The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Mailbag: Best football timezone, playing for bad coaches, Elway's ideal QB, trading Derek Carr for Russell Wilson & more

Episode Date: January 4, 2022

It's almost playoff time, and your emails & voicemails are flowing in. From teams in need of a refresh to playoff worries, the All-Pro himself Mitchell Schwartz is here to shed light on playing in sour situations, what a Derek Carr for Russell Wilson trade could do for the Seahawks and the Raiders, finding some help for Ravens and Broncos fans, which timezone is truly the best for football and more with Robert Mays as week 18 arrives. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Today is Tuesday, January 4th. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today. It's my good friend, Mitchell Schwartz. Mitch, how you doing, buddy? Doing pretty good.

It's kind of nuts since the last week of the year already. It both feels that way and doesn't. It's also, Nate and I were talking about this last night. It's so strange for it to be January 3rd and for the regular season not be over. It's just weird that we still have more football. to go because always the last week of the year, the last weekend of the year, the start of January to me is the end of the football season. Like, Black Monday is January 1st. That's just how I have it in my mind. And not having it that way this year, it's going to take some getting used to on my end.

Yeah, the one I heard was Green Bay shouldn't play Rogers until it was like January 22nd or 23rd. I was like, oh my God, after the bye, he doesn't play until like the end of January. That was kind of nuts when I heard that specific date. So, yeah, it's different this year. It's going to be probably a few years until we recalibrate. I mean, I think all of us still call the Chargers, San Diego, every now and again. So that stuff usually takes a little while.

All right, guys, as always, thank you so much for sending in all of your mailback questions. We got a ton of voicemails this week, a lot of emails. Really appreciate everyone that takes the time to do that. Seriously, I know it's a long, long season. We feel it. I know you guys feel it. We're almost to the playoffs. So thank you for continuing.

your fervor here with the questions and the interests and all of that. Kent, let's get to our first voicemail. Hey, Rob. So I'm sitting here enjoying the win the Tennessee Titans had today, number one seed in the AFC, Tennessee Titans. And I'm hearing a lot of talk about Mike Brable for Coach of the Year. And I'm just kind of wondering, what is it about Vrabel you think that makes him such a good?

good coach because he doesn't really fit into, you know, the sort of offensive-minded, young, Lefleur, Shanahan, McVeigh, those kind of types. He's really more like a dude. So I'm just wondering what you think has been some, what's made him so successful in Tennessee. Obviously, they've had the most injuries this year out of any roster, Derek Henry, AJ Brown, Hugo Jones, all guys with us a bunch of time. And yet here we are, Tennessee Titans need to beat the Houston Texans to be the number one seed AFC.

So I just, just wanted to get your thoughts on that. Maybe Mitch has something to say on what it's like to kind of play for a guy like Brable, if he has before. So thanks. So this is interesting. And I feel like this came up in a conversation I was having earlier this week with somebody about coaching candidates and a guy like Mike Vrable. And, you know, we do want kind of the offensive mind du jour these days.

And I think it makes a lot of sense. You know, we see the success that somebody like Andy Reid has or like Sean Payton has had or like Sean McVay has had. Kyle Shanahan, you know, these guys that kind of are this archetype. And Mike Vrable is not that. So I wanted to ask you this from kind of this angle, Mitch, when you guys played against them, how would you describe the type of team the Titans were during the Mike Vrable tenure when you guys face them? A very good team.

We didn't have the most success against them. It felt like those were always tough games and or we lost, you know, the one year. We went there. I think it was Pat's first game after his injury. And so that one was a little bit different. but kind of a weird game. They ended up pulling it out. We had some difficulties down the stretch.

I think we had a third in one or third and two. We didn't convert. Had some field goal issues, and they ended up pulling it out. We played them a few other times, and it's just always a good game. Defensively, you know you're going to face a pretty good team because, you know, I don't know if he's specifically the guy who's in charge of the defense's scheme and structure, but it does have that Belichick route. They force you to do stuff that, you.

You don't necessarily want to do. They do some cool things with their defense alignment and their linebackers, and you get to third down, and you're not quite sure who's rushing, who's not. They have the full gamut of the bloods package. And then they do the little stuff, the kind of Patriot stuff, like they, on short yard situations and in field goal situations, they do that move call where the whole defensive front screams move, and then those guys move, and they try to get you to jump off sides on offense. And so if you're kicking a 49-yard field goal, they want to push it to 55.

four yards, that's what they'll do. If it's fourth and one and you're trying to go for it, that's what they'll do. We saw the chiefs do that successfully against the Bengals yesterday. The refs didn't see it, so they didn't call it. But that is kind of happening throughout the NFL, and they're a team that's been at the forefront of that. We've obviously seen Ravel's clock shenanigans and understanding how to manipulate it and stuff. So he's extremely smart. He knows how to coach. He's a tough guy himself, and he coaches his team tough. So they're in that Belichickie mold where they play good football, they play smart football, they understand situations really well, and they've got studs kind of at every position on top of that. So it's a good blend of all those

things. And you went to that game knowing they're going to be well prepared, they're going to play hard, and it's going to be a tough game. You look at it. We talked about this a little bit last night. I think uniformity is the word that I used. And the guy that I keep coming back to on that offense when I'm watching that offense this year is just how well David Cuisenberry has played within the role that they ask him to play. And just like, as a run blocker, just dropping in a guy like that into the overall mix and how just even with backup offensive linemen over the last couple years, how they've been able to be successful.

You could talk about all the injuries you want to this year, and they've endured a ton of them. But if you look at it last year, they're playing with backup tackles for a chunk of the season, and it really didn't end up mattering when you look at overall their offensive efficiency that they had over the course of the year. And I just think the ability to kind of cycle these guys in and out, at really important positions, at positions maybe we aren't thinking about as much. That's impressive to me.

Just the ability to kind of sustain and endure when you think about everything they've had to deal with this year. I think that speaks to coaching. It speaks to what the mindset probably is in the building every single day. Well, absolutely. And I think that goes to, as you said, coaching and also the longevity of it because it's not just one position group for a couple of weeks. It's not one position group for a whole season. And it's multiple position groups over his entire tenure there. And they lost the guy that we thought was going to be the focal point of the team in Henry.

And they had a couple bad games and games that maybe they didn't play as well they wanted to. But again, here we are last week. And all they have to do is beat a kind of crappy Texans team and they get the one seat in the EFC. So he's clearly endured. You know, the aspect of having guys ready, I think that really does go back to coaching. And that goes back to training camp. and being able to develop your full roster, you get a ton of time to practice in training camp.

Well, less than less with every CBA. We keep fighting to take that away from coaches. But that's the time where you develop your starters, how they're going to be for the season, and also the depth. And we talk about depth a bunch, but certain coaches have the ability to make those guys better and understand, yeah, you're going to have injuries across the board.

So you're back up and maybe the next guy after that need to be starter quality when they get in there. One training camp, if you're a team that only operates with, we're going to give the ones most of the reps and we're going to neglect the younger guys and the backups. Well, there has to be a developmental plan for those guys. They either need to get more practice, more reps, maybe on a side field. They have a bonus day where they're practicing against each other.

Obviously, whatever, and the rules, I'm not saying nothing against the rules. Or you have to be really good in an individual period. So you're developing their skills and you're trusting that when they do get the chance in game situations, they've got that fundamental foundation to succeed. Or, you know, a combination of those two. And you're also, you know, some coaches in training camp split the reps like 5-5-5. So 5 for the ones, 5 for the 2s, 5 for the 3s. And they do a couple weeks of that because they want to get everyone equitable to rep equitable reps and the younger guys need more than the starters. Some coaches are like, screw this. Our starters are going to be the guys who are playing. We need to get

them ready for the season. Let's go 8-5-2 or 8-5-3. So in that situation, the starters are disproportionately getting more reps. The third string especially is getting the least, and you can argue those are the guys who needed the most in terms of overall football development. So whatever April is doing, I don't know how the Patriot style does their practice. I know that it's a little bit different in the sense that they don't give their guys scripts.

They don't give them, hey, these are going to be the plays in this order against this defense, and this is what we're going to have. And so, you know, I call it script watching, but a lot of guys who aren't very confident or who don't want to screw up their practice, they get the scripts beforehand, they read it through, they know all the plays, they study those plays. Well, from my understanding, some of the New England guys, there's a blank script. The coaches know what they want to do. And sometimes Belichick doesn't even give them a script.

It's just, all right, these are the situations. I'm going to present them to you as they come, and he's coaching the coordinators as long as, as well as he's coaching the players. And it's totally random, and they just had to figure out on the fly. So, free will definitely tapped into something there to, coach develop the depth and as they lose guys just keep chugging and doing it at a pretty good level. That's so interesting. I mean, I guess that feels like that's at the root of that method and that approach is just to make sure that you're not giving people the answers before the real-time approach that they have to use.

Essentially, yeah, you just don't want to over-prepare them and you could argue that a team's first 15 is over-preparing them for the game and they need to be ready for all the other situations. but for the most part, everywhere I've been, practice is scripted and guys have access to that, and especially guys who don't quite know what they're doing as much. Say you're a receiver's coach and your receivers aren't on it. You want to give the receivers a script so that when practice comes around, they're running the right routes, they're on top of it. You don't look bad as a coach. And so some coaches rely on that too much as well.

And there are times where you have move the ball periods or unquote unscripted periods to the player's point of view and you're kind of just spotting things live as they happen. But I've never been anywhere that just doesn't have a script and we'll even challenge the coaches to just, hey, you've got to figure it out on the fly. There are times, you know, like I said, certain periods, maybe you're playing it live at one or two practices in camp or maybe this other situation is happening, but not, nope, no script for everyone, players, coaches, staff, we all got to be on our toes. Here's a situation.

Let's roll. And I think it's a really good idea. It obviously coaches those guys to be able to think on the fly and to adapt to situations and sudden change. All of a sudden maybe Belichick's like, hey, there's a turnover, you know, defense got on the field. That's really strange. That would have definitely thrown me off. Obviously, you adapt to the change as much as you can. But it is a cool concept.

I think he's just one of the few to actually execute that because everyone else is so preparation-oriented that it would throw them off to not have that sense of comfort in the practice script. All right, let's get to our next one here. Douglas Galassias. The last two weeks, we've seen two losing franchises recommit themselves to either a struggling coach, the Giants with Joe Judge, or the GM, the Jags with Trent Balke. He asked how long this would set a franchise back,

a move like this. But he also asked, which is what I wanted to ask you, how do moves or non-moves like this affect players? How do players view it when they have to play for a coach or GM, who clearly is not the answer? He figured you might have some insight here based on your time in Cleveland. Well, thank you for presuming that. I would say it factors in a little bit. In my situation, I was going into my fourth year and I probably would have accepted a deal from Cleveland if they had come with a deal strong enough. And that wouldn't have been enough to deter me to move on. Some guys would be in that situation and be like, man, I've been here for three years. It's been a crappy situation. They're going to keep these same guys. And I don't want to be here for any of that. And so you're looking at your free agent class potentially. tuning things out to the degree that they don't want to sign back.

You know, a guy who isn't a fan of the Joe Judge era isn't going to go into this next year. And all of a sudden, no, we're eight and eight and now I'm going to be ready to sign back. Like, those things don't typically happen. They're going to go into the year thing. All right, this is my last year with the Giants. I'm going to have a good year. I'm going to have free agency. I'm going to bounce.

So that's part of it. I think in free agency, at the end of the day, the money talks. and if the money's equal, maybe a team chooses someone else. Say, I was going to say Green Bay was the first team that came to mine, but they don't play the free agent game quite as much. But say the Bears came to you and wanted to sign you, and your two options were going to Chicago for X-Price and going to the Giants for X-Price.

And Chicago's got a new head coach, potentially a new GM, and things look a little bit better. They've got Justin Fields. At that point, you're probably going to take Chicago for similar money or even slightly less than the Giants. and the Giants would have to pay you enough money to make it worth it to go to a worse situation. Or in Jacksonville, I think that's a little bit better situation than the Giants at this specific moment because of the quarterback and a couple other things there. But it does play with you a little bit.

And if you're a player on that team and you feel like in the Giants case, again, the coach isn't the one to leave the team for the future, it feels a little bit defeating to go into the air being like, man, I know this guy can't coach and this sucks. and it's not going to be very fun, and he makes us run laps and all these other things. Now, guys can turn it around and things get happy in that situation. For Jacksonville, it's a little bit different with the GM. I mean, as long as the coach creates a good environment for you, I think you have a decent enough time. You can just be like, man, that guy sucks.

He can't draft anybody. We've got all this weak talent and we suck. But as long as the coach is fine and you trust that guy and the work environment day-to-day is good, that kind of trumps, you know, who's picking the guys in the, the draft. How much of just overall conventional wisdom and shared knowledge are shitty coaching situations? Like how much do players talk and how much institutional knowledge is there of, oh, that's a bad situation. You wouldn't want to be part of that. Because when you're in your own building, I wonder how much you hear from outside people. I would say when you're in your own

building, you don't hear about it too much. I think the league has changed a little bit since I was younger and guys talk more and people move around a lot. Not that I was like pre-free agency or anything, but it is a little bit more information shared and everyone knows each other and people have each other's contact info and stuff. So guys are sharing notes on situations. But I'd say, you know, in the moment, especially for me,

like as a young guy, I remember we were talking about, oh, which coaches did you like in Cleveland, which coaches didn't you like? And I was saying, oh, well, I liked this guy or I didn't like that guy. And Joe's like, oh, no, that guy sucked. He's the worst coach we've had here. and this guy's better and blah, blah, blah. And you're entitled to your own opinion.

You know, everyone has a different feeling of which coach you like, which style you like, who you think got the most out of the team, things of that nature. So it's interesting. And you typically, whatever your older guys are saying is kind of what you go with because you trust those guys. I mean, I'm going to trust what Joe Thomas says about coaches and how they do and how they're, you know, compared against the other seven guys he's had in his six-year career versus what I know to to be true. So you kind of go with the veterans and the guys you think understand the situation. And that's the tricky part is if the coach has lost the team and he's lost those older guys and

you bring him back and now the older guys are a little bit disgruntled and don't like the coach, don't like the direction. Well, that's going to bleed south into the younger guys. And that's when it gets to be a really tough situation. Were there ever places you don't have to say where when you were hitting free agency where it would have been no? The money at a certain point didn't matter. Like they were scratched off your list because you just had no interest in going there? If there were the, I don't remember and they didn't manifest, you know, that came down to essentially two teams at the end of the day.

So I didn't have too much of a choice and both of those teams were teams that I would have gone to. So it, uh, there wasn't really any off the top of my head that are just automatic knows that I remember because again, that's the misconception of free agency is that, oh, I'm free and maybe my old team didn't want me, but there's 31 teams and I'm going to go. go find the best offer and they're all going to compete with each other. It's like, no, there were two teams willing to pay even $6 million for a right tackle at the time.

And we had to negotiate our way up to become like the fourth highest paid right tackle, which you're supposed to be the first when you're the best guy who's hitting free agency. So free agency isn't about, oh, these eight to ten teams, I'm going to go find them and choose them. And I can disregard one or two of them. For the most part, there's only a select number of teams that come to you are willing to meet the price that you want. And then from there, you can negotiate.

So that's why I say it's pretty much money first. And from there, if you have two or three teams interested, then you can start making those types of decisions of, oh, this organization is not on the right track. I don't like that coach. I've heard this from other guys. And you can start to parse that out a little bit. But for the most part, with the way the NFL works and the way money works, I mean, if a team's offering 500,000 to a million more per year, if not more, that's the decision. Yeah, that's what I've heard from other guys as well, which I was the first time I heard that I was a little bit surprised. And now, as I've heard it more and more over the years, I understand that's just kind of how it goes.

All right. Let's get to our next voice here, Kat. Hey, Robert and Mitch. I have one important question. You both have lived and played football in a couple different time zones, watched football in a couple different time zones. And I just wanted to know what's the best time zone to watch and play football in. Thanks.

Bye. I'll let you take the play football one first because I have thoughts. on the watch football one. I think Central is the best to play because your games at noon as opposed to one o'clock, which I really prefer, you are able to then get home and watch the other games. Obviously with the Chiefs,

we didn't have too many opportunities to just play like static noon games at home. It seems like we were 325 or primetime most of the time. But in Cleveland, I'll talk about that. You know, games are at 1 o'clock. We're in Eastern time. We were mostly at 1 o'clock because we were at Cleveland. Our division, Cincinnati was a 45-minute flight.

Pittsburgh, we bused to because it was two and a half hours and it was easier to travel that way. Baltimore was the tough one to get to because you have to fly to D.C. and then drive to Baltimore, but that's still, you know, a two-and-a-half hour round trip. And you just didn't have to travel too much if we played, say, the NFC North, you're traveling to Green Bay and you're traveling to Detroit. Well, those are right there. Those are quick flights. So 1 o'clock games, if it was a home game, you know, I'd be home by 515, 530, which means halftime of the afternoon slate. So I could watch the whole second half of the afternoon slate.

I could grab dinner and then I could watch the rest of Sunday night football. We'll get into which times are best for watching. But that's the plus to, you know, playing for Cleveland. And then in that same situation, if it's a road game, you know, the flight back is pretty quick. And so I was able to get home, get food, you know, be happy, being my lazy boy before the Sunday night football game started. So I can watch the whole Sunday night football game. That was really cool for me. Now, for, you know, playing, that would have been nice if it was 12 o'clock instead of 1 o'clock because it just pushes everything up, which bleeds into our next point, which is, which is the best for watching.

I think it's mountain time. I think that's awesome because I like being able to wake up and 11 o'clock is when football starts. I think 10 o'clock's awesome. I've long said West Coast because I grew up in L.A. That's what I'm used to. I've shifted a little bit because I've gotten a little bit into golf the last couple of years and it would be nice to wake up, be able to play nine holes, get home by 10, 10.30, eat some food and 11 o'clock football is on.

And for watching purposes, I just don't want primetime games to start past 6.15. I want them to be over at 9.30. I'm someone that goes upstairs around 9, 9.9.30, falls asleep. around 10, 1030, 11. I just don't want to stay up that late. So mountain time kind of bridges the gap between a little bit early on the West Coast and central time. And I absolutely would not want to watch football on East Coast time.

Eastern time is the worst. Undeniably, East Coast is the worst because starting at 1 o'clock on a Sunday, it's way too long. I mean, if you're a normal person and you're up by, I don't know what time you wake up. I wake up at like 7.45, 8 o'clock most days. that is way too long to wait for the games to start. Central time, I have come around on a little bit for this reason. I enjoy having a little bit of time in the morning because for me,

the Labor Day weekend through, let's say, Halloween, it's still decently nice in Chicago. You can go to the farmer's market. You can enjoy your morning. You can go for a walk and spend some time with the dog, all that stuff. And I enjoy that part of it. If it was 10 a.m. now, it's just too early. I wouldn't want to roll out of bed and have my day start watching football.

So that's why I like the central time. Mountain time is an interesting argument. I have not thought about that. Mountain time might kind of be the perfect middle ground between those two things. It's absolutely the perfect time. The more you think about it, the more you realize like, wow, this is perfect. Because even if you wake up 745, 8, you have three hours to get what you need done, which you can do.

Yeah. I'm someone who wakes up between 630 and 7.15. Like I'm lucky if I get to 7.30 where I just, oh, I wake up, look at the clock. oh man it's 730 that's awesome like i'm not that guy so for me it's you know 45 minutes earlier wake up time than than you're talking about so i think mountains the best as i said i've long said west coast is the best but i realize a couple pluses especially like i said going into golf when if you're someone who works and you also like golf you can't really play during the week too much and so you're stuck playing on the weekend once the fall comes around there's plenty of nice fall days you want to

play golf in the morning and not miss any NFL action well at 11 o'clock time start definitely works obviously east coast time you could wake up and get on the course at seven and play a full 18 but that's another discussion of golf whether nine or 18 is better to play anyway so well also you're watching the games at one in the morning then i mean it's just way too late yeah i think we both agree eastern just absolutely the worst it's unacceptable i can't even understand how people operate that way i wouldn't mind having it'll be a little bit earlier just because of the sunday schedule i'm on but for the standard person i think that's fine when i was 23 and i was hung over pretty much every single

Sunday morning, that was a terrible way to watch football at 10 a.m. every single week. Now, it's a little bit different. It's not really a consideration anymore. So I feel like Mountain is the right answer, but I have never really watched football in Mountain Time. So I can't say for sure. All right. Let's get to our next one here, Kent.

Hey, Robert. Big fan. Ravens fan here. They've lost their last four games by a combined five points. Just tell me that things are going to be great. next year and they're going to win the Super Bowl. Or just give me something positive. So Harbaugh's first, five-game losing streak isn't for nothing. Thanks.

Love the show. So Zach Aments sent an email and said, besides getting healthy, what would you do to improve the Ravens for next year? I feel like we could combine those into one question here. As you're looking forward for Baltimore, what do you think the next year in terms of the tweaks that they could make and the next step that they're going to take? What should it look like? A team that you have played against, thought about had to consider.

a lot over the last few seasons here. They got to get the O-line right. Getting Stanley back healthy, whatever he needs to do to feel right. You know, that he got a well-deserved contract before he got hurt and unfortunately got hurt right after that. And he's been out a year and a half now because of it. So finding a way to get him healthy, get him feeling right,

and solidify the whole O-line. They just signed their right tackle to a nice little deal. Another Cal guy, which is good to see. They've got some good pieces on the inside, but not where it's been, especially historically. I think figuring out what the offense is going to look like because they have trends it a little more pass-heavy. It's not the old 22 personnel, full-back guys on the field, two tight ends.

We're going to slog the ball at you and play action. They are willing to spread it out. Lamar's been a lot better at that. Obviously, the cover zero stuff has been as downfall a little bit since the Miami game, aside from health. So figuring that out if they are going to go a little bit more pass-heavy. But I think they have enough threats in the receiver room. and obviously when they're running max get healthy for next year,

I think really getting that O-line right, so they can be versatile, they can run the ball when they need to, they can drop back and throw it when they need to. I think that's the biggest thing for them going forward. And for the caller, the record, and I think like one-score games, and especially in one or two-point games,

evens out over time. So they're in a little bit of an unlucky streak right now, and I'd like to let you know that that should balance itself out next year and don't be too discouraged for the future. it does feel like the offensive line is kind of the first thing that they have to think about. Obviously getting Stanley back is going to be huge. Zyler will be there again next year, right? He's on a multi-year deal.

He's on a free agent deal he signed last year. Yes. So he'll be there next year on a pretty reasonable deal. They will bring McCarie back like you just said. He signed a free agent contract. So we'll see what they do with some of the interior spots, whether they feel like they need an upgrade there. Having Bateman for the entire season,

it should obviously be big. They're going to have the running backs back. I feel like personnel-wise, there's probably not a ton of you to think. about outside of the offensive line. Defensively, I think it's just a matter of getting healthy, right? They get Peters back. They get Marlon Humphrey back.

I mean, just that's the most important thing. Getting most of those guys back healthy will be the biggest step that they can take. Outside of that, do you feel like there's anything just in terms of schematic tweaks, the next stage their offense should take, the next form their offense should take? Or do you think that they're close and this is more about tinkering than any wholesale changes? I think it's more about tinkering. and it's tough to separate the schematic stuff from the injury stuff, and especially when your offense knows going into a game,

our defense is depleted. And it seemed like Wink was blitzing a little bit less maybe at the beginning of the year when you had some health. And as the injuries have taken their toll, you kind of get back to, ah, screw it, let's just splits and more of an all-or-nothing situation. I mean, this past game, they had three healthy edge rushers. Like, in a normal situation, yeah,

maybe you're only playing those three guys for the, you know, duration of the game, but you have a fourth guy who can go in if needed, and if anyone gets hurt, then you're stuck with two guys have to play the entire game. And that's just not a good situation. So they definitely need to get healthy. I think they've got coordinators and they've got a team that has had a lot of success before. So I think looking schematically and saying they need to go through wholesale changes, I don't think that's the case in particular because I would say offensively they did make a bit of a shift this year. Defensively has been such a mess that, you know, Wink has done a pretty good job navigating that.

And I mean, they're still in these games. They're still close to winning these games. And as we said, these one and two point games, it definitely evens itself out over time. Yeah. I mean, it's just, I think it's kind of staying in the course, both in terms of schematics and adding to the roster. I mean, going out and just kind of adding the pieces in the same way that they have before. They've done a really good job of developing guys over the last five, seven, ten,

10 years. And I think just sticking to that formula is ultimately going to benefit them, right? Like, O.A. will be a year older next year. I mean, you still have most of those defensive backs when they get back healthy that they can rely on. So keeping the train on the tracks is probably the answer. It is unexciting as that may seem when you have a little bit of a disappointing end to a season. All right. Next one here, Scott Gary asks, regardless of how the game goes on Sunday, do you think the Raiders could be the most attractive job for a high profile coach? I feel like the defense is finally stable and has pieces and a good offensive coach like Kalamora Byron or left which could bump this unit up a notch to become a solid contender.

I'm not willing to say that. It's the best job by any stretch. I'm just curious where you feel like it falls because we never really talked about that at all. It's been a while since they moved on from John Gruden, obviously. So it kind of has fallen by the wayside. What kind of job do you think this Raiders job is, just as you stack it up against the ones that might come open? It's probably in the top quarter of jobs just because, again, the defense is a lot better. They have some pieces.

Crosby has turned himself into a pretty awesome rusher and defensive piece for them. Carr we've talked about is better, I think, on the whole, than people give them credit for. The O line is up and down, and when they're playing well, the offense is spectacular, and when they're not, the offense is not so good. But they do have some pieces there, and they've got a bright future in a few of the spots. offensively, again, the weapons, they've done a much better job. They've got some guys. They've got one of the top tight ends when he's healthy. And so it is a good job.

I think the biggest downside to it is you're entering a division that has Patrick Mahomes and Justin Herbert. And as good as your team is, that's going to be a three-way race pretty much every year, and you know that guaranteed. And that's what makes it a little bit tough on the whole is that you can say, okay, we've got this great team, great situation, a lot of talent, just got to come in and really solidify the offense and the defense is going to keep progressing. But we have to beat Mahomes twice a year.

We have to beat Herbert twice a year. The Broncos always have a good defense, and if they ever find a quarterback, they've got some offensive weapons as well. So it's just, it's a tough situation. When you look at Jacksonville, okay, Frank Reich is awesome, but are we really that scared of once in our division? No, the Texans, are we afraid of Mills in our division? No. Tennessee is going to be there all the time, but we've kind of seen Tanil isn't. that top eight bona fide quarterback and so you're walking into a situation with maybe not quite as good

of a team at the moment but a better overall division to win in and i think you should take those things into account you know for the most part you can't really predict year to year oh this team's going to be great this team's not i think that's a little bit variable but over five and ten year stretches with two quarterbacks who were 23 and 26 you've got a pretty good sense that that division's going to be tough for the next decade. Yeah, and I think it depends kind of on what they see cars future as and what the front office looks like. The front office making that decision what it's comprised of.

Is Mike Mayock back? I mean, all of those things about organizational stability, I feel like that would be another thing to worry about if you were walking into that situation, just because it hasn't been the most stable place. And they've kind of made some rash decisions when it comes to who was going to be running the team, how they were going to be running it. I mean, I think, feel like that has to be part of it. And with Jacksonville, outside of Trevor Lawrence, you have a blank slate of a roster.

Good or bad, you have a blank slate to work with as you try to build this thing. So I think there are arguments on both sides of it. I think if you want to keep Carr, if they say, we want to build around Derrick Carr, that makes it a fairly attractive job in my mind because you could do a lot worse starting over with a franchise than Derrick Carr as your quarterback. So it's interesting. I just haven't really thought a lot about it. But if you wanted to build around a core of Carr, Waller, Miller, Renfro, Crosby, and some of the young defensive backs that they have, that's not the worst thing in the world.

No, it's pretty good. And we talked maybe a month or two ago about Carr's value. And I thought he was worth at least two first round picks, if not three, because that's the effort of deal is looking a little bit worse for the Rams and the rest of the league. If you're trying to trade for someone else pretty much every week. So, yeah, he's one of the better quarterbacks in the league on the whole. You know what you're getting. A lot of these young guys, fields have shown a ton of promise.

Lawrence is in a lot of people's eyes, a victim of the circumstance, and so has all the potential. But Carr's done it for pretty much a decade now, and he's done it in a pretty decent clip. And, yeah, maybe he's proven that he's not the singular piece that elevates a good team to a great team, but he is a guy that can be great with the right team, and we're sitting here saying he's got a pretty good supporting cast already. So a few tweaks here and there, and now you've got a great team and a quarterback who's playing awesome ball. So I do think it is a pretty good situation and a pretty good situation and better roster on the whole. And I think it's the external things like you said, like the GM, like the stability and also the division and competing with those two guys every year. I mean, they've got still some leftovers from some pretty rough decision making over the last three or four years, right?

Like that's going to be the case. Kenny and Drake set to make $8 million next year. Corey Littleton set to make $15.8 million next year. I mean, they've handed out a lot of contracts because they've drafted really. poorly over the last five seasons. But I still feel like there's enough of a core of talent, especially if they wanted to build a round car, which I think at this stage might be worth it, right? If you're looking at it and you're looking at the next five years, you're looking

at where you're going to be drafting, what you could get for him in a trade, what this quarterback class looks like. It feels like just rolling with him and trying to build around. He's only 31 is going to be a more advantageous path than trying to start over with another quarterback. It's like that the mystery box. things. Like we could trade Derek Carr for a mystery box. Who knows? It might be Derek Carr. That's kind of what it feels like to me. Right. Has anyone gone through the Derek Carr for Russell Wilson

package? Have we talked about that? Like seriously to try to figure out what would work for both sides? Because that one's sitting out there, the Raiders don't have the pure draft capital to go get a guy like that, but they do have a pretty good quarterback that can send back with it. And that was one of the things when we were talking to Sean Watson trades is, oh, well, Miami sends TSA Tua back with it and at the time and maybe now as well people are like, eh, I'm not sure that's who you're going to want back and deal with the dolphins will just take the draft picks

and they had some good draft picks. But yeah, it's an interesting one and we could probably try to figure out Carr plus this and you get Wilson and Wilson's values probably at the lows that's been in a while. So that could be an interesting one down the road to get into, probably some off-season fodder.

You're looking at it right now. Derek Carr yesterday is thrown to Zay Jones Foster Moreau and Hunter Renfro. We established on the last night's show. Hunter Renfro is just good. Like, he is a good player. That's fine. If we want to slot him into whatever role he's in,

he is a good player. But there's really not much other receiving talent on this team when Darren Waller isn't playing. If you do not have another outside receiver, period. So that's kind of what it feels like. I mean, just imagine this team with Justin Jefferson if they had done that last year. You know, this team, I feel like that's the next step here.

is if you really want to build around him, what does that look like? They have a decent amount of cap space next year. There absolutely is a world where if they're committed to this core and to Derek Carr moving forward, you can talk yourself into what that looks like and it looking pretty good. So if you're an offensive-minded head coach and you've always liked Derek Carr, you kind of think, he's an underrated quarterback. Like, I absolutely could do some stuff with him. I do think that there is a level of attraction to that job.

Yeah, I agreed. and I guess we'll see what happens. It'll be interesting. All right. Let's get to our next voicemail here, Kat. Hey, Robert and Mitch. This is Matt from Denver. Shout out, Lindsay Jones.

I just saw the Broncos have lost nine plus games in five straight seasons for the first time since 1968. And basically Elway, just been trying to patch together the QB position ever since Manning retired. Had a couple bad draft picks like Paxton Lynch. But I just wanted to know what you guys think the Broncos need to do

other than fix the QV position to get back in contention. Matt also asked you. about, you know, a little bit of our team's figuring out Vic Fangio, you know, what else kind of needs to happen from that side of it. I'm curious, outside of the quarterback is an interesting way to frame this, because that's what we talk about with the Broncos all the time, right? They just need a quarterback. They need to figure out what that looks like. Outside of the quarterback spot, what other kind of prongs of this plan would you want to see from Denver here over the next few months?

Finding a way to make their fans not feel so sad when they call in. I felt so bad for Matt. He sounds so beaten down. I know, man. I mean, I mean, if I was looking at five straight, nine plus lost seasons, I guess I'd feel the same way, but that was, I felt for him, man. I'd say pass rush, figuring out a way to get your pass rush back to the way it was. And they moved on from Vaughn. Clearly, they weren't going to keep them into the next season, and they got some pretty

good value for them because I'm sure they asked the Rams, hey, can we get a fifth round pick? And the ram said, no, we'll give you a second. And a third. And a third. But figuring out a way to make sure that pass rush is back to the way it was. And we talk about the Broncos defenses of old. And, yeah, they had Talib.

And they had some pretty good linebackers. And they had other good guys in the second and third levels. But it all started with that front and started with two Hall of Famers and Von Miller and DeMarcus Ware. And they had some good guys on the inside, especially when they had Malik, Jackson. And so they have pieces now. Obviously, Bradley Chub's a guy we've been talking about for a few years, who, when he's healthy and feeling good. he's been a pretty good player. They got a few other edge guys they're excited about.

Shelby Miller in the middle has been a pretty underrated player on the whole for the past few years, but I don't know if he's one of the guys that's going to be a top five or top eight interior rusher that we talk about. So finding a way to get that front four, front five, however you want to look at it, back to being the part of the defense that really steers it. We've seen a few times over the last maybe five to eight years where a team has had just a dominant secondary and they've been able to really ride that to a lot of success. But to me, that's a little bit more variable and a little bit tougher than finding pass rushers

and having a front four that really lock things down because you can be an awesome secondary and it's just hard to hang on to receivers for five or six seconds if you guys just absolutely cannot get home. The flip side is if you got guys to get home, maybe they don't get home in two or three seconds every time, but they'll get there in three and a half, four, four and a half seconds and cause enough pressure on the quarterback. I think on the whole you'd rather the quarterback be affected and have less time and not feel comfortable than the quarterback feels good in the pocket and he feels secure but no one's open. I think long term and I'm going to say long term, this is in a game scenario, but long term for that specific game,

I think you'd rather get to the quarterback, make him feel uncomfortable, have him not want to stand in the pocket and feel like he needs to get the ball out. Maybe that guy has success in the first couple of quarters, but I think on the back end, that's going to be better for your defense than. then, oh, we clamp the guys on the outside, but the quarterback feels comfortable in the pocket. So finding a way to get that pass rush back to the way it was. Obviously, I'm not saying you can go find two Hall of Famers to put on the edges and terrorize quarterbacks. But I think making that a priority, and they've got great personnel on the outside. That's really what's making the defense go.

So they've got those pieces, and if they can add another pass rush or two and or develop the guys they have into that next level, I think that's going to be the key to push them over. I think that's a great point. And if you look at it, I mean, obviously Chubb has been banged up most of his career. He's been in and out of the lineup, which is something to consider there. They have draft capital. They have some money to throw around. I mean, I'll be curious what they view as their priorities and kind of how they want to retool this thing. I would want to do everything I could to retain Mike Munchak no matter what the next coaching staff looks like. If you could convince him to stay, kind of keep going with that development you've seen from their offensive line. You have the weapons on the outside. They've already resigned him. Patrick and Cortwin Sutton. You have Giovante Williams there. No offense going to be there. So you can drop the right quarterback into that circumstance and kind of continue some of the positive continuity you've seen with the coaching staff. That's a good thing.

And then, yeah, I mean, you need players up front because they have Ronald Darby coming back next year. They'll have Patrick Sertan. They'll have Justin Simmons. And that middle of the defense, both on the defensive line and at linebacker, I think is kind of the next consideration. But again, there's a lot of wiggle room here. They have an extra second. They have an extra third. They've got some money to throw around in free agency.

I think it's a matter of what the vision is from George Payton and what that new coaching staff is going to look like. Right. And it seems like they've got the right GM in place. He's made some pretty good moves. It's a little bit more difficult when you talk about patching your team through free agency. I know that gets dicey and finding which guys to spend the money on and also which guys are going to stay productive and also fit spots on your team because we see really good players with one team get paid, go to another team. And as much as fans might want to say, oh, you shut it down. or didn't care as much.

Sometimes it's just not a scheme fit. You know, if you've got a guy who's been dominant in Kyle Shanahan's offense and now he has to go to Baltimore and it's a much different offensive scheme and it's a totally different run scheme, you know, maybe that guy isn't going to be quite as dominant as he was in the other blocking scheme. So that is a real thing and being able to find those guys in free agency to plug the holes along with using the draft capital, you know, using your resources. But at the end of the day, they've got to find the quarterback, man.

It comes back to that. At a certain point, like, that's all the matters, right? Just find the quarterback. I mean, that's what's going to be all of the intrigue there this offseason. And, you know, I'm sure they had this vision of Aaron Rogers for the last year or so. And it just feels more and more with every passing day that he's going to be backing Green Bay. Is he tall enough for Elway, though? It's a good point.

It's a good point. He's only like 6'1. He's not like a physically impressive person when you see him. There's got to be, someone's got to have a chart of. I even think about that with the Russell, Wilson question. Like there's no way. There's no way Russell Wilson could ever play in Denver. Right, because at least Rogers can absolutely zip the ball. I mean, we know Russell has pretty good velocity. I'd say his hallmark is that high, floaty, long ball. With Rogers, like I said,

there's got to be some sort of inverse scale of arm strength to height where Rogers might not have the height, but he's got the arm strength to make up for it. Where Russ, he doesn't have the height and he also doesn't necessarily have that like pure fastball down the middle that we associate with Rogers. So I think Rogers might eke it out on the L-Way scale. I don't know if Russell Wilson's getting there. God, it's incredible. I mean, if John Elway and the Broncos are faced with two options, and it's trade for Russell Wilson or convince Ben Rathesberger to keep playing,

it's probably going to end up being Ben Rathesberger, right? Just based on their history. Here's the better question. Who do you think Elway drools over more? Josh Allen or Justin Herbert? Oh, it's definitely Herbert. You think? It's definitely Herbert.

I just feel like the pure... I don't know. That's a good question. I know Herbert kind of looks... Right, exactly. So I know Herbert can move, but the fluidness and what we've seen of Alan and his running ability, like Elway, people don't remember how freaking good of an athlete he was and how much he ran the ball and how much that was a part of his game.

And I know, I'm sure he felt like he was the man in terms of being able to run the ball as well. I would imagine he almost sees more of himself and Alan and that running ability and he sees himself in the throwing ability of Herbert in terms of like the statuesque guy and the, pocket and how pretty it looks. So, yeah, I'd be interested in figuring out which one of those two guys is higher up on his list. The Broncos picked 15th in the 2020 draft. I was wondering how far away they were from potentially, like, getting into the top

center picking a quarterback that year. They would have had to make some real moves to go get Justin Herbert, but that would have been a match made in heaven. Can you imagine a quarterback that big with actual physical ability that can move around a little bit? It would have been John always dream. All right. Last one here, Eric Griffith asks.

Love the show. I've been listening to you since your first podcast on Grant with Eiff from Salam, which I loved as an Atlanta resident. It's a long, long time ago. It's 10 years ago now. I'm wondering how you and Mitch distinguish between bad offensive line men and bad offensive line coaching. Specifically thinking about the dolphins.

I love this question, by the way. Most of their players who are underperforming were highly regarded college prospects and no one was panning these picks. What's more likely that they were all mis-evaluated or their coaching is poor? The fact that Andrew Thomas improved so much after Mark Columbus firing last year has convinced me of the importance of offensive line coaching. So when you're watching and you're trying to extricate a player performance or a player's development from the way he's being coached along the offensive line, how do you even start

going about doing that? That's a really good question. It's also tough to do because there's so many moving parts. You know, one of the things I learned in my career is try not to copy Lane Johnson and Ramcheck and Joe Thomas. Like, I need to find what works for me, what works for my boss? body and then really solidify that as my base strategy. So when you're looking at individual guys, like, well, this guy blocks this certain way

and he's coming from college, there's only so far that can change. And so if you've got five really different styles, when you're looking at it, it's like, huh, all these guys are doing things differently. Maybe there's not much coaching there. And it's hard to figure out, like, where the coaching starts and where the guy's personal preference ends. And that's where it gets difficult. But I'd say on the whole, if you're watching an offensive line, you know, especially

with the one that stands out to me is the Bill Callahan Dallas Cowboys. You know, all those guys were using the same Gallup technique. They all had the same, you know, the right tackle and left tackle have the same pass sets. The interior three all set the same, you know, stances and their hands and the timing of everything. So I think looking for cohesiveness and continuity in terms of what techniques you're seeing, if that's the case, I would say your O-line coach is pretty good because he's able to identify a technique that works for everybody. He's able to get those guys to buy into it. He's able to teach it and coach it well enough that they grasp it in practice and then put it into play in a game.

And so, like I said, those Callahan Cowboys are kind of the grade A of seeing coaching manifest on the field and seeing that in an offense alignment. And so that's one where you can say, okay, those guys are well coached. Now it takes, you know, we talked about having three Hall of Famers and being able to utilize those as well. But I'd say like for the dolphins, you know, it's a little bit of misalveillance. miscoaching. And when you're seeing five guys who don't have the same techniques, you know, you're probably thinking, okay, well, maybe the coaching isn't sticking and maybe it's not working quite as well, especially over a multi-year period. It's just, it's a really good question. I feel like this is an answer we could go on for, you know, a day or two talking about

offense alignment and figuring out how they're playing and whether they're buying into technique and not and coaching and all that. But I'd say on the whole, if you're looking at an offense a line, good or bad, trying to see if guys are doing things similarly, if the two tackles are taking similar sets, if the inside three are using the same techniques and the same footwork and all that, you know, the flip side of that is you go back and you watch the Packers from, you know, 10 years ago and maybe T.J. Lang is jumpsetting everybody and sitting a little bit more back because he's bigger and you wouldn't necessarily say, oh, that's crappy coaching. It's just T.J. Lang is a great jumpsetter and he trusted that and he went with that.

but I think you could still discern on the whole that those were well-coached offense-al-line units. So having a little bit of a critical thinking eye on top of that is helpful. But, yeah, trying to look for things that look similar on both sides of the ball and in different positions and seeing if guys improve or not and if they're not improving for, you know, multi-year period, it probably is the coaching. I mean, there's only so much you can blame, you know, for scheme, for offense alignment and for bad situation. When you are looking at their offense and just the sheer amount of RPO's and just how different it is compared to, let's say, a more conventional NFL offense, do you feel like the way they play is a potential detriment to the development of offensive linemen? Yes and no.

I mean, you'd like to think it's an easier offense to be part of because, you know what's awesome is being the backside tackle on an RPO. you just pass it and literally get in the way. You can't really do anything wrong. So you get all these kind of plays off. You get to restore your energy. You don't have to be thrown on these high leverage, high stress situations of pass blocking. They're doing a lot of quicker passes and play action stuff.

You know, it's not too of getting the ball on shotgun and taking a five-step drop and being at 10 yards and holding on the ball for a while. He's a guy that is pretty quick with his reeds when he's on and wants to get the ball out. And honestly, can't really drive the ball downfield too far anyway. So it's not like we're seeing. other quarterbacks and the true dropback game.

So you'd think they're actually in a scheme that's beneficial to their development and gives them easier plays and makes things a little easier play to play than a different offense. So that's part of the equation that makes you say, maybe there's something else going on. Maybe it's just that we've drafted all the wrong guys for four straight years or maybe they haven't been coached quite as well. But I think labeling an offense is bad for development. I think that's where it gets a little bit tough because for the most part, you're still doing the same blocks.

You're still executing a double team on the front side of a zone, a double team on the backside, a man block on this play, a one-on-one pass out on that play. So I don't think developmental-wise, the structure of the offense should affect it too much. All right. Guys, that's all we got for this week.

Sincerely appreciate all of you sending along your questions. We will continue this in the playoffs when we get into the playoffs. We have one more week of the regular season. We'll be here every single Tuesday until the Super Bowl. I hope, right? You'll be here. I'll be here. All right, guys.

Thank you. Please rate interview the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. It sincerely appreciate that. Please subscribe to The Athletic, Theathletic.com slash football show. We will be back tomorrow. We're doing all pro shows, multiple shows. We're going to have two shows tomorrow, one offense, one defense. Brandon Thorne is going to come on and chat about the offensive linemen and defensive

linemen. Nate is going to do skill position players on offense. And Matt Bowen from ESPN is going to come on and chat about the DBs and the linebackers. Please come, check both of those out tomorrow. Really excited about those shows. Until then, appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was The Athletic Football Show.