The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Mailbag: Examining the defensive players in the 2024 NFL Draft

Episode Date: April 12, 2024

How many defensive difference makers will go in the first round? What do the Rams do to try and replace Aaron Donald? Why do defensive backs seem so hard to evaluate? Robert Mays is joined by Diante Lee to answer all of your questions about the top prospects on defense ahead of the 2024 NFL Draft.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today, it's our old friend Deonté Lee. DeAte, how are you, man? I'm doing well, man. You have to finally be a part of the intro again. We'll be back on the show, period.

I'm looking forward to doing this. Make sure we keep this tradition alive with talking ball, really talking defense prospects each offseason now for what's been the past three, four years, just about. I'm excited to talk this show in defensive prospects and also just defensive football throughout the spring. Hopefully you'll be back to do some more of that. We have some fun ideas that we've done in the past that I'm looking forward to trotting out again when we get to the May and June part of the calendar, which honestly is one of my favorite parts of the calendar.

I love the off season just because it's like a playground. We can do whatever we want, explore some of the bigger picture ideas that we love talking about. So very much looking forward to that. Today, we are focusing on the prospects, though. We're doing a defensive player mailbag. here's the situation. I was too lazy to come up with the framing for defensive players, so I put it on the listeners.

Throughout the through it out there, asked for your questions. What do you guys want to know about the defensive players in this class? And we got some good questions. So we're going to be able to tread a lot of territory here with the 2024 defensive player class, which I think is a notably interesting one. Lack of guys at the top, you know,

some of the positions that we're going to dig into. Let's start with the question from Evan Donovan, who said, Hey Robert and Deonte. Curious to know how many first round difference makers Deontay thinks are in this defensive class and how far they'll make it in the draft. So I want to focus on the first part of that question

because I think it gets to the meat of the conversation about the defensive class in general. Dane doesn't have a defensive player in his top 10. Almost every single box draft doesn't have a defensive player in the top 10. So as you're considering this and you're thinking about difference makers who could be available in the first round,

How many would you count? I'm really on the fringe with this. I would say four is where I'm at right now. Four. And I probably waxen-wain with whether or not it's actually three. I think a lot of that is like my debate on what I think of Quinion Mitchell. And I would say he's probably the only corner in this class, pure corner in this class, that I would put in that kind of difference maker category,

Cooper DeGene kind of being a hybrid. But I would say there's four that I would. I would say solidly are guys I expect to be big time difference makers. Who are the four? My four would be Cooper Dejean, who I mentioned, Quinn and Mitchell, who I'm more on the positive side of, more optimistic side right now,

Liatu Lattu as an edge and then Dallas Turner as an edge. So two dbs and two edge rushers that I have solidly as difference makers and then Byron Murphy and Johnny Duden as defensive tackles who are kind of on the fringe. All right, so we're going to talk about the edges with a different question here in a little bit. So let's stick with the corners here first and foremost. You did not say Terry and Arnold's name. He is the top corner in this draft to some people from Alabama.

I think Dane has him at 10 on his big board. He has Mitchell at 11. So why do you think that Arnold isn't even in that conversation for you, let alone pushing Mitchell to be the top corner? And for some people, the top defensive player in the entire draft. Right. So Terry and Arnold is still the first row grade, I would say so. I obviously don't do big boards like me, like Dane.

but he would probably be somewhere in that 14 to 16 range if I did one in terms of how I will rank prospects. I would say with Arnold, it's not an issue of him necessarily missing any one particular part of his game. I think he's extremely well-rounded. He's a guy who's versatile. You can probably play him in the slot if you need it to in certain packages can definitely play well outside. Good with press. The ball skills was really, this was probably the first year that we've seen that type of ball production. with him at the catchpoint in terms of force and turnovers and turning PBU opportunities in

the turnovers. But I don't necessarily see that number one, you know, down in and down out, shutting down one side of the field or those elite elite athletic traits that will maybe make up for the difference of what you haven't seen in production on tape yet. Quinn and Mitchell, I think kind of has him edge athletically in a way where I think I'd be a little bit more comfortable taking a chance on him as a difference maker than for Terry and Arnold. Where are your concerns with Quinnian Mitchell? When you're saying that he's on the border for you in the difference maker category, what still gives you pause with him a little bit? I would say a lot of it is tape, right? Like you're playing at Toledo and it's not so much that

you're playing up against Mac receivers, but that's obviously a consideration as much as the defensive scheme that he played in. There's a lot of off coverage, a lot of soft zone. And you do see a lot of that in the league, right? So I'm not going to act like you can. can't translate one to the next. But when I think about difference-making corners, you think about Patrick Certain in the second, right? You think about AJ Terrell in Atlanta, these guys who are extremely long-armed, elite speed guys that you've seen play at the line of scrimmage, play up against top-level wide receivers,

year-in and year-out, and they not only, you know, can take out, take away routes vertically, if they make plays on the ball consistently year-over-year. And for me with Mitchell, I don't know if he necessarily meets that threshold. for me where I would say, no doubt about it, top 10 player, if you need a defensive player, if you're in Atlanta, you can't let this guy get by you. I don't know if I have him there. Do you have anyone there? Because the next question we have is from Garrett Dyer. And he said, is there a defensive prospect truly worth taking in the top 10 this year? I can't tell if it's the insane amount of potential quarterback, wide receiver, and tackle talent that's drowning out the

potential Pro Bowl caliber talent at edge cornerback and defensive tackle. If the Falcons needed a guy on defense. Is there one there or they be reaching for one at number eight? I wouldn't say reaching. I wouldn't say reaching. I think, you know, the easy mock for, I think almost everybody in the pre-draft process has been just dropping Dallas Turner in at, at eight for them, because they definitely, well, they've had a need at edge, basically since John Abraham retired. And they definitely would need one. I would, I would think, in Rahe Morris's defense, right? So I wouldn't say it's a reach to make that pick, because I would say the most aspirational trajectories for a guy like Turner probably would merit taking that

guy around, you know, 8 to 12. But what I would say is like, if you're asking me in terms of grades, my top four guys, so Quinn and Mitchell, I asked you lot to Dallas Turner and Cooper DeGine, those are all top 15 type of grades, right? If you can get that guy in the teens, you probably feel really strong about getting value out of those players, guys who can make an impact pretty immediately and still have an upper trajectory in terms of development. there aren't, like I said, there isn't an AJ Terrell, there isn't a Patrick Sertan, there's not a Will Anderson in this class where you can cite unseen, say, at worst, we are getting a solid to plus starter from day one with this guy, and we think that they

can turn it to all pro talents. I don't know if there's an all pro talent in this class, maybe outside of Cooper DeGine, if you believe the absolute best of him as a player. Is this the most diluted defensive class you can remember at the top since you really started studying this? I would say so. I would say that, and I hear, you know, I'm listening to you and Dan and Nate talk about a lot of other positions in this class, right? Like, I think that in general with this draft, this is probably the most similarly graded between prospects at positions that I can remember in like my half decade or so really paying attention to the NFL draft and evaluating players.

I think there are a lot of guys that are kind of clustered together. This year, more than any, has been more about thresholds. and tears, then it's been about finding top level players at each position, right? On the defensive side of the ball, yes. Obviously, we know how we feel about quarterbacks, about receivers, about tackles. I would say defensively, this is probably as clustered a group of prospects, especially at a premium positions that I can remember. There's not a guy that I could turn on and say, hey, you're going to want,

all I need to do is show you a dozen clips, and you're going to turn off the table and be like, I get it. We need that guy, right? There's not really a guy like that in this class. It's funny. The other class I would go back to is 2021 is kind of like this. And the reason that comes to mind immediately is because the first true edge rusher to come off the board in the 2021 class was J.1 Phillips at 18. Micah Parsons went 12. But there's a reason Michael Parsons went 12. It's because people didn't know what to do with Michael Parsons in this process. When he got to Dallas, they were trying to make him alignment. The line back in the beginning. It took a while to finally figure it out. The difference is I think both J. J.C. Horn, and Patrick Sartan throughout the process

were considered kind of lock top 10 talents. If you look at what Sartan was specifically at Alabama, I mean, he checked every single box. Part of the reason that Carolina can talk themselves into Horn above him is that the press traits were so impressive that you can kind of, you can

convince yourself that there's a ceiling with him where I think Sartan's selling point, especially pre-draft, was more about the floor, which is kind of funny now because he's a cyborg. but I think that was the conversation at the time, if I'm remembering it correctly. I think that 2020 was probably a good example, a good reference point to draw back to, right?

And what you think about in that class is the fact that you have Sertan and you have Parsons, right, as guys who separated themselves from the pack once they hit the pros and everybody else, it's not that there were poor players in that draft, right? You would take a Jalen Phillips more often than you wouldn't if you knew what he would turn into once he hits the league, right? But you didn't, nobody was making that pick

with the thought that that was a, a guy that was going to turn into an all pro pro bowl level talent. And there's not a lot of guys. I think that you're going to see teams putting press conferences together saying, hey, man, in five years, we're going to be talking about resetting the market with this player. And for us as analysts, I don't know if I'm looking at guys saying this is going to be the top paid edge rush or this is going to be the top paid defensive back in 2028,

2009 when they're coming off their rookie deal. You look at the defensive players taken after that stretch in 2021. It's not great, man. 16 was Zayvon Collins to Arizona. 18, Jalen Phillips goes to Miami. 19. Jamin Davis goes to Washington. 21 quiddy pay to the Colts.

22, Caleb Farley to the Titans. 26, Greg Newsom goes to the Browns. Like, that's one of the hits in this group. Is a slot receiver or a slot corner who's played pretty well. After that, we got Peyton Turner, Eric Stokes. Greg Rousseau is kind of similar to Greg Rousseau went 30th. Just a guy who's been on the field and played. Odafay always.

was fine last year, but he's not somebody that isn't that upper tier of players at his position, Joe Tryon Shanka. So it is kind of another example outside of those maybe top two guys where it's a little bit diluted in the back half of the first tier into the second and third tier. And it's funny looking at that now, right? So some of those teams, when I think about this year in defensive prospects in a draft, the Saints need to go get another edge rusher because Peyton Turner didn't hit, right? The bills continued, went out and paid Von Miller because they weren't getting production

out of their edge rushers, you know, the picks that they have made at the edge position. Even the dolphins trained for Bradley Shub. Exactly. The Ravens going to get Clowny and Van Noy because Odafe Owe, while a great rotational player doesn't hit and give you the value that you're looking for right out the gate. And Joe Tryon Shainka is basically losing his reps to Yaya Diabi and the guys that they just drafted last year, right? And there's not a lot of clarity on how he's going to break into the rotation going forward. So, yeah, I think that there's a lot of that in this class. But I would say that makes it really interesting for the 2024 draft is this is maybe like the hardest line I've drawn in a class.

Or it's like after maybe pick 45, pick 50, you better have a very clear idea of a role you're trying to fit for these guys because you're probably not going to sneak into a third rounder that turns into a perennial pro bowl type of player. I think there's a pretty clear threshold in this draft on day two for where you can get a guy that you feel good about making an impact. and the rest of it is going to be depth and role player types. So the two guys, two of the difference makers you mentioned there at the top among your four are edge rushers. So our next question is from Nate Vertucci. So our next question is from Nate Vertucci. And he says, I'm interested in the edge rushers. The top guys seem to have fairly different skills and body types.

Maybe you guys could compare and contrast. He has another question about the guys after the top three. But we had an extensive conversation on today's show, Thursday's podcast, with Nate and Dane about Chop Robinson, Darius Robinson. So if you guys want to go listen to that, encourage you to do it. But we have not had extended conversations about LATU, Dallas Turner, Jared, verse. So let's go through those guys pretty quickly. You seem highest on Turner. And if he went eighth overall to Atlanta, you would understand it.

Why do you feel like Dallas Turner has a little bit of an edge over a couple of those other guys in this class? I would say, that's like a lottery ticket type of thing, right? You go and get an elite speed guy, a really bendy guy, somebody who profiles as potentially, being that high-end speed rusher, nobody can block him type, right? So that's why I would have him right, number one. I'm always going to have a soft spot for those guys. I think we've talked in different podcasts. And you talk about creating prototypes at edge rusher.

I know that that's your type of guy, right? That's definitely your flavor at edge rusher. I'm trying to get off of it a little bit. Like, Jared Versus is going to be an interesting conversation because he's the exact example of somebody that three or four years ago, I'd be like, oh, whatever, pocket pusher. I can find those guys. but I do think that the floor that can come with those players is really intriguing.

And I also think that Latu is another example of that. Like I think if you're talking about worst case scenarios with the guy like Latu, I can't get the Kalevan chasens out of my mind where these guys who aren't overly physical, you know, they're skilled. We're talking ourselves into that, but there's not a lot of power. So I've gone back and forth on that. I've tried to interrogate my own tastes at the position a little bit more than I used to because there have been some hits and misses with those archetypes.

Oh, 100%. I mean, I remember the look on your face when we did the star starter and bust potential last year. And I said that I thought that Will Anderson had maybe the highest percentage distribution as a star, right? And I know that was a long conversation we had about, you know, player profile and play style and how that projects out into the league. So I've gone through that same process. So looking at Turner, though, I think that the issue that's going to hang people up is, late breakout, right, for a guy who was a three-year starter, effectively, especially when you're comparing who he played next to for the first two years as a starter

in college looking at Will Anderson, right? A guy who's consistently popping in Dallas Turner was maybe a little bit more flash plays. So you're definitely going to have to kind of square whether or not this is just going to be a high variance, pass rusher type, right? Because he's a speed guy, are we going to have a year where maybe he gets 11 to 13 sacks and everybody feels good. than the next year is going to be four and a half and the pressure rate is going to wax and way in with that. I think for me, the reason why I'm a little bit more comfortable with Turner

and taking a chance on him is the way that he grew not just as a pass rusher purely this year, but what he did to grow physically as a run defender. That was probably the thing that popped the most. You know, going back and watching the Texas game early in a year, thinking about the first time watching that and the times of Texas was really trying to test the edge of Alabama and he's really putting that front foot down and setting an edge and turning the ball back for a guy who's 200 and you know mid two 40s low 250s probably at that point in the season that'll catch your attention right and then you see the arm link again you get those speed and explosiveness scores and then you're thinking oh there might be something here this might be a guy who is maybe

just a late bloomer um developmentally right and at this position that's worth taking a chance on if we were talking about you know a linebacker who breaks out late and and the rest of his tape is really up and down, I would be a little bit more hesitant. At this position, if you meet that athletic threshold the way the Turner does, and you had a breakout year, I'm a little bit more comfortable taking a pig swing

with the guy like that, and that's why I have him ranked ahead of a guy like Lattoon. Even if it's year three, characterizing that as a late breakout, he's still only 21 years old. And I think that's one of the most important contradictions or gaps for me between him and the other two guys that we're going to talk about here.

Because even if you like a lot to inverse, Jared Verst right now is a year older than Will Anderson. Coming into the draft, he's a year older than Will Anderson. So you have a guy in Dallas Turner who's two years younger than each of them. And sometimes when we're looking at players at this position, and you talk yourself into traits, traits, traits, traits, traits, traits, and they're supposed to be pass rushers. I always go back to the money ball thing where it's like,

well, if he's supposed to be a pass rusher, why doesn't he rush the past are good? There are so many guys who've come along like that. I mean, Trayvon Walker being the most recent example where there's just no pass rush production in college. Even though Dallas Turner, the best argument for him and the best rationalization for why he's the top 10 pick is pretty traits based, this is still somebody who had double digit sacks last year. He had 14 and a half tackles for a loss. And on a per snap basis, he was one of the most impactful edge players in college football last season, despite being top 30 in total snaps played among edge guys. That's what you want to see. So even if there is a lot of lifting being done by the explosion and some of those measurements,

you could still see it on the field. And that's why that's the bet I'd make, just because he's 21. The production's been there. And you assume his best football might be in front of him where some of these other guys that are 23 years old, are we worried about them being closer to finish products than a guy like Dallas Turner is going to be? 100%. I'm glad that you brought up Trubon Walker as a comparison piece, right?

Because so much of the conversation there was we're not drawing. we're not drawing from the data to tell us like, oh, there's a reason to believe that there's going to be a lot of growth here. That was a lot of, hey man, look at how cool these clips are. This dude blowing up lockers, right? And then you get the combine, right? So there's a lot, there was a lot more projection there than I think that there is with Turner, right? Like you said, we've seen it on tape. And I think even when it was a little bit more hot and cold and more flashes in the pan earlier in his career, you could look at what he was doing as a pastor and say, Okay, that wins in the NFL too, right?

It's not like a Chop Robinson by comparison. He's another really explosive guy, but you watch and it's like, a lot of this is just, you having a first step on a guy that's going to be selling me insurance in a couple of years, you know, and you're not a great run defender as a comparison piece the way the Dallas Turner is. That's why I'd want to go get that guy. If this was a top five conversation, then I would be pumping the brakes on it. But towards the back end of the top 10, this is maybe a guy you might even be able to trade back still have access to, depending on how things shake out with quarterbacks and tackles in the top

10 of this draft. If I'm Dallas, that's who I want to go get. Give me an opportunity to go get one of the physical freaks in this class and see if that works out, maybe more so than trying to take a high floor pick with the guy like lots who reverse. Look at Chop Robinson specifically, and it's a good name to bring up, contrasting him with Dallas Turner. Chop Robinson played 300 snaps for Penn State this year.

He had like 115 past rush snaps. and Dallas Turner was still, all three of these guys, were still more impactful on a per snap basis than Chop Robinson was playing half of the total snaps. If you're going to be a designated pass rusher in college, your per snap numbers have to be like what Bryce Huff does for the Jets. They have to be there for me to get excited about it. Exactly, because you're not adding anything else at 240.

So that's what gives me, that's what would worry me with the Chop Robinson stuff. It's like, yeah, maybe he's a DPR early in his career, but he was kind of that at Penn State. state and he still wasn't a guy who was dominating consistently on those reps. So that, that's my only thing with him. I mean, that was Boy Amafé when he was drafted, right? Was a lot of people saying, hey, man, the speed, the explosiveness, the pass rush, he can be a DPR, maybe you can grow that guy. And you look up a couple years later. And it's like, it just doesn't work like that for everybody. Especially if you don't have, you got to have eye popping production as a DPR

guy coming out of college in order to make me interested in your long, term prospects, right? And I just, I don't see that for a guy like Chop in the way that I do for Turner. I'm going to keep coming back to age. I think he's going to be, I think he's going to be under 22 by the time the draft happens, if I remember right. He's one of the youngest guys in this class. So that to me says a lot about, you know, where he's at physically, the fact that he just broke out. And I think that he can really turn a corner, been the edge in a way that even the guy like Latsu doesn't do all the time or, you know, all the credit that he gets for being a technician. And that's why he's first. And then a lot too to me would be number two,

because it's just hard to turn away from that level of production that he's at, especially over the last few years. That's where I am too with him. And we can talk about some of the pluses and minuses. The production is out of this world. He was one of the most productive, if not the most productive, past rusher in college football last year. You look at his hand usage. And it's not just that. I mean, it's, it's, it's more to it than just, it's, it kind reminds me of receivers with route running and some of the footwork stuff we get obsessed with. And it's like, I don't care about that bullshit. Like, you have to be able to put it all together.

And I think he's one of those guys. We talked about this Will Anderson last year. He's always moving toward the quarterback. Always. There's always momentum toward the quarterback. So it's a level of skill and being a technician, but he's also a natural pass rusher. But I do think that if you look at his testing number specifically, it does kind of bear out what sort of player he is.

The change of direction agility stuff is fantastic, but he's just not explosive when you compare him to even averse or a lot of the other guys in the NFL who turn into impact players. And when you combine that with the medical history for Latu, I think there's just a lot of complications there, even if, again, three, four years ago, he would have been exactly the style of guy who I would have said, you take him in the top 10 every single time. 100%. I love that you brought up wide receivers as a comparison, right? Because I exist in a coaching world. I follow a lot of the pass rush trainer guys. And I'm like, if there was ever a guy to be like the defensive version of Jerry Judy where every offseason you're just looking at clips

of a high shirtless, you know, working through bags and working his cross chop and all that. Lyonsu Latzu is going to be that guy 100%. And it is because he's a technician. And it's not just, oh, this guy understands how to work one move and then transition into the next. There is a genuine nuance that's uncanny for a guy when you're watching them coming out of college. The sequencing is fantastic. It's really, it's really eye-catching. Right. Like that's something that's undeniable. It's not just, oh, this guy knows a club and a rent. And it's not just, oh, this guy's got maybe a go-to move or two, that college guys just can't handle. There is that factor that you mentioned of he is always working forward. You know, the USC game is obviously the most obvious, is definitely the most obvious example of him just being a game wrecker as a pass rusher. But it's all throughout his games against top pack 12 competition is that this guy works his hands really well. for a guy who's tall, and I do think he has some pad level issues, which I'm sure we'll get to shortly, and some contact balance stuff that I do kind of have a little bit of question marks when you transition into the league

that I think that he'll have to address in his game. But when you just look at his understanding of how to work angles, how to set up moves, how to use his feet, how to change directions, that's stuff that it usually takes guys until they're halfway through their rookie contract to really get a firm grasp of and how it relates to their game. Latsu already has that in spades. And that's why, you know, for me, I think that that's a guy you can pick in the teams around the middle of the first round, drop him right in,

and you're going to get legitimate production, right? If you're Seattle and you've just been banging your head up against the wall looking for an edge rusher for the last half decade plus, do you want to bring a guy like Latsu in? Because you just know he's going to understand the, mechanics of getting to the quarterback. It's not cleanup pressures. It's not just high motor plays, right? There's a little bit of that in like a Jared versus game. It's like, I think that's a quality pass rush, but a lot of this is just the fact that you've got great defensive players

around you, quarterbacks to have to hold the ball or you guys are leading, you know, leading in the game and you've got a game script advantage where you can really just continue to work towards a quarterback and maybe get some cleanup sacks. There's a lot of quick pressures. There's a lot of understanding of how to set guys up for counters. early in a game and knowing where his mismatches are, right? That's really intriguing to me, and I would feel, I would feel good about him as a high floor guy. If there is a designated pass rusher that can hit in this class, I would say it's a lot to.

And I think that that might even sell short what he is as a run defender, because he's probably coming out as about average as a run defender on the hedge too. If there was going to be a reason that he wasn't at least a functional long-term starter in the league, what do you think that reason would be? To me, it's pad level and play string. You know, that contact balance, right? There are some guys, there are some guys that can work a move and then get up in the air and they're just so explosive the second that their feet hit the ground again,

they're going into their next move and you just can't block that guy, right? There are some guys in the NFL who are like that. I don't know if his play strength suggests that he can work to the degree. He can't be as nuanced and win, I don't think, in the league, the way that he does at the college level, because you don't see a low center of gravity. You're not seeing those. It doesn't play with great leverage.

I mean, you just watch his game and that's just not what it is. There's some bending where you're like, okay, that's pretty good for a guy your height. That's pretty good for a guy with your arm link. That doesn't rate in the, you know, guys who can really drop and get, you know, their center of gravity tilted outside of their frame

and still be able to work towards a quarterback, right? This is to me the important distinction between flexibility and bend and playing with leverage along the defensive. line because I think Will Anderson is a very good example. Will Anderson isn't the bendiest guy in the world, but Will Anderson plays with remarkable leverage when you watch him play. And I think Latsu is kind of the opposite.

The bend, you see it every once in a while, but flexibility is there, but the power through that flexibility, that's what leaves a little bit to be desired with him, I think. Exactly. It's not as consistent on tape. And most of the time did you see that kind of contact balance? I don't know if he's working up against guys that you would think of as being potential pros, right? So there is a little bit of that that kind of piques my interest in terms of, all right, if

working as a technician doesn't work for you, what else are you going to do? Can you be a speed to power guy? I don't know if that's who he is as a player. And that's a major question for me in trying to track exactly what he can and can't be as a pro, right? And that's where I think if you're going to go versed ahead, a lot to, that's where your sales pitch is, right? It's the fact that Burs can convert speed to power.

he maybe doesn't need to be as much of a technician because he is a really good athlete and you can maybe lean on that a little bit more. There are two things with Latsu that I think would lower his floor compared to a guy like VERS. One is that if you can't play with that power, your floor is actually lower than it is for guys who that's their calling card.

If you can play with power in the league, you'll at least have a role, even if your ceiling is limited. I think that's kind of how I would designate Jared VERS in this process. And the other thing with Latsu is the medical stuff. I mean, you can't discount it. the guy medically retired a couple of years ago, came back, played phenomenal football.

And if you're trying to paint the best case scenario there, a guy we've already mentioned on this show. That's what happened with Jalen Phillips. Jalen Phillips goes 18th overall. Jalen Phillips, when he's been on the field, has been a very productive player for the dolphins. That being said, Jalen Phillips is still a more explosive athlete than Latu is. So there are just little tiny nuances and differences here that I think are worth taking into consideration with his floor specifically with Latu. With verse, though, I do think the power and explosion he brings to the table,

even if he's never going to be a double-digit sack guy because he is missing some of that nuance and refinement to his game at 23 years old, he is still going to be somebody who is a useful player for you because of those traits. I agree 100%. We were texting back and forth before the show, and you shot me a question of where do I see him comping, you know, as a pro. And for me, Trent Cole was the name I thought of, as a guy who can be relentless as a pass rusher, right?

The thing with Trent Cole that made him, you know, as effective as he was for as long as he was effective, was the fact that he did have an explosive first step and could convert speed to power, right? And that would be, you know, if I'm Jaredverse, that's the kind of guy I want to aspire to be. I think that that's something that he can do

as well as being a good run defender, right? There's so much of them that's like, sacks off with Will Anderson, right? Like, it's not the premium level of talent. It was the only thing I could think of. And I was wondering if I was just not having enough perspective or not going back deep enough in some of these classes to find a comparison point. But they're the exact same size. Okay.

And I just think that some of those ask, Will Anderson's, it's a little bit more flexible than versus. But the selling point, I think, is similar when it comes to the power is the number one thing you're looking at. With Will Anderson, I think there's a flexibility that turns him into a special player. again, talking about that leverage that we talk about, verse to me is just more of a straight line explosive athlete. He's incredibly powerful, but he's, if you took Will Anderson and just turned down some of the dials, that to me is what Jared Verse kind of looks like.

Like to me, Jared Verst is a little bit more of like, he fits better in the, I guess, two decades old version of the Legion of Bloom guys. So you're thinking about your Gus Bradley, Dan Quinn guys, where, hang out, You're going to be a linear athlete. We're just going to cut you loose. Go get after the quarterback, make plays in the backfield,

stop the run on the way to the quarterback. Whereas Will Anderson, I think fits a little bit more of the modern context of, hey, we just want to continue crushing the pocket. We believe in your contact balance. We believe that you can sink your hips, even if you're not turning edges as a bender all the time, because of your force, because of the way that you convert your speed,

you're going to affect quarterbacks more often than not. That's what keeps verse from being that top tier one guy. I love his athletic profile. I love what he is as a run defender. I think that you've noted some of the same things that I have in terms of the reasons why I love him as an edge rusher. And I believe that his ceiling probably is even higher than maybe even I'm considering because you don't see that pure hand fighting. You don't see the pure bendiness in his game right now. But he's got something to him.

Like the cross shop is good. He uses his hands well enough that I'm bullish on what he can be. as a player, but I don't think the tool bag is quite deep enough and he's quite bendy enough for him to be a double, like a dozen sack guy in the NFL. That's hard for me to envision. I agree. I agree. And I think that for me, again, if you're trying to sell me on verse over Latu or him being the second best edge rusher in this class in general, it's going to be that first step and that conversion of speeds of power that makes him like, what's his name in Pittsburgh, highsmith, who plays opposite to T.J. Watt, right? A guy who,

is just constantly crushing pockets. You're going to have a couple breakout years here and there, but more often than not, this is just going to be a consistent 12, 13% pressure rate guy who gets a handful of sacks and is just a nice rush number two, rushing number two type of guy in your defense. It's hard for me to imagine him failing.

I don't know what the ceiling is, but it's hard for me to imagine Jared Verst not having a role in the league for a long time when you think about those traits and what he does well. Exactly. And it's funny when we were talking about comps for him, earlier today. The first thing I thought was like, there might be a little bit of Robert Mathis in his game.

And then I went back and watched Robert Mathis, and I was like, oh my God, I had you so far a mistake. Mr. Mathis. He was so bend. He was so bendy, though. That's, that's the difference with those guys. Right. And I do think the math is, the power in Mathis' game, I think is a little reminiscent of what you've seen in Verse, but that is the difference, right? Is that Mathis could really bend in a way.

That was rare for a guy at 270 pounds to begin with. And then you think about that with Versa, while he does have a lot of size, and he does have a lot of explosiveness. I think if he would have ran the three cone, you would have probably seen the time that confirms the fact that he's not really that been through contact type of player.

And I think that that's what lowers the ceiling, but again, this is a high floor bet, and I feel very comfortable with what his floor is going to be. And that's probably why I think in every mock draft I've done, I've probably dropped him to New Orleans somewhere between, you know, where they're drafting or if they were to trade back, because that's such a safe pick

and a guy that will fit that type of defense. There's a drill that past rushers do where it's literally is called running the hoop. It's like a hoop you put on the ground and the whole goal was to run around it as close as you can and get as low as you can. Robert Mathis, I think, was putting his ear on the ground when he was doing that, when he was doing that drill

in a way that very few guys potentially can. Our next question is from Blaine here. He said, as you may have heard, Aaron Donald retired during the first week of free agency, which leaves a huge void and it was already a very young Rams defense. At the core of Blaine's question here is, what are the Rams going to be able to do?

to replace Aaron Donald within this defense? He said, is it even possible to recreate an Aaron Donald by taking two or three guys later in the draft? Would you rather take a pass rusher on the edge like Latu or Chop Robinson? Or would another option be potentially taking a player like Byron Murphy in the first round instead and getting that top-tier defensive line prospect

even if you're making a sacrifice on the edge? So I think at the core of this question is, how would you recreate or try to recreate Aaron Donald, if you're the Rams and you're looking at the talent available in this draft. Here's what I would say. If I were less need and a scout walked into my office and say, hey, I've got the guy that's going to help us replace 99. I'm firing him on the spot because he clearly does not understand the gravity of what Aaron Donald was. You don't replace that guy.

I would say as far as the roster building goes, this is actually an excellent opportunity. for the Rams. I think that no matter what this draft was going to be very defensive-centric because they've poured so much resources into making sure that Sean and the offense and Matt Stafford and the offensive guys can really rebuild. And our new identity, I guess I can't say rebuild, but build a new identity for itself. I think that now that they've got some draft capital back in consecutive drafts, this is going to be the year they were going to take a lot of swings on this side of the ball anyways. But to answer directly, if I'm less serious, need. I'm going to take a more traditional rosterville.

There's no, it would be a fool's errand to think that the only way that we could be successful defensively is if we go get the best pass rushing interior linemen that has ever existed again, right? That's, that's foolish. I don't think that anybody should reasonably try, you know, shoot for that. Um, so if I'm approaching the draft for them, I'm looking at it more as like, Dr. Strange outcomes, right? What's available at 19 versus what we think we can get later in the draft. So you kind of want to stay a certain baseline with what's available on day two first, and I

think that that will kind of inform what you can do on day one. I think guys like Tevondre Sweat, guys like Chris Jenkins, guys like Michael Hall Jr., Oregon kind of has a flexible defensive lineman, detackle, D-N type, and Brandon Doorless. Those are guys that I see is like

day two, top 60 to 70 picks, where you might, it might make a little bit more sense to try to go get that guy and play him three technique. I talked with Jordan Rodriguez on 11 personnel earlier this week, and she mentioned that Kobe Turner might be playing the nose full time, right? And that's a fascinating thing to think about because now you're really saying that you're looking for a three technique specifically now. So that would be interesting to me. And I feel like if you can go get a Chris Jenkins,

a Michael Hall or a Brandon Dorliss to go be part of your rotation, I think you'd be happy with that if you were less need, and you'd probably rather spend the number 19 pick on an edge rusher or a corner instead and continue to try to build that defensive backfield, continue to try to build upon your edge rush with a premium pick because you're not going to get another opportunity in this draft, in my opinion, to get a high-impact edge rush guy or a high-impact coverage guy. That's a really interesting way to think about it because my first thought is, could you talk yourself into Byron Murphy being the best pass rush piece available to you at 19 if the top

three edges are already gone. But in your mind, even if that were the case, it's still going to be harder to find an edge player that compares to even the second tier guys compared to what it would be like on the interior where you might get somebody within spitting distance of a Johnny Newton or a Byron Murphy in the 60s or 70s. That's really where I'm at with it. I get that. You don't want to be, I like, so like take another Oregon prospect, Kyrie Jackson, tall guy, pretty good linear athlete, can be physical at the press. point, you might like a guy like that, but you're not drafting him with the hopes that he turns into a number one corner, right? I don't think it shows enough tape to suggest that

that's who he is. Versus, because this is such a tackle, wide receiver quarterback heavy draft at the top, there might be an opportunity for you to get a Cooper DeGine at 19. There may be an opportunity for a guy to slip like a Nate Wiggins or maybe a Tarian Arnold slips. You know, you never know how these things play out depending on trades, which ones do or don't happen, and how a shape-s up the draft board. And if a guy like a guy like that, Like that's available at 19. To me, I think that you would be missing a team building opportunity there to not get a young guy with the ceiling as high as some of the ones I named just because you're thinking about replacing Aaron Donald. Right. That to me would be, I think that would be a missed opportunity.

I wouldn't say that it's wrongheaded. So look at Byron Murphy and say, hey, as a pass rusher, that guy's so pure. He's a force of nature. We know what to do with forces of nature on the defensive interior. I can understand the thinking behind that. I just think that that might be, that might come with a little bit of buyer's remorse when you think about continuing to build a healthy defensive roster going forward. And the same at edge, right? If Latsu slips, which is entirely possible.

If Jir reverse slips, which is entirely possible and that guy's available at 19, I think it makes more sense to go take a swing on one of those guys, even as high floor prospects, and saying, hey, we're going to fortify other pieces of our defense and just use more veteran guys or maybe take later. slings on rookies, our young pieces later on in the draft on day two to help fill other roles that we might have open at the time. They have two third round picks, so they do have some ammo in that range to potentially try to pick off a couple of those guys. The Rams are number two in the NFL in cap spending on offense this season. Not surprising at all. Matthew Stafford's on a huge cap hit this year because they didn't restructure his deal.

They spent a shitload on guards. I mean, they're spending a lot of money on that side of the ball. defense, okay? They're 31st right now. They have $63 million allocated to defense in 2024. 25 of that $63 million is Aaron Donald's dead cap hit right now. So if you look at the players actually on the roster, we're looking at $38 million for the Rams.

The next closest team in the league is the Broncos at $64 million. And I would tell you, I do not feel the same way about the Broncos. defense that I feel about the Rams defense right now. And that is remarkable. $38 million allocated to players who are actually on the roster. So if you're worried about or concerned about or curious about what the Rams team building priorities are, they're telling you pretty in a pretty full-throated way here. Yeah. There's going to be a little bit of yelling from Rams fans when like a Byron Murphy or Adonai Mitchell is available at 19. And you're thinking about making a super strength out of your offense,

and they pass on that to go get some defensive guys. I'm sure that's coming. But I think that they're built properly now to really go take swings on selling out the rest of their defensive roster with role players and guys who can grow and be longtime veterans for them going forward. This next question is from Moe in Germany, said this isn't player-specific, but bigger picture.

We talk so much about how few true difference makers there are with offensive line coaches. And Corner seems to be a crapshoot every year with positive and negative surprises materializing quickly. And therefore, it seems like a hard position to evaluate and develop. Is there a specific reason

why this position, especially seems so volatile for draft prospects, and why there aren't any secondary coaches that get publicity as difference makers in developing players in the same mold of offensive line coaches? That's an excellent question.

Very good question. I'm telling you, our international listeners ask the best questions. Uh-oh, when you sent the document, that's probably the one staring at trying to figure out how I want to attack it, especially as a coach. I don't know. I don't know if there's any one answer that would encapsulate all of it.

I think that, A, this is a hard position to develop in general because of the athletic ask of guys playing this position, right? There are just certain guys. You think about like a Tees-Tabor a half decade ago. We ran the four or six, and it's like... I was thinking about him yesterday because I was thinking about Kamari Lasser, just the guys that we've seen taking in the first. two rounds, you ran a four or six. So Teasbber has recently been on my mind. Lasseter is another good

example where it's like, hey, man, I love all your film. It all looks great. I don't know what you want me to do with this time, boss. I'm sorry, it's really hard to look at this time, right? So on threshold alone, there are only a select few guys that can really do the job at a high level. And I don't know, you never want to say that anything's innate. Like one of my things with football is that there's no such thing as a natural football player because it's also detailed. tail-oriented, especially the further away you get from the ball, you know, that mixture of athleticism and in tech meat. I think that, I think that now, what I would say now in the modern era, this is probably as good as we will get of development at this position, because

the ask is a lot less of, hey, man, we need a press corner who can go play cover one for us so we can play with eight-man boxes all the time, and you're going to have to go guard, AJ Green, and Randy Moss, and Julio Jones, you know, these guys who are taller than you, faster than you, and jump higher than you on a week by week basis, right? There's a lot less of that. It's a lot more soft zone or match zone in these different coverage principles that give guys relief in coverage. So I think that the baseline has been raised a good amount.

I don't know if it's a coaching issue, though, as much as I said, it's just the nature of guarded some of these athletes, right? It's the same thing in the NBA, right? We talk about NBA defensively. There are a lot of great athletes playing. defense in the league. But if a guy can shoot from 38 feet, there are no slide drills in the world that are going to make you good enough to stop that, you know? So I think that there's just kind of a, you know, a kind of shrugging truth to the fact that it's just hard to play that position.

And guys are being developed well. It's just that the threshold of what it takes to be an all-pro-level guy at that spot is almost impossibly high. I think there are a couple examples. I mean, what Dave Merritt has been able to do in Kansas City and how they've developed DBs specifically, but that feels like an outwire. Even with offensive line coaches, you can name a few. Munchak if he was still doing it, which seems like he kind of is with the Rams right now.

Bill Callahan, what Jeff Stoutland has done. With D.Bs, we just don't have that many. Obviously, the Seahawks had a great reputation for years and the ways that they were able to consistently pump guys out, but that's been a little bit more hit and miss lately. So it is sort of a void in the coaching world compared to even offensive line coaches, which there don't seem like there's a surplus of really

good ones there. Right. I would think, like I'm looking at teams now to try to think of what what comes to mind immediately. So Kansas City, I think, develops their DVs pretty well, but there's kind of a hyper-specificity there. You know, you talk about legarius need. Who's a Titan now, a lot of the conversation is not just age and injury history. It's, this was a guy that went from safety to slot to outside corner in one particular defensive context where a guy had a very clear idea of how to use this player. That might not be the case for the rest of his career now. You know, I'm an Eagles fan. I remember the non-be-awson law signing and thinking, hey, this is just one-to-one. Apple's say apples, man. Great corner over there means

great corner over here. And it was never the same. Isn't it amazing that that's how football scouting and how personnel acquisition used to work? Yes. Oh, you were good there. You must be good here. We'll pay you all the money that they won't over there. I mean, I say that, though, but the J.C. Jackson thing happened like two years ago. Obviously, there are some personality concerns with that. But I guess those mistakes still do get made. Yes, I was going to say New England, Bill Belichick is a great DB developer, but there's, again, a level of specificity there that is unique, you know, in comparison to the rest of the lead, New Orleans, same thing. They run their defensive area, a particular kind of way.

So I think that that's a big piece of it is that position, not only is there a high athletic threshold you have to meet, chances are the defense that you're playing in when you see a guy, make that leap from being a decent corner to a good corner, good to great, great to excellent. A lot of times that comes from applying that athletic ability to something very specific in a way that just does not translate from spot to spot. And that's why I think it's harder. It's a lot harder for a veteran DB to go from one place to another as a free agent and create the same level of production that a guard or a tackle or a center would if they left one

spot and went to the next. Let's get our next one here. Josh Siana says, I've seen John. County Newton moved down draft boards lately, whereas Byron Murphy continues to ascend. I understand Murphy's more athletic, but Newton seems to be the more versatile player. How much of a disparity is there between these two players truly, and what range do you expect both of them to be drafted? It's a great question.

I think in a lot of ways, this is just the interior defensive linemen debate that we just had with Dallas Turner and Laiatu Latu. You know, force of nature versus technician. You watch Drizan Newton, and it's like, you check all the boxes. play style wise. You've got the size. The hands are good. You know, he's playing a lot of odd fronts, which means he's going to go from playing on the interior to having a bounce of pass rush all the way outside to the edge. It's like, that's a difficult job to do. And you're moving those 300 pounds better than a lot of guys would. It's just not going to be the same kind of

force in nature effect that you see watching Byron Murphy put his right paw down the V of somebody's neck and dump him in the lap of a quarterback, right? And it feels like Murphy probably has two of those clips in almost every game where he is just walking guys back into the lap of a quarterback, right? So I do think that that's a lot of it. And I think that it's more so at this position and more so with these two prospects, I think in terms of value, you're probably more six in one hand, half dozen in the other, then there is between a lot to and a Dallas Turner, right? I think that there's not as high of an ask athletically at that position as there would, at the position of defensive tackle as there is on the edge.

So I would feel comfortable if the team went and got Johnny Newton around the same range of the team with Pick Byron Murphy. I also think at that position specifically, if you're going to be undersized, which both of these guys are, I mean, by historical standards, they're both under 300 pounds, they're not as long as most defensive tackles typically are. If you're going to be built like that, you need to play with extreme explosion or power and leverage.

I mean, the two guys that come to mind, remember that kind of the swing that happened, in like the 2013, 2014 range of this position was like the Gino-Ackins-Aren Donald's stretch. Gino-Ackins is one of the strongest players that has ever played in the NFL, just walking guys back into quarterbacks. And even a guy like Brady Jared is a phenomenal athlete. So in order to survive at that sort of size, you have to be an outwire in other ways. And I think that might be the consideration with Newton maybe compared to a guy like Murphy. Right.

Like, if you're asking me and flatly, if you're asking me which are the two of the better players, to me it's Byron Murphy because he just does bring that level of quick out of his stance. You know, the hand fighting, I think, meets just enough of the baseline to let you know that there is some detail to his game. Then, like I said, what he is is a power rusher, the way that he can move bodies in the passing game, whether he's being double-teamed. And especially when he's being, especially when he's in one-on-one situations, you don't get very many chances to get guys like that on the interior. I think for me, when I watch Newton, the way that his detail shows up, I think it's probably a little bit more in the run game, Ray, understanding how to take on double teams, how to manipulate teams when they're running zone schemes at them, how to manipulate, you know, teams when they're running away from them, how to play against gap schemes. There's a little bit more detail in his game in that way. You would probably get more plus value from him as a run defender than as a pass rusher.

And the inverse is probably true for Byron Murphy. So that and that's really where it's like a lot of that comes down to what role are you looking at. going to fill in your defense. I think for a lot of defenses, they're probably going to look at Murphy and say, hey, what we're really missing is an interior impact pass rusher so I could see him, you know, get in that bunk that we've seen over the last month or so.

Next question here is from Garrick McRitchie. Says, it's a Chargers fan. I'm curious in what Jesse Minter, our new defensive coordinator, is going to look for in the draft. Besides guys, he coached, obviously. Yeah, Garrick asked about guys new defense coordinators in a lot of places,

but we got a bunch of questions about Minter specifically. So I want to actually limit this. to him. As you look back on what he was at Michigan, and you watch a lot of college football, you understand that game. What sort of pieces do you think fit that defensive scheme that he's going to be bringing with him from Michigan to the Chargers? I would say, obviously, you know, I think the first assumption is going to be that it's going to look just like Mike McDonald's defense this past year in Baltimore because they've worked together, right, and they're both borrowing from the same long lineage of scheme that existed within the Ravens.

for however long. And I do think that there's going to be a little bit of that, right? To me, the hallmark of those defenses is versatility on the back end, right? Is really being able to build that defense back to front in terms of changing the picture coverage-wise, being able to, you know, kind of weave in between playing your soft, more vision zone coverage and your matchier playing tighter to routes versions of zone coverage, right? So to me, I think that to me that means still, you know, and I'm sure that Chargers fans will

be excited to think it this way is a lot of this is going to be built around Derwin James, right, being an eraser. And I think that we probably just did not see enough of that over the last few years under Brandon Staley, right? There was a lot of moving him around. There was probably not enough of putting him in positions where he can erase a certain piece of an offense, especially when it comes to covering tight ends and showing up as a run defender. So I think that we're going to see a lot of what we saw from Kyle Hamilton as a blitzer. A lot of what we saw it from Kyle Hamilton as a zone defender. We're probably going to see a good amount of that from Derway. And what you want to build around that is a high level of versatility across the board.

I don't think that they're going to be looking for number one corners, right? So while we, well, we can all assume that they're probably going to go trenches in the first round, if they do trade back and get some additional draft capital, I would be looking for them to go get, you know, trying to find guys that weren't Michigan. I've got like Michael Hall, right, who's an interior defense. Fender that A, fits a need for them because they need to continue to build themselves as a run defensive unit along the interior, especially after retaining both edge rushers, right? You can see a Michael Hall for them. You can see a Brandon Doris late day two for them.

You can see it to Vondre's sweat if you just want to get a guy who can eat gaps on the interior of the defensive line. I wouldn't be surprised if they got like a Kyrie Jackson, you know, a tall player can play outside, you know, you can mix up some different looks with. You have Andrew Phillips as a potential kind of like slot corner that you can do some things in zone coverage with. That would be interesting. Inish Ray Straw from Missouri is another guy who might fit the mold in that kind of way too. The same with Cam Hart, you know, with Kyrie Jackson as these taller guys who can play zone coverage on the outside.

The real interesting thing for me, and I can't avoid this, he's probably the best linebacker in the class. Because whether or not they go get a guy like Junior Colson, right? this is the franchise that needs to build up his linebacker depth for one and they need to get more quality play out of the position and it's kind of a necessity if you look at the way that the Ravens played as a comparison piece

that that team was built around the fact that they had Rochon Smith and Patrick Queen as a tandem. You know, you're going to need a tandem of backers and you can fit guys into different kinds of roles, right? You're going to need a plugger, you're going to need a guy who can coverbacks, tackle well out in space, right? Patrick Queen did a really good job of that

once he had Rokan Smith, and then you need a guy who can take away all those middle of field throwing windows, and that's what Roe was for that defense. So that's kind of interesting to me or the way that I'm interested in looking at it is defensive tackle, corner, trying to build depth at those two spots. And if you get a chance at a linebacker that can start filling one of those two roles, within the defense, you probably want to take a chance. It'd be really nice if instead of picking at 5 and 37, you were picking at 11, 23, 37, and then having a first round pick next year.

When you list off all of those positions, I think it's just really hard to look at this Chargers roster and not envision what it would look like, not with a rebuild necessarily with a guy like Justin Herbert, but with resources to chase guys at some of these very glaring holes

that still exist here. Exactly. I mean, that's where they're at as a franchise. This day was always coming, right? They're at that hard pivot point. Quarterbacks on his second deal, got some expensive veterans, still at premium position.

You've got to start, you know, pivoting by bringing in young impact players that are cost controlled, especially at those high value role position spots like defensive tackle, like safety, you know, obviously they're going to have to attack wide receiver and tackle at some point in this draft. And the truth of the matter is that this is probably a two offseason project. Absolutely. They're not a long way to go. So not a one offseason at that least.

So I would not be surprised if they try to go build up the spine of this defense as much as they can, and then maybe go get premium positions later or at a later date, or maybe next offseason, if needing. You're talking about the way that they built the corner room or would build the corner room, not chasing high value guys. Signing a guy like Christian Fulton is exactly what the Ravens would do, right? If the guy like that who had some pedigree, we saw some flashes, it was really uneven, you're buying the biggest dip you possibly can.

I mean, I can't imagine against the cap this year, Christian Foll. Bolton is making, this is very good podcasting, $2.8 million. So that's exactly the type of thing that you're trying to chase. That's how the Ravens built their cornerback room last year, other than Marlon Herfrey. It was Ronald Darby, Rockia Sin. I mean, these guys who are just one-year veteran stopgaps, can we piece it together in the best possible way? And that's kind of what a move like Fulton says to me. Last one here, somebody you are very high on.

And even though we've mentioned his name about 20 times on our shows over the last couple weeks. It's mostly been as a joke. This is from Ryan Weaver. He says, would love to hear Deonté give a comp of who he thinks Cooper DeGine reminds him of. I feel like he gets put in a different bucket than most top cornerback prospects. Because of that, I'm having a hard time picturing what his play style might resemble in the league. Would love to hear a comp or just talk about how he might be best utilized. I really wish this is, and maybe this is hipster of me, I really wish that I could come in here and say something that's not like Jalen Ramsey, right? Because it's a tired comp.

Everybody's made it at this day. Or the people who were highest on Cooper DeGine have made that comp. And I wish I could say something different. But that's really where I'm at. I would say Jalen Ramsey. That's lofty, man. I don't think everyone's saying that. Jeline Ramsey, Marlon Humphrey, from a player profile perspective, is what I would say.

A guy who can walk in the door and you can say, if we put you at safety, you'll probably be a Pro Bowl safety. And if we put you at corner, I don't know if it's. maybe not Jalen Ramsey who could, you know, who at his best was probably the best outside corner in the league. And a guy who could play really well on the slot. I mean, arguably probably at his best, the best outside corner and slot corner in the league when he was at his best. Right. I don't know if he's that level of good, but maybe he's like a Marlon Humphrey, right, which is like a serviceable, more than serviceable, a really good outside corner. And a guy, you can drop in the slot and you can do so much with him as a run fitter.

You can do a lot with him as a blitzer. he's a great tackler. He can play zone and man coverage. I think that for a guy like him, athletically, he's so capable. And then you take all the details in his game, how well he plays to routes, how well he can pick up on route concepts as his own defender.

Obviously what he does with the ball in his hands kind of tells you who he is as a dynamic athlete. I think that there's so much you can get out of that guy. It's really been annoyed for a lot of reasons, talking not only amongst, like, media people, but being like an Indianapolis, couple of months ago and talking with NFL folks and asking about Cooper DeGine and they all just like strugglingly saying yeah that's a safety like wait are we watching the same football player

you know and all you know I'll push him on it and they just continue to come back to yeah all the corner clips are great you know he does play pretty tight to routes on the outside but yeah he's a safety and it to me that's been kind of bothersome because I do think that's a marlin humphrey level level of player if you keep them at corner where you can really build the rest of your defensive of backfield around a player like that. And obviously, yeah, the biggest aspirational would be Jalen Ramsey. The only difference between him,

Jalen Ramsey, and Mow and Humphrey that I would throw out just physically is length. It's just length concerns. Because with Ramsey, you got 98th percentile arm length, something like that. And Humphrey checks the boxes that you want to. But we've seen guys who aren't the longest players in the world, but have those

movement skills either develop into really strong players or are on the right trajectory. The guy I would come back to right was Derek Stingley. Derek Stingley is not overly long, but he has phenomenal movement skills. So you can still play corner if you don't have 33-inch arms in the NFL

if you can move like that and mirror guys like that. Exactly. And the guy's competitive as hell. Like I said, he's a good tackler, right? You know, another comp you might make is Trent McDuffie if he was normal size. You know, in terms of competitiveness, the quick twitch ability,

gray linear athlete, has a great understanding of how to play in coverage. I could see that as well. And that really is a guy who could probably walk in every offseason and say, hey, based on the guys that we just signed in February and March, here's where we're going to play you this year. And he could probably give you plus value at any one of the spots you see an outside corner slot or safety.

Well, that's the thing, right? Trent McDuffie has like comically small arms compared to most corners, but Trent McDuffie plays in the slot. So is there a world where that is the best version of Cooper DeGene, even if you do believe he can survive outside? Probably, probably because it does mask or it does protect him from the potential of maybe being a little bit more vulnerable out on the perimeter. He's so capable. I wish we could have gotten all the testing scores to really kind of confirm what he is as an athlete.

But what we see on tape and what you can ascertain from the way that he moves on tape, that's the guy who can be a high, high level producer. I mean, he tested it as Pro Day. I think it was a few days ago. the numbers that Dane got, 38.5 inch vertical, 4, 4, 3 in the 40. He did not do any of the agility testing, but I truly don't know if we're ready

for a white corner in the NFL. It's just a world that I'm just not prepared to step into, but it seems like we might be trending in that direction here. Oh, man, I'm glad that I'm unemployed because there are a lot of DEI jokes that I can make. On my timeline, that I certainly would never do. If I had an employer, I had to report back to. Well, you're going to get me fired as part of this process.

So I really appreciate that. I really enjoyed my time here at the athletic. And I enjoyed my time with you, sir. Always great to do this. We'll be doing it again very soon. I mean, we'll figure out something to do as soon as the draft is over. But it's great to have you back, buddy. Great to chat with you.

You know I love doing this with you. So I know this is not going to be the last time. Absolutely, man. I always love talking with you guys. Glad to be back on. All right, guys, that's all we got. As always, sincerely appreciate you listening. We'll be back on Tuesday.

Me and Nate doing our mock draft scenarios. It's the top five. We're doing the top five. And you know what? I can't tell if this is mean or it's throwing a bone to Panthers fans. I think instead of number one, because we know what's going to happen at number one, have you already talked about the Bears, we're going to talk about the Panthers at 33. I promise that that approach is not me twisting the knife.

It's just to talk about the Panthers as part of this conversation. So I think that's going to be the point. We're going to do five through two and then do a little bit of Panthers chatter on Tuesday. But we'll be coming to you guys, same time, same programming as we've done the last few weeks. Just a reminder, two things. One, if you have not gone to the athletic and read the beast yet or gotten access to the beast yet or gotten your athletic subscription so you can read the beast, please do that. It is the best draft product on the market.

The work that Dane puts into it is truly staggering. So please go check that out if you have not. One last bit of housekeeping, just a reminder. Me, Dane, Nate, coming to you guys live from Detroit nights one and two of the draft will be reacting to every single pick of the first three rounds over those two nights. One of my favorite things that we've done at the Athletic over the last couple years, we have an absolute blast doing it. It is so fun to just sit there for four hours and pull the string on Dane's back

and let him give you expert analysis on every single one of these guys. So if you have not joined us for our draft streams in the past, encourage you to do that. The plan right now is we're still going to have something for you. All right. It's an audio product in the feed the day after. So we're not forgetting about you guys, the podcast audience. But if you want to come join us for the video version of this,

which hopefully is going to look better, be better than anything that we've done in the past so far. We would sincerely appreciate that. So just keep that on your radar because we're two weeks away. I'm on the exact opposite problem that Bryce Young had last year where he had to gain 10 pounds before the combine. I got to lose 10 pounds before we do that draft show. So really looking forward to spending that time with you guys for now. That's all we got.

Appreciate you listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was the athletic football show.