The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Mailbag: Best QB arms, college vs. NFL coaching, current Hall of Fame trajectories, rookie transitioning & more with Nate Tice

Episode Date: December 14, 2021

Nate Tice returns for the 2nd show in a row as we open the Athletic Football Show Mailbag. This week's it's full of questions regarding ranking some of the best QB arm talent in recent memory, who some Hall of Fame candidates are in today's NFL, making the transition from coaching in college to coaching in the League, what approach the Falcons should take this coming offseason and much more with Robert Mays! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. Today's Tuesday, December 14th. I'm Robert Mays. Mitchell Schwartz is traveling today. He will be back with us later in the season. Do not worry. But pinch hitting in his stead is our good friend.

Nate Tyson. How you doing, buddy? Doing great. I mean, it's twice and 12 hours, it feels like. We should just keep recording the whole time through. I mean, might as well as not even sleep on. Sunday nights into Monday morning. I'm keeping it.

I'm keeping it on, Kent. You get it, producer Ken, I'm just going to keep it on. You can edit it later. That's it. We'll just have one 24 hour, a little file that we send you. You had some French silk pie last night after the show, huh? How was that? I love a good French soak pie.

It's my favorite, my absolute favorite pie. I was such a picky eater as a kid. And then my mom, you know, so like apple pie. I like apple pie now. That's the opposite of me. I ate my, my dad used to say I would eat anything not moving faster than me. That's, oh, I know my entire family now don't, don't. I eat everything.

But that was the thing is when I was in high school, there's a couple schools that recruited me as a tight end. And everyone, I was out 195 pounds, six four, just real thin. Oh, I know. And everyone was like, really tight end? And then they looked at my dad and they're like, he'll put on weight. He'll get there. And then sure enough, when college, when you're broken college and starving, you start eating,

eating everything you can. So yeah, that weight came on quick. I was 225. senior year like 22. My junior though, it was 2.45. So I was much bigger than you in high school, despite being six inches shorter than you. Yeah. My first varsity experience, James Lernerner

and I tore me in half. I was 160 pounds as a sophomore. And he, uh, he absolutely teabone me. And I, uh, like, that's the last thing I remember is going up in the air with James Lerner and ice on top of me. So yeah, uh, I, that's why I learned, oh, maybe I should start lifting weights. Or play quarterback. Or play quarterback. Yeah, exactly. All right.

As we always do on Monday into Tuesday, we're doing the mailbag today. I really appreciate you guys sending in the questions. A lot of fun ones today. We have a nice breezy energy with this guy as we get a little bit later into the season. So, Kent, why don't you cue up the first voice mouth for us? Hi, Robert. Nate, yesterday on the show, we talked about the problems with the Panthers and the Jaguars. And, of course, Urban Meyer and Matt Ruhl, both came straight from coaching college to

and NFL head coaching jobs. So I was curious. I looked up others who've done that in the last, say, 20 years. Cliff Kingsbury, of course, Phil O'Brien, Chip Kelly, Doug Marone, Greg Shiano, Jim Harbaugh, Bobby Petrino, Nick Savan, Steve Spurrier, Hitch Davis. And I guess my question is, you know, what are your thoughts on the pros and cons of somebody making that move? Anyway, thanks a lot. Andy Taylor, Pax tank, PA. Bye, bye.

It's a great question from Andy. It being 1 a.m. is probably why I didn't mention it last night, because it is a connection point between those two guys. And I wanted to ask you this, because you obviously played in college. You've been around college coaches. You've been around NFL coaches for a very long time. Do you think that there's a difference in this skill set?

And do you feel like there is something inherent to what makes a college coach successful that doesn't necessarily make a pro coach successful, or do you feel like this is anecdotal? I thought you'd have a good sense of it. Yeah, I've never been a real fan from a guy going from college to the NFL. It really, the alarm bell for me is if they have zero NFL experience. Why is that?

What aspect of it? I mean, just the whole process of coaching an NFL professional. Like, it's a lot different. It really is. In college, it's my way or the highway. And you can do that with a lot of guys. I mean, they joke about de-recruiting guys because they just, bra, bra, bra, blah, blah, and you control their lives. You really do.

You got school. You just, you can always hang something over a guy. And the NFL, a player can just come in and go, no. Like, I got a seven-year deal. I know I'm the franchise guy. Like, it's a lot more that leading of, leading of men, leading of adults that needs to happen. Not that college coaches don't do that. There's a plenty of dozens of coaches I've been around that have just been, they have that.

And they maybe prefer the college lifestyle. But I would say recruiting is 1A, 1B, 1C in college. It really is. It's just you live and die by recruiting. And then it's, you know, hiring good assistance on top of that. I think in the NFL, those guys that jump to it, also they just go, oh, okay, free agency is totally different. We joked about with Urban Meyer last night having no idea how free agency worked, like, and just how the whole process with, hey, it's highest bidder. That's, that's it.

That's it. And on top of that, it's also like, you know, the draft process and just maybe finding what team fits are and understanding what it is. Like being an NFL player, I don't know we're talking about the coaches, but being an NFL player, it's, you know, it's a grind. It's, you know, it's a different mindset that you have to look for. And maybe some of these college guys go, well, this guy's fast. And it's like, yeah, but the NFL, you got to find different skill sets that work in

the NFL, like translatable skills. The, I would say the upside for it, like if I'm, I wouldn't say being devil's advocate, but the upside is they bring in new ideas to the NFL. The NFL can be very stagnant with your ideas. Kelly is the best example of that, right? That's exactly it. And I mean, I would say he was ahead of the curve because it was going to go that way anyways, but he kind of like forced it.

Like it was like maybe five years before it was ready to hit the NFL. So maybe it matriculated a little quicker because of him. That's the one, a really good example. And Chip Kelly did find the NFL when he was in the Eagles. That's the thing. It's like he was winning a lot of games. Jim Harbaugh too. And I thought that they brought a lot of interesting schematic quirks, just a lot of the run game stuff that they were doing.

Yes. It seemed like there were a couple of good examples. I mean, those guys had shelf lives. You know, obviously when that approach got a little bit stale, they failed to pivot in any considerable way. And I think that that's why their NFL careers pivoted or excuse me, why they fizzled to a certain extent. Do you feel like there's anything to that organizational leader of, not leader, leader of men, such bullshit.

I know. I try to avoid saying that phrase. But I think just the overall CEO approach, right? Like when people wanted Matt Cameron. And Matt Campbell being like this guy who's done such a good job at Iowa State and him being a hot name in NFL circles, where it's not necessarily this schematic approach or this wizardry on one side of the ball, even though I know Iowa State's defense is doing a lot of interesting things. But it was this program builder idea. Maybe that's the better term for it. Do you think there's anything to that where if you're looking at, all right, this is how you reset what an organization looks like?

This is how you build something from the ground up because that's what Matt Rule was sold as. Do you think there's anything to that? Not really. Because usually they got a lot of reasons to hire these guys then. It's just got to have a little more substance to them. Like, you know, like Campbell might be a decent example, like you said with the defense, but then you have to decipher. Is that because of a defense coordinator you hired or is that because of his vision?

And also in college, it's you get these recruiting classes. You get your three or four years to build these recruiting classes. Do, do, do. And if, oh, it's when we talked about a million times, it's ability to pivot. It's ability to just like have different answers for different things. is not just in a game plan sense, but as a franchise sense. It's going like, well, if we do this, hey, well, this guy's going to be free. It's just having that kind of midterm plan with short term and long term planning.

I think NFL, you just have to always be on your game. And also the difference, too, is in college, you're the dictator. Like, yeah, you have to answer to boosters and a little bit the athletic director, but really you get full say and full control. NFL, it's a people, it's a people's business. It really is. It's a person business because you have to deal with the GM, execs. your assistant coaches might not be the guys you wanted because maybe the GM wants his, you know,

defensive coordinator. Like the owner, you always got to remember the owner. It all starts at the top too. So it's a different dynamics that exist in the NFL. So it's like it's just such a different skill set needed for these guys. And it's hard because it is case by case. But I think the one thing is I, if I'm going to hire a guy that has college like from the college ranks, it's like I want to see maybe two, three, four years of NFL experience.

I know that's hard like to find. like to find that kind of perfect guy, but that's really, it is needed because it's a, it's a bucket of cold water on some of these guys once they get to the NFL. And I do think that there's a consistency aspect to this, right? I mean, Urban Meyer said it. I mean, we heard that early in the season when he told somebody it's like you're playing Alabama every single week. And it is. There are no shortcuts in the NFL. There's no, I'm going to get the best guys for two years early on as a recruiter and then my team will be good. You have to put it in every day. And I feel like that's kind of what we're seeing with the Panthers, right? Where they want.

want to kind of pivot away from these things and take the short corner to where they want to go. It's like, that's not how this works. If you are disappointed with a guy, there aren't 120 guys standing on the sideline where you have this entire group of pool, you have this entire pool of players that you can pick from. Like, you have to put in the work slowly, methodically. This does not happen overnight. And I think that that's what we've seen a little bit with a couple of these cases. Well, and I think also it's like in college, how many blowouts happened early in the year?

hanging out. And an NFL, it's like, look at Sunday. I mean, how many times teams just came back? It's such a rubber band effect in this league. It's not just parody. Oh, every team's finishing around 500. It's every week is like you just said, it's a paddle. It's a, it's every, like every, it's so hard to wake up in December on a Tuesday at

4.30 in the morning and go, okay, I'm putting together third down today. And then like, you have to do that. Like in the college, it's just like, hey, we're going to run RPO on third down. Like, we just run our five plays. We're good. All right. What are we doing recruiting? How are we doing there?

Like, it's just a different, different lifestyle that exists with it. And right now they're in bull prep. NFL's still going. We still got four weeks to go. Like, it's, you know, before we even hit the playoffs, it's a different animal entirely. It's funny because Cliff Kingsbury has been successful relatively. Yeah. And he was the worst recruiter.

Of all the college coaches that have come to the NFL recently, it feels like he's been the guy with the lowest recruiting pedigree because it was all schematics. And it's almost like he was put in a better position because he went about the college game without the best players all the time. Yeah, he was just, yeah, he was playing on hard mode like just, well, he had Mahomes. Sure, yeah. But, you know, but, yes. But there is something to him, to him, like, his personality probably vibes with NFL more.

Because college is like I feel like it does. I feel like it absolutely does. Players probably, there's a reason all the vets went there. Like the James Connors and the JJ Watts because they're like, oh, shit, I get to kind of just hang out on a Wednesday and just walk through on a Wednesday and practice in shorts. This guy's not going to grind me to death. Like that matters too. Like I love Brett Beulma. We were full paths on Thursdays in the season. Like, you know, it's it was a totally different way. You can't do that. I mean, Belichick does. But again, that's his own. You got to earn that. That you got, exactly. You got to earn that. Yeah, you're not going to really tell Belichick to change his ways. And yeah, it works out pretty well. All right, let's get to our next one here. Hey, Rob, this is Matt from Raleigh. I just had a question about the Falcons. You know, right now we're kind of in no-man's land.

You know, I do think Arthur's been a good job of coaching this team up. I think, you know, there's some good things offensively going on. But what do you think Atlanta should do as far as the short-term future? I don't really see a point of keeping Matt Ryan. just to keep him. He's an aging quarterback. I don't think we'll be able to resign for Gerald Patterson. I think he's going to be worth too much money in the off season.

Where do you think the Falcons should go in the off season as far as trade and see in the draft? I love to hear what you have to say. Thanks. Bye. I wanted to answer this question, and I appreciate it, because we haven't really talked about the Falcons very much. They're a team that they're winning enough games. Even though I did with Lindsay last week, we were talking about which team with four or or wins, would you rather be? The Falcons weren't in that group because they have somehow

stumbled into enough wins this year. But in all actuality, they're absolutely one of those full-scale rebuilding teams. I mean, they have a few players on really expensive contracts. But other than that, and this roster needs a ton of retooling. So I wanted to ask you, if you're looking at this Falcons team, what do you think their six-month plan should look like as they enter this offseason? I bet you they wish they could rewind six months to maybe take a quarterback in this last draft. But it's, it's funny, though, how things shift at that Cordero Patterson is we can't, I don't think we can resign Cordero Patterson. Like, that's like, he's become like a key cog for like their franchise right now. But that that kind of speaks to where they're at that Cordero Patterson's your guy. I mean,

credit to CP, like he's had an awesome year and everything, but they're utilizing them in a great way. I mean, this team is, you know, what I said before then when I bet against them or a couple weeks ago is the 30 second in DVOA. It was worse than the other teams, Jags, Jets, all. Texans. It's they're put together. I mean, the pieces are AJ Terrell, Grady Jarrett, Chris Lindstrom, Kyle Pitts, Jake Matthews and Calvin Ridley, maybe. I think that's exactly how to look at this where it's, it's not, it's not what do we need. It's what do we have. And then we need everything else because I thought that coming into this year. You know, the way that I, the feeling that I had about their situation coming into the season,

based on just the vibe there and just little conversations with people there. It felt like they were really trying to depress expectations. It's like we are, post-Hulio trade, it's like, we are not going to be very good. We don't have a lot of talent. We need to understand that. You could name three players on their defense coming into the season. It was great Jared, AJ Terrell, and Dion Jones in terms of pieces maybe you could build around. I know Dante Fowler is there or whatever else.

That's still how it feels right now, right? AJ Terrell looks like a superstar. He looks like one of the best corners in the NFL at this stage. That is a huge win. Kyle Pitts is going to be a really nice piece. We'll see what happens with Calvin Ridley. Obviously, it's such a unique situation. There's really no way to understand it.

But when we've seen him play, he's a fantastic player. Yes. So if he comes back and, you know, I wish him all the best, if he comes back and he's feeling good next year, and you have a Calvin Ridley and a Kyle Pitts and a couple guys on the offensive line, and then on the defensive side, you have AJ Terrell, you have Grady Jarrett, and think you kind of start over.

I mean, it feels like it's going to be a tough situation with the Matt Ryan contract, because even if they trade him, they're still on the hook for $40 million in dead money. Yeah. What happened near the end was always going to put them in a really bad spot. They were trying to squeeze every drop they could out of this thing, and eventually the bill comes due, and that's exactly what's going to happen. So this is a multi-year sort of rebuild, and that's why I just think, that they should try to get as young as they can.

And who do you retain? I think it's only a few guys that are going to be part of this team moving forward. That was part of the exercise we did with Lindsay the other day. It's like, all right, who are the guys? Like, if you're stacking up the guys that are going to be on this team three years from now, who are those guys? And for the Falcons, I think the ones that are guarantees is a very short list. The unfortunate part of this is that when you look at their needs, it's a real tough

situation that they invested so much in the offensive line recently and the offensive line is objectively bad. That's that's that's rough. When you spend a first round pick on Caleb McGarry, when you drafted Jalen Mayfield this year and he looks not very good. That's the issue, right? When you're looking at, we were talking about the Cowboys last night, you know, you're drafted at Tyler Bytis in the fourth round, Connor Williams, Connor McGovern, functional players. And the Falcons with all of those swings have not built a functional offensive line. So even the guys that should be building blocks for you don't look like building blocks. And that's put them in a really rough situation.

And it were premium swings too. Like it wasn't like, like you said with those Cowboys guys, those are middle round picks, which is why it's even better that you can get a starter out of it. But it's like when you miss on a first round lineman, because you have to play them. You're not going to take a lineman in the first round and go, and we'll put them on the bench. It's not quarterback. You know, it's not, you know, a corner or, you know, other positions. It's like, no, we have to play this guy.

So that's what it kind of, you know, it's a sunk cost. but it's also like, you know, you double down on the negativity there. And that's the thing is like, Winston is a good player. Like he's really come along. And so it's like really, but that's it. It's Terrell, Lindstrom, Pitts, maybe Calvin Ridley, and then whatever you want to do with Grady Jarrett.

And that's really it. And but that's why that just tells you. It's like, nuke it. I mean, that should tell you exactly lead you right to your answer. And that's what I mean, we talked. It was one of our big conversations in the off season. We're like, maybe they should kind of lean quarterback and maybe, you know, start building to the future.

and they kind of kicked the can down the road. Like you said, the bill became due. And as opposed to what the saints have done, the saints nailed a couple drafts in a row, which helped them. But it's like, you know, they're, I don't know,

saints live in a la la land with the salary cat. But it's also, it's like, even they're in a weird spot now because their quarterback thing is, now what do you do? And with the Falcons next year, I think it's really easy to look at Matt Ryan at age 37. And with the way his arm looks right now,

just like, I mean, they're going to move on. What are they going to do? But you look at it, they only save $8 million by trading him. And his base salary is only $16 million. So typically with some of these monster-based salaries for quarterbacks, if you can trade them, it's the cash that you're going to save. They don't even save that much cash by trading him next year.

And what are you going to do? If you trade him and you still need a veteran quarterback, you're going to have to pay a veteran quarterback. So even if you're getting a $10 million guy, Even if you're shopping in the Andy Dalton, Ryan Fitzpatrick Isle from this year, that's still $10 million. Starting quarterbacks don't come cheap. So it almost feels like there's a world where Matt Ryan might be the starter here next year because there's not much that, there's not that much relief from moving on from him. Then in 2023, you absolutely can, right?

I mean, in 2023, you can just cut him. It's a $15 million dead cap hit. You save $28 million. And in 2023, everyone's hitting free agency. Grady Gerr is hitting free agency, McGarry, Calvin Ridley. But you got $130 million in Capspace, $140 million. You got a blank slate of a team. So I feel like this is a lot more about the next two off seasons than it is about this spring.

Because the hole that they dug themselves is a deep, deep hole. Two years in NFL terms is, that's an eternity. Like that is, that is like, that's usually it's like, okay, one year we grit her teeth and try and, you know, get through. it, but it's like, knowing that and going, oh, man, it's just like, but that's the thing. It's just, they had an out. They had an out. Like, that's what I thought they did. Like this spring, they did.

And I, this is, yeah, like you said, it's the whole they dug themselves in. It's just more frustrating about it. But it's like, I mean, what do you tell the coaches now? It's like, all right, well, this is what we have. Like, you're shopping with discounts. Like, and also, like, now if, say they do decide, like, they want to go with a young quarterback to groom behind Matt Ryan. Now you have to.

hit it. You know, this is your swing. And this is not a class you want to do that in. And the guy might be taken that where they're picking at because now they're at 500 or near 500 right now. So it's like, uh, it's just, it's just a lot of, a lot of speed bumps to get over to, to put themselves on a path. Yeah. And that's why I think it's a two year process. And there just aren't that many teams we can say that about, but that's the financial reality for where they found themselves. All right. This is a fun one. I feel like we've talked about, we've talked around this for the entire start of the season. Let's really dig into it here.

Alex Porter says, feels like every week Justin Herbert makes an absolutely mind-boggling throw. He sent this last week, by the way, before the throw from yesterday. Just for context. But it was he sent it to you and me, so I wanted to wait until you were on the show. Perfect. So leading us to talk about how rare that level of arm talent is. But exactly how rare is it?

I know you're a big rankings guy, so here's the question. Am I a big rankings guy? I guess I'm my big rankings guy. Yeah. here's the question. Where does Herbert rank among the best armed talents of the last 20 years? Specifically going back that far so Nate can include Culpeper if he wants. Off the top of my head, the best armed talents are in no particular order.

Herbert, Josh Allen, Matthew Stafford, Jay Cutler, Brett Farve, Patrick Mahomes, Dante Colpepper, Aaron Rogers. But feel free to add anyone that I've overlooked. Happy ranking. So I did a story about this on The Athletic last year. And I did have the past 30 years because that's one, my level. lifetime more or less since I started watching football and two it's hard to find highlights going back further than that there's a lot of john elway stuff from early in his career on youtube it's

harder to find and so that's why i limited to that stretch i said mahomes i mean that that's where i ended up and it's because i think arm town arm strength are different things i'm curious if you were stacking yours up what would it look like number one of all the guys is jeff george and And that's, it's a tail end of his career in 20 years. I looked it up. He didn't retire until the mid-2000, the mid-a-auts. So he counts. But Jeff George has the craziest arm talent I've ever seen.

And I got to have one year with him when I was a kid. And, but just even rewatching some of the stuff from 1999 when they bench Randall Cunningham. That is the most ridiculous arm ever. Like, and that's, and then everyone else is catching up to that. But I would go number two as my homes. And then I, and then it gets fun. Uh, like, I have Allen in there. I got Josh Allen.

I got Favre, Stafford, Rogers. I would say Rogers above actually above, you know, Stafford and Farr. I think Rogers is arm-tout. Farv had arm strength. So that's the, that is the differentiation to me, right? That's tough. So Jeff George had the strongest arm.

All right? But he could do some crazy things. So to me, it's, I think creativity is part of it. I think how you can layer throws is part of it. I think arm angles is part of it. So all of that stuff I take into account. And that's always why Rogers, to me was number one.

Farve had a stronger arm than Rogers, but some of the things that Rogers can do slightly on the move, the way that he can layer certain throws the different levels of the field, some of the things that he could get off was just absolutely insane. What Aaron Rogers could do with the football to me

was unlike any other passer I had ever seen until Mahomes. And then Mahomes comes along and just some of the things that Mahomes can do, the whip-like motion that he creates with his arm. And with being able to create that strength and that velocity with his arm alone, Rogers has, to me, the best torque of any quarterback that I've ever seen. His ability to kind of put his cleats in the ground or have one foot on the ground and use that front foot as like a kickstand to create torque in his upper body.

I've never seen anything like that in my entire life. The crow hop. As soon as you saw far, give that little crow hop, it was like, oh, here comes a missile. And all that stuff is amazing. And I think Mahomes, the creativity and the stuff that he can do. In terms of just like that guy is not from this planet armwise, Herbert's going to, he's in the conversation. I mean, just the pure explosiveness.

Like the way the ball jumps out of Herbert's hand to me is right there with any of these guys. I mean, I think that the explosive nature of the way that he throws the ball is probably more impressive than any of these guys. It's, God, I know. That's why it's so because he'll throw 35 yard dig routes, not 35 yard diggerouts, but benders and stuff like that. And that thing doesn't move off the screen. Even the Josh Palmer touchdown yesterday. It looks so casual. And when you see it, it's just like, all right, like that's not that impressive.

But then you think about the mechanics of it. That's a 15 yard deep out to the other side of the field where he's throwing it from the hash to the pylon. and it's a laser beam. The RPO last week, the against the Bengals. Yes. Remember he he's thrown a glance RPO and actually it was a post RPO. It glances, yeah, it was four step, fourth outside step by the receiver. And he threw it like a slant.

And that that is exactly. Yeah, you're exactly right. It's. So I think he's fourth then for me because it'll be because I would say I would have Rogers just a hair above him then. But he's in that category. He's in that tier one category. You know what's the other one?

that I started thinking about more is Vic. Oh, yeah. I think, you know what's funny? In a way, Vic and Herbert are kind of similar to me. Because it's the way the ball explodes out of their hand. That's,

I mean, the giddy up that the ball has coming out of their hands. It looks like, you know, when you really, when you really, really hit a drive on the screws and it has that,

like, second hop after you hit it. That's what it looks like when Michael Vic and Justin Herbert throw a football where it looks like it's rising, even though they threw it 60, yards. And to me, the strength that Rogers has, and you and I have talked about this, Jordy Nelson told me this once, and it makes total sense. I was talking about just the partnership

they had. And Jordy was telling me that Rogers' throws weren't hard to catch because as the ball is coming at you, it doesn't dip. The nose of the ball never changes planes. So you just put your hands straight up and the trajectory of the ball is coming at you on a straight line. That's arm strength, where you can throw a ball through a wall. And that's the That's what Aaron Rogers can do. But with Herbert, it's just this kind of spectacular explosion that the ball has. So there are different types of arm strength. But in terms of like just it being a visual spectacle, I think that Herbert is in this

conversation with anybody. I agree. I agree. But no, I mean, oh, God, it's so much. I love talking about this stuff because that was, we've talked about them before. Yeah, the exact conversation we've had was I remember reading a baseball article where they're talking about do fastballs rise. And they say, no, they don't.

They don't, but it's just an optical illusion on your eye that, no, it's actually dipping, but it dips less than your eye thinks that it does. Yes. And same thing with these guys. They throw through it. They throw that ball like you're just saying. It just never dips. So that's why it's so easy to catch.

Jimmy Hay, the assistant equipment guy with the Falcons, that's what he say. You said, Vic was the easiest guy to catch. He said it was easier to Matt Ryan sometimes, even though he was rocketing it. We've seen, remember the old commercials when guys are getting blown back and the, you know, the joke commercials with Vic's arm. But it was like, that's what he goes, it was like a pillow when you caught it because it was just, he threw through you. And Herbert has the same thing. When you see him rocking a digger out, rocket a slant in there.

And those guys are catching it. It just sticks to those hands. Like Aaron Rogers, the drops were always low with him, even though he plays in Green Bay in the freezing cold. Like it was like, different receivers. It didn't matter. It's because, yeah, there's something to that throwing through a guy. And Farrd was the arm strength where it was just like he stuck it on you. You had to catch it.

It was like he like ingrained you into the into the pads. This is one of my favorite things. But this is also the thing too is cold. I'm glad he brought up coal pepper. That's the difference between arm strength throwing through a wall. Because Dante, I would say it was good in that way. But Dante threw the beautiful deep ball. So it's the two different types of arm strains.

And that's what Dante was different with. I wouldn't say he had thought he wasn't real creative with the stuff. He could throw on the move really well. But he was just the beautiful, beautiful deep thrower. One of the best ever, really. I think I think I tweeted it out. And that's exactly right. His D ball is absolutely beautiful, but that's a different sort of arm strength.

Correct. I'm going to try to find it. I think it's on my Twitter. I asked Rogers once what I thought was, what he thought was the hardest he ever threw a football. And it was against the Falcons in the playoffs in 2000. Not me not the playoffs. It was against the Falcons in 2010. And he told me about it.

And Jory L. Wilson always mentioned it. It was in the back of the end zone. And it's that thing where he gets like a running start. And then he uses one foot. as a kickstand. And so he does this incredible thing where he stops all of his momentum and is able to kind of create torque in his upper body.

So the mechanics look right. But it's just, think about it. Think about when you're in a car crash, right? Yeah. When things stop, you create this forward momentum with yourself. And that's exactly what it was. It's inertia that he had. And it was incredible to watch.

I mean, the ball is traveling like 80 miles an hour. It's absolutely insane. So there are just throws like that where it's like, God, these guys are just doing a different thing than everybody else is. Exactly. All right. Let's get to our next voicemail. Yes, my name is Derek.

I'm from Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, big fan of the show, big fan of yours, Roberts. I wanted to call this question. I was waiting for Nate to come in because, like Nate, I'm a huge old school wrestling fan, and I know Nate's a big fan of OSW review. So Nate will get this question.

So who would be, if you could pick players, who would be in your voice stable for NFL players? If you can pick four or five, Basically, a guy that you liked that necessarily wasn't the best. They could probably explain it better. But maybe Robert, someone like Charlie Whitehurst, when you and Barwell, pretty much kind of had a love affair with him back of the Grantland days. Hopefully the question gets on and keep up the great work, guys.

All right. You're going to have to explain this to me. Okay. So, yeah, OSW review is an awesome YouTube podcast, and they just review old wrestling pay-per-views. And it's amazing because they just, it's actually one of the reasons I got back into wrestling as I started watching those stuff. videos, but they have a boys table where it's, it's basically your favorite wrestler that wasn't like a world champ. Like, who's your boy?

Kind of like a schlocky pick, you know, like, so like for me in wrestling, it would be like gold dust, like Billy Kidman. Oh, gold dust. Yeah. Yeah. Saturn. You know, guys that weren't, it was, it's not the, you know, the rocks or stone cold Steve Austin.

It's the middle. Scott Hall, like those guys, like that, there's kind of mid-tier, upper mid-tier guys. And it's always, and so OSTB your review, this is how popular it is, is that some of their fans have gotten tattoos. with the show. And I'm not asking anyone to get that with the other show. But is that and then they get to pick their boys table and they do it on one of the shows. So so like so I think for football wise it'd be like your favorite non pro bowl players.

I think that would be a good way to like that's like a good record. Non pro bowl players is tough. I know. That's why the boys table is fun. Like so for like currently, Nahim Hines like that. Oh yeah. That's a really good one. That's a really good one.

That's a lot. Kendrick Bourne. Like, uh, like for all time. I have a whole bunch of Vikings. Like I have Nate Burleson, Moelde Moore, Jermaine Wiggins. Like those are boys, you know? It's only like a specific fan base like remembers those guys.

So you probably have some bears up there. Maybe some books. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I definitely do. I mean, I'm trying to think of like the guys that of my, since I started watching football that are like some of my favorites. Like Michael Bennett is probably too good.

But like I loved Michael Bennett. Like when he was on the bucks, I loved Michael Bennett. Like before he even signed with. the Seahawks. He was one of my guys. Remember Chris Myers, the center for the Texans? I always loved Chris Myers.

I just thought that, and when you saw Chris Myers, he was like a 280 pound dude who played center in the NFL in this hyper-specific way. And I always really liked him for that exact reason. It's like, man, what a strange guy. That's exactly it. It's kind of like the guys you like that aren't like the prototypical guys. It's like, no, that's my guy. Like, like, Zach Pascal. Like, that's another one.

Like, you know, like just the Colts have a lot of them. But Colts really do have a lot of them. Yeah. But it's Alec in gold. You know, like, you know, I was going to say CJ Ham. Like, CJ Ham is one of those guys for me. Yes, great example. CJ Ham's another one.

Yeah, but like those types. And, uh, yeah, but that's, I, when I saw that this question is going to be out of there, I lost my mind. I like even told my wife, I was like, my worlds are colliding right now. Like that's someone's refurb. referring to that three Irish guys that review old wrestling pay-per-views on the, on my, the podcast I'm on every week. I feel like mine are going to be too good.

Like, a guy's, like, Kenny Moore would be one of mine. Like, he might be too good, though. Like, that's the problem. That's a really tough needle to threat. Like, I just feel like I'd have to really, really think about it for guys that are, like, one step down from that range. It's, it's hilarious, too, on the show because they always argue whether that guy's too good.

Like, one of them was, like, Christian. you know, like Christian and Edge. And then they're like, no, no, he's too good to be in your. And he's like, no, I made up the rules for it. Like he's, and so that's always like the discussion, like a guy that's too good to be on there. But one of my guys this year is definitely Jalen Thompson. Jaywin Thompson is definitely on my list this year. Like I feel like he is kind of the epitome of that for this particular season.

But I'd have to really go back and think about it overall. I know. I know, but it's great to think about it. And I think that's the football equivalent as non-pro bowl player. So you're like all the super role players that we all love that we love to love to give shouts. I was trying to think of some linemen. And it was kind of, I was kind of disappointed in myself. I didn't come up with any alignment that because maybe I focus too much on the bad ones now.

All right. I'm going to, I'll do some more thinking about it. I'll do some more thinking about it. Great question. We'll see what we get. All right. Yeah. I really like this one.

Daniel Frazier asks, how differently would you feel about the bucks and paths if we swapped Mac Jones and Tom Brady on either team. Would this be the best Pat's team besides the 07 team? Would the Bucs make the playoffs? I love this. I thought this is a fascinating exercise. It's a very different offense in Tampa because Mac Jones and Tom Brady, even 44-year-old Tom Brady, has very different physical abilities. Right? So the vertical aspect of what the bucks are on offense, I think would be harder to pull off with Mack Jones. I agree. It definitely would not be the best Pat's offense since 2007. The two 2011 Patriots offense is one of the best offenses of all time.

I mean, that 2011 team gets lost because it didn't win the Super Bowl. And two, because the 2011 season is one of the most statistically productive seasons we've ever seen in NFL history. I mean, Drew Brees threw for 5,000 yards and didn't win the MVP that year for a playoff team because of how good Aaron Rogers was. That season is absolutely insane. But if you look at the stats offensively for that 2011 Patriots team, it's wild. So, I mean, this Pat's team, I think, would still be very, very good on offense, but I still think that their overall ceiling is limited just because of the explosiveness that they lack, right? So they'd be efficient. They'd be better with Tom Brady, but I don't know how much better they would be in terms of their overall ceiling.

Because, again, I just think you lack that vertical aspect of the offense. And the Bucks would just look so much different. They would look so much different with Matt Jones because the offense just has to change. Yeah. I mean, and Ariens wouldn't play a rookie. but it's like but I know this is a great question it was I had to think about it for a little bit but yeah I God I hate to sound like a broken record yeah I completely agree with you because that's the same same points that I put up there I said the 2011 Patriots team was sick

Gronk West Welker I mean God it was such a cool team Danny Woodhead was on there like when he was still like you know he was kicking around then but it was I think this Patriots team would be more like with Brady would be like more of those 2000 mid-200 2010 Patriots teams, whether, you know, like a good, good defense and an offense, like you said, it's efficient, more than explosive. You know, having Gronk also helps, too, in those mood 2010 teams. But, yeah, I really have nothing more to add on. I think this, I think that's exactly how I look at us, too. It's just Brady's arm strength is what makes the whole Bucks thing work.

You need to push the ball on that because they ask you out of it. You only can, you know, throw it underneath. Mack Jones is super accurate and would know where to go with the ball, but he would have some limitations on what is asking. variance offense. Yeah, I think that's it. I mean, I feel like they would all, they'd both still be really good. I think that obviously the Patriots office would be a little bit better.

I still think the Bucks' offense would be above average, significantly above average with Nick Jones. But they would have to do different things. All right. Let's get to our last voicemail here. Hey, Robert. Hey, Nate. Love the show.

One of my favorite things that you guys do is talk about Hall of Very Good, Hall of Fame. Last Mail bag with Mitch, you guys talk about, Whitworth and Peters and touch on a little bit on Cam Hayward as far as like, is he a Hall of Fame player, the Hall of Very Good. And this last week, Whitworth started left tackle at 40 years old. But another major player that was in the news was Cam Jordan and missing his first game in his entire career. And it made me think, you know, is Cam Jordan a Hall of Famer? And I'd really be interested in here you guys thoughts on like, is Cam Jordan a Hall of Famer?

Another couple ones that came to mind if you want to hit on is AJ. Green, a Hall of Famer. And then one, I constantly ask people all the time because I'm not sure. It's the Legion of Boom. Everyone says, Richard Servan, Hall of Famer, Bobby Wagner, Hall of Famer, the old Thomas Hall of Famer. But then I think about, is Cam Chancellor a Hall of Famer? Anyways, love the show, guys.

Hope to hear from you. Bye. All right. Let's start with Cam Jordan. Where are you at with Cam Jordan? A lock. You think he's a lock for the Hall of Fame? He's on the Hall of Team.

We're good. He's a lock. Lock. He's going to have 100 sacks. He missed the first game of his entire career. I think he's a lock. It might take a couple years, but he's a lock. He's an all decade team.

That's, that's, that's easy for me. Maybe I'm just a, a biased Cam Jordan fan, apparently. All right. So here's my stance about the all decade team. Okay. I, if the way the all decade team is comprised, I think the Cam Jordan deserves to be on. Okay. because the way they do this is nonsense.

There are six linebackers on the old decade team, and half of them are edge rushers. So the defensive ends on the all decade team are Calais Campbell, Cam Jordan, Julius Peppers, and JJ Watt. The fact that Julius Peppers is on it for the 2010s is insane, by the way. And Julius Peppers is ridiculous. So that means that Cam Jordan is on there, but all of the edge rushers that would be ahead of him in the edge rushing conversation,

are listed at linebackers. Is Cam Jordan one of the five best edge rushers of the last decade since he entered the NFL? No. But it's, but that's a thing. He's going to end up with 100 sacks and he has the accolades. And he's been on, he's only been all pro one time.

I know. How many pro bowlers did he have? Six, right? Okay. I think Cam Jordan is an awesome player. I think just penciling him in maybe a little bit, a little bit fast. I think he ends up getting in.

I really do. It's not going to be first ballot, no brainer, you know, like JJ will end up or something like that. But it's just going to be, I just think it's going to be one of those consistent careers that gets rewarded. And he just has enough accolades where it's like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. But it might be like year five that he finally gets, you know, gets enough votes. But I think it's, he gets in.

I think maybe I'm just biased to Cam Durk because I just love him as a dude, too. He's awesome. And I would love if Cam Jordan got into the Hall of Fame. But if you look at it from 2011 when he got drafted to 2021, I think that you could make an argument. Von Miller is definitely better at that position, right? Yes. Has Chandler Jones had a better career than Cam Jordan?

Chandler Jones had a better season, but not a better career, if that makes sense. I think that's a conversation. Chandler Jones has 105 sacks. He came in the league one year after Cam Jordan did. It is so hard in the year of our Lord 2021 to be underrated. Chandler Jones has managed it. He has somehow managed in the internet era to be underrated, which is almost impossible to do. But he still manages to do it.

JJ Watt, absolutely. Right? I mean, JJ Watt is an all-timer. Justin Houston? So that's where we get. That's the realm that we're getting in. Oh, man. that to me is the cut.

And then I think Colio Mack since he came into the league has been a more dominant player than Cam Jordan. And Columach's got two defensive player of the years. Maybe three now?

Colomack has 76 and a half sacks, but he came into the league three years after Cam Jordan came into the league. Yeah. But Colio got the accolades and yeah, and he's Calil Mac. He knows he's on that name basis.

But I just think, I think it's just one of those where Cam gets in just because of like the longevity kind of thing. I mean, and also just like he's been very good for very long. And I think that does end up being rewarded.

But like the Justin Houston's of the world, that's a fun one too. Man, now I'm like thinking. If you could have, if you could have nine years or eight years, there are eight year peaks of Cam Jordan or Cam Wake, who would you pick? Cam Jordan. Interesting. He's a badass man. I pick Cam Wake just because I love Cam Wake.

I just, I can't wait came into the league at 27. That's also just such a weird part of it. He had the weirdest career ever. I guess eight years, I'd say eight years maybe too much. Cam, Kim Wick had 10 and a half sacks at 35 years old. Yeah. Kim Wicks hit the Eggers Martinez of football, like just didn't have his breakout year or entered the league until 27 and just was like playing up until like he was late 30s

and producing. Cam Jordan is a fantastic player. I think he probably will end up getting in because he'll get 100 sacks and the all decade game thing does help. But I'm not as quick to say it's a lock as you are. Let's get to a couple of the other guys on here. Do you think AJ Green is a Hall of Famer? This one was tough.

I think he's the same category as Cam Jordan, where it's like he ends up a Hall of Famer, but it's going to take forever to happen. I mean, he has seven Pro Bowls. He has a couple second team all pros. He has a great peak. You know, he had a three, four-ish year period where he's, you know, top three receiver in the league. And then he's going to probably end up with 10,000 yards, which also is just, you know,

voters love those little parameters that they hit. So I think he ends up, but man, man, that one's tough. AJ Green was really tough for me to decide on. I say he ends up that, but there's going to be a lot of receivers soon. I think that's part of the problem is that the glut of receivers may hurt AJ Green. Yeah. Also, he's overshadowed in his own draft class. Like the fact that, and obviously, honestly, Cam Jordan has the same issue, right?

I mean, Von Miller, JJ Watt all came in the league the same year that Cam Jordan did. Julio Jones is walks into the hall. of Fame. And AJ Green's in the same class as Julio Jones. So I think that's a little bit of a complicating factor there. And then we're in an era where so many guys are going to have 10,000 yards, right? Yeah. I mean, Larry Fitzgerald had 9,200 yards in the 10 years since AJ Green came into the league.

So, I mean, Larry Fitzgerald is going to be in that conversation. I mean, there's a really good chance that Devante Adams gets there by the time that AJ Green would be eligible for the Hall of Fame. Devante is at 7,700 yards, 7,800 yards right now. I mean, there are a lot of guys. I think they're going to be right there that are going to kind of muddy that picture for AJ Green. Green needs like three more years, and that's hard of like the year he's having right now,

where he's just like a nice, tangible player for somebody, like a winning team, like because he just needs this second act of his career. Like it was like, he had a great first act. And then it was just like, okay, you got banged up. And then you kind of, you know, the Bengals kind of. were the Bengals for a few years. So it's like he needs his second act. But that's,

he's going to be the cutoff, man. Like, that's like he's going to be the barometer for like, is he better in AJ Green or is he worse than Asia Green for everybody that comes after, I think. It feels like DeAndre Hopkins is going to get in when it's all said and done. He's got 10,000 yards already. He came into like two years after these guys did.

Mike Evans is going to walk into the whole fame. Mike Evans has in, in only eight years, Mike Evans has 9,151 yards and 72 touchdowns. since 2011, Mike Evans is third among all players in touchdown catches behind Antonio Brown and Rob Grunkowski, even though he came into the league three years after some of these guys did. Wow. That's going to be a lot easier than it might even seem on the surface for Mike Evans to again.

He's going to be like a no doubt about it, Hall of Favor. Oh, yeah. And how old is he right now? Is he 30? Mike Evans isn't that old either. Like 29? He's 28. He's 28?

He's 28. Oh, my God. He's going to. Oh, my God. Jesus, he's going to, like, he's going to be up there. Like, and that's, that's, we talk about underrated in a way. It's not that we underrate Mike Evans. We know he's a star, but it's like, man, that's a, that's a hell of a career on teams that weren't really doing much else for a few years.

Mike Evans' is least productive season in the NFL was in 2017. When he played 15 games, he had 1,000 yards and five touchdowns. That's his least productive NFL season. Pretty good. He had 1,000 yards last year. That's a target number situation, right? And the Bucks team, he averaged 9.2 yards per target last season with the Bucks, even though he only had 1,000 yards.

If you look at it, here are the, here, this is the number of guys who average more than 9.2 yards per target since 2011. Tyree Kill, Jordie Nelson, Kenny Gallaudet, Chris Godwin, Tyler Lockett, Gronk, George Kittle, Julio Jones, Malcolm Floyd, which is amazing. to Sean Jackson, Debo, A.J. Brown, Johnny Knox, Jamar Chase and Justin Jefferson. Those guys are kind of fake because they don't have that many targets. And neither does Johnny Knox. But that's how productive Mike Evans was last year and it was one of the least voluminous years of his entire career. Mike Evans is having like a quietly insane football career. God. Even when you look out for era, what Mike Evans is doing is absolutely wild. And some of the teams he's had to play on and like the, it's just like he is scheme proof as they get. Like it's just like everybody loves that big ass ex receiver. They can just toss the ball up at any time that I love the chemistry he has with Brady.

It's just like one of most fun things. It's so cool to watch. Also, speaking of good dudes, I there, I have heard very few people talk about an NFL player the way that other people talk about Mike Evans. Like it is people revere Mike Evans. my only interaction with him was at the combine in the train station where they're doing interviews with the assistant coaches and this one assistant coach like took Mike Evans and went to like the little stairwell thing like that sounds really weird but he was just taking him to like private having his interview with him and it's supposed to be on the horn that no one else listens to. Scouts and coaches are going to know anyone that listens to this. It's just hilarious. But it's supposed to be 15 minutes and this coach had him for like an hour and he looked at me and this one that he still had braces.

And I remember he looked at me because I'm sitting there waiting. and grab him and he just goes, save me. And he's just like, that's all he said. Like, you know, I was just like, hey, okay, time off. And I came to that. And he's like, thank you so much. Like, because the coach was just talking his ear off, like, just talking and talking and talking.

I could tell him. He's like, are you going to ask me a question or you can talk about like your life? Like, but he was just like so funny and like so just like normal. Like, you know, and some of these players aren't like that. So it's, yeah, I'm a fan. I'm a fan of Mike Evans. All right. Very quickly, the Legion of Boom guys.

Bobby Wagner zero doubt. zeroed out. Richard Sherman to me is a Hall of Famer. I think that Richard Sherman is definitely going to get in. The Earl Thomas thing, that's going to be a complicated conversation, I feel like. Yeah, that's something else. Yes. So we don't have to talk about that.

I think Cam Chancer is firmly a whole very good player. Yes. Yes. And he's going to have against him kind of like those early $2,000 players kind of had where it's like, well, how many of these guys can we vote in? Yeah. Like, you know, so that's what I completely agree. That's exactly how I ever written is that he's a Hall of Very Good and a damn good one at that.

Oh, he's one of my favorite Hall of Very Good players. He is one of the reasons the Hall of Very Good exists is because of guys like Cam Chancellor. The Cam Chancellor wing. All right. Last one here from Devin Harvey. He said, I remember Nate comparing playing quarterback as a rookie in the NBA where being even a somewhat positive contributor is impressive. I've also heard that cornerback is a very hard position for rookies to be positive contributors. What would you both say are the hardest positions for rookies to be positive impact players and which positions are the easiest?

He maintains that no position is easy. He understands that. But I think it's a good way to frame the question. What do you think about this? Hardest, yeah, quarterback obviously. But then off that corner, yes, I would say is number two. And then tackle offensive. Really, really it's what it is.

Is close your eyes and think of what the premium positions are, is that that's kind of what it's going to get into with the hardest is. I actually think tight end is it's so hard to be a tangible tight end as a rookie. It really is. Like to be like a starter and playing like all every snap or a lot of snaps. That's really hard. Center. I think it's really hard. Like if you're going to be a starting center day one, that's usually a huge transition.

And maybe that's just my, you know, just being around it. But it's that's what I have. You don't think tackle? I think a lot of guys have succeeded at tackle pretty early. a lot of guys have come in and played the position well. And I think that there are some cases where we've seen guys take jumps. But, you know, like Tristan Worf's came in last year and was an all pro player right away. And I think there are some positions where that's really hard to do.

Quarterback, obviously, being number one. The one that, to me, running back is the easiest. Easiest, right? I mean, running back, we see rookies all the time can just explode onto the scene. I think that's the easiest. I think guard is also one where. if you have the goods, you can be an all-pro player right away. Think about what Seth Martin was.

Think about what Clinton Nelson was. That's one where, and I think that's why Guard and tackle to me, tackles obviously harder. But I feel like what it takes to be a good offensive alignment, it's such a learned position. And if you know how to play it and you understand like, I understand body control and I understand angles and I understand how to take this stuff away, if that's stuff that you just innately understand when you're a prospect,

I think you can succeed right away in the NFL. If you're a toolsy prospect who needs to learn, I think it's different. To me, it depends on what type of player you were coming out. I guess is how I would frame it. But I think in some positions, it doesn't even, it doesn't matter how well you know it. To me, the most underrated one that is kind of counterintuitive, you wouldn't think that it's hard to play right away, offball linebacker. You very, very rarely see offball linebackers come into the NFL and play.

play well right away because it's just too many moving parts. The eye discipline that you need and the way the game moves, especially now, if you look at the way the college game is, like over the last five years or so, I guess it's kind of shifting now. But let's say the college game five, ten years ago, where it's so spread out. And you're playing off the ball and there isn't a lot of traffic. And now you're coming into this NFL game, even in an 11 personnel world where you have all of these shifts, all of these motions, all of these pulling guards, the things that you have to

pay attention to, guys swim. Even players drafted really high. Devin White, Devin Bush. Guys that we've seen drafted in the top 10, Roquan Smith early in his career, guys that we've seen turn into stars, it takes time for them to get there. Isaiah Simmons is another really good example. Zavon Collins can't even get on the field right now for the Cardinals because of all of these considerations.

So I think that one is one that people just don't think enough about. when you feel like the learning curve is steep. It's hilarious, he said it, because at first I, like, put that as my last easiest, and I changed it to one of the last ones. I go, it's hilarious he says this because I go, I want to talk about this. I have a dash. Talk about this. Because we for late, I would say, you know, 07, you know, 2012-ish, a whole bunch of linebackers

running a rookie the year because back then you could just plug. You could just go, all right, I'm going to be a rundown linebacker, you know, and just you didn't have to worry about, like, you just say all the coverage. stuff. Now, you enter the NFL, they have to worry about personnel. They have to worry about down and distance communicating that stuff. Blitz looks. Hey, who's three, who's two, who's one, who's this, whatever community came at this, starting up mugged up on the ball and then having to work backwards. I mean, look as great as like Michael Parsons is playing, you know, as that. Look at him the first couple of weeks in coverage when he's just like, ah, like just, I mean, he's a great athlete

so he could recover. But I mean, his head's spinning on stuff. I mean, people were trying to make fun of it early in the year. But it's, It's like that it's hard. It really is hard. More is being asked of every position now. It is so mentally taxing on every single position that, yes, you want to have the athleticism and overcome that. But yeah, that's obviously running back is the easiest one and guard. Yep, I had that.

And I said maybe detackle, like maybe a nose tackle. Like that would be another one where it's just like, hey, yeah. Because you don't have to worry about anything. I think this is interesting. If you look at the list of defensive rookie of the year winners, okay? Yeah. From 2006 through 2009, it was all aligned. linebackers. And then even before that, Jonathan, so from 2004 to 2009, it was every year but one was an elf ball whitebacker. Jonathan Vilma, D'Amico Ryan's, Patrick Willis, Gerard, May, O'Brien, Cushing. What do we just say about 2011? That's when the passing boom happens. Yep. So as the game spreads out to a shotgun, 11 personnel world, you saw fewer linebackers having that sort of impact immediately. The only one was Kikley. And Kikley was just a savon. I mean, he was. He was.

I mean, he was just a... It's Keeckley. He was a virtuoso. I mean, he was just a phenom. And even he'll tell you, I think, that what he understood about the game as a rookie compared to year two was completely different. The only other linebacker since Luke Keekeley, offball linebacker to win defensive rookie of the year was Darius Leonard.

I mean, for the most part, that's not happening. And you look at edge guys, like Nick Bosa, it's hard to have the impact that a Nick Bosa had as a rookie or even his brother as an offball linebacker in today's NFL. I think it's just more difficult. That's why you see Michael Parsons and why he's going to win it, it's not because of what he does as an off ball linebacker. It's because of what he does as a pass rusher. Exactly.

And it's just that's a way of tangible because he's going forward. Now you have to go backwards a whole lot of times. And as we know in pass protection, it's very hard to go backwards. And so now defenders are worried more and more about that. That's why corner is hard. That's why coverage for linebackers is hard. It's just where the game is right now. And it's like that is a great way to actually.

see the transition of the game, just looking at defense of rookies of the year. It's just like, oh, there's the change in the change in the NFL. It was right then and there. I very rarely do this. Someone should go back and listen to our draft podcasts when we were talking about Michael Parsons. I can't remember what show it was on.

It might have even been with you when we're talking about Michael Parsons. And I think I uttered the words, I would never have him moving backwards on passing guns. I just watched him play in college. just moving forward on every single passing down. And he's done pretty good at it. It's a smart way to deploy him in the NFL as a rookie. We were talking about, okay, God, I wonder,

I don't know what the discussion was because I brought him up. And we were like, oh, yeah, I was like, man, he's a freaky dude. And you're like, yeah, as long as he's going forward. I think that's, I swear. So I must have been in June. So I wonder what the show was. I don't know.

They all blend together now. I just, I remember saying that explicitly. And then seeing what he's doing right now, I was like, oh, man, even a blind squirrel every once in a while gets one of these, right? I always say my house sigil is a broken clock. That's what it is. All right. That was very fun. Appreciate you doing that, buddy.

I always love when you jump on here and do this. We'll back with Mitch later in the year. As always, guys, thank you very, very much for sending these in. We have a fun time doing this. I hope that comes across. We really enjoy it. We really enjoy it because of how thoughtful, how interesting, how just joyful some of the these questions are. So thank you very much for sending him in. We'll be back tomorrow with

Kurt Warner. Kurt Warner's going to come on. We're going to talk about some quarterback play in the NFL this year. I had some guys that I really wanted to ask him about because I think it's been kind of a different year for the types of quarterbacks we've seen succeed. And I think a lot of them have been in the same mold as Kurt Warner was. So I wanted to get his input on some of those guys and some of the younger quarterbacks and the style of quarterback that we've seen be successful so far in the NFL. So please come back. back and check out that on Wednesday. We'll be back with our regular schedule program.

We'll do that with Lindsay on Thursday, with Nate and Sheila on Friday. In the meantime, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform. Choice. I would sincerely appreciate that. Please subscribe to The Athletic. Theathletic.com slash football show. We'll be back tomorrow. Appreciate you guys listening.

We'll talk to you soon. This was The Athletic Football Show.