The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Mailbag Part 1: Where Joe Burrow ranks, rebuilding an offensive line, teams that are a QB away & more

Episode Date: February 18, 2022

Robert Mays and Nate Tice answer all of your post-Super Bowl questions. They discuss where Joe Burrow ranks among top QBs in the NFL and how the Bengals can rebuild their offensive line this offseason. Plus, is Philip Rivers the player whose legacy is most negatively affected by the Brady/Patriots dominance of the AFC? They dive into that, as well as which teams are just a QB away and much more.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. Today's Friday, February 18th. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today is my good friend Nate Tyson. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing very well. Well rested.

Came down from the Super Bowl. I've come down from that high of the halftime show. I got a massage this morning, which I just told you about. I got one on Saturday. It was a big move. Big move. I'm so glad I booked it because the only time they had was 8 a.m. And I'm like, do I want to do that?

So glad I did. So fired up. So I'm feeling good, feeling loose, ready for some mailback questions. Ready for rock. So guys, thank you very, very much for sending in all these questions, kind of a great way in my mind to wrap up the season a little bit.

We got so many that we're going to break this up into two parts. So the first part, you guys be listening to it on Friday. The second part, we're going to release it on Monday because we're off next week. So this is a way to kind of give you guys something, but allow me and Marissa who's getting married and me who's going to sit on the couch to do next to nothing next week, which is going to be great.

So really appreciate you guys sending these along. Marissa, just cue the first one up here. Let's get going. Robert, love your show. I'm a lifelong Bengals fan. I got to say, honestly, you did the deepest analysis of the team all season at the national level, so thank you for that. I have to say also, not everyone's doing the good work, and I'm officially over the bad

Bengals discourse, especially after the Super Bowl. and this is someone who's already muted all the Chase versus Sewell memes forever. Here's the thing that's bothering me. It's this notion that the Bengals window is somehow limited or closing or even closed because Burroughs and the AFC

against Mahomes and Herbert and Alan and Lamar and who knows maybe Rogers and Rust by next month. But I just wonder when did analysis become an NFL futures market versus like results to date? Of that group, only Mahomes has been to a Super Bowl

and Burrow just went through KC to get to his. So like when does the burden of proof shift from Burrow having to prove this wasn't a fluke to all these other guys who are undoubtedly talented and going to have bright futures but still having to prove outside of Mahomes that they can get into the final two minutes of the Super Bowl with a lead.

So again, I just was curious here. thoughts on that. To me, Burrough seems like a winning player. Dudes can send me all the all 22 Herbert Bomb videos on my timeline and I'm like, that sounds awesome. I like my guy, Joe, and let's get back to it.

Anyway, am I crazy being happy where I'm at? Thanks, man. You know when you see one of your favorite bands and they just open with a banger? There's no easing into it whatsoever. You go see nine inch nails and it's head like a hole right away. I mean, they're wasting absolutely no time.

That's what that voicemail is with this Mowback episode. He just came out strong. I love it. So there's been a lot of narrative talk coming out of the Super Bowl over the last 48 hours. We're going to get it, I guess, 72 hours. It's been a while since the game. Time is a flat circle. There's a lot that we want to dig into.

So let's talk about some of this stuff. First of all, I appreciate him being nice to us at the top of the voicemail. At the bottom, that all 22 Herbert thing seems like a direct shot at Mace. I know. I was like, hmm. This is a rich. It's a rich text. Very dense. A lot to dig into here. I don't think the questions about the Bengals getting back to this place have anything to do with Joe Burroughs placed among the quarterback hierarchy. How worthy Joe Burrow is. The central question here, are you crazy being happy where you're at? Absolutely not. Joe Burrow is firmly going to be one of the best quarterbacks in the league for a very long time. We can dig into where that sits and what that's. conversation has been like, which I'm sure we will.

I think this is more about how hard it is to get there. You need so many breaks. Just think about Josh Allen this year. Think about how freaking good that Bill's team is. Think about the way he played in that game at Arrowhead in the divisional round. You can't play a better football game than Josh Allen played against the Chiefs a few weeks ago. The bills were at home.

They didn't even play in the AFC championship game. this is not about these guys being better than Joe Burrow or these guys being better foundational pieces for your roster moving forward than Joe Burrow or the Bengals lucking or fluking into this at all. This is about how freaking hard it is to get there. But Holmes has only been to the Super Bowl twice, even though they've been to the AFC championship game. They've hosted the AFC championship game the last four years.

So don't take this as a slight. This isn't some knock on Joe Burrow where the Bengals future or where they're going. To me, this worry about him getting back there is much more a conversation and a commentary on how hard it is to get to the Super Bowl than it is anything regarding Joe Burrow at all. And listening off all those other quarterbacks. And again, we can break him however. It just goes to show you. There's a lot of good ones out there in that same conference. And like you say, that's how hard it is to make it to the dance and like the top day. It's not even just the playoffs, but the Super Bowl. And I think that's what it is. You have the heart.

question answered as a Bengals fan or as a Bengals organization. We have a quarterback. That's that's question. What are the quarterbacks? Do you have a quarterback that can carry a team? Yes. Oh, wow. That's a pretty good start. So you're, we like Joe too. You say I like Joe. We like Joe as well. Like he is a quarterback that you can not only just win with. That's the that's the first. Because of him. Yes, because of him. Can everything else going to shit? Can he put the team on his back for a drive, a two or two or a whole half or a whole game sometimes. He has proven that he can.

Where the playoffs run was it great? No, but he did at times stepped up and goes, oh yeah, that's right. You're a star. You can do that stuff and carry the team when you need to. So you have the hardest question answered. I totally agree with you, Robert. It's saying it's more you're trying to give yourself more room for error, more paths to victory, however you want to put it.

It's the yeah, but. It's when you're talking about a team. It's, yeah, but the old line's got to hold up. Yeah, but the defense's got to stop them. Yeah, but the coach. coach doesn't have to screw it up. When you have a quarterback, that's like, that's such a nice answer to have because those other question marks become kind of smaller for a team.

And that's what Joe Burrow has. And I think this run that they had, it was stuff breaking their way. It was. They played well. The defense played well. They got positions to win because of Joe Burrow on that defense. But, you know, stuff had to break their way. And that's really what more I think the narrative, I guess, is just the show.

It's like, man, but those breaks aren't always going your way. Your team might get better. And they might not go. your way because it's so freaking hard. It is so impossibly hard to win in this league and to sustain winning. But the best thing that you can have for that is a really good quarterback. And that's what the Bengals have. So they're always going to have that answer in their back pocket.

Aaron Rogers is one of the five greatest quarterbacks that's ever lived. He's played in one Super Bowl. Yep. It's really, really, really hard. Dan Marino is the name that keeps getting thrown out there as it relates to Joe Burrow. In his second season, I would say the best quarterback, probably from his his generation, him and John Elway, right? Oh, yeah.

Every time you talk to somebody who watched football in the 80s, imagine Dan Marino now. One time in his second season, he goes to the Super Bowl, he never goes back. It's just hard to get there. That's why it hurts. That's why it hurts to get so close. Not because Joe Burrow is somehow lesser than some of these other guys. I think that he's right in that conversation. It's just the breaks you need to get there.

Health look, the ball bouncing your way in the playoffs. So many different aspects need to. to be in your favor to win a Super Bowl. And that's why being a drive away, a minute away, a game away, that's why it hurts so bad because there are just no guarantees, which takes us to our next question. Miles Profilio said, I've been a Chargers fan my whole life. Now that it's the offseason and Brady is supposedly retired, it got me thinking. Is Philip Rivers the players whose legacy is most negatively affected by the Brady Patriots

dominance of the AFC? People know how to get me. I was just going to say, when you set these questions over it, The second one was a Phil Brevers question. I was like, you know how to get me. So the reason I wanted to do this is because I think it dovetails perfectly with the Joe Burrow question that we just asked. It does. You can make an argument that Rivers is.

I remember having a conversation with Phil Rivers at the facility that the Chargers have down there on Costa Mesa. We were walking from the facility to the practice field. And I was doing a story about his playoff history and about the chance they had a couple years ago when they went to the playoffs and ultimately lost. Remember that game they played against the championship? Chiefs on that Thursday night. I love that Chargers team. And we were talking about his playoff history and all the near misses that they'd had.

And I want to say it was after they lost to the Patriots in that AFC championship game in 2007. He had the 20th CL. And Lidney and Tomlinson was hurt. And Antonio Gates was hurt. And he was telling me, he was talking to Norv Turner in the locker room after that game. And they were saying, we're going to be in so many of these. You know, Philip Rivers was in his second year as a starter. LT was the best player in the league seemingly at that.

that point. The Gates Rivers partnership was great. Sean Merriman was a young player. They had all these guys. They never got back there. They never did. And that's how hard it is. It's so tempting in the moment to say that to yourself and to tell yourself that story about who you're going to be. And that just isn't a guarantee. That's not how this works at all. And I do think that Rivers, the way that we talk about his career, you can make an argument that it's most affected by the Brady Patriots dominance because he's. the only one of that group that never won a Super Bowl that never got to a Super Bowl. Every single one of those guys that were drafted, let's say, between 2004 and 2012, let's say like the Russell

Wilson draft is like the next era of guys. They've all at this point been to a Super Bowl, Eli Manning, Ben Rothesberger, Matt Ryan, Matthew Stafford, Joe Flacco, all of those guys went. Rivers is the only one who never went. If he gets one, he's absolutely a Hall of Famer. And we're having the Matthew Stafford Hall of Fame conversation, which I don't want to have right now. No, please don't. But I do think that Philip Rivers, you can make an argument as the one that's most affected. The other one, I mean, Payne Manning is out is a top five quarterback ever probably. You could probably make an argument that if Rathisberger gets one more, maybe we talk about him a little bit differently. But I do think in regard to this question, Rivers is probably the answer. And I first one, I guess.

And then I was just trying to think of another answer. And mine was, yeah, Tom went into Steelers and Rothersberger and just being, it's more about, we respect them. And everyone's, it's the Steelers. You know, you always kind of just go, oh, they're always going to have a good team. And that's kind of just when your cookie cutter thought about them. But you would appreciate them more and kind of their sustained dominance that they had. I shouldn't say dominance, but sustained goodness that they had for years and years. 2015, right?

Yeah. Like there was one of those years where they broke through. Yep. And I think if the Patriots weren't in ever, like they didn't exist in the NFL. It'd be more like, man, that's Steelers team. They're the class. They're the ones had. Everyone's going to copy from.

You're going to steal all their assistance from and try and find the Steeler way, you know, anything with that sort. But that's what it kind of, that's the alternate multiverse history of this is that Brady doesn't go with the Patriots and they don't do that sustained success. But that's such a great point with Rivers. And that's really what it is. is Rivers has that kind of narrative about him of being a regular season stat pattern. Like that's kind of what seems to me.

Like as a guy in like being around football, everyone knows Rivers is a baller. He was just a sick player. And I getting more into the media role, this is what's fun sometimes to be able to kind of straddle the line on this is, oh, you guys don't feel the same way? Like I actually shocked me. I thought more people thought he had him in a higher light. And most of the jokes you hear about him was like, here's another two minute drill at Philip Rivers. And it's like,

yeah, but do you see those other sick plays? Do you see that corner throw he just had? That playoff game he had in Pittsburgh and it's like in snow. Like the games like that or I mean, you talk to coaches like the way that Wade Phillips talks about Philip Rivers is the same way that you talks about Payne Maynayne in terms of what you'd have to do and how he figured you out.

You make a mistake. He puts a knife in you. Oh, it's the best. It brings us back. That's how slim the fucking margins are, man. Yes.

It is inches between being a punchline and being immortal in this stuff. And that's why, as excited as we'd want to be about Joe Burroughs, as excited as we are about Joe Burrow, there is no guarantees. There are zero guarantees. Philip Rivers led the NFL in yards per attempt in 2008, 2009, and 2010, when Peyton Manning and Tom Brady were theoretically of where they were going to be. Obviously, Brady missed the 08 season, but you know what I'm saying here and never got there, Never even played in one.

And Rathusberger, you think about that Steelers team, they never had one in the three Bs era. Like that is to me one of the defining teams since I started covering, watching, hiring the NFL this closely that never broke through. Like that version of the Steelers with Ben and Brown and Levi-on-Bel, they never played in a Super Bowl, let alone won a Super Bowl.

So again, just these little things, these little sliding doors moments of, I know, you have these NFL teams that are the seven seconds or less sun. that you think of them in this way. The Dan Pouts Chargers. Yes. That's the other one.

Yeah. And maybe there's a world where, you know, the Bengals are really fun on offense over the next few years. And we think about the Chase Burrow connection and where T. Higgins fits into that. They have all these highlights and moments. And it just never happens. There's no guarantee that it's going to happen. And I think Philip Rivers is a very good reminder of that.

Absolutely. And I mean, you're just, if you don't have sustained success, you can be a fun offense on middling teams. And you can end up how people talk about, cold pepper and moss like really yeah that's more like oh man that was a lot of fun and that's how people talk about it oh that was a lot of fun it's like yeah it was a lot of fun wasn't it if Nate pool doesn't catch that touchdown it gets pushed out of bounds we'll talk about them different too but yeah no no no no no no uh no hurt feelings or anything you know it doesn't

sustain doesn't you know those negative feelings don't stick with you over your entire life no of that none of that sorry buddy it's gonna be okay let's get to our next one here Hey guys, Sam from Boston here, big fan of the show. What team do you feel like is able to make a Cincinnati type leap from last in their division to a serious playoff threat, be it through draft capital or capspace? Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. This is a very popular question. Thorsten from Germany emailed a similar question.

Zachary Hamilton, Chris Ulrich. We got a lot of versions of this question. This is a hard question. The Bengals had an over and a half had an engine last year. They'd want to combine six games over the two previous seasons. They picked in the top five. It's hard to pick a team from that tier of the NFL and project them to go to the Super Bowl. Who did you have?

Okay. So I, the cheating answer is the Ravens, but it's the because they gave the last. You can't pick the Ravens. I know. I know. I didn't do. So how I looked at because I took a literally said serious playoff threat. I didn't say as a Super Bowl contender.

So in that, and I went, this is so out of left field. This is like going to be like, stick with me here. The Jaguars. That's who I said. Yes. Yes. Okay. I was like, this is going to be way out of line or we're going to be on the same page here.

Oh, man. But I, there are definitely options, right? There's not. Go through the other ones. But lay out your case for the Jacks. Okay. They're taking advantage in the AFC South. That's in a weird spot.

Titans. That's where it starts big of a shitty division. Shitty division. that's where you start. Colts, you know, quarterback questions, you know, decent team, but quarterback questions. And then the Texans are living in their little fantasy world. And then I just think that they have an offseason of competence. And like they have a path at least. They know what they need and which is just help out the offense. And I mean, they just need pieces, which is actually kind of nice sometimes. We just need players. It's not like we're one guy away.

Just hope. Just need players. Get players and competence. And I think what I don't think we're ready to grasp the leap that Trevor Lawrence is going to take. And I think. think he's going to more than anyone, he's going to just ascend in his second year with, again, competence around him. But if you have a quarterback taking a leap into that above average to good quarterback tier in his second year, other things fall into place. And then you become a frisky 9 and 8 team, a frisky 10 and 17, just like the Bengals were. That's what you really need.

Bad division, quarterback taking a huge leap. And then a couple players that break out and competence on the quarterback or on the coaching side. So that's my case for them. But yeah, other teams, it was kind of like, I'm not going to really fight for them as well. I pick the Jags just because I think the Trevor Lawrence jump is the easiest one to talk yourself into. The bears just don't have enough avenues to get better. I think they could be in this conversation, but very little in fine cap space.

Like $30 million in caps space, but they don't have any players. They're missing a tackle. They're missing two receivers. It's not a good situation. They don't have a first round pick this year. I think they have a little bit too far to go just as, as it relates to all the holes on the roster. Because the Bengals part of this is your quarterback takes a step forward.

You find the right weapon for your quarterback and you build the defense through free agency. That was the Bengals plan. So if you're trying to piece all of that together, I think the Jags are the best case just because you can see the step forward from the quarterback because there's an adult in the room running the team and the offense, which is a huge thing. They have a ton of cap space, a ton of cap space. They have the number one pick in the draft.

Yep. They have more draft capital because the Carolina Panthers were very excited about getting C.J. Henderson. There are a lot of different ways they can go here. So if you pick a left tackle number one in the draft, which seems like a totally reasonable choice, you have that spot locked down. You have other free agent holes on the offensive line, but you have the flexibility to fill them, go out a couple guys in free agency on defense.

It doesn't need to be the biggest name guys in the world, but you have a lot of wiggle room here. So I think that's why they're the easiest one to talk myself into. Atlanta still has too far to go, and their cap situation is still a disaster. Detroit, the quarterback is probably going to be the same. Even if they draft somebody, you figure golf is going to be the starter. I don't really see them taking a notice. I think they're going to be more frisky than like a playoff run. Like, oh, they're a tough 819, tough 7 and 10 team than like a team that catches a couple of breaks to the playoffs.

The other team I think you could talk yourself into here is the Giants. If you wanted to do, if you wanted to get there, I could see the steps you would need to take. It's about how you feel about Daniel Jones. Right. Can Daniel Jones take a big step forward? I think he can take a step forward with a different offensive coaching staff. If they go make a couple tweaks, what they're going to do with their money and who they're going to cut and who they're going to bring back. There are just so many question marks about that team.

But you can talk yourself into a Brian Dable, wink, Martin Dale, everything else they have going there in terms of their leadership structure. And if I'm going to bet on a personnel guys, it is we think coaches the crapshoot saying who's going to be good. personnel it's even more of a crapshoot. We have no idea. But if I'm going to bet on a guy, I'm going to take one from the Bills personnel exact. And that personnel exact from the Bills system. Because how they, how being built that roster was a bunch of like football players. Like that is like, team building example of the last.

It's so cool. It's so all these cheap, nice deals, middling deals, mid like people look at them and stop gap, but really it was like a team building. Like when we talk about team building, it's not just getting better players. Yes, that's number one. But number two is just getting a. mindset of a bunch of pros. And that's what he did. And I think that's exactly what the Giants need. They don't need to live in this weird world. It's like just getting competent going like, well, let's just take the cheaper guy that's a good football player as opposed to that pie in the sky answer that we want to get. I think that helps. And that coaching staff looks phenomenal. Like it's a it's a lot of guys that are respected. It's like, oh, we know that guy's name. He might be interesting. It's guys that are like respected coaches. He even brought Bobby Johnson with him from the bills. A old line coach. I mean, stuff like that.

So the Bobby Johnson thing And just the O line in general I think is a really good example. What's exciting about the way The Bills built that team is And I've talked to Brandon Bean about this Just about how they spent in free agency And the way that they thought about their free agent dollars

Was let's use to plug holes Let's not go for the biggest guy At that position The Splashiest move that we can make Let's make sure you look at all the dice rolls They took along the offensive line Over multiple years It was one year three million for this guy

Two years, six million for this guy One year four million with this guy we're just going to roll the dice over and over and over again and hope that we can find five competent starters. And Bobby Johnson did a great job of helping mold that unit and having it be a functional group over the last two years. And it's a perfect example is signing a Cole Beasley or signing a Kenny Galladay. 100%. That's the difference. Signing Kenny Gallaudet and drafting Cadarius, Tony are two things that the Buffalo Bills would not have done.

They just wouldn't have done it. They did a great job of sequencing the roster, right? Like this is step one. This is step two. This is step three. Going to get Cole Beasley and John Brown in year one. And then what do we need? We need a Stefan Diggs.

We're going to trade for it. And you drop that in. And the defensive line is another really good example of they don't have any monsters there, right? Like Ed Oliver was supposed to be that guy. It didn't end up happening. But just the dice rolls they would take there. You look at the free agent tier they shopped in with those guys. It was those middle range free agents.

It was the Quinn Jeffersons of the world. and just the Bs of B pluses. Yes. And I think that's a really good way to do it. So it's challenging. It's challenging to build your team and free agency. We had the same conversation about the Bengals, but I totally agree with you.

I think there is definitely reason for optimism as it relates to the New York Giants. So I could throw them in there as well. All right. Let's get to our next one here. Similar kind of question. It's funny that they come one after the other. Somebody might have done that on purpose. Tyler Bereshaashaas asks, who are this year's Rams?

Who is the team that's a quarterback away? Who you got? To me, it's the Colts. And I think it's just, I love the roster. They're built through the line. They have answers at the court or at the receiver position. They have the top tier two runoffbacks, the best one, too, tandem, I think, in the running back room.

They have defensive answers. They have defensive players that makes sense. They still need some guys there, like just a little more of a playmaking on the back end. But if they get a quarterback, man, it's like, that's a whole new level. that they can take if they just get some quarterback answer. So I'm going to say the Colts. I think the Colts is a good one.

I am a little bit worried about still the players at impact positions. They need a left tackle. Pass rushing, you can forecast some growth from pay and from the young guys. You hope that happens. I think they'll still need a corner. They're still players for me. And I still think they need another past catcher.

They need more past catching juice than they currently have right now. Whether it's a tight end or receiver, whatever. They have a bunch of twos and threes. Yes. Yeah, two's and threes. I think they even need another number two. They don't, that Paris Campbell, Paris Campbell never becoming that guy.

Is when you look at the overall ingredients that they wanted to have on offense, they lack juice at their past catching spots. Just point out. It's funny because Pittman and Pascal kind of have overlapping traits a little bit. So that's kind of like why they just need a little, they're a little too samey. If you're looking at, if you're trying to build a past catching group as a basketball team,

like we've talked about forever, Pittman is a slasher. He's an attacker. He attacks space. that's what he does well. They need an NFL version of a shooter, which is a speed guy because that it creates gravity and it creates space or pin them to attack, right? They don't have that guy right now.

And I think that when you watch their offense, you can feel that. So I think a quarterback, a quarterback kind of like glosses over some of the stuff. If you get the right guy, this becomes less important. But they're in the conversation to me. I think the Eagles are an interesting one because the line is there. the line is there you have devante smith you know theoretically if you can go get another pass catcher in free agency you have most of what you'd want and and goddard is there you need one more receiver plus the quarterback i think that offense becomes let's say you make the

russell wilson tray right now it's good it's good for it seems like it's a really good team and their defense they can add playmakers on defense but offensively i think they become really interesting a cheap one here is the niners like tray lance is that quarterback If you drop a new quarterback into an otherwise good core, which theoretically that's what the Niners are doing, even though the guys are already on the roster, I think you can make that argument. And my last one, the Broncos.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, the Broncos was the easy. That was my number two. And then I had a number three. And I said, dare we say the Browns? And that was my, that was my dot, dot, dot one. I mean, I'm into that one. It's harder for me to see them being as desperate on the quarterback market

as these other teams are. I 100% think they're going to mix. phone calls this spring and see what's available to them. But it's one of those things where if there's no clear upgrade, you look at what you're paying Baker, you know, do you need to go get Jimmy Garapolo? Is that, is that much better? Is that a half tier improvement worth it? Yeah.

It's not a true golf to Stafford was a true two tier upgrade. Exactly. By anyone. Anyone's eyes. It was like clear. So that's exactly it. Baker and Jimmy are kind of the similar tier. year. If one of those other guys

becomes available and you can trade for Russell Wilson if you're Cleveland, then I think that you do. Oh, yeah. But Denver, you look at it. Their offensive line is pieces. You know, you have several useful players there. You know the receivers are there. Patrick, Sutton, Judy, there. Hamler coming back. So you have the speed element.

You got the back. I mean, Dante Williams is being in year two. Fant is there. Defensively, they're less complete than you think they'd be. Just because a lot of guys are hitting free agency. Cream Jackson's a free agent. Bryce Callahan is a free agent. Kyle Fuller is a free agent.

And they still have Darby. They still have Sartan, obviously. They still have Justin Simmons. Yeah, I mean, they still have pieces. Their defensive front is not as good as you'd want it to be. Chubb is back and they still have Shelby Miller, but there are a lot of different ways that could go. They have resources. But I think that they could, if they have Aaron Rogers, they're a playoff team, like right now at this exact moment.

They needed Rogers last year. Yes. You know, I mean, they needed that quarterback upgrade to the last year. Now it's like, oh, now we have more question marks now. So, yeah, that Broncos, though, was another one I had as well. All right. Next one here, Elijah Hack. Great name, by the way.

Great name, Elijah Hack. I was wondering if you spent some time discussing practically how the Bengals go about fixing their offensive line in soft season. It's obvious that there's an issue, but I haven't actually heard anyone describe a realistic plan to fix the issues. A couple specific questions. Bengals' Twitter is convinced we will sign Toronto Armstead and Brandon Scherf, but the team has always struggled to attack the top free agent talent.

you have any second tier free agents do you think they should target? Or on the flip side, do you think with Burrow and their core talent, they'll be able to attract top tier free agents? Obviously, the team drafts of 31 this year. Does Nate have any late, first, early second round targets on the O line that he thinks would be a good fit? What current starters in the Bengals O line do you think they should retain any arguments moving Jonah Williams to right tackle or inside if they sign a better left half? All right.

Lay out your plan for me. How do the Bengals stick the offensive line? Okay. We talked before about having a bona fide QB. It does help attract players because that's, you know, players are very aware what's the most important position. Trust me. There are two. When you're thinking about where guys are signing in free agency, number one factor without question, no questions asked, money.

Money is absolutely the most important thing. All I care about. It's not the NBA being out of coast or anything like that. There are players who will tell you, their agent picked where they went in free agency because that was the biggest offer. It is money. It is unquestionably the number one factor. Number two, when there's a tie, is quarterback. Yep. That is number two.

So those are the two factors when you're thinking about free agency in almost any case you're going to think about. If a guy's on his third deal, he's 34 years old and he just wants to ring, all that, fine. But if there are guys on their second contract, the meat of free agency, that's what's going to drive these decisions. So it does matter. It does have. If we're talking about second tier, it's nice actually starting to dive into some of these

free agent options. A guy, like, you have to look at, you have to get creative a little bit. When you're trying to, everyone wants to sign the big, big ticket guys, but usually that can create its own set of problems. Because one of those guys is, okay, I got my big deal. I'm out of here. Like, mentally, I'm not going to lead this team. I'm skirt. I got my big deal.

I'm good. I'm going to be, yes, I can play a 90 overall man, but I'm going to play like a 70. Like that happens all the time. But I would say that the second kind of tier guys, like a guy like, I always butcher his name, but Mark Lewinsky, who had a nice year with the Colts, I thought. I think that that's a second, third tier guy that you get on the cheap or cheaper than you would on a bonafide guy. But that's just a body. We talk about going from poor to average.

That's going from poor to average for the Bengals offensive line. You have to get guys like, he didn't play this year. And so this might be a terrible example, but a guy like a Kyle Long of the world, a guy that's had injury history that you can get on the cheap. Again, you just need these types of bodies, gauges health and the healthiness and try and steal a player. Tackle wise, like a Tom Compton. Again, you're going to average players. I know these guys aren't stars, but getting average on this offensive line would be such an upgrade for them.

And also another name that I saw on the free agent list that this might just be my background with him, but a guy like a David Sharp who I think he was with his Ravens this past year, but taking a home run swing on the guy and going like, all right, you're a swing tackle. Shit, maybe we get more out of you because you get your first chance at starting. Getting those type of higher draft picks, height, height, weight, speed type of guys that maybe we can grow them. And then if we're going into the draft is, you know, with a little help from our friend Brandon Thorne, who's the top of the line guy. What's been really nice for me is I focus on offensive skill guys is now we got so ahead of the game with Bleacher Report that now I'm able to like peek at other positions and actually kind of know what I'm talking about for our first round draft show.

There's a couple of linemen that are going to be really sit in that position where they're picking at pick 31. There's Bernard Raymond, who's from central Michigan is a tackle. There's Trevor Penning, a tackle from northern Iowa. same type of guy. A little more traitsy types of guys, but hopefully you hone it in. I do think the Bengals Offensive Line Coach did a nice job this year of making them look at least. They knew where they were going.

It was more of a talent issue than like, oh, my God, they don't even know where they're looking at, which I thought was the issue last year before they got the new guy. Daniel Falale from Minnesota, big, gigantic offense alignment, huge body, something that you could grow and work with. And then at Guard, they have Kenyon Green from Texas, A&M, and Zion Johnson from Boston College. I think Johnson made himself some more money.

He might be gone by a time to Bengals pick because he had a great senior bowl. And then the last part of the question is I really actually like what Hopkins did at the center position for the Bengals. I also really like him. His personality wise and all that other stuff. I also think he's been playing hurt a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And he's kind of underrated.

Like I got to give him more credit. Watching him in the Super Bowl and watching throughout this playoff run, their, you know, defense is trying to attack attack them rightfully. Mentally, he was great. He's very smart. You can tell. He sorts stuff out quick. Like his points are quick. And it's not to sit there and go, ah, rip.

He, he, like, Burrow doesn't have to do anything. And physically, I would say he's above average type of talent. But I think that guy is like, that's good to have a center pairing with your quarterback that they trust each other already. That's a good starting point. Trust me. You don't want to go. And I think that's why. Coming from a bear's fan, you know.

I think it's important for him. I think he'll be there. Just based on my. And I don't know the ins and out. It's a bit, but little things you hear, they like him. And I think it is all of those intangible things that you're talking about. He's also under contract. He's making $7 million next year.

They can save five by cutting him. But when you start to do that, like that rotating cast of characters at center with your youngish quarterback, that's a bad idea. I think you keep him there. You keep John Williams at left tackle. I'm not doing that. No. I'm not doing that. No.

You look at it. If you want to be shopping in a free agency, mid-tier guards is a good aisle. It's a good aisle to be shopping in. You went Goulinski, which is one step down from where I was thinking, you could go do it two ways. In an ideal world for me, the hall would look something like Lakin's Tomlinson, Brandon Scherf, and a tackle at 31. The right tackle at 31. That if you can afford it and you feel comfortable in the injury history with Scherf, I think that's the only thing you'd have to talk yourself into. He's going to want top of market guard money.

Are you comfortable giving him the Joe Tooney contract? The difference between him and Joe Tuny is that Joe Tuny does not miss a snap ever. So when you give somebody that deal, it's a lot easier with a guy who's never missed a game, never missed a play in his NFL career. Okay. I'm going to take into account. If you want to go one step down from that, Lake and Tomlinson and James Daniels, an Austin Corbett, these are not the sexiest names in the world. They don't need to be. No.

All you need is not the worst guard in the league. average. That's all you need. I know. Don't need an all pro. Don't need a pro bowler. You just need average. That's all you need. If you put Lakin Tomlinson and Austin Corbett and let's say Riley Reef, let's say Riley Reef doesn't even get hurt. And that's your offensive line for the Bengals. You're a really, really good team. Huge upgrade. Huge upgrade from what you had last year, which it was like, oh, my God, this is scary. This is actually scary. I know it's so attempting to look at the Trott Armsteads and all the big name guys and free agency. You don't need to shop in that section. to the store. Just shop in the discount aisle. You're going to be just fine there. The shirt's

going to fit you. People are going to be like, oh, that's a nice shirt. It's not going to be the coolest thing anyone's ever worn, but you're going to look good. You're going to be happy with the way you look. And it's going to be just fine. So I think that is a solid plan overall. The takeaway here, there are options. There are a lot of different avenues to find these functional guys at those positions. So it's an encouraging place to be if you're a Bengals team that has a lot of resources to play with this offseason. Yeah, and they have all their picks. That's a nice thing.

And they're going to be shot. They're sitting in that kind of position of the draft where it's, you don't have to chase a pick if that makes sense. You don't have to, when you get into the middle rounds, middle of the first round, you talk yourself into guys sometimes and you reach on a guard or tackle because you're like, oh my God, we need one. And it's almost better to be late in a round. And you draft a perfect bangles example, a Kevin Zitler, like those, okay, that, that good

level of kind of prospect that, okay, maybe he's maybe he has some higher end and all that, but you don't, you don't take a reach on some project. You're more like, okay, we can get competency here and you kind of know what you're getting. So there's plans. There's options. There aren't that many right tackles available in free agency. I think you'd be more comfortable saying, do we sign a stopgap? One year, seven million, same as the reef deal. And you draft one at 31 that you don't have to play right away. Right. I mean, that's obviously the more attractive avenue. But there just aren't that many tackles in free agency, which, by the way. This is why you draft tackles.

The chase thing worked out. It's great. But when you're looking at the pool of available players at these positions, when you get to this time of year, it's not big. So the right tackles available in free agency. Okay. Trent Brown, Germain Affetti, Morgan Moses, Mike Remmers, Bobby Massey, Tynaseki, Dennis Kelly,

Josh Wells, Bobby Hart. The Bengals have played their Bobby Hart game. They know Bobby Hart very, very well. The left tackles that are available in free agency. Nate Soulder, Cam Robinson, Tehran Armstead, Dwayne Brown, Eric Fisher, Riley Reef, who's a right tackle also. Jason Peters, Cornelius, Lucas. Oh, man.

The guards are so much better. There's so many more available guards because teams sign their tackles. Teams do not let tackles walk out the door. This is why it's nice to have them. If you look at even like, it's always fun to look at like all pro and pro and pro little teams to just see where everyone's drafted. It's like if you want a top tier corner, yeah, you're going to have to draft them in like the top 20.

Like it just is what it is. Big fast guys that can cover aren't going to last until the fourth round. But same with the tackles. The All pro tackles last year. Trent Williams, Roshan Slater, Tristan Worf's, Elaine Johnson. All the top 15 picks.

Yeah. They're all lottery picks. It's like that's where you find those guys. You don't get, there's only like one Armstead or Mitchell Schwartz like that you kind of. Also two super outliers for very different reasons. Way. Alts.

A pine bluff. Unbelievable physical skills. Could even wind up. Like that's a fantastic job of developing players. Mitchell Schwartz. who I love deeply. Guys do not succeed in the NFL that move like Mitchell Schwartz. You need to be a very specific sort of person to have an all pro level career

if you are physically gifted in the way that Mitchell Schwartz is. So, all right. Let's get to our next one here. Jacob Grimm says, I was wondering, can we as fans be trusted with a top five QB and the AFC label for Joe Burrow? I don't even know if this is too high at the moment, but somehow it comes across to calling him anything but the best quarterback in the

aFC is an insult. I love watching him play and love what he's like. Why does there seemingly always have to be a rush to anoint the next leader? Why does it so often become this binary? I get that it's results oriented because sports and it frustrates me to no end that we as fans and media can't seem to get out of our own way to say, man, what a fun performance. What do you have to say about this? Preachers to the choir. Like that's what I always have to kind of go through. I had today to see I saw something from a big media outlet saying that Patrick Merhomes is even a top five quarterback right now. Not, you know, like, that's, that's amazing.

The playoffs happened less than a month ago. We already are going up. We already on that. Hosted four straight AFC championship game. Yeah. And if you even look at his playoff stats, it was like, oh, man, he was about to have an all-time playoff performance. If we, uh, if we just remember, if we have memories past a goldfish, I think it's, I think that's what sports is fun is like, because it's fun, because it's fun to debate these

things. But it is annoying to just annoy people right away, say this is the best ever. This is the best this. Even us with the air and, Donald praise that we had on a Super Bowl show. We're like, oh, top three to five. That's how I do it, though. I know. It's great. And I love it.

It's like, yes, exactly. We don't have to annoy them right away. And I get it. I think that's just sports fandom. You want to appreciate what you want to appreciate, but it is fun to rank things. I love ranking things. Remember after Joe Burrow had that performance against the Ravens, against the Ravens B team, not even the B team, the F team?

I think he's a top five quarterback right now. And I meant he was playing on like a top five quarterback. I put him second team all pro. Joe Bro had an amazing season. Even if you want to say that's an overreaction, which I think it was a little bit to make a point. He was the top five quarterback this season in terms of the way that he played on the field.

Yes. That's okay. I understand that this is how sports media has to work, right? Think about the way that you engage with media in your day-to-day life. You're on Twitter. You're scrolling, you're scrolling, you're scrolling. People want those videos and those clips that are going to pop.

sometimes you have to take it one step too far. A lot of the time, these are things thrown out by producers in order to stoke conversation. We do that sometimes, where we do the pump the break segment on Sunday and we throw out something silly and talk about it. That's just the tenor how a lot of these conversations work. And I understand how we occasionally get to this place. But as we all take a breath in the week after the Super Bowl ends, after the season ends, Petrim Holmes is still the best quarterback in the league. Yeah.

We don't have to do this every single year. Are we going to have another quarterback draft in May for the next five years, the same way we did last year? Hell, yes, we are. Yes, it's great. It's great. I enjoy having those conversations. Yeah. But it doesn't have to be so far on the extremes.

Joe Burrow is right now a borderline top five quarterback in the NFL, right? If you were stacking them up, Tom Brady is retired. So if you want to. That's right. Okay. Patrick Mahomes, Aaron Rogers, Josh, Allen, Justin Herbert. I mean, all these guys are in the conversation. Joe Burrow is one of the best quarterbacks in the league.

He's going to be one of the best quarterbacks in the league for a good long while. As of this exact moment, I would rather have Patrick Mahomes than Joe Burrow. And that's okay. That says nothing about Joe Burrow. That's not a knock on him. I would probably still in this moment, and I'm fine saying it, rather have Justin Herbert than Joe Burrow. The piece that Sando wrote a couple weeks ago, where he was.

citing all the scouts and talking to people in the league and personnel executives. And they were ranking, Burrow, Herbert and Allen. And all the guys had Burrow number one. I was like, holy shit. Do we have the memories of like a small child? What is happening here? I can believe it. Joe Burroughs awesome.

Joe Burroughs going to be awesome for a very, very long time. I don't understand how you can watch that game that Josh Allen play in the divisional playoff around and conclusively say that you would rather have Joe Burrow than Josh Allen. Or Justin Herbert in Week 18 converting third and fourth down after third and fourth down just like throwing one percenter balls one after another. And the thing with Justin Herbert, and we're reading that article, Mike Sando does a great job, but reading that article was, yeah, that's not Mike. That's the guy.

No, no, no, that's, that's what I just want to make sure he's not catching strap mill here because reading that was stunning to me of what the perception of what Justin Herbert is. I think a lot of people in the league apparently think he's just some big arm dummy. That guy is a genius at the quarterback position in a package that 6-6 rock. up and can run like a legit four six. We were talking about this last week. Yes. It's his highs are as high as anyone's in the league and he makes no mistakes.

He makes no mistakes. He's a machine mentally. That ball, his eyes, and I know I talk about quarterback eyes and everything all the time because it freaking matters is they go to the right spot every time. It's not, oh, he guessed wrong there. You watch Justin Herbert. It's once in a while he sprays a throw. And that's it is there's no mental mistakes that happen with them.

I can maybe count on my hand how many. I've ever seen with him. And that, that's, that's why it's shocking to me when I read that article going, am I watching the right guy here? Like, is there something I don't know about this guy that he is like just some big arm dummy?

Because he is not from what I can tell. So it's just funny. It's just funny how we, how we consume these players, especially as time passes on and we just forget the stuff they did a couple weeks ago. Justin Herbert Love is not just big quarterback go boom. Like I understand that sometimes it devolves into that because it's very fun.

And those videos that we just got shit on earlier this show, for for tweeting out. They're fun. And I enjoy the splash plays from him because they're as special as any splash plays we see from everybody. It's not just, this isn't just subjective conversation either.

Justin Herbert was at the bottom of the league in turnover worthy plays this year. He was at the bottom of the league in the percentage of his pressures that turned into sacks. The negative plays associated with Justin Herbert almost don't exist and his high highs are as high as anybody.

That combination of stuff is crazy. So it's they're all at the table. That's the that is the thing that we end here, the end this with. They're all, remember him big brothering the chiefs defender and throwing the ball in the red zone like keeping up like holding his face mask and keeping away like you're not like like stay away like do we not remember these freaky plays? No, because it happened two weeks ago so we can never remember it again. My conclusion here and we'll we'll end episode one with this is that it's the same conversation we had about burrow at the top. You have one of the guys.

you have one of the guys at the table. You don't have a quarterback. You have one of the quarterbacks. However you want that list to look, however many guys you think it is, whether it's eight or it's 10, whatever, that's what's important.

However you want to stack them up, it's going to fill a lot of podcast time and column inches and whatever. And I think that's fun. The reason we do this is because those conversations are fun. It's the reason people listen. But it doesn't have to be this immediate reaction of, now that Joe Burrow played in a Super Bowl,

he's the greatest quarterback of all time and Patrick Mahombs sucks. And we're not, are we renaming the coach of the year trophy after Sean McVeigh? Is that like another one we're going to do? Like that's what it's see. But that's honestly, I get where this question's coming from because I totally agree. Sometimes we just. It's been the conversation all week. I mean, it's unbelievable.

But it's this is how it works. Yeah, this is the world. All right. That's all we got for episode one, guys. As always, thank you so much for listening. Please check out the football GM at our. our Apple Audio Plus offering this week. You can also listen to it on the Athletic app with Mike Sando and Randy Mueller.

They do a fantastic job. So please go check that out. For us, we will be back on Monday with the second installment of our mailbag here. As always, appreciate you guys sending in your questions. We'll talk about you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.