The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Mailbag: Joe Brady out in Carolina, Lamar Jackson's development, Mitchell Schwartz's Fantasy O-Line & more

Episode Date: December 7, 2021

Time to open the Athletic Football Show Mailbag following some big moments from week 13, from Joe Brady's firing in Carolina, to the decision to go for 2 in Pittsburgh and more, Mitchell Schwartz is Robert Mays' guest to dive into your emails and voicemails + Mitchell reveals his starting Fantasy O-Line! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. Today is Tuesday, December 7th. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today, my good friend, Mitchell Schwartzvich. How are you doing, buddy? I'm doing pretty good. How are we doing today?

Doing all right. Doing all right. A lot of stuff to get to you today because it's kind of a jam-packed Sunday night show with Nate last night when we were recording. And I think that there's a lot of stuff that we didn't get to and wanted to. And, man, people came through. Everything I would have wanted to hit. There were questions about it. So it feels like this is going to be a great little extension of the conversation we had last night.

And with that, let's get to our first voicemail. Hey, Robert and Mitch. I'm Daniel from Charlotte. Unfortunately for me, I'm a Panthers fan. So I was curious to hear what you guys thought about the Joe Brady firing. It seems like there's a discourse between the national media and the local media. He's a very, like, creative play. and that's not something we've seen a lot in Carolina.

And it's hard to succeed with this offensive line and quarterback situation over the last couple years. But I also thought his situational and Red Zone play calling left a lot to be desired. So I was curious to hear your thoughts on it. Matt Rule has also just kind of made a skate goad out of a lot of guys. Like last year of Teddy Bridgewater, this year is Brady. I'm not really sure what direction this team is going. Good luck. Lots to chew on here.

So I got, it was funny, we were before, before the game started yesterday, or I guess after the game started, it happened at like 12.30 p.m. The news came down about Joe Brady getting fired. And I was surprised. I was very surprised. What was your first reaction when you heard the news yesterday? Yeah, also surprised and the timing of it as well. You know, you usually don't do that like halfway into a buy when you've already gone through the first week. Like I guess, you know, it seems like they kind of got to an impasse. I know there was a tweet or two about how much they wanted to run the ball and making sure that the balance was, you know, quote unquote,

or making sure the offense was quote unquote balance for, you know, what rule wanted in terms of runs and passes. But yeah, it's odd that like it took a week to kind of get to that conclusion because it usually just doesn't work out that way. You know, if you kind of know that, hey, we're leaning towards one to make a change, you make it when the buy first starts and you, you know, kind of let the next guys in line assume that role for that week. and then into the actual game plan week. So timing, very strange, very odd. Like you said, not super surprising. It happened right at the beginning of an NFL slate. So it kind of got swept under the rug a little bit.

But yeah, to the caller's point, you know, it does seem like a little bit of scapegoating. And I think there are a lot bigger issues in terms of what's wrong with, you know, the quarterback position there. It's, you know, they've just gone the wrong guys. And that's, you know, more of a front office thing. And I don't know how much power rule has. But, you know, they took on Teddy and then they traded for Darnold and guaranteed the fifth year without really seeing anything or, you know, having a reason to do it.

And so there's that interesting breakdown of like they're on the hook for like 40 plus million in quarterback salaries over these couple years. And like, you know, Denver's paying like two million dollars to have Bridgewater as a quarterback. And, you know, the jets got, you know, second rounder out of it or whatever it was. And yeah, it just seems much more like bag organizational, you know, process than it does. you know, offensive coordinator who isn't necessarily calling the right players or not maximizing the QB. And so that's where it gets a little bit tricky. And, you know, as we've talked about, it's hard to, you know, parse things out. But it does seem like that's kind of the root of it more than the true like X's and O's. I totally agree. And if you look at it, I mean, this is a team that

finished 17th in offensive DVOA last season. There's a reason that Joe Brady's star was rising. Obviously the year he had at LSU and then what they did with Teddy Bridgewater last year. I mean, this was an interesting offense. You know, they had guys that were producing At career high levels with Robbie Anderson and DJ Moore, they lost Chris McCaffrey for most of the year last year, and they were still a reasonable offense. Their offensive line had tons of question marks. And then you walk into this year and they move on from Teddy Bridgewater. They go trade for Sam Darnold. They bypass a quarterback in the top 10.

They do really nothing to upgrade their offensive line in a substantive way. You sign Cam Irving and Pat Elf line. It's like, yeah, imagine if they drafted Slater, you know? Yeah, whatever. There's so many different ways you could have gone with that. They went and got a corner, and I can understand thinking a really top-tier corner is a scarce resource. That's fine. But the moves they've made on offense, it just feels like a shell game at this point.

It's all moving around, and they can't even keep track of why they're doing some of the things that they're doing. And I feel like if you look at the offensive line in the state of it, even beyond the quarterback play over the last couple weeks, when Dennis Daly is your left tackle against the dolphins, there's really nothing you can do about that. I mean, the performance their offensive line put on against Miami two weeks ago, that's about as bad as an offensive line can play in an NFL game. So to put that on your offensive coordinator, even if you didn't like the mixture of runs and passes, it just feels like we're missing the point here. So now, over the span of, I don't know, it's December, right? So March to December is about nine months.

So in 21 months, they've moved on to. from Cam Newton, signed Teddy Bridgewater, moved on from Teddy Bridgewater, signed traded for Sam Darnold, signed Cam Newton, and fired their offensive coordinator. That doesn't seem like a really good recipe for sustained success. And that's what it seemed like with this team for a while. We've talked about it in relation to the quarterback position, but the moving target and the constant upheaval and just everything about it. It came on quick because the first like three or four weeks, everyone was

was like, oh, see, Donald's better. It's the, you know, Gase thing. And he got rid of Gase. And he was, like, leading the NFL on touchdown rushes after, like, three or four weeks. I think he had five or something. And we're like, oh, yeah, see, he got unlocked. And they're running, you know, a little bit more quarterback-friendly stuff. And he's able to keep the ball and run it in.

And he's looking good and completing passes. So it's not even that they went into the season. And we're thinking, like, oh, we're not quite sure about our OC. You know, they started out well, the first, you know, three or four weeks. And so this is, like, a one and a half month thing. that it seems like it just all of a sudden snowballed and now it's just like, well, we got to get rid of this guy. And I don't know that anyone was necessarily like blaming the team for schematics. I think they blamed the team for like bringing in the wrong guys.

And I guess you could then say like, well, it's X's and O's that, you know, haven't let them to have that success. But it just didn't seem like there was any semblance of that guy or that position being questioned. And so that's what made it as surprising as the time that they dropped the announcement. And so just kind of a strange firing in general. And then, you know, those other factors involved just makes it even that much wilder. I'll say this. Nothing that has happened over the last six months to a year has given me any more faith in the Matruel era in Carolina. I feel like the trust in faith I might have in that regime has been slowly eroding over time.

And I'm not sure it's going to be headed in the other direction anytime soon. Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, his star was definitely rising for a while there. and it seems like it's fading a little bit. And, you know, to me he's always going to be, I think, compared a little bit to the New York jobs because, you know, he had potentially was able to take those, but they weren't able to give him the power that he wanted and might turn out to be, you know, kind of correct on their part. So we'll see how that shakes out. And to the caller's point, you know, there's always someone else to blame. So you can say he's running out of people to blame.

But, you know, then it's the GM and then it's the next offensive coordinator and then it's the quarterback and then it's the GM again. and then, you know, as we've seen, some of these coaches are pretty adept at shifting any and all blame. So that is a never-ending cycle. Well, we'll see what happens next to who the next scapego it's going to be. All right, let's get to our next voicemail. Hi, this is Andrew from Baltimore. The ending of the Raven Steelers game was absolutely brutal. Do you like the Ravens decision to go for the two-point conversion and win the game in regulation?

In general, do you like going forward in that? that situation or do you like kicking the PAP to attend it for overtime? Thank you. We didn't touch on this much on the Sunday night show with Nate just because most of my energy that I directed toward the Ravens was pure disappointment and what the Ravens looked like against that Steelers team. So I want to dig into this a little bit. How do you feel about the decision to go for two in order to win the game at the end when you have that opportunity? Yeah, I like it in that spot especially. I mean, Harbaugh has subsequently said that his rationale is like, you know, we didn't have any corners. We didn't really have the bodies to, you know,

be successful in overtime. You know, on the whole, you'd probably say, well, Baltimore should be the better team. They've kind of looked better throughout the course of the year and, you know, Pittsburgh hasn't looked quite as good. So theoretically, they're the better team. They have the better kicker. Obviously, they got the better kicker on any team that's really ever played football. So they have, you know, that advantage going into overtime. And the flip side is, like, the coach knows his personnel. He understands like, hey, we don't have. have it. Obviously, it is literally a coin flip. And so if Pittsburgh gets the ball, you know, our personnel is pretty short-sighted. And then, you know, as the game has gone on, you lose

your best corner and you lose a couple other guys. You know, they really just don't know the personnel. So I like that decision, just try to end it. I mean, they had the right play. The guy was open. They just maybe don't leave T.J. Watt unattended and I force your quarterback to throw around him. But the play worked. I mean, the guy was open. It is a little bit funny in those situations, too, because, you know, people talk about hardball and the analytics and going forward on four downs. And they're saying, oh, well, yeah, he trusts the numbers and this and that. And it's come to find out, it's just like, no, it's kind of a gut thing. And I just felt like we didn't have the right guys to go into overtime.

And, you know, he said it wasn't necessarily an analytic decision. So it's always funny that, you know, some of that crowd likes to, you know, glom on to any in all opportunity to tooth their own horn. But the other side does as well. So I'm not like, you know, bashing analytics guys. It's just funny that like, there are evils on both sides of that. Yeah, yeah, of course. So like in that instance, it's funny that like, you know, the side is always going to be like, oh, yeah, see, like this is us.

And it turns out like it was for the complete opposite rationale. So I'm all for it. You know, we've seen, again, the clip of, hey, Lamar, do you want to go for it? And like certain things like that where he does kind of leave it up to his team a little bit more and he trusts them. So it's cool to see a coach that has, you know, faith in his guys. And also an understanding of kind of the general. roster construction and, you know, what his team is really up against in, you know, an overtime

situation like that. I mean, if you look at it, right? I mean, their season has been so strange. You know, they had that win over the chiefs early when the chiefs were not the team we're watching right now, especially on defense. I mean, they win that miracle game against the Colts that they probably should have lost. Then they crush the Chargers, which seems like sort of an outwire at this point based on what those two teams are.

They get beat up by the Bengals. And then they have that ugly, ugly game against the dolphins and then two ugly games in a row against the Browns and the Steelers. And I feel like we looked at this team early in the season as they kept rattling off these wins and thinking, God, man, Lamar has just been so valuable what they're doing and they've kind of overcome all of these injuries. But at a certain point, it starts to take its toll, right?

When you have offensive tackle issues and moving parts, when you're running out of cornerbacks, when you still, and we'll get to this, don't have total faith in the way. way your offense is structured. At a certain point, there's no shame in not being able to overcome that stuff. And it just feels like this Ravens team is just too beat up to really do much this year. And now losing Marlon Humphrey, it's like, all right, that's kind of where we are. Like, we fought the good fight. Who knows what the offseason may look like if we want to take a step back and think about the offense and just the way our plan is and what it looks like. But right now, it just feels like the battle is way too uphill for them.

Right. So last week we talked about, you know, kind of positional value. And aside from quarterback, you know, what positions are the hardest to find elite guys at? We kind of, you know, went towards offensive tackle and corner. And so this is a team that doesn't have their left tackle and their top two corners. So, yeah, I mean, you take any teams, you know, best offensive linemen, especially the left tackle and their best two corners. And it's going to be very difficult to play successfully for a whole season, you know, let alone the rash of other injuries they've had. So, yeah, there's no shame. And, like, you get so many guys injured.

You just don't have the same quality of players. Like, you talk about depth all you want. But depth is, you know, guys 54 through, you know, 60 on the roster. It's not necessarily guys 60 through 75. So it is taking its toll. And, you know, you're seeing it now. I think the weirdest part, obviously, is, you know, the past few games from Lamar. You know, the Miami game was a bit of a different situation in terms of all the cover zero stuff.

And that specific scheme we've seen confused quarterbacks for a very long time. Obviously, it's roots in the Belichick system and understanding how to, you know, play with quarterback's minds. And these last two weeks, I mean, that's just been weird for picks last week. You know, obviously they won. This week, I think it was either the first or second drive. He had that really odd interception in the end zone where you threw it up, you know, late and no one was open. And it was just like, man, that's a really strange decision.

Like you don't see that from Lamar, you know, almost ever. So something's definitely a little bit different there. And it could be similar to the chiefs earlier in the year where you get enough guys kind of out of place and, you know, things aren't going as well as you'd like them to. And you start pressing a little bit and you try to force the issue. So it's tough when, you know, the reinforcements aren't necessarily coming. You know, a lot of these other teams guys are getting hurt and it's, you know, two to eight week injuries. And hey, he'll be back at the end of the season. You know, Derek Henry could be back in a few weeks at the end of the year.

And JJ Watt posts cryptic stuff every now and again of, you know, he might be coming. And so you see stuff like that and just like for them, no, like all these guys are out for the year. The reinforcements aren't coming. Yeah, multiple running backs, an offensive tackle, multiple cornerbacks. Again, it all just starts to add up. I think there is one more thing that we should talk about with the Ravens. And our next voicemail is going to kick that up. Hey, Robert.

It's the depressed Ravens fan. I've never been on the fire Greg Roman fanwagon. But after this game in the constant. first down runs that go for the loss, go for a loss, and just not giving Bateman the ball ever. I mean, he wasn't even on the field on the final play. Just the shrivels with the offense? What should happen? I know Lamar needs to take over to the ball.

I know we need to stop for some Andrews, but I kind of think that Roman might be a problem. He helped support Lamar through the first few years, but I think you might have to kind of take the training mills off or something. I don't know. Bye. I want to ask you this. I'm curious just from somebody who has played on teams that are in the AFC playoff race, has watched the Ravens with some proximity for a while here and seen what they've looked like under Lamar Jackson.

How do you feel about their approach on offense and what the eventual limitations of it might be under Greg Roman? Well, I was always scared shitless of them because it's a team that can control the ball. They can do it in all facets. Obviously, we kind of talked about the analytics stuff earlier. They're not afraid to use all four downs and to, you know, on third and five, you know, run a play and get to fourth and two and then have a high percentage play there. And so you went into that game as the chief's offense knowing like, hey, we're going to have to put up a bunch of points. Like this is a really good offense.

You know, our possessions might be limited because they are more of a ball control system. And so had a lot of respect for him. You know, obviously the Lamar playoff like coming from behind thing was what was dragging over his head until this year. And then this year he has like three or four. you know, 10 plus point comebacks in the fourth quarter. At some point, maybe halfway through the year, Baltimore was like top three in neutral down pass rate. And so people were like, hey, see, so they are, you know, a totally different offense and they're throwing the ball more and Lamar's accurate and it looks great. And so I think if anything, Roman might need to go back

to what he was doing and maybe they, you know, push the boundary a little too far in terms of the throwing attack. But again, three weeks ago, Lamar was like, the front of the front of the, you know, runner for MVP. So it's hard to like we do these things every week and obviously you talk about it, but like stuff changes so fast and it's crazy like how quickly some of the perceptions can change because, you know, 10 weeks into the season, the Ravens offense on the whole look great, totally different schematically, you know, as versatile as ever because they still have all the power scheme stuff and they still have, you know, the heavy personnel and extra alignment, but they're also doing a little bit more of the spread and the true passing game that we wanted to

see from them and it just hasn't worked for the last three weeks so it is a little bit reactionary to you know kind of go off of that and say oh well the the OC is lost it and it doesn't quite know how to call plays and stuff but because you know guys are hurt and because they're struggling you know wonder if this is a time you just say okay we're going to kind of shift back to running the ball of that being the emphasis kind of those really high percentage play actions where they're you know got eight guys blocking but the two guys running routes are very very fast and they have the speed to stretch the field and open up these voids. Because that was always like the thing, me watching that offense, thinking like,

oh man, this is pretty awesome for the offensive line. Like everyone playing against them, all you do is like get ready for double teams and, you know, gap blocking schemes and like really physical run plays. And so you're bearing down on that. And then all of a sudden they're doing these play actions. And it's like there are play actions that are easy for offense alignment. And there are play actions that are difficult for offense alignment. Like those were easy for offense alignment because the defense is playing.

a specific way, you know, as a defensive end, you're taught, like, don't go past a certain point or don't go inside because Lamar's going to break in Tane. So, like, you can't do that anyway. And so they're getting these, like, really high percentage plays and easier plays on the offense. And so I do think maybe they start to shift back towards that a little bit. Obviously, it seems like Lamar is pressing a little bit and something's off on the passing game. So whatever they can do to kind of find that magic. And, you know, once they get back to, like, kind of their baseline, I think they'll start to, you know, mix in a little bit more of the past stuff that we saw from such a high volume earlier in the year.

This just feels like let's insulate ourselves here for the last month and a half of the season. Let's get to the end of the year and let's figure it out. I know they're probably going to make the playoffs, but I think from a big picture decision-making standpoint, let's not overreact to what's happening here. There's so many guys out. There's so many different things that, like you said, just pressing and just trying to overcome whatever deficiencies they have right now. I think it's hard to judge them.

It's hard to get a proper read on what's. actually wrong, what could be wrong moving forward. I think coming at any sweeping conclusions based on what they look like right now is dangerous. I mean, not only are you pressing because you're losing guys on offense. Your running game doesn't look like it used to. Your offensive line is dinged up. You're pressing because you know you have to score a bunch of points. Your defense can't really stop anybody at this point. I know yesterday the Steelers could move the ball. The Steelers can never move the ball. So I just think that there are so many different things to take into account here. And I think you're exactly right. You don't want to overreact to what's happening

right now just because I think we give them benefit of the doubt so often because we've seen them overcome that. And early in the year is a perfect example, right? They just keep rattling off these wins. It's like, all right, man, I guess the Ravens. But when it comes down to it, they just don't have the guys right now. And I think it's really difficult to make any sweeping conclusions, again, about an offensive coordinator when you're so concerned about what the personnel looks like.

Yeah, and they've shown they can win like the muddy games and they can have these comebacks and it doesn't have to be clean. And so, you know, as you're saying, I think we kind of trust, again, the infrastructure and the team and the coaching and the quarterback. And if things kind of get messy, like Lamar is as dynamic, a guy as we've seen in that position so he can make plays, you know, with his arm and his legs. And so I think it'll kind of bear itself out. I mean, we talk about it every week. The AFC is just crazy right now. Like there's five teams at like eight and four that are all tied for first place.

It's just not one team is separating themselves. I don't think they necessarily have to. I think that'll make for a very compelling playoffs when we get there because I don't know in these next five weeks that like a team is really going to ascend. And even if they do, you know, there's the six other teams that are all kind of in the same situation. So I think it'll be, you know, a really interesting finish of the season. And, you know, obviously we're all kind of waiting for Baltimore's offense to get back on track. And, you know, we'll see if they can do it in time for this playoff push. For me, they absolutely could, right?

And Lamar being as dynamic as he is, when you're in a game where there is no true. truly better team. And you look at the AFC in general, there isn't any truly great team. And it feels like Baltimore could be in any of these games. But I think when it comes to big conclusions and big decisions, let's understand that when this team gets to the offseason, they're going to be looking at a world where they get Ronnie Stanley back next year, Rashad Bateman's healthy the entire season.

J.K. Dobbins and Gus Edwards are back. They can do some tweaking along that offensive line if they want to. Hopefully they'll get Marcus Peters back. I mean, it's just all of these things where the 2022, two Ravens, I think, are going to look just fine, even if Greg Roman is the offensive coordinator, no matter what happens over the final six weeks of this year. Yeah, and he's one of the guys that has shown, like, he can run this kind of system and basically mold it around the personnel and the quarterbacks in a way that, you know, not many other coordinators have shown. Obviously,

there's a lot of stuff in college where guys have done that. But in terms of the NFL, having, this specific of an offense, you know, he's one of those few guys who's done it. He did it here. He did in San Francisco. And so I think they do have, you know, the right people leading the way in terms of him and Harbaugh. And obviously the quarterback's going to stay there. And I'd imagine, you know, he'll get that extension in the offseason. So we will, you know, definitely see what it looks like coming out. You know, as you were rattling off those names, I was just, you know, thinking of sarcastic little quips.

But like, yeah, it'll help to have all those guys back. Like all their best players are coming back. That's going to be nice. Yeah. I mean, even the Bateman thing. I mean, I understand that he's a first round pick. you want him totally incorporated into the offense. I mean, you know this.

If you're a rookie and you miss the first half of your rookie season, it's really hard to to understand how to properly use that guy, how to fold him into what you're doing, how to have him be completely comfortable with everything that you're doing. I mean, that is a huge learning gap to miss that exact stretch of time that he did, no matter what deficiencies you have on offense. Right. And especially in offense like that, which does utilize motion and different formations and personnel groupings and shifts and all that stuff.

Like that's probably the toughest thing for the receiver group, you know, especially as a rookie is knowing, okay, well, now it's, you know, 21 personnel on this guy. It's 12 personnel on this guy. It's 13 on this guy. And like figuring out which guy you are, where you're supposed to be, what the shift is, what the motion is, because, you know, you can have 18 different variations of trips formations. And there's like one differentiator, whether it's a tag or whether it's a slight version in like

trips or Trey or Troy or all these things. And now, you know, you're supposed to be two yards off the hash on one and the other you're, you know, two yards in from the numbers and the other you're splitting the alley. And there's so many of these little things that go into before you can run the route, figuring out where you're supposed to be, what the timing is, what the guys around you were doing. And then it's like, okay, I got to run the route. And now it's cover three. I know it's man coverage. Oh, it's cover two. And I'm supposed to do this instead. So yeah, those guys have a lot to process. And, you know, some guys have the ability to take all that in and just go on the field and it's natural. But for the most part, most people playing football, you know, you need to get

those reps to walk through it, to practice it, to go full speed with your quarterback so he can understand how you move where you're going to be, you know, get that chemistry and that confidence going. All right. Let's get to our first email here. Robert Kumar asks, my question is, what makes a run game creative? I like this because we say that all the time. So let's actually dig into this little bit. He said, I'm currently watching the Cabo Saints game. Besides the stupid Pollard run, the Saints completely shut down the Dallas run game. In contrast, the Eagles ran all over the Saints a couple weeks ago. It looks to me like the Eagles run game has a lot more lateral movement

and pulls a lot more players, my lot on Kelsey are outstanding on the move, whereas Dallas's run game is much more vertical. Is that it? What am I missing? His question kind of cutting down to it is, what makes a run game creative? And when we talk about a team like the Niners, and people say they have the league's most creative run game,

what does that actually mean? What does make a creative running game? I mean, when you boil it down, it's the run game that's the most successful. If it's successful, we just say, oh, yeah, it's really creative. They're doing all this cool stuff. And, like, you know, it can be all the same stuff everyone else is doing. But I think when people say creative offense and creative run game especially, it's, you're doing all the same stuff.

You know, there's inside zone, there's outside zone. There's gap schemes and there's man schemes. Like, it gets down to it. It's that simple. Now, there's a ton of variations of all those things. And so it's finding a way to do those in a manner that's a little bit different than everyone else. You know, everyone can run inside zone with two tight ends and inside zone from shotgun and, you know, power with a fullback and single back power. You know, the Broncos ran that with a lot of success against the chiefs the other night.

But finding a way to either disguise it or to motion to it or to know what coverage it's going to be. So maybe they're playing a certain coverage where you're able to, you know, box the safety out of the receiver. But I think it's like understanding kind of the all 11 on offense and how they piece together. And there is the element of pulling guys and running things that are a little bit, you know, less common. And so you've seen, you know, Frank Reich, we talked about like the Wham schemes and, you know, when Philly does that a little bit. And so when you see that, it's like, oh, that's cool. Like you don't see that very often. Or, you know, you see the Eagles are doing a lot right now with Mila and Lane of, you know, plays with tackles pulling and not just, you know, toss plays where they're on the front side and pulling into open space.

You know, everyone has those. Well, they're doing like the more power oriented gap schemes. where they're pulling backside and, you know, they're used as lead blockers were typically a guardwood. So that's a cool wrinkle. You know, Shanahan's doing all the same plays, you know, he's been running for his whole life, but now he's doing them with, you know,

juice check on the run in motion. And now he gets to, you know, run full speed and light up the guy Kittles blocking and then continue the safety. Where before, you know, that was a fullback or that was, you know, two tight ends right next to each other. Now it's happening, you know, on the fly and full speed in motion, like I said. So there's elements of like finding a new creative way to do all the stuff that everyone else is doing.

And obviously, again, it has to be successful because if teams are, you know, doing all these shifts in motions and all these other things and the run game sucks, you're just like, man, this guy's overcomplicating things. He needs to, you know, just simplify it and go back to basics. And so there's the element of like it has to work. But it is doing stuff that, you know, you don't necessarily see. And, you know, a lot of the times it goes with pullers. because for the most part, if guys aren't pulling, like for the casual fan, it kind of all looks similar, you know, insides of an outside zone, stuff like that. Like, it's just a wall of humanity moving and the running back kind of feels it out and finds his way. And so seeing, you know, a center and a tackle pull into space or, you know, a guard and a backside guard pull into space, it's like, oh, that doesn't look normal.

That looks cool. Or a guy coming in motion and being part of the blocking scheme. Like those types of things I think we think of as, you know, creativity because it's not, you know, static standard formations. and just like set hike and, you know, letting the offense roll from there. To me it feels like how creative are you in finding angles for your guys, right? And I think that you can do that in a few different ways. Like the Niners with the way they used Juchak now, having him get on on the perimeter and creating angles that way, that's new, right?

Like they're the way they attack the perimeter with some of their runs and how he's going in motion now is not just a two-back set as a regular full-back. That's a little bit creative. The Eagles, not only do they pull their tackles, they pull their center in a way a lot of other teams don't because of how well Jason Kelsey moves. And the other thing about the Eagles is, I mean, if you look at the Eagles run game compared to the Cowboys run game, the Cowboys are in 12 personnel all the time. I mean, they love playing with two tight ends.

So even if they're only, they're a one back offense, they're in heavy personnel a decent amount of the time. The Eagles, not only are running into lighter personnel with three receivers on the field, they also have an extra gap for their quarterback. So they're spreading things out and they have an extra player so they can leave defensive ends unblocked constantly. The Eagles run game is not only successful because of the different guys they can have on the move, their numbers advantage is more substantial than pretty much every other team in the league.

Because while the Ravens have Lamar, the Ravens aren't heavy personnel every single play. So that part is also, I don't know if you'd call that creative, I think that's just unique when you compare Philadelphia's running game to the other running games that we see in the NFL right now. Yeah, I think, you know, what you said about angles and creating angles, you know, for the most part, when you know coordinators are figuring out what runs to to run that week the running back gets to someone one-on-one if everything's blocked correctly so perfectly blocked play you know for the most part it's 10 offensive guys on 11 defenders and so there's one extra guy so the running back gets through and you know he has to beat that guy typically it's a safety you know if you can you try to scheme it up so a receiver you know comes in the box and blocks the safety and then it leaves the corner you know

typically the corner is theoretically the worst tackler on the team. So you'd like the one-on-one guy to be the corner. And so scheming that up where the running back can get to that guy in space to be able to make a miss and hit a home run, that's part of it. And then as you said, the angles to make the offense the line jobs easier because if I'm the right tackle and I have to double team with the guard, you know, up to the linebacker and say, you know, we're running to the right so the play's going outside my right shoulder. Well, if the linebacker I'm going to is already to my right outside my right shoulder. He's faster than me. I can run as fast as I want. And, you know, I'm not Trent Williams. I can't really get there. But if the coordinator is able to

figure out a way to scheme it up so that on that particular formation, my assignment in the linebacker is now, you know, in the A gap, even on the inside of the guardum double teaming, well, now we have an angle. So we can really hammer down on that defensive tackle, you know, block him together up to the linebacker. We have time to do that. No one's like panicked. You're not worried about it. and you're able to get up to him in a proper fashion. And so I think that's why having guys in motion, you know, as we talked about, like coming across the formation, becoming part of the blocking scheme is becoming, you know, more in vogue.

Because especially for teams that, you know, run zones, well, guys will be overshifted to the opposite side where the motion guy is. And so if you're snapping him, you know, again, say the same run where you're running to the right, then your fullback is actually like in the slot to the left. And at the snap, he's behind the left tackle. the defense hasn't fully adjusted and moved to the opposite side of the formation because he's ending up, you know, over the tight end essentially. So I know we're getting a little, you know, technical here. But, you know, building in, you know, angles in that manner is creative. And if you're able to do that, you give your guys a better chance for success. And then again, that success then makes people think you're creative as well. So it's kind of this cool cycle. And you guys are really pushing the boundaries. Because as you said, like, there are the teams that, you know, focus on the heavy stuff. And they have to find a way to pop a guy free somehow. Typically, it's just like, well, go out, muscle him and, you know, we'll make sure we'll

pull a guy around and try to trap someone out. There's the teams who are facing all that cover two stuff in the light boxes and figuring out how to, you know, kind of utilize their advantage of numbers to their advantage. And it does seem like Philly is doing the best job of doing that, having a quarterback that can run, and then also mixing in pullers and different schemes and, you know, kind of personal packages to make that happen. Yeah. I mean, I think that if you look at the Niners, like there's a reason we talk about them when we have this conversation all the time.

All of those motions that they're doing. They're not just doing them to do it. I mean, they're doing them to create angles for guys. It's to move people on defense or if the people on defense are going to stay static while your guys move, then that's creating angles for you. So, I mean, they do the best job of it. I think that that's why we spend so much time talking about it is because the Niners don't have the Eagles offensive line, right? Like Trent Williams is a great player. with the Niners is their O-line is not that great in general, especially with like McGlensie hurt. And so this isn't like as good of an offensive line as Kyle's had. And so the fact that they're able to do what they've been doing has been impressive. Yeah, exactly. I mean, the Eagles, for as much as they're creating advantages for their guys, Milata and Lane are monsters in the run game right now. I know they don't have Brooks, but they do have several really good players.

And Landon Dickerson's a rookie, but he's very big and physical. I mean, they have guys there. So I think that's kind of another advantage that they've kind of created for themselves, not on accident. All right. Let's get to our next one here from Vaughn Allen. He said, you mentioned Jordan Hicks in the podcast today. Not only did the team want to trade him, he's talking about the Cardinals. He then was asked to take a pay cut to not be let go.

He gives a couple other examples. Robert Alford, Marcus Gold, and guys that have maybe taken a little bit less money to come to Arizona or stay there. So my question is for Mitch. From the outside, having players that are willing to do those things, seems like it suggests a good organization. But how does it affect other players in their locker room? Does it really have an impact? Do players want to live up to that example?

Are those guys respected for those decisions or are they looked down upon? Does it matter at all or is it matter if a team's winning? That's all that counts. I'm curious about this. When guys take less money or when guys seem to make those sacrifices that may be people in the media laud, how does it typically go over in the locker room? I mean, typically you're kind of bummed that they had to take a pay cut. And so you're like, oh, man, like it sucks that, you know, he was supposed to make, you know, two million and now the team's forcing him to take a million and a half or whatever the numbers are. You as a player, you know, want to make the most that you can individually. And you also want your, you know, friends and teammates to make as much as much. It's like, oh, that sucks for him. Like, you know, he's not going to get paid as much and he's going to have to do, you know, the same job. But that's kind of like a one time thing. And, you know, that transaction happens. And you kind of think about it in a process.

it and then you don't really think about it the rest of the year. In a situation like that, if the guy took a pay cut, now he's playing a lot and becomes one of the focal guys on, you know, the defense or the offense and now he's making two million and he should have been making six million and, you know, his role is different. You know, you're kind of like, oh, well, I hope, you know, he can go back and, you know, negotiate and be like, hey, I actually overperform what you expected. Like, can, you know, I get a bonus or something? You know, teams typically don't work in that way. It's like, yeah, we'll give you a bonus. And then we'll add two extra years on so you can ever hit free agency. So it always kind of works out in the team's

favor because in that instance, you know, for the most part, they have the leverage. And so they come to you and say, hey, we're going to cut you if you don't take a pay cut. You get offered, you know, say the, you know, six to two million dollar situation. They can cut you. They don't owe you anything. They say, hey, we'll pay you two million with incentives to take it up to four million. And you then have to sit there as a player thinking like, okay, if they cut me, is anyone going to pay? pay me at least $2 million to make it, you know, worth it to not take the pay cut. Do I want to move? Do I want to change teams? Is it, you know, going to be good for my family to, you know, move cities? My kids are in the school district, you know, all these things. So it sounds good that like,

yeah, guys will, we're willing to take the pay cut for the benefit of the team. You know, sometimes it is truly for the benefit of the team. It does seem like in this situation, he's a great guy and he's a leader and, you know, he wanted to stick around and be with his guys. Sometimes it is just a business decision and you realize like this is still the best chance for me to make as much money as possible. But the guys who take in a stride and do it right and, you know, aren't bitter and they're not, you know, bad guys in the locker room, they do get more respect because, you know, you like to see guys who, you know, respond to, you know, adverse situations and, you know, put their best foot forward. You definitely know when, you know, certain players are, you know, wanting a contract or

they think they're outperformed and, you know, all they do is mutter about, oh, I'm so underpaid or all know they're only paying me this much and you know blah blah blah so guys kind of like chatter about their you know contract situations and about other guys situations so you're kind of aware of what guys get paid and if people are you know mostly very underperforming their salaries like that gets talked about a little bit more but in the situations where a guy you know takes a pay cut and then overperforms there have been times where you know you go up to the guy you're like you know hey is your agent talking to them to try to get a bonus or whatever so all those things kind of exist and it's definitely good on the whole for the team to have, you know, a guy who takes the cut and is there and is a leader

successful, you know, shows the guys what it's like to be a true pro and, you know, hopefully gets rewarded for it in the back end. Are there guys that you played with that you watched do that and that garnered respect for it because of it? Oh, yeah, for sure. And, you know, like last year, Mike Remmers, I mean, he signed to be a backup, you know, I get hurt in week six. He plays the rest of the season. And it's like, all right, well, you know, he's been the starting right tackle for 10 weeks. like it would be cool if he was able to get rewarded for that. I don't remember what his pay or incentive structure was, but that's a situation.

It's like, oh, that would be nice to get rewarded for playing more than the team expected and playing at a high level. I think Anthony Sherman took a pay cut either last year or the last couple of years. And it's a position that he didn't play too many fullback snaps. He was kind of more of a special teamer. But everyone liked him. And he was a good guy in the locker room. And so in those situations, it's like, ah, it sucks that he didn't play.

had to take a pay cut, but he wasn't there, like, bitching about it or, you know, complaining. And so, you know, he handled the right way and just like, yeah, you know, that's the case. I understand it. And, you know, let's roll. All right. Let's get to our next one here from Terry Kelly. He said, I wanted to get your thoughts on Cam Hayward as a potential Hall of Famer. And last night's podcast, Robert, you mentioned Andrew Whitworth having a case as a four-time pro bowler and two-time all-pro pro.

Cam is also a four-time pro bower and he's making a strong case for another all-pro season. He's tied for second among interior line of six and a sex and has 10 TFL. and seven PbUs as a defensive tackle. I just feel like he's about as underapped as it gets for a two-time All-Pro. I'm thinking about the Warren Sap tweet saying, who's 97 regarding his picture in a promo for an upcoming Sunday night football game a few weeks ago? But he's probably also the second greatest Steelers defensive lineman ever after me and Joe Green. Just wondering your thoughts, especially yours, Mitch, as an offensive lineman having to play against him

on what he needs to do to get consideration after his career. Even as a Steelers Homer, I don't feel like he's quite there yet. I feel like a third All-Pro selection can bump him up to being recognized as the second best defensive tackle of his era after Aaron Donald. It's a very comprehensive question that I sincerely appreciate. So I'm wondering, as someone who has played against him a bunch, what was his standing just among other players? It just feels like he's a guy that players in the league might respect more than the general

public does. Yeah, so early in my career, like the first year or two, I think they switch sides a little bit more. And so, you know, on any given play, depending on the formation, I think it was more of like a strong and weak side thing. Or at the time, they had Kiesel and he played more over the left tackle and Cam played more over the right tackle. So I had to go against him and it wasn't very fun.

We talked about the all Justin Smith All-Stars that give you a long day at the work or a long day at work. He's on that list and we definitely knew about it. And then there was a point, you know, definitely by my third year where he flipped and he played like predominantly over the left side. I think he's been there ever since. And so I was like, yes, like this is awesome. you go into the game and you're prepared for him and it's like nope he's playing the other side and

you know this is great for me so that was a guy that i didn't want to face he's super strong he's really good um he's tough to play against and i have no shame saying i was very happy to move to the other side and you know i didn't have to block him every single play you know of course they still had you know to it on my side and you know when i was young they had like jason world's who's a pretty good player and then um they got some other guys so you're always facing a good TJ Watt eventually. Well, yeah. I mean, luckily I was out of there by the time he got to town.

I don't have to face him twice a year. But yeah, he's a guy I didn't want to face because he's a good player. He's strong. He brings it every single play. In terms of the Hall of Fame stuff, I mean, it's hard to know. I mean, you think a guy like that would end up having a little bit of a boost just because of like the family name and the ties. And so, you know, maybe his, you know, pro bowls and all pros aren't quite what you

think of a Hall of Fame or at least at this point. but you hope that, you know, I'm sure he's going to play a few more years. I think you just sign another extension. You know, he's almost getting more popular, you know, the last couple of years. And so I'd hope he's getting more of like the all pros and the pro bowls that you need to get in the Hall of Fame. You kind of need those counting stats. So we'll see where it goes. You know, he's been an awesome player for a really long time.

You know, it's kind of been JJ Watt and Aaron Donald in terms of what guys think about for kind of the gold standard of the D-line position. and he doesn't do it in that manner. He's just like brute force at all times and super strong and just like demolishing guys. So I think he doesn't have the flash of, you know, kind of those top guys that we think about. But in terms of production and ability to do it, you know, he's up there. I think it's going to be tough for him just because of some of the other names, right?

So if you look at the all-decade team at defensive tackle, the four guys are Gino Ackins, Fletcher Cox, Aaron Donald, and Domican Sue. Gino Atkins's numbers are wild I mean he was getting eight, nine sacks a year His defense tackle for a while I mean he's somebody that at his peak was Crazy dominant I mean I remember that 2012 season he had 12 and a half sacks

But it's not like it was a flash in the pan for Gino Atkins I mean you look at some of these other years 11 in 2015 9 in 2016 9 in 2017 10 and 2018 Gino Atkins has 75 and a half sacks in his career So it's not like he was a one or two year blip I mean I know that we faced him twice a year Yeah he's really really Good. He's fantastic. But it's when you look at it's like, all right, that body of work is pretty

impressive. So Cam Hayward was drafted in 2011 draft. Fletcher Cox was drafted in 2012. So they came in essentially at the exact same time. I think you can make an argument that at his peak Fletcher Cox was probably a little bit more dominant than Cam Hayward was. But over the course of their career, it's probably pretty close. Who do you think has had a more impressive career? Indomacan, Sue, or Cam Hayward? Yeah, see, that's a tough one. I mean, I'd probably lean Hayward just because I faced him more often. And whenever, I mean, you face Sue, you know, the past few years, especially, he's been more of, you know, a power guy and we all know how strong he is. But like, I would say Hayward's, you know, the strongest defense alignment. It has been for a while,

you know, Sue's right there. But Hayward seems to be a little more, I don't know, if reliable is the right term, but he kind of brings it more often. You know, and Sue's bounced around a little bit, which doesn't necessarily help when you're, you know, thinking of a guy. He also came in with, like, ridiculous expectations. And so, you know, it doesn't help. that he had like the most dominant defense line season of all time in college and you know came to the NFL with that pedigree. But I think Hayward for his consistency, you know, there wasn't, you know, the down year or the down couple of years. It feels like Sue has had. It's just a guy that like brings it every single time and, you know, doesn't have necessarily the other incidents as well

that offense linemen don't necessarily love. So I'd probably give it to Hayward just because of the consistency and also the idea that like people don't know as much about him. And so I do think it's a credit to him that he's in that conversation and you know, kind of eaks it out. That's, I lift those names off because I think you could make an argument that he is one of the four best interior alignment of the last 10 to 12 years. And if he is, a guy of that stature and somebody who compares to his peers that way probably does deserve to be in consideration for the Hall of Fame. I mean, he was a part-time player for his first couple seasons. But if you look at it. Since he started

playing 16 games a year and starting 16 games a year, his sack totals is an interior defensive lineman in the years where he's played more than half the games. 7.5, 7, 12, 8, 9. He had 4 last year, 6 and a half this year. That's pretty damn good. That is

real production on top of the very real reputation that he has among players, among people who watch. So, I mean, I've always thought he was incredible and underrated. I absolutely. think he deserves to be in that conversation. And hopefully he can stack three or four more years at this level.

He's 32 and he's still playing really, really well. Yeah, he's going to have a few more and he's going to kind of have a longevity thing because he's a guy like you don't lose strength, you know, like he's always going to be super strong. So even as he gets towards his mid to late 30s, maybe he's more of a situational guy, but he's always going to have that power and that strength. I think I credit to him and, you know, I got into it with some of the PFF guys about, you know, things that are measurable or not, you know, the past week. I don't know if this is measurable or not, but he plays in a system that prioritizes being

physical and, you know, stopping the run. And so I almost wonder if he's almost like penalized in a way in terms of like the sack totals or the overall, you know, kind of counting stats because that's what he did. He stopped the run. He's very physical. He's obviously able to still get sacks and rush the passer. But, you know, one of the Watts hallmarks is that he could basically jump around blocks and he can do whatever he want.

and like freelance and still make the play and make the sacks and stuff. We always, you know, Aaron Donald is just straight up field all the time, get to the quarterback. Fletcher Cox is, you know, for the most part played in, you know, the kind of the penetrating defense align. He's just a three-tech goes upfield. He can go inside if he wants. Hayward's played as a four-tech. He's been head up on an offensive tackle. He's, you know, been double-teamed a whole bunch.

And, you know, for the most part, his main goal is to stop the run on first and second down and then get to the situations where he can pass rush. So I'm sure he You know Gets penalized like I said a little bit in those counting stats because of that You know he's not just like hey go be three tech You know you'll get a bunch of one-on-ones against guards Like rush or stop the run on the way to the passer Like some of the other guys are are doing

And that will probably you know Be to his detriment in the long run When we're looking at this Hall of Fame stats All right let's get to our last voicemail here before we get out of here Hello this is then I was wondering about whether or not you thought you could rank your top 10 wide receivers current in the NFL right now under the idea that they all had a quarterback like Tom Brady or Aaron Rogers. And then my second question is for Mitch and that is if he was a line coach right now,

who would he pick to be his starting five offensive linemen and two supplementary ones? Thank you. So let's put a pin in the receivers. I'd like to think about that because I always enjoy doing stuff like that. I wanted to ask you the offensive line question. Just put you on the spot. If you were building a starting offensive line right now in the NFL, what would it look like? So, I mean, I'm going to do the thing where we're assuming full health for everybody.

Yes. So, Trent Williams, Quentin Nelson. I think I might take Jason Kelsey just because he's like so fun and you can do so many things with him that you can't with other centers. I mean, Jensen is a good choice, but like, I mean, Quentin Nelson has already the asshole on that line. So I don't know if you could even put those two together. You might get too many flags. Zach Martin's, you know, pretty easy right guard. And I think laying in right tackle.

That makes sense to me. Oh, my God. I mean, it's just absolutely insane. I like Kelsey because I agree you have the mallers elsewhere. And having somebody with those movement skills at center would be really fun. The amount of stuff you could do with them. which is the closest of those in your opinion? Because I feel like all of those are outside of center, which we just discussed.

I think all those are kind of pretty clear cut right now, right? Yeah, I mean, so Quentin Nelson's been hurt the whole year. So like, that's not really fair to him because he hasn't had, you know, a year to his standards. But he's also basically been playing with injuries that I think most guys would, you know, sit out a month for. So, you know, what we've seen of him the first few years, you know, he seemed to be pretty clearly the top left guard. honestly I mean left tackle is always tough because healthy tyrant is healthy tyrant you know so yeah that's a guy that you could say is a left tackle but I think at this point Trent is like a little bit more versatile and you know the stuff he does in space and pulling and all that we've seen um yeah I mean

I think Zach Martin's pretty easy I think Lane's the pretty clear right tackle right now so um that was one that was surprisingly easier than I expected it to be yeah that was you did that much faster and in a way that I have no rebuttal, no notes, which I feel like I would have said like, oh, well, what about this guy? But I think that makes a lot of sense. Who do you think it would be the number two spot at right tackle right now if you were stacking it up? I'd still probably go Ramchick because I don't know, he's a heck of a player. I mean, he's been injured a little bit this year. But in terms of, you know, the body of work over the last four or five years, he's a very well-rounded guy too. So, you know, he's a guy that has, quote, unquote, left tackle movement skills. But he's shown the

ability to, you know, kind of function in any system, you know, any kind of gap scheme, zone, out in space, true pass blocking. You know, Wurfs is doing an amazing job of right tackle for Tampa. I'm going to be a hater and be, you know, a little bit skeptical of, you know, what he looks like without Tom Brady. You know, I still think it's all pro level and I still think it's great. But having, you know, that quarterback to help you out and get rid of the ball and pocket movement is very static and it's predictable and you know you don't have to block for more than eight yards for the most part so um he'd be probably number three for me at this point god could you imagine having played with tom brady at any point in your career

dude i remember when i was younger i would watch i think it was Sebastian volmer was the right tackle at the time and like he would just like take one pass set he'd like turn 90 degrees to the right and he'd just like push the guy at the field and i was like this doesn't make any sense and then they like gave him an extension and i was like that's getting rewarded. Like this looks terrible. And like he was a good player. You know,

he did the job. He blocked his guy, you know, all that stuff. But I was like, man, that just looks like so easy. And then they got Marcus Cannon and like,

kind of the same thing. I mean, he was, I think, a little bit better version of it. But like, it just, it seems so obvious that like,

it was easier to block for that guy. And that, it was the same for Peyton Manning as well. You know, like especially when he got to Denver. I mean, they had guys playing, you know,

right tackle that weren't very good players. But I remember watching, like, take two pass sets or take two, you know, kicks in your pass set, watch the guy run full speed into you and just like block him. It was as easy as that because, you know, the rushers knew, like, they couldn't rush up the field because it just wouldn't matter. And so I just remember thinking, like, the trust and the confidence that those tackles had, like, taking their pass set and just, like, settling and knowing that that was the right spot and knowing that the guy had to, like, run through them to get to the quarterback, I was just like,

man, I wish I could get that. that's why I think you can make a case that Joe is like one of the best players the last like 25 years the fact that he was a perennial all pro left tackle was the best left tackle in the league for like a decade and he blocked for how many quarterbacks 10 I blocked for 10 in four years so he probably blocked for like 25 and every guy is different however guy sets up is different how every guy moves is different every guy's clock is different and the fact that he was consistently the best left tackle in the league with a different guy behind him is just something that not enough people talk about her appreciate. It's fucking wild.

Yep, absolutely. Just like he needs more accolades. So, you know, kudos to him. We're giving him more. I'm pretty sure his trophy case is as full as it can get for an offensive lineman. But still, I still think it's something that we should talk about. All right. Always appreciate it, buddy. That was very fun. Always appreciate you guys sending in the questions. Sincerely, it's a blast to do this every single week. week means a lot that you guys would take the time to send them in. So keep that coming. We're going to keep doing this throughout the year, throughout the playoffs. So no worries there.

We'll be back tomorrow with Mike Sando. We're going to do a show about why there's been so much parody in the NFL this year, why it seems like there is a lack of elite teams, why it feels like anybody can beat anybody. I do not know the answer to that yet. That is something I'm going to try to dig into tomorrow with Mike. So please come back and check that out. In the meantime, please rate and review the podcast. We're getting toward the end of the year. If you have not left your review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen, just go throwing up there. If you like the show, a lot of people know. It would mean a lot to me. Also, please subscribe to the athletic. I have a story out today about the Arizona Cardinals defense. I went to Arizona. I spent some

time with Vance Joseph, with Buda Baker, with some of their other coaches, just talking about how they've become the defense that they are. They lead the NFL in EPA per dropback. a defense that we don't really talk about a lot because we spent so much time talking about Kyler Murray. I learned a lot of stuff that I found fascinating. Just the way that you build on defense, the way that you can grow over the course of three years. We talked about Jordan Hicks on this show. His story and how he fits into that defense is really interesting. So I encourage you guys to go check it out. Athletic.com slash football show. Again, it would mean a lot to me. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll be back tomorrow with Sandow. We'll talk to you later.

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