The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Mailbag Monday: Separating player from situation, balancing all-in and patience, remembering our favorite single-season teams, and more

Episode Date: July 7, 2025

July is here, which means training camps are just a few short weeks away. The football is getting closer, and that's reflected in this week's TAFS Mailbag. Robert Mays and Derrik Klassen answer a bunch more of your questions on this edition, including...How do you separate a player from his situation? How does a competing team correctly balance a desire to go all-in with the patience necessary to build a stable winner? What are your favorite single-season teams in NFL history? What does it mean for a quarterback to be creative? Hear their answers to those questions, and more, on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Hosts: Robert Mays and Derrik KlassenWith: Michael BellerExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...⁠Apple⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠YouTube⁠Follow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Beller on Bluesky: @mbeller.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Mailbag Monday is back. Me, Derek Klessen, Michael Beller, answering all of your guys' questions. Had some really fun ones today. Had some remember some teams questions, some really good thoughts about just terms and ideas that we throw around on the show that we wanted to be identified and defined a little bit more. So sincerely appreciate everyone who took the time to send these in. Let's get to that discussion with Derek and Michael right now.

It's another mailbag Monday here on the athletic football show. We're getting toward the end of these. When we get into training camp, I feel like there's going to be enough stuff to talk about where having a mailbag come out on Monday after a week's week's worth of training camp news might be a dangerous practice. So as always, sincerely appreciate everyone who took the time to send in questions. We got a ton of good ones, really excited to dig into this. Here to help me sort through all of your questions.

It is my co-host here at the athletic football show, Derek Classen, and our producer, Michael Bellar. Derek, we're on the show last week. We were just like the scheduling quirks. It's nice to have you back. I'm glad to be back. I stepped away from the mic for a couple of days and Jalen Ramsey gets traded and Mika Fitzpatrick's going back the other way.

I can't go to a buddy's wedding without the entire NFL flipping on its head. So it's good to be back, though. You took like two days off and missed all that stuff. I was in Spain for 19 days. When you guys are listening to this, I'll be in Italy. and somehow I've managed to avoid things. Fingers crossed that we don't have any massive, you know,

groundbreaking news when I'm gone. But Beller, I think you and Derek will be able to handle it if that does happen. I think we'll be able to handle it. Hopefully the NFL chills out a little bit. And when everyone listens to this, I'm going to be in Cleveland. So,

you know, we're all going to be doing our, right? Yeah, same, Cleveland, Italy, same thing. We're all going to be doing our,

Cleveland actually has a lovely little Italy with some great restaurants. So, you know, maybe we can compare notes, Robert, when we're both back home. I'll tell my wife, instead of flying to Milan tomorrow, we should just drive to Cleveland,

and I'm sure it'd be a very similar experience. Shorter trip. It was funny. I was messaging all of our beatwriters yesterday because I finally is my training camp travel, which I'm very excited about. It's still one of my favorite things I get to do every year. I'm going to like 24 teams in like three weeks. And I was talking to all of our beat writers being, hey, I'm going to be there. I'd love to chat with you guys. And on Slack, there's a little notification or a little symbol for vacation. Every single beatwriters. has the vacation signal up right now because that's the time we're in in the NFL calendar. So Derek, I think it's okay for you to steal away for a couple days to go to a friend's wedding in July.

Yeah, especially as we're winding down the mailbags, you know, we've gotten enough of them out of the out of the way now. So I don't feel too bad about it. But all you missed was like Aaron Rogers signing, which we knew was going to happen. And I miss the biggest trade of the offseason. Before we dig into these questions, I want to address one quick thing. That show we did a couple weeks ago about which teams we overrate and underrate in a given season. back over the last decade and kind of found some examples that fall into different buckets.

A reader, listener, I don't know what to call these people anymore. A listener sent in that suggestion. It was a mailbag question that we turned into a full show. Sam Rapson was the listener who sent in that question. I wanted to just call out Sam and give him a shout-out because it was a great question to the point that we turned it into an hour's worth of content. So appreciate Sam doing that and wanted him to at least be acknowledged for his efforts. But let's get into this batch of questions now.

Bellar, let's kick it off. All right. Appreciate Joey Hickman getting us going. He's got a very simple question right to the point. What is something about football that you believed 10 years ago, 100% with all your heart that you no longer believe now. Robert, what do you got for this one? I have a few of them. I think that if you, and this kind of ties into another question we're going to answer a little bit later in the mailbag. But when I started covering the NFL 2012, 2013, I guess there were a couple different things in that stretch that I just don't know would be possible today. In 2012, the first year I covered the league full-time, Adrian Peterson was the MVP of the NFL. I can't imagine what would have to line up at this point for a running back to win MVP. And if it was going to happen, Sequan probably would have done it last year. So that's just something where the overall impact of running backs, even if it's vacillated and even if I think we've come back around a little bit to a place that makes a little bit more sense,

obviously that has shifted in the last 10 years. But I think the other thing that was happening right around that time, you know, the Seahawks, won the Super Bowl in 2013, the Broncos won the Super Bowl in 2015. I think there was still a moment where defense could win you a championship. Your defense could be so good that the Seahawks offense was good on a rate basis, but the defense carried them. The Broncos, the offense in 2015 was bad. It was like an actively bad group, and they won the Super Bowl.

I just don't know how possible that is anymore. And then two more quick ones. I think just changes in my attitudes about scrambling quarterbacks and just how much value scrambling has. When you're talking about the league in 2012, a lot of the discourse about running quarterbacks was design runs because that was the moment where a lot of that read option stuff was really prevalent in the league. Robert Griffin, Colin Kaepernick, Russell Wilson at the time. And I don't think we really thought about the value added in scrambling. And I think some of the advanced statistics that we have now help us understand that a little bit more. So just how

much scrambling plays into whether a quarterback is elite and can be elite as part of it. And the last one for me is I think that this has happened probably in the last four or five years. I'm a little bit more hesitant about how much I'm buying into like what the flavor of the day is schematically and like which trends are hot because I think that the development, the innovation curve in the league has become so depressed because of how flat the information movement is that I think things are going around and coming back around so quickly that if you're chasing whatever the hot thing is you're already going to be a half step behind. So I think just how much these trends matter and whether or not we should be buying into them full scale, that is something I've become

a little bit more lukewarm about. That's a really good one because they're still important to talk about, right, to explain like why these things are happening in the game. But yeah, to the point of like, oh, everyone needs to do this and everyone needs to hire XYZ coach who's going to install this defense or whatever it is. It's like, yeah, I don't, you know, you're probably a little bit late with stuff like that. My biggest one for me is like, I used to believe that quarterbacks could overcome not having a good enough arm, whether it was, maybe it was some of their scrambling.

Maybe it was like them just being so high mentally, all this other stuff. I just don't believe that anymore. And I think part of that for me was when I really first started covering the game in like 2013, 2014, around then I got invested in quarterbacks, like the position and looking at like how offenses work and all their progressions and how they're getting through defenses. And so to me, I think it was part of like because I enjoyed the puzzle of that that I was like kind of overindexing how important those players were.

Like the last one where I really was like no more of this was Jake Fromm coming out of Georgia where I was like, man, he just gets the game. But his arm's not good enough. And I was like, it'll be fine. He'll get to the NFL and he'll just be such a good processor that it'll be okay. And then he gets to the NFL and he flames out in like three years because he just didn't have the arm. And I do think at a certain point, you just have to be talented enough. and I used to believe that you could overcome that. That just doesn't.

I think you can to the degree where you can be like a Gardner Minshu, right? Where his arm is way below the NFL threshold and you can be a, you know, stick around for 8, 10 years and be a backup or whatever. But to crack into that like top 10, 12, you got to hit the threshold or you're just screwed. I have a theory as to why that might have happened for you in like 2012, 2013. At that point, we still had Brady, Manning, Breeze, all of these guys kind of getting. into the back half of their careers, and their arms had started to diminish. Yep. But I think there's two things going on there.

One, that's 15 years of processing information that allows them to play that way with diminished arm strength. You don't have that stepping into the league with diminished arm strength. And the other part of it is, I think that people who started watching the league in 2012, 2013, just don't understand what kind of arms Peyton Manning and Drew Brees had when they were younger and more physically gifted. So I think for two different reasons, there's a tendency in that stretch of the league to misunderstand what traits you need and what ratios in order to be successful in the NFL

as a quarterback. That's what it is because, like, I, like, I remember how good, like, Peyton's arm and stuff was, but he got away with it being weaker once he got to Denver. Drew Breeze got away with it being weaker once, you know, he was towards the tailings of Norton. So I was like, well, if they can do it, why not? And it took me a little bit to realize exactly what you said of like, well, they've been doing it for 15 years.

no shit they figured out how to calibrate their arm to being able to figure that out. Philip Rivers is another good example. Like at the end, Philip Rivers with the Colts in 2020, I mean, he wasn't like ripping the ball outside the numbers, but he was playing the game at such a level mentally that it just didn't really matter anymore. But it's so, so hard to get to that place. And bringing it back around to one of the things that I said, I think this is one of the reasons that I've kind of had to recalibrate which kinds of quarterbacks I think can be

successful in the league. because that bridge of, all right, I don't have the mental acuity to survive that way yet because I'm too young and I don't have the physical skill set. Well, it used to be in a place where if you didn't have the mental acuity, you could be protected by your defense in your running game. Right. Like, there was a way for you to bridge that gap from a quarterback who could win with his, that couldn't win with his brain yet to one who could when you were insulated by everything else.

Now, I think it's so much more difficult to be insulated by everything else. that unless you don't have a certain prerequisite level of physical talent, escapability, the ability to move in the pocket, how you bridge that gap has become much more difficult in today's NFL because there's so much more of an onus on the quarterback immediately, even if you're a young quarterback. They have to earn it by being a scrambler, by having a super strike.

It's the stuff we talked about with Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson and all that stuff before. All right. Let's get to our next one, Barr. All right, here we go. Zach Glenning says, I've only gotten into the NFL the past four years or so, and I hear all the old names and stats thrown around enough to get a general feel for which players and teams were very good. My question is, what are the most impactful, significant, or any entertaining games from

each decade I should go back and watch? Obviously, rewatching every season is impractical, and not all Super Bowls are created equal, so which specific games are worth going back to experience? Derek, what do you got for this one? That's a tricky one, because I'm also fairly young, so it's hard for me to know how how far back I can really go with some of this stuff. I kept mine in like the last 15 years or so. And like the modern era of the NFL,

just because I think going to go back any further than that is difficult. So I was just trying to like carve out the arc of what the league has looked like since I started really paying attention to and covering the league. That's how I handled it. Like, why is today's NFL the way that it is? So some of the ones that I went with were the Packers 49ers Divisional Championship game where Kaepernick just goes berserk, where they did not understand how to defend the read option.

That is a really good one. I think that kind of explains a lot of things. The 2016 Super Bowl, not just because it was like an incredible game and all that stuff in the 28 to 3, but like that was when the Shanahan offense and that team really rose into prominence. So I think that's a really important one. The 2018 Rams, I had two.

Obviously you can watch the Super Bowl and I think like why teams were able to defend them then. But I actually went back a little bit further. The week 14 Chicago game, or Vic Fangio just shreds them and like really put them in a headlock and in that offense. It was like, oh, you can stop this now. I think that's actually really important to understand how we got here. And then the other more fun like niche one, go back and watch Mahomes' first start, his rookie year.

It was the last game of the season just to like appreciate what he is now. I think it's a very fun thing to do every now and then. This is very funny. You picked a lot of the same ones that I did thematically, like the type of stuff you want to get across. So I went back a little bit further than this in trying to describe why the modern NFL is the way that it is. The first game that I started with is the 2003 AFC championship game between the Patriots and the Colts for a couple different reasons. You get a sense of what the Patriots were before Tom Brady was like an absolute superstar when they were winning with like physicality and defense. And then obviously that game literally changes the rules.

The rules of the NFL change because of that game and offense becomes a lot easier. And I think obviously we're still in that place. So that being the catalyst for how we stepped into this offense over defense kind of mode in the NFL, I think is an important step. Going chronologically here, you have to go back and watch the 2007 Patriots in some way just to understand, one, the sheer level of dominance what Brady and Moss were that year. But also just the way that the game started to spread out in 2007. that was the moment where we went to a place where it was more shotgun than under center for the first time. And obviously now that's where we live. So the game that I would throw out, I remember vividly watching this game.

It was week six, the Patriots in Miami. Tom Brady went 21 of 25 with six touchdowns in that game. And Moss had like four catches for 122 yards and two touchdowns. Welker had like a dozen catches in that game. That to me was like the moment. it. They had had really nice games before this, but that was the moment where I was like, we're dealing with something different here and I don't really understand how to wrap my mind around it. So that one is a very important one for me. You mentioned the Packers and

Niners' Divisional Round game. I was at that game and I think that's a good one. I just said any important Seahawks Niners game from 2013 or 2014 because I think that allows you to understand a few different things. One, stylistically, what was working at quarterback at the time, how we were running quarterbacks at the time. And two, some of like the run game stuff that the Niners are doing, I think still really matters. And then the last part of it is just the stylistic defense that the Seahawks were playing. So the fact that that defense was so good and then it became the defense dejeure and

what everyone was chasing schematically, that stretch is really, really important. Keep going chronologically. 2018, I think you can put three Rams games on there to understand the arc of how football happened from like 2018 to 2020. Okay? The first one, the Monday night game between the Rams and the Chiefs in 2018. So with that game, you have two things. You have the Rams offense at like the peak of its powers.

And then you have Mahomes as a rookie. So you kind of get an understanding of what he was that year. It was a crazy, crazy game if you've never seen it. It was like 55 to 51. It was a moment where everyone was like football is. Yes. And everyone in the moment was like football is different now. This is how football is going to be.

well, fast forward like three months, and you get all those games where the Rams D offense just completely shut down. And so I had the Rams Patriot Super Bowl in there as like the next stage in that evolution. And then the last Rams game that I would watch is the Rams Bengals Super Bowl. Because then you get the response to why that other stuff wasn't working. And then the other nice part of that is you get to watch Aaron Donald win the Super Bowl. And you get to watch him have like a dominant play. And so just getting what he was. at that time.

And then the last game, I would say, is the 13 seconds game. Because it's a very good explanation of how the NFL has gone in the last like five years, where you have this Bill's team that is every bit a Super Bowl caliber team. And you have Josh Allen playing at that level. And it just doesn't fucking matter. And I think that is a very good moment and a very good way to understand what the NFL has been like essentially since like 2020. That's exactly along the same lines of like having to go back and watch.

the 07 Patriots where you really need to appreciate who was dominating the league at the time. The 13 seconds game is such a perfect one. I did not even think of doing with the Rams where you get the full arc getting to the other Super Bowl with the Bengals, but that is so perfect because it was they literally traded away the quarterback who you just talked about two minutes ago was able to put up 50 points against the Chiefs. And then a couple of years later, he's gone and then they win the Super Bowl with Matt Stafford. Yeah, you got to close the loop there.

So I think those three, even though they're the same team, they give you a really good snapshot of the league. The last one I would throw out there, I don't remember which week this was, but there was a game that JJ Watt played against the Bills. It was like a regular season game on Sunday afternoon. Yes. And I want to say he didn't have a sack in this game, but I think he had like 15 pressures and he had a pick six for a touchdown.

That's a moment where I think it's important to go back and understand how good J.J. Watt was if you're going to really get a full picture of what the NFL has. been in the last 15 or 20 years. Yeah, that was, that was harder to rack my brain for, like just a specific individual performance to explain it out. But that JJ Walk game, that's the best one probably. It's a random game. It's like week five or six.

I remember watching it in a bar. And I was just like, this is the best game I've ever seen a defensive player play. And he actually didn't have a sack in the game. I bow. What's our next one? Okay. Jack Wilborn says, you know, Robert, we are not so different. You and I.

You cheer for the bears. I, the Patriots. But our team's fate seem very much aligned as of late. both spent first round picks on quarterbacks in two recent QB heavy drafts. Both have lacked even halfway decent offensive play callers. It's with this that I ask the following. Are either Justin Fields or Mack Jones busts, where they busts the moments they didn't get a second contract, or have they merely underperformed like many draft picks do?

And then he gets into a further question of what even makes a bust. He says that he thinks draft position and pre-draft hype have to be there, but what's the cutoff is being drafted in the first round or requirement, or could a high-profile prospect who slid also be bust worth? Shudder Sanders was maximally hyped but slid to round five. So could he be bustworthy? While what makes a bust will always be somewhat vibes-based, I would love to hear your guy's professional take on the subject.

So Robert, why don't you take this one first? First thing I'll say, I don't use that word and never will. I just don't think that is the right way to talk about players. Like these are people who have reached the pinnacle of their profession. And often these guys will stick in the league, even if they don't turn out to be the players we expected them to be. like Blaine Gabbard's been in the NFL for 15 years. You know how hard it is to be one of the 60 best people in the world at what you do?

So I just think that the tone with which we talk about players who didn't live up to expectations is a wholly different conversation. But I do think it's worth mentioning here. Like I don't call guys a draft busts. Guys can be disappointing relative to expectations. I think that's what I would say. When it comes to whether the guys reach that threshold and they do live up to what we wanted them to be, to me it's mostly about. second contracts. Like, did you get a second contract with a team that drafted you?

And if you didn't get a second contract, were you worth enough where the gap isn't that big? Perfect example here for me is like, George Pickens does not work out with the Steelers, but they still get a third round pick trading George Pickens to the Cowboys. So by the end of your rookie contract, what sort of value do you still have, whether it's an extension for your current team or whether it's something that you can fetch in a trade for another team? if you get either of those boxes checked,

I think that you probably lived up to expectations. Reaching a second contract with the team is extremely hard. There just aren't that many picks that end up doing it. And so I think that's typically the line I draw whether this was a successful draft pick or not. And then you can take it a step further. If you get that contract with another team and you net like a cop pick that's not that far away

from where you were drafted, I would also consider that like a success. Like Trey Hendrickson was not a bust. with the Saints because he didn't sign a contract with the Saints. Like he was a good player. The Saints just couldn't afford to keep him. I'm so glad you're framing it this way because I feel like the word bus gets thrown around for anybody who's just like not a pro bowler every single year.

Like people obviously I'm the I'm Trevor Lawrence's attorney. But like a lot of people will go and call Trevor Lawrence a bus. I'm like even if you think he's only an average NFL starter. That's what I'm saying. Like even if you only think he's an average NFL starter. Do you understand how hard? it is to be an average NFL starting quarterback. Like, that's really damn hard.

And so I'm so glad you're framing it this way. For me, I kind of approach you more from like the who would even get to qualify for it. Like obviously any first round pick, you know, you're high enough. And then I think once we get into second round picks, it can be a matter of like pre-draft type based on like some got sometimes guys are just like super flashy college players that just fall a little bit for X, Y, and Z. But to me, it's like once you fall past the second, most third round picks and beyond don't really work out anyway. So it's not even really worth considering guys that busts in that frame anyway. So to me it's basically like top 50 picks and then it's a little bit of a sliding scale based on pre-draft type. But to even answer the specific questions, like, if Schroeder Sanders doesn't work out, is he considered a bust?

Well, no, he was a fifth round pick. Like, most of them don't work out. So I'm not going to consider that. But if, you know, Jackson Dart or Cam Ward don't work out, then yeah, that's, you know, by the definition of what this is a bust. But I don't really like using that word either because, like, Justin Fields, even in the question is a great example, right? Like he didn't work out with his original team, isn't what you wanted out of the 10th or 12th pick or whatever, he's probably going to stick around for like five, six more years. And that's really, really difficult to do.

Yeah. I just think that, again, there's at a certain point, like, we should have some respect in the way that we talk about NFL players and how hard their jobs are and how hard it is to be successful at them. When it comes to where you get picking the draft, that's always typically how I've looked at it. There's probably, I'm sure there are numbers that support this, like what the hit rate is and how often a second or third round pick becomes a starter. Just anecdotally in my mind, I've always treated it as players picked in the first two rounds should be starters.

Players picked in the third round and beyond, if you get something out of them, that's a good thing. But if that guy never is a consistent starter for you, I don't think that's necessarily a disappointment or a letdown based on the expectations you had for that individual player. All right, guys, we are going to get to our first break of the show and then we'll be back with a bunch more questions. Benjamin Andreas writes in and says as a Packers fan, I was excited this offseason by all the potential blue chip pass rushers, potentially looking for trades with NBA-style player movement possible. Unlike the NBA, most of those guys ended up working it out with their own team.

And it got me wondering how many chances each offseason there are to add elite talent externally and has that declined over time as teams get more protective. Does that change the price you'd pay in a deal as a team lacking that talent? It's an interesting question. What do you got for us, Robert? It was very funny. was thinking about this last night just like at my house and then forgot that it was one of the mailbag questions that we were going to answer today. And I was thinking about it for this reason. One of the benefits to having cap space over the last 10 years or so, essentially since the

rookie salary scale has been put into place, is that you could make really splashy moves for players that teams just didn't think were worth paying. Like this guy's just gotten too expensive. There's a few different examples I'm thinking of. Like the Stefan digs trade. Right. the bill is trade a first round picks for Stefan Diggs. They have all this cap space because they have Josh Allen on a rookie deal. They can absorb it instantly. And even the AJ Brown trade to an extent is kind of like this where the Titans are like, yeah, we can't afford to pay him.

We're going to try to do the exact same thing. And they failed in doing it. As the cap has exploded and as teams have gotten more creative in the ways that they're using void years, stretching out bonuses, things like that, who's the best player that changed teams over the last couple years. Like, who is it? Oh, that's a great question. AJ Brown, to me, is the last, like, elite player that was traded.

And so I think that this is a combination of players available on the trade market and also just how shitty free agent classes are consistently getting. So I think we're getting to a place where if you're not drafting well and you're not creating or finding good players in-house, all those benefits are really. resources, they start to become less important because there are fewer reasons and fewer applications where teams are saying, eh, we can't pay this guy. For the most part, teams are paying everybody they want to outside of a couple specific examples. Even the Bengals would Trey Hendrickson. Like that would typically be an example where it's like, all right, they just can't do this.

And even they are hesitant to trade a guy like that. So I think we're just getting to a place where there are going to be fewer and fewer elite players available on the veteran market, either through trades or free agency. And that means if you don't develop your guys in house, it doesn't matter what sort of resources you can throw around. Those splashy additions feel like they're going to be harder to come by moving forward. And I think that's especially true at certain positions past rush, like pass rusher. Like how do you replace a pro bowl pass rusher?

Probably a first round pick. You probably got to go spend a first round pick on the next guy. And at that point, then you're kind of locking yourself into what you're doing. on draft weekend, which you probably don't want to do that either. So it kind of comes with its own set of complications. I also think it's slightly different in terms of what teams are willing to give up for a player in the NFL versus the NBA. In the NBA, you've got five players on the court. So bringing in one superstar has such an outsized impact on what is happening every single time they are on the court. With the NFL, obviously,

one player can still have a huge impact, but there's just more players on the field at a given time and your rosters are way bigger. Like it's sometimes a little bit harder to justify spending three first round picks on a player if it's not a quarterback when it's only going to be, you know, this is one cornerback for us where it's one pass rush. And obviously there are incredible players who have a high impact there. But at a certain point, it's like teams are just not willing to give up that much when it's one of the 53 players that you're rostering on a given day. Yeah. And I think it gets to a point where trying to, here's a force analogy. it's kind of like trying to buy a house, right?

And if there's one house available in the neighborhood and you know you need to pay three times as much for that house, you're going to be hesitant to do it. But the people that are moving, they're going to have to do the same thing for another house. Like if the Browns had traded, it gotten three first round picks for Miles Garrett. I understand in the moment how that's great. But it's just like, oh, wait a second, the next Miles Garrett costs two and a half first round picks.

So we didn't really do anything for ourselves. And so I think that, it comes. from a couple different directions, the supply and the demand side of this, that's why there's just been a little bit of a stalemate in that sort of movement, because both parties are looking at those pads and just being like, I don't know if this is worth it. Like, I'd rather just roll with what we have right now because the uncertainty isn't worth taking on. And there's more uncertainty in the NFL. Like if, a great example with Miles Garrett, if the Browns traded Miles Garrett, they're probably, it would be hard for them to go out and trade for Trey Hendrickson or whoever it is for another ex-passer.

Where in the NBA, I feel like you can give up one superstar and you just go get a different one. Like it's so much easier to find the next guy in the NBA compared to the NFL, it feels like. Let's say you get two first-round picks from Miles Garrett and there's a 50% hit rate on first-round picks, period. One of those first-round picks is probably going to work out. One of them is not. And what's the best case scenario in that? one of them becomes 70% as good as Miles Garrett. And so I think that's why both sides in a lot of these are just sitting there being like,

I just can't justify this. The price is too much on both ends because of how little supply there is for these truly elite players in a given off season. Okay, guys, the next question is from Philip Coup. And Philip says, I was listening to your second year QB show and it got me thinking about how we think and talk about players in their situations. Drake May gets a pass for not winning games because he played well in a bad situation. Sequin probably didn't get enough love during his time in New York because of the situation. Trevor Lawrence gets a top of market deal despite not really earning it because his situation has depressed his play. If Caleb Williams succeeds this year, it will be an interesting discussion about whether he has improved or the situation has.

So my question is this. When you're watching players, what are some of the things you're looking for to try to separate out scheme, supporting cast and opponent in your assessment of that player? Derek, why don't you start us off on this one? It's hard because it can very quickly become a slippery slope, right? But to me, it's just like how, who is really messing up? Because obviously it's easy to look at the stats and be like, oh, ex-player is not playing up to the level that he deserves. And obviously Trevor Lawrence is a good example of this.

But if you watch a lot of those Jaguars teams, offensive line was disgusting last year. It was one of the worst in the NFL. But then to me, it's also like to the point of like accuracy with quarterbacks. You know, I've talked about this with a number of different receivers. Okay, so Joe Burrow, actually, I'm going to go with a very good analogy or a better example. Joe Burrow is a naturally accurate quarterback, right? But he gets to look even more accurate than he is

because Jamar Chase comes back to the ball better than anyone else in the league. And T. Higgins is pretty damn close. Whereas he watched Trevor Lawrence and the players that he's working with with the Jaguars, Christian Kirk is a good player. He doesn't do a lot of that. And some of the other players that they were throwing to, especially once they had to work down the depth chart last year, some of their landmarks were wrong,

just not agreeing on where certain stuff should be. Even Brian Thomas Jr. for the first like eight, 10 weeks of the season, there were certain overrouts where he's coming. down a little bit towards the end and Trevor Lawrence is throwing it high. And they're just like disagreeing on where the route should be. And so I think that gets into a lot of it. And then scheme stuff, that can obviously get a little bit trickier, but sometimes that at the end of day, it just comes down to like how often is the wide receiver wide ass open. And that can be, it can literally be that simple sometimes. And with some quarterbacks, it's not a lot. And sometimes

it's, you know, you watch a Kyle Shanahan team and it's all the time. I think if at a very, very, very simple level. When the quarterback gets to the top of his drop and you pause the tape, what does it look like? That's a good one. Is there somebody in his lap? Is there a free rusher coming open? Is he already having to move off his spot? Is there anybody with any sort of separation? And what is leading to that lack of separation? You know, the example we used with Caleb Williams the other day was Keenan Allen on some of these vertical routes within that Bears' offense that made no sense. When you're watching that play and you're seeing how those players are struggling, is there an application of those players that would free them from that struggle?

Like if you're DJ Moore and you have a really hard time creating separation in one-on-one situations on the line of scrimmage, isn't there a way to potentially remove him from those spots and put him in better spots? So I think it's difficult when you kind of have it all. It's untangling at all is very, very hard. But on a very basic level, it's just like, all right, at the top of the drop, what does the offense look like? And then I think that extends you to what the pass protection looks like, what the deployment

of the receivers looks like. How are they manufacturing separation within the offense? Are they doing it with motions and bunches and stacks? I think that that moment and everything that leads to that moment, that to me is the simplest way to understand how much the situation is impacting things and how much the quarterback is impacting things before and after that pause moment happens. And it is hard too, because sometimes you do have to calibrate for each quarterback's play style, which then again gets into like this whole slippery slope thing of it all.

because like, Dak Prescott throws into more tight windows than most other quarterbacks. Some of that is because the Dallas Cowboys receivers outside of CD Lamoral, not all that good. But he also throws more seam routes than anyone in the NFL. And seam routes just like, you don't separate on a seam route. Yeah, they're not open.

They're never open. Yeah, they're not open. They're open because the quarterback can put the ball there. And Dak Prescott is very willing to do that. But on like a dig route, for example, like if the receiver is good enough, that should be open. But some quarterback get to throw it to guys. where the digger outs open all the time and some don't and it's just a matter of like trying to

calibrate for what routes should be open if that makes sense and then like based on how much does the quarterback like to throw that certain stuff like again Dak Prescott with the seam routes it's never going to look open and it might look like the guy's not getting open and that's not his fault listen man that's just how DAC operates and you just have to live with that sometimes the thing i come back to and again this is an oversimplification but if i was trying to boil it down, how cohesive does it all feel? Does it all feel like each individual component of the offense, the way that players are used, how certain concepts tie together? Are they all parts of the same hole? When you look at them all in totality, do they complement one another? Does it make sense?

And I think you just see that over time. Like, we were talking about this with the Patriots. And I think people lose their minds when you try to talk about things this way. But like, you watch the Patriots offense and the players aren't good, but it does feel cohesive enough. Like the quarterback has a shot. There's a plan. It all makes sense to a degree. It's not what like Sean McVeigh and Kyle Shanahan are doing, but you clear a certain bar where the quarterback at least has an ability to operate competently within these circumstances. And then there are other offenses where the players individually are significantly better, but that lack of cohesion means that the talent is almost inconsequential. We've talked about this a lot. What sort of multiplier is your play caller? If you have average players and you're, play caller makes them 150% better individually, then the lack of talent ceases to matter. Well, if you have a play caller that makes each individual player half of the player that he's supposed to be, again, the talent ceases to matter. And so all of these things play into what situation is.

And so many people have been like, all of you said that Caleb Williams had the best situation ever for a rookie quarterback stepping in her first overall pick. And now it was a bad situation? Well, on paper, the players were good. but then you watch it in practice and there's zero cohesion to anything so the talent individually of those players starts to matter less. And I can get why this is a frustrating conversation for people, but at a very simple level, things change.

You should recalibrate your expectations, your opinions of things as you get new information. And that's what happened with both the Bears and the Patriots and the Washington situation over the course of those guys as rookie years. And the cohesion point is the. great one. There's obviously multiple ways to try to formulate that, right? But another one that I think I always go back to with certain guys. And I think this was really important when Jared Goff first became good with Sean McVeigh. How often is, especially for rookie quarterbacks, how often is this guy in like third and eight? Like or like how often are they with the six? Because obviously

rookie Jared Goff, buddy, they were in third and eight all the time. They were running into brick walls and nobody was open. They didn't have a dropback passing game. So he was just in these horrible situations all the time, didn't know what he was doing, wasn't a scrambler, so he's just getting smoked in the pocket all the time. But then you watch him literally the next year, Sean McVeigh comes in, recalibrates the entire offense, they're able to run and stay ahead of the sticks. And obviously, Sean McVeigh did a bunch with just really good passing concepts as well, but they were just in easier and more cohesive situations for Goff to operate.

And then he just looks like a way different player. And Caleb Williams, obviously, is the best example of that last year, right? where they're a team that could never run the ball early, really struggled to just get off of the platform on first and tens, and then everything just starts to unravel from there. Yeah, I totally agree with that. And the last thing I'll say here is the Drake May,

getting a pass for not winning games, guys, who is going to win games? Yeah, what are we doing here? It's, I do think this idea of whether quarterbacks, a wins or a quarterback stat,

I think over a 10-year period, yes, like the quarterback is so important, that if you are a certain level of quarterback, you're going to win more often than not. But when you boil it down to smaller time periods than that, they absolutely aren't. Like, in eight years, we can talk about whether Drake May wins enough games. But even somebody like Justin Herbert, who people say this stuff about, I want people, right, just when you're listening to this show, pull up pro football reference,

go to the individual pages for Peyton Manning and Justin Herbert. Look at their records and stats in their first five seasons, including the playoffs and just sit with that for a second. And just this stuff, it takes a long time. There's only 16 games a season and there's only like one or two playoff games. In order to get a significant chunk of games to properly understand this stuff, it takes a really, really, really long time. And for a lot of these quarterbacks, they are too young for us to be making any sort of

proclamations about who they are at this point in their careers because we just don't have enough information. I hate the playoff thing. I don't even want to talk about a quarterback's playoff success until like after their rookie deal. Like you're just like a 24 year old walking into the playoffs man. It's shit's hard.

Even that. Even that. Again, look at the first five seasons of Peyton Manning's career. Just that's all I'll say. They're the same. The records are the same. The stats are the same. The playoff failings are the same.

Like this stuff is true until it's not. And so I think that idea of like, well, there's not winning enough games. It's like takes a while. to actually understand who is and is not winning enough games. All right, guys, Wendell Ferreira asked the next question. He says, how should a team balance the pursuit of consistency with the temptation or pressure to go all in during a perceived championship window?

Packers' GM Brian Gutakunst has said that he doesn't believe in Windows and prefers to stick to the process, but even he stretched the cap during Aaron Rogers' final seasons. At the same time, we've seen teams hurt themselves with desperate win now moves, often trading picks or overspending for veterans past their peak. So what's the ideal approach? How can a team smartly maximize a window without sabotaging its long-term health? How does it even know when it's truly in a window when it's time to retreat or whether it should just keep building steadily and trust that contention will come? Robert, why do you take this one first?

It's a great question. And Nathan Murillo asked us what might be the time for the Ravens to make like a more aggressive swing for a quality edge rusher given like the relative strength of their roster. Like that's a specific example of this. I hate to say this because it's not a fun answer. It's almost never a good idea to overextend yourself for these guys. Even the examples where it has worked, I think it's more about the luck of the draw than it is this was a sound decision. The perfect example of this is the Rams in 2021. The Rams trading what they did for Von Miller and going out and getting Odell Beckham.

And obviously they didn't give up that much for Beckham. But the Von Miller trade is like a big trade. They traded away multiple mid-round picks to go out and get Von Miller. It worked. They won the Super Bowl. It's amazing. And I support teams being aggressive in order to win championships, because I think that's what the point of this is at the end of the day. But that example is an outlier when you compare to the rest of the examples. A lot of these moves are typically not worth it. And so I think the middle ground to me is hang on to your draft picks. Keep the draft picks. The draft picks you will want them in order to offset what I'm about to say. in certain stretches, I think it's worth being a little bit more aggressive financially. To me, the best possible example of this is the Bucks.

With the Bucks and Tom Brady, if you look at the way they manage their cap before Brady and after, this was always a team, no dead money, they never stretched out contracts, no void years, none of that funny stuff. Well, Brady gets there and they're like, we have a chance now. Like, we should do this. And they did things and pulled levers they never would have otherwise. But other than that, they were still sound in some of the things they were doing. They weren't throwing draft picks around.

There was like a mitigated level of aggression. And I think that has allowed them to kind of dismount from the Brady period in a way that would be more difficult if they were combining some of those financial shortcuts with trading away draft picks. The bills are like this. Like the bills spent a ton of cash over like a several years span, the Von Miller contract. And now they're pulling back on that a little bit because they have to. So I think a couple of year stretches, if you want to throw around a lot of cash, do some things to play with the cap in ways you otherwise wouldn't and take on that risk, that's probably worth it.

I think aggressive trades for veterans very rarely do those work out in the ways that you want them to. Yeah, the Rams are, the Rams are, they're the exception to the rule. They're the reason you don't do that is because you look at, there could be 10 other examples of teams that tried to do what the Rams did and it didn't work. I'm like, yes, exactly. that is such a good example. And like there's so many teams try stuff like this and it just does not work out for them. To me, it's it's simple and sometimes football is a really simple game. If you have a quarterback good enough and you draft, having enough draft picks helped you draft.

But if you have a good quarterback and you draft well enough to keep the floor of your team high, eventually you're just going to get lucky sometimes. And like that's an unsatisfying answer. But ultimately that's kind of what the playoffs are. Like you get a little bit lucky in some of these. We play a one game format. in the playoffs. Other sports don't do that. I think being a little bit aggressive and really trying to hammer home on windows in sports where you are playing extended series and really have to

over the course of a series exert yourself over your opponent, that's important. In football, you can kind of just get hot for a little bit. And so I think consistently leaving the floor high for yourself, not over-exerting yourself for these one-year windows, that to me is more important. And again, like you said, you can get a little bit aggressive with the cap every now and then, maybe make one or two of these smaller trades, but I don't think ever really over-indexing yourself for a first-round pick, multiple second-round picks,

you're usually digging a hole that you're not going to get out of. I agree with that. I think a really good example of this, again, going back to the bills, the Joey Bosa contract this year to me is the type of swing a team that's close should take. So it's a one year, $12 million, $12 million, $1.5 million deal for Joey Bosa.

There are four void years on that deal. So Joey Bosa's cap hit this year is $5.3 million. and it'll be $7.2 million next year, I believe. That to me, it's like, okay, you know, that you're stretching yourself, that is an aggressive move and an aggressive contract, but that's where you are right now. The Odell Beckham deal is almost identical to this and like what the Ravens were trying to do.

Some of these are going to work out, some of them are not. But I think when you're in this sort of position, these little focused strikes where you're like, maybe I wouldn't take this sort of risk on this sort of player if I wasn't in a championship window. Well, you are. But the downside of this is $7.2 million in dead money the following year. That's not nothing, but it's not a second round pick that you're going to be sitting there in April after you didn't win the Super Bowl and be like, oh, man, it'd be really nice to have the 60 second pick in the draft right now.

And I also think teams in a lot of ways are just bad at understanding what their window actually looks like. Correct. The Texas tried to trade for Stefan Diggs. And obviously that like draft pick wise, it wasn't a whole lot. but they had to pay them a lot of money, and they instantly blow up and are one of the worst offenses in the league. It's like sometimes you're just bad

at even calibrating what your window is. And I get it, you know, the sports are about confidence, right? You want to be confident in your players and the way you've built this thing and all that. And so you make one aggressive swing that's supposed to put it over the top. But we over, we overestimate how good we are a lot of the time

and teams love to do that. Yeah, I 100% agree with that. I think this just goes back to this idea of, there's just overconfidence, and understanding everything when it comes to professional sports, which players are going to be good. Like, I was railing on the dolphins for trading out for Jonas Savinea in the draft. And it's like, I understand that they need a guard, but they don't have enough of an

understanding about which guys are going to be good and which guys are going to be bad to be to be giving away mid-round picks. Like, this is one of the oldest axioms in like advanced stats and economic thinking in the NFL. Like the loser's curse and going back to what those guys were writing about like 10 years ago when it comes to how overconfident teams are and their ability to identify talent, that extends to a lot of different elements of being a general manager in the NFL. You know less than you think you do. And I think acknowledging that as often as you can is most often going to put you in the best

possible positions. Okay, guys, let's get to our final break of the episode and then we will return and answer a few more questions. All right, we come out of break with Connor McNamee. He says, Hey guys, I have a question for you that came up as I was listening to the second year quarterback show. When talking about Bo Nix and Michael Pennix, you made several references to the fact that they lack creativity despite impressive arm strength, athleticism, etc. This got me thinking, how would you actually define creativity at the position? And who are the QBs with the most impressive physical tools that you'd like to see more creativity from or any guys who stand out as being creative in spite of more limited athleticism? This is like such a perfect athletic football show

question. Derek, take this one first. it's a great question because as I was thinking about it, the more I thought about it, I was like, the more I consider what is creativity, it's like a lot of it blends together with my definition of just being aggressive. And so the more I thought about it. Interesting. Yeah, like that's just kind of how I thought about it. Because with Michael Penix and Bonnick specifically, I think the reason I don't consider them very creative players is they are so quick to check the ball down. Michael Penix will do this. And it can be like a good thing, Like it means you're not getting sacked as much.

So it's not like an all bad thing. But they are usually so quick to abort the play and just get on to the next thing. Derek Carr was like this for a lot of his career where he was just one, two, boom, check down. We're going to move on. And he was not a player who wanted to hold onto the ball and really extend plays. And that's tricky with Bo Nix, right? Because he's a very good scrambler. And he runs a lot.

And I do think he has that in his bag. But to me, even though he threw outside of the pocket a lot, a lot of those were designed. It was a lot of boots. There was a lot of sprint outs. And then even when he was outside of the pocket, it wasn't often a lot of the stuff you'll see from Jordan Love, Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, where they are really trying to heave it down the field

and find some bizarre window down the field that you just did not think that they were going to attack. Nix is a lot more willing to like, okay, I have the drag route is coming, you know, right into my face from across the other side of the field. I'm just going to hit that. And that's, again, there's, that's a nice way to play the game. But to me, it's just it doesn't feel as creating.

as what Jordan Love is constantly hunting for. Dak Prescott, Matthew Stafford. It feels like those guys, it's hard to fully grasp and quantify. But when I watch a Matthew Stafford, it feels like he's trying to push the envelope and attack the defense. I don't necessarily feel that way when I watch Bow Nix. And even though Michael Pennix will throw down the field, I just don't feel like he's trying to get through every nook and cranny of the way that the play is designed. he is where he won to get the ball out.

And that's, again, you can play football that way, but I just don't feel like he's trying to find creative answers within the play. That's probably true. And that I think a lot of the players I consider creative are players who are a little bit more aggressive. I think my biggest, the biggest thing with me when talking about this is, when I say player is creative, I mean in the pocket. That, to me, pocket creativity, like, we had a term for it over the last couple years.

Like pocket playmaking to me is different. than being a creative player outside of the pocket. Talking about guys who have impressive physical tools that you'd like to see more creativity from. There are two guys that I would throw out that I think are incredible athletes, but are fairly robotic with how they play the position from the pocket. Justin Fields is number one with a bullet, by far the most.

Like he is, Justin Fields is one of the best athletes who's ever played quarterback in the NFL when you're looking at athleticism purely as height weight speed. He is not a creative player from the pocket. He's a very robotic player. And J-1 Hertz is like this. J-1-Hertz is not a creative player from the pocket, even if he's scrambling and doing more stuff outside of the pocket.

His in-pocket play is fairly robotic. On the other side of that, you mentioned his name. I think the guy who, when you look at height, weight speed, is probably a lesser athlete, but is a very creative player from the pocket, is Matthew Stafford. It's the way he's navigating the pocket. It's changing arm angles.

What are you doing? What are you trying to access and what are you able to access that forces you to be moved off your spot or moved off the way that the play is drawn on paper. How are you riffing on that idea from that space? I think that Matthew Stafford is the perfect example of that. To meet Jordan Love and C.J. Stroud are both created players from the pocket, even if they're not running around a lot. You think about some of that Stroud stuff where, especially in his rookie year,

where he's not stepping into throws, but the arm angles change. And then Jordan Love with some of the backing up that he does, some of the arm angle things that he does. So the pocket to me is a different sort of conversation. And if you watch Bo Nix and Michael Penix, they're not doing that kind of stuff. They're not sliding. They're not stepping up. They're not being creative within that space. They, if like the thing we talk about with Michael Pennings, if there's somebody in his face, he's not moving. He's not sliding. He's trying to throw like over or around that person. And so I think that to me is what I'm talking about when I talk about creativity. It's this idea of playmaking when you are confined to that space and kind of the

subtle movements with arm angles and with pocket mobility that happens in that area. That's a really good way to put it. I guess I was conceiving a little bit more outside of the pocket, especially in the case of Nix, you almost have to with how much he was outside of the pocket. But it really is the in pocket stuff. Like, can you just, do you know where that little nook and cranny is going to be in the pocket? And can you get to those weird arm angles? And again, And that's why the example I'll go back to you to wrap it up. Lamar Jackson, his rookie year, like towards the end when he started playing more, he kept throwing sidearm.

And people were like, what is he doing? Like, just throw the ball normally. And it's like, no, the fact that he has the confidence to do this, he's going to be all right. And now he has some of the best pocket creativity I've probably ever seen. So let them do that. Yeah, I just, for me, when I say creativity, and this is just something to keep in my moving forward if you listen to the show, when I say creativity, I mean in the past, pocket creativity.

That almost exclusively, that's what I'm talking about. All right, guys. Let's get to our last question of the episode. And it comes to us from Clayton Clifford. Clayton says, I have a question about everyone's favorite teams. I would like to hear who your favorite team to root for as a fan has been over the years. And then which team is one that has sparked your interest as a reporter? His favorite team, the 05 Indianapolis Colts.

He grew up a huge Colts fan. That 05 team holds a special place near and dear to Clayton's heart. You had Peyton Manning, Edgerman James, Marvin. Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Brandon Stokely, Dallas Clark, Taree Glenn, Jeff Saturday, Robert Mathis Dwight Freeney, Bob Sanders with Tony Dungey as the coach and Bill Polly and as the GM, a team filled with Hall of Fame talent.

That was so much fun to watch. He remembers Nick Harper picking up that Jerome Bettis fumble at the goal line. I think we all do, Ben Ruffisberger with the shoestring tackle, and he cried as Mike Vanderjet shanked the field goal that would have tied the game and sent it into overtime. So he wants to hear about our favorite teams. Robert, why do you go first year? Osex Bears. It just is my favorite team of all time.

for a bunch of different reasons. Like the 05 Bears defense was probably better. Like go back and you watch the, go back and look at some of the stats with the 05 Bears defense. It's one of the most ridiculous units that's played in the NFL in the last like two decades. The 05 Bears defense allowed 12.6 points a game. They scored as a team 16.3 points a game. They won 11 and 5.

That's enough. You just need more. That defense was so good. And then they got burned down by Steve Smith in the playoffs. But the reason that it's, 06 is because you have most of the same main characters from that defense and Devin Hester. And that was my freshman year of college. And so it was my first time away from home.

And being able to watch that Bears team, the Monday night game against the Cardinals, like just so many moments from that season kind of making me feel a little bit closer to home, it all just kind of came together in the right way. Like that is my favorite team that I've ever gotten to watch as a fan. And as a reporter, I think the early, early McVeigh Rams are the team that like just made me think about football a little bit differently. And I think I'd probably throw the 2016 Falcons in there as well. Like the 2016 Falcons was, I was four or five years into covering the league. And I remember we did a piece at Grantland at the ringer, excuse me, trying to make like second half predictions.

And the Falcons were like a 500 team through week eight. And I was like, that team's going to the Super Bowl. You just watch the offense I'm like that team's going to the Super Bowl And so I think that a lot of the ways I started changing my tune About how I saw modern football Was attached to that 2016 Falcons team

I mean that's that little era Of him and McVeigh It's like it's if I'm gonna answer that as a reporter Those are probably some of the teams I had a few different answers here I had like kind of the when you go back A little bit younger so for me it's like the mid 2000s bucks these teams were not very good by the way

But they had Jeff Garc and Joey Galloway, there was something about it when I was like 10 years old. I just thought they were so cool. Like Jeff Garcia was a little bit of a wild boy. Galloway was like the fastest player I could have ever seen. And some of those defenses were actually really fun. So those teams, growing up as a kid, like I just really enjoyed watching those teams. My favorite ever covering the sport, and this is no surprise to anybody who knows me, that

2015 Panthers team is special to me. Like what Cam Newton, it's obviously what Cam Newton did holds a lot of that weight. but Thomas Davis and Luke Keeckley being what they were for that defense. For as much as I love linebackers, like Keeckley to me, for as much as I gush about what Cam Newton is, Luke Keeckley to me is probably my favorite defensive player I've ever seen. So those two having the years that they did together was just like, this team is incredible. And then I actually had a college answer, which is the 2017 Alabama, their secondary. It was Minka Fitzpatrick and Ronnie Harrison at safety.

And then at corner, they had Levi Wallace and Anthony Averett. And that's a bunch of NFL players. Obviously, Mink is way better than the rest of them. But I have never seen a unit that well coached and cohesive. And so watching it while I'm trying to learn defenses and learn the saving system, it was just like this perfect. I loved everything about watching that defense and how it felt. This is some hipster fucking bullshit.

The Jeff Garcia Bucks and the Levi Wallace Anthony Averitt, Alabama secondary, is just one hell of an answer here, sir. I thought Anthony Avery was going to be so good, man. I held on to hope for like three years when he was with the Ravens. That's incredible. Oh, one Bears. It was the first Bears team that was like good in my lifetime, at least that I remember. I was like 10 years old, the 94 season when they like upset the Vikings in the first round of the playoffs.

But you know, you're 10 years old. You don't really care about that. The 01 Bears that went 13 and 3 that had no business going 13 and 3 back to back. Mike Brown overtime walk off. pick sixes the first one against the nineers the second one against the browns they only get to the overtime against the browns because they hit a hail merry to james allen to force overtime and then mike brown does it again it was just it was so much fun my brown was so good dude my brown was so good i love the linebacker group i was earlier you know young er locker so he was unbelievable and then you had rooseville colvin and

warwick holdman as the other linebackers on the team they were so much fun and i was i would have been 17 that season. And there's just when one of your teams is really good and fun between the ages of like 12 and 18, like junior high and high school, they're just something special about that. There's something unique about that. And that was the first one that I had like that. So that team just will always hold a special place in my heart, even if they got embarrassed by the Eagles in the first round of the play. The division, they got it by, but in the divisional round of the playoffs, did not go so well for them against the Eagles. But I will always love that 0.1 Bears team. not a good team.

It reminds me a little bit of like the 13 and 3 Vikings of all time. As soon as you said 13 wins, I was like, the Vikings were kind of that way. Jim Miller, Jim Miller to Marty Booker was the big connection on that team. Marty Booker is still one of the most productive receivers in Bears history. That's all you need to know about the history of Bears receivers. There was also an unbelievable moment that season where the Bears drafted David Terrell

and Anthony Thomas both from Michigan. And then they sang his seventh inning stretch of the Cubs game. And, you know, Chicago, right? going to it's people don't like michigan they don't like ohio state and so they boo david torel and david torel's like you guys can't boo the bears he like says it on the mic at like from the press box at rigley as it's happening it was it's just a super super fun team yeah a lot of good memories with the david torel pick at least we'll always have that anthony thomas rookie year uh love the o one bears go bears bear down all right guys that's all we have for today we will be back with

I believe three shows total this week. So be on the lookout for those. Again, I am going to be on vacation this week. But we'll have one more show that we recorded a little bit in advance and then a third and final show. And then we'll be back on our regularly scheduled cadence next week. For now, that's all we got. Sincerely appreciate you guys listening.

We'll talk to you soon.