The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Mailbag: Justin Tucker's value, Matt Nagy replacements, protecting Mac Jones & more with Charles McDonald

Episode Date: September 28, 2021

Charles McDonald of For The Win is this week's special guest for our weekly Mailbag. Who are some coaches who could replace Matt Nagy if things continue to go south in Chicago? Is the Steelers offense completely toast? What would the Falcons look like with Joe Burrow? What is Justin Tucker's trade value? All this and more of your emails and voicemails with Robert Mays. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. Today is Tuesday, September 28th. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today. Joining me for the wins, Charles MacDonald for this week's Mailback. Charles, how you doing, man? I'm doing good.

You know, we're at three weeks since the season. You know, my Falcons are not having much fun, but, you know, I'm excited for you on, you have me on the show. It's always great to talk to you. I'm also in a very bad place with my team, but we're just going to lean into it today. Let's get to just the tone that most of today's voicemails took. Let's just say that.

I wasn't a member of the fire maggie crowd until the game against the Brown. It feels functionally impossible to be that stupid of a coach that you wouldn't have any more than two six-man protections for a whole game when you know you're up against that G-E-line, when you know you've got a mobile lock your quarterback. Is he just that bad that he can't actually scheme like any other coach in the league?

Even Zach Wilson got 160 yards last week. And yet we can't. It has to be time to fire him, no? Wow. Let's just roll another one. Let's just roll another one. Let's just keep him going. Hey, Robert Mays. This is from Salem, Morgan.

and we be okay. We beeped out his name just, you know, I want to let him do that anonymously as somebody who was drinking all day yesterday. He can do that in peace. He deserves that. I think those two calls, in total, though,

really represent a lot of the feelings that Bears fans had yesterday, where it's some combination of just bewilderment at some of the choices that the offensive staff made combined with a, oh, no, is this really happening again? Please, God, don't let this happen.

and again sadness. So I felt like those two are very amomatic of what was going on. You went back, Charles, and watched that game again this morning. We talked about it a lot on last night's show with Nate. Where are you at on the Bears' performance yesterday against Cleveland? What does Matt Nagy do? That was my initial reaction because you're sitting back there. And it's like how many times do you need to see Jason Peters on an island against Miles

Garrett before you make like some adjustment, some change there? where, you know, Field isn't running for his life every single day and every single play. And like the first thing that I thought when I was watching that game was, wow, like, this looks like a dude who was sitting on a boat enjoying his life and not worrying about having the block for a rookie quarterback. And, you know, I know that, you know, a couple of the sacks were maybe Fields holding on to the ball too long, but I've seen the All-22. So I don't know if, like, guys just more getting open downfield. But in the shorter routes, it seemed like Denzel Ward and, you know, the other Brown's defense of back. just had these guys on clamp. So, you know, there wasn't really anywhere to go.

Matt Nagy didn't help Justin Fields at all. There was just, like, no move in the pocket, no easy throws. It was just, you're going to sit in five men, and we're going to ask our receivers to go win a route against the defensive back, and they weren't doing that, and it was just a total mess. Like, by the time I was done watching all of his dropbacks, like I honestly felt like he didn't play as bad as I was expecting coming into it. There was just nothing going off for him.

I mean, everything, he short-circuited, but I think that everything else that was going on around him was also terrible. Everyone had a hand in what happened yesterday. Jason Hasbrook also sent us an email. It's a pretty simple question. He said, can you make the case for why the Bears should stick with Matt Nagy? As an offense-oriented coach, his team's performance on that side of the ball has been abysmal since he arrived in Chicago. It seems that he's unwilling to adjust or adapt his scheme to maximize the talent on the field. The only time the Bears' offense seemed to function during his tenure was when Bill Laser took over play calling last year.

Can you make a case for why the Bears organization should have any faith in Matt Nagy leading this team moving forward? Not really. And my concern from the moment that Justin Fields was drafted, I was obviously excited. Everyone saw the video of draft night and what happened in that moment. It's like, yes, this is an object of hope. I'm very, there's a chance, right? There's a chance that this could be the guy. But I said it in the moment, and it was all my excitement was tinged by this doubt.

about everything around him. Nothing else changed. Nothing about the organization changed at the moment that Justin Fields was drafted. This offensive staff, which has since been purged of several of its coaches, by the way. Dave Ragon, who was on that staff last year, is now the Falcons offensive coordinator. Charles London, who was the running backs coach last year, is on the Falcon staff right now. So all of these moving parts and the parts that are still there you're not excited about. And I just don't understand what the justification is.

if this keeps going on for much longer. The justification was, well, maybe it'll be different with Justin Fields. Maybe now that they have the quarterback, they chose, and they have this guy at the center of everything, it'll look different, it'll be different. And it doesn't seem to be the case. I know it's early. It's one game, and maybe there's a chance that it improves.

Maybe he's just not ready, and that affected just their overall confidence and the way to call games for him. But I still think that so many aspects of what we saw yesterday were just completely unacceptable. They have gotten the least out of the players on that offense consistently for the last three years in change. And unless something changes in a hurry, I think that you're going to have a hard time convincing

me that this staff, this front office, this group of leadership is the right group to shepherd this franchise moving forward. You don't want to sit here and accuse anybody of trying to sabotage someone, but you can't watch that game yesterday and think that Madagie had a, uh, Justin Fields' best interest at mind. And with the play calling, you're just leaving him out to dry so often. And I know that you can't predict that you're probably going to be in a place where, you know, due to injuries or, you know, moves in the offseason that you're going to be

at a point where you have to start a 39-year-old Jason Peters at left tackle. But when you're in a spot like that, like do more things to help him and Justin Fields up because you're looking at an outlier number, like nine sacks, one passing yard. that is to me almost always coaching staff failure because even the worst NFL teams have an ability to get more than one passing yard or 50 total yards. That is just such a bad coaching effort to me

that I don't really even know what you're looking at where you feel like you need to have them on the staffer next week. It's one of those things where I'm never quick to be like this guy should be fired. I never want to be that guy. But I think that you just have to be honest with yourself. And if you're looking at this, If this continues, right?

If there is actual tangible progress, then maybe we change this conversation over the rest of the season. But everything that we've seen, every bit of evidence that we have so far, is that things are not headed in a positive direction. So if this is the tenor of everything by the end of this season, there's just very little reason and very little justification for why this staff should get to oversee the next phase of the franchise. Because the franchise is stepping into next season, they have some cap room. They have Justin Fields. they can kind of remake this team around their young quarterback and kind of say,

all right, what is the next stage of this look like? Because you had that 2018 team with the defense and the pieces that made up that defense, and a lot of that team is now gone. Kyle Fuller is gone. Kalilmak is going to be on the wrong side of 30. He's making $30 million next year. I think a lot of the free agent acquisitions that this team made over Ryan Pace's last couple years may not be on the roster next year, whether it's Jimmy Graham, whoever.

So you have to sit there and say, all right, if we're going to give this quarterback the best possible chance, and again, nothing changes over the next 13 weeks, it's probably going to be with a different staff. And that's why Chris, Thunder Spirit on Twitter asked, well, being a Bears fan means never having to watch your team do the right thing. If by some minor miracle, George McCasky and Ted Phillips see what everyone in football sees and decide maybe their self-proclaimed wonderkin, Peter principled head coach, who didn't come here to run the eye formation, is in over his head. be in line to replace Matt Nagy. It obviously would be an assistant coach, but who are the guys in the NFL community that are considered next in line for promotion, presumably so the bears can start the same cycle all over again? I love the optimism.

Alejandro Houdamani asked a very similar question. Essentially, who are the coaching candidates next year in your mind? Who are the guys that you can get excited about if your team may be on the brink of making a significant coaching change, which it seems like, again, if it keeps going in this direction, the bears might be. I mean, Joe Brady comes to the top of the list, the Carolina Panthers offensive coordinator. I mean, I spent almost two years in the Jets beat, Washington, Sam Donald, you know, just kind of flounder about and throw a lot of interceptions and turn the ball over. What they're doing so far, and I know that they haven't had the easiest schedule, or they haven't had the type of schedule so far and play some pretty easy opponents.

But what they're doing on offense so far is pretty impressive. I mean, just from someone who has seen San Donald on one team in the bad situation, and now this seems to be a pretty quarterback-friendly offense that still allows him to go out and make plays and show, you know, the athleticism back. I think to be that number three pick with the Jets a few years ago. And just when you look at how they've already kind of tailored that offense from what Teddy Bridgewater was doing last year to what Sam Donald can do now in just like three games in a training camp, I think what Joe Brady has been able to do is pretty impressive and look at him as someone

it's kind of the real deal. Honestly, outside of that, I feel like it's kind of early to start thinking about a bunch of head coaching candidates. Maybe Eric B.N. he gets back in the mix, but I'm not sure how Bears fans

will feel about taking another Andrew Reed guy. I can't see that happening. Yeah. After what happened with Matt Nagy, but Joe Brady and Justin Fields, like to me, that's something that you can get excited about,

especially if they can get offensive line picks in their next year. I think that Joe Brady's a great answer. Brian Dable is the other person that I would probably think about. obviously what he's done with that offense in Buffalo. A couple rough games to start the season, but they've been excellent, the improvement that Josh Allen has made.

And I think he's an interesting guy just because, you know, he comes from a bunch of different places in the sense that he's a Patriots guy, but what they're doing right now looks nothing like what the Patriots offense has looked like for the last 20 years. So I feel like the influences he had with his time in Alabama, how much he's learned. I've got a chance to talk to him at the end of last season just about just the education that he's received as a coach over the last decade or so and how he's grown. And I feel like the humility he's kind of built up and the way that he's been able to say, I want to solicit ideas from my players.

I want to fold that in. I want to just be able to make this easier. It's not this is how I do it. This is how it's going to be. I feel like he's really settled into who he wants to be as a coach. He's really found his own voice, which can be difficult for those former Patriots assistants. I think those guys struggle to understand how to do it with their own style.

We've seen that happen so many different times. I think that the journey he's kind of gone on since his days in New England have allowed him to do that. I think he's ready for a job like that. And I think he'd be somebody that I would be excited to see do that. Because some of these guys, right, these offensive geniuses or whatever, they don't really connect with people very well. They're not players, coaches in the sense that you want them to be. People really like playing for Brian Dable. People love him. Josh Allen loves him.

And I think that's a big part of it is that somebody who can obviously just scheme the shit out of people, but also has an ability to nurture and create relationships with players. I think that's a good thing. So he's definitely up there at the top of that list for me or close to it. I think Joe Brady is another good name. But you probably in my mind want to go get another offensive coach just because you have a quarterback that you have to get the most out of for this thing to work. Yeah. All right, let's get to a couple of Falcons questions so you can feel bad about yourself.

Let's roll the voicemail. Hi, Robert. First time, long time. I'm wondering if they traded Joe Burroughs from the Bengals to the Falcons. Would Charles rather have that happen and have to root for a Joe Burrow-led Falcons for the rest of Joe Burroughs career? Or would he rather the Falcons disbanded as a franchise?

I'll hang up on this. Thank you. Do you have like a Joe Burrow thing? unaware of this? I don't know. Like, I think your bro is all right. I might not be like as high in him as like everyone else, but he's cool. But honestly, at this point, any option that says disbanded the Falcons is probably something

I'm going to lean towards just because how much more pain can you put this through, man? Like ever since that Super Bowl loss, it's just gotten worse every single year where, you know, next year, Eagles, where Keanu Neal just, you know, remembers how to catch a football with his hand instead of his knee. You might end up in the NFC championship game to start World War III against the Saints. And then you go, what, seven and nine, two years in the row or something like that. And then last year, four and 12, just total disaster, no cap room. You trade away the best player franchise history and just kind of, you know,

piddle around the entire offseason with no plan, take Kyle Pitts, barely even throwing him the ball. He's getting less targets and Lee Smith against the Giants. And just enough, enough of all of this. Arthur Blank just like sell the team to someone who's willing to release all the players back in free agency. We just pretend that none of this ever happened. We didn't exist. And we can just kind of go about our lives because the thing is we can't, we, Falcons fans, we just can't stop rooting for this team or I don't even know if we're rooting for them anymore.

We're just kind of watching them play. And I think if they just stopped existing, that would be better than any future that they could realistically give us. Even one that includes like, you know, eight years of Joe Burrow or 10 years of Joe Burrow. Joe Burrow. I'd rather just not watch the team because I'm, I've said enough. So let's dig into this a little bit further because you deserve it. Colin DeClew sent us a question said, is Matt Ryan afraid of throwing deep or the Falcons receivers incapable of getting open deep? Even this week when the protection actually held up,

thank you not playing Fletcher Cox or Vitavia. They didn't take many shots down the field. Couldn't see even the broadcast angle. So I'm curious what your thoughts are. Very relevant question here from Colin. I went back and I watched that game today. What do you think is going on with the Falcons offense? Like, what are they trying to be and trying to accomplish?

We dug into this last week, Nate and I on the Friday show. And after watching that game yesterday, which I have no idea how they won that game, by the way. Zero idea how they won that game. I'm just curious what you think about this offense in the way that it looks right now. So at first, that first game against the Eagles was like, whoa, this is pretty alarming because you're sitting on a spot where they're just trying to live in, like 21 and 22 personnel and trying to run the ball a lot with a fullback. And you're sitting there and over and over again,

you're getting punched in the mouth by the Eagles defensive line. And you didn't really seem to have a plan to mitigate the talent advantage or disadvantage on the offensive line. And then they come up in next week. And it just doesn't really seem like Arthur Smith has a plan for what he wants his Falcons team to be. And, you know, I guess to his defense, it's not like to have super great personnel.

but they have Calvin Ridley, Kyle Pitts, who really, they have no idea what they want to do with Pitts either. Because, I mean, last night, or yesterday against the Giants, you sitting there, he doesn't have a target until half with you the fourth quarter and you kind of realize, oh, wait, we should be getting, you know, this 6-6, 240-pound alien that we drafted fourth overall and passed on a franchise quarterback. We should probably get him a little bit involved more. But every week, they seem to have different things that they want to,

to accentuate within their offense. Week one, they want to be this billy ball running game, which they couldn't do. Week two, they got a little bit more in a rhythm, but still, like, the passing game was really, really short. Even if you're completing a high percentage of your passes, if you're not getting a lot out of them, that doesn't really help you that much as an offense.

And then yesterday, like you said, I have no idea how they won that game because the passing game was all over the place. I mean, you're targeting Lee Smith and Cordero Paterson a bunch. It's just really, really strange. And it's disappointed because if you go back to the off season and you look at them and you're like, well, the only way that you can really defend drafting Kyle Pitts for the bra, passing on Justin Fields is if Arthur Smith is as good as we thought he was going to be. And he's coming in right away and making that offense work. But that hasn't even remotely been the case so far.

And they are just so disjointed right now. They look the best when they're doing Titans shit from the last couple of years. like when they're doing just straight drop back play action and he's getting his head around and they're hitting in breakers over the middle of the field, that's when their offense looks the most dynamic. That was like their best plays yesterday outside of that Kyle Pitts corner out in the fourth corner.

Those are the times where they were like, all right, that's a chunk play. The problem is, I'm assuming in their minds, they can't play that way because they can't run the ball. And that's probably their thought, is that there's a disconnect between that aspect of the offense and the running game. And if that disconnect exists, we can't lean into that version of the offense, even if it's the most productive, efficient way that we can throw the ball.

So now they're living in this dropback world that, like, out of shotgun on first and 10 with this team, and it's just, it doesn't make sense. But I think they don't know what to do because they don't have that first link in the chain. And it's kind of short-circuiting everything else that they're trying to do. And I understand that. It gets frustrating when you don't have the talent up front and you're trying to figure it out. as you go. I just don't know where they're going to find an answer because they certainly haven't so far.

Yeah, even yesterday, I was hoping that as the game would go along, Matt Ryan realized, oh, you know, these guys, like, they kind of got a handle on the Giants pass rush for the most part. Maybe we can take a couple shots down the field, but it just doesn't seem like he trusts these guys up front to even give them a chance to get the ball down field, which I understand after the first game and the second game, he was on the ground a lot, he was getting hit a lot,

and it's not like the Giants defense of the line, as Phil was slouches. I mean, you got Larry Williams, who's a $20 million per year guy, Dexter Lawrence, he's a stud, Azizzo Guadarly. So they're not terrible, but Dolph and Devine did enough,

you would think, where they can get some of these passes downfield. You know, when the All-22 comes out, maybe it's a thing where James Bradbury was just blocking up Calvin Ridley, but when you have these investments in the passing game with Calvin Ridley and Kyle Pitts, it's just kind of,

disappointing that the ball just keeps ending up in quarter out Patterson's hands. As much as fun as it is to watch them running over guys when it gets the ball in space. I think the only time they tried to really push it yesterday, in the second half, they had a heavy play action shot on first and 10 deep in their own territory. And they had a, like, I think seven guys in protection and he got sacked. It was the one time we're like, all right, we're going to try to take a shot here. And even with seven guys in, he managed to get sacked. And it's just one of those things.

It seems like every time they try to push the ball on the field, they try to get a little bit more aggressive. Either Matt Ryan's arm looks like pulled pork, which was one of the greatest things you've ever said in the history of your time on the internet, or they struggle to hold up in protection. It's just nothing is working for them right now. If the Giants can catch a ball in the end zone, an interception that's an interception 99 times out of 100 late in that game,

they beat the Falcons yesterday. But that is not what happened. And somehow the Falcons managed to win. Yeah. I thought the Giants looked like the better team. And the Giants just did what they do under Joe Judge, which is just lose inexplicable games like always. Because they really had no business to lose in that game.

They were the better team. And they just always find incredible ways to lose them, Joe, Judge, and Dave Gettlement. It's crazy what's going on there where you have during the game, it's Eli Manning Day. And John Mara is coming out onto the field. And he's getting booed on Eli Manning Day. And Elon Manning has to come back like he's actually on the field.

Like everybody to stop booing, like they're in a really dark place. I will say that I resent you a little bit for being on the show today because I had to go back and rewatch the Falcons Giants game. If you weren't on the show today, I would have spent the next 20 years of my life pretending that that didn't happen yesterday. But unfortunately, that was no longer an option. Yeah, it was terrible from start to finish. Awful game. Awful product. Our friend Hayden Winks asked a very quick question.

He said, why are the Falcons using Kyle Pitts like Donald Parham? I don't know. I have the same exact question. Why are you waiting until the fourth quarter to throw it to your fourth overall pick? And then they have this epiphany. They have they like they run Kyle Pitts like a corner route when they're just desperate for some offense to the fourth quarter. And Gibral Pepper's matched up in coverage on him. And he just runs right past Gabriel Peppers gets wide open. And you're like, oh wait, he's really good. He's really good of football. We just throw him the ball more. And then you get down into the red zone. You get a pass interference throwing up to him again. Oh, wow. This guy that we drafted fourth overall, our scouting reports were right on him. He's incredible. But for some reason, we just can't remember to give him the ball. And that's just the most frustrating part. Like, we all know he's good.

We all know that he can beat most NFL defensive backs. We saw the play against the Bucks last week where he's running like 40 miles an hour as soon as he gets the ball. Just throw it up to him and see what happens. I don't get why he's not a part of the offense, really. Well, let's turn around the tone here and a little bit of a happier note. And let's get to a question about the Jets. Robert, this is Danny, a long-time fan of the podcast in your writing. Just calling in and ask, when do you think the Jets are ever going to be good?

I mean, Arch Manning's going to come out in a couple of years, and if the Manning's let the Jets take him, I think that could be the chance to turn it around. But if that doesn't happen, do you think it could happen with Wilson, Sala, and the Jets right now? Big fan you too, Charles. Have a good day. Enjoy the rest of the podcast. Bye. I wanted to include this because three games, Danny has given up on

The Zach Wilson era, three games in, he's ready for Arch Manning three years from now. This is what it's like to be a Jets fan. I also love the part if the Manning's allowed to just take Arch. That's a great little bit because I don't think that that is something that can be guaranteed if they're in that position, you know, four or five years from now. It's absolutely incredible. I just love, it's been three weeks. It's still September and we already have Jets fans punting on the Zach Wilson era.

I went back and I watched that game yesterday. It was not as bad as I expected it to be. It was not good, but it was not as terrible as I thought it might be going into the rewatch. There were some moments where I was like, all right, this looks like an NFL team. There were plenty of moments where it didn't. But I think that he looks like a rookie quarterback who spent zero time in college having to deal with any sort of pressure. And he does not know how to handle it right now. And their offensive line doesn't look good.

I think there are a lot of issues, but I don't think it's totally hopeless. Yeah, it's not hopeless yet. It's just, it's just kind of frustrating that, you know, you just look this crappy again. And it's like, man, like, no matter what head coach quarterback, we always look bad. But I still, I still think that this regime is not totally hopeless. I mean, you're dealing with a lot of injuries. Yes. Like not having Carl, Carl, Lawson, Mackay Beckton right now, not where you thought you were

going to be coming to the season. And the beth and loss is just massive for for them right now. And obviously, you're going to see it when you play against von Miller week three in your offense is still trying to get together a little bit. And you just can't get anything done up front. And, you know, Conn McGovern at Center, yesterday's game was just kind of like inexplicably bad for him, like almost like you can't really even play that bad again because we know that you're in that NFL athlete and you're going to get it together. And that's, they just kind of seem to have like all these bad little moments at the worst possible time, whether it's a drop that leads to an interception or, you know, a bust

up front that leads to a sack. But, you know, I don't think that Zach Wilson has been like maybe as bad as some just fans as are saying. I just kind of think that it's just been the perfect storm of crap where you end up with a team that already wasn't very good and you're going through your garden pains and you're hurt. It's just, it's, it's, it's just another reminder that this is going to take a while. It's going to take a couple years. And that can be, you know, disheartening to hear when you've been perpetual rebuild for like a decade now.

But, you know, you still got to give Saleh and Wilson and those guys time to get it together. But, you know, you're also allowed to be upset about getting, you know, blank 26 and nothing in your third game out. I think that you're saying that it's something little every single time and something different. That's what it looks like on offense. They look very disjointed up front. There was a play, I mean, talking about McGovern, where clearly miscommunication, Vera Tucker just lets the nose tackle through. Like he thought that he was going to get out from the center, comes right through.

They're playing on different levels against stunts. It's a big problem right now. They cannot deal with any moving parts up front. You have Wilson starting to slowly drift in the pocket. He's slowly starting to move backward, like consistently, where now it's like, now I'm at 10 yards. Now I'm at 10 and a half yard. Now I'm bailing out the back of the pocket. That becomes a problem.

So you have all of this stuff starting to compound. Then you drop a ball here. You drop a ball there. And it starts to snowball. And by the end, it's like another disastrous offensive performance. But it's because it happens slowly over time. And I think that's exactly what's happening right now. It's too early to panic to pull the plug.

Like if they get a little bit more continuity along the offensive line, their running game looks okay. It's not nearly as bad as when they're throwing. the ball if they can kind of get some more out of that running game, that offensive line plays together a little bit longer. I understand that it's rough, but I feel like we should not quite be ready to punt on the Zach Wilson era here after three games. Yeah, and I think one thing you're seeing with Zach is something that it's fixable. It's just something that he's going to be more reps at. But it made me a little concerned watching him at BYU where like you see all these incredible

bros he has down the field and he's making guys miss in the pocket. And to me, I was like, you know, he doesn't really play all that well in rhythm, but he's kind of getting away with it where you have these insane words on the back end because he does have the arm talent to do really whatever he wants out in the field. And I think one thing that he's learning in the NFL is one, that time back there to sit

and scan the field and figure out what's going on. It's a lot shorter when it's, uh, it's Von Miller and, you know, those boys come at you instead of, you know, some defensive event from Utah or Yukon or something like that, whatever, you know, fake teams they were playing last year. And, you know, that talent difference is, I think it's a big shock to his system right now. But again, like, to me, that's something that you'll figure out as you get more reps and we start to build this team around them.

And hopefully you can get Macaibectin healthy later in the season because it doesn't, we don't really seem to have like a clear timeline on how long that's going to be either. Yeah. And I think that, you know, Fant hasn't been a disaster. But again, it's the moving parts. It's just the lack of familiarity with the guys playing with each other up. front. And I think that's been a concern. And I think that you see that show up consistently. And when that happens, the quarterback starts to develop bad habits. And it's just happening already. And I think that's why it's disheartening as a Jets fan. All right. This next one is from Zach T says,

we wanted to ask a question about the Bears, but he decided not to. This question is, excluding the Rams, which current 3 and O team do you think is most likely best set up to make a deep playoff run? Let's say conference championship game. He's inclined to pick the Cardinals because they have the quarterback of the 3-0 teams, and the Raiders still have to get past Denver, KC, and the charges in their division, but he does not trust Cliff Kingsbury. Charles, which three-and-o team do you feel best about right now? I think I'll go with the Cardinals just because I think that they have that, you know, if I can't take the Rams, obviously, just because they have the best quarterback. I'm someone who doesn't really trust Cliff Kingsbury either, but I, I just love

the way that Kyle Murray he's playing. And even if like he doesn't have full command of like the structure plays that Cliff Kingsbury is calling, they have this weird thing where they can just get off track on a play and everyone still stays instinct, whether, you know, it's Ron Dale Moore making something off, you know, off count or if it's Collar Murray just scrambling or making somebody miss. Like they just have a really weird ability to play out of structure. And I think that that is something while, you know, it's going to bite them in the ass from time of time, it kind of does help you make these big extended plays in the playoffs that you're going to need. And you know, you're not going to get the Jaguars every week, but their ability

to make big plays on defense, whether it's sacks or turnovers. That's something that's going to help them travel well too. So of the three and no teams, I'll take the Cardinals even as a fellow Clint Kingsbury skeptic. The three, the list of three and O teams is hilarious. It's the Raiders, the Rangers, the Broncos, the Rams, the Cardinals, and the Panthers. Those are the five three and teams. I think that's it. Which, God, what a strange collection of teams that is. I think the Cardinals are the

right answer for what you said. And I think because of the way that Kyler is playing and just that dynamic that he gives you, I think my answer is the Raiders, though. And it's for this reason. I just have more faith in the offensive structure that the Raiders have

and their plan on offense to just be sustainable throughout the year. I think the things they can rely on and just how well-constructed that offense is makes me feel a little bit better about that team in the long term than the Cardinals. That may come back to bite me just because the Cardinals do have more talent at quarterback. They have talent on offense. I think they do have talent on defense, even if there are still some questions at certain aspects of what they are.

But I feel a little bit better about the Raiders just because I think the way that it's structured is a little sounder and more sustainable for me. But I don't feel good about that answer. Yeah, I mean, I've become someone that kind of has grown to like Derek Carr over the past couple seasons because I think the Raiders offense is awesome. I really like them. It's awesome because I was one of these people at first like, oh man, Derek Carr, he's kind of a scrub. And then like I would sit down and watch and like he's got like all the traits he wants. Sometimes he's kind of craps out and kind of forgets how talented he is.

And what I think is his biggest problem. But I think that we've kind of got to a point where he might be a little bit underrated. terms of like his public perception like this is a really good quarterback and he and john gruden have really figured out how that passing game can operate where they can be aggressive and efficient at the same time this year i guess it's just for me i still want to see what the defense does long term yeah max crosby and yannick have been great to start the season but i still don't trust that secondary uh especially after what we saw yesterday against the dolphins i think that's totally fair but again that three no teams and it's just a weird group of teams like the panthers are

I was on Carolina Radio today. I think the Panthers are going to be okay in the long run. I think next year they'll be a really interesting team. They need one more offseason. I think they need one more off season to kind of figure out certain parts of that roster. The offensive line, just one more year with the secondary and to build up the defense. It's been great so far, but I still think that they're a little ways away, which is not an indictment of them.

Like their timeline, that makes sense. You know, the Raiders have to win right now. They're trying to win right now. This is their year. So I feel like, I feel a little bit better about the Raiders than I do about a team like the Broncos of the Panthers, but it's definitely close. Like that is, again, a strange collection of teams. All right. Let's get to a question and a voicemail here about Justin Tucker, who I cannot talk enough about after yesterday.

As a big Ravens fan and a Justin Tucker stand, every time it makes a huge pick, it always has been wondering. What a team trade first round picks for Justin Tucker, it always gets me curious. I know the Ravens would never do it. But at what point would you trade draft capital for the greatest kicker of all time? Just curious. Love the show. So I don't want to do Justin Tucker now as the subject of this question. Justin Tucker is 31, right?

I mean, but Justin Tucker, let's say five years ago, when Justin Tucker was 26 and he had most of his career ahead of him. Like, what would you trade for Justin Tucker at his peak? Man, that's tough. It kind of reminds me up this question that was like on Twitter. maybe a few months ago in the off season where someone said, would you take a kicker

in the first round if you knew that they were going to make a kick basically anywhere you put them on the field? And I think most people said yes. And while that's not what Justin Tucker is, I think with time,

Justin Tucker, you can make the case that anywhere inside the 50 is fair game, which is like a super duper valuable weapon to have, not for you, not where you want to get complacent.

and all that and kick field goals every going from fourth out and we need a touchdown. But just a spot where you know that you're good, basically all you have to do is get to midfield and you have a good chance to get three points. That's super valuable to have. So I don't know if I would go first, but a third rounder, like I might think about it. Because, you know, I feel like with first and second rounders, you're still looking for impact starters. But Justin Tucker was so good. And, you know, I'm not like some math that's going to be able to calculate this on top of his head.

But I feel like, you know, a third round pick for Prime Justin Tucker is probably more production than you're going to get out most third rounders at that point in the draft. I looked at some of the numbers from when he was really, really hot. So I looked at some, the just like Football Outsiders, DVOA rankings for kicking an extra points over the last five years. So his ranks, 2020, he was fourth. 2019, he was first, 2018. He was third, 2017 first, 2016 first. In 2016, he was nearly twice as a second. valuable as every other kicker in the NFL.

By late November, early December that year, he had produced like 22 total EPA compared to the next best kicker. So if you look at it, that's like equivalent to like the 16th best quarterback in the NFL. That was at his absolute peak, which is crazy. So if you look at it in those terms, at his absolute height, he might have been. been worth the first round pick. I, but I still would, that would still be tough for me. I think like 2016 Justin Tucker, I would have traded a second round pick for him.

If you could get that guy. Now, he's 31. Kicking sustainability is hard, period. Let alone when you get into your 30s. Like, kicking, that's why investing in a kicker is very rarely worth it because kickers are so volatile. Kickers don't sustain success. And he's an exception to that rule.

he's been good pretty much for as long as he's been in the league. So it'd be tough for me to do it now. But if you would give me 26-year-old Justin Tucker, I could justify trading a second round pick for him. Yeah. I mean, it's better than Roberto Valle. Yes. Yes.

A second-run pick, yeah, I could do that after this and the map. I mean, it's just crazy to think that he's so good. You can even have this discussion. To me, it's a thing about the way that the league is. changed. If this was 10 years ago or 15 years ago and you could be this defense and special teams and you could win with 21 points if your defense was good enough, I think that's easier to justify. Now, when you have so many teams, that's the irony is that the Ravens go four on four down more than any other team in the NFL and they have the best kicker. Now where every

single fourth and two on the other side of the 50, you should probably be going for it. I think kickers probably have less value now than they've had in the past. it becomes harder to talk yourself into it. But again, I think five years ago for that version of Justin Tucker, a second round pick makes sense. All right. Let's get to our next one here from Angela Thistle. She has two questions via the Patriots. I want to ask the second one.

The first one's about kind of Bill Belichick falling off. I'm not willing to get at that quite yet. I want to watch a little bit more. Second one, I think, though, is interesting. She said before the season, she expected a real strength of this Patriots team would be at the offensive line. But after three weeks, she thinks it's fair to say they're underperforming. She wonders what we think is going on.

Trent Brown being injured in the first quarter of the first game and right tackle being a weak spot, that all three opponents have kind of come after Mack Jones with pressure to test their protection schemes, or is that they haven't lived up to expectations or some combination of all of them. So where are you at about how the Patriots offensive wine has played up to this point in the year? I mean, the running tackle spot is definitely a huge issue. I mean, the guy Justin Heron, who came in to, feeling for Trent Brown, he has been, you know, not to be mean, but pretty much a disaster at right tackle since he's coming to the lineup. And that game against the Saints, I mean,

I don't know if Kim Jordan got home on a sack, but he definitely got close a bunch of times just bullying over that right tackle. You kind of see the deficiencies there. And I think it's kind of like where everything kind of compounds on each other. So the offensive line is not quite as good as we thought was going to be, although Michael on Wendu, I hope I didn't, you know, butcher that. I think he's having a great year. Everyone else is kind of above average to below average where you have Justin Heron and where he's been battered by tackles, which invites more pressure on Mac Jones. Mac Jones, I have not really been that impressed with what we've seen in him play under pressure. It kind of feels like what we thought it was going to be at Alabama,

where everything has to be right or close to right with the timing and protection for him to be able to generate big plays downfield. And when you see some of the pressure start to get in and he can't make a play with his legs, I know he had a couple of scramples yesterday, but for the most part, these are plays that are going to be losses or just incomplete for the Patriots offense. You know, that pressure invites bad Mac Jones, which is not a Mac Jones that can really conduct much of an offense. then when the coverage is also tight on the back end, the Patriots, as much money as they spent on offensive skill players this off-season, I still would not say that their wide receiver room is a strength. You know, Nelson Aguilar and Kendrick Bourne,

these are, you know, like, number two or even number three receivers on some of the better offenses in the league. So, you know, the patients are at a point where the timing, just based on the personnel they have, they really don't have a big, you know, margin for error just in terms of the quarterbacks kind of physically limited, the receivers. They're not always going to be guys to get open without being schemed open. And then we have an off-of-the-line that's struggling and one super-duper weak spot at right tackle. It just creates his offense that has to playoff schedule.

It isn't really built to playoff schedule, which is where they kind of get in russ with their score. I totally agree. I totally agree. And anytime they're in like third and long, they're in a really bad way. The right tackle spot is a problem, but going back and watching that game from yesterday, I think their backs and just the ancillary parts of their pass protection were worse than the offensive line played. So when you're not getting proper pass protection from those pieces of your offense,

and I think they were, I think he was blitzed on like 15 dropbacks or so. So you need those guys in protection on those sorts of plays. When they're not playing well, it all starts to fall apart a little bit. They have an issue at right tackle. I think everyone else was fine. I also think that the details have to be right. if you're going to be a quarterback like Mac Jones. He can't be taking 10-11-yard drops.

And he did that multiple times yesterday, where Isaiah wins trying to push people past the pocket, and he's pushing people into Mac Jones 11 yards deep. And I think this is more an issue of how young quarterbacks mitigate pressure than it is about the Patriots offensive line. You go back and you watch rookie quarterbacks recently and the way that they've dealt with it. There was a play yesterday where Mac Jones literally drifted back to about

14, like 12 yards, 12, 13 yards, and tried to hit, I want to say it was Aguilar down the middle of the field. And just no chance. Like, absolutely no chance. Because he just doesn't have the arm to do that. If you go back and you watch Justin Herbert last year, he can drift to 12 yards in the pocket under pressure. When that offensive line was falling apart, his ability to just make throws from every

platform and every angle allows him to survive. Joe Burrow, the entire offense was constructed last year to help him mitigate pressure. They just lived in empty and kind of let him play point guard in order to solve that problem. So when you don't have that problem solved in any way where your quarterback isn't mobile, he doesn't have a huge arm, he can't beat people upstairs yet because he doesn't understand those aspects of the game, you're seeing that with what the Patriots offense looks like now. He has no answers at this point. So I'm not surprised that he looks bad. But this also goes back to the Zach Wilson conversation. It's about Trevor Lawrence recently.

it's about Justin Fields. Rookie quarterbacks are usually bad. We've been spoiled recently with the way that some of these guys have played, but they're often bad. And I think that's more what we're seeing than anything else. It's just a return to this idea that rookie quarterbacks are typically not good quarterbacks, and that's what those guys have been here over the first three games. Yeah, and it kind of reminds me of a point that I thought that Mina made that was good on Twitter the other day,

where, you know, she was saying that, you know, a lot of people that, the counter has been, you know, all these guys need to be sitting on the bench. And, you know, she was like, yeah, not really because we haven't really seen that that is something that matters, you know, in the past couple years where these guys have gotten on, off the fast starts. For me, I just kind of think that they're probably going to figure this out as, you know, the games keep going. But, you know, it's really rare to have people like Patrick Mahomes coming to the league or Lamar Jackson

or Baker Mayfield like the second half of his rookie season, Justin Herbert last year. like they made it look a lot easier than it actually is. And I think that you can still feel really good about your evaluation of those. This rookie quarterback class, you know, from the off season and still also realize that right now they're not playing well. But it doesn't have to be like this referendum on, you know, they need to sit. They don't need to sit. They're good. They're bad.

They're just all kind of figure it out right now. And I still think that this is going to be a class. Then we look back on was like, damn, like that was a really good group of quarterbacks come to the league at one point. I totally agree. If you look at it, Josh Allen's numbers were horrendous as a rookie. He was so, so bad. Lamar Jackson, as a passer, was not that good as a rookie. He was excellent when he got to settle in full time.

He wasn't that good right out of the gate as an NFL quarterback. A lot of these guys aren't. And I think that even what you talk about, some of those examples, a lot of the success that Baker-Mayfield has as a rookie, that was streetball stuff. That was running around out of structure, chucking the ball downfield. and the same with Justin Herbert. It was the concern that people had about whether he could sustain some of that stuff from last year because so much of it was things that are not usually sticky.

It's hard to continue to be that good at those aspects of the game. So I think that those are exceptions more than anything else to what we've come to expect from rookies at the position. And I am not surprised that these guys are struggling. And I think that we kind of have to recalibrate our expectations a little bit. Yeah. All right. Let's get to another voicemail here about the very disappointing Pittsburgh Steelers. Hey, guys.

This is Clint from Oil City, Pennsylvania. And I have one question. Is there any hope for the Steelers offense? Please give me some good news. Thanks. We talked about this a lot on yesterday's show with Nate, but I wanted to give you the chance to talk about this. I'm curious what you think about what you've seen from the Steelers.

Is there any hope, buddy? know there's no hope this is what you are now this is your life i mean the the time to change was in the off season or at least make a play for the future but you decide to pick a running back in the first round and trot out whatever is left of ben ralphesberger out on the field and i just don't know if you're a steeles fan like how do you feel about this are you one of these people who's just like oh he's a franchise legend or you know he's done so much for our team which you're just left to finish his career here? Or are you someone that's like, wow,

we have like a mannequin playing quarterback who can barely move in the pocket and is falling down when he has to throw more than like 15 yards down the field? It's just a sloppy mess, a quarterback at the whole offense. Ben, whether it's like physical incapability or just refusal outright,

won't push the ball down the field. Then when he does, he's missing just like by, you know, 15, 20 yards it feels like. So no, there's no hope. for you this year. This is what your offense is going to be the rest of the season. This was what it was for most of the season last year, even when you guys were on the winning streak. You guys were just in denial. And it's going to be a horrible end to Ben Rob Spirder's career in Pittsburgh. How's that? I think that's exactly right. I mean, it's the video that Stephen Ruiz put on

Twitter today set to the, with the old-timey background and the piano music, is the hardest that I've laughed at something football related in quite a while. I mean, it was, it's so so bad. When you watch it all in succession like that, it's just so, so bad. There's just no path to it getting better in my mind. You're in a holding pattern until next year. And then what happens? Like, then how are you going to go get a quarterback? It just, they're in a really, really, really tough spot. And it never made sense to draft a running back in the first round. It never made sense to drafts running back in the first round when the issues with your running game were much more about the structure of the running game and the guys up front than they were about

whoever was carrying the ball. And we knew that. We knew all of this coming into the season. And maybe in August when everyone's talking with a certain modicum of hope, you can be like, oh, maybe, maybe this will work out. But then you see in practice, it's like, oh, no, we all should have known this. This is exactly how this was always going to end. So I'm very sorry to Clint, but I don't think it's going to get any better for you here, buddy. All right, last one here. that came in late because this news came in today from Charlie Fry. He says, what do you make of the C.J. Henderson, Dan Arnold trade. He said he knows Scott Fitterer gets painted as not valuing draft picks.

But if you trade a mid-round pick for a former top 10 pick in the second year of his rookie contract, is that really the same as devaluing draft picks? What do you think of the Panther secondary now? I don't see from the Panthers perspective, I like the trade. Might as well, right? Yeah, might as well. We know the JC Horn is going to be out for a long time. maybe the entire season with a broken foot.

And, you know, I think the Panthers, they have a chance to get a cornerback who, like, almost perfectly fits what they want to do on defense, where if they want to beat this team that's going to get up the field and blitz a lot and play man coverage on the back end, then it really helps to have someone like C.J. Henderson, in theory, who can play sticking their coverage and maybe takes them advantage of these poor balls that are coming out due to pressure. So, you know, C.J. Henderson is not like that dude yet, but he's only one year into his career, hasn't played a whole lot of football. He was highly touted for a reason.

When you look at, like, his athleticism and his strengths coming out of Florida, they really do align with what the Panthers are trying to be on defense now. And if you can unlock what's been missing with C.J. Henderson and get him to play, like, you know, an above average corner or maybe even a good quarterback, you're coming back into next year with a defense that is. super duper talented. You look at a young secondary that has J.C. Horn, Jeremy Chin, Donate Jackson, and C.J. Henderson, along with guys in the front, like Shaq Thompson, Brian Burns, Derek Brown. Like, there's quite a lot of names coming together

on the Panthers' defense. And I like taking the wrist because you don't really have that much to lose at this point. Yeah, I mean, I think it's probably going to be painted as this move for, well, J.C. Horn's going to be out for the year. But C.J. Henderson's in his second season. I mean, it's not as if this. is a 2021 only move. You know, Dante Jackson, I believe, is hitting free agency after this year.

So they may need another outside cornerback as soon as 2022. So now you potentially, if this works out, could have J.C. Horn and C.J. Henderson, plus a lot of the other young pieces you have on that defense. I mean, it's a third round pick. You already traded, I believe, at 22 second for Darnold as part of that deal. So a couple picks, but when it's for a quarterback and for a guy that was a top 10 pick a year ago, I think you absolutely can justify it. Maybe seeing him as a top 10 pick is a rationalization.

He was probably overdrafted there a little bit. And eventually those guys, whatever you were drafted, it becomes matters less over time. But I still think it's a worthwhile gamble for where this team is in the current place on its trajectory, for sure. Yeah. If you believe in your coaching staff and the culture that you've built to kind of accept someone like CJ and, you know,

I remember today, Rayshon Jenkins, the safety for the Jaguars, he was asked about today. He said, you know, CJ's a different dude. And if you follow him on Twitter, I think you'll kind of see what he's talking about. But if you're Matt Rule, you have been this guy who from program, program school to school has been a culture guy. We're going to get guys in. We're going to do the right thing.

And you're going to go play good football. Like, if you believe in yourself that much, then yeah, we're going to take on CJ Henderson because I know if I can get him to get on the field, and do what he needs to do. We have potential to have, you know, a really, really good man coverage cornerback group, which is really, really hard to build the NFL. Yeah, and I think they're looking at guys that are in places with weird situations, right? He was brought in by a previous regime. It's not as if he flamed out with the coaching staff that drafted him. There's been a lot of change over there. It's not as if Jacksonville has been the healthiest environment for players. So I totally get that. I think

you're banking on what you're building there and your ability to get the most out of guys, the same way you just did with Darnold, which so far, that's working out. So I completely understand it as a smart risk, as a mitigated risk. And we'll see what happens. All right. Charles, thank you very much, my friend. It's always great to chat with you. I really appreciate you taking the time out on a Monday.

And I appreciate all of you guys sending me your questions. Always means a lot that you would take the time to do that. So thank you very much. We will be back later this week. Wednesday, we are going to dig into tomorrow. We are going to dig into a lot of pretty fun defensive stuff with Chris Vassur, Coach Vass on Twitter. We're going to do a very deep dive on some cool defensive stuff,

just really nerd out about some of the things happening in the NFL. I hope you guys are excited about that. I definitely am. In the meantime, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. Please subscribe to the athletic. Theathletic.com slash football show. we'll be back later this week.

Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.