The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Mailbag: Bills & Steelers concerns, the value of QBs, how to watch film, Baker Mayfield & more with Steven Ruiz

Episode Date: October 5, 2021

Steven Ruiz of The Ringer joins Robert Mays for the next Mailbag, taking your emails and voicemails coming out of week 4. Bills fans are worries. Steelers fans don't know what to do about Ben Roethlisberger. Browns fans are in limbo about Baker Mayfield. And how does Robert watch the NFL when looking to evaluate? These questions and more on a new Athletic Football Show.Voicemail line - 872-222-7073 Email - athleticfootballshow at gmail dot com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. Today's Tuesday, October 5th. I'm Robert Mays. Really exciting show for you guys today. We're doing another mailbag as we do every single Tuesday. And I am thrilled to welcome the ringers, Stephen Ruiz. That is the first time that I have said that.

It sounded good. How are you doing, buddy? It sounds good, right? It sounds good. I was the ringers Robert Mays for a long time. So I understand how that sounds. And it sounds good on you. I've enjoyed your work.

I was very vocal about you getting that opportunity. I'm very glad that you did. And to no one's surprise, you have crushed it thus far. So congratulations. To my surprise. No, no, but I appreciate it. I appreciate the support you've given me over the years. And I'm just trying to, you know, following your footsteps.

Oh, shut up. That's, you guys are, the football coverage is in a much better place now than it was when I was there, which is a testament to all of you guys. So first things first. Thank you to everyone again for sending in your questions. Like, it truly means something to me that all of you take the time to do this. It's the reason that we do it. It's appreciated.

It's appreciate it on every level. I feel bad that we can't get to more of them, that I can't get to all of them. I wish I could. There are not enough hours in the day. But for those that sent them, just know it means a lot to me. I want to start with one that I thought was pretty appropriate for you coming on because I've always appreciated the eye you have when you're watching games and the amount of work that you've done to really grow your knowledge about the game.

Because I get so many questions. We get so many questions consistently about how you get better at watching football, whether it's the way that you take the game in, what you're watching when the game is on the screen, resources for how you learn about the sport outside of the podcast you would typically listen to. And I know that you've done a ton of work on this. Ben Stecker and Ian Kennedy specifically, I wanted to address their questions. watching football smarter questions. So what would you recommend for fans who just want to have a better grasp of the game?

What resources have you used in the past? When I first started out, I started with a book called, I think it's Keep Your Eye Off the Ball by Pat Kerwin. And I know a lot of other people that started with that. I thought that was a good entry point where you kind of learned the basics but not too much information. And then from there, honestly, just watching as much film as you can and watching clinics. I think clinics are the best way to learn. Coaching clinics, and they're everywhere on the internet. You could find them on YouTube.

I would pick one topic that you're interested in. Last offseason, for me, it was past protection. I felt like I had no idea how past protection works. I just dove into it, and I found all the resources I could. I interviewed some people. I mean, you might not have access to those people, but it's out there. It's on the internet. If you want, whatever you want to learn about, you can find it.

and there's probably a clinic about it. And the coaches that do those clinics, they're so good at teaching. That's why they get paid so much money because they can teach high school kids this information. So you should be able to pick it up. And they're pretty entertaining, actually. Like, if you watch the Jeremy Pruitt coverage video,

it's like a comedy set. Like, he does like an hour bit about how bad Tennessee was his first year there. The clinics, I think, is a really good point. I think that there are so many resources available now, stuff that you have to pay for, but also stuff that's free. If you just kind of kick around on YouTube and you try to go down rabbit holes, you can find a lot of stuff on there. And I think, you know, for me, it's about kind of intentionality.

I really struggle with the time aspect of it all because it's so easy to get on the treadmill of this is the season, this is the schedule. I try to carve out like a couple hours a week, literally just football education time, where I try to read as much as I can, like catch up on the work that other people are doing. Because with our schedule and how much stuff we're putting out, if I'm not, intentional about it. I'm just going to get lost. And the off season is a great time for that stuff. Yeah. There are times where in May, June, I think like you said, just the specific topic where it's like, I want to learn more about this type of coverage in the way that it works and just go watch like that Carl Scott Clinic online about the cover seven stuff that Alabama does. It's like, all right, this is really helping me understand how coverage is attached to fronts and things of that nature.

And for me watching games on Sunday, I think the biggest thing that I do is for my preparation that helps me. And I don't watch it to the degree that other people do like Nate can. And my knowledge is not to that level at all. I'm still very much like an amateur doing this. But what I try to do before the games is I'll go through the games I know I'm going to watch and I'll try to pick out like five or six things on Sunday morning because that helps me focus. Because if I don't do that, I start watching nothing. I start watching the ball on each game on the five that I have on. And then I look up halfway through the first quarter, I haven't written anything down because I'm not actually watching anything. So I think just trying to be prepared about what I'm trying to focus on when the game

starts helps me because I have to actively work at this because I don't know what I'm looking at. So that's a big part of it for me. And I think another tip is like be prepared to be overwhelmed. Yes. When I first started out, I had no idea what some people were talking about. And like looking back on it, I could say like, oh, that was so simple. How did I not get it? But I think you just got to constantly hear people talking about it. And one podcast, I, I recommend is Coach Vass's podcast. When I first started listening to it, I didn't know anything, but just hearing him talking with a pen.

That's what I will say. Come with a pen in a notebook. Just hearing how coaches talk and how they think and how they like put ideas together, it like starts to sink it. And you'll get it through osmosis, even if you're not, even if you don't think you're learning at the time. Yeah, I think and even when I'm watching tape, and again, just watching it the way that I do it with not a ton of knowledge is I try to keep a running.

list of things when I'm watching just I don't because if I don't do it this way I'll just get lost I'll start going down rabbit holes when I'm watching get distracted so I try not to look anything up while I'm watching the game I'd be like all right there seems like they're doing a lot of this like make a note and then look it up later so just keeping a running list of things to look up later on but continuously watching so I don't get distracted that's another thing that I've gotten better at because then I'll just start going on true media looking up they do this in this situation and then I'll never get back to the game which is a problem Yeah, I'm not good at that.

I'm like the opposite of good at that. That's my, I'll like, yeah, I'll fall down rabbit holes, go on sports info, solutions. I don't, yeah, I get lost in it. So, yeah, I think watching a ton of tape and just kind of drowning in it and allowing yourself to drown in it is a very good note. All right, let's get to the actual questions about what's been going on in the NFL. And let's start with our first voicemail.

James really like the podcast. Listen to it basically daily at this point. So thanks for everything you do. I have two Bill's questions about the defense. Are they actually good? Like really good? Or are they just playing not good teams

and not good offenses, specifically a lot of backup or rookie quarterbacks thus far? Appreciate the question from, I think it's Jamis, which is the second person I've ever seen named James, which is, I don't know, the interesting coincidence. He had another question about the Red Zone offense. I want to stick with the defense, though,

because I had the same question coming out of yesterday. We didn't discuss this for one second with Nate last night on our week four review show just because they crushed the Texans. There were a lot of other interesting things that happened. Where are you at on the Bill's defense? Because I looked up the numbers today. Their EPA is literally twice as high as every other defense in the NFL. They're twice as good as the next best defense in football through the first four weeks.

Did you see the Aaron Schatch tweet? I saw, I saw little threads of it. I did not see a lot of the actual stuff that he was streaming about. I knew he was tweeting about the bill's defense. The greatest performance in the history of DVOA. Yesterday. Yeah, by like 14%. Like the old record was the Steelers in 99 against the expansion Browns.

And they were like minus 120%. The Texas are an expansion team. So that makes sense. And the bills were minus 134. So it wasn't even close. But I will say this, they were number two in DVOA coming into the week. So before the Davis was. game. They were already good. And you could talk about how bad Davis Mills is, how bad the Texans are,

and you'd be right in doing that. But they put some points up on the Panthers and everyone was going crazy about that defense last week. I think they're pretty good. I also think they play terrible teams. My answer to this question is, I don't know. I don't know how good they are because especially early in the season, it is so hard to extricate defensive performance from competition. even with stats that are the control for that, even like DVOA that is supposed to be opponent adjusted, I think it's really difficult when the sample size is so small. I will say, they have guys on that defense that are playing at a really high level. Like Matt Milano is playing incredible football right now.

Guys like that were good players taking a step. I think what Star Latouille is given them is just another piece they have up front. They have so many bodies they can throw at that problem. I think they're second in the NFL and pressure rate. they're playing really well on the back end. You just watch the way they're passing stuff off. I think that Micah Hyde is playing at a really high level. Guys that we've known, but I think that are playing one notch better than they have even

over the last couple years, like Milano, like Hyde. And if the young pass rushers can kind of continue ascending, Epinessa's had some moments. I think that Rousseau is going to be long enough to be distracting to offenses even from the start when he's not putting it together. I think the pieces are absolutely there. If you told me by the end of the year, this is the best defense in football, I would not be surprised, even if I don't think they're as good as they've shown over

the first four games. No, and I have all the faith in the world in Sean McDermott. I'm a Panthers fan. I watch this man work. Like, every, at the beginning of every season, it seemed like there was like a fatal flaw in the defense. And by week six, he'd figure it out and have the defense playing at a high level. Carolina was always like in the top 10 in DVOA.

I know the bills have had some down years. Maybe it was just one year. Maybe it was just last year. It was just last year. and it was really just the first half of last year. I mean, by the end of the season, if you look at it, they were top 10 defense, top five-ish defense over the second half of the year. Yeah, so I think the defense is going to be like their floor is good.

Now, the question is how great can it be? And like the past rush is doing well. That was the question coming into the season, right? How would the defensive line fare? They drafted two guys. They have Latulae coming back. Ed Oliver has been disappointing. but so far, so good.

And I know they've played some bad offensive lines and they've played some quarterbacks who tend to hold onto the ball, which may make things look a little better. But just they pass the eye test. Like the defensive line is getting push when I watch the games. Yeah, I totally agree. I think that they're jarring people back,

especially in the run game too. I mean, they're playing on the other side of the line of scrimmage consistently. My concern with them is if they lose anybody in the secondary, they're in a bad way. They're not deep at corner. They're not deep at safety. Every single one of those guys is vital to the way that they're playing right now. If any of them miss time, I think that things could start to deteriorate in a hurry.

But as currently constructed with everyone on the field, I think they have a chance to continue being pretty damn good. Nick from Richmond asked a very similar question. I wanted to acknowledge that because we got a couple are the bills, is the bill's defense real questions? I wanted to make sure we noted that. Next one here, this is from Brian Coyne from Ireland. He says he's a huge Eagles fan, which makes Sunday's a fun combination of watching a sometimes promising offense and a non-existent defense than looking at the standings to see how many top 10 picks the Eagles have. Inspired by this, he has a question. I thought this was really interesting.

He said, should quarterbacks be worth more on the trade market just in terms of contracts? We see the price paid by the Rams to get Matthew Stafford. That seems like a bargain even when surveying the league. He says, I'm struck by the fact that if you don't have a quarterback, you aren't going anywhere. Some teams are especially unlucky in their middling quarterbacks cost money. Could you play some matchmaker for a few teams that appear to be a quarterback away from contending and toss around some realistic compensation packages? We can get to a couple of those hypotheticals, but just this idea of what quarterbacks are actually worth,

I think is something worth chewing on because when they traded two first-round picks for Matthew Stafford. It's like, oh, man, that seems like a lot. And I know that they weren't great yesterday against the Cardinals, but what that offense has looked like and the things they can do with Matthew Stafford, compared to what it looked like for golf, you do that 100 times out of 100 based on the early returns. So I'm wondering,

with some of these deals and like with a Rogers trade potentially on the horizon, maybe a Russell Wilson deal if things go south in Seattle, should quarterbacks be worth more than we typically ascribe their value to in the off season?

What makes this question complicated is that Matthew Stafford type talents don't come along very often. That is a very good point. like the Lions had to be rebuilding the Rams had to have this monstrous contract they had to offload they had to have first round picks that they're willing to give up we know the Rams would do that like it's hard to look at that as something that you could use to study where the league is going and then you look at this last offseason we saw Sam Darnold get moved for

much less than what Stafford did we saw Teddy Bridgewater get moved and those guys have had not as big of an impact as Stafford has had but they've had impact on their offense and those guys were freely available. So I think that that's what complicates the trademark. And when you bring up guys like Aaron Rogers and Russell Wilson, I think that's just a totally separate conversation that's in their own realm, even compared to Matthew Stafford. The Stafford thing, I think, is a perfect example, like you said,

of a guy that just doesn't come along very often. There are quarterbacks that are that talented than hit the trademark. For the most part, guys that are available are available for a reason. It's not a perfect storm of you get to the end of a decade-long career, a team is turning over, they're rebuilding. There aren't that many full-scale teardowns that happen in the NFL in a given year. Maybe Matt Ryan is a slightly diminished version of that next year, but Matt Ryan does not look good right now. It's not like you're dropping 2018 Matt Ryan even into that, when to whatever team he would be on. You know, Philip Rivers is somebody that was available in free agency near the end of his career.

I think that that's even a type of guy that doesn't come along very often and isn't really available for most teams to go out and find in a given off season. I mean, next year, we'll get to this with our next question. How many starting level quarterbacks that you think, all right, we could win with this guy would realistically be available next off season? Jimmy Garapolo would be one. Is there anybody else that comes to mind immediately? There isn't anybody else to me that is like, oh, yeah, that could probably be available. and that's a guy worth going after. You could argue that Jimmy Garoppel isn't even that guy.

Yeah, maybe Kirk Cousins, if the Vikings are willing to eat a bunch of dead cap. He has a $35 million base salary next year, by the way. It's insane. And Matt Ryan's like $46 million. There just aren't that many guys. And that was the other part of the Stafford deal is that his base salary was low. You could trade for him and it could give you some flexibility. There just aren't that many good examples.

but I think the Stafford move in hindsight, teams probably should have been willing to give up more. If you're a team that was like, let's say you're Carolina, should you be willing to give up more than the eighth pick and something else to go get Stafford? Maybe not with what they've gotten from Donald so far. But I think that's the type of team to think about it because those two first round picks on their face seemed like a lot for the Rams to give up. But they clearly are probably feeling pretty good about that right now. Yeah, I don't think the Rams ever regret giving away first round picks because they keep doing. it again. They've never regretted it, even when the trade doesn't work out so well.

But yeah, and just hearing you talk about, like, what who might be available next offseason, this last off season was really the off season to go after a quarterback, man. Five guys in the draft and a few guys on the federator trade market. Yeah, it was a good time to be trying to find one. Next year is not. Well, that dovetails very nicely into our next question because we're going to talk about your favorite quarterback, Ben Rothesberger.

Hey, Robert. This is Colleen. I'm a Steelers fan actually living in Dallas. So it's pretty obvious that Big Ben is reaching the end of his road here and that we don't really have any solid backup quarterbacks that we can have step up in his place. So Mason Rudolph, we already know what he looks like. And Dwayne Haskins is also that other option. That doesn't seem to be what the Steelers are wanting either.

So looking to next season, assuming that Ben retires, what do you think would be the best option for the Steelers? Really appreciate the question. She asked, is it a rookie? Do they try to go get somebody on the veteran market? This isn't a team that typically likes to part with their picks. The McA Fitzpatrick example is an exception. But what is a realistic option for the Steelers and where should they be looking for their next quarterback? Nathaniel Haney asked another question, a very similar question.

A lot of what is the future? sure of Ben Rothesberger and the Steelers quarterback position questions today, which probably shouldn't be surprising. So, Stephen, if you're the Steelers and you're looking at the landscape next year, do you think it's worth trying to see what's available in the draft, even if you're not picking in the top 15? Do you think it's worth exploring the veteran market? What is the best path here forward for the Steelers? Well, I think the Steelers are going to think that they still have a chance to win. I think they'll be like in a similar spot as the Colts were when they signed Philip Rivers last off season.

I don't know if that's really where they're at and if that's the right perception they should have of themselves. But I think, I don't know. I just don't see a team like the Steelers just, you know, totally blowing things up because they do have so much talent. And I think it would, you would have to kind of blow things up to be able to make a move up the draft board to get, I don't, I don't even know who you're trading up for. Spencer Rattler.

Are you going to make a move for him? I don't know if that's going to be the case. But there are, there are some options like Cam Newtown. is an option. Let's, let's, I don't think he's going to sign with a team during the season

just because of his personality and what that means to bring that guy into your locker room when you have a starter, presumably. But I mean, I could see them signing a guy,

like making a move for like a guy like Darnel was last off season. I think they could bring in a guy like that and they have enough around him and good coaching staff to get something more out of a guy like that. They can have a reclamation project at the QB position, and maybe it's can.

Let me throw out a couple options for you. What about Garapola? Because she mentioned Garapolo, and I think that if he's available for a fairly meager price, if you can get Garapolo next year for the Dalton deal and the Fitzpatrick deal this year, is that something you think is worth it as a stopgap option for the Steelers when you consider the amount of receiving talent they have. If you put him in a similar sort of situation he's in now, it's like, play point guard, get the ball out to guys, we're going to create yak opportunities for the playmakers on our offense.

I can see that as a temporary solution, even if it's not that exciting. I think he would fit. Let's say they keep Matt Canada around. I think he fits into that offense. Matt Canada upset Clemson with Nathan Peterman running that play action type of offense. So I think he would fit in it. Canada wouldn't ask too much of him. It would be a departure from Ben Rathesberger who has a.

certain way he wants to play the position that doesn't jive with the current player he is and necessarily that that roster right now. But I think maybe that's a good thing that it would be a departure from the way Ben Rathisburgish point. No, no, that's what I'm saying. Jimmy Garapolo, I feel like that that's like the complete opposite end of the spectrum. And that's what they need right now. They need that type of offense. And they need and maybe they need that type of quarterback. I don't know. But if I was another AFC North team, I might be thinking about Jimmy Garoppolo next off season. Oh, we're going to get into that. But I, I think that Garoppolo is an interesting name.

What about Jalen Hertz? It's just guys that could be available next off season. That is a drastic departure from where they are right now. You'd have to make a lot of significant tweaks to your offense. I don't know. I'm wondering if Matt Canada is still there, if we just see a bunch of crazy shifts and motions and pistol because he is super cheap.

I think that's why that could be an attractive option. You probably wouldn't have to give up that much to get him. His base salary is like a million bucks. you could still work on other areas of your roster next year. Just talking about guys that could be around for the right price. He seems like another one. Yeah, and we saw this with the Eagles late last year. That offense was way worse off before Hertz came into it.

At least he added some juice to the running game. And you look at the Steelers' offense, where is the juice at all? They have no running game. They have no dropback passing game. It's screen passes to receivers and checkdowns. So I think it's going to be better than what we're seeing right now. and even with this version of Rothesburg, who looks like the worst quarterback in the league,

not named Davis Mills, I mean, anything's an upgrade. And if it's cheap, like Hertz, I would assume that Hertz is going to be easy to acquire. Because the Eagles have, they have these three top 10 picks, assuming the Colts stick with Carson Wentz. I mean, there's no way Hertz is the quarterback next year, right?

So he should be freely available. That was my thought there. On the other end of the spectrum, what if they're the team, if Rogers becomes available where they say, we have enough talent right now, let's just give up whatever it takes. Because they can afford it next year. I mean, even with their current contracts on the books, they have about $30 million in space. Rogers is a $23 million-based salary next year. You don't even have to do any gymnastics to fit him in there.

So are the Steelers a team that can say, all right, we still have T.J. Watt, Cam Hayward, Stefan Tuitt, the linebackers that we have, Minka Fitzpatrick. We still have all these young cheap receivers. Let's give up three first round picks. Go get Aaron Rogers and see if we can pry this window open for two more years. Organizationally, that seems on brand to me. You said it seems on brand? Yeah, I think it, because like you said, I think they would convince themselves that they can win right now. Even if the resources in giving those up is not necessarily on brand, I think the way the Steelers probably see themselves,

that would be the type of win now move where they could maximize the core that they still have in place. Yeah, I could see that. And I mean, that's a no-brainer, right? I don't even think you ask the question because you know the answer to it. Do whatever you got to do to get Aaron Rogers.

Add them to that roster. You have enough talent, like you said, that you have a lot of young talent. I mean, I think you can go forward. You get two years with Aaron Rogers to win a Super Bowl with one of the better defenses in the league. I mean, it beats the alternative. Would you rather see him in Denver or Pittsburgh of those two options with the receiving options they have in both places?

Denver. I think so, too. And a part of it is the altitude. I just want to see Aaron Rogers throw the ball in my high eight times a year. All right, sticking in the AFC North with a quarterback that I think you were alluding to before, another one that has his fan base quite worried. Let's get to our next voice mill here. Hi, guys. This is Grant from Akron.

As a Browns fan, these past few years have been very pleasing, and I'm very glad with the moves that we've been making and what we've been doing. But I have a question. So, Baker, what do we do? Obviously, a lot depends on how the future season plays out and whatnot, but what kind of options do you guys think are on the table, like extension-wise or trade-wise? or like what are the odds of us finding somebody that is at his level or better in the draft? Because, I mean, it's obviously been a lot of years and we haven't come up with many quarterbacks. So thanks for any insight. Appreciate that question from Grant.

I'm sure it's a sentiment that's being shared by a lot of Browns fans right now who just expected to be a rocket ship this year and their offense has not looked great over the last couple weeks. We talked about this a decent match just Baker's performance last night with Nate, where are you at about Baker Mayfield's potential future with Cleveland? Like two weeks ago, I was like, you have to pay him. There's no question about it. Like, I know he's not. We're on the same page.

You would move the same boat here, you and I. That was two weeks ago. And I'm sorry. I watched the film of that game of their offense right before I came on. And I was speechless at how bad he was. I never thought he would be that bad. And it was the problem was. it wasn't like a typical Baker.

It was like all the things that are wrong with his game wrapped into one Sunday. You saw everything that's wrong with Baker-Mayfield's game. And games like that and how the offense looked when he was struggling as a result, like it was either first down run that got stuffed, first down run that was successful, then they would do a second down run

or play action shot, which Baker usually messed up. And then they got into second long and almost every time it seemed like I wasn't like actually keeping track that they would run again. They didn't trust them in second and long. Then it would be third and medium and he would do, he would like hold onto the ball too long, try to scramble. Try to scramble so much yesterday.

I still don't understand. The play where he just completely ignored Kareem Hunt in the flat and then high step toward the sideline is just one of those. Like his brain is just broken today. Like there's just something going on. And the thing is like you see glimpses of that even during his good games. but in this game it was just the whole time. But seeing it over the course of 60 minutes just remind you of his limitations. And you're looking at the strength of this roster and how they still won the game,

even with him playing maybe the worst game of his career. And you might think if we pay him a lot of money, we're not going to pay these, we're not going to be able to pay these other guys as much money. We're not going to be able to keep this support system around. So he better take a next step and it better be a big step. And I know it's hard to be. move on from quarterbacks, especially one who has a relationship with these fans that I think

is special, even around the league. And a fan base that's never had a quarterback. I think that's another complicating factor. When you have a team that's been in the quarterback wilderness for the last 30 years, and you have a guy that you can even grab onto a little bit, that's difficult. For me, the Baker thing has always been about this. What's the alternative? It's always been the biggest question to me.

I don't think you should move on for the sake of moving on. I think going back into the draft is dicey because of the timeline that the rest of your team is on. You have this core that's ready to win right now. I mean, the rest of that team, and I haven't watched their defense again. We got several questions about that. I'm going to do that this week, but their defense clearly has been playing a lot better. They obviously have a lot of talent on that side of the ball. Most of this team is going to be back next year, outside of a couple exceptions where maybe it's a good thing.

they're not going to be back. Jarvis Landry may not be on the roster next year, but you say $15 million if you do that. If they re-sign Wyatt Teller, make a couple other cuts, this is a team that could have $30 million in cap space with not a lot of holes. You can keep Odell, you maybe try to upgrade your second receiver spot in free agency.

Let's say this team next year has Odell Beckham and Chris Godwin, combined with all the other talent that they have on defense, the same offensive line, Nick Chubb and Cream Hunter back. I mean, it's one of those things where that's a win now team. I don't want going with a rookie quarterback in that situation, I think there's a lot of risk there. But is this a team where, all right, if it's Aaron Rogers and we have to trade everything we need to go get him, is that the type of move? Because that is an upgrade. If there is a clear upgrade available, then I think you should consider one.

But at a certain point, you have to make a decision about his contract. It's a really, really complicated mess. I mean, I've written a lot about it. I've thought a lot about it. I don't think there's a clear and easy answer. But if I were a Browns fan after the last couple games and especially after yesterday, I would be chewing my nails. It would not be a good situation.

I said this before the season. I think they're the 2019 49ers. And they don't, if they don't win the Super Bowl this year, and I don't think they will. But if they don't, they can't make the same mistake the 49ers made last off season and not move on from their Jimmy Garabola.

I just don't think you can afford to do that because you're going to like you said, look at this roster. It's so good. You cannot afford to waste another year on a quarterback where you don't know. Like what does Baker have to do this season to convince you that he is the guy? Like he's worth whatever money, blank check. It's a really good question.

I think that you have to see him improve in the true game changing quarterback aspects of his game. What does he look like on third and seven when he doesn't have the play action crutch? When he actually has to make throws in the dropback game, when teams know he has to throw the ball, where is he there? Because he looked better in that area down the second half of last year. But if that doesn't get markedly better, I think you have to go back to the question that we got in the last email. You need a guy. Do you want to be the Rams in that purgatory with Jared Goff? Or do you want to be the team the year after?

Do you want to be the Stafford Rams or the Lance Niners where you've already come to the conclusion that this guy isn't enough, that we need better play at this position to get where we want to go? And I just think that everything that's happened over the last year with those teams who, I think like you said, we're right in the same family of offenses that the Browns currently sit. I think it can be a useful lesson that Cleveland's brass could learn from. Yeah, but I think it might be a little dangerous too. If you look at the Rams and you go, oh, they signed their guy. It didn't work out. And they still were able to find a solution to it. I don't think the Browns are going to take the wrong lessons from the Rams.

I think another front office might be in danger of doing that. But the Browns, I have faith in making the right decision here. But going back to your one point about where you need to see Baker improve and the third down stuff, my thing is I don't think we need a whole season to know whether he's going to be that. guy because I think that's fair being that guy requires a level of comfort in the pocket that he doesn't have and that's not something that just you know switches on and if you don't have it you don't have it and I don't I don't know we've seen other players grow more comfortable in the pocket Russell Wilson is a great example earlier in his career he he couldn't wait to get outside the

pocket now he sticks it there and he goes through his progressions with Baker it's it's like a mechanical issue. It's like even when Russ was panicking in the pocket, he would always find himself with the right platform to make a throw. And I think that's the difference between him who can make it work. And a guy like Kyler who can also make it work because he has the most ridiculous arm I've ever seen on a person that small. But Baker just doesn't have that.

And we saw that in this game. He had to make some adjustments and then throw from an awkward platform on those two throws to Odell Beckham. And he just couldn't do it. And I think that's the problem with Baker. He doesn't have, it's not an arm strength. issue. It's a quick twitch issue. He can't reset quickly and then still have that arm strength that you see when he's able to plant his feet and actually put his body into a throw.

That's the problem is that's when we talk about off platform arm strength, our platform arm talent. He just doesn't have that. He doesn't have that ability to make off schedule throws because he needs both those feet in the ground. The level of torque he needs to create that arm strength is obvious every single time you see him on cork one of those. And he just, I totally agree. I can't believe we're already here a month into the season. And maybe we got here too fast, but I'm with you. I've gone through the exact same kind of roller coaster of emotions with this, where after the last two weeks, it's like, man, I just don't know anymore. I just don't know what the right answer is.

All right, let's get to a couple more here. We got multiple emails. I'm talking multiple, at least three or four. Christian Shanks, Adam Wells, Jesse Roa about Kyle Shanahan. And whether or not, it's time to start asking some hard questions about what's been going on with the Niners, about their overall success, about their missteps in personnel. Steven, I'm going to ask you, do you think that people are justified in asking whether Kyle Shanahan's missteps in other areas have overshadowed his talent as a play caller and

play designer? Yeah, I'm ready. I'm there. I'm there. And do you know what it took? I think it was this morning. Someone posted winning percentages and he was below Joe Philbin on the list of head coaches. And that's when it sunk in.

That's when it sunk in. What is the thing that troubles you the most about what the last couple of years have looked like in San Francisco? I think it's his insistence on getting his guys and he is not very good at picking his guys. It seems like the person that knows the least about which players are going to fit in the Stannahan system is Kyle Shanahan. Like the Joe Williams anecdote is something I always come back to. He was pounding the table for this. I think he went to Van Gogh. Vanderbilt, this running back that probably wasn't going to get drafted and they end up taking him in, I think, the fourth and he never really plays. But Kyle Shannon insisted. He was like, if we don't get him, I'm going to be thinking about him all day. I can like, I won't be able to get him out of his, out of my mind. And then you see like Brandon Ayuk, I don't think he was a first round pick. I mean, I personally don't think he was a first round pick. I mean, he picked Jimmy Garapolo. He co-signed him getting that money. You can blame the personnel deficiencies on.

John Lynch, but I think John Lynch has done a good job building up that defense and the offensive guys that Shanahan has picked. Dante Pettis is another one. They just haven't worked out. Debo Samuel might be the only one. I was looking at it earlier today. And I didn't realize that in last year's draft, they went from having a first round pick to a fifth round pick. And the reason for that is that they gave away third and fourth round picks for Emmanuel Sanders for however many games that got out of Emmanuel Sanders. They traded a second round pick for D. Ford. And, that left them with a fifth round pick after those two firsts. And then you think about all the other ones, but the Pettus examples are great one.

They gave up a third round pick to go up and get Dante Pettis, who immediately was on Shanahan's shit list and never managed to get any sort of consistent playing time or opportunity. They gave up a fourth round pick in this year's draft to go up and get Trey Sermon. And then for the first game of the season, Trey Sermon had been usurped by a guy they drafted in the sixth round. And think about just all the other signings. Jerich McKinnon. Think about how much money they gave Jerich McKinnon when they went out to get him early in their tenure together. They are so convinced about some of these guys and then they get in the building and that conviction just seems to go away very quickly. And this all requires a caveat that this team is fifth in EPA per play on offense this year. They're still good and they're still going to be good on offense as long as he has a functioning human quarterback. But that shouldn't just explain a way.

way or overshadow all of the other things that have subtly kept them back over the last couple years because it's been bad process. And the game management stuff is also an issue. And it's been an issue for a long time. And it seems to be an issue specifically in that coaching tree going forward on fourth down, being aggressive when you should be aggressive. I mean, do you know, maybe this is a bad comparison and maybe I'm overreacting to them losing yesterday.

But it kind of feels like with the personnel decisions like Chip Kelly, in Philadelphia where he wanted his certain guys and then he got him in and then it seemed like he gave up on them like immediately. He got tired of him. Like to Marco Murray, that was a big signing for them. And then he like, they didn't really use them all that much. I don't know. I just think he needs to be maybe he's just an offensive coordinator. Is that so bad? Maybe he's the greatest offensive coordinator ever. But I don't know. It's not working. He's been given talent. He's had time. I want to see what it looks like with Lance. I think before. Before I make any kind of big declarations, I want to see what it looks like with Lance.

Because while he did co-sign the deal to go get Jimmy Garoppel, I think that was a marriage of convenience more than anything else. I think that's a, you know, this is available. He's available for a second round pick. We can make it work with this guy. This is their big, big swing of quarterback. Because in a lot of ways, I don't think the Garapolo contract has really held them back. You know, his huge cap hits were early on in their tenure where they weren't really spending any other money elsewhere. And maybe they don't trade to Forrest Buckner, the Garapolo deal hasn't happened, all of that stuff.

But I think Garapolo's contract has been livable for the most part. I think the other stuff that's really hurt them is mostly injuries and other subtler aspects of how they've done this. So I want to see what they look like with the quarterback they chose in that offense and what the full version of that offense looks like. And the other side of it that I do think is worth just considering, when you invest in a lot of injury prone players and then those injury prone players, get hurt, you are not without blame. That's not bad luck. That's a bad plan. I tweeted a couple years ago, I've told this story.

I tweeted out just a picture of their pro football reference injury chart from a season. And it was just red. It was just blood red the whole thing. And I got a message from an executive with another team. And he was like, this is not just some happenstance thing. Look at all of those guys on there. When you walk into a season, I wish Jason. Verrett was not like this.

But when you walk into a season where Jason Verrett is one of your starting corners after you consider his entire history, that becomes a you problem, not a Jason Verrett problem. And I think they've run into that a lot over the last couple years. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Like you could see these injury problems coming. It's kind of like, I mean, it's a different team, but the Colts with Carson Wentz. Like we couldn't have been surprised when Carson Wentz got hurt almost immediately. Multiple times almost immediately.

That's just one thing. He's spraying both ankles. I think I have said on the show that I want to see where they are in a year. Like as excited as we might be about this, one more year and then we'll really think about what the Panthers are. But I couldn't have you on here without talking about the Panthers when they're extremely relevant in a way that we did not anticipate coming into the season. So when you look at what Sam Darnold has been like over the first four games, taking yesterday into account, do you think he could be a viable option for them moving forward even after this year? Yeah, I mean, of course it depends on the financials. I don't think he can, like the voicemail said, can he be our franchise quarterback?

No, but I think he can be the starter. I would not consider him the franchise quarterback. We've seen him operate in this offense. My issue is Joe Brady's leaving after this year, right? If this continues, I think that's the eternal problem, right? Yeah. And what I mean, I think personally watching the film, I think Sam has been better than he has been, but I think he's still Sam.

It's just everything else around him is better. But the issues that he has, maybe holding onto the ball a little bit too long, maybe being a little reckless with the ball at times. I think they're still there. I think his weaknesses as a processor, I don't want to call him weaknesses, but his style of play is still the same as it was in New York.

It's just that people are open now. And he has more time to go through his reads and they're just spamming the hell out of option routes out of the backfield and half-field reads. It's very simple, and a lot of boots and play action. If you want to look up an offense that's QB friendly, I think this is the offense. It was perfectly manicured for Sam Darnold's strengths and weaknesses. I was skeptical of Brady after the first year, not because I watched him and I thought it was bad.

It was just the noise that you heard and you heard Teddy Bridgewater saying, we didn't practice Red Zone or whatever he said. But I'm all in. I'm a believer now. I went back and watched the tape from last year. during the offseason. I was like, well,

this is some good stuff. Teddy Bridgewater might not be the quarterback you want to execute this stuff, but like I could see what they're trying to do. And now they have a physically talented quarterback who can make a lot of these shows

that Teddy Bridgewater can. And I really like the offense. I love how it works and how they use every part they have. It's like perfect how they use them. Like DJ Moore, Robbie Anderson. I don't think these guys are like,

they're good players and they're going to be good on any team, but I don't think they're the easiest players to use. like DJ Moore had some route running things. He had to work out early on. Robbie Anderson has been relegated to a deep threat before in his past when he was with the Jets. And these guys are just like complete players in this offense.

And I think it's a testament to Brady. I agree with all of that. It's really funny hearing the plan they had this summer when I talk to people there about why they traded for Donald. It's happened exactly how they said it was going to. This is exactly what they envisioned, what you just said, where it's just this offense that's perfectly tailored. to getting a different version of the guy that we saw when he was with the Jets for all of the reasons,

for all of those specifics, guys are open, the structure of it, how quickly he's able to process because of how they're communicating things to him. It's like, all right, if you see this, then that. Like, this is the order of operations here. And that's what we've seen. I think it's still legitimate to ask how far that can take you, especially if you take that play call or out of the equation, which he probably will be if this continues. But what about everything else?

Because that is something I have been quietly impressed by over the first month, even after yesterday. The way that DJ Moore is playing right now, he looks fantastic. The way that the defense is structured and how they're using those guys on that side of the ball. They still have significant holes. Their offensive line needs to be better. They need another full offseason and say, all right, we need this and this and this. But I am pleasantly surprised with every other aspect of what they're doing, even outside. of Sam Darnell.

And I'm not concerned about the defensive performance because of what Dak Prescott is. I knew that was coming. I knew you were not going to be able to trick Prescott like you were these other quarterbacks with these simulated pressures and these pre-snap looks. He's just too smart. I don't want to turn this into a Dak Prescott thing, but good Lord. He's paid Manning.

He's paid Manning. And you can't try that those creepers against paid Manning doesn't work. And we saw it didn't work. But I think Phil Snow. has got like this whole coaching staff has made a believer out of me i mean i like matt rule like who knows i mean he's a program builder you it's hard to like evaluate him from like an ex's no standpoint right yes you can't evaluate him on sundays but joe brady has been like i said has been great phil snow won me over i wasn't a fan after last year but now that i see him with a little bit more

talent and we saw him with more talent on the back end before the injuries you kicked in I think he's an NFL defensive coordinator. And I mean, that's a good sign for a guy that is a culture builder, like a CEO type. He's hired good coaches. That's what you want those guys to do. And that's what they've done. The question is when you have a guy like that, can you sustain it? Can you have the right guys in there?

And the Steelers are, I think, the best example, right? I mean, like, Tom does a ton with the defense. But what they were able to do on offense consistently. But that's part of it is when does Rathusberger, become the offensive coordinator there, which it kind of seemed like it did in the 2015-16 range when they flipped from being this juggernaut defensively to this high-powered offense. It's just sifting through the different eras of what you are when you're a CEO-type head coach is not always easy.

The Ravens are another really good example, right? They've done such a good job of maximizing those eras as they shift between them. But that's a difficult dance. most people can't do that. And that's the challenge that the Panthers are going to have to face if Joe Brady leaves. It's like, all right, what do we look like now? And sometimes those answers, the ones you have to come to, are very disappointed. And you hope that they can avoid that in some way.

But I will say this. I think Matt Rule, his initial hires weren't like no-brainer hires. And they weren't, they were risky hires. Like hiring a Big 12 defensive coordinator. Like that's like a mean. 60-something Big 12 defensive coordinator. Right. And hiring Joe Brady, like Joe Brady had never called plays at any level. And now he's running an NFL offense because he was a passing game coordinator for one year at LSU. So I think he has fresh ideas when he's hiring these coaches because these were fresh ideas hiring those two guys. That gives me some encouragement that he's going to think outside the box. It's not like Cliff, like Cliff got hired. And his defensive coordinator was an NFL retread. It was Vance Joseph. It was. It was Vince Joseph. It wasn't. wasn't necessarily like a creative hire.

And he was at the heart of schematic evolution. I think the Big 12 is like where football, where we're seeing the future of football, at least the last couple of years. I mean, I'm all in. I mean, I'm all in on the coaching staff. I still don't know about ownership.

I don't know about the front office. But the coaching staff has won me over. And I didn't think that was going to happen. I'm like reinvested in the Panthers. I'm actually interested in watching the play this year. who has been one of like the guy that has kind of driven the most excitement for you like the guy just like I cannot believe I'm having this much fun watching this dude play football uh Brian Burns and Jeremy Chin is the other one like everyone knows Brian Burns is amazing he's fun to watch but Jeremy Chin is who that's like the perfect type of safety he's a hard hitter and he could play he could play just as well going forward for at the line of scrimmage and going backwards and that's what I like about him. and then Shaq Thomas.

Thomas is like, he changes number to number seven. Now he's Luke Keekeley or he's Thomas Davis all of a sudden. I have a theory that the number seven thing is giving people superpowers because Trayvon Diggs also switched to number seven in the offseason. So there's a chance that if you switch to number seven, you just instantly become like one of the five best players in the league at your position. More guys should try to tap into this. Now I got a theory, a number seven theory.

Maybe it's a space jam situation where Ben Rathesberger lost his number number seven powers and these other guys have have absorbed them and that's why we're seeing this ben rafflesberger because there's something to explore here watching ben rothusberger is like watching that scene of charles barclay when he's at the playground that's how he's playing football right now am i wrong it's so true it's so true like he's going to go to the park he's going to go to the park and play pickup football and then like the kids the neighborhood youths are going to be like you're not ben rothusberger get out of here uh i was really i was thinking about this earlier. I noticed the seventh thing. I was like, I think there's got to be something there.

Because the Trayvon Dick thing, I can't even, I thought he was going to be really good this year. Coming into the year, I was like, I think that guy has a chance to be really good. I thought he looked excellent, not excellent, but he had showed really good flashes down the second half of last season. And he's just been 10 times better than anyone could have predicted. He's not a train lane all of a sudden. It's ridiculous. And I totally agree with Shaq Thompson. So there's something there that we should have to explore with Chin. These ideas about hybrid players are always cool in theory, right? It's like, oh, if we get all these guys that are positionless

and we can use them in all these different ways, half that shit never works. When you see the tweets that are like 50 snaps at free safety, 20 snaps at lineback or whatever at defensive end. But now of those guys are ever good at any of the things they do. That's exactly right. It's like Isaiah Simmons last year. It's like, this isn't a good thing.

We're not going in any positive direction. Chin can absolutely do that. I saw him in person at Colts Camp. and he was walking off the field and I'm around NFL players a decent amount. Very rarely am I'm like, what is that guy? And walking past Jeremy Chinat and like this dude is,

that's an insane person. Like that guy is just built in a very different way and I think that you've seen that. The way that they have that flexibility with some of these guys and again, where it can be a negative on some teams, the way that they play with all those creepers, with all of those looks, when the lines are blurred between those people,

it can be really cool. And I think that it is going to look a lot better against most quarterbacks than it did against Dak Manning on Sunday. Right. And they did get some free rushers. Yes. And the running game was just, we talked about it last night.

They're just mowing people down. It's very fun to watch right now. Last one. Holden from Maryland, Joshua Ray actually asked a similar question. With some perhaps unexpected results in the NFC West on Sunday, have your opinions on the NFC West teams change? Who do you see as the best team in the division going forward?

I wanted to power rank it. Four weeks into the season, how would you power rank the NFC West teams? Oh, man, I don't want to rank the 49ers in CHawks. I feel like I'm going to be wrong no matter what I say. That's why this is great. I'm still on the Rams, number one. I know yesterday was, you know, it was yesterday. It was weird.

I'm not taking too much stock out of it. The only thing I'm taking from that is Kyler Murray's amazing. And if he keeps doing this, he's going to win MVP. But best team, I think the Rams, I'm not going to be swayed by one result. And then Cardinal second for me. And I mean, I'm going to put the sea. Like I watched the Seahawks and it doesn't look right. But then I look at like football outsiders and they're number three in offense.

And I'm like it doesn't look like the number three offense. But I'm going to put them number three just because I don't think Tray Lance is ready. And I don't think Jimmy Garoppolo is the guy. So I don't know. I was high on the 49ers before the season. But Tray Lance, I think Tray Lance just needs another year. That's totally fair. If we're going to flip a coin going with the better quarterback is probably the best answer to a coin flip.

And I think that's, you saw that yesterday. I mean, those teams aren't far apart. And there's a couple weird plays. The quarterback gets hurt. The rookie doesn't know what's going on. He's inserted in the middle of the game. It's bunched up with those two. I think that the Rams still are the best team.

I think that the Cardinals are probably second. And I agree with you. Right now at this moment, I'd probably go Seahawks Niners. But it's amazing how fast these things could change because I thought the Niners are going to be really good. I thought the Lance when he came in could hit the ground running. their offense would look like a machine. And it still might, right? Like, there's a chance that he just really settles in

and they have this juggernaut offensively that is a run game unlike any other in the league outside of Baltimore. But we have to wait and see that because we have not to this point. Yeah, I want to at least see his first start, his first plan to start before I make any judgments. But seeing him as a passer, it just, I don't know, it just doesn't look right yet. I think he has it in him.

I'm really high on him as a prospect. but it's just not there. And no surprise. The last time he played, he was 19 years old. Now he's playing in the NFL. All right. That's all we got,

buddy. We could do a lot more of these, but it's Monday. We had a big Sunday yesterday. I don't want to keep you for too long. I sincerely appreciate the time. Please tell people where they can read and listen to all of the stuff

that you're doing at the Ringer. Well, you can find me at the Ringer.com. You can find me on Twitter at the Stephen Ruiz. If you're like a Bengals fan or a Browns fan, basically if you're an AFC North fan, except for Baltimore, don't follow me probably. I'm just going to give me that advice.

But yeah, and I host the Ringer podcast, the NFL show on Fridays with Ben Solac and Caitlin Jones. I feel like we've had some great shows so far. And I think we're just getting better. It's a great show. So tune into that. You guys absolutely should. I have told multiple people there than when they hired you and Ben.

I was like, that is a very good idea. And I think that the football coverage there has been fantastic for a long time. I think it's even better now because of what you guys. guys are giving them. And yeah, it's excellent. So please go check that out. Thank you guys, as always, for listening. Thank you for your questions.

We're going to try to get to as many of these as we can every single week. We have a good time doing these shows. And the only reason we do them is because of your participation in the quality of questions we get. So thank you again for all the thoughtful questions, thoughtful voicemails. It truly does mean a lot to me. We will be back tomorrow with Mitchell Schwartz and John Beck. John Beck is going to come.

We're going to break down the rookie quarterbacks so far. He worked with several of them before the draft. He has a pretty unique insight about what makes some of these guys go. So we're going to do a deep dive on the rookies to this point in the season. Until then, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. You guys have been doing better with that, but you can still take it up a notch. Please subscribe to The Athletic. Theathletic.com slash football show.

Tons of indispensable information there. so if you do not have a subscription, I highly recommend getting one. We'll be back tomorrow. Until then, thank you guys for listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.