The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Mailbag: Ravens, Broncos & Jets fans are worried, who is Kyle Shanahan, Patrick Mahomes, football memories & more with Lindsay Jones

Episode Date: October 26, 2021

Lindsay Jones is here to open the week 7 Mailbag - and boy was it a doozy. Hear why Broncos, Chiefs, Ravens and Jets fans are currently terrified, what Bengals fans are allowed to think about this team, memories of football with family, a look at Kyle Shanahan's tenure with the 49ers and much more via your voicemail and email. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. Today is Tuesday, October 26th. I'm Robert Mays. I am thrilled to welcome for this week's mailbag. My good friend, Lindsay Jones, Lindsay, how are you? I am great. I am so excited to finally get the invite to the mailbag pod.

Well, you're on once a week anyway. I try to get other people on, but I just like doing this with people I enjoy having conversations with. And you're one of those people. so I knew that it would be easy breezy. And we've done these before on our kind of a regular midweek show. So it's always fun to see what sort of weird questions you guys bring to us. Unfortunately, this has been kind of a downer of a week. But you guys still brought it.

So I'm really excited to get into this. There was a dark energy to some of the questions that were asked. I don't know whether it's the spooky season or whether it's been the weather around most of the country. It's been disgusting here the last couple days, just rainy and cold and windy. I don't know if it was yesterday's slate of games and some of the outcomes, but there was a lot of deep, deep thoughts about what it all means in the mailbag this week. We'll get to some of those. The first one, I just had to acknowledge this,

Casey McClellan asks, if you had a click, the very average Adam Sandlin movie style remote, and you told it to fast forward to when the Bears have a great quarterback and a great offense, do you think you'd just fast forward to your funeral? It's one of the first questions I saw in the mailbox. It's dark. It's like, Jesus. Getting started on a Monday morning and on the right note.

Also, I appreciated Ben Bacqunatt, his question. I don't know if I got that right. It was a Menzinger-related Bears email. He said, Bears, I love you, but you're freaking me out, which I really appreciated. He knows exactly how to get my attention. So congratulations on that, Ben. Speaking of Big, what does it all mean questions? Let's get to our first voice mail.

Hey, this is Darby from South Carolina, big bingles fan. Obviously, I'm coming off the high of that amazing Ravens win. I just have to say our defense just has taken what just feels like such a monumental leap from last year, being one of the worst defenses in the league, honestly. And now to hold the Ravens to 17 points and just Lamar Jackson, that offense to so many just desperate fourth down calls. I just feel like we've made such a leap there, and I feel like the media is. has been a little bit slow on celebrating that, which I understand the bingles. But after this performance and just chase now becoming not just the deep ball threat,

but also just all around the amazing number one receiver and Burrow taking a big step, I just feel like this is obviously a playoff team. I'm not necessarily saying that we're going to make some big playoff run, but we're clearly in the mix, and I think the rebuild is, ahead of schedule. So I just want to know, do you think it's time for the media and everyone else to maybe kind of reassess where this bingoes team is and just kind of going forward? I feel like in the next few years it's not unrealistic for this team to become a contender.

Let me know if I'm crazy and if I'm getting way too hikes. I just feel like it's time to reassess the bingles. Let me know if I'm going too far. I love this so much because this. This is such a familiar and relatable fan experience just playing out in real time. There's a little bit of I Told You So in his tone. It's like it's time for you guys to reassess what you've said before. Totally understandable.

But in a respectful way, there's a lot of hemming and hawing and qualifiers where it's like, you know, I think that this is right. There's not really a question. It's mostly him just talking through like these stages of it in his mind. But why I love this is this is what happens. happens. When you are the fan of a downtrodden franchise that has not been successful in a while, you inevitably will go through this process when you start winning some games. It's like, am I allowed to be excited about this? How excited should I be about this? Should I be vindictive

because you weren't excited enough? But then is that putting me in a bad place? It's just the back and forth about it is so perfect. And that's why I wanted to share this. Well, and I think that the nut graph in there, if we want to, you know, do a journalism. journalism picture here, right? The nut graph was, tell me I'm not crazy. Yeah. Right? And that is really, that really gets to the heart of all of this right now because you're not crazy, Darby and all of the other Bengals fans who are in my mentions and are absolutely in your mentions and Nate Tice's mentions. I've seen a few of those. You guys aren't crazy. And you absolutely should enjoy every single second of this. I don't think you should buy plane tickets to Los Angeles for February.

12th that weekend quite yet. But you might want to price them out, just see what might be out there because, look, the AFC is a complete disaster. So why not the Bengals, right? I mean, they have as good of a resume as anybody in the conference right now. And everybody else in the conference really looks beatable. So, you know, I think you have all of the pieces in place that you can be really excited about. You have a quarterback who's ascending. You have a, you know, a stud rookie wide receiver who is who's on a career trajectory that is faster than anybody anticipated. I mean, he's kind of matching what Justin Jefferson did last year to be this really, really standout rookie. And it's rare to have a guy this young performed this quickly, especially after missing a whole

year of college football. And you have a defense that he, like Darby said, that is really taking off. You know, they're actually getting contributions from some of these expensive pre-agents, things that just haven't happened in the past. So, you know, I don't, I don't think he's crazy. I absolutely don't think you're crazy for enjoying this. I want you to enjoy this. This seems to me to be like kind of the right attitude and the right fan attitude to have. I totally agree. And I think you should enjoy this.

This is a really cool time and a cool period as a sports fan. When you have these young homegrown guys at the center of it who are ascending, right? It feels like the beginning of something. It feels like, you know, even if this isn't the year, even if there is a limitation to how good the defense can be over the long haul, you know, whatever. your reservations about it. Just this like the knowledge and the satisfaction and the comfort of, Burroughs good. He is just good. He's

going to be a very good quarterback. Chase looks like a star. We have a potential long term left tackle in Jonah Williams. All of those building blocks, it's like, all right, where does this go from here? It gives you the chance to be perpetually, annually excited about it. So yeah, I mean, I think that we did reassess a little

bit and we have reassessed how we see this team and what they could accomplish this year, next year, all those kinds of things. So I don't think you're crazy, Darby. I think you should be having a good time. And I would lean more into the this is fun part of it than let me be vindictive and bitter about you guys not being excited about this. And I do think that, you know, from the media perspective, you know, a lot of us have been kind of critical of the Bengals for a while because look, for a really long time, certainly over the last five years or so, they haven't given anybody a reason to kind of give them the benefit of the doubt. a lot of things have gone wrong there from personnel decisions to actual play on the field to

just kind of the way that organization runs. They are such an outlier when it comes to the NFL that sometimes it's hard to make sense of the way that they do business because it's so different than what everybody else does. But I think we're starting to come around, right? I mean, we talked at length with Paul Dana Jr. on our podcast a couple weeks ago on our show. And, you know, I think he gave us a lot of the reasons to be excited about this team. team and you guys should be excited about it. And I'm sure we'll be talking a lot more about the Bengals. I mean, I was looking at the Bengals like week 16, 17, 18 schedule.

That's bonkers. I haven't done that since 2015. Not in the way that wasn't saying to yourself, can we get this over with, please? Yeah, or you're trying to assess like who's going to get the number one overall pick and like, how could that shake out? But look, I mean, you know, I can't wait for a rematch against the Ravens. That's December 26th. Part of this kind of really brutal stretch, Baltimore, Kansas.

city, Cleveland, the last three games of the season that could really determine division title playoff seedings. And that's really fun to think about. And the Bengals, I've been to playoff games at Paul Brown Stadium. I was at that insane wildcard game against the Steelers, which was, I believe actually the last playoff game. That was, I like still have some PTSD from that. It was insane. That was a Vontes-Berfect hit on Antonio Brown. Ben Rathesberger left the game. I mean, just a bizarre game. But play of football there is really fun. And you guys. guys deserve to have meaningful games back in Cincinnati. Okay. After Darby's question, I wanted to explore the other side of this. I thought there was

pretty good synergy here with his voicemail on the next one that we're going to roll out here. Hello, Robert. I'm a Ravens fan and not, what can you do to not care about losses so much? How do you make them not affect you? I have an issue. Thanks on the show. Oh, I'm so sad for you. It's a tough thing. And listen, I'll admit that over the course of the decade that I've done this job, the losses don't hurt me quite as much because I see it more clinically. And when you get to know guys in the league and you kind of look at it a different way, I think that that part of my brain isn't as sharp as it might have been 10 years ago.

But I will say that I like being able to tap into that version of myself because as a sports fan, the caring is the point. And the whole point is to be invested in it. And the whole point is to be invested in it with the people around you in your life, to talk about it with the people that you love and talk about it with my mom on text yesterday. Justin Fields and playing the way that he did and the Bears losing the way that they did. Of course, that sucks. But I think that that moment of hers texting me being like, man, this sucks.

There's something to that. Like, that's why it's beautiful. Because eventually the moments that are better, they're more worth it and they're more enjoyable well, because you had these moments. That is the whole point of this. It's the whole point of sports is to kind of look at your entire life, decide what you want to care about. And if this is something that you want to care about,

that's the purpose of it. The caring is the point. And I know that it's not always easy when you have those letdown moments, but in the end, that's why we do this. Yeah. And I'm not the best person to answer this, probably because my answer would be become a sports writer,

because it does kind of take that, you know, it does kind of take that out of you. I grew up, I live in Denver. I grew up during, I grew up as a Broncos fan in the 80s, the 90s. They lost Super Bowls when I was a child. They won Super Bowls when I was a teenager. And then I kind of got this distance from it. I moved away. I became a sports writer and you kind of like watch how the sausage gets made. And so you kind of lose, you lose that. And then I went to specifically cover the Broncos. And I think that really killed it for me, you know, that part of that fandom. So I try to keep it for other sports. You know, I married into a St. Louis Cardinals family.

So that's kind of become my outlet for fandom and understanding wins and losses and getting so into every single game and at bats and players and their stories and invested that way. So I try to at least get a little bit of that. But you're absolutely right, Robert, about that. You know, you care because or it hurts because you care and you invest a lot of your time. but I think it helps to maybe also understand that the guys that are playing, the guys that are coaching, it means that much to them too. And they're in it with, they're in it with you. They're feeling it. They want it to get better. You know, it is a job for them, but they want to be winning

and doing the right thing as much as possible. And I know that happens in Baltimore. I think there might be some franchise, some teams where you can wonder like, are they investing as doing the right thing? In Baltimore, they absolutely are. And you know that Lamar Jackson feels as sick to today as you do. And I think that's the, the Ravens being the example is important because I think being a sports fan, and kind of we talked about with the Bengals, is about finding those little nuggets along the way. It's like seeing a guy that you've invested your time and energy in get better and improve and seeing the core group of players do the same and watching what Lamar has done at times this year. I mean, I know he won an MVP, but there's satisfaction in that. I mean, it's,

there's satisfaction in watching that process happen. And even if it's not going to be a linear trajectory one way or the other, kind of leaning into those ups and downs and understanding what comes with them, I think, is part of being a sports fan. And I think it's one of the parts that's worth it. And at least for you, a Ravens fan, good stuff is coming. Yeah, they're going to be fun. We've got so much, we got a lot more depressing stuff to get to. It's a lot, this would be a lot harder of a cell, I think, if it was a Jets fan calling us, asking us to make him feel better about, you know, make it not hurt because it's harder. It's harder to see that light. But we'll do the best we can to make it happen. All right. This one's a little bit lighter,

thankfully. Hey, Robert and Lindsay. This is Chris. I'm curious, Lindsay, what has been your favorite experience watching football with your daughter? And Robert, maybe, since you don't have kids, what was your favorite experience watching with your family growing up that you look back on? Mine would be my five-year-old son at the time, and I watched Tom Brady lose in the Super Bowl, throwing over a 500 yards and my son is bawling as he loses to them the joy of last year getting to watch Tom Brady win the Super Bowl with the bus. I thought this is a great question. I wanted to hear your answer because I'm sure that you've enjoyed kind of watching Lina

learn how to watch football and get more invested in it. Like that's probably a very satisfying experience as a pair. Yeah. I mean, so she's five. She just turned five this summer. So she, you know, she still doesn't have the attention span to like sit down and watch a full game. But I think there's a couple fulfilling things about it.

One, she gets really into picking the games and she wants to know who is winning every week. And if she's very invested on if she did a good job or not and if she got the games right, she always wants to know if she spends a lot of Sundays with her grandparents while I'm working and while my husband works. And so I'll get texts from my dad saying like, Lena wants to know who she picked in the Dolphins Falcons game, which is hilarious stuff to be getting from a five-year-old. So that part has been fun. You know, it's been fun, something that we can share.

But, you know, I think part of it, and this is probably not a direct answer to the question, but, you know, I kind of came up in this business at a time when, you know, I'm certainly not part of like the first generation of female sports writers. There are so many women who did this job before me who did it really, really well. But I never saw a lot of moms. There were a lot of moms, but there weren't a lot of. lot of women in the sports journalism business who kind of, it was almost like it was something that you had to hide and it was a liability and something that you couldn't embrace and you couldn't talk about

because maybe you wouldn't get the best assignments or you wouldn't be able to travel or, you know, it would put a ceiling on your career. I don't feel that way anymore. And I feel like part of me has this responsibility to kind of show other women that are trying to do this, that want to do this that are 10 years younger than me, that are thinking about starting families, that you can cover the NFL or the NBA or baseball or be a sports editor or be on television. And you can be a mom and you can do both. I feel like I'm failing at both pretty much all of the time because I think that's what parenthood and especially motherhood is. But I like bringing her into it. I like that she can see what I do so that when I'm gone, she kind of gets what I'm doing. And it's likely that we have a job that

we can do that. I don't think that would be as easy if I was, you know, at a convention for accountants or something, you know, where you could, that doesn't make as much sense. But I want her to see that I love what I do. I want her to be a part of it as much as I can. So I think that's been part of it. And yeah, it's been fun. And she asked like really cute questions. I think yesterday during the Monday night game, she asked me, what do the players sound like when I talk to them? Because I still think she thinks that they're like characters. Yeah. And I had to say, like they're just men like they're just people like they some of them have really low voices and some of them have quiet voices some of them talk like patrick mahomes yeah some sound like hermit the frog

and she asked so and then she said do you ask them how is the game and i said that's exactly what i do so she gets it which is really cool yeah it's it's a special special relationship to watch and enjoy sports with your parents and like that's why i love football is because the the relationship I have with the sport and my dad. You know, we, I grew up just watching Bears games with my dad and my family. We had season tickets when I was a little kid. I remember going with him. And I remember the experiences when I got older more so because it almost, I think the distance

and not living at home made it even stronger. Like, I vividly remember my freshman year of college when the Bears were really good. Bears went the Super Bowl that year. And it was a 2006 season. It was pretty magical. And I would call my dad every week after the game. I wouldn't call him on Monday because if the game had gone poorly, he would make me feel worse about it. And if the game had gone well, he would make me feel worse about it.

So I would wait 24 hours because he was such a Debbie Downer about it. If you wonder how I got my sports fan like pathos here, it definitely comes from him. So that was, that's one. I just remember those phone calls. And I vividly remember, I mean, this is heavy, but I vividly remember the last Bears game we went to before he died. Like just, it's an experience that will. stick with me for a really, really long time. We knew he was sick. We knew it would be the last one then he went to. We sat in the north end zone, which is where we always sat when I was a kid,

and the Bears played the Eagles on a Sunday night. They won. They had a goal line stand. It was such a cool moment. It was in 2008. And I remember if you've ever been to Soldier Field, it's way away from downtown. You have to walk kind of from Michigan Avenue out toward the lake, and it's on the campus where all the museums are. And it takes a ways to get out there. And it's a ways to get out there. And we walked back to the train. And we took the metro into the city. And just that walk kind of through the tunnels and when it's cold out and it just has this briskness in Chicago, this crispness in the area that just I still love. And I'll just remember that for a very long time.

So I have plenty of them. But that one certainly sticks with me. All right. Let's get to our next voicemail here. Hi, Robert. Lifelong, Steve, San here. Also, Mazzeo, Lam Roberts. just depressed about the chief, you know, 27 to 3.

I have no idea what we can do to fix things. So just give me some suggestions. Let's hear some advice from you guys. Thank you. What do you think? Where would you start with this year's chiefs? Well, they'd need to just stop committing turnovers, right? That's probably a good start.

Remember we just were talking about Lena. Lena had the best advice a couple of weeks ago. she said next time, be better, Chiefs, basically in that tone. Because they're competent, actually not even a competent. They're a potentially historically great offense when they're not committing four turnovers a game. And at some point, you have to feel like, okay, that is not going to continue. But it almost seems to be a feature and not a bug this year where there's just something

that is shifted within the mentality of that team. And specifically within Patrick Mahomes that maybe he's just trying to do too much that he's, he's, you know, there's something mechanically or they're just something that is leading to more turnovers that are going on with him where they know that they have to score 30 plus points a game. So he's trying to do things that he wouldn't have done before. So that's, I mean, you got to stop committing those sorts of turnovers. But, you know, we talked about this stuff with Nate Taylor a couple of weeks ago on the midweek show where, you know, kind of their guys are their guys.

You know, defensively, it's not like there's some savior that's coming in. they don't have somebody coming back off of injured reserve. They've already kind of pulled the rip court on some of the moves that they had to make by, you know, benching Daniel Sorensen and giving Juan Thorne Hill more playing time. You know, they're trying to do some adjustments with the linebackers to try to get a little bit younger and faster at that position. But kind of they are who they are on defense. And there's only so much, I think, that Steve Spagnolo can scheme with the guys that they

that they have. I mean, Nate's suggestions, right, were just to be like as, like, as gimmicky as possible. and just like blitz the shit out of everybody and just try to just try to come up with anything because you just can't line up in base with the guys that you have. And that's a really tough place to be to know that there's not a good answer to stop people. I mean, I think yesterday's game against the Titans, it kind of went how I don't think there was really anything that surprising about it. I mean, maybe I thought they would have scored more than three points.

But in terms of like getting just demolished by that Titans offense, the way that Tennessee has been playing lately. None of that was really surprising to me. I mean, they have no strengths on defense. Even if for a bad defense, you can say, well, this is what we do well. And they have nothing to lean into. The pass rush is non-existent. All the investments they've made in that area of the roster have not paid off. You know, you have Chris Jones who's playing in a couple different positions. You know, they've been banged up. Frank Clark has given them relatively like next to nothing. The linebacker situation is still a question mark. They had to skimp on the cornerbacks in the secondary just because they've spent so much money elsewhere.

And then I do think that they're pressing on offense. I think they have to find kind of a different version of themselves where it's not just big play after big play. And it's not just hunting for those all of the time. And I think that'll happen. Their offense is still incredibly efficient. I think they'll be fine on that side of the ball, obviously. Like they have the best quarterback in the league.

But to me, this is kind of a reminder that this happens. No matter what, if you have a great quarterback, these kind of downturns in the league. your trajectory as a franchise are inevitable. It's not as if Tom Brady was playing in the Super Bowl every single year. They had consistently good seasons. They won the division pretty much every single year. I think the Chiefs are still going to be a borderline playoff team when it's all said and done.

But there are going to be moments where things bottom out a little bit, where you kind of have to find yourself and it's not just smooth sailing all the way through. And I think that brings us to, in my opinion, what is a very interesting next question. This is from John Osterhout. He says, the conversation in the last couple of the last couple of things, years around the NFL of teams needing to be all in in order to win. With the lack of depth seemingly submarine in this chief season, does that dump cold water on this narrative or solidify it? With a generational talent like Mahomes, it seems to make more sense to have as many bites at the apple as

possible. Obviously, this is the first real adversity this team is seen, and it's too early to make any hot takes about the short, near-term state of the franchise, but the prospect of a few lost seasons in Mahomes seems like a massive bummer for the league as a whole. If you can't tell, I'm a Packers fan, and I'm totally ready to dump this wasting player X's prime narrative on another team as soon as possible. I'll hang up and listen. So I love this because I think that the way that John has kind of framed this is as a question about how you'd want to build around a generational talented quarterback.

Because what the Chiefs have done is they've pushed the chips in every single offseason where it's we're making these splash moves going to trade for Frank Clark. This offseason, they didn't just tinker with the offensive line. They traded away a huge amount of draft. capital to go get Orlando Brown, and they made Joe Tunney the highest paid guard in the league. These are big swings. The Packers, notoriously during Aaron Rogers' tenure, have done the opposite of this, where it's patience, it's built from within, draft and develop, we're not going to really spend a lot

of money outside the building. So do you think that there is a better way to do this? Do you think there is a preferred method if you have one of those guys? Yeah. Well, it's a little tricky because we don't know how the rest of this season. is going to play out. We really only have exactly where we are sitting right here on October 25th. Because this offense still might be good enough.

And if they, like we just kind of talked about, get this turnover problem under control, they still might be good enough to make it back to an AFC championship game. Maybe not good enough to win a Super Bowl because of all the flaws that we just talked about. I kind of want to know, I wish I could have that click, right, to fast forward to the future. So I could see what was going to happen here with the Chiefs in January or February because I think we could have a better assessment on if this,

model has worked out because it's kind of hard to argue with the results that we've seen in the previous couple of years. They've made three straight AFC championship games, back-to-back Super Bowls, and one championship. The Packers haven't been to a Super Bowl since 2010. I mean, it's been a decade, right? And you've had a lot of, you've had a lot of other, there have been to multiple NFC championship games since. Last year was the closest. I think they've come to actually winning an NFC championship game. Well, or the Seattle year. with the crazy onside kick. So there have been other chances where you've gotten close,

but you haven't actually gotten to that Super Bowl. So, you know, just getting kind of close is success. Does that count a success? Or we count a success only as making it to the Super Bowl. And we don't have enough, I think, years of evidence of the way that the chiefs are going to do this. Because, you know, 2018, when they made the AFC championship game, ended up losing to the Patriots, you know,

that was kind of a revelation of like nobody knew exactly I think everybody within the chiefs knew that Patrick Mahomes was going to be good. I don't think anybody realistically knew he was going to be that good that fast. 2019 felt like an all-in year. The Frank Clark trade. It was the Tyron Matthew signing. That was the like, okay, we're pushing to make a run now. We know what it takes to be what we're going to need to do to beat the Patriots, all of that sort of stuff.

This year, all of those things, offensive line, it almost feels to me less of like an all-in year and more of a let's just keep hanging on. and trying to keep the window open the way that we're currently constructed. And it's going to be telling how this experiment ends up and what they're going to have to do going forward. Because the current plan, I don't think, is going to work for that much longer. So I don't think that's a definitive answer to John's question. I think you have to do a little bit of both. And I just don't know.

I just think it's very clear that we're at a point where the chiefs are going to have to have some other sort of plan because financially they're going to have to. They were able to do things differently in 28, 2019 when Patrick Holmes didn't cost the type of money that he did. So, yeah, but let's not waste any of his years, please. I don't think there's an easy answer because this isn't a, there's a one thing causing this. If the chiefs have drafted well, we wouldn't be talking about the Frank Clark trade. We wouldn't be talking about the ways that they've spent money.

I just think that it's a combination of missing on draft. Picks. Missing on draft picks in one area, really. I mean, their defensive line in the way that they've spent there has not worked out for them because if you ascribe some draft capital of the Frank Clark deal on top of what they paid him, then it looks even worse. Two, I think that they've been short-sighted in some of the moves that they've made. I think that's undeniable.

Drafting a guy like McColl Hardman and having your first pick in back-to-back drafts being McCollardman and Clyde Edwards-Hillair is, well, let's just make the greatest offense we possibly can. screw the rest of it. And I think that is a short-sighted sort of decision that's rooted in a coach-driven organization. Or it's like, oh, just give me all the weapons and then we'll figure the rest out later. That was probably the wrong way to go about those sort of picks that high in the draft. And I think if you look at the way they went about building the offensive line,

I don't think you needed a $16 million guard with the holes that they have elsewhere. You know, do they go out and sign somebody like Matt Filer in free agency? and have for half the price, and then you go out and use the rest of that money elsewhere to shore up other aspects of the roster. I think in their minds it's been, well, if we just get, if we solve this problem, we'll cover up the rest of them.

And this offseason, this problem was the offensive line. So it feels like they've been really, they've made these kind of urgent moves in specific areas that have left them hamstrung in other places. And that's why there's an argument to, at least with the draft capital, or at least in some area, trying to take more of the long view. I think free agency is a weapon for teams, if you use the right way.

But I think that making every single move about whatever your problem is right now is probably not the best way to build a football team. And eventually, even if you have the best quarterback and the best offensive coach, that strategy and overall team building philosophy can get you in trouble. Yeah. And I mean, I think this question ultimately came from a Packers fan. And I wonder if the Packers, are going to start moving a little bit more into a different mold. I mean, all of a sudden,

now they've been signing like literally any guy who becomes available, right? I mean, it was Jalen Smith, and now it's Whitney Merciless, and, you know, now they're the ones who are kind of being aggressive. And is that signaling a change in philosophy or just a reality of, okay, this is where we are right now and we need to do something. But, you know, it's just tough because the window with Aaron Rogers is very nearly closed, right? I mean, it's, it's as small as it could be, right? Because we don't know what's going to happen with him later. So it's kind of shifting exactly what they need to do today and over the next two to three months.

I think that there's a balance. I think in modern team building, there's absolutely a balance. You know, the Packers had that one year where they threw on a lot of money in free agency because I think they had to because they were talent efficient in certain areas. But for the most part, you know, over the last 10 years, they've been hesitant compared to other teams. And I think if you look at a team like, you know, Tampa Bay, for example, obviously Tom Brady is a huge part of that. But like they went out and got shack bearer. They spent some money in free agency. I remember those really good Broncos teams were built with a combination of free agency and draft capital. I don't know how many questions I would get from people going,

how are the Broncos doing this? There's no way that they can afford all these guys. They must be cheating with the salary cap or something. And you could probably look at the Bucks books right now and say, how are they doing that? And there is a lot of kind of funny money that's going on because they've changed their philosophy right now because they are clearly a team that's going all in. When you define what does it look like and practice to be all in, it's what the Bucks are doing.

And it's kind of what the Rams have done as well. All right, let's get to another voicemail here. I want to answer this one very quickly. Hey, Robert. Onward here from the Bay Area. You and Nate and many your guests continually refer to Quick Game, which is a phrase that I think I can kind of understand conceptually, but could you be a little bit more specific about what that means,

what is included, what is not included, and how that kind of impacts general offensive play calling? Thanks. That is a term we use a lot, and it's just exactly what you think it is, quick passing game. So a lot of three-step drop stuff, like slant flat, curl flat, smash concepts, just a quarterback getting the ball out of his hands very quickly. So not a lot of deep-developing stuff down the field. You're looking at pretty much half the field for the most part, you know, one or two, like two-man route concepts and just getting the ball out of your hands very fast. So those are the stick, which Ney refers to a bunch.

That's a quick game concept. So that's what we're talking about when we refer to that kind of stuff. So not play action, but just like drop back, get them all out of your hands fast, sort of stuff. So that's really all there. Okay. Next one here, I didn't want to ask a specific question because we got five questions about Kyle Shanahan. Five, okay? One from Justin Hunter.

One from Christopher Amstrup. One for a voicemail from Sean in Nashville. David Campbell asked one. And Miko Heineninan from Finland also asked a question about Kyle Shanahan. So, Lindsay, we talked about. this a little bit on previous mailbags, but with all the questions we got, I felt like I wanted to address it again, because it seems like it's on everybody's mind. Where are we at with Kyle Shanahan and the Niners right now? I think this is a really kind of classic example of a

conflict between reputation and results, where there's a pretty big gap, I think, between Kyle Shanahan's reputation as a coach and the results of what he is actually produced in the time that he's been the Niners head coach. I mean, reputation-wise, right? It's offensive innovator, really creative play caller, quarterback guru. That's the reputation. That's what you think of when you hear Kyle Shanahan. Results are, what is he right now? 31 and 39 as a head coach in the regular season. He's had only one winning season in his first four years in San Francisco. That was the year they went 13 and 3, won the NFC championship game, lost the Super Bowl to the Chiefs. And right now, the Niners are two and four.

So, I mean, that's the result. I mean, that's who he is. You know, I think it's a coach speak to say, like, you know, who are you? And you'll say, oh, we're a two and four football team. I mean, he's a 31 and 39 head coach. Those results are not great. And we were kind of able to write off a lot of the losing early in his tenure in San Francisco because of quarterback issues, injuries, not having a quarterback when he arrived,

acquiring Jimmy G, Jimmy G, eventually getting hurt. But at some point, that kind of can't be an excuse anymore. So, you know, that honeymoon is over. He's gotten a contract extension. He's under contract now through 2025. I mean, I guess it's probably fair to ask if that was premature, right, to right to do that because he's rightfully getting questions about his play calling, personnel usage. Like, does he play favorites with guys? Does he put guys into the doghouse too quickly? I think there's still maybe some questions about just getting over the Super Bowl loss

and how that hit him and kind of what happened in that game and what that did to him probably emotionally, but also, like, philosophically and what it meant to him is, like, who he is as a play caller and how he views his roster and all of that sort of stuff. And now he's just put so much of him himself on the Tray Lance move. And, you know, we're seven weeks in here and they're in a really rough spot and no clear answers. So I think that's where we are right now and it's not a great place. Yeah, I definitely think there is a gap between his reputation and with the results have been

on the field. And at a certain point, you can't just keep explaining it away because of injury. They had to play without their starting quarterback for so often, so often over the past few years. And if you look at the efficiency numbers associated with some of the guys that, that had to play in those moments. That was kind of the argument, right? It was like, well, look what he gets out of Nick Mullins,

who's like second in the NFL and yards per attempt among anybody since he became a starter. And I do think that when you watch it offensively, it's still well constructed. You know, a lot of their run game stuff is some of the most interesting, advanced, effective stuff in the entire league. The passing game is limited? And to me, it's a question of, is the passing game limited because he doesn't trust his quarterback or is the passing game limited because his background and his strength as a coach doesn't really include a ton of expertise in the dropback game.

Is that not an area where they're ever going to be very good because it's this very specific type of offense? And I want to see what happens with Trey Lance, but I do think that they suffer from a lack of focus when it comes to the team-building aspects of this, right? You trade up for players, you make these big moves for guys and you sign all these guys that don't end up playing. You draft Brian Ayuk in the first round.

He has a pretty good rookie year, and now you're willingly playing guys like Muhammad Sunu and Trent Sherfield when you spent a first-round pick on a guy a year ago. And it almost feels like they're making it harder on themselves than they need to. And that's the concern for me is that it's just consistently, well, we need this guy and then it'll be fine. Ah, you know what? Not that guy. We need this guy.

And then it'll be fine. You know what? Not that guy. And I think that's a concern when you have a coach who has such a hand in the way that that roster is built. So as a play designer, I still think he's very good. You know, you watched that game yesterday. There's a lot of cool shit. But I think it's important to not be blinded by the cool shit.

And I will admit that I tend to get there sometimes because I am very interested in him. I think he's a very capable and creative football coach. But I do think that overall, the results have been wanting. And I think that there's a lot of reasons for that. But eventually you are what your record says you are to a certain extent. And I think it's also been, you know, I don't want to try to get like too much into his psyche or anything like that. But, you know, he is a guy who he wears his emotions pretty clearly, like when he's at a press conference or when he's out in public. And there was a

Twitter thread on Monday afternoon from David Lombardi, who's one of our 49ers, beatwriters. You can go read the whole thing. It's way too many tweets for me to read. But his handle is at Lombardi himself. And I'll read the first one. And I just think it's kind of telling for like where the Niners are at right now. and he said, we're not in the locker room. But I can say Shanahan's presser energy has been at an all-time low. It seems he's a different person than the fast-talking, informative coach we used to see. I have to strain to hear him. And when we talk about team-wide on-field malaise, that's worth noting.

He just said he's seen, like, they just feel different. And it is hard when you're not in the locker room. You don't get that same sense as a reporter or beatwriter covering the team. But there is just kind of a noticeable lack of energy and just malaise. It's like a really good word to use. And I want to see if they can pull themselves out of this and what it's going to take. Could it be a Tray Lance Spark? They just need something to pull themselves out of this funk.

And I hope for Kyle Shanahan's sake, he can be the one to reinvigorate. Like find comes up, come up with something new and creative and, you know, pick up a couple wins this month. Because, yeah, it just feels really bad around there right now. If you look at it, I think that their results have been better on the whole. in part because of aspects of the roster that have been better. But I think Sean McVeigh went through a similar thing last year where you run into this roadblock offensively, and that's why you know you need something else a quarterback.

And what have we seen from them? They are the best offense in the league now. And I don't necessarily think the Trellance will right away make the Niners the best offense in the league. But I want to see what the next version of this offense looks like when he gets a chance. Luckily for the Rams last year, they were self-aware enough to understand

we need to do something defensively. They went out and got Brandon Staley. They were the best defense in the league last season. That carried them during a down year on offense, and they were still a playoff team. The Niners don't have that version of themselves. But I do want to see what their next stage looks like because they also made a similar calculation

where they said, we're not good enough at quarterback. It's limiting us offensively. We need something different. So I do want to see that before I make any kind of sweeping conclusions because it's not as if the Rams offense was firing on all cylinders last year. I think there were a lot of questions about it, and now look what it looks like with Matthew Stafford.

So I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt just until I see what they look like with Trey Lance over the next year or so. I guess the good news is they play the Bears this week. It's a good time to get right. All right, Lindsay, this one is mostly for you. Let's get to our next voicemail here. Hello, this is Alaric Williams.

Longtime Broncos fan, been listening to the show for about two years now after my brother recommended it to me. I've got a question about the Broncos. This is the third straight week that watching the Broncos game, the offense has gotten hot in the end of the game. But the defense has been atrocious, terrible, awful, all sorts of terrible things. I'm wondering what is going wrong with the Broncos defense? Thank you. Lindsay, what do you think?

So much. How much time do we have? I'm glad he kind of glossed over the offense because I think there's a lot we could talk about about the issues that are going on with the Broncos or with the Broncos offense as well, with Teddy Bridgewater with Pat Shermer and the play calling. They've been very boring. They consistently throw short of the sticks on third down. Like, there's a lot of stuff that's been frustrating about their offense. But the defense specifically has been one of the biggest disappointments in the NFL this year. They're the highest paid defense in the league for the state. second straight year.

They've allocated $97.4 million to their defense according to over the cap. And they're not getting anywhere close to matching that sort of production. There's certainly injuries that have been an issue and kind of an excuse, right, for some of the down production. Losing Bradley Chubb for a big chunk of the season, they expect that he'll be able to play at some point later this year, but the fact that they haven't had him at all, that's a really big deal. I mean, Vic Fangio kind of built this defense around having Von Miller on one side

and Bradley Chubb on the other. And we're going to be at a point very soon, probably the end of the season, that we've just never gotten the full, honestly, not even the partial. But we've never gotten the Bradley Chubb von Miller experience because of injuries to one or the other of them. And they're not getting a pass rush. I mean, they have opposing offenses have consistently found ways to neutralize Von Miller. And that's through a quick game.

We talked about the quick, you got a question about the quick game before. Go back and watch what the Browns did last week to the Broncos. Go watch what the Steelers did to the Broncos a couple weeks ago. That's a quick game. That's, you know, getting rid of the ball in two and a half seconds or less. It's, you know, screen pass, screen pass. I mean, the Broncos are completely vulnerable to the short passing game. And, you know, part of that, they have no inside linebackers.

The linebacker problem is a real problem. Yeah, I mean, they lost Josie Jule and Alexander. Johnson, who are their two starting inside linebackers, both of those guys are done for the season with both with pectoral injuries, which is kind of odd. The guy who was promoted to replace Alexander Johnson. He is now on injured reserve. The Broncos have pulled up two trades for linebackers in the last week. One is an outside linebacker, Stephen Weatherly. And then just earlier today, Kenny Young from the Rams, who's an inside linebacker, who I expect we will see starting immediately because they literally have nobody else. So those are really big issues. They're able to, you know, just kind of, you know, bad quarterbacks are able to pick them apart in the short game. Ben Rathesberger, Case Keenham did it. You neutralize von Miller. You take advantage of those bad linebackers. And then they have not, their secondary just has not lived up to the expectations.

They have not lived up to the money that's being paid back there. They've been having some lot of like really uncharacteristic communications issues. Things are inexcusable when you have Justin Simmons and Kareem Jackson as your safeties. You should not be having as many blown coverages. on deep passes across the middle as, as they are when those are your guys. Kyle Fuller has been bad. I mean, just frankly, he's been bad and now he is a non-factor. He played two snaps against the Raiders, zero snaps against the Browns in week seven.

So they're, you know, I think their corners are okay. You know, I think Patrick Sartan, Jr. has played pretty well. I think he's going to be a really good cornerback for a long time. Ronald Darby has been okay. but if everything else, if your front seven is a mess, like their front seven has been and you're having miscommunications on the back end, like it doesn't really matter how well your rookie cornerback is playing. So that's a long way to say everything is wrong.

It's a little bit of everything. You know, they've blitzed, I think, at the second or third highest rate in the entire league, which is not the way that they want to live. It's the only way that they can get pressure, which is very uncharacteristic. And so when you do that, the structure of everything that you want to,

do has to change. And it starts to crumble a little bit. And I think that's a big part of it. And you watch that Browns game. I mean, the linebackers are just all over the place. I mean, they just have no shot against a team that loves making you wrong. Just with their run game, the screen game. Those guys, their heads were spinning. And you can understand why they felt like they had to make a move. So I think a lack of ability to rest the passion with four, I think that real issues at linebacker. And then I think that if affecting the structural integrity of your defense because you have to consistently bring more bodies is something that they've run into. And they're not a bad defense. They're just average, which they need to be better than average.

Yeah. I mean, our expectations were that they were going to be a top 10, top five type of defense. And I think they're suffering also a little bit from kind of the overall team demise, you know, the stuff that's going on, you know, very familiar stuff. If you're a long time Broncos fan, Alaric, you are very familiar with what's going on here where the offense has been really bad. They can't sustain drives. That's putting the defense in really bad situations regularly when the offense, a lot of the stuff that we've seen go on around the Broncos over the last three, four,

five years. They're kind of right back in that situation. And it's just disappointing because this was the year that you thought maybe it would be different, the way that this defense was constructed, the type of talent. You know, if there's questions about Vic Fangio's competence as a head coach,

you shouldn't have had that about him as a defensive play caller. But now all of a sudden, you listen to Denver Sports Radio and it's should should he give up defensive play calling? Is he, should he just be the defensive coordinator? A lot of this stuff now where questioning Fangio's competence as a defensive coach, which should not happen. I mean, he's one of the greatest defensive minds that the NFL has ever seen. So it's unfortunate that it's kind of come to this.

But yeah, it's a bad place right now. And I know, to circle back to the question about my daughter and parenting, she came home on Sunday afternoon. And my father-in-law had been coaching her to not pick the Broncos anymore because they can't stop anybody on defense. So we'll see. We'll see if she, you know, her heart is picking her hometown team. And we'll see if that changes against the Washington football team this week on

Halloween. It's an informative experience for her. It's important to learn these things early. All three, because this is our fun, whatever, mailbag podcast. One of our goals, so Marissa, who produces our Wednesday show. So she also produces the Lena podcast. And our goal has been to get people excited and start sending Lena gear of other teams. So she now has a Cleveland Brown shirt, which Marissa sent her.

And then my friend Rachel, who is from Buffalo, sent Lena a Buffalo Bill's hat. So she now has a Broncos jersey, a Bill's hat, and a Brown's T-shirt. So if anybody out there wants to try to sway her to another fandom, DME will make that happen. She has a bear's hat too, doesn't she? She does have a bear's hat? Yeah. And she does have a bear's hat. but I'm not quite ready to subject her to your brand of misery.

Well, speaking of a certain brands of misery, let's get to our last voicemail here. Hey, Robert Mays. Big Fanny Work. It's Nick here in London, another British Jets fan. There's a few of us sharing the pain over here. So I guess aside from the general question of, is it going to be okay? I hope it's going to be okay. Two related questions.

So after Zach got injured yesterday, and with the prospect of two to four weeks in Mike White, has the Jets not having a viable QB backup been exposed, or is that kind of narrative that's often spun about a quote-unquote veteran presence behind a rookie or a young quarterback overrated? And then second question, after all the preseason optimism, is it justifiable to be worried about a new coaching staff after six games? The Fleur was supposed to be this great offensive mind,

but it didn't seem to have done a lot. from playcalling or personnel to help out Zach so far. And Salah seems like an awesome guy, but yesterday was straight out of the Gay's playbook and the kind of meek surrenders. Anyway, keep up the good work and hope Justin Fields and Zach can prove the doubt as wrong, and all of our hopes and dreams can be satisfied.

Cheers, bye. I love that. Thank you, Nick. I also love Meek surrenders. It's just a beautiful way to put it. Meek surrenders the story of the Adam Gase era with the Jets. So can we clip the part where he says, hope all of our hopes and dreams are realized because I just want to say that. That's, that was brilliant.

That's great. That's up to you, buddy. You can grab that so we can use that for later. Let's get to both of these questions. I do believe if I were building a team and I was starting from scratch in kind of a way that the Jets were, right? They spent a lot of money in free agency. They have a lot of this draft capital.

I would want a veteran quarterback to be my backup quarterback. I would want a guy like. name your dude, a Sean Mannion, what Matt Schaub was for you. Matt Schop is a different kind of case, but just a guy with experience in the system that has been in this offense, that knows how it works, that can just be a resource. One of the things that the Chargers did this offseason that I loved that I've said multiple times is going out and getting Chase Daniel and just having him be a sounding board for Justin Herbert about the way the offense works.

He was a big influence in just the way that Herbert interact. interacted with the coaching staff. It's like, all right, well, how do I talk to them about this? Well, this is how you do that. I do think that is important for any sort of young quarterback, and I do think the Jets not doing it is a misstep. I don't think it's the biggest deal in the world, but I do think that finding a guy for that spot can be helpful for your young quarterback.

And obviously, I mean, this is something they never could have anticipated, but Greg Knapp passing away before the season started, it only compounds that problem because now you have no voice. You know, it's just Michael Fleur and whoever is kind of overseeing that kind of stuff. But it's a real lack of resources for a young quarterback coming from multiple different directions. Yeah. So I think that it's right. I mean, I absolutely would have done that.

I mean, you looked at the rosters around the league this summer and you kind of had to say this is a big problem. Like, you kind of had to see this coming, right? But there was a potential that Zach Wilson would get hurt at some point and they would need a veteran quarterback. I will say literally while we are sitting here recording this question about the Jets backup quarterback situation, Mike Garifolo from NFL Network reported that the Jets are trading for Joe Flacco. So there is their backup quarterback. But wasn't he there last year? Or was that two years ago?

He was. I think he was there last year. So he probably should have just stayed there. He would have been the right kind of guy. You know, he's at a point in his career where he's not the, he's not where he was at with Drew Locke a couple of years ago where he was, going to mentor a guy. But yeah, they should have sound they should have drafted somebody or or signed somebody, excuse me, with experience in the Shanahan offense. You mentioned Matt Schaub.

And what Matt Schaub did for so long was he was basically a Shanahan translator. Like he would, he would take that offense and put it in English. And, you know, maybe Greg Knapp was going to be that for Zach Wilson. Maybe he was going to be part of that. But this is not a scheme that is easy. This is not something that happens quickly. So I'm not ready to write off the coaching staff there yet. I mean, I think, you know, Mike LaFleur is so young in his play-calling career. And this scheme notoriously takes a long time, even for veteran quarterbacks. I mean, look at Matt Ryan, like how long it took him to kind of fully grasp what was going on. And, you know, his first year in it was not great. So I want to give patience or preach patience with

the coaching staff. I do think it was a miscalculation to not. build that quarterback room differently when they had the chance. You know, sometimes you want the capable veteran quarterback because he can keep you on the tracks if your guy gets injured. You know, it's a guy who can win you a couple games. And the Jets weren't in a place where they really need it, weren't going to need like, okay, it's not about winning games right now, but it's more about the overall development. And Mike White, he's just not providing that, right? I mean, I don't know who else they could have. You don't want to be in this position.

You don't want to be in a position where when you're starting quarterback gets hurt, you think the first thing is, oh, we need to trade for somebody. That's a sign that you needed to shore this up before that that injury happened. That you never want to be in that spot. I do tend to agree with you about being patient because, I mean, this is a team that has been devastated by injuries this year. I mean, you look at the guys who started for them on Sunday, okay? Let's take a quick gander at this. All right. George fans play and left tackle.

All right. You have Bryce Huff as one of your starting defensive ends where Carl Lawson was supposed to be. You have Quinn and Williams' brother starting it inside linebacker instead of C.J. Mosley. I mean, the corners, it's not a good situation. Like, this is a team that had a long way to go and they're hurt. I definitely don't want to kind of say this is a disaster.

And like, we're six games in. And like, I can't believe this is just the Jets all over again. I think there's definitely better days ahead, but I can understand as a Jets fan, we talked about this on the show last night. It's tough. It's tough to come into this season, hoping that things are going to start going in a different direction

and hoping this would have a different feel than what you've experienced over the last couple years and for that not to happen. But I do think that can't explain everything away. Their offensive line issues are a huge problem, and those guys are, there are communication issues, execution issues.

Those are things you want to see better play overall. and just a higher standard. But I definitely think that it's way too early to be disappointed about what they've gotten from the Sala era. Yeah. And I think what's hard is, well, so Sala came in because, one, he is a really good defensive coach. And he proved that over the course of his career, but especially over the last couple of years, the Niners, where he had a ton of talented guys. And then last year where he had a ton of injured guys and still kept that defense on track.

He also was hired because they needed a complete organizational reset. And a lot of what he is going to bring is going to be. able to keep them going through this sort of adversity and, you know, trying to play the long game here. And what's really hard and frustrating, I think, for the Jets about what happened on Sunday, is that really success this season, and we talked about this at the beginning of this season, was how do you define success for most of the teams? But specifically for the Jets was, what do you get out of Zach Wilson? What sort of development are you seeing out of him? And now a big chunk of that is going to be gone. Fortunately, this doesn't seem to be a long-term injury.

it's hopefully only several weeks and he'll be able to be back, but it's just delaying all of that stuff. And this year was all about making sure you have the guy and getting him ready to be the guy for the long term. And you're just not going to be able to do that when Joe Flacco and Mike White, are your quarterbacks? All right. Guys, that's all we got.

Thank you very much for some of you are interesting, some of your depressing questions. We'll be back next week. We've got several Eagles questions. I'm going to wait on those because Ben Solac from the Ringer is coming on next week. And we're inevitably going to have some Eagles chatter. So feel free to send those in here over the next week if you want some Eagles updates. Speaking of sadness from Ben, until then, please continue to rate and review the podcast on Apple or wherever you listen.

I would sincerely appreciate that. Please subscribe to the athletic.com slash football show. We'll be back tomorrow with a couple of my buddies from PFF, Seth Galena and Deontes. Hey, Lee. We're going to talk about some trends that have emerged on offense and defense over the first half of the season. Those guys know that stuff way better than I do. So I'm going to pick their brains for an hour. Hope you guys will enjoy that. Mitchell will also be back this week. So please come back and check that stuff out. Until then, we really appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show. And all of our hopes and dreams can be satisfied. Cheers, bye.