The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Matthew Bowen picks the best play designers in the NFL and an Indianapolis Colts Team Visit with Stephen Holder and Zak Keefer

Episode Date: December 16, 2020

First up, Robert welcomes ESPN’s Matthew Bowen to the show to give his thoughts on the best play designers and play callers in the NFL this season, including perennial favorites like Kyle Shanahan, Andy Reid, and Bill Belichick, as well as some under the radar coaches who deserve some credit. =Plus, The Athletic’s Stephen Holder and Zak Keefer stop by for an Indianapolis Colts Team Visit to discuss the team’s potential to win the AFC South, the job Matt Eberflus has done with the defense, Frank Reich’s faith in Philip Rivers at quarterback, how far they could go in the playoffs this season, who might be the team’s starting QB next season and beyond, and much more.And, from now through December 31, you can get an annual subscription to The Athletic and give one free when you visit theathletic.com/footballshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. Great show for you guys. Stephen Holder and Zach Kiefer are going to be joining us later in the show through our Colts team visit. Had a great time with both of those guys. Before we do that, though, I am thrilled to welcome ESPN analyst, co-host of NFL matchup, eight-year NFL safety, somebody who I consistently ask about the nuts and bolts of football, Mr. Matt Bowen. Matt, thank you so much for doing this.

I appreciate you having me on, Robert. You're somebody I ask football questions to all of the time. You have been a present resource for me for a while, which I sincerely appreciate. You also host a show or are on a show about play design. If you haven't watched NFL matchup, you absolutely should. It's on an ungodly hours of the morning, but that's why DVR exists. And I felt like this was the perfect way to use your knowledge base of play design by asking you to go through, in your opinion, the best play designers and play callers

in the NFL this season. Yeah, we had a good conversation setting it up. And it would look, like you were talking about pre-show, I sent you probably too many names, but that's what you get into. When you start watching all this tape, you start to gravitate towards schemes you like on both sides of the football, obviously. But it's hard, man. You ask for the top four on offense.

I probably could give you eight or nine just from this season. because I think this season, especially offensive football this season, has been really, really good in national football. That's why you're a man after my own heart. I asked you to give me four offense and two defense, and you gave me eight offense and four defense, which that's exactly how I would respond to that question. So I appreciate you.

Let's get going here because, again, we have a lot to get to. Let's start off with the guy you sent me at the top of your list on the offensive play callers in the league. And that is a man who I think has had the throne for a while now. and that is Kyle Shanahan. So I want to ask you if you've seen or what you've seen from him that's different than maybe what we saw five years ago. What has been different about the way he's constructed this offense

and why do you think he still deserves that top spot, even if in terms of the numbers and some of the other markers of success, the Niners' offense hasn't rolled like it has in years past. Well, it hasn't rolled in years past. I think obviously there's been some key injuries on outside of the football. There's no question about that. You lose something like George Kittle. It was a key element to your offense.

You lose Jim your quarterback, which seems like a thing. Yeah. Well, you lose Jimmy Garoppel. No, Jimmy Garoppel is not in the top tier of quarterbacks in the National Football League, but he fits because Kyle caters to his traits of the position. And you see what he's trying to do now with Nick Mullins. He's trying to cater that offense to Nick Mullins. And that's a sign of great coaching.

In terms of play design, you know, I always look at Kyle Shanhan's offense because you can learn stuff from it. Every time you watch the tape, you can learn something based on formation, personnel alignment and specifically play design. I think it starts with the run game and how they create angles in the run game because they can take basic run schemes, Robert, that we've seen for 20 plus years in the National Football League. And I don't like the term dress them up. I like to enforce them or to make them stronger.

And a lot of that comes from pre-imposed snap movement. You will see it out of two-back personnel. You see it out of one-back personnel, how they create angles and blocking to the second level for their offensive alignment. And they do that with a lot of misdirection, as we know, when you tax the eyes of defensive players and you get them to take false steps or go the wrong direction, which still happens on Sundays in pro football, now you get better angles. When you use jet motion to widen the edge players, now you get better angles. You use that orbit or ghost, that wide receiver fake reverse motion. What does that do?

That grabs the eyes, especially on edge players. Now you get better angles for your gap schemes or you can pull and kick out or your zone schemes where you can lead with someone like Kyle used to. And that's a key name because of how he utilizes how he use check. He can do everything for him. You see how they utilize them in the past game. He can flex in the formation. They can sneak him out of the backfield on rail or wheel routes. What he does for the quarterback in the past game.

I remember looking at the numbers last year. Jimmy Garoppel is almost at the top or near the top in terms of production on throws between the numbers. That's where he's best. Yeah, well, that's where they want to push the football, Robert. So how do they do that? they're excellent in occupying defenders. They're excellent at using that misdirection to create open throwing windows. And that allows his quarterbacks who do have limitations and throw on time and on rhythm to open window targets and give them proper ball placement.

Now you have players like Adivo Samuel, Rand and I, O'O., the rookie this year, who will have excellent run after the catch traits, which you also see with Kittle. Because he's, in my opinion, the best in the most complete tight end in the national football league and also with Ushed check. I think he does the best at utilizing his personnel and scheming specifically to attack defensive personnel. What's so cool to me is that I thought that Kyle was the best play caller in the NFL five years ago, when they were in Atlanta and you saw what he did with Matt Ryan in 2016. But even if you watch that offense, it's much more traditional and much more in the parameters of that Kubiak-Shanahan system that we've come to know.

It's a lot of under center, a lot of play action, a lot of boots, a lot of moving the pocket. Now you watch what they do, and there are a lot of the same aspects of that. I think designs in the passing game specifically, you see a lot of similarities. But all of the motions, all of the strange alignments in the backfield, whether it's two backs out of shotgun where DiBos Samuel is one of the backs or all of these things that aren't traditional aspects of that offense that you would associate with Kalashana. And I think that's why it's been so impressive to watch because all of these wrinkles and so many different aspects of this and levels of this

are completely new to the guy we would have construed Calhachanahan as five years ago. I think that's been the coolest part to watch over the last two seasons is him building this version of it based on the personnel that they have in San Francisco. I would agree. You know, one route stands out through. I did a piece for ESPN during that Super Bowl season. And I put, it was, you know, basically I drew him up on this software. We put it together in a ESPN post.

on, you know, Shanahan's top 15 plays or 15 go-to plays. You still see a lot of that in San Francisco. Back to your point, you still see those plays. One of them I call cross-country dagger. And cross-country dagger is you're bringing a deep endbreaker, but you're stretching the defense with like a deep over in front of it. Okay. And he used to run that out of, like you said,

your standard eye back alignment out of 21 personnel. And now he does it out of every personnel. It doesn't matter. You know, but he's running that route. that goes to your point, is that how coaches adapt and change and grow based on years of experience, based on new personnel they have, and based on new ideas of how to attack defensive personnel with the same concepts, what they look different to the defense when you come out of the huddle. One of the things I've really been impressed by is when you watch them play, especially Ayuk as a young

guy, their feel for zone coverage is so good. He has his understanding of spacing and depths and all of those aspects of the position that you would associate with older players are already really well developed and that's clearly coaching points and you can just tell that they beat that into those guys and watching those two guys play together Iyuk and Samuel. It's so

interesting because I think coming out a lot of people made connections between them because of that run after catchability but stylistically they're so different. Samuel is this violent player. I mean he had a little, he stacked Levi Wallace on a play against

Buffalo where Levi Wallace had intense inside leverage and Debo managed to beat him on a slant just because of how aggressive and violent the movement was. Ayuk almost moves like tall Alvin Camara, just how smooth he is in the open field. And watching them tap into the same sorts of players with those stylistic differences, it just seems like only Shanahan could have a feel for those guys the way that he does. No, I think that's a great point because Debo Samuel in terms of his physical traits is unique. I mean, when you give him the football, it doesn't matter if it's on a route, on a jet sweep, on a reverse. He turns into a running back, almost inviting contact at times. You don't very, very often see that with

wide receivers. I agree on Ayok. You saw that in his Arizona State film, just his ability, and it doesn't, and it's a great point because I don't know what he ran in the 40. I don't really care because you could see it on film. He's got game speed. And I like the comparison you made there to Alvin Camara because he does, he's almost like a glider. And, the open field. Yep. And there's ways to scheme for that. But the route concepts and how they get from the football,

they could do that the same way. It's just how they produce after the catch. It's really a great job going back to your point two of how well coached they are. And you can tell that when you watch tape of how well coached, specifically when you're looking at position groups and on different teams and how well coached the San Francisco 49ers really are. It's, you had that deep shot against Buffalo going on. It was a corner out to the left side.

and I think that's one of the things we see that smoothness come through. There are guys that are able to redirect at full speed, the way that Tyree Kill can. You and I have talked about this, how speed guys at times have trouble changing direction, and that's why their ceiling as receivers are limited. IUC already just so casually can do that at full go. And I just am very excited to see what he's going to look like for the rest of his career. All right, let's move on to our next one here. Another very familiar name, Mr. Andy Reed, and what they're doing in.

Kansas City. I want to talk about this. I'm glad you mentioned him because I think it's so easy now to get your eyes glazed over when you watch the Chiefs and just be beaten to death by the greatness and not understand it and not fully appreciate it because we're so used to it. I want to ask you, what do you think of the underrated aspects of what make Andy Reid great? I know we know all the crazy plays and the motions and all these things that are fun wrinkles, but what subtle parts of the way their offense is created really stand out to you. I think how you can scheme guys open because I agree with it. We do take it for granted.

It's almost like last week when, you know, a different player, but I looked at the stats in the end of the third quarter and like Derek Henry had like a 195-yard rush. I was like, oh, okay, I guess, you know, you just think that's, okay, that's fine. This is another 200-yard day for Derek Henry. Same thing with Mahomes. You know, and it's getting to the point like where Mahomes had a slow start last week. And people were like shocked.

oh my gosh he's he's not lighting it up immediately um so we do take it for granted at times that patrick mahomes is the best quarterback in the national football league he has what i call scheme transcendent traits okay i think there's only three players that have that it's patrick mahomes it's aaron rogers and russell wilson you can put them in any system and they're going to produce because they have the arm talent they have the mobility or second reaction ability they can process and diagnose um and you add those together within any system They can be productive. But specifically in this system,

we've looking for, you know, subtle things. I think it's the ability to scheme guys open. And what I mean by that is not in man coverage. I'm talking about when you see zone coverage. When you're playing defensive tendencies, you know you're going to get how he'll not just flood the field. He'll overload one side of the field. He'll get four receivers strong.

You'll get four strong to find a pocket for Travis Kelsey to run a curl route or a spot for Tyreek kill to run a deep curl. He will overload you on defense and counter whatever. you are based on your tendencies in terms of coverage and alignment. The other thing with Andy Reed is I think how hard he works inside the red zone. Okay, I did a piece this past summer on the top red zone team, right? In Kansas cities, you know, they're not usually near the top. Why?

One, because they're a vertical stretch team, right? That's what they are. They are what I call a strike zone team. So that, for me, it's the 20 to 35 yard line. That's where you take your shots towards the end zone. And they are awesome. Well, for them, it seems like it goes out to midfield. You can say that.

I'll say the plus 40. The plus 40 in it. But they have to work hard in the red zone, right? Because as a defensive player, you don't care about verticals, especially when you get inside the low red zone plus Ted Garn line in. You don't care. You don't even back pedal, Robert. If you do, your defensive backcote should take you out of the game.

There's no reason to back pedal down there. You have the end line to help you. So guys like Tyree Kill, Miko Hardeman, you know, Sammy Watkins, Robinson. You can't run the verticals. can't see that vertical speed. So what does Andy reed do? He becomes instead of a vertical stretch offense, a horizontal stretch offense, especially in the red zone. That's where you see the jet sweeps. That's where you see the fly motion. That's where you see the reverse. That's where you see all this misdirection mixed together. What he's trying to do is grab your eyes, similar to what we talked

about with Kyle Shanahan, but then he has the speed on the edge. If you take a false step against Tyree kill, it's taking me. It's over. You're not going to recover. You're not getting there, right? So I think one of the greatest things about Andy is what he has done as a coach with this specific personnel. Because I played against Andy's teams when I was in Washington. We played him twice a year. Those Philadelphia teams, much different personnel, much different personnel. Obviously, that changed when T.O. came to Philly. But before that, I mean, it was Todd Pinkston.

It was McNabb. It was more about Westbrook. It was more about how he utilized Westbrook. And that's the fun thing, right, is you still see that aspect to it. Their screen game is still so good. and they're so good at creating space for running backs, but now they've grafted onto this offense that has the most speed of any single unit

I think we've ever seen in the history of the league. No, we have. And you mentioned a screen packer's, it's one of the best in the NFL, of how he will set up screens off of, he will set up screens off a boot. You know what I mean? It's just, it's different stuff,

it's creative stuff. And I agree, you know, the stuff we see, like with Patrick Mahomes going in motion and then coming back and getting the snap. You have obviously have to have a lot of confidence to make those calls. You also have the personnel. So what he does in terms of his base concepts, how he schemes open players, especially

when they're in three by one sets, okay, when they're in three by one and Travis Kelsey's to the backside, I think that's what some of Andy Reid's best play going is how he gets guys open, especially on that deep over route. So if you're a cover three team, you will get that deep over open every time because you'll occupy the backside corner with Kelsey, run a deep curl, deep comeback. deep out, get that corner to bite, and he's to throw it right behind its head. You know, it's just small things like that

where you're taking this, you know, this amazing personnel and this amazing speed that we've never really seen put together in one football team with the best quarterback in the national football league. Then you add scheme to it. And that's the other thing. You add scheme to it.

Hey, man, I'm trying to figure out, looking ahead to this week, you know, the Saints. I love that secondary. I love that secondary against Kansas City. I don't, you know, I don't. I don't know, you know, because they are so talented and so heavily schemed under Andy Reed. It's amazing because it's the best version of all of these guys. And I think that's what's cool about it is this is the best possible version of Travis Kelsey,

not only with his production, but with the way that he uses him as the backside guy on those three by one sets to dictate coverage to Mahomes. It's almost like he uses these guys as tools in the best possible way. And that's why when it all comes together, it's so special. So when you look at the Saints and you look at defenses overall and how they play against this team, do you have just kind of the start of a plan? Like what aspects of defense do you feel like you would try to lean on against them? Or is it just kind of taking knee and pray, like you mentioned earlier? No, I think if I'm the Saints, look, the Saints are a heavy two-man team, you know, cover two-man. It's two-de-man.

It's two-deep men underneath. The worry I would have as a defensive coordinator is because of Mahomes' movement ability. Mahomes is one of the best scramblers in the national football league too. The most efficient scrambler in the league this year, which is unfair. Right. And you don't have to, you don't need the traits of Kyla Murray to be the best scramble. That shows you right there with Mahomes. Know when to scramble, know how to scramble, know where the sticks are, and know what the defense is giving you. So if you play two men against Mahomes, you can do it.

You just have to have the saints with their edge rushers, the real wide edge rushers, almost have your defensive tackles like two gappers pushing up the field and trying to keep him in that pocket. Then you can play two men because the saints are super aggressive. They are grabbing in coverage, which all good man coverage teams are. They have two safeties that can drive top down the football. If you can't play enough two man, though, I think you play a lot of quarters because I think you have to cut the crossers. I think you have to cut the deep overouts with your safeties. But, you know, and look, you do that, but here's the problem. Anytime you play Kansas City, and this is just my opinion, Robert,

I still think the key to that passing game, obviously outside of Mahomes, is trying to Travis Kelsey. If you play band coverage or if you lock your backside corner versus those three about one set, you have to have the physical coverage traits and high level competition in your game to play against Travis Kelsey. You have to physically match it. And not many people can't. Miami tried it with Eric Rowe. And I thought that was a good match. Travis Kelsey made a lot of plays in Eric Rowe this past one. He certainly did. It's so funny because you think he's almost like a skeleton key for them where he opens up everything else. But so is Hill.

That's the thing that's so nuts is that they have two guys that you can create and shape a passing game around that everyone in the league would kill for. And they have two of them. It's just an embarrassment of riches. Right. And then when they run verticals, when they run verticals out of three by one and that deep overall, if your post safety is crossing your face, I'm going to go jump it. You can't because me, me, Cole Hardman is number two.

And he's running down the field. So that's the other part of this is that you're stuck in the post now because if you leave the post, that's a touchdown to Harvard. Okay, so there's not a right answer. And that's, you know, that goes back to where to talk about their strike zone, which I say is a 20 to 35-yard line really starts at midfield for them because they can attack you so many ways. They can attack you vertically. In the red zone, they can attack you horizontally. They're great in the screen game. And this is the other thing, Robert.

They remind me of the old Patriots teams, okay, because they can beat you however they want. Go back to, it was like what, like a Monday afternoon game when they played Buffalo game. Yeah. And they said, you know what? You're going to play too high safeties on us? We're going to attack your defensive front. And they ran the ball like crazy. You know, and that's the tough part of bottom is if you take one thing away,

Andy Reid has now shown us, he's perfectly fine with that. We'll beat you another way. I'd still rather lose that way. I would still rather sit back with two high safeties and just say, you better beat me with the run on the ball because I just think it's the safer way to die. No, it is, Robin. And that's the first thing you have to do. You can't give up explosive plays to them because the game's over.

You just can't. You can't try to outscore them. I don't think you can. You have to try to steal possessions, whether our defense or special teams. And even if you do that, Mahomes is still going to get eight or nine possessions. He's probably going to score on four of them. So that's why there's such a tough matchup and which we'll get to what they can do on defense with Spags as well. I'm excited to talk about that.

So let's get to somebody who doesn't have nearly as high of a profile, but somebody we talked about last week on this show. And that's Brian Dable of the Bills. I wanted to ask you this is just kind of a general question. If you were characterizing the Bills offense, if someone asked you what kind of offense do the Bills run, how would you answer that question? I think they're a heavily scheme, past scheme.

Okay, I think they're a heavily scheme passing game. That's a great question. Okay, I would say this. I think they're a heavily scheme passing game that manipulates coverage to create positive throws for Josh Allen. And why I say that is because we did a piece, the last two weeks we did pieces on Josh Allen and the bills and how they scheme you,

especially if you're a split safety team, how they will lift the top of the secondary off the map and bring Stefan Diggs across the field. If you play man coverage against them, Ryan Dable will scheme you all day long. We saw it early in the year against them in the Miami game. I think it was week two, week three, something like that, and Josh had one of his best games of the year.

They will scheme you all day versus man cover. They will run crossers. They'll run pick concepts. They will get guys open and they'll give Josh opportunities to make those throws. And on top of that with Josh Allen right now, he is moving really well and he is moving to throw. He is such a different player than last year, in my opinion. Something that goes to Ken Dorsey was a quarterback coach right now, former Miami hurricane quarterback up in Buffalo. But he is very well coached.

And I go back to, was it two weeks ago now, Robert, the Monday night game against San Francisco? That was Josh Allen's best game as a pro. I totally agree. Best game as a pro. Now he made some, like he always does, some throws that only a handful of guys in the league can do. But for me, it was ability to throw from the pocket, read and process and diagnose the field,

but also his ability to move. And when he moved, he moved with his eyes up, and he moved to throw. And when you get that second reaction, but with Josh Allen who continues to develop, that offense can flat out go. And another thing, we don't talk about this. A lot is their run game.

Okay? The one game I thought Bill Belichick got beat a little bit this year was when they played Buffalo. And what did Buffalo do? They counter Belichick's personnel. So when they came out in 10 personnel, Buffalo runs a lot of 10 personnel. That means you have four wide receivers in the field, one running back. They ran the ball out of it. The reason they did that is because Belichick countered with dollar personnel.

I call it dollar. Dollar seven defensive backs. When they did that, they're a middle linebacker. is Devin McCordy. So Dave all saw it and said, okay, you're going to bring all these deep bees in the field. I'm going to run outside zone all day on you. And they did. And they did. You know, I think they, Dave will did a great job the year and night of adjusting because that was a tough matchup. And again, we go back to, you know, we're in the business if we want immediate results all the time. If the quarterback has like a down quarter, down half, we start getting

down with them. You know, that's the Pittsburgh Steelers. That is the best. secondary in the NFL is one of the best blitzing teams in the NFL. They heated up the pocket versus Josh in that first half. They really did. He had people at his feet like crazy. I wasn't throwing a rhythm. So what did you see in the second half? More quick game throws.

Getting the ball on his hands. More play action with more protection in the backfield. Attacking zone coverage. Now those zone windows started to open up a little bit and Dave all schemed them up. They did a great job in that touchdown pass in the deep corner of the end zone. That was covered two. They knew they were getting covered too. I loved that play.

They're playing the tendencies. and you get Josh to, you know, pump the shoulders, really, and get the cornerback just to freeze a little bit. And with that arm talent, Robert, that's all it takes. You're not going to have. We had Beasley underneath. You had Beasley underneath on what it looked like kind of a choice route. And the way that Beasley had all that space to the sideline,

the corner was clearly influenced by it. And then they had Davis coming right behind it. And it's just a little high, low, but with the threat that Beasley is in that amount of space, especially in the red zone where you saw him dominate the week before, it's just a perfect little bit of harmony between everything just working together. I totally agree. It was beautiful.

And it's so funny that you mentioned the crossers and everything else because early in the season, teams were playing a lot of man against them. I'm thinking of that Miami game where they were just lighting them up. And when teams are going to do that, you'll see them use stacks and picks and a lot of just the tools we see against man coverage. But then you go watch the San Francisco game, a team that's not going to play quite as much man and it's almost jarring how spread out the formations are because we're used to so many teams now with all of these condensed formations because of what we've seen from a lot of these play action boot

teams and the bills just really are a change up to that when they go to that 10-11 personnel because they spread you all the way across the field and like you mentioned i think one of the best things they do my favorite throw that josh hit against the niners was that dig to get to davis down on the left side. And they do so much of that where they clear out with number two on that side and they come back behind it. And they have the speed and the personnel to do that. And it's just such a smart way to create space with a quarterback that has that arm.

Again, it's a really smart, really fun convergence of scheme, uh, talent and just an approach that really marries the two together well. Yeah. And that was that I, that's the Kurt Warner throw. Okay. In my rookie year, I was drafted by the Rams playing St. Louis with, you know, the greatest show on turf. That is Kurt Warner to Isaac Bruce. We ran that play all the time.

And you have to be able to drive the ball and put some touch on it when you stuff from Josh. That was his best throw. That might have been his best throw in his career. I mean, it really might have been in terms of understanding how the route concept works, understanding how you're going to lift the top of the secondary like you're talking about with that scene down the middle. And then anticipating the end breaker, knowing that the corner is going to squeeze the end breaker too. The ball ought to be perfect. He had it dropped it over the top of the linebacker into a tiny window.

And you've seen that more from John. Look, I have to admit, I was dead wrong. Okay. I saw Stefan Diggs going there. I said, well, is he going to get the type of production he wants, right? Is he going to get it? Okay. Josh Allen, is he going to take the next step?

I don't know. Can they scheme enough for him? I was dead wrong. And look, Josh had some moments this year would show he's still a young quarterback. We have to understand that. He's still a young quarterback. It's like, well, the conversations about, Tyler right now, who's been struggling a little bit.

Well, you know, this is pro football. He's a young quarterback. He's going to have some up and down moments. But Josh has been much more consistent this year. And if you're looking for a team, in my opinion, and that AFC that can at least challenge Kansas City in January, I think it has to be Buffalo. I totally agree. And I talked to Josh last year for a story. And we talked about a lot of accuracy stuff and him working on his mechanics.

And you can just tell it mattered to him. And he was going to put in the work to get there. And he made the comparison to me. He was talking about it being a golf swing. And about how when he was a young quarterback, it's the same way you start playing golf when you're young. You're trying to hit every ball as hard as you possibly can. And you eventually learn that it's all about being able to do it smoothly. And at first, you're not going to have the distance you want on it.

You're not going to be able to shape shots, but you're going to be able to consistently put the ball where you want to. then the next step beyond that is being able to tweak it in little tiny ways. I think that's what we're seeing now. I also think that his mental development has aided his physical development because he's playing so much faster now and getting through progression so much faster. You can see his head moving and his eyes moving when he's playing. I just think it's allowed him to not rush as many throws and making more throws in rhythm. Again, it's just a convergence of everything that you want to see from him.

Right. It's convergence of having an excellent play car, adding a top level number one wide receiver and Stefan Diggs. And like you said, a quarterback who wants to be coached. Okay, that's something that you don't see on tape. You got to, you know, an inside view of it and talking to Josh. But everything I've heard is that he wants to be coached. And he wants to be coached hard. Okay, that tells you, that's what you want.

That is a profile of a professional athlete. That's someone that understands that development never stops. It doesn't matter if you're 24 or if you're 30 later in the league. You can always improve whether it's the mental aspect, your mechanics, understanding defense, whatever it may be. But you have to be coached hard. You have to be willing to be coached hard and understand what criticism means to you, constructive criticism from a coach because they want you to succeed and you want to get better.

Yeah, it's been fun to watch them this year. It really has. And I'm happy for them because there were so many people throughout the draft process that didn't want him to be a successful pro. And he's proven a lot of people wrong this year. It's one of those things where you hear not only the way he talks about it, you want him to succeed. But when I heard the way other people talked about him,

I were talking to Lee Smith in the Buffalo, in the Bill's locker room last year. He's been a guy who's been around forever. He was drafted in 2011. And the way that he talked about Josh Allen is so telling. When you have those veteran guys at hard-nosed, you know, lunch-pale positions, like a blocking tight end,

be like, that's the guy I want to play with. I think that says a lot. And again, when you have that mindset and that attitude and now the refinement has come along with it, I think that we're seeing those results. I agree. All right. Let's get to our next one here. You mentioned McVeigh and Sean Payton.

I don't want to dig into them because we talk about them all the time. They were kind of your throw-in names. This is a Sean McVe appreciation hour very often. It was good last week. So he's been pretty good a lot. The guy that you threw in there that I wanted to talk about, because I don't think people appreciate him enough in this aspect is John Gruden. And as a play designer and a play caller, I think he's up near the top of the pack in the same way that you do.

It almost reminds me when I watch them of a diet version of the chiefs where you have Waller dictating coverages in the same way that Kelsey can. You have that speed element. You have these modern aspects, whether it's motion or different formations, grafted onto traditional West Coast concepts. So what did you expect from Gruden this time around as a play caller? Did you expect him to be this good based on what you'd seen from him in the past? I did because we played Tampa a lot when I was a player. Yeah. We played him in the playoffs, play them to the regular.

It seemed like we played them every year. And I don't know how that happens because we're in different divisions, but we did. So I remember going back and look, I have all my notebooks. Okay, I never throw that stuff away. So have all my notebooks. Good on you. 0304, 05. when we really played Tampa all the time.

I went back and looked at his tendencies. You know, and a lot of the stuff, one thing about John Gruden, there's always going to be the classics. You mentioned the West Coast routes. There's always going to be classic power to it. He wants to run the football.

He wants to run the football down your throat. Let's be honest. That's what Gruden is at his core. West Coast routes run power football. But things have changed a little bit. Now, back then it was Joey Galloway. Okay, he's always had a speed player. And that's what you added this year,

like you mentioned. The drafts at Henry Ruggs, Nelson Aguilar has been, has been a I thought. It's a revelation. Yeah, completely different player. It's amazing.

Completely different player that he was in Philadelphia. He looks faster. He looks more fluid running as the routes. And he's got more explosive play juice in this offense. And sometimes that happens. When guys go to different locations, you know, you get a fresh start. That can't happen. But how-

But that's also a scheme that allows him to play fast, right? When you put guys in a spot where you can distill it for them, that's how guys play fast and play differently. I don't think it's an accident whatsoever that they have gotten underutilized assets or distressed assets consistently on the offensive side of the ball and had them playing some of the best football of their careers. Yeah. And if you look at what Gruden has right now, we did a play on matchup last week. Okay. So we were anticipating, you know, Raiders versus Colts.

We're going to see cover two, right? So a lot of cover two. And so we looked at this play and they ran against Tampa Bay. And it's one of the best scheme covered two beaters I've seen all seats. reason because it uses play action out of 21 traditional personnel. You have Henry Ruggs to lift the top of the secondary and get the Mike Linebacker out of there, who's also Devin White, who can turn and run. And the ball is out so quick, Aglar almost clips the hip of the Mike Lineback.

I mean, that's how fast the ball comes out. It was such a rhythm, schemed throw for Derek Carr that worked in the middle field, that attacked an open void that John Gruden created. Okay, I think he's one of the most underrated scheme coaches. in the NFL. McCauley utilizes all his personnel. He will get in heavy personnel and stress you as a defense. He'll do it out of 13, which is three tight ends. He'll do it out of 12, which is two tight in. He'll do it out of 21 and spread the formation and get Alec Ingle, the fullback out there. He'll do a lot of different things. Now, Alec Ingle does not have the exact traits of Kyle Euse check,

but can it be utilized the same way? I think eventually they will get to that with that. He's got juice for a fullback. He's got a little giddy up that a lot of guys at that spot don't necessarily have. Like, he gives you more than Pat DeMarco would have five years ago. No, I agree. I agree. But he's also a traditional guy. If you put a visor on him in a neck roll, he could have played in the 1990s,

and he did a Big Ten with me, right? Okay. Because the fullback in John Gruden's office still has to be a rogue rig. I mean, you still got to run ISO and dig out linebackers the second level all day long. But you mentioned Waller. What he's done with Waller? I mean, he schemes Waller all the time, whether it's on post wheel, whether it's the backside of three-by-one, throwing fade balls, getting ISO routes.

Henry Ruggs has not been as productive, I think, as people expected this year, but Henry Ruggs had an injury. He's a rookie wide receiver's taking more time to develop, but he's a piece of that offense that John Gruden wanted for a reason. One, because he can be more vertical. And that goes to Derek Carr. Derek Carr this year, and I know they, look, I think the Raiders are close. Okay, I think they're close.

there's things on defense, the pieces they need, especially difference makers up front. But they're close because of their offense and what they can do. And I thought Derek Carr this year within that scheme, and you know what John Gruden, you talk to any of his former quarterbacks, he coaches you extremely hard at that position. I thought he's been much more confident and much more aggressive

as a deep ball vertical thrower, which we haven't seen consistently from Derek Carr. Robert, you know this. You go back to last year, look at the numbers with Derek Carr. He's up there in QBR, he's up there in completion percentage. But, you know, he's throwing slants. and hitches, right? He's throwing speedouts. He's not taking those shots down the field.

I think that's what Gruden wanted to see more of him this year was taking those shots down the field. He went out and got the personnel for it. I think Carr has been much better. But in terms of the overall scheme, John Grun has to scheme up anyone. He can scheme up anyone. I saw it firsthand when I was a player. He schemed us to death when he was in Tampa. Okay, so he scheme Kishon Johnson on me. That wasn't good for me, you know? So things happen, right? But I love Gruden in that he can play different games within the game. He can line up in 21 and run the football and use play action off it. He can spread his formation regardless of what the personnel is on the field and get

matchups and create space. And that's one thing with Gruden is he creates space. And when he creates that space, he gives their car high percentage throws. And he also creates space down the field for him to take those vertical shots. And I think obviously the biggest question for them is who's going to be coordinating their defense. They fired Paul Gunther last week. They clearly need some changes on that side of the ball, which brings us to your favorite defensive play callers of the year so far. And my favorite part about this is when you sent me your list, you know, I expected to see guys like Brandon's

Daley who's on there and guys that have been hot names this year. But at the top of your list, like a true traditionalist that you are, was Bill Belichick. And I would, I just want to hear you say why you think he still is the guy, because that's how you communicated it to me. And I completely understand. He's still the guy because the game plan changes every week. And he's skiing specifically to stop your best players. And that's the best way to say it, to stop your best player. You know, traditional Bill Belichick, when they play, you know, a team with a high level wide receiver. We did a lot of pieces last year of matchup, especially with the Kansas City matches. What are they going to do? Well,

they're going to double, double hill. You know, play what's called cover one double. One double 10. One double 10. Yep. And it's also one double 10 for Hopkins, too. So it's works in two ways. how they attacked Darren Waller this year when they played the Raiders. Perfect example. They specifically designed to take Darren Waller out of that game. If you look at what they did, they did a couple things. One, they have so much versatility in their secondary.

That has always been with Belichick. So in that matchup versus Darren Waller, it was Gilmore, it was both McCordies, it was Williams, it was Kyle Dugger. I threw a bunch of different matchup set. So what does that is a receiver, tight end? You have to play different traits every time to come to football. You get someone who's got the footwork, someone who's got the fluid hips to change direction.

They're going to get someone that's going to jam you up with the line of scrimmage and run with you. And also what he did, he'll take his outside linebackers and walk him out and jam your tight end. So your tight end is getting disrupted coming off to football. He does everything to take away your best player. I thought one of his best game plans this year was against Kyle Murray. What did he do against Kyle of Murray? He had those inside guys play like two gap, just rush out the field.

He had his edge guys almost run and stop. So they didn't get deeper than the quarterback. And Robert, and then they started jumping up and down, right? Trying to get in the flowing light. It really was amazing to watch. They always are big on controlled rushes, controlling the pocket. It's a coaching point for them consistently. But there were those little two, like a couple of wrinkles during that game.

You're like, man, they just had to harp on this stuff all week. You could just see it. What they did is they forced Collar to play from the pocket. Okay, they didn't want him to get outside and crate with his legs, obviously. They didn't want him to get outside and crate, you know, in terms of making second reaction throws. All solve that game. What do they do? They have those wide edge rushers and they started running those twist stunts inside with Butler and Winnevich. Okay, so now Kyle, Kyle, you can't get outside and he can't step out by you did. So now the ball has to come

out. So what do you do behind that? They played some man like they always do. You played a lot of cover three, but disciplined cover three. You drop a safety down as a robber. You put bodies in the middle of the field. And now you're making Kyler throw off in the pocket and throw into more contested windows. And look, Robert, this isn't recreating football. And that's the great thing about Belich. He's not putting schemes out there that no one's ever run. He drafts for his scheme in terms of the secondary. He drafts for a scheme in terms of the edge rushers. Look at Uche and Winnevich this year. Those are prototype New England Patriots outside linebackers because they can do a lot of things. They can drop into coverage. They can hit. They can

run twist on its side. They can try to win one-on-ones off the edge. Look, we did versus Lamar Jackson. I thought this was great. Versus Lamar Jackson. He had Adrian Phillips and Kyle Dougger, two safeties with running hit traits or physical on the edge that can play in space. He basically played a three safety nickel, a lot of that game and had those safeties walk down almost as overhang edge defenders. He said, we're not going to let Lamar run outside. We're just not. We're not going to let him get to the edge.

Now, obviously, Lamar is always going to make some play. It's Lamar Jackson. It's like, it was a rough game, though. I mean, that was the game where it was like, is this it for Baltimore? I mean, I think that was a lot of the narrative coming out of that night. And I think a lot of that is Bill Belich. Yeah, he was excellent. that game. There's so many

ways you can look at how, look at what he did at Justin Herbert. This is excellent. We're going to show us on matchup of this week. He had Justin Herbert, you know, seeing things to work there. But that's what you do to a young kid at the position, right? I would do the same thing. There's a couple plays in there where they're showing overload pressure.

And Herbert's getting ready to throw hot immediately. You can see it. It's catch and throw, catch and throw. Well, no one's coming. You know, no one's coming. They're dropping out. And then now you're trying to find Keenan. on you're on one target and you're making them throw into contestive windows. How they communicate in the secondary, that's coaching. Look, they've had some times this year when they didn't play their best football in the secondary.

I understand that. But going back to last year and at times this year, the way they communicate in the secondary is very important from my perspective because they are ready to pass off routes. They know how to play bunch sets. They know how to cut crossers. They're very well coached. And again, they're not recreating the game of football. They're just taking the game of football.

and making it so matchup specific to their opponent. And that's what makes Belichick the best because he looks at your roster. It says, I'm going to take away one, two, and three. Those guys aren't going to impact the game anymore. I'm taking them out of the game. You've got to beat me another way. And that was obviously they had some issues early in the season.

I think at one point they were dead last in the NFL in defensive DVOA. Over the last month, 10th in EPA play on defense. And when you consider how young and inexperienced and green they are in the front seven, and again, even if it's a new piece in the defensive secondary, like Kyle Dugger, where it's a guy who hasn't played very often, the specificity of the coaching points and the communication details within that defense, even if it's just one new piece, even if it's a new linebacker, without Dante Hightower in there to be passing off stuff in the cover one things they do.

One or two new little things without an off season, it's really difficult to master that defense. So speaking of that, a guy that came in without an off season and has just been gangbusters since the start. Brandon Staley with the Rams, I've done a lot of watching that defense over the last couple weeks and just digging into some of the stuff specifically that they do. What has really jumped out to you about the overall approach he's taken with that unit?

Well, the first thing is playstyle. I mentioned this to you when we were talking the other day. Playstyle is important to me. What I mean by that, Robert, is there a sense of urgency with your defense at all three levels? Okay, and you can see that on tape. And more importantly, opposing offenses, you can see it on tape 2. But how do you play? Are you fast in the football?

Are you assignment sound? As alignment, assignment perfect almost every time. Yes, you see that with Staley. Do defenders in the secondary drive top-down the ball all the time? Do they take proper angles to cut off the ball at the second level and they have a cutoff in a force player versus one game? See that quite a bit from that defense. It's the way they play to me that it just jumps out when you watch.

Watch it. They're obviously well, coach. They play with a ton of juice. And now you mix in the scheme. Okay, they're very heavy split safety defense. Doesn't mean they won't play single high man. They will. Single high cover three, they'll play some three robber and drop them down.

They're more quarters based. They'll play some two and they'll play cover six. Now cover six is four plus two. So it's quarter, quarter half. So to one side of the field you're playing cover two, the other side of you're playing quarters. They're excellent in that too. I love the safety.

I love the safety. I love the safety with Johnson. Smart, smart players. Smart players who tackle. And that's your thing. They play downhill. Yeah. If you're going to play in that defense and you don't have safetys who intimidate with your pads and tackle, you can't do it.

And they got to play fast mentally, too, because they're playing so far back. They can't be a part of the run game unless they're able to quickly identify stuff. Both of those guys can. I call it a flat foot read. So you'll see them a lot of times. Their feet are almost like in cement at the snap. And then when it's run, they step downhill. There's no negative steps there.

There's no hesitation. Like you said, you run downhill, you fill the alley, and you tackle. You drive through the thighboard. get the guy on the ground. What they do up front, they do a lot of different things. Look at Leonard Floyd. And, you know, this might be hard for you because you love theirs. But look how Leonard Floyd is playing in this defense.

Don't tell me that Leonard Floyd doesn't have more juice than Chicago. He does. You can see it on the tape. They will ski matchups from Leonard Floyd. They'll use overload pressure. They'll get those five-man fronts the pressure. And then also, they're the best football player of the world in Aaron Dom. Okay.

But with Donald- They deploy those guys in the right way. That's why it's cool. They do. They will scheme up front. They are excellent at scheming pressure. With guys like Gaines and Donald inside, they will use twist stunts. They'll get the matchups they want for Aaron Donald.

That's very important. What you see with a lot of teams now, this is all across the league. I've noticed this all season. How important is the scheme pass-fresh matchups with your front floor? Whether tilted fronts, overload fronts, try to get one-on-one. So you don't have a center that can help on Aaron Donald. Okay, because now he's occupied. Now the defensive end is occupying the tackle.

There gives you one-on-one. That's what you do. You. Okay, it's smart coaching. It's not super complex. That's what they do. Look how Jalen Ramsey. Now, this is the question I had, Robert, Jalen Ramsey, when they hired Staley, who has coached under Vic Fangio, and obviously you know Vic's scheme very well being in Chicago against heavy split safety. Now you have this guy, Jalen Ramsey, who, in my opinion, is the most complete corner of the NFL now after playing in this defense. He's physical in the run game. He will set the edge of the run game. We know he has elite man coverage traits because of his length, his short area closing speed, and the flexibility he has in his hips to change directions. Look how they use it. Yeah, he'll play quarter, so he'll play cover two, you know, with that cover six, where he's the flat defender. But they will lock him in cover.

You know how much flexibility that gives you as a defense. Now you can play quarters lock, what I call. It changes the math. Yeah. Now you take that guy in your racing. Okay, and he could, and also where you're seeing with Jayland, they're moving him inside. Okay, you can match, you can match a vertical in that spot. You can also lock him inside.

I go back to the matcher because D.K. Mek-Kat. And I understand people say, well, Russ didn't look his way a lot of times. I understand that. He didn't take the wrist. For that. Yeah. He didn't take the wrist there. But that's the great thing about Jalen Ramsey, is he can match inside versus a Terry

McLaren, who's got really good change of direction ability. He can match outside versus D.K. Metcad, who really not as flexible, okay, not as loose in the hips, but very close in terms of height, weight, and speed and measurable as a Julio Jones. That's what DKMACF is. So you have to be able to match that outside. You have to be physical, and you have to match DK in terms of the competitive nature. Because DK will compete all game.

All game he competes. Same thing with Jaylen. Jalen competes so well. Now look at the other guys. Look at Darius Williams in the secondary. Darius Williams has some of the best footwork I've seen this year. And some of the best ball skills I've seen this year. They have guys.

That's the thing. They have guys in that secondary. And they have a front that will get home with the quarterback. And they're extremely well coached. And they trust, this is the number one thing to me. They don't change much. They don't make decisions if they have a game where things don't go exactly right. Well, let's change everything.

They trust their scheme. They teach their scheme very well. They trust their scheme very well. And that is what you see still in Denver with Vic Fangio on that defense. It's really a study in the allocation of resources. Because when you play as much middle of the field open as they do, which is more than 80% of plays, the highest rate in the league. and they play because of that,

they're playing with a light box on 85% of their plays. So they're daring teams to run the ball. And the way that they play with some of their front and the way that the safeties contribute to the run game, they're still one of the best run defenses in the NFL. Being able to do both of those things at the same time is truly remarkable. And I also think that with Donald and Ramsey,

it's about resource allocation. Like you said, if you can just lock Ramsey on a guy, like D.K. McCath, it changes the way the rest of your guys can play. And up front, they do it two different ways. They'll either try to bring five to scheme up one-on-ones for Donald, or they'll use Donald as a decoy on some of these stunts to create openings for other guys. And you never know when it's coming.

So they have this unpredictability to them, even if they're lining up in two deep coverages a lot, they're playing a lot of cover three, and they're spinning at the interception that Tom Brady threw at the end of that game is a perfect example. They're doing so many things to be unpredictable while being. able to be comfortable because they're lining up the same way in the back end all the time. It is truly a fascinating exercise in defensive football. It's unlike a lot of stuff that we've seen in the league over the past 10 years or so. They bring up a great point. I use the term late movement in disguise.

Like you just said, when you spin the safeties, you do that a lot. And you have to do that in today's league. I think you have to do that. You have to have some late movement in disguise, whether you're going against Tom Brady or whether you're going against a young quarterback. you have to make quarterbacks work now post-snap. I mean, the rules are so slanted for offensive football that you have to try to gain an advantage somewhere.

And I think that's one of the key areas of the game where you can gain an advantage is post-snap from a defense perspective. You can correct me if I'm wrong. They also, because of the way they play with those two deep safeties, a lot of this jet motion is designed to make you spin before the snap and show your hand. But because of the way they play, they don't have to do a lot of that. So they're not quite as reactionary before the snap

as some defenses have to be just by structure, correct? 100%. You're playing split safety quarters at any level. You can play right and left. You play on the right side, I'll play the left side. Okay, I'll switch up at half time because jet motion comes. If you're playing quarters, what are you going to do with your curl there? He's going to bump out.

You know, you're going to bump out. You'll play football. And that's one of the best things they do. You use the term, I like that term. You don't have to be reactionary because now you just read your keys and play fast. Okay, keep doing all that stuff. Keep running jets, keep doing the shifts, and motions.

We don't care. We're going to play split safety quarters. And then we're going to make you work post-nap. Okay, we're going to show split safety quarters and we're spinning the cover three. We're going to spend the three robber. We're going to cut the crosser. And that's the thing I was getting to is because of all that movement,

because of the offensive advantages. Now you have to find a way to steal something from offenses. I think it's the ability to make quarterbacks process and work harder post-snap. So one last guy here before we get out of here is Steve Spacknowo from Kansas. Somebody else I was a little bit surprised by just because it's not someone we talk about a lot. We're so offense-centric the way we talk about the chiefs that I think that Spagnola can be a little overlooked.

And I went back and I watched a couple of their games today. And the word I would use just to describe them is just aggression. Aggression, aggression, aggression. There was a play in the Miami game. It was actually kind of hilarious. One of their corners before the play was literally standing next to the wide receiver on the offensive side of the line of scrimmage and had to, like, move back because of how much he was in his pocket. And that's the way they play.

They are just up in people's faces. So when you watch them, what jumps out to you? What do you think is special about some of the things and some of the designs that he's using for his guys? Well, the first thing you have to talk about with Spags is that that's the defense coordinator job you want. Because you're kind of playing with house money, right? That's exactly right. Okay, because, well, Mahomes are going to get your four touchdowns the game. So you can be more aggressive.

And I think that's one of the reasons. reasons they went out and hired SPACs. Because at the top of his resume, it probably just says pressure, right? Okay, he's a very pressure heavy coach. They bring pressure a lot of ways. They bring his own pressure. They bring five-man pressure. They bring six, and they'll bring it all out.

They leave the NFL, I think, I'm pretty sure. You can cover zero snaps this year. Cover zero means we are sending as many as we can. We're going to cover in man coverage. We have no safety help in the middle of field. We are coming after you. And you get that a lot from SPACs. And nothing they do that I love is how they're like.

they use Tyron Matthew. Tyron Matthew has, I still believe he has the best versatility of any defensive back in the NFL for a couple of reasons. He looks so comfortable doing everything. It's remarkable. Yeah, and it's a great point, Rob. You can't coach that.

You can't take a young player at any level and say, I want you to play like Tyron Matthew. Just look at you say, coach, what are you talking about? Tyrone Matthew is natural traits. I call him uncoachable traits in terms of his high level football intelligence. his natural instincts and his ball skills and his playmaking traits. You're born with those.

I don't care how many passes you catch on a judgment scene. You are born with those playmaking traits as a defensive back because you have a natural feel to get close to the football. And those plays don't happen by accident with Tyrone. Getting back to what he provides with his defense, he can pressure. We always know that. He can cover. And the thing about Tyron Matthew that separates him from a lot of safeties,

Tyrone Matthew can cover in the slot. That's a very, very hard thing to do. You have to have a great feel for that. You have to play what I call two-way guilt because you don't have the boundary to protect you. You're in a lot of space by yourself. You can rotate to the post. You can play the deep path. And the thing I like the best about him in this defense is he is that robber.

And how Spags utilizes them as that robber saying you will see them. They use a lot of dime. When they have dime, they'll bring Sorenson in and you have Thornhill in and their other two safeties. And they will show all out pressure. They will get to cover two robbers. And how they get to cover two robbers, they spend the safeties late, like we're talking about late movement in disguise. And now you have Tyron Matthew and his line in the weeds.

You saw it at the end of the game versus the Broncos, the Sunday night game. That was covered two robbers. And Drew Locke, you know, that's fourth down. I understand Drew Locks are trying to make a play. They're trying to throw the route you were talking about. The bill's route. I call it dagger when you have to clear out the seam in the end breaker to Judy. He didn't see, he didn't see Tyron Matthew.

Because Tyron Matthew understands when to bait the quarterback, how to bait the quarterback, fall into that throwing a win. But really with Spags, it goes back to what you're talking about. One, it's play style. It's ultra-aggressive. It's a lot of zone and man and zero pressure and how they utilize their personnel, especially in the secondary when they spin late.

A lot of late movement in disguise. You'll watch games sometimes. You turn the tape in the post-safety. He's like five yards off the ball. It's so hard to see what they're playing. And I don't know coverage is that well. It's definitely not a strength of mine. But you watch them play.

I could throw a fucking dart. And it wouldn't matter. I have no idea what they're playing at any point in time. It's nuts what it looks like post-snap. They do a great job. And look, they have pass rushes. You have a guy like Frank Clark, they can rush the passers. So that gives you opportunities when you don't want to be aggressive,

when you can play more cover two. They can play in quarters. One of their best blitzes, and this just started to catch on around the NFL, I think. I call it quarters match coverage, Robert. Okay, so it looks like quarters. You only have four deep. You only have two underneath, though.

You're losing, you know, your hook player. Basically have two curl defenders underneath. And you are almost like a, okay, think about basketball. And we've all played basketball when you play, what's you call matchup zone, right? The guy's in your area, he's your guy, right? Same thing with this, that you were basically matching to vertical releases on all, you know, four across, and you're bringing pressure with it.

They do a great job of getting to that and disguising that. I think it really messes with the quarterbacks post-knap, as they're expecting all this pressure. And pressure does come. It's scheme pressure with twist notes, but you are still dropping six into coverage. And they do a great job of matching over the top, having those curled defenders underneath and matching over the top.

That continued to show up with that defense. I'm seeing it more around the NFL because the traditional zone blitz, Robert, is 3-D-3-100. That's traditional zone blitz forever. Going back to when I played for Lovie Smith in St. Louis, that was 3-D-3-300, send-5. Now you're seeing teams get to a different ways in different zone pressure. In Kansas City, is one of those teams that will play that quarter

match in the secondary, and I love it because it allows their safeties to be aggressive. It allows their corners to be aggressive. You're still bringing five so you can heat up the quarterback a little bit. And then you're dropping guys out underneath as those curl or seam defenders, and you're trying to steal one underneath. It's very well scheme. Again, it goes back to you're playing with Patrick Mahomes and Andy Reid. I'm sure Andy looks at Spags during the game and says, go heat them up.

Give me one. Yeah. It's one of those things that I, it's a blind spot in the way I think and talk about the game is that it's so easy to see this stuff in a vacuum where a defense is what happens on a spreadsheet and these are the results and offense has its own set of results. In actuality, these things have to be complementary and when people are building teams, that's how they think. And I don't think like that often enough. And when you watch the Chiefs defense, it is a complementary structure to what their offense is. And I think that's the cool thing when you see it all

kind of come together. Yeah, I would also say that about. offensive football, Robert. You know, balance is a very relative term, right? After games, when a team is past, having you said they need more balance. When they run, heavy, you need, every game is different. And those are complementary pieces of each other, too,

is a run and pass game. That's the same way with defensive football, working off your offense and also working off your kicking game as well, too, which is a huge part that, you know, I'm guilty of it too. We don't talk about it enough. Awesome. Matt, thank you very, very much. again, you have taught me more about football than most people,

and I'm glad that people got to hear this conversation. So thank you very much for the time, and I'm sure you and I will be catching up here very soon. All right, man. Have a great time down in Florida. Thank you very much. I wish I was there. I'll talk to you. All right, thank you, Robert.

It is time now for our weekly team visit. I'm very excited about this one. This is the team we talk about a lot in the show, but we have not had either of the writers on, both of whom I have known for a while. Stephen was on the show to preview the AFC South. Zach Kiefer has been a buddy of mine for a long time. Guys, thank you so much for joining me.

I sincerely appreciate the time. Thanks for having us. This is going to be fun. Yeah, looking forward to it. This is a team that, you know, Steve and I talked about it before the season. And I had high hopes of them. I thought they could win the AFC South.

I just thought they had a lot of talent top to bottom. But they're a slightly different version of the team I expected them to be. Steven, how does this team sit at 9 and 4 now looking at they're absolutely going to make the playoffs? How do they compare to the expectations you had for them? coming into the year. Good question. I think in a couple ways, I think their defense,

even though there have been some shakier moments in recent weeks where their first halves have gotten kind of funky. Like, I don't know, they've gotten really unstable in the first half. But they've played like amazing lockdown defense in the second halves of games. But what I was going to say is I think their defense has played a bigger role in this than I ever thought.

because, you know, you sign Philip Rivers, you have seemingly all this offensive talent. And then, of course, in the first two weeks, you lose Marlon Mack and Paris Campbell, two of the guys who were the big reasons for those offensive hopes. And then the offense kind of had to reinvent itself in addition to Philip Rivers having to figure things out and learn these teammates on the fly without a preseason and, you know, sort of a joke of a training camp. And I didn't think the offense would take as long as it did. to get on track. It is now on track. But in the meantime, their defense kind of saved them, honestly. And I didn't think that was going to necessarily be how this thing played out,

especially for a Colts team. I mean, when have you ever associated the Colts with, you know, aggressive lockdown defense, right? I mean, that's not their style. The defense is always along for the ride. And this has been a very different kind of team. Even though they're playing good offense now, I think it's the defense that allowed the offense. the time to get caught up. I feel the same way. Zach, is that kind of how your feelings aligned? Do you think that the defense is just better

than you expected it to be before the season started? The unit that really surprises me every week is the secondary. Because I'll be honest. And Stephen, we talked about this a lot. I had huge concerns. They were terrible, terrible in December last year. They gave up 500 James. Winston, Drew Breeze went 29 for 30 against them.

And they got carved up by Gardner, Minshu, in week 17. And everyone kind of forgot about that. but they were a huge disappointment late in the year, and Chris Ballard was ticked off about it. He cut Pierre Desir. They brought in Xavier Rose on a Provet deal. That's the unit that stepped up a lot. For me, you expected Buckner to be what he is,

and he's really dang good. Darius Leonard has continued to ascend, but it's the secondary. It's Xavier Rhodes. It's Rakasin who's been better of late. And then Kenny Moore, who just continues to make unbelievable plays week after week. I mean, that's the unit that really needed to bring it.

And I think that's how this defense, went from good to elite. I had the same feeling because you're looking at it before the season, and it was a troubling unit at the end of last year, and it's not like they made these moves where you thought, oh, it's guaranteed they'll be better. You have a guy in Julian Blackman was a third round pick who's been fantastic. You didn't expect that to necessarily happen.

Xavier Rhodes was borderline unplayable for the Vikings at points last season. And he's come in and just looked like an entirely different player. So, Stephen, I think that probably a lot of people figured on the coach, coaching staff side of this, that Frank Reich would carry this team. He got one of his guys in there in rivers. The offense would be pretty good. Let's see with the defense. And I think you could probably make an argument that Matt Iberfluse has done a more impressive job with his side of the ball this season than Frank Reich has. I mean, I think Matt Iber flus is a fantastic coach, honestly. I mean, he has, this personnel is better than people probably give him credit for.

People give the coach credit for it just nationally. But that being said, they had the put it all together. And I think a couple of things, Zach hit on a couple of things already. Number one, for example, getting Julian Blackman to play at the level that he has, granted the kid is supremely talented, but getting him to play at the level that he has so quickly. Okay, kid didn't practice until week one. Did not practice. Forget about, on the team. Like, he didn't practice until week one. You have that. Then you have, as you mentioned, Xavier Rhodes and the foresight there by having a couple former Vikings coaches on their staff and knowing the player and knowing what they could do with him within their scheme, that foresight and that

projection being on the money. And then, you know, getting guys like Kenny Moore to continue to build on what he has already done and just become more of a weapon for the defense. I think, yes, they have taken some really good pieces and turned it as X'd I think into an elite unit right now. They are among the best defenses in the NFL. There's no question about it. And they play, we were talking about this, in fact, today with offensive coordinator, Nick Siriani, strangely, just talking about practicing against their defense and just how aggressively they play.

They're always swiping at the ball. They play to the whistle. They play at a tempo that almost no one else does. And they practice that way. And that actually has positive benefits for their offense, too. So, yeah, it's just a really fun group. and they're making all kinds of splash plays right now too, which is really fun to watch. It's one of those things that I think that if you talk to people about the characteristics of this Colts defense schematically,

it would be they're a passive defense in a lot of ways. They play a lot of zone. It's not as in your face as some of these other great defenses we see in the NFL right now, whether that's Pittsburgh or Baltimore or Tampa Bay. But they mix it up just enough. There are those third down pressure looks where they're doing some fun stuff with Darius Leonard. They're going to jump a little bit of man on you when you don't necessarily expect it. I think that's why it's really fun to watch because you had these underlying principles that they've clearly been coached up well to do that they've mastered.

It allows them to play fast. But every once in a while in a high leverage moment, there's going to be a curveball you're not expecting. And they jump on you with those. I think it's a really nice mix. Zach, I think one of the other aspects of this team that was definitely a question mark coming into this season is what Philip Rivers would look like in this offense. Because I am the biggest Philip Rivers booster that has ever existed that has never rooted for the Chargers. I have always thought he was a top shelf quarterback, but over the last couple years,

there were absolutely question marks. There were a ton of bad interceptions last year. He's getting older. I was 38 years old when he came in here. And even if you wanted to look at it optimistically, which I did, he knows, right, the offensive line is the best he's probably ever played with. He's going to be in a position to succeed even if you have concerns. I still think what he's looked like over the past month is better than I could have ever expected.

Internally, what sort of expectations did that? have for him. Did they think they could be a top 10 passing offense, which they're trending toward being right now, even with a banged up group of weapons? Can I be honest? I didn't get the Philip Rivers thing for so long. Yeah, I understand. I see a lot of charges games. Thank God for you. I'm glad you were protecting yourself in ways that I wasn't over the last couple years. It's a smart life choice from you. I didn't get it. I know the numbers are there and I know he's won a lot of big games and he hasn't gotten to the big game, but I knew he was tough, but I didn't get it. And when I reached out to Frank after they signed Rivers in March, I got a bunch of exclamation points back.

This guy was pumped, and I just didn't quite get it. I went back and watched the tape from 19. Still didn't get it. A lot of bad throws. I get they were trailing those games, and he's trying to make a play late. But he threw 20 picks last year, and he didn't look good doing it. And I talked to a lot of people that were out in L.A. and San Diego, and they said, look, this guy just needs a line and he can do it. And then I did this big story on him where I talked to all his, all his former teammates and coaches.

And they're like, look, there were so many guys that hated him before they played with him. Then they got here and they were his favorite teammate ever. So I'm like, all right, I can kind of see the intangible thing. Now I'm seeing it on the field. And I was skeptical because if you watched him through five weeks, he was bad in parts. I mean, straight up bad. And Frank wouldn't admit it, but we all saw what we were watching. Look, I mean, he was four touchdowns and five interceptions and a passer rating of 89.

five weeks in. That was bad football. And what's changed and what's really impressed me of late. And Frank talked about this yesterday is, look, the guy throw was with incredible anticipation. Yep. Very, very accurate down the field. He can make the throws outside the numbers that you kind of were worried about for a 38, 39-year-old guy. He's as cerebral to me as what Manning and Brady are.

I mean, he really has impressed me in that element of the game. And if you watch the Colts tape closely, you won't see this in the box score, but the cerebral element has been really impressive. I mean, Frank was saying yesterday, there are times the coaching staff is watching tape, and they're like, how did he know this was going to happen? The coaching staff doesn't see all the stuff that Rivers sees. I have made a 180. I mean, he was struggling in the beginning of the season. I see it. Now I get Philip Rivers. It took a little while, but he is a special freaking player. There are so many throws. I think there are two aspects of his game. Now as I go into my Philip Rivers Appreciation Hour, which is a regular segment on this show,

There are two aspects to his game that I think stand out compared to other quarterbacks. The anticipation part is absolutely one of them. I can't think of a quarterback currently playing. Brady is maybe there, but Manning was like this, where he's as confident putting the ball into space because he understands the contours of the coverage. I'm thinking the one, he threw a deep corner to TyWi against the Raiders last week. Yep. T.Y wasn't open yet. Against cover three.

He just let it go because he understood the space and where it was going to be. He does that constantly. The other aspect to his game that I think is truly special is his ability to lead guys into those spaces with trajectory and balls. The way he puts crossing routes in front of people, that bullet he threw to TY because he knew it was man coverage. Throwing guys open in a way. Exactly, exactly.

By the way he layers certain throws. It is a guy who is playing quarterback with 80% mind and 20% body. That's exactly what he is right now. And it's really special to watch when it's all working. The crazy part is he's got this toe injury. and I've been told it's pretty bad. And it hasn't changed the way he's played at all. He was a statue before.

He's a statue now. It hasn't hurt his productivity at all because, like you said, it's 80% up here. Stephen, this is a pro-Colts podcast, I think, in a lot of ways. I think the way that the roster has been constructed. I'm talking about my end here. The way the roster has been constructed, the fact that they brought in Rivers. I think Frank Reich is a really good coach. I went back in and I watched the Raiders game today and just,

all the different ways they create space for receivers. A lot of crossing routes and mesh stuff like we've talked about in the show before. It's just well designed. It's just football played the right way. And that's why I enjoy watching them on both sides of the ball. And they're nine and four and they're going to make the playoffs. And it's still hard to get excited about what their ceiling might be. Because I don't know if it's that high.

So, Stephen, if you're sitting here looking at this team that's going to be in the postseason, that's played better in a lot of ways than other people could have anticipated, what do you think the realistic goals are for them? they had toward the end of the year. How far can they get as currently constructed? So that's a great question. I think it's the question. And it's a question that I've been wondering among myself. And Zach and I have been talking about among ourselves. I think I see them right now as a team that you probably don't want to play in January, but not necessarily as a team that, oh my God, you've got to play the Colts. You know,

there's a difference. Meaning they're a team to sneak up on you in that way. Yeah, exactly. I didn't know if that necessarily made sense, but I see them as a team that they can win any game, but I don't know that they're a team you pick to win any game, right? So I think there's a difference. But because they are so well constructed and because, as you said, they give themselves a chance offensively to succeed just about against any coverage with the way things are called and the way plays are designed, they're going to have a chance. You know, I think just about against anybody and because of those things and then they play defense right so so because of all those things they got a chance to win any game and i mean any game i really believe that now whether you can put a string together in the postseason is a different matter you've got a you got to start clicking week after week you know if you're going to make a run and that's hard but i grant you that but i do think they're a capable team and i nothing would surprise me like literally nothing would surprise me. I really think that they're also a team that that kind of has this sort of belief

about itself, you know, and it's a combination of some veterans who are great leaders, but also some young guys like Darius Leonard, for example, there's no business being as confident as he is, although he's really, really good, but just, you know, he's just so overtly confident and crazy and just over the top. And that's infectious, you know, I think that stuff matters. you know, when you get to a situation where people don't think you can win, you know, and then you go out and you win, I think that stuff matters. And I think they just, they just kind of have a, there's a little bit of me against the world about them, but also they're really good.

And you throw all this into a pot. And sometimes you come out with a big victory. I think all of that makes sense. And the defense. I'm glad you do because I didn't know where I was going on with somebody. You're good. You're good. I think that the defense is good enough to play with anybody.

I think we've seen that early in the season. There are probably a lot of questions about how real is this because defenses can be a mirage over the first half of the year, especially when you play that kind of, again, not passive, but fairly simple style of defense where it's really based on being in the right places all the time, having a great pass rush, all of that stuff. You're not dictating as much as other great defenses are.

And I think there are- Robert, in addition to that, the schedule they played early. Yes. They didn't face anybody. And so there were reasons for that. doubt. I had those doubts. And now I think we've kind of come out on the other side of that. You've seen them do it consistently. I think this is what they are defensively. I have questions now rooted in the schedule and other things about how good the offense is. Because if you look at the

raw numbers, Zach, Rivers is fourth in the NFL at EPA per play among quarterbacks. I mean, they look like a top five offense. You look at the raw numbers. I think the raw V-OA on football outsiders is eighth in passing. But then you look at the schedule. They have played by far the worst schedule of defenses in the NFL. And I think that's really contributed to a lot of the success that you've seen. The same goes for the running game last week. You saw Jonathan Taylor get some juice, but how good is it going to be against teams that aren't the Raiders? So do you think that's kind of the biggest lingering question about their offense as they head to the postseason? Now they're going to have to play teams that aren't Vegas, that aren't Jacksonville. What does that

offense look like in high leverage situations? So I have the secret. This is what I figured out. This is the one constant all season. When they play a bad defense, they tear him up. They win those games. Sinci, Detroit, Green Bay. It doesn't matter if the offense is good on the other side. Las Vegas, they just tear them up. When they play a good defense, River struggles.

Baltimore, Tennessee, Cleveland, back in week five. But the one thing that stands out to me four years into this build from Chris Ballad, that's going to matter right now in December, it's going to matter in January, is the lines. This guy gets jacked up talking about defensive line and offensive line. to the run game. You saw how much they leaned on Ryan Kelly and Quentin Nelson on Sunday. That's why Jonathan Taylor had 150 yards. I remember talking to Chris Ballard after they drafted Quentin Nelson. It's like, you can't take a guard six. That's what everybody was saying. He said, I was tired of us getting our asses kicked in the line of scrimmage.

And so you're seeing like a four-year build start to come to fruition where he's got a bunch of first-round picks. He's got Buckner who's making crazy money on the other side. That's what's starting to carry them. So on offense, the NJ. is the offensive line, right? They've got those three first round picks on the left side. They're tough to stop because they're hard to predict and you kind of hit on why Reich is so good. You know, one week he loves his tight ends and you see Moeilly Cox go crazy. The next week he loves as running backs. The next week, all of a sudden, T.Y. Hilton looks reborn. So the multiple formations that he likes to use, it really keeps defenses guessing. And I think that's their best shot

to keep this offense going. But like you said, they're really good against bad defenses. And when they played good defenses, point blank, they have struggled. That's got to be a concern when they get to January. Two things that jump out to me about the Lions and the running game. One, Anthony Costanzos clearly hurt. I mean, when he's in the game, he is not playing at a high level right now. He's 70, 80% at best. And that was, I think that's even generous looking at what he looked like early in that Raiders game. And Cleveland Farrell beat him on a couple running plays quickly. And if he's 100%, that's just not happening. The other side of it, Stephen, I'm curious if you guys have asked Frank or anybody else about this, have they talked about how different the aiming points are

and what the running game looks like for Jonathan Taylor out of shotgun compared to what he did in college? Because I was a little bit dubious about the rushing success for most of the season. They're running the ball out of shotgun at the third highest rate in the NFL. One and two is Arizona and Baltimore. You can put those pieces together. It's easy to run out of shotgun when you have a running quarterback. You change the math.

when you're not, it puts your running backs in kind of an awkward position. Have you guys, have they discussed that at all, Stephen, or is that something that I'm coming to just cold here? No, no. It's actually been a very recent topic of conversation. So your timing is perfect. It came up this week. And I have actually wondered about this too. I've done some of that research on the shotgun.

I don't remember the numbers right now and I don't have updated numbers, but I do know just not only do they run out of the shotgun a lot. They're just a shotgun heavy team, period. I think it's 75% shotgun and I want to say 36% of their running plays come out of shotgun. Or 36%. I think that's what it is, which again, are very high rates compared to league average. Right. So there you go. And then you couple that with the fact that here's Jonathan Taylor coming from a Wisconsin program that's very traditional, under center a lot.

He doesn't have a lot of experience running out of the shotgun. And so, yeah, it has been, and they admit this, it has been a, a, a, transition. Nick Siriani, their OC, talked about this literally today. He said, that is, everything that's different requires a transition for a running back or for any rookie. And so imagine Jonathan Taylor. Here he is, he's thrown into this bigger role just unexpectedly because Marlon Mack tears his Achilles. Okay. So not only that, now they're running an offense that looks nothing like he ran in college. And usually it's the other way around. You run the pro style offense when you get to the NFL and you run sort of the spread out offensive college. He did

the resource, you know, so that makes total sense, right? But anyhow, yeah, it was definitely a transition for him. And there is no doubt, there is something to what you said that the defense doesn't have to account for Philip Rivers when they're in the shotgun. I mean, they don't even have to account for him like rolling out, okay? Not just like, is he going to, it's not a matter of, he might run. He can't move. He might scramble. No. He couldn't move if he had a good toe. Now it's just a whole different level to it. It's amazing.

He can move between where his drop is and where the line of scrimmage is. When you watch it on TV and you see the line of scrimmage marker on these plays, it's almost like it's a force field that he can't cross. He knows exactly where it is at all times and he's physically incapable of moving past it. Yeah, it's really hilarious, actually, I mean, when you put it that way, because it's true. And then the other thing, it's sort of funny. we don't consider this enough, I think. Frank Reich or any play car,

if your quarterback is Philip Rivers, you see all these other play callers, you know, using their quarterback's legs to their advantage, moving the pocket or rolling the quarterback out, boot legs. He can't do any of that. And yet he still calls pretty good games. So it's actually credit to Frank Reich that he rises above that.

And then, of course, you have, you know, one of the smartest quarterbacks that ever played the games. That helps, too. Zach, I think it when I watch the offense, Again, I like a lot of the stuff they do schematically, and I like a lot of the players that they have as space players. The way they use Nehiem Hines is fascinating. A lot of teams are using tons of empty this year, but they're using the running back as just a split-out guy to dictate coverage or to draw somebody out there. They scheme up Hines on those plays against linebackers from the slot. And then Michael Pittman's been really good on those underneath crossers is kind of a slasher.

I like what they can do with Burton and Doyle. but it all feels like a collection of role players. And that's my concern. They have guys that can do these things well and have specific strengths, but they don't have a lot of team speed, and they don't have that true alpha guy at this point in TY's career. So if you're looking at the offense, even if the line is good, even if Rivers is playing pretty well,

and they have a complimentary group where a lot of guys contribute, do you think that the higher level of talent is missing from this group and that has a chance to hold them back when they're playing against some of these better teams? That's a really good point. And I think the answer is twofold. Part of that is a compliment to Frank Wright because he wants that balance, right? He really wants that. He went to his offensive skill position players back in August and said, look, guys, you might have to sacrifice some touches. And we know who that was, right? That was Tiwi. And TY had a long stretch this year where he didn't, he wasn't out a huge factor in the offense. And a lot of questions around town about his future. And he started to break out the last couple of weeks. But you're right. Is there an alpha dog on this offense? I don't see one. And don't you need those. guys to win a couple games in January because this team used to have that at quarterback. They don't have that anymore. Your home run hitter in the run game was Marlon Mack and he's gone.

And there's just a lot of pretty good players. But I think the alpha dog might be Frank Reich. I think the way he can scheme up games, that might be their ace in the hole because what he's doing with this team, like you said, the crossers with Pittman, he's getting him in space. They line up Naheem out wide like he's a wide receiver. Now, Nahim did play a lot of wide receiver in college. But get him in space.

I mean, he's had some huge multi-touchdown games this year. It's been fun to watch. But every single week, it seems like it's a different guy. That's going to get you in the playoffs. Whether it gets you further in the playoffs, I don't know. But I think you're right. They don't have a stud, a true alpha dog guy that can take over a game like they used to with T.Y. Hilden, like they used to with Andrew Luck.

But the balance is there. The balance has carried him this far. Robert, if I could chime in real quick, I think we, I think Zach's exactly right. And we've seen this when this goes back to what we were talking about earlier, where they match up well with obviously bad defenses and playing tougher defenses. When they've played those tougher defenses and they've locked down, you know, be it T.Y. Hilton or whoever else they wanted to feature, they had a hard time rising above that. You know, Baltimore did it to him, for example. You know, and when they were kind of at full strength when they played Baltimore, the Ravens were. And you could see that.

There was definitely an inability of the Colts to rise above that and to win those individual matchups besides just winning them with scheme. And so that's where it gets hard. I agree with that. So my question, it's not even having a number one guy because I think having a number one guy could be overrated. I think you need one guy from every bucket in your receiving court. And they lack a guy from the speed bucket right now.

They just don't have that field stretching guy that can create space. for everyone else. If you look at the numbers, Rivers is attempting a deep pass, 20 plus yards in the air, 9% of his throws, one of the lowest rates in the NFL. They have 577 yards on deep passes.

It ranks 18th, but here are the guys below him on that list. Drew Locke, Dak Prescott. Dak Prescott has 507. He played in like five games, by the way. Nick Foles, Lamar Jackson, Jared Gough, Gardner, Minchew, Cam Newton, Nick Mollins.

Those are the guys below Philip Rivers on that list. It's a concerning number. And I think when you don't have that element, that's going to be one of those things that artificially holds this team back. You can have some bruisers. Even like the teams that don't have a true number one guy,

as long as you have somebody that can give you that element, I think that it really opens up the rest of your offense. They don't have that right now without Paris Campbell and with some of the other things they're dealing with. So, Zach, if some of these things that depress their ceiling that we've talked about, end up doing them in come playoff time. If this is a team that loses in the wild card round, let's say, I'm really curious about what comes next.

Because like we said, there's so much talent lining this entire roster. You feel like guys like Grover Stewart just are coming out of the woodwork for this team and the way that other teams and other franchises don't produce in-house players the same way they do. But if they fall short, it's going to be a big question about how they finish this off or try to. And the quarterback is the number one part of that. In your mind, if this team does, say, lose in the wildcar round and their offense is average and that's the conclusion we come to at the end of the season, do you think they're in a position to take a swing on somebody with a little higher upside than Philip Rivers at this point in his career? I'm surprised we didn't get the Carson Wentz name thrown in there. I think the question is, does Carson Wentz have more upside than Philip Rivers at this point? I don't know if he does.

Look, this is the question that everybody is asking around town. And it's been silenced a little bit of late because Philip Rivers has played really well. And it hurts me to ask because I love him so much. But I just think that you have to think of that way right now. Oh, they have to look at everything. And he's 39. And that's real. And what if he tapers off big time next year?

I mean, that's a reality they have to face. Look, here's the situation. They've got Rivers. When they entered into this one-year deal, the thinking was that if this went well, they would make it a two-year deal, right? So there's probably the best chance that Rivers comes back, barring a really bad injury at the end of the year, barring a collapse, barring, you know, anything out of the ordinary. There's Jacob Eason, too. And it's probably a little premature to consider him the starter, but he's this wonder kid with this million dollar arm who's the third stringer right now behind Jacoby Brissette. He's looked good in the practices we've seen, but you're never going to know until you get him into a training camp situation and then into games.

but he's there and he's an option and they like him. Jacobi's a free agent. He probably goes elsewhere, but that's not for certain. We know that Frank likes guys he's been with. This year, who was their number two choice in free agency? After Rivers, it was Nick Foles. Frank believes he can go get guys that he's worked with and guys that he trusts and he can make them great.

He believed it with Rivers. I asked him about it yesterday. And Frank was right. He deserves credit for that. And does he do that with Carson, Wins, I don't know. That's a huge gamble. That's a lot of money. And Carson Wins is not as good as Philip Rivers is right now. Objectively, we have to state that. I don't know the other options aren't there in free agency. I can't see DAC being available. But I've talked to Chris Bowitt about this.

And look, he was in Kansas City for four years before they got my homes. And that team was a good team. They won 10 games. Great point. Four years in a row. And what did they have to do to get over the home? They had to go get the guy. And he knows that that might be the last piece. And he knows he's not going to rush it because if he rushes it, he might not have a job. Erse is, I talked to Erse about this about a month ago, and he's on board.

He's being patient. But internally, they know this roster is way too good to not get the guy in the next couple of years and try and win a Super Bowl. That's where they're at because it'd be a shame. Darius Leonard's entering his prime. Quentin Nelson, DeForest Buckner. They got to find the guy. And I don't know how they do it.

It's so fascinating because it's almost like a football experiment. Because they had Andrew and you build this offense and you build this infrastructure around Andrew. And that's the thought about building up the line and making sure that you protect this franchise quarterback. Everything right now would have been set up for him. And that's exactly what. In a way that it was never set up in his entire career. And that's what is so hard for so many Coles fans. And that's why, so you look at it, and I think the Kansas City comparison is a great one, because it was a really similar situation.

You have the infrastructure. You have the play call or you have the help. And you have a quarterback that can keep the seat warm and really look good in moments because of what that infrastructure looks like. And now it's, can you get that guy that's one more jolt of energy? And that's the question that Chris Ballard has to answer. And I feel like there would be some people that would sit here and say, well, what are they doing? You know, if you're a 10 and 6 team or an 11-5 team that can't do anything in the playoffs, where are you going? Is it worth this? And he would absolutely tell you yes.

He can't. Yeah, he can't tank. There's no way. And I think they're learning how to win. And I think that they're developing a culture. And I think all that stuff makes sense. And I think coming to the quarterback last is something that worked for the chiefs. So, Stephen, in my mind, I think that not the most likely outcome, but the outcome that I think Colts fans could be excited about and one that makes sense to me is you bring

Rivers back on a one year, $25 million deal, whatever it is. They absolutely have the money. They're going to have the most cap space of any team in the NFL. And if you like a Zach Wilson or a Trey Lance and the draft breaks a certain way where one of those guys is available with the 10th overall pick, Chris Bauer loves his physical traits and both of those guys have them, I think it could make sense for them to go get one of those guys, have him be on the bench behind Rivers either for most of the year or the start of the year, whatever, and try to go to the chief's model. Does that make sense? sense to you. Yeah. Actually, I love that scenario. And I think that's, that's the way to go. If it all

works out, obviously, I mean, the scenario has to be there for you to seize it. But if that was available to them, yeah, I think that's not only plausible, but very possible even. Because here's the thing. I mean, all Philip Rivers does is buy you time. Okay. And they know that. Even Philip knows that. It's not a solution. It just buys you time. They have been, since the day Andrew Luck walked up to that podium, they have been about buying themselves time. Jacobi Brissette bought them a year of time. Philip Rivers is buying them time right now.

And then they've got to figure out if they don't find the solution, then they got to buy themselves another year next year. So they're really just- It's not going to be cheap forever. That's the problem. No. You're Darius-Lennards and your Quentin Nelsons and all of that stuff. Now you're starting to play on borrowed time.

You can't keep kicking the can down the road. And eventually you're going to have to make one. these decisions. So they're in the opposite position than they used to be. So they got this amazing prodigy quarterback, Andrew Luck, and then they just couldn't figure out how to surround him with enough talent or protect him, as Zach said earlier. And there was always something missing. They couldn't find the pieces. But they had the quarterback. That was there. Okay. Now, you know, it beat the football out of him, but that's another story, right? The bottom line here is, here you have the opposite situation.

You have literally everything else. You have both lines. You have wonderful skill players on defense, you know, the back half of the defense, I think, back seven. And then you have some building blocks on offense, I think, that you can work with, you know, and you've got to add to that. But that can be done. You can do that.

But you don't have the quarterback. So, yeah, they have completely flipped the script. And I don't know what's more frustrating, but I will say the quarter. The quarterback's harder to find. That is for sure the truth. And we have seen that play out across the NFL. So you are right. The clock is ticking. I mean, it doesn't take long. It doesn't in this league. The window doesn't stay open for long. So you've got to act. And if you get a young quarterback, he's got to grow. So that could take a year, two years, three years. So yeah, it's a process. And that process has to start soon. Zach, I think one of my thing, if you had to characterize the Chris Bower era, I think patience is. the way that you would describe it. That's how I would at least. He has never done anything on someone else's timeline. I remember talking to him after his first free agency period that summer, and their offensive line had questions. They had a ton of money, and they didn't really spend

it on offensive line, and they didn't go make a panic move at right tackle. And he just said, I didn't like how the market was. I wasn't going to do it just to do it. And he's done that the whole way through. And it's really served them well. But at a certain point, the clock is going to start ticking. And it just feels like we've reached that moment here. If it falls short this year and as they're currently constructed, if it's clear to them, we cannot win a championship with this group of players. I just think that there's going to be a sense of urgency going into next spring that we haven't seen from them since he took over three years ago. And he knows that. And he knows that. And look, this guy had other offers from other teams before he came to any of the

I think about him being the Bears GM three times a week. Here's been a lot from Bears fans. Other teams, not even in Chicago. And he didn't feel like he was going to get the time he needed to do it right. And I think objectively, you can say he's done it right four years in. How long does the grace period end? And secondly, here's the question everybody asked in Indianapolis. Your franchise quarterback drops a bomb on you 15 days before the season starts.

How long does that grace period end? How long do you get to get over that? So they didn't panic in year one, right? Post-Indu-look, they got a filler. They got Philip Rivers to fill the void. How long does that laugh? That's going to be the million-dollar question. And my other point that I think is interesting is they're not going to find one of those top six or seven guys, right?

I mean, barring a miracle, you're not going to get them a Holmes or Rogers or a Brady or something like that, probably. Can you do it with a Garapolo level guy? Is this team good enough? me as a lateral move from Rivers. Yes, yes, but Rivers is done in two years. And Garoppolo was the third and 15 away from being a Super Bowl champ last year. But Garoppelos, I think Garoppel's ceiling is defined. I think if you're going to take a swing, you take a swing on the guy with the endless

pool of ability, even if there are questions about how serviceable he'd be now. And I think that's on a young guy, I think that's a young guy. I think that requires somebody in the draft. And I think that you could make a similar argument, even if you could construe as a lateral move, about a guy like Stafford. I think that's the other side of it. If you're going to go with a veteran, I think that's the type of guy

that alters your ceiling just because of the physical gifts he has compared to somebody like Rivers. I'd be 100% on board with Stafford. Now, the one unknown is Jacob East, there's a lot of talk about this guy. You're pumping up this Jacob East today. You're walking the company line here.

I really appreciate that. You want to talk about an arm. This kid's got an arm. I'm just saying don't rule it out. Don't rule it out. I'm glad that we ended our cults podcast about their future with the Jacob Eason note. I'm sure that that's what I'm going to let you know in five years when he becomes the stub. I'm like, you remember, I called it.

And if he doesn't, if he doesn't, I never said this. That's great. We could strike it from the record. Guys, this was fantastic. I sincerely appreciate the time. Please sincerely go check out the work that both of these guys do. I love all of our athletic writers. I think everyone does a great job.

The Colts are, in my opinion, one of the best cover teams we have. Both of these guys do fantastic work. Zach wrote about Kenny Moore this week. It was a great piece. He did something about Chris Bauer last week, kind of touching on a lot of the things that we've discussed. Please go check out all the things that they do. You will not regret it.

Appreciate the time, guys. I'll see you later. All right, guys, that's our show for today. Thank you so much to Matt for joining us and digging into his favorite play callers in the league. I had a great time with that. Thank you to Stephen and Zach for breaking down the Colts. We'll be back tomorrow with our typical Thursday show with Lindsay Jones.

Also will be having a special guest that we didn't have time for it today. I'm excited for you guys to hear that. Until we get to tomorrow's show, please do me a favor. Please rate and review the podcast and favorite podcast platform of choice. I would sincerely appreciate that. Also, please subscribe to The Athletic. Theathletic.com slash football show. We have our two-for-one promotion going on through the end of the year.

Buy an athletic subscription and get one free. That is a tough deal to beat. I promise you guys you won't regret it. Thank you so much for listening. We'll talk to you tomorrow. This was The Athletic Football Show.