The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Mailbag: Defining MVP, DeSean Jackson the Raider, a crazy hypothetical, misleading wins, Vikings & more with Nate Tice

Episode Date: November 9, 2021

Time to open the Athletic Football Show Mailbag as we set our sights on week 10. Nate Tice is this week's guest with Robert Mays as they dig into your voicemails and emails on Mike Zimmer's standing with the Vikings, DeSean Jackson signing with the Las Vegas Raiders, some misleading wins that had us fooled earlier this year, Bengals talk, what "MVP" really means, Justin Fields' development and more! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. To the athletic football show. Today is Tuesday, November 9th. Joining me today. It's my good friend Nate Tyson. How you doing, buddy? Doing well. I'm having a weird feeling of deja vu.

I feel like I just saw you a couple hours ago. We haven't spoken in like 16 hours. So that's not as long as we normally go between podcasts, but we wanted to have you on the mailbag. We hadn't done it yet. We've been cycling in and out. Here's the thing that I learned with these. I just want to have people on that I like talking. to. That's it. Yeah. Just want to have it be a nice little breezy conversation on Tuesday as we're

decompressing a little bit from the weekend. And I don't know if you know this, my friend. You are one of those people who I enjoy talking to. Oh, I'm the ninth draft pick. I'm the last one in the lineup. We just made it to week nine and I made the mailbag rotation. So I'm good. Sando did it twice before I asked you to do it. So I don't know how that makes you feel. But I will just say I'm the pitcher. So that's why I'm batting ninth. And then we'll just go from there. That's a, that's a easy way to cop out of this. We got some good ones today. We got a lot of voicemails. As always, guys, thanks for sending these in. If we could do 100 of them, I would. Unfortunately, that's not beneficial for anyone involved here. But I sincerely appreciate everyone taking the time to do this.

I've responded to some on email. I will try to respond to others tonight. Sometimes I do that during the Monday night game. Unfortunately, tonight I will be busy during the Monday night game. It's been a strange experience today with the Bears playing on Monday night. I forget. And then every hour or so, I remember that they're playing on Monday night. I was like, oh, shit. By the time you guys listen to this, it could be hilarious or very sad, depending on what happens.

How about that Bears game, huh? That's all we could say. We can just pre-record one sentence of happiness. You can say the same line, but one's like just upbeat and one's just, you know, in the doldrums. I'm always kind of sad. No matter what happens.

So I think that's just where I'm going to sit. I'm just going to sit at kind of sad. That's pretty much my going rate at this point when it comes to my team. I think you're saying neutral. That was amazing. I know no one's seeing this right now. Robert was acting like it's middle ground and he just goes, kind of sad. So his default setting is kind of sad.

That's amazing. In more ways than one. All right. Let's get to the voice mess. We got a bunch of them to get through. Nate and Robert. It's Sean from Nashville at Shawnee Pat on Twitter. Try to remember of the Midge Content Board of Directors with a friend of the show,

Meena Kimes. Just wanted to ask a simple question. Who is on the Go Make Stuff Happen, Mount Rushmore, in today's game. Nate loves to talk about the Go Make Stuff Happen, usually in reference to Kyler Murray. I grew up in Michigan from 1977 and 1991, so I saw the ultimate forbearer of this and Barry Sanders. And again, thanks for all you do to make the game so enjoyable for all of us to listen to the show. Bye-bye. Wow.

See, sometimes it's nice. The tone of the show is often appreciative, sometimes panicky. That's pretty much how the Monday calls go, which is a nice. little blend. I like this question. It's a fun question. I think that it's, I'm curious your answer. If you had to pick four guys that you just find yourself tuning into or find yourself kind of drifting to on a Sunday as you're watching a bunch of games happen at the same time, who would you say? I mean, number one, stone cold is Mahomes. I mean, that is just, I mean, that's just, I didn't include him because it's so obvious. It's so obvious. Yeah, and that's fine. We can go others. That's what's nice about this. I would say, receiver wise for me, I get drawn. It's just rookies I like. Even for me, I really have a really fun time. I don't know why I just said rookies, but just players I like. I have a really fun time every week watching like just the dominant athletes just go. DeAndre Hopkins is one of those for me because he is just such a unique player that it's just like, okay, I want to see where he is. Every time I watch Arizona Cardinals game, it's yeah, okay, I watch Kyler, but I just want to watch DeAndre Hopkins just, on people left and right. When he was in his prime, uh, gronk was one, but I'm not going to include him here. But gronk is the all time list for me. At first when I read, I kind of saw this question, I thought this was all time list. So I put gronk as like my first answer. So it was like, oh, I can

use this like, you know, again, once I realized what it was. Um, but Lamar is another one. I just instantly every week, I'm just going to watch Lamar. And then if I'm going to the front, like, if I, Trent Williams is one of those guys that like no matter where I'm watching I'm watching a left tackle because you just want you might see a highlight there. So like Trent Williams is one of those guys. And if you guys haven't been able to tell, I'm naming all offensive guys because that's kind of where my eyes draw to and that's where I go to. If I do have to go defensive guy, it's J. Juan Ramsey. Because Aaron Donald is like, yes, I appreciate everything he does.

But what Jaylon Ramsey does on a snap and snap in, snap out basis and watching how he affects the game comes up on tackles. That's a guy. I just, I love watching every week. So I did all guys with a ball in their hands, just because that's kind of how I thought of this category. The first one for me is Nick Chubb. Every time Nick Chub touches the ball, I just feel like fireworks can happen. It's almost disappointing when he gets tripped up for a two-yard gain. Part of me gets let down because any time he touches it, he scored a 70-yard touchdown yesterday.

Okay? 230-pound guy scored a 70-yard touchdown. Third-longest touchdown of his career. Third longest. Just multiple 70-yard touchdowns. Very few guys... At 2.30. At 2.30, he's just ripping off 75-80-yard gains.

And so few guys have the ability to be a home-run hitter and a consistently productive player. It's funny because they will often run the ball on second and long in a way that is not analytically sound, right? They know that's bad. You don't have to tell them. The math tells them they shouldn't do that. but they look at runs as potential explosive plays in ways that other teams don't because of him in part.

And I just think he's so, and Derek Henry, I think, has a lot of those explosive big runs too. But Chubb to me, just the way he breaks, tackles plus the explosiveness. I just ever, the combination of traits when he has the ball in his hands, he's my favorite running back in the league to watch and it's not particularly close. AJ Brown is that receiver to me. I was going to say. I just, yeah. I just love watching. his style of play, I think he's a really good, it's funny because when I was doing a lot of this work

before the season about how offenses would have to react to the way the defenses we're going to start playing. If we're going to see more too high domes, if we're going to see more underneath stuff, what types of players and types of approaches might be beneficial in that world of football? And the Titans came up a lot. And it was because of all of those inbreakers and drift routes and glances that they throw off play action because if you're going to have people that make you earn it, you need receivers that can earn it. And that's what he is. So just this, again, he's 2.30. But the way he can do some of the stuff from the slot now is so much more nuanced. I just find my eyes drifting to him all the time. And then quarterback wise, it's Lamar and Herbert.

Lamar is just so unlike any quarterback that I've ever watched consistently. I mean, Michael Vic was obviously such an amazing talent. I was so young. I didn't really appreciate it. And Lamar just stands out in that way. And Herbert, any game can be the coolest throw you've ever seen. I mean, yesterday he had the one you tweeted where it's just a set-up play that's a half rollout. And he just launches it 60 yards across the field.

And he makes it look so casual. So those are the guys. I think Lamar on a, what is he going to do every time he touches it? Herbert, what throw is on the table? and Shub and Brown just because their physical profile is so outlandish, and it's combined with this real elevated skill level they bring to their position. So those are my four guys. I want to bring up one more because he's an answer for something else we're going to answer,

but I do because it'd be bad for me not to answer him, but just in my heart is I really do drift to watching Christian McCaffrey. Like he is a guy that I just appreciate this game. I know. And it's I've always, you're going to, I'm going to talk. about more, I think later. But it's those types of guys, those three down backs that can really do it all, like literally anything, anything you ask from a power run scheme, outside run scheme, but split them out,

run a whole route tree. Like, I'm always going to like those guys. And McCaffrey being a guy that's on the field 95% of the time when he is healthy, it's so much fun to go like, where is he, where is he this time? Where is he is in the slot? And he's a guy that I just drift to. And I've loved him since Stanford, even, you know, like he was just a guy. Even at Stanford, I was watching that, I was watching Austin Hooper.

I still remember. And I'm watching him, watching him. And I'm like, who's this, you know, I'll be honest, who's this old white running back? Like, and I was like McCaffrey. Is that Emm McCaffrey's kid? And I was just, okay. And I was like, oh, man, this guy's pretty good. Like, this guy's returning punts too.

And so, yeah, he's another guy that I would be remissed if I didn't bring him up in this discussion as well. All right. Let's get to our next one here. This is an email from Evan. Cook Koch, K-O-C-H. I don't know how to mess up pronounce it. I wanted to ask you this specifically because we talked a lot about this style of defense. he said, I remember watching a Cardinal Seahawks game either last year or the year before,

and Russell Wilson was having an absolute nightmare game against Vance Joseph's double A front. Granted, the Seahawks had a battle line at the time, but Wilson never seemed to figure out when they were coming and when they weren't. He was taking sacks, throwing the ball hot even when nobody blitzed. They had no answers. Given the Cardinal's success this year, I keep thinking back on the game and wondering why that defensive style isn't more prevalent. Can you give some insights on what answers are there for the offense against that style? It seems like so much stress on the offense to have to be worried about. Are they coming?

Are they not on every snap? And I wanted to bring this up because we talk about Zimmer a lot. And obviously, that's a hallmark of what Zimmer's done over the years. It's, in a way, a certain version of it, the Saints do consistently. We like it. And especially in this world now, this season, I think it's been even more prevalent than ever, just the amount of creepers and mugged up looks and simulated pressures where you're only bringing it for it's been such a staple of NFL defenses this year.

So I'm curious, why do you think more defenses don't lean on it? as a foundational part of the way that they play. It's a heavy passing down look and passing down a second and extra long or third downs. And with it is, I think Evan answered his question a little bit too. He says, oh, it kept giving Russell issues and he kept giving Russ issues. That's what it takes advantage of, quarterbacks that are unaware of protections. And I'm not trying to be mean to Rust. He's just not asked to do it.

That's just how he lives in. So maybe it takes advantage of bad protection schemes that don't adjust. or unaware quarterbacks because you have to, the just double mug, just bringing the 2A gap is, it's fine. It's a nice fastball. It gets a lot of teams. You can make the center running back edgy. Offenses are getting a little better about protecting it.

But the real shit is when you look up that look and then you just bring a guy off the slot or you bring a free safety. And that's the stuff that really gets offenses and abide. The Panthers versus the Saints is like the ultimate example this year. Just watch that game. And then that's like what you need to see. How it's the same three plays in a row. Three in a row. It was the same thing over and over and over.

And what did I take advantage? Winston wasn't adjusting. He wasn't moving them. And there was a backup center. They weren't adjusting the point. That's what it takes advantage of. The problem with it is you can, if you run zone against it, you can wot it up and they can go out the gate.

Like it's, that is an issue. That's why you don't run it every single down. Or if a team knows what you're on, what you just brought up to more pressures and sims and creepers coming out of it. that's why I think more defenses are going like, oh, wow, we can run this because we don't have to blitz. We can run cover two behind it. We can bring a mic, but then drop one of our ends or we can bring both of the guys up in the A gap and then drop both ends off of it. They're getting a little more creative.

Offenses get creative. Defenses get creative. It's just how it goes. Eves and flows. So I think it's just susceptible to the run game. If you do wad it up and offenses on your game, they will gash you. And that's you have so many guys close to the line of scrimmage running from the line of scrimmage. You just brought it up.

The Matt Ryan Collpitz, or the Matt Ryan completion of Pitts yesterday is exactly what I was going to bring up. That's exactly the example right there because he has to guard number three breaking out. So if you have an aware quarterback that knows, hey, we're protected here. I just have to hitch up and throw this. It's 15-yard gains, 20-yard gains. You have to have a very athletic and a very cognizant defense and a very wear defense. That's why Zimmer can do it so much is because those guys are smart and know what they're doing, know where they have to get to on those looks.

So it's just, it's a risk-reward thing, just like a lot of these things when you're like, wow, why don't they do it more? Usually because the downsides are pretty bad. Usually it's because you're going, you look like a pitcher that just gave up a homebron going, oh, like it just goes over your head, that deep ball going over your head. It's really interesting because when you watch Matt Ryan yesterday, and I think that there are some quarterbacks that do fall into this category. Dak is like this. Obviously, Tom Brady is like this. But as that generation has aged out, Breeze is gone, Manning is gone. Now it seems like an outlier to have a quarterback who can operate at that level. We have so many quarterbacks who are these elevated talents where they can make plays with their

legs or they have these cannon arms that now when you have somebody who can make a team pay for playing like that, it sneaks up on you. But that's what quarterback play was for 20 years because everybody wanted to be Peyton Manning. So now we have a league that's built on hyper talented young quarterbacks or quarterbacks that have been shoved into this Shanahan system that doesn't really need it stress protections it's not a huge part of what they do so when you have a guy who can operate like that at the line of scrimmage it's like ooh look at that even though for the most part that was quarterback play for all of the 2000s i know that deck seems like an outlier yes like who's this guy doing this like it's a weird throwback it's so strange

but that's kind of how it felt and that's why that's i think that's why that sort of, and this is just hypothetical and just anecdotal on my part. But when I see that type of stuff and just how well it's worked this year, to me, it's because of where we're at with quarterbacks, just the pool of them in the league right now. That's a great point because they're beating at post-snap. The old way was to beat you pre-snap, if that makes sense. Pre-snap, get into protection right, and it will just operate. I'll go to one, we're good. Now it's, is one open. Let's use our legs, baby.

Let's break and contain and let's throw off platform. Yeah, but it's a great, great point. But that's what's going to be scary is how many of these young, you know, fast and athletic guys develop the pre-snap stuff. It gets to that point. And that's going to be like, like that could be just a scary way that we go. Like you never like watch Herbert just also to start port and slide stuff out. That'll happen.

And then they'll be unstoppable. It's just they're supernova quarterbacks. They're growing into it right now. Yeah, I know. Yeah. we have that lull. We have that little lull. We're like the 28 to 32 year olds a little bit right now.

It's a really interesting time just for the position in general because that transition is happening. All right. Let's get to our next voice, Mo. Hey, guys. I have a bit of a hypothetical, kind of different from the normal questions you've been answering. So in this situation, you are a middle of road team, maybe nine wins, eight wins. We'll call you the Cincinnati Bengals because they kind of check both these boxes. Would you rather go the rest of the season without committing a turnover?

Obviously, it does not include turnover on downs, no little loophole there, or would you rather go knowing you will not have another injury? So your injury report will be clean, or you will have no turnovers. I love this. You guys are all freaking weirdos, and I'm such a big fan of it. These are the exact type of questions that I love. I'm curious of what your thought is. I would go without committing a turnover.

I thought that was like, I mean, are you kidding? Yeah. I mean, yes, I get it. The injury you like to Burrow. Yes, that could happen at any point. But I would rather take my chances with that and not commit a turnover because like, no worry about fumble luck. You know, no worry about the tip balls. The balls are just going to, I'm going to act like it's just like some glitch in madden where the ball just immediately falls to the ground as soon as it's tipped.

But it's like, yeah, I would rather go without turnover because you just know what you're getting every single game. Okay, yeah, if Burrow ends, your season's wiped out anyways. but at least you're getting a fight and chance. I look back at the last five years, at which teams were really high in turnover differential and which teams were really high in a justice game's lost. The answer is it's teams at both that usually end up overperforming. So it's a huge factor in the NFL.

So my first thought when I was looking at this was teams that win the turnover differential over the course of you that have really good turnover look tend to overperform their expectations in the regular season, but ultimately fizzle out in the playoffs. But teams that are healthy, like the Bucks led the league and adjusted games lost last year, right? They are usually in it till the end. Being healthy helps you win a Super Bowl. But that's because turnovers are so fluky that it's not necessarily going to continue throughout the entire postseason. If you knew going in that you'd win the turnover battle or at least not lose it.

Neutral or better? That's what you pick. So I was trying to make it a little more complicated than it was just because I wore. wanted to look at both sides of it. But I do think the answer is turnovers. If you knew going into a game that you were not going to turn the ball over, that is the biggest advantage you can possibly have in winning that game. I liked this question so much that I asked a head coach, which he would pick.

I was like, we got this question from a listener. I wanted to know what you wanted. He emphatically chose the second one, emphatically chose no turnovers. Like it wasn't even a consideration in his mind. It's absolutely turnovers. I was like, all right, that's what I would have landed on too. I was just curious. Yeah, that's how I was.

I was like, immediately, I was like, turnovers. And I was like, am I underthinking this? And then I did what you did. That's what makes you do. It's like, all right. Let me think about all the angles. I think the way you look at it is just the margin of victory for teams that win their turnover battle because that would be the easiest way to do this.

And it's so, so high. And you obviously, teams that stay healthy usually win a lot. But it's not as stark as winning the turnover battle. So if you knew you weren't going to lose it every single game, that's one of the biggest advantages you could possibly create. Absolutely. All right, let's get your next one. Hey, Robert, big fan.

I was always curious, what causes a team that sometimes have a slow start offensively? If you look at the Raven, it seems like every game this year, they're struggling in the first half, and then all of a sudden they just go supernova in the second half and just score a bunch of unanswered. I'm always curious what the big difference is, reason, vice versa. Thanks. I wanted to ask you this because I think it's a question of scripting and what the first 15

plays look like, how you settle into a game plan. This is something I'm sure you've had a lot of experience with. I'm just wondering how you see it and why that happens with certain teams. Yeah, and every team's different. Like you said, some teams do their first 15. And when we say that, it's they throughout practice, throughout the practice week, they know literally every play call, their first 15 play calls of the game. Sometimes it's 10, sometimes it's five. Some places I know it's just the first two plays. Sometimes it's, hey, our first third down, we're doing this. Our first red zone playing, we're doing this.

Our first third one, we're doing this. You have every play. So guys know what they're getting into. Just to be clear, that's the difference. When you script your first 15 plays, you don't run 15 plays in a row. You have situational play calls that you do in those moments. So if it's third and 18, you're not going to run the ball if that was the next call on the play sheet.

Just so people know that. Yeah, I know. That's what's always funny. It's first 15 of normal down in distance. which is first and 10 or second of one through six, maybe second they go up to second of 11 or whatever. But that's usually what it is. And I think the adjustment stuff is it's players,

it's a human sport, players and coaches adjust. And what a lot of times when you're running that first 15 plays, we'll just call it that, your opening script, your opening plays that you want to do, you're either saying, hey, we got an advantage.

We see something on film. Let's attack it and jump out to a lead and let's go, go, go. Or you do some probing plays. Hey, we get into empty, how do they adjust? All right. If we're in 12, how do we just? Hey, for the Falcons. Hey, we have Cordero Patterson.

He's in the backfield. Did they treat him as a receiver or a running back? So you're probing. So sometimes those first couple drives, it really sucks if you go three and out and ever, but it sucks to go three and out on the first drive because you're like, we got no intel on that play on that drive. You have nothing to go off of. So sometimes teams use some of those plays.

I don't say dummy plays, but kind of knowing, hey, we got something. to counter that. We just wanted to make sure that the safety rotated down when we did that. So sometimes they get too cute. Sometimes the defense does something unexpected, like the Cowboys running cover two against the Vikings. You know, like sometimes they throw shit at you. And so you're, sometimes the coaches don't adjust and they just keep running their head into the wall. And that's bad coaches. Like those are the ones that are frustrating. When you see the teams improve throughout the game, that's usually A, your players are awesome, way to go. Or B, that the coaches are just go, hey, we've started with 100 plays on our call sheet.

We're only running these 28 for the rest of the game. Like this is our menu now. You just trim down the menu as the game goes along. The good coaches know to do that. They don't get offended that their cool play they drew up on Tuesday morning is no longer even being considered. They just go, oh, screw it. We can't run that.

They're doing this against us. The good ones adjust and go, we're only running these two plays and we're spamming up the rest of the game. So it's kind of an adjustment for players and coaches. And it happens every series. Oh, by the way, the other thing, the misconception is it only happens at halftime. You honestly have like three minutes at half time to adjust.

It's really what the tablets, what the tablets are is they adjust after every series. And that's when you see Sean McVeigh with Jared Goff sitting on the bench. They're just going, hey, do you see that? Yeah, that's what we're doing. So next time we go third and five, third and medium situation, we're going to do this, this and this because they're going to cut it. That's what it is. It's happening every series, sometimes during the series.

I've had, sorry, last story about this. My dad would tell the offensive coordinator. So this is my experience with it on the headset. he'd be like, hey, can you tell Derek to tell Rodney Hudson, the center to tell the right guard this, like tell Gabe Jackson this? Like you were like relaying messages into the huddle, like telling him like, and then you'd see that Derek Carr waiting. Like it'd be like a timeout and he'd like turn and talk to him. And also the tight end coach would be like, hey, can you tell him this? And then you like turn to talk to the tight end.

It would just be hilarious like relaying messages. But that's how it happens during the series. But it's always it's a game of adjustments. That's what the NFL is. This may be overstating it. I don't have any hard data as it relates to this. But it feels like the saints are a really good example of. that where they'll come out on the first 15 plays and run 15 different formations and all of these

different personnel groupings. I remember specifically Sean Payton talking about they're playing, I think the Eagles a couple years ago. Remember that monster offensive game they had against the Eagles in New Orleans? It was like 2017 or 18, I want to say. And the Eagles were treating Taysam Hill like another tight end. So they were just having, they had two or three plays that they could go to because of that over and over and over again. I think even beyond that, there are plenty of examples where the Sansell just run the same run play, like five times over the course of a given series that they know it's going to work. So they're this team that has these huge swaths of shit that they come into a week with. And by the time the fourth quarter rolls

around the run, five plays over and over and over again. So they're my perfect example because I just, I've seen that play out the most with them over the years. It's that's such, they are the perfect team for it because of their use of personnel, their use of formations. They are probing. It's just probing. And sometimes you're right right away. And you just strike oil. And you're just like, oh, that was easy. That was easy. It was just run outside zone the rest of the game. But really, you got to look at like the, I don't know, philosopher raptors in Jurassic Park. Two days in a row. I'm a reference of Loser Raptors to Jurassic Park. You know, they test the, they test the cages. They test each section, final weekpoints. That's what that's what good coordinators do. They just

test it, test it, test it. This is why you have me on. All right. Let's get to the next one. Hey, Robert. Hey, Nate. So with the news of Deshaun Jackson signing with the Las Vegas Raiders, almost at Oakland, again, I was wondering, will he be that much of a help for this team, or is it not going to matter? I mean, he chilled some flashes with the Rams, but then he kind of got phased out. Is it just because the Rams like Van Jefferson better? All right. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. We hadn't talked about this at all. I felt like it was worth mentioning. Obviously, he's a big name. There's been a lot of news items as they relate to the Raiders as of late.

I think it does matter just because of something we talk about a decent amount on this show, which is speed as an offensive ingredient. When you lack it, it's a really big deal. And I think especially with the structure of this year's Raiders offense and the way that they've attacked teams, just having a player like that in the mix is integral to how you want to play offense. So even if it wasn't necessary for the way the Rams were playing because of their personnel and just the structure of what they did, I do think having. a guy like that is important for the way the Raiders want to play right now. Yeah, I think it's more of a positive that Van Jefferson has ascended this year. I'm not saying he's a star or anything, but I'm saying that he's a good, useful player. And he's mixed, he mixes well with what the Rams want to do. And he plays the X for them. They interchange cup and woods. And then they need this X to kind of be a little

first. He'll take the top off, run the intermediate stuff, you know, find that kind of be a bigger body for them, even though they all are a decent size, but a longer body, I should say. And I think with Deshawn Jackson, he's more of a luxury player at this time in his age. You got to remember on game day, they only have a certain amount of guys that can play, 46 guys that you can make active. And at the receiver room, usually you only have five receivers active. Some have four, some go up to six, like the bills, but usually you have five. So that means your first two receivers, okay, they're fine. They don't have to play special teams.

But three through five have to play special teams in some way, shape, or four. They have to be a gunner. They have to be a kickoff. They have to be a returner. So if Deshawn Jackson isn't a plus returner for you anymore, okay, then he has to be, he's a one-trick pony. How much do we use that trick? The Raiders use that trick.

The most of any team in the league so far this year. So it's one of those where it's like, it's not an indictment to him how the Rams, what happened with the Rams. It's like more he's a better fit for what the Raiders want to use him as because they have very segmented roles on their offense. It works for them. They works for them. The Rams are more about interchangeability.

Van Jefferson works better for that. And really we should be dogging the two to Atwell pick, but that's a whole other discussion. But it's, but I mean, I mean, you had Van Jefferson on your roster. What was the urge to do all this, but whatever. But that's what that's really what it was. Deshaun Jackson, he's a one-trick pony for them. He just becomes just expendable. And that's just what it is.

It just made a lot sense. And actually, I think the Raiders is just a perfect fit for Deshaun Jackson. It really is. They absolutely need a guy like that just because the way that they play. Carr has 48 attempts of 20 or more air. this year it's tied for the most in the NFL. That's awesome. He's fourth in EPA per play generated on those throws.

The guys ahead of him are like Gino Smith, like two, just very noisy stat stuff, just that it's only been a 10-15 plays. So people that do it consistently, he's done it the most in the NFL and he's been the most efficient at it. The Raiders have generated 45 EPA total on 20-plus air-yard throws this year.

No one else in the league is above 35. That's how big of a gap there is and with the way that they've played. So exactly what you said. They need somebody to fill that role in their offense because that is a huge part of what they've done this year. Yes. All right. Let's get to the next one. Hey, guys.

This is Riley from Colorado. In a crazy week of upsets, it makes me think of the way that early upsets change our expectations. And I kind of want to think looking back on. Week one of this year, what of those games completely misinformed our expectations for the year that we now know nine weeks into it? Thanks so much. Appreciate the show. This is a great question. It is.

It takes us back and it really reminds you how misleading some weeks can truly be. So going back and looking at week one, there are a few games that maybe are a little bit surprising. but if we're talking about being misled, kind of the games that took us the furthest down the wrong road, a couple of them stand out to me. Dolphins Patriots. That would be one a little bit more of us. I was a little more optimistic about what the dolphins could be. That's fair.

I knew the Patriots were going to be an approving team throughout the year, but I was more like, oh, the dolphins, you know, they helped them, you know, they did okay. But I mean, there's the, I mean, we talked about the other day and I don't want to steal your thunder, but I think you brought up a great point about like the Chargers Washington game. And we thought the Washington defense was this juggernaut. So we maybe read, we read too much into results there a little bit in both ways. And it was like,

ah, that one was a little bit more of a little bit more of a, just like there's, there's different vibes to it than I think we expected. As we now know what those vibes are. And I would actually say that that one a little bit. I think that that's right. And I think that the Washington,

I think that the Miami New England game is right. But the one that jumps out to. I mean. Oh, well, the Packer Saints one I think is that one is so weird. We knew to burn it. And that's right. So that one, I didn't go far. I didn't go down any road because I knew just to instantly burn it.

The one that took the longest for me to shake when it came to impressions was Cardinals Titans. Yes. That's definitely the weirdest one. You watch that game and it's like, oh, man, might be a long season for the Titans who now have the best record in the AFC nine weeks into the season. As we all expected. The Titans defense definitely was the weirdest performance of week one compared to the way they've played since. And especially when I remember after that game resulted, I was like, oh, it was a fluky game. And I watched it.

It was like, no, the Titans got their shit kicked in by the Cardinals. And I was like, that was not what I was expecting either of these teams to be able to do that for four quarters, you know, good or bad. So yeah, no, that was the other one I had. But like, you forget because we just get into the season. And it's like it's a week to week league, a day to day league, really. And it's like, that's just another week. Week one counts the same as week 17 or week 18. You know, like that game counts the same in the end result.

And really week one's treated almost like a bowl game in college where they have like four weeks of prep and they can do all these stuff. We got the new pieces, the red shirt freshman that we're burning his red shirt now. Like, you know, these new guys that we got in training camp, this undrafted free agent. So it's like they're kind of overprepped in a way. So like sometimes we like, yeah, we think they're going to do these awesome things, but they're like overdone. And that's why this chunk of the season is like so much more telling

because you're seeing how teams adjust and injuries. They settle into themselves. I mean, it's the conversation we have Doug Peterson on the show a few weeks ago. I mean, that's exactly where this stretch of the season is for. I know the Titans defense hasn't been great all season. It's not like they're so good.

They were incapable of having a bad game. But I did not expect this team to be sitting at seven and two after what they looked like against the Cardinals in week one. So that to me would be the best answer. This question, though, made me remember the 2003 Patriots Bills week one game. Do you remember the Sam Adams? He was on the cover of Sports Illustrated scoring? And it was like, and away we go.

Like the bills are rolled. And then the Patriots ended up and everyone was, I think the Patriots got skunked that game too. I think it was like 30 nothing or something. And the Patriots ended up going 14 and two and winning the Super Bowl that year. It's like sometimes it's just another week. It's just another week that just happened. It's another divisional opponent that you faced. All right, let's get to our next one here.

We got a couple different questions in this vein. So I want to play the voicemail first, and then we'll get to one of the email questions. Hey, Robert, this is Sam. I'm just curious on your thoughts about what the Vikings are going to do here moving forward with Mike Zimmer. The Fire Zimmer was trending on Twitter last night. They get the Chargers and the Packers next, I think.

And it just feels like a foregone conclusion that this team is toast and that they've had some significant injuries and some pieces that just haven't fit together and that the Kirk Cousins era is potentially at an end. How long do you think they fit with Zimmer? Is this going to be a mid-season firing? Do you think he sticks around towards the end of the year? Thanks and love of the show. Patrick Gill sent us a similar question via email,

just considering Zimmer's future and what it might look like. this has been a consistent topic in the voice mobank questions over the last couple of weeks. We've been putting it off because I was going to have a larger Vikings conversation, but I think now is the time to do it. Where are you out with this? What do you think happens with the Vikings? What do you think should happen with the Vikings after what they've shown here over the first half of the year? It's so funny because it's like a heart and head thing.

It's like my head sees them like, they're only a game out of the playoffs. Like they've had some real close games and they're fighting with these good teams. and then like my heart's going like they got some bad juju they got some they do man like they just it's and it's not oh man this is just not their year it's like what year is their year with the good luck like i get the minneapolis miracle and stuff like that but it's it just always feels like they're fighting uphill like they just feel it just always just tight and hard and sometimes the franchises just needs a reset um but i just it's so it's so weird like they're a game out of the playoffs they're fighting with these teams they battle with the ravens they should have beaten the cardinals and

If those games happen the other way, it's like, oh, we're talking about like, wow, what an impressive performance from this Vikings team that's getting healthy, even though I know Daniel Hunter's hurt and all that. But it's just this, he's an intense coach. So there's always just going to have that tightness on the team. He has his philosophy of offense that he's loosened a little bit, but we see what it is. You know, he still thinks that there's only three things that can happen when he throw the ball and two of them are bad. Like, he truly does think that. And so it's like, man, that's the head coach.

It always starts at the top. So who are the, I mean, their best player right now. I mean, Dalvin Cook's incredible, but I mean, Justin Jefferson and I'm dealing are tough players to guard. They're playing the Ravens, man coverage. You know he's still dictating to run the ball and stuff. And it's like, how does this team not just have ways to dial up plays for them? And I think that all starts at the top, you know, plays for them being the receivers

and everything. But I just think that he puts a restriction on that. They're always going to be feisty, but sometimes you just need mouthwash. So it's like, I respect Zimmer so much as a coach. But it's just, this team just feels weird always. By the way, did you see the Falcons are a seven seed right now in the MC? It's hilarious. The Falcons are the seven seed.

I want to talk about over analyzing week one, the Eagles Falcons game from week one. Oh, my God. We've learned so much since then. Things are so different now. Oh, my God. But yeah, no, it's just, I love Zimmer as a coach, but it's just, it's sometimes you just feel the franchise being tight, all tight, tight, tight, tight, tight. Remember the clippers with Doc Rivers a little bit? You know, it just always felt like just bad shit would happen, like just an injury and just,

oh, DeAndre Jordan doesn't shoot up a ball with a shock. You know, they just like, they would just do dumb stuff because it's just like, I feel like they just said like just a tightness as a franchise. And that just, it happens. It's funny that you say tightness because when I think about this team over the last five years, to me it's another image. And it's just them kind of digging deeper into the hole that they're in because there's no choice but to dig your heels in even further.

Okay. So 2017 happens. Such a fun team. I love that team. that team. The defense was incredible and it was like a living organism the way that they would play and just the ways they would disguise things and they had all these guys who were lifers in the defense and they were fluent in it and watching them play together was so cool. And they ran into a buzzsaw in Philadelphia, but I truly believe that was a championship worthy defense. And they also had running back

injuries that year. So you got guys shuffling in and out, but they ended up. Sean Hill made a start. They finish second and offensive DVOA, I'm pretty sure. They're on the doorstep of a Super Bowl. They lose. They sit there in the offseason. That was so Teddy got hurt, obviously. And they had earmarked an extension for Teddy in the way that teams, the draft quarterbacks high do.

You plan three, four years in advance when it comes to your finances. So they had this money set away for a Teddy extension. And they looked at their quarterbacks that they had on the roster with Case and Teddy and said, all right, what should we do here? and they saw Kirk as a rare opportunity in free agency, which to a degree he was. Him hitting free agency was a rare opportunity. He was a quality of quarterback that doesn't often get there

because objectively, Washington mishandled that situation. Yeah. Just think of the path that had to get there. Franchise franchise, like back to back with quarterback? It never happens. Never happens. Because Cousins was willing to play the leverage game and do the staring contest with them.

And we'll stay healthy. in a way no one has ever done before or since. That allowed him to hit free agency. So they saw him as a tier of quarterback that is not often available in that manner, and they gave him that deal, which made sense in the moment. When you look at where they thought they were in 2017 and what would take them over the top, that was their conclusion. If we go get this guy and we pay up for him, that's it.

That's how we can finally kick down that door. look how close we were. In reality, their offense wasn't as good as it showed in 2017. The defense is volatile from season to season. Their defense is always going to be better than most because of Zimmer and the talent that they have. But just saying, we're already here. All we need to do is that final 5%. That's not how the NFL works.

So in 2018, they take this step back. And there's so much other stuff going on there. The DiPhilippo thing. I mean, and that's a whole other part of it. this. They've had six offensive coordinators in six years. And that's for a bunch of different reasons. Some of that is Zimmer. It is hard to work for him. What he wants, I don't think he's entirely sure.

They brought in DiPhilippo, but before the 2018 season, because of what happened in that game against the Eagles. And Zimmer looked at that and said, I want all, I want all them RPO's. I want that. That offense ruined us. I want that. They brought it in. Kirk Cousins can't fucking run RPO's. That's not what he does. So you bring in this quarterback who doesn't do this thing that your offensive coordinator wants to do. It's a terrible marriage. He gets fired.

They go to Stefanski in 2019. Their offense is great. It's a top 10 offense. It looks really good. They have their screen games beautiful. And it's all sort of working. It's a team that is 10 and 6 and kind of right on the doorstep. But they're not right there.

They're not a title contender that season. And they get stomped by that nineers. team, just a Niners team that was a buzzsaw on defense with the way that they were playing up front. And then you go into 2020, it's like, oh, well, Gary Kubiak is here. And I guess we should still try to follow a tweaked version of the same recipe because we were 10 and six last year and we're kind of close. It's just this consistent. But go to the source material. What's going to know. It's just over and over again. It's this consistent rationalization of, well, look how close we were. What if we just do this little tweak on what we were already doing.

And then last year, the offense, it's pretty good with Gary Kubiak. And it's like, all right, if we fix the offensive line and then we get healthier on defense, isn't it worth seeing if this will work again? And that's what it is every offseason. Isn't it worth seeing if this slightly altered version of what we did before is going to work again? But that's what you have. They're just digging deeper and deeper and deeper. And now there are no tweaks left to be made.

it's just time to blow it up. Even if in the moment a lot of those decisions were, you could reason them. You could absolutely rationalize a lot of those choices. When you look at it in totality, you start getting more and more extreme. You start giving out contracts you wouldn't give out. You start pushing money around you wouldn't normally do

because that rationalization forces you to step outside of yourself slowly over time to get to a place that's no longer tenable. And I think that's the place that the Vikings have reached. And I don't know what happens next. Kirk Cunz is a $45 million cap hit next year. Do you trade him? Would anyone want to trade for him? If you traded him, would you have to eat a huge portion of that contract?

Would you just cut him and eat the $45 million in cap because you don't want to pay the cash? If you do that, where are you? It's a really fascinating situation. I absolutely think they need to move on. I think that it's gotten tired. it has run its course, and that's not an indictment of Mike Zimmer. I think Mike Zimmer is one of the best defense coaches in the league. I can't wait for Mike Zimmer to be a defensive coordinator again.

I can't either. I know. And it just all is right in the world. I'm sure he'll be happy for it too. Next year when Vic Fangio and Mike Zimmer are defensive coordinators again, they're just going to be lighten people up. It's going to be awesome to watch. It pissed off.

I know of this stuff. Yeah. No, I agree with you though that it's just like, it just feels like it run its course. Like it's just like, like you said, where's the room for growth? It's like, this is your quarterback. You're committed. It's not like some second year guy that you're hoping to grow. He's fine.

He's fine. I don't think that he is the main culprit here, but it speaks to how little you have to go. There's nowhere to go from here. The pot is too small for you to keep growing. And you're just going to have to take the pot and smash it on the ground. That's the only thing that's going to work here. And I think that's what happens. I don't think you have to fire him during the season.

This isn't a disaster. They're competitive every week. I think you run this out. you see what happens and then you sit there in the off season and say what's next. Maybe you think it's time to move on from Rick Spielman, who has been there for a long, long time. He's an institutional figure. I can understand that as well if you just feel like you really need to blow this thing up. But I think for the most part, those guys have done a good job.

They've been consistently competitive. It's really hard to win a bunch of games and be in a bunch of games for almost a decade as an NFL coach. And that's what they've done. Yep, they were always competing. And that's, like you just said, but that's what there's an old scout line that I used to always hate when guys were just go, oh, yeah, he's pretty good. And they go, yeah, good enough to get you beat. And it's like, that's what the entire Vikings team felt like. You know, it's just like they're good enough, but, you know, good enough to get you beat, you know, because they just don't have that answer.

They never, they could never figure out what that answer is that path was. So like make that they thought they did. And then it's just like it actually turned out not to be enough or just this version of themselves wasn't the path that should have gone down. But like you said, it just felt like they're digging themselves always just like, hey, we're doing this. I'll cover up for this and to go this, this and this. But it's, yeah, like you said, there's just, you got to smash the pot a little bit because it's, it's no half measures. I think the next move, whatever their next move is, it's a full measure move. It's got to be.

It just has to be because they just, they just need it. Like it's a team that's just in purgatory. And the problem was committing to cousins again was probably a mistake. I mean, it was a mistake, but I understand how you get there. It's like, well, how can we blow it up now? But it has put them in a pretty rough spot. All right. Let's get to our next one.

Hey, Robert. This is Christian. I'm seeing all these conversations this week about Tom Brady being the MVP at age 67, you know, putting up so many touchdowns, barely any interceptions, turnovers. And what is the real, just the real definition of most valuable player? because the ratings wouldn't be anywhere without Lamar Jackson right now. They probably be looking at the top three picks in the draft this year without Lamar being there. But at the same time, though, Tom Brady put them ridiculous numbers.

Are numbers the end-all say-all with the record, or is there a combination of you going through the gauntlet and one player just constantly just getting you out of those game-losing situations, combat victories, et cetera. So what matters more in the most valuable player race? Thank you. I think this is two different questions. I think it's a question about value and it's a question about how we reward the AP MVP of the NFL,

which is an award people vote on. The award that people vote on is a big statistics award. You have to have monster numbers. You have to be one of the most productive players. You have to be a quarterback, first of all. It's a quarterback. I mean, it's just about saying. No matter which way you go, if you're going with which guy has the most value and which

guy is the most valuable player, they are quarterbacks in 2021. I don't think there is a possible world that a non-quarterback can or should win this award with the way the sport is currently play. That being said, it is the quarterback that has the best numbers often is on the best team. You have to win your division. You probably have to get a buy in the playoffs. And you have to be one of the most statistically productive quarterbacks in the entire league. Those are all the candidates that would win the award, the award that we vote on.

That's why Tom Brady right now is at the top of that list. I think Tom Brady is probably closer to the most valuable player than other people might think. He does have a lot of help, but I would throw him in there. But this is what it looks like when Tom Brady has help. Yes. This is what it looks like, guys. If we look at the most valuable player, that is a different question to me. So that is worth debating because I think that is more interesting than who ends up winning this award.

But I think that is the gap. I do think there are two different conversations that we're having. Yeah. And what's nice usually is that the stats and the wins and everything just guide the narrative anyways. So it's pretty easy to just go, well, like that's pretty easy to decipher. Like you say, it's usually the team with a buy or top two. usually. That's just kind of how it shakes out. But honestly, this past weekend, I was trying to do it all pro team. Like just like first two teams, see how I would do it. Stumped at QB, man.

It's really hard. This is the blurriest year in a while. They're so good. There's so many fun QVs and QBs I could argue for when it was like, I had to keep DAC off. And I was like, what, you got kidding me. But if you're just looking at the stats for this. But they beat the Vikings without them. It's like that's the hardest part about this. So that happened. And then then my head goes, well, it's Kyler's year. And then McCoy has his game yesterday. And I was like, okay, so what is, are we talking about value of like you say? It's like, what is it? How are you arguing for this?

Like Mahomes doesn't play to his level, obviously. So stat wise, it's Brady and Stafford to me. That's how I look if I'm just looking at stat. There's narrative around them, especially with Stafford. That's how you can look and that's how I would argue it right now. If I'm looking, if I was voting today, actually probably would be Brady, just especially what happened this past weekends, just how things are unfolded. But being most valuable, Lamar is the offense.

He is the Ravens offense. Thus, he is the Ravens team. By design. And so that's the argument for that. If you voted for Lamar saying that's the most valuable player to their team. Yeah. Duh. It's the quarterback, obviously, but then even with Lamar, just the design of everything, like you say.

Yeah, like Kyle Trask is not going to do what Tom Brady's going to do. I get that. But if you watch this Bucks team and then you watch this Ravens team, it's like just like, just like, Christian said, you know, it's like, are this Ravens team's, you know, it's a top five pick, maybe. It's not to make it without Lamar. It's like, but bucks have a little more talent around that. So yes, if I'm voting, it's Brady. But if you are argued for Lamar, totally understand because he is the most valuable guy to their team right now.

Maybe because Kyle are just last couple of weeks has kind of had some, he's the other guy I could argue for when you're talking about value as well as Kyler this season because of just what that team's done with him creating so much. But then the last week and a half has been kind of a ding on his narrative. I guess is a good way to put it. It's hard. different ways about it. I'd really have to sit there and think about it. I think, I mean, it's a fascinating topic, right? I mean, I, I love this shit. Like, some people just get bored

of these conversations and these debates and whatever. I've always been into it. All protein is my favorite. I love it. I love it. There's some of these, sir, there's some things about this job and about the way, the discourse around sports that when you do it for long and I feel like, that's kind of dumb. This shit, I could do it all day. I could argue about who belongs in the Hall of Fame and who should be the MVP and who should be all pro and all this. stuff. I could do it until I'm blue in the face. I want more awards. Yeah. I want more discussion on it. It's just, I don't know. For whatever reason, I've always been drawn to it. And that's why I think that the conversation around it this year is fun as hell because

for the most part over the last, I think last year was kind of an exception. Packers had the best offense in the league, the most efficient offense in the league. So I understand why Rogers got it. But for the couple years before that, right, you had guys that just own the season. Moore owned the 2019 season. Mahomes owned the 2018 season. So there were examples where guys are just so far and away above everyone else that the most statistically productive player and the most valuable player just happened to be the same player.

This year, it's really naughty. I mean, there's a bunch of different arguments that you can make. It reminds me in some way, I think the last season that I would compare this to, maybe I just not remembering what happened in 2016 or 2017. Remember 2015, halfway into the season. year, right? Cam won. But Brady was one of the favorites halfway through the season.

There was a lot of Andy Dalton talk six or seven weeks into the year because the Bengals had the most productive offense in the league and then eventually Cam kind of swooped in and got it. I assume things will sort themselves out over the second half of the year. But when we're at week nine and we've no idea who the MVP is, sign me up for that shit, man. I am doubt for that. That timeline interests me.

And that's where we are right now. And that's the thing is there's no, to me, it's not like, there's no stupid answer. Someone going like, oh, you're voting for Lamar. Oh, you just want to be the cool hipster kid. You know, it's more like, no, it's like, I, there's a lot of guys you could argue for. And I'll go, yeah, I'll listen. I'll listen to what that argument is. And that's what makes it fun.

All right. Next one here, Devin Harvey asks, given the common threads between you two and Justin Fields, I wanted to ask when and how you both consider scheme when rethinking evaluations on young players. You were both high on what fields could be, but obviously his impact. and PFF grades have been abysmal. Have you re-evaluated your thoughts on fields given the poor talent scheme around him? In general, how do you think about reevaluating underperforming players in bad situations? Really, really difficult question to answer.

PFF grades had Matthew Stafford as a 16th rate of QB going on this week. I'm not going to talk about that. Okay, but the, it's a, yeah, there's a lot of ways to attack this question. But for me, it's, you're always considering scheme when you're evaluating any player. I mean, it's, you're watching a college guy that's always part of the evaluation. Like traits matter. Of course, traits matter. But then it becomes, well, okay, if this guy runs a four or four, why is he not, why is he only caught 30 balls?

And it's like, all right, then it becomes a can't or won't or is that that that they not need him to do that to win. I mean, college you don't have to do that. I mean, that's a lot of what college scouting is. So it's always part of the evaluation. Does the coach put him in a bad position? Is he just put in the most safe position possible, especially, quarterback's running RPO's. So like that,

that is like a sugar-coated offense for a QB. It's just give me throws over and over and over. I think with Justin Fields is that Browns game should be burned from everyone's memory. I think that's still in people's memories. Just burn it. The Bucks game was also pretty bad. The Bucks game and the Bucks game rewatching it. I broke it down a little bit.

It was a little bit on Fields. But that one was like, that was his player. That was a combo. That was, but it was, yeah, it wasn't the best performance. But last week against a 49ers, he had some positive. But again, as I sit as to you, a citizen on the show a couple weeks ago, I do look at rookie QBs. We should evaluate them like rookies in the NBA.

If they're even average or seem average, semblance of average, we should be celebrating because it is so hard to be a tangibly decent rookie quarterback. Rookie period, especially first round rookies. Yes, we get some impact players sometimes. But at quarterback, to even be an impact player is so unbelievably rare, so unbelievably rare. You've got to think just even the NBA terms, how many rookie rookies have like made an all-star team. Not many ever.

I mean, so just think of that, but with quarterbacks. And you also just like looking and the question was talking about how like looking at the scheme stuff and looking how that's what the field stuff was. What frustrated me when I was evaluating them was people were parroting the talking, the talking point that, oh, he stares down those receivers. No, he was waiting for guys to read the routes because that's what the scheme was asking him to do. And he had no problems progressing. And I just heard that adage being, you know, parroted, parroted it. by people that aren't watching these games. And that's why I'm not trying to go into a whole like, oh, I watch the film.

But so much gets lost to the noise of grades and box score scouting. And I'm guilty of it sometimes too when I don't watch these guys weekend, week out. Because a rookie quarterback week and week out is like, it's a whole new world every week. It's a whole new game plan. It's a whole new opponent that they have to prep for. They're just, they're jumping into the deep end every single time. So when I'm watching the bears run all hitches in the year 2021 of our Lord, like that's different.

All Hitch is running like a 1996 concept for Justin Fields. It's like that's a little different than watching Mack Jones get to run high, low concepts, or play action and wotted up protections and guys running great routes. That's different than watching Trevor Lawrence getting asked to handle protections and having to throw a deep curl on third and 17 while he's sidestepping a guy, which is different than Zach Wilson, you know, running a play action trying to hit a dick with hitting a guy over the middle of the field. All these guys have glimishes that they're trying to work on, but that's why you have to watch this. It's so it's so hard to just paint a broad stroke. It's more like decent game, bad game. Like that's kind of what it is.

It's like, he looked okay. He looked like shit. That's kind of like those are the two grades for a rookie quarterback at this point in time. Which is frustrating. And I, we do fall into that way too often. The comparison I've made and the distinction I've made, think about what the quarterback is asked to do and think about how that aligns with what he does or does not do well at that stage of his development. to me, the two examples I've used on either end of the spectrum. Think about what the Bengals offense looked like last year with Joe Burrow.

He just ran his offense from LSU. They just put him out there and said, this is what you do well. We're going to ask you to just do this. Guess what? He looked pretty good doing it. He looked very comfortable doing it. Because they were literally going, hey, what do you like? And he goes, this.

And they go, okay. Justin Fields has been dropped into an offense that was not tailored around him, that was not built around him. that doesn't have very good offensive players, that doesn't have adjustments. It's, for me, it is so not conducive to his success and not tailored to him. All I care about is, what are the glimpses here? Like, let's just get to the end of this and figure out what the next step is, because I have no faith in this current setup giving him any chance. That to me is the biggest distinction.

It's like, all right, look at a situation like Joe Burr, which isn't necessarily the best answer for long-term success. That offense isn't going to make him great eventually, but I think evaluating him in that moment was much easier because he was doing things he was comfortable with. Justin Fields is not. All of these things are so different. All of these circumstances are so different.

I think that it's really hard to separate those things. Even with Matthew Stafford, right? If you look at what Matthew Stafford was doing statistically over the last 10 years, and then you look at what he's doing now. Do you think Matthew Stafford is an appreciably better quarterback right now than he was over the last five years? Do you think at age 34, he suddenly transformed into a different guy? No, his circumstances got better.

Ryan Tannahill was the most productive, efficient quarterback in the league over the last three years because his circumstances were different. And Ryan Tannahill was available for a fourth round pick. It's not like the Titans saw that guy like, that guy is going to be an incredible. credible. They love them so much. They started Marcus Marriota for three weeks. Yes.

And that's the thing. It's really, really difficult to untangle this stuff. So there's really no way to understand the difference between Justin Fields and how he's playing now compared to how we'll play in a different offense. Go look at what Jared Goff statistics were as a rookie.

Oh, God. He was one of the worst quarterbacks in the history of the NFL, his rookie season. When Sean McVeigh got there, they were the number one scoring offense in the league the next year. Circumstances matter. And all they added was like Robert, Robert Woods and Andrew Whitworth and like a lot better scheme.

It's really, really, really difficult to extricate this stuff. And I think that at this stage, all you can really do with Justin Field is glob onto the traits and to the moments and just say, hopefully when there is a world that is built around him and the scheme can change in some way, it can look better. Because guess what? At this stage, it should change.

It should be built around him. Because all that matters is the success of your quarterback. What do you think that the Ravens would have done? If you're like, you know what? If we have to build our scheme around Lamar Jackson, maybe he's just not that good. That's the wrong way to think about it. It's the opposite way to think about it.

And I just hope that organizationally, the bears make a similar decision this offseason when it comes to what the next stage of Justin Fields' life will look like. That Ravens example is so good because it's fortune favors the bowl. I mean, that's what I get just, that's why I always say, point your foot, decide what you are, full measures instead of half measures. Because you just, when you do that stuff, it just makes the other answers just clear. It might not be better, but at least it's clear. And there's so much uncertainty in the sport and just running a team and just running a play.

And it's just like, let's make it easier on yourself. Let's take variables away. And with these guys, rookies especially, any quarterback, you're looking at process and progress. I'm not like, that's not some adage. I'm just, it sounded good when I wrote it down. So process of progress, but you are. That's why you have to watch these guys play and play out because I can watch these concepts. Even like what the bears run, it might not be the greatest stuff in the world that I'm like, I'm drooling to watch.

But there's some stuff I recognize and I'm like, oh, that's why cross. That's double slants. So then, yes, I'm just going to like, to my horn and like, yes, I understand some of those concepts. Okay, that's a little easier. But when you watch that stuff, you're looking at what the quarterback does with it. Not looking at just the results and going like, oh, wow. through it. I've seen plays where people celebrate touchdowns on some of these guys. I'm like, I'm not going to say anything because that was bad. But I was like, yeah, a great thrill.

But everything before that was awful. And it's like, trust me, this guy's going to, you know, he's going to drop off. Like you can kind of like feel that because they're getting lucky. And yes, luck is part of the sport, but it's the process to get there. You create your own luck. But if you have good process, then if the players get better and the scheme gets better, then it just increases. It just exponentially gets better and better and better because your steps one through three are already. good. Now we just got to get the other steps, but the base foundation is good. I totally agree. I think process and progress is a great way to put it. All right, we had a couple more good ones, but we've already gone pretty long here. As always, guys, sincerely appreciate you sending all

of these in. I say it every single week, but the reason that we do this is because how thoughtful so many of the questions are and because they make me think, and I appreciate that. It's a good way to get me jump started at the beginning of a week. So thank you again for sending them in. We'll be back later this week. The fun show coming for you guys tomorrow. I don't want to give it away quite yet just because I want to jinx it. We have an interesting guest and then Mitch is also going to be on. Mitch is going to join us for his weekly segment. So please stop by for that.

Until then, please rate and review the podcast if you would on Apple or wherever you listen to your podcast. I would appreciate that. Please subscribe to the athletic. Athletic.com slash football show. So much great stuff there every single day. Please go check that out. We'll be back tomorrow. I'll talk to you guys soon.

This was the Athletic Football Show.