize it was a week. A week is a lot of time to fill.

I would have more suggestions. But I have a bunch. I live in Logan Square, so a lot of my food space has been taken up by that area. There's a Mexican place in Logan called Mitokaya Antohria. That is one of the best restaurants in Chicago. It's like one of the best restaurants in the country. Just really, really, really well done Mexican food, like elevated Mexican food.

I love it. I would highly recommend it to anybody who comes into town. It's a hard reservation. and make it look decently far in advance. There's a place in Logan called Lula Cafe, and it doesn't take reservations. It's a brunch place. It'll be on every list.

It'll be like, oh, man, this place really that good. It is that good. So it's on the weekend, if you get there at nine when it opens, and you put your name in, you won't have to wait very long. The regular menu is great.

They have seasonal specials that turn over all of the time, and the seasonal specials are always incredible. So that's why it's so good because it's always updating. I'd highly recommend that for brunch, if you're there for a time for brunch. There's a place in Wicker Park called Maru.

It's a Pan Latin place that was like our neighborhood restaurant. The chef just got nominated for a James Beard Award. Highly recommend that. Absolutely love that place. Estelle's is a dive down the road from there if you want to go hang out in like a dark bar afterwards. I used to go there a lot when I drank. And a couple other places. Pat's pizza for tavern style pizza, like thin cut squares.

It's in Lincoln Park. It's very, very good. That's probably my favorite thin crust place. Galit is like a Mediterranean, Israeli restaurant. that's, I think it has a Michelin Star now, that's in that same area in Lincoln Park. It's fantastic. It's like one of my favorite restaurants in the city. Pequods for Deep Dish, which is also in Lincoln Park.

If you want Deep Dish, it's got the caramelized crust on it. If I am going to get Deep Dish pizza, which I very rarely eat, that's typically where I would go. Another thing that I would suggest, go down to like Pilsen or Little Village, which is a little bit further south and west, really, really good Mexican food. And there are tons of good taco places. If you go down to 18th Street in Pilsen, you, you go down to, you're a little bit further south and Pilsen, you can just walk down 18th Street and just get a taco like every place you pass. There are times where I'll go do that.

Karnitas, Arupon is right, is down there. You can buy a pound of carnitas and it's amazing. But they have tons of great taco places down there. And if you're staying in a river north, Clark Street, alehouse is my favorite bar in the city. It's like, Clark in Chicago, place I used to go all the time, just great spot, really good hang on the weekend. You've been there with me a couple different times. So those are like a lot of my spots, but I have plenty of other options.

if you want to continue reaching out to me. That's amazing. I wrote that a couple already because my personal favorite is Rosebud on Taylor Street, which is just an old story. It's classic. Yeah, it's classic. Totally classic. Yeah, I know.

That's my always spot. Purple Pig was good. Purple Pig is great. ProPig is great. I'm just never over there in that direction anymore. That's all I got. That's all I got for my time in Chicago. I mean,

there are so many, so many places. I mean, the food city here is just, it's never ending. Chicago's amazing. You can find a new restaurant every single week that's opening. I've told you this before.

I don't think I've ever said on a pod, but Chicago, lived and traveled to many cities in America and Chicago is my favorite. And not just say that because of my co-host here, but it really is. You are not going to have to twist my arm about that. All right. Next one here. Brian Adams says,

I'm a Browns fan who is still candidly unhappy by the Watson trade, but still I have a question. Are quarterbacks too important in the NFL today? If you have to have one of, say, 10 human beings on the planet to win a Super Bowl, doesn't that harm the sport? Great non-QB players are essentially nice to have. Have quarterback salaries continue to escalate. Teams and quarterback purgatory are basically lost. And obviously one of those 10 human beings has character issues.

Well, we're living through what happens. The NFL could make passing less profitable, allow a little bit more pass interference, let D.Bs chuck 10 yards downfield, really, really in forceholding every time. I suppose the counterargument to this would make the game less visually appealing. Is that actually worse? The league has decided that it's worse. The league has legislated this into existence because they want the points and they want. the high-flying world and they want the superstar quarterbacks. I don't know if it's inherently better or worse for the game.

I think it's better for the interest in the game and for people watching the game and driving excitement about the sport. But I do think it's unfortunate if you're one of those teams who doesn't have one of these guys and you walk into the season and you're more or less screwed before the year even starts. The needle you have to thread now to win a Super Bowl is so, so, so small, even compared to what it was five, ten years ago, that I do think it has diminished interest from teams that do not have one of those guys.

Because you're always thinking about how you're going to get one if you don't have one. And that's an unfortunate thing to have to worry about if you're an NFL fan. So it's an interesting question. I haven't never really thought about it that way, but I do think that they're more important than they've ever been and it has fundamentally changed not only the way teams have to build,

but the way that we think about our individual teams. Yeah, the NFL, after the 2004 AFC championship game, hit a crossroads. It was, do we stick with what we're doing, which is defense, defense wins championships and run the ball, all this stuff. The Ravens had just won a couple years before. Patriots are there. Or this whole Peyton Manning throwing in the dome is pretty fun.

Do we make sure that he can get his yards and all the point? I think they decided in 2004 which way they wanted to go. And I think they've doubled down ever since then with every rule change that's happened. I don't know. I think sports are always going to be about who touches the ball the most. And basketball, it's the stars. You can't win without a star, you know, so does that ruin basketball? But wouldn't you say that has diminished the interest in basketball overall?

A little bit. I think it's always been like that, but we just discuss it more, if that makes sense. Like we use these terms more elite, rings, you know, those types of things become someone much more prevalent, but it's always been like that. Maybe, again, even in the Rockets case, they'd like in the 94-95 rockets, they're supposed to be the exception. They still had a chemoajuan. We've won 10 greatest players of all times.

Yeah. So it's, you know, it's always been there. But I think the natural progression was it used to be running backs. Running backs used to be, that's where you put your best player. That's what it was. I think that was what it was what used to be the best player or the best athlete. It was a running back. Hand the ball off, give it to him 30, 40 times, throw it 20 times.

Now it's quarterbacks got better and it's guys can throw the ball better. Look at every sport. Pitchers are throwing harder. Mechanics have just gotten so much better. And just like that, I think they just lean more towards it. I, as a former quarterback, it's really hard for me to say, no, this is awful. I wish I would say my one thing was I wish it was more viable to win with a non-elite quarterback.

I wish it was where you were like, yeah, you know, that above average quarterback that, that, you know, can't really win you every game. They could still win the championship, though. That would be my one wish. but I just, I don't know, it's out of Pandora's box now. Like, I mean, this is just what it is now. I just think whoever touches the ball the most and now it's viable to throw it 30 to 40 times. And so those guys are the best players on the field now.

I agree with you. And I do think that having fewer teams that could realistically win a Super Bowl going into the year does diminish the excitement a little bit, but you increase the excitement when you have these guys. Yeah. The idea that the Bill's Chiefs game from last year can exist to me. to me is worth the drawback of having fewer teams that can win a Super Bowl and fewer pathways to ultimately winning one. Yes, I agree.

And also like when you, yes, the quarterbacks matter, but they're throwing a ball up five, six, seven different guys. So it's actually more players are kind of like now tangible infecting the game as opposed to just one ace running back, workhorse running back and then one quarterback. It's like that. But when the workhorse running back was you're driving force of winning a championship, the 11 guys you had on defense were important. very important.

A championship. So it's where you wait it. I think offense, I mean, beyond quarterbacks, offense is more important than it's ever been. Offense is indispensable when you're trying to win a championship in a way that it wasn't a decade ago. I mean, it's happened fairly fast.

So, but I do think that, especially in the league's eyes, the entertainment value and the fantasy numbers and all of that kind of stuff. I mean, that those elements and those facets of the game, that is worth it to them. I think they're totally fine on that end.

Agreed. No, this is, scoring is good. Tank, can we get to our next one here? Hey, Robert and Nate. This is Mike from Chicago, a huge fan of the show. I listen to the recent salary cap mailbag and kind of had one big picture question since. I want to know in general if you guys think all of this is good for the league. Really just meaning all the maneuvering, converting to signing bonuses, void years. There's all this actually lead to a better on-field process.

and experience for the fans. I try to keep up with the NFL like everyone, but I still really struggle to understand all the moves that are made compared to, like, the NBA and the MLB, where I feel like I can better, like, assess good player value because I actually know how much the players are going to get paid and impact the salary cap when they sign the contract. So I guess overall I find myself just kind of frustrated

with the gamification of this front office maneuvering, even as a fan who, like, is interested in it, but I do understand maybe all this is necessary to continue the great on-field product that we had. So, once you're going to make a thought on this. Thanks, guys. My answer is undeniably, yes. It's fun as hell.

Yeah. I want, the more teams that are like, screw this, we're going to try to win. Yeah. That's great. Oh, yeah. I want every team to operate that way. Same.

And also, I think what he was getting at, that it's okay, it could be a little confusing. Well, 53-man rosters kind of. It's a lot different than 12 active guys like in the NBA. You know, that's going to lead to some confusion as well. We do a decent amount of it on this show. Early in the off season, we're doing the drafts and you're thinking about, you have to think about value as part of that exercise.

I think we can do a better job of not seeing sports through the prism of value all of the time. And the way that this pushes that conversation forward, it's like, you know what, let's go for it. Let's try to win. Isn't the whole point of this to try to win? Like that aspect of it where the Rams are trying to do this and you know the Saints That's a kind of a different conversation, but like the Vaughn Miller contract, right? Yeah

The bill's sitting there and saying this is it. This is our shot. Is the Von Miller contract a smart sound investment from the bills perspective? To give a six year contract to a 33 year old pass rusher? Probably not. Don't give a shit. There are certain times where it's like, I don't care. It's fun to watch these teams really go for it. And yeah, it can be different. I'm not. I don't give a shit. I don't care. It's fun to watch these teams really go for it. And yeah, it can be different. to parse value in some of these instances, but I think that what this does for driving player movement, driving discussion, driving how exciting teams are on the field if they can keep their core together, all of those, that's worth it to me. I think this is overall a good thing. More money being spent and more teams trying to win Super Bowls, I think is ultimately a very good thing for those of us who care about the sport. Yeah. And also, I think, and part of, like

was question is kind of just like, what is, yeah, is this a good thing? I also think it's fun to see teams get creative. I like, I like rewarding teams for being different or rewarding teams for zagging when other teams are zinging or as you're saying going all in. Like, I like that. Not everyone is at the same way. Not everyone is 75 overall. You know, everybody, some teams are better, some teams are were some teams are rebuilding some teams are reloading some teams are going for it i like that the nflb gives you flexibility to you know choose your own adventure i really i think that's what i like about the nfl salary cap as a whole if you want to go all in motherfucker you can like let's do it you can like the bucks right now right yeah bucks the bucks they are team for years yeah the bucks did not do

this kind of thing the bucks did not spend a ton of cash over cap and and stress themselves financially because there's no reason to. They weren't very good. But them doing that, they had a conversation, Jason Light and Mike Greenberg, who does the financing there, I think had a conversation with ownership, where I was like, all right, we won. Can we try to do this again? And the owner said, sure.

Like, you got the team? Let's do it. Let's stretch ourselves a little bit. Let's try to keep this core together. And they have a chance to put the pedal on the floor. And I think being able to do that and having a few of these teams that are really trying to push for it. And the whole point of this is not to extract the most value possible you can out of

your roster. It's to win championships. If you win one ring, it's worth it. One ring is worth millions. I mean, just like whatever. If you win one ring, everything else is rosy. We want to do these five to 10 year franchises where it's like, oh, man, look, they're 20 mill under the cap every year.

They got 12 first round picks, you know, that never happens. Like, yes, some teams can try. try to do that, but you have to win at some point. They have to convert to something at some point. Did you see the Brad Spielberg from PFF put out a chart a few days ago, maybe last week? Like the cap health? The cap health of every single team. And the bears have like $247 million in cap space over the next three years.

None of that shit matters. Like, it doesn't matter. Ultimately, it has to turn into something. But it's just really funny when you look at that chart. It's the most by far. Yeah, teams like Atlanta and I think the Giants are in that conversation, but the bears have the most money. It's like, oh, man, I can't wait to see how they screw this up. It's going to be amazing. I love what you preempt it too. Like, you just, it's, the bar is so low. Really?

I'm already terrified about it when they're sitting there next offseason with a 25 million. You're already looking at the 20, 23 free agents going, don't. I do it. I do it once a week. I do it once a week. I do it all the time. It's a super unhealthy way to spend. your time in life. All right. Last voicemail here, Kat. Hey, Robert. Hey, Nate. Of the teams that have questions at quarterback or the quarterback's not very good or they're just young, I'm wondering how you guys would write those teams based on what you think their ceiling is or their potential if the quarterback exceeds expectations. So it seems like the 49ers, the Dolphins, the Steelers, the Panthers. Jess, I'm sure you guys think of more.

But, yeah, I'm wondering how you guys would rank them if the quarterback does more than what we're expecting. Thanks, guys. Love the show. I didn't know exactly which teams to include here. I had six teams that I threw out. On top of the teams that he said, I also had the Eagles, which are another team I would include here.

So those are the six teams, and we probably put some others in there as well. maybe the Jags. That one feels a little bit different because I think he is going to take a step forward. It's more about their team overall. So those six teams, the five that he mentioned, plus the Eagles, the Niners and the Eagles are at the top in their own tier. Literally wrote the same exact thing. I could not verbatim, even put the same teams in order.

Or how you just said that sentence. That's amazing. I think the Niners at the highest ceiling. And the reason I think that is because Traylans is just a total unknown. Right? Even if we see incremental improvement from Jalen Hertz, I don't think there's a world where we're talking about Jalen Hertz at the end of the season as one of the most exciting young players in the league. We can say, oh, he has taken the job. He deserves to keep the job.

That to me is a win for Jalen Hertz and even for the Eagles maybe. But there's a chance that the Niners offense is just a firework show. Yeah. I don't know how realistic that. is, but it's certainly on the table. Yes. It's viable. It's like the Star Star Star Starter Bench Bus thing.

It's like there's that there's that 10% ish. That's like they go supernova and we see some really, really fun stuff that we've only seen glimpses up before. That keeps me in the back of my mind when I watch, I kind of regroup on the 49ers. So those two to me are in the top. I think the dolphins are kind of in their own tier in the middle. That's who I have next. So because their defense, that has real players on it.

and I like the receiving options. The line still terrifies me, but it is going to be better than it has been the last couple years. So if he takes a step forward, they're a legitimate playoff team. Yeah, right? Very feisty. Yeah, I think they're going to be a tough team to deal with every single week

if he takes a step forward. So I think they're, because I think the Eagles and the Niners, if Jaylon Hertz is an above average passing quarterback this year, the Eagles could be a Super Bowl contender. They're going to be great. Yeah. Their roster is really, really good.

I don't, I think the Dolphins are one tick down from that. I think they're a playoff team if two, it takes a step forward. I think everyone else is kind of one notch down from that. I agree. The Jets are still, there's so much uncertainty because it's not just the quarterback. Yep. You've young Pascatcher, your first round pick.

The offensive line is fine, but I think there are still some questions about it. So that and then the defense again, there's just so many new pieces. I think there's more uncertainty there. The Panthers. There are a 20-23 team to me. I think so, too. I think so, too. That's what they're billing towards.

I think the Jags are probably in that conversation as well, 20-23 team. So the Jets are a step down. The Panthers is just we know what the best version of Baker Mayfield is. So that's why they're limited. Yeah. That's a we stumbled into the playoffs and kept our jobs. That's success for them. Yes, that's success.

The Steelers, I think, are a couple years away. I mean, they're in a very weird transition period. Their line is, I think they have, do you see, I think they have the least expensive offensive line in the league this year? They're all babies. There's just so many questions about them. And the defense isn't rock solid. like it was in years past.

This is always going to be a growing pain season for them. So I still think even if pickets good right away, they're still not in the dolphins and certainly not the Niners or Eagles tear to me. I completely agree. I even teared it the same way. I had the dolphins and then a gap. Yeah, then I just said Jet Steelers Panthers all in the row.

And that's the same exact reasons you listed out. The Steelers, you know, Tomlin's going to get the best out of them. We all know that. But I mean, that offense can look like anything. I mean, it might, what, Trubiskey and Pickett are still battling it out. Who knows?

Like, you never know what's going to go in that situation, like for this year at least. There are certain teams this year. There's like a handful of them where I'm looking at them. Like, I have no idea what you are. No clue. Zero idea. There's a chance we're going to do a podcast about that in the next couple weeks. There's a chance.

There's a chance. There's a chance. Steelers might be in that group. All right. Last one here. Vivienne Olajdi says, Hey, guys, this question is related to the discussion you had on the episode with Stephen Ruiz about the value of receivers compared to other non-quarterback position groups.

between the position groups of offensive line, wide receiver, defensive line, and secondary. Assume each position group grades out as an a minus, but everything around said group is below average. Which unit is more likely to lead their team to the playoffs? Rank them in order of likelihood. I asked this question last year's Eagles and mine, below average quarterback, offensive weapons, defense coach, but a really good offensive line which gave them a floor that was difficult to mess up. Juxtapose them with teams like last year's Broncos, 2019 bucks, 2020 Cowboys, the lost Prescott's injury, who had really good receiving groups that couldn't quite overcome the mediocrity around them.

This is a great question. I loved it. Because it's not just about individual positional value. And what I am saying, when I say that, what I'm, what I have in mind is, I think a great superstar pass rusher is more valuable than a superstar corner because secondary is a weak link system. But if I'm ranking this, if you could tell me, me, I have a top three secondary in terms of coverage for an entire season. I think that's my answer. But it's so volatile from season to season that building that way and been investing in one guy, that is a little bit more scatter shot. But if you're telling me going into the year,

you're going to have an A secondary group. You're going to be one of the best coverage teams in the league. I think that's my answer. Like 2015 Broncos. But they have Von Miller. There are, if you go back and, you know, PFF grades are not the end-all, but I was kicking around with this because I thought it was, it's an interesting experiment. If you go look at the teams that are at the top in coverage every year, those teams are often playoff teams. That is volatile. That changes from season to season. The best example to me would be the Patriots from 2019, where you had this incredible coverage unit and it drove the best defense in football for most of that season. And so if you can bank on that, if I know it going. in, that's the group that I would pick. I don't know if I would build my team that way because it's so hard to consistently get great coverage play from an entire unit. Yeah, and I've seen some bad secondaries make it to the postseason do well. And that's what that's tough for me.

Old lines my answer. That's, I'll just get that shocking. Shocking, right? I know. And then after that, I honestly changed my answer about 20 different times because next I had D-line originally gun to head. In my head, it's 2019-49ers. That's the team you have to have in mind with that.

It was hard to get that out of my brain, but I still, that secondary played really well that year. They did. That was when Sherman was there, and that secondary was awesome that season. So I, it's easy, I lean defensive. My first knee-jerk reaction was defensive one with that same, nineers team in mind. But I think it consists, like last year's bills, for example. Yes. The secondary was just awesome.

And it has been for the last few years. So the best overall really good secondary play, I think if you look at the numbers is more predictive of success than any other thing on this list. But you can't build that way because it's super volatile from season to season. But with this very specific exercise, I think it's secondary because I know it's going to be good going in. That's my answer. So you're saying bottoms receiver no matter what, uh, I kind of, that's how I ended up with it. Two and three is interchangeable. I stuck with O-Line, but I can understand the argument with D-Line or secondary to be one, but the only one that I'd never argue for one.

And I was trying to was because I was trying to think of examples of this receiver room. It's because it's so dependent on a quarterback play. Yeah. That's the reason. All of these other ones, you can, that unit can be successful and impact the game independent of any other aspect of your team. With receiver, you need a real quarterback or it doesn't matter. Right. If I plop Tyrick Hill and I'm going to include Travis Kelsey here, but whatever, if I pop those two with

you know, Tribisky, you know, you don't need a lead quarterback play, but you need a quarterback who can allow your receivers to function.

Correct. And I think you can probably make an argument that even if you had an elite secondary, you need a pass rush that allows them to function, but you can cobble that together

in other ways. I was going to say, yeah, that's, you can manufacture pass rush. You can't manufacture quarterback play. Yeah, like, I know,

because like Legion of Boom, this is what I always, I go back and forth on with them, because, yes, their DVs were sick. But it was also, they had this awesome kind of cool pass rush where they rotated all these guys and they run all these games with four pass rushers. But then that's, yeah, that that's like what was the chicken in the egg there?

Was it then we'd be able to rush home before? Or is it, you know, of course, Richard Schumerer is incredible. Earl Thomas is incredible. Cam Chancellor was great. And like those guys, but that's that, I don't know. I go back and forth. I wish I had a good answer, which one I'd prefer. But they're like, that's a team.

That's very interesting to me. If we're taking it one step further where what is the, group that can operate independent of their help at other position groups, I think your secondary would need to be a secondary living man coverage because then you can manufacture the pass rush and then you're fine no matter what. You can be the Ravens from the last few years. But that's maybe one step further than we need to take this conversation. I think my answer is still secondary, even if you're a zone heavy team and everything else. But it's not what I would have said on an individual position basis. On an individual position basis, I still think that one receiver or

one pass rusher is more impactful than probably one corner is. But this, we know there's no weak link in a weak link system when we're having this conversation. Right. Oh, no. My answer for O line though, real quick, my just one sentence thing.

It's just that it lifts the floor. Just as, just how he brings up in the question. Like he answered my, it raises. Or she, Vivian. I don't know.

I'm not sure. Yeah. But, but I also have a little background. I think that's important too. So I think that's why. All right. That's all we got.

really good to be back, really good to be in late July, man. We are very, very close training camps open next week. Oh, my God, that's crazy. With that in mind, we're going to have some fun preview shows coming your way here over the next couple weeks. Very excited to bring that your guys' way. We're going to do some fantasy on Wednesday. It's fantasy time. Drafts are starting.

We're in that time in the calendar. Have a couple of my very good fantasy buddies coming on Wednesday to talk about just, you know, the state of the fantasy world as we get. ready to start drafting here. So please come back and check that out on Thursday. We'll be doing some training camp preview stuff on Friday. So we're here. We are getting very, very close to everything. So please come back and check those out. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform choice. I would sincerely appreciate that. Please subscribe to the athletic.com slash football show. If you like the show, we'd like to hear from you. We'll be back on Thursday. Until that,

talk to you guys soon. Paul show.