The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Matthew Stafford trade pros & cons for the Rams & Lions - why'd they make the move?

Episode Date: February 1, 2021

The Rams and Lions set the NFL world on fire Saturday by announcing a blockbuster trade that would send QB Matthew Stafford to the Rams in exchange for Jared Goff, 2022 & 2023 1st round picks & a 2021 3rd rounder.Why did the Rams make the move to acquire Stafford, and why did the Lions let him go? What trickle down affect does it have on the rest of the league? The Athletic's Robert Mays and Nate Tice discuss the intricacies of the deal on a NEW Athletic Football Show.Remember to get all access to The Athletic for only $3.99 per month at theathletic.com/footballshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me, I guess today, we're recording this little earlier than normal. It's my good buddy, Nate Tyson. Nate, how are you? Doing great. Did something happen last night?

I was in a middle of a board game last night. Just a little bit. So obviously, it would have been a strange setup either way. Usually we record after the Sunday night games end, overnight. No games this week. So we were going to do something a little bit different. and then I'm sitting there last night, it's just a blizzard in Chicago. I'm not there now.

I'm in a hotel in Tampa, if you guys can't tell. It's a blizzard in Chicago. I'm sitting there watching freaks and geeks with my girlfriend and my dog, drinking hot chocolate, and then I see it on my phone and I go, holy shit. And she thought something had actually happened. Well, something had actually happened, just more in my world than in the general world. So what were you doing last night? I know you were also not busy, but otherwise occupied.

I was. I was playing a two-player board. game with my wife and in it is, oh my God, this sounds so, let's, let's lean into it. This is a real window into your lifestyle. Yes. Continue. This is what I do on a Saturday night is we, it's the 1960, it's called 1960 to making them a president, but basically you're, you're the campaign managers for JFK and Richard Nixon and you just do, you do the election. It takes about two and a half hours. First time we played it. So I'm playing it. We're about, I don't know, I'll say about 45 minutes into the game. We're starting to get a hang of it.

and I feel my phone just going nuts. Oh, it's the first time you played it. First time I played this one. Yeah. I know the wife. Oh, yeah,

she was trying to throw me a bone and just go like, hey, you want to try that long game that you've been talking about for a couple months now? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Oh, and then when she does that, I make sure everything's situated. I set it all up. I watch rules instructions. But like, I'm in the middle of that. My phone just going nuts in my pocket.

I'm like, all right, you know, since quarantine's started, it's just been group texts, you know, so sometimes your phone just goes nuts. I'll deal with it later.

I looked down. And all of a sudden I just see trade, trade, trade, trade, too much, too little, too much to it. And I looked at it. And I had just made a big push as JFK into the Midwest into the state of Michigan. And I was just looking. I was just like, I'll deal with this later. I put my phone down. But yeah, that was my night last night figuring out this trade was just as JFK was making

a big inroads until building his blue wall in Michigan. I get a trade about the Detroit lines and the L.A. Rams. But yeah, that was my Saturday night, and then here we are. It was one of those deals where you had to make sure the Schefter account was real. I mean, it sounded so outlandish that I was making sure it was real each time. Because to see a trade like this, it's almost unprecedented. We have quarterback swapped for each other with a ton of draft capital. When you get into the nitty gritty of it, does make sense.

But the idea that Jared Goff and Matthew Stafford would be traded for one another, along with a lot of picks, truly is shocking. And it was so weird to have it happen that way. It really does remind me of the Alex Smith trade in a certain way. That happened. I remember sitting at a bar at the hotel in Minneapolis before the Super Bowl with Kevin Clark and we were doing some ringer stuff. And that's when that trade happened.

So the timeline on this was sort of similar, a little bit earlier. But that was one of those deals. We're like, I can't believe this is real. And then Jordan Roderick from the Athletics, she confirmed it, everyone else. And then the dialogue kind of got started. And I reached out to you and I just said, let's just go after this from every single way. Because I think that what makes this interesting isn't just the names that were swapped. It's not just the fact that these two teams are going to be having different starting

quarterbacks and all of the implications. But it's every wide-ranging implication. It's what this says about value. It's what this says about how teams acquire talent, how they look at draft capital, what the window is like, how much you have to maximize that window, how much quarterback's surrounding matters. So all of this context associated with this trade, I think makes it fascinating from so many different angles. And that's why I really wanted to dig into it. So outside of that initial just shock, what was your first reaction when you heard that this had happened?

Of course, it's the Rams. That was, honestly, that was first, I mean, first, that was what it was. It was like, okay, of course it's the Rams. Like, it was like the Rams have been showing that they're willing to just lean into it like we just talked about and just just go for it. They're going for broke. That was my first reaction to it. But after that, then, like you said, all the other thoughts, like this is such a great launch point to talk about everything, not just with football, but just sports. Like, because now you could start bringing other, like the cross-pollination of sports ideas because really there's so many comparisons you can make with NBA team building and going from there and baseball is its own thing too. But like, it was kind of cool. It's just seeing all the

thoughts that can come for this good and bad, whether this is good for the Rams, good for the lines, good for the quarterbacks, good for anything like that. Whatever you want to, I think it really held up a mirror to what a lot of people are talking about, however they want to talk about it. I think that's what's so interesting. We all curate our Twitter timelines to kind of really, you know, you hate follow a few people, but you know, mostly follow people that you want to have interactions with it. I honestly don't, I don't think all that many people.

I try to make my online experience a little bit healthier now that I've gotten older. But keep going. I understand what you're saying. I know, but I do too. I would say I, but you curate your timeline to have that. And I think that's what was so cool with this trade was there's so many interesting things to talk about. Totally. Instantly.

And I didn't want to throw anything out there that quickly because I knew that we'd be doing this. So I wanted to sit with my thoughts a little bit. But I can, I totally agree with you. And those were my first couple of thoughts because my first thought was just, oh, of course, it's the Rams. And then I started to figure out whether I should make inroads into Texas with JFK. But then, but then. After that, it was kind of like, okay, just a lot of things. Because then how my brain operates is the first thing I think of is scheme fit.

And, you know, that's, I started going like, okay, yeah, Stafford. Stafford's kind of scheme proof. He can run anything. But man, those play action stuff and all the, you know, all the over intermediate stuff that Stafford is fantastic a hitting and throwing stuff off platform, that's where my brain immediately went to. And then that's what's fun about seeing Twitter and let it marinate a little bit more as you start to see the other angles of this trade.

But that's where my brain went was, you know, of course the Rams did this. How am I going to attack Texas with JFK? And how are the Rams going to attack defenses with Matthew Stafford? You were kind of coming out in two different directions. That's how I looked at it. Mine was looking at the price first. And obviously when you see the two first round picks. By the way, we haven't said what he was traded for.

So it's first round picks in 2022 and 2023 and a third round pick this year going to Detroit and Jared Goff coming back. So you look at it and you say, wow, that's a lot for Matthew Stee. Stafford, right? Two firsts and a third. And then you kind of pull back, it's like, well, like you said, cross-pollination, different sports, in some ways, this is an NBA salary dump. You know, the Lions can say whatever they want about wanting Jared Gough and having

Jared Gough be their quarterback this year. But I think part of that package is rooted in the Lions taking on Jared Gough's contract that the Rams are going to have a hard time getting out from under. So when you think about that and you really just consider, okay, and it's hard to parse the exact value, whether it was a first and a third, first, first, Stafford and then a first for the contract or whether it's not, the lines aren't that clean. That's hard to say. But when you look at it, the RAMs saved about $28 million in a salary cap space this year by trading golf instead of cutting him after June 1st.

Also, a bunch of cash. You know, a lot of that dead money, that $22 million in dead cap he's going to take up in 2020 is signing bonus that was already paid to him. So when you think about the amount of cap space saved and the amount of cash saved by moving on from him, the first round pick does make a little bit of sense, even if it's pretty expensive. So then after that, kind of considering all of the, all right, why did it cost this much? Where are the Lions drawn part? I went right to this is an exercise in how much quarterback surroundings matter. Because if you look at the actual results, right, the Rams went to the playoffs last year.

The Rams have been to the Super Bowl two years earlier. I think if you look at the actual EPA numbers since 2009, Matthew Stafford came into the league. There are 53 quarterbacks who have played at least 1,500 snaps, all right? Goff is 25th in EPA per play. Stafford is 22nd. They're very close.

Stafford is one spot behind Marcus Marriota. All right? So that, on its face, it's like, it's not that much of an upgrade aesthetically, but then you dig into how much better is Matthew Stafford than Jared Goff. And that's a considerable and important question that we will dig into. But those are my first two things.

It was, man, that's a ton. Let's figure out the price and what it actually means. And then two, this is a laboratory experiment about how much circumstances matter for quarterbacks and how much a certain quarterback can benefit from being in better circumstances. And again, that's the third time we're talking about the cross pollination of it is just this is like a natural culmination of all the trades we've seen of stars the last couple of years. you know, with the Kille Mack trade and Jailen Ramsey trade and Jamal Adams and, you know, a couple first rounders and some other picks. Like that's kind of like the going rate. 30-something year old quarterback.

Okay, we see what his quote-unquote value is. Again, market's always changing. But I think it's easier to swallow when it's a quarterback. I think that just changes the value, of course. I think, again, we could talk about the NBA and the cross-pollination stuff because like the Anthony Davis trade. like yeah i'm not saying matthew stafford's the tier of anthony davis is in the NBA but like those trades become a lot more tolerable when you realize what the team acquiring them is in i will lebron james this is our window okay let's get them throw whatever picks whatever guys we need to get get

this pick get it done and just maximize it's a lot easier a lot easier as well it's different in football trust me than NBA but it's it's also you're upgrading from that 16 to 20 tier quarterback to really I think, and I know what you said with the EPA numbers and stuff, really I think Stafford is more in that firm 7, 8, 9, 10 range as a quarterback that can truly win you those games. Yeah, but that's what that's what the premium you're paying. The quarterback is the premium of premium positions. This is what you have to do to accomplish. Not only just get that Alex Smith's trade happened, the original one to Kansas City. You know, that happened.

It was just to get competence at quarterback. And that, you know, it was a second round or whatever. If you're getting like a pretty good starting quarterback, it's this. But now we're getting, not even getting a sure thing starting quarterback. The RG3 trade was three first rounders. Paying a premium for this position is worth it usually. I mean, that's what you're trying to argue is like why you're paying that. It's because it's the quarterback position.

If there's any spot you want to upgrade from above average to good, it's quarterback. Because that opens up so many more aspects for your team. And we talk about what the Rams are doing a little bit later. But like, yeah, but I understand why they did it. So one of my other takeaways just immediately upon it happening was there's a scene in 30 rack where Tracy's dog runs away. And he says, man, he did not want to live here. Like as soon as the electric fence goes off or whatever, one of my first takeaway was, man, the Rams did not want Jared golf on this team, like in the exact same tone. And that was my thought.

It's just, it's amazing how much they were willing to pay to get him out off the roster. And it's amazing how fast this happened, right? So 17 months ago. They signed Jared Gough to that extension. 17 months. It was in September of 2019. It was 20 months from the time they signed the girly extension to when they released him. It was about 20 months from the time they signed the Cooks extension to when they traded him.

The Jared Gough $22 million in dead money this year is a record. The old record was the dead money they paid Brandon Cooks in 2020. I mean, this is this team definitely is trailblazing in a way that I'm not sure if you want to trailblaze. And obviously he's a very rich person, right? And Jared Goff is probably doing just fine. But with how quickly this happened and how publicly the disrespect and the distancing happened, it was hard not to feel for him a little bit last night. I don't know if I've ever told this story, but after the Super Bowl, when they played the Patriots, I was down in the bowels of the stadium. And the way the Super Bowl access works is there's like an interview room that you go to

and all the players are at podiums. But the locker room is open. Just not a lot of people go in there. So I went into the Rams locker room and I'll never forget golf talking to Sean Mannion and them just kind of going over what went wrong and kind of talking it through and almost rationalizing it in a way in a very, this animated way.

And golf was just beat up. I mean, you remember that game? He got the shit kicked out of him. And, I mean, you just got all these scrapes all over his arms and whatever. And then he went to the podium and I was walking back to the locker room and he was walking back too. And I don't know Jared that well, but we've talked several times

since he's coming to the league. And I just remember talking to him just real briefly. How you're feeling? You know, da da da da, da, da, da. Like, you know, it was a tough day. And he just really seemed beaten down as you'd expect after losing the Super Bowl.

And I just never thought ever that that would be the beginning of the end. It would just never cross my mind that, you know, that moment when I talked to him in that hallway, it would be all downhill from there. I just figured that he was a former number one pick. He had played fantastic that season.

Their offense was so much fun to watch. And I know that it had stalled a little bit in the second half of the year and into the playoffs. But I still had a lot of faith in his ability and what they could be and everything else. And now it's over. And he told Mike Silver last night or this morning, but Mike reported that golf was happy to be with a team that wanted him that actually was excited about having him on the roster compared to how the Rams

were treating him. And it really is amazing to me just how fast we got from this being the next hot thing to them being willing to cut the cord in a way we've almost never seen with a quarterback that has that sort of financial commitment associated with him. Yeah. The classic saying is what does NFL stand for? Not for long. And it's more than ever. It's applying to all sports, but especially with football, is I think teams, players, agents, even fans a little bit, I think they're still a little slow to this, is,

hey, they're all becoming mercenaries. And there's only so much culture building, so much team building that happens now. This league now becomes a week to week and four weeks to four weeks a league. It's such a yearly league as well. And there's always roster churn at the bottom of the roster, those last 10 spots, 12 spots, 15 spots, especially with a new head coach. There's a ton more. But there's only a certain amount of untradable stars. And really it's becoming one of those things in the NFL that I think teams are becoming more apt to go, hey, yeah, what's, let's get this player in a better situation for them to thrive. What's us get in a better situation as a team and culture and all that? I just think it's just a changing perception. I think it's just

more everyone's becoming comfortable with this way of looking at professional sports in North America, starting with baseball. And then it seems to be the trend. It goes, basketball, football. I can't speak for hockey, you know, as much. But it's, it's one of those things that I think it's just, I think it's just more of a comfort level and more of a thing that's like, hey, like you said, golf's like somewhere that like believes in me too. It's like those types of things are becoming just more accepted that it's like, hey, I know what my worth is. I don't, I'm not succeeding here. Hey, what's best for everyone? Everyone's learning to compromise a little bit more. I think the days of my way or the highway, no, this guy's locked into his contract.

He's our quarterback. I think teams are being a little more self-aware. And I think actually it's for the best for everyone. I think it becomes a more exciting product to watch. And it's just a little more, teams are just more apt to do things to maybe make themselves better. And does it work all the time? No,

but I think it's better for the whole league and for the whole sport, really. And I think that that dynamic, it really speaks to why the contract was handed out originally and where teams are going to go with these deals in the future. Because part of the reason you hand out that extension to your quarterback, especially after you've been winning, is it's a way to speak to your locker room.

Like, if you play well and you contribute to us winning, here's how you're rewarded. And so far, over the last five years or so, quarterbacks have really been rewarded in one specific way. It's been this monster extension. And it's the same deal that's been handed to all of these guys and it's only going up and up and up. And it seemed like the Rams were kind of in that old mode of thinking.

We have our guy. We know we can win with this guy. this is the going rate to retain this guy and keep everything together and keep this rolling. They quickly understood that was the wrong choice and moved on. How that dynamic is going to affect other teams now is a really fascinating question. It is. And I think that this could be. Pandora's box just got open.

That's what happened. Absolutely. This and the Wents contract, this could be the moment where I think we see the middle class of quarterback contract reemerge. Because if you're the Browns, I think they're the perfect example in all of this, right? You're going to be asking yourself a lot of really similar questions to the ones that the Rams are asking about Jared Goff.

How much is the system contribute to his success? How much does he contribute to his success? If you're the Browns in this situation and you come down on the side of the system more than the player, you have to draw a line in the sand. You have to say, this is what we're offering you. we're not offering you anymore because we understand what's contributing to this. And you have to take into account the locker room and how much people like him and all of that.

But I do think we're going to see more hardline stances with these quarterbacks as teams start to understand. We can't just pay a guy because we've seen he can do just enough. We have to know that this is the right guy. And I think what's happened with Wenson Goff is going to inform those decisions over the next couple of years here. Yeah, that's just a great continuation of the idea. right there like that with Cleveland have what they're going to have to do and going like hey it's it's all the self-scouting and self-awareness that they have to have and that's that's putting your the teams have have to bet on themselves that's it's it's awesome I actually think I actually enjoy that it's rather

than just going like hey paying this guy max deal and going like hey he's our guy he's our guy that's our quarterback you know and you do have to do that in some extent don't get me wrong you do have to do that a little bit. But I think the awareness that these teams, some of these teams are forward thinking or at least willing to ask questions are doing is awesome because it's just showing your, the market's correcting a little bit as opposed to everyone just getting the new deal and he's the highest paid guy for two weeks until the new guy signs a new deal. It's like, no, what's like you said, it's the middle class market.

It's let these guys get paid what they're actually worth and now set it for everybody else. And that, and also goes to show you. I think it's a I've made this joke that there's only elite quarterback seems to almost be like the Sith lords. Like not that there's two, but more like that there's three or four at a time. And when one drops off, another one takes his place kind of thing. I always have that feeling with the quarterbacks. Same thing. The top three or four guys deserve that money.

They are the superstars. And then there's a chunk of like that upper middle tier. Then there's the middle class and then there's the rest. And it's like, okay, these guys should get paid. We should stop having the 12th best quarterback getting paid the number two money. You know, and I get it. That's how markets are always going to work. And there's going to be some guys overpaid and underpaid.

But I do think. But somebody has to put their foot down. Somebody has to do it. As opposed to somebody, everybody defaulting and go, well, we have to pay our guy because everyone else did it. I now think football teams, because they're the slowest to trends. Trust me, I've been involved with this game my entire life. These are the slowest to trends, the people in the NFL are.

The fact that they're showing willingness to look at it in different ways is kind of cool. It's like, okay, now this is just the first of a type of. of trend that could happen with other contracts and other position worth and draft picks. And as teams get more creative with it, it leads to cool stuff. It leads to more discussion like we're having right here. This is awesome. This is good for football, good for the league because you're getting a guy in a better situations.

I think in both aspects, I think it's a win-win, even if it's a costly trade for the Rams. I think it's just a good thing. I think both teams realize what they are, the Lions realizing, hey, living in this middle class world with a good starting quarterback, not really a great place to be in. he's too good to blow it up because he's not going to be happy. Okay, now they can reset and do what they want to do with golf. And the Rams on the other, and we all know what they're doing.

They're all freaking in. This is their window to try and close. They're trying to maximize it right now. I think it's great. I think teams being more willing and self-aware of doing this is awesome. Of course, there's always going to be the fish at the table, but I think more sharks are coming to the table.

There are worst-case scenarios, right? Like, that's what the Cowboys did with deck. They essentially said, we're not doing this. and now you see the ramifications of that. But that's the thing is, DAC deserved to get paid. He did. He absolutely did.

That's the difference. And I completely agree with that. But that is the risk that you run. Because that's the question, right? If you're Cleveland and you're dealing with Baker, the question you have to ask yourself is, what's the worst thing that can happen? And the worst thing that can happen is he walks.

And you have to be willing to live with that. If you're willing to live with that, then I think that you have to draw a line in the sand and say this is how much we're going to pay. Because that deal, that $20 million quarterback contract, that is right now reserved for bridge quarterbacks. That is the Teddy Bridgewater contract. And I just think, and that says a lot.

And I think that some team has to be willing to say, we're not going over this number because we know how much you do and how much everything else contributes to the success that you've had. That's a really tough thing to parse. It's hard to understand where those lines are. But I think more teams are going to have those antenna up. And I've talked to people about this even before golf was traded about what this could mean for Baker. And I just think that this is going to inform that thinking.

So speaking of lines in the sand, Jordan Roderick, from the athletic, she's reported today that eight other offers were on the table for Stafford. And there have been a lot of different details about that. I think most of them, if not all of them, had a first round pick on the table, including a 2021 first round pick. but her language that she used is that Rams offer blew them all out of the water. So I think that speaks to what you said about it being a perfect fit and kind of these two sides coming together. You had the Brad Holmes effect now in Detroit. He has a line of communication obviously with less need. They're familiar with one another.

Also, the lions were in a pretty unique spot that they could take the golf contract and maximize their assets. So I was having a conversation with someone today in a league about just where the lion has to be. to exist with Stafford. And for better or for worse, and you can shit on this thinking or you can support this thinking, I think some teams thought he's a 33-year-old guy

who's never won anything and has never lifted up the offenses he's played for, which I think is fair, right? Because Matthew Stafford's presence alone has not been enough to guarantee elite offense. If he's one of those two or three Sith Lord type quarterbacks, you'd be good no matter what.

He is not that. And they still gave up a ton to get him. So you can judge it how you want to. But I think that was some of the thinking with these teams that were in the running is they said, we have a price that we're sticking by. And we're not going to go more than that because just having Matthew Stafford is not enough. Yep. And that's I have had to catch myself a couple of times in this conversation. I was about to say, you know, elite quarterback.

But I'm like, I keep going good to very good. You know, because that's where that's the biggest question. Big difference. What's the difference between good and very good? or transcendent. Like those, that is the, what, how much does this contract? $150 million question. You know, that's like, that's the stuff you have to figure out.

It's, it's whether, whether going from 16th best quarterback to the seventh best quarterback or however you want to shake it, but that tier is that. Is he the seventh best quarterback? I think that is a worthwhile question. It's a question we don't know the answer to. And we don't know. And we don't know. That's what I know.

But most of the times when we ask these questions, oh, so and so playing that offense, and say it looks so much better. Now we get to do it. Now we actually get to do it. And it's like that's actually what's great about this. It's like now we might get some of these movements of these not just star players, but quarterbacks, these good quarterbacks that move around. We saw Philip Rivers in the Colts offense.

Like that was awesome. Like we're going to, we see Tom Brady and the buck's offense. Like if we see more of this where these guys's windows are extended later in their careers or, you know, there's a little more movement. It's some more of these what ifs are going to happen. Hopefully when these guys are still in their prime. I get what they're saying that, oh, he hasn't won anything. He hasn't done this.

He hasn't done that. All valid. It really is. I mean, if Stafford is that stud guy that the number one pick hype that all that the 5,000 yard thrower, he would do that note. You don't have to squint. That's what I always say. You don't have to squint to see these guys.

You don't have to win a bunch of games because I think that quarterback wins thing is overrated. But you would hope that his presence alone would be enough for you to be an above average offense at the very least. And that just hasn't necessarily been the case. for Detroit. And you can blame it on the supporting cast or the coaching staff, whatever. That's fine. But when you comes down to it, just having him has not even been enough for the Lions to consistently be in the top half of the league offensively. And I think that should matter as you're considering all of this. Absolutely should. I talk about both sides. You can't fall in love with the

talent. You can't because I'm the same way just the armed talent. I've actually always been lower on staff for the most because I, the flashes of armed talent. I, the flashes of arm talent is what you drill over. But it's, that's why we, we've talked about Stafford like five times this year. And every time we talk about it, we always go, he makes a couple of those throws. And you're just like, holy shit. But that's the thing with Stafford. It's, it's the flash throws.

It, what about the other 30 throws? You know, exactly. That's always, that's always been his thing. And he's 30. Every time you, everyone says his age, because Stafford was a great above me in high school and college. And so every time I hear his age, which every time somebody talks about him being 32 and 33, I I get depressed.

I go. He's 27. He's 27. You know, like, that's in my head. I think you said 33 and I'm like, oh, gosh, dang it. That's right. We're getting to that age. But that's, that's, I, I, I think those, uh, those qualms about Stafford are completely

valid. I also think that he's been stuck with the lines. Um, I, I do think being in that, that organization and the choices they've made over the years has, you know, limited any upside that he can have. But I get it because now I'm talking about both sides of my mouth because my thing what I've always, I hesitate to even label guys as good because I think we undervalue the word good. I think a little bit sometimes we go, oh, this player is good.

It's like, hey, good is good. Elite is elite. And I've always said that, like, if you're very good to elite, you shouldn't have to squint. No matter what scheme you're in, no matter, shouldn't have to squint. Stafford, sometimes you have to squint. So I get it. I get it. I think the word with him is, he's talented.

He's talented. Whether he's good or very good. Traits. He is talented. And at a certain point, when you're 32 going on 33 and you've spent a decade in the league, how much risk is there in talking yourself into the talent? Again, we're going to get into why the Rams did this and whether it's worth it. And I understand why they did it.

But I think that you absolutely are taking a risk and talking yourself into and rationalizing what Matthew Stafford has been over his entire career by saying, we can get more out of him. We've seen this consistently with highly-dressing. drafted talented players in the NFL forever. Coaches think I'm the guy that can do it for him. And I really do believe that in this offense, Matthew Stafford, can be really good. And that upgrade might be enough to take the Rams to a different level.

But you absolutely, it requires some imagination to get there because we have not seen it. So let's look at this from the Lions perspective for a second. If you're Detroit, why do you want to do this? Why is this the package that you would take? And my answer to that is that they're in a position to eat the golf contest. contract. And by doing that, they can take that extra first round pick. There was no other scenario where they were getting two first and a third for Matthew Stafford. So this one just happened to include Goff and his contract. But in the end, I think this deal gives them the most possible assets

to hit the reset button in the way they want to do. Is that kind of how you feel about it as to why they would take this rather than an immediate first round pick, etc.? Yeah. And not only just getting the picks, but even just having a tangible quarterback to kind of make them look competent, I think. You know, we'll see how Goff looks in a non-McVey offense. We saw him as rookie year, and that was something to write home about. But it's, I think that actually isn't so bad. I know the cap stuff is huge and all that. Well, we can talk about that too. But it's, I think it's the best thing they could do is get as many picks as possible and pivot and just start looking at what they can do. They get golf. They get at least a guy that knows what the hell he's doing.

no matter what they're going to put them in. So at least the guys they have, even though they aren't retaining a lot of talent other than like the draft runoffbacks. But even though they draft runnersbacks, they would have Adrian Peterson being their leading rusher for a game. But it's, I think it's a good way. I think there's nothing worse than wallowing in that 7 to 9 to 9 and 7 world.

And then lucking in every three or four years, you look into a playoff spot and then you talk yourselves into, oh yeah, these guys are good. I think when you bottom out or at least, you know, that four to 12, six and 10 area, you at least you can kind of go, okay, this guy is tangibly good because we suck and he still was a competent player. Okay, this guy was okay, you know, but we, you know, he, he's overrated.

He's paid way too much. Hey, I was trying to train for a fifth rounder and get him off the, off of a roster. Kind of like the 76ers when they went to the process era was they were, they're always the eighth seed, always the seventh seed. And there's nothing worse than NBA to be the eight seed or seven seed because you don't get a lottery pick that you can shoot up and get your star because you need your stars in the NBA. I think there is some of that in the NFL. I don't think there's anything worse than being 7-9, 8, 8, 9-7, true talent team that-

It's called the Bears, Nate. That's what it's called. It's so funny. Okay, this is my exact line. I have to say, this is whatever up. You're getting stuck with your ceiling is 9-7. You're hoping to get some luck to 10, 6, or 11-5. And then you can drop it off to 6 and 10 or 7-9 next year and you can't tuck yourself

in retooling because we were just 11 to 5 last year. You know how we know all about this? It's because it's just what the Bears freaking did. That's literally what my note is. but I was trying to paraphrase all that. But yeah, that's what the Bears just did. They talked themselves into it. There's nothing worse than that.

That is, we'll get to that line of thinking with the Rams because I think that's true. For Detroit, it's interesting to me because I honestly think in a vacuum, the best thing the Lions could do right now, if they're really trying to blow this up and start over, is convert that. So golf's base salary is $25 million, which gives you some flexibility because you can convert that into salary or signing bonus, whatever you want to do. I honestly think that the Lions might be well served. Again, this isn't a vacuum. Converting that base salary into a bonus, being able to spread it out, push the money

into future years, and then possibly dealing golf to a different team. Because I think Jared Goff right now is more valuable to a lot of other teams than he is to the Lions. Because like what you said, he gives them competent quarterback play. Do the Lions need competent quarterback play? Why wouldn't it be better for this team to just completely bottom out? rather than paying Jared golf's $25 million salary and having a guy who can play the position a little bit. But again, that's in a vacuum. Teams just aren't willing to do that.

I think you probably could have said something similar about the Panthers last year. Why would you want to go spend that money on Teddy Bridgewater when it's in your best interest to bottom out? Teams just aren't willing to commit that often to that version and that vision of a rebuild. Because I think it just sends a rough message to your locker room. The fact that we're, I mean, the Jaguars did it and they did it with Minchu and they had that kind of aesthetic tank that they did where, you know, we're seeing if Minchu's the guy, but in reality, you're just not going out and getting a real quarterback because you kind of want to lose games. I think there's value in that strategy, but losing is tough. And it's really tough for the young players on your team as you're trying to rebuild this. And the Lions have a top 10 pick, all of that.

A lot of these teams have wanted a steady, if unspectacular hand on the wheel. at that position, even if they're quote unquote rebuilding. And it feels like the lions are following a similar path in bringing golf in and sticking with him if that's in fact what they're going to do. And the NBA, it's when they, when they, when they, team start tanking, it's not that they just signed the worst possible players. They sign like the old aging vets. Yes.

You know, we're not tanking. We got Vince Carter, you know, 30-year-old Vince Carter. It's starting for us. Thank you very much, 2019 Miami Dolphins led by Ryan Fitzpatrick. That is what I was just about to. say because but also the dolphins the 2019 dolphins they yeah it's easier in hindsight to say this but they kind of did it right the second half of the year because you can see how hard that team was fighting they kind of were like you know like hey all these guys that were retooling and and hey these

are your chance to get reps so however they sold it to those players they did a great job because that's hard to do it's i think it's easier to do it on a 15 team or 15 player roster like the NBA you got 52 guys 53 guys plus practice squad guys plus a whole staff plus auxiliary staff plus personnel guys at the NFL. Kind of hard to all get marching a lockstep sometimes. But I think that that's what that's what you're doing. You're trying to be, you're trying to lose valiantly.

You're trying to lose like in the best way possible with effort. And but also like no one wants to look like complete shit. Like you don't like there's a you can tank in the NFL and go four and 12, five and 11. But you know, own 16, 115. That's hard.

That's tough. That's a top. That's a long season. Not a lot of games to win. because even the worst NBA teams wins 20 games. So I just think it's a way. I think you absolutely can tank with Jared Goff because there's a question of how much they're going to add around him. I mean, they don't have any receivers.

Are you going to spend any more money or is Jared Goff going to be it? You can spend and pay $25 million for Jared Goff and not have it crush your future cap and all this other stuff. If they cut guys like Desmond Truffat, Justin Coleman, a couple other players on this roster, they can easily be fine in terms of the salary cap and be very bad even if Jared Goff is their quarterback. I just, this is always something I take into consideration with teams that are rebuilding. What do you do with a quarterback position if you're rebuilding and what's the logic behind it? Sometimes it's just difficult for me to read because it just seems like there's a one more step these teams could take similar to the one that Miami and Jacksonville did that other teams just don't really have the fortitude to take. Yeah, like, yeah, I get exactly what you made.

It's like they don't go all the way into tanking. Exactly. Yeah, they're nine toes. They're nine toes in and they just can't put their last big toe in. Just going like, yeah, and then we're going to put, you know, we're going to have Josh Rosen starting out for us at quarterback. We want to, and that's how you sell it. We're giving him a chance. He's never had a chance at reps with a real team, you know, and, you know, this is our opportunity to evaluate him.

And that that's how you sell it. But I think a lot of teams just go, well, that's a hard sell. So at least get somebody that started, you know, a full season or two has some, has some, has some credibility. to their name because I think it's a lot easier. It helps with the messaging for sure. Easier to sell. And it, you don't want, it's hard, because a lot of those guys, football is such a physical and tough game.

And it's, a lot of those players are, they are, I hesitate using this word, but they are sacrificing themselves out there. And they're, they're really putting them, putting their livelihoods out there for you. So it's a hard sell to get these guys. I wouldn't want to ask a human being to go out there and just be like, hey, yeah, we're trying to lose, but go out there and fit up that linebacker. Let's go out there and set that edge. Hey, you have to block Khalil Mack 12 times, 15 times this game.

Yeah, it's going to hurt and suck. And you know the quarterback sucks. You have to do that. You know your quarterback doesn't give you a chance. And if I'm in the huddle and I look at the quarterback and I see Teddy Bridgewater or golf, I go, okay, at least this guy knows what the fuck he's doing. That's exactly right. As opposed to just looking at him and going like, all right, this guy's starting

first, this undrafted rookie? Yeah, right. Like, oh, then it's all, it's bottom out. And you get one and done. There's so much for your rebuild. The whole team's, you lose all program value at that point, right? If you outwardly show your players that you're willing to waste one of the years that they have, that's tough. That's how you create really bad culture.

And ironically enough, I think that's one of the reasons that teams stick with the quarterback because they're afraid that their players will say, what are you doing? We can win with this guy. You're going to replace him and risk my future. So I think it comes from both directions here, which is really interesting. But I think with Detroit, it's not that complicated. They get a ton of assets. And it really does show the timeline that they're on. And the fact that Brad Holmes and Dan Campbell, who obviously has a six-year contract,

these two first-round picks are coming in 2022 and 2022 and 23, they're going to have a long time to do this. And I think that's correct. I think they should have a long time to do this. And I think really trying to tear this thing down, start from the bottom, rip it down to the screws, makes total sense. So I think that, you know, whether they think Jared Gawf, as the quarterback of the future, I can understand how this setup works for where the lions want to go.

So let's get to the Rams side of this because there is a lot to dig into here. So at the very, I mean, we've talked about this a little bit, but on a very simple level, why would the Rams do this? Because they think that Matthew Stafford gives them a chance to compete for a Super Bowl. They're looking at the landscape of it all. And they think the difference between Matthew Stafford and Jared Goff is such that it can take us where we want to go. And whether you agree with that or don't agree with that,

I think that is the prevailing wisdom for why they would do this, because they understand their window is pretty tight with the other commitments that they've made. And this is just another step in that. You talked about that a little bit on Twitter earlier today, where you kind of said they had already crossed the Rubicon with these decisions, and this is just the next one. What did you mean by that?

Yeah, the die has been cast. I think once they made that Ramsey trade, this entire organization, it goes, okay, we're all in, whether this window is one, two, three, or four years, this is it. Like, and then we're going to have to retool and go from here. I think what's that Ramsey trade happened? They're like, yeah, screw team building, screw any conventional means of team building. This is our window and this is what we're doing. But even the Cook's trade, they gave up a first round pick. They clearly think about them in a different way than other franchises do. We can talk about that in a second, but continue. Yeah, I think, I think their, their whole thing is like we want these good tangible players under our like we know what they are

okay screw trying to figure out developing them is it we i think they like our team that just says let's stop wasting mental energy on it which is focus on other stuff um i think that's kind of what they do it's i i think they as soon as they made that trade they just go this is how we are building our team i i've talked about countless times there's a million ways to skin a cat and and how to score points or how to stop an offense or something like that in the nifl how to how to how to a good scheme. There's so many ways to do it. Same with team building. There's not only any one right way. Yeah, in a perfect world, I would do it just how I do in Madden, accumulate 21st round picks, be $30 million under the cap every single year and win a Super Bowl, go undefeated every single year.

Yeah, it doesn't work like that. Stuff happens. Circumstances change. A player on another team is unhappy. A generational, and I'm going to call him that, a generational cornerback is on the market, a corner, a legit lockdown corner is on the market. Yeah, he's worth those picks. Like, that's how they like to think about it in that way. So when I said they crossed the Rubicon at that point, it's just that they're saying, this is what we are. This is how we're going to build this team. We are going to have our stars on defense. We're going to get good at quarterback and have a tangible starter that can do some stuff off platform and do all that stuff. But I think in the NFL, I think the Rams more to any other team have realized. And I'm not saying, again, this is not

the perfect way. There's a million ways it's skin a cat. This is not the perfect way. This is just what they are doing. They are saying there's so much coaching turnover that. happens every one or two years. Rams are the biggest case of that. There's so much player movement. Draft picks are shots in the dark anyways. Let's just use these as weapons and as assets. Rather than looking at it as a first rounder that could be a star, like what's the hidden

mystery box? They're just like, no, that's an asset. This is, it's worth this much and it's going to let us do this with it. That's how they look at it. I think, yeah, in a perfect world, you accumulate all those draft picks. And you get no title belt, though. This is what I'll say. This is a little bit old man in me is you don't get a title.

title belt for having the most cap space. You don't get the title belt for having the most draft picks. You don't. The goal of this is to win the Super Bowl. And yeah, in a perfect way, all those accumulating draft picks and having cap space is giving you ways to pivot to when you finally do have to pivot and go, okay, our windows open now. Let's go. Like that is what you're accumulating all those for. A draft pick has to turn into something. Like it does. It does. It has to turn into something, good or bad. But at one point, you have to pay it. Like, you have to make a pick at some point. You have to turn your card into Roger Goodell and he announces it and everyone boos him. That's what happens. But until that point, it's, you know, like, that's what they're looking at it.

Is they're just looking at this is value? This is how we're going to get our job done and this is how we're going to do it. This is how we're going to build our program for better for worse. We're going to, we're going to get stars at two of the hardest positions to get stars at corner and defense alignment. They had the, shoot, 20th. They had the 10th offense by DVOA last year, fourth in the run game. and 20th in the passing game. So the fact that they were borderline top 10 offense, literally number 10 in DVOA with 20th best offense. And meanwhile, the Lions were 15th in passing DVA with Stafford and whatever the hell they're going on over there. And nobody else.

A couple solid receivers. Yeah, they're hurt. Hockinson, whatever. And Amadola's corpse, you know. So they had that. So that's already an upgrade right there at quarterback. So I think that's what they're betting on. They're like, hey, we're just going to get these spots.

Hey, this is what we have. And we're going from here. I think they say we, this is our window. We have one to two years to get it. We're going to win the Super Bowl and then we're going to deal with everything else that comes from it. That's a problem for future Sean McVeigh and Future to Less Need is how they're thinking about this. That's what they're doing. They're just saying, we'll deal with it in a couple of years.

It's like paying a credit card. Like, you know, you bought that $1,300 laptop. You're like, okay, I'll pay. Yeah, yeah, I'll deal with it in a couple months from now. That's when you go to buy a house and they're like, no, thank you. That's not going to happen for you. That's the problem. Really?

Really? That's what happens? No. I just, I think there's a benefit to, I'm going to just get this one last thought off, is I think there's a benefit too of knowing what your hand is, of knowing, rather than deciding, man, do we trade these picks? Do is that guy good enough? It's going, this is what we got. All right, let's go from here. I think there is some benefit to it. I made the joke that they just want to expend the mental energy on first round picks. I think there's some of that too and how they build a team. They go, we got these stars. We don't have these picks. All right, but how do we get creative? How do we operate now? As opposed to. figure out where they're going to pivot. They already pivoted. This is what they went down. This is the path they're going down. And let's see if it works. They clearly value first round picks differently than other franchises around the league. And they value the certainty. And I think in some ways, that has been an inefficiency for teams. By paying for that certainty and getting

something where you know what this player is, there is value in that. And that's what they've done. They went out and they said, and this is kind of the thought with the Stafford thing, their core is it's Aaron Donald, Jalen Ramsey, Cooper Cup, Robert Woods, and now Matthew Stafford. That's it. That is what the core of the roster is. A lot of those guys are getting a little bit older.

You know, Aaron Donald's going to be 30. He'll be 30 when next season starts. Yeah, right? It's surprising. But he's been in the league for a long time. He's 30 years old. Cup is going to be 28 when next season starts.

Woods is going to be 29. Whitworth might be his last year. Havenstein is still there, but the interior of their offensive line, those guys are free agents before 2020. They're going to be decisions that are made. So almost the same way that they've built their defense around these two independent universes up front and in the secondary with all the other things rotating around them. That's how they've built the entire roster.

We have these five pillars and we're just going to try to fill in the margins around that. That's extremely difficult because now the only, Enforce reinforcements, the cavalry is Matthew Stafford. You have ensured that you don't have high level assets to improve your team outside of what you've already done. The big swings that you've taken, you've already taken. There are no more big swings. It's going to be hitting on guys like Jordan Fuller consistently. It's going to be getting free agents like Leonard Floyd consistently.

Can they do that? Absolutely. Is it really fucking hard? Yeah. It's really, really hard to do it this way. And that's why, you know, I said earlier today online, I was like, it's a risk to do this. Because even if you're talking yourself into the idea of, oh, well, we're going to be picking in the 20s. So why does it matter if we're trading our first round picks away?

Okay. Matthew Stafford's 33 years old. He's been healthy recently, but he missed half of the 2019 season. Let's say you get eight games from John Wolford next year. And Aaron Donald, who's now about to be 30, gets hurt. You're those two, when you're this top heavy, you're those two injuries away from being 5 and 11 and giving away a top 10 pick. Is it probably worth the risk? Yes, but it's still inherently risky. There's no denying that. They're walking a tightrope here.

There is a very good chance, but obviously they've raised their ceiling with Stafford, right? That's the argument. But you have drastically lowered your floor. And as long, in 2022, 2022, 23, as long as you're okay with that calculus, then that's fine. But you have to, you can't just sit there. So many people have said today, oh, well, they'll be picking in the 20s. It'll be fine.

That's not how any of this works. That's not the rationalization. Your rationalization for this has to be if it goes wrong and this goes down in flames, we're fine with it. And if that's okay and that's what we're dealing with, more power to you. But don't try to act like this is safer because you're the Rams. That doesn't prevent you from anything. They gave out the golf contract.

They gave out the girly contract. there is no grand design here. They've just been willing to spend out the nose more than other teams have been, and that's why they're willing to keep on marching with this approach. Yeah, it's a bit of a little bit of Robin Peter to pay Paul what they've done. Yes. They just kept doing it, kept doing it a little bit. Yeah, it has some Ponzi scheme a little bit to it.

But it's, it's, it's, how would they decided? It's what they decided to do. It's, it's, it's just, it's hard. Like you just really really really really hard to do it this way. It's a stars and scrubs to the max. And I think it's one of those things that I think it's worth it for them. I really do. I just think it's is the ideal way?

No, but it's yeah, I just think, but going from watching Stafford. Okay, this kind of brought the light to me and maybe seeing the vision watching a couple of games this morning to really, because I try to avoid watching as much Lions film this year as I could. Watching a couple of the games this year. I really love watching them last year though. 2019 Lions film. Oh, by the way.

Six weeks were awesome. Yeah. By the way, that's what they're seeing. If you're making this deal, if you're the Rams, you're thinking of first half of the 2019 season. Yes. Where you're watching the shots off play action that he had never really taken earlier in his career. That was the first time we had seen him in a play action heavy vertical offense. And God damn did it look good.

And I promise you that what he looked like, that's eight games carries more weight for the Rams making this decision than several entire seasons he had had previous to that. I would almost promise you that. Yeah, I think McVeigh got tired of having to scheme everything up perfect. You brought up the point that Jordan Palmer quote that there's never going to be a number one pick like golf that can't create, you know, can't ad-lib things all the time. And I think McVeigh, more than anything, it's like, okay, when everyone, when that number one, because a lot of, the Shanahan-Cubiac offenses is, they're great on first and second down. They are building on first and second down to say that we're either going to keep churning first downs and limit. We're only going to get eight or third, eight or ten third down attempts the whole game because our first and second down is so good. We can stay away from third and long situation.

So their third down stuff's a little eh. But seeing what McVeigh likes to do on third down, it's got a lot of one and done reads. We are designing this play for this guy to get open, usually Cooper Cup, this guy to get open and get the first down or like, or it's done. Like, oh, shoot. Like if you're wrong, you're wrong. Or what if something happens, something happens. Stafford gives you the ability to ad lib, the ability to that's required in this day and age. It's almost like how the evolution of, you know, he can throw off platform.

He can throw, I tweeted one this morning. He steps up in a pocket, throws this little almost one submarine throw, 20 yards right, right there dig hits it first down. That's what he can do. it's like the evolution of point guards in NBA. Point guards used to just be pass first, Stockton, you know, those, those types. So, you know, a point guard that could score was like a new thing. Like Isaiah Thomas, like being able to do both was like, oh, wow, or tiny archball or something like that. But then all of a sudden when now in this day and age, it's Russell Westbrooks, it's John Walls.

It's even Steph Curry's. It's like, you have to score and create. You have to be able to do both. You need to be a creator and to be able to do both. Either create stuff with your legs, not just scrambling it down the field. It's throwing off platform and changing. okay the one in done reads to one ad lib okay create a play and i mean mohomes is the extreme component of that but errin rogers all these guys herberts like these guys that's what you have

to do in this day and age defenses are just too good you're not able to progress as you used to be able to i'm excited to see the tweaks that mcbay might throw in like you know having this like just what do you feel like you can do now yeah like we saw we saw a different quarterback we saw Wolford in there for one week starting already a little some differences you know some of the dropback stuff was the same but they're doing the you know they're not going to be doing the QB run stuff like they did with Wolford with Stafford but I mean I want to just see do they unlock some of that arm talent is all those intermediate throws that they would love with golf because as golf throw some nice seam balls and overballs is oh are we going to be whipping this ball are we pushing those

at 25 yards 28 yards are we throwing some more digs in there we throw on some more comebacks in there because now we got this like you said arm talent it might not be the most best quarterback, but still got an arm on them. So I'm curious with that. It's like, it's, it's, it's, it's the evil dead comparison that we had with freaking, um, uh, to a Fitz, Fitzpatrick. It's going from evil dead to evil dead to, is it the same thing, but better? Or is it going to be like a better sequel? Like, is it going to be like the dark night or is it going to be like Thor Ragnarok or Terminator 2? Like, no, seriously, like this, I'm just thinking of this now. Like, is it going to be a better, like, take the original ideas and then just with the sequel going like,

yeah, you like the original. but check this shit out, like once they get Stafford in there. Like, is it going to be like that or is it just going to be a different tweak of the same thing? That's what I want to see. Is this going to be dark night or is this going to be like Batman begins? You know, or, you know, anything like that, Terminator and Terminator 2 Judgment Day. Like, I'm curious to see that. Also, one quick last note on this is Stafford's going to be a lot happier having actual sound protection schemes

because that is something I've noticed the last couple of years with the Lions is how many pressures that they screw up, either from the old line play or the runoffback's missing somebody. So I'm sure Stafford, and I don't think they would have him do any of it. So I'm curious now that he doesn't have to worry about it because McVeigh is going to be, they do a lot better job in L.A., at least identifying protections. So if you look at the money associated with this, they now have $41 million in cap space dedicated to their quarterback when you think of the $22 million hit for Gough and then Staffert's contract. It's only $7 million more than they would have paid golf this year.

So in terms of the finances this year, it's a wash. You're not worried about that at all. The only thing I would say is in regards to 2021, though, beyond the future resources, you gave away everything. I think that people have to be cautious about saying, we're adding Matthew Stafford to the 2020 Rams. Because that's not how this works, right? You had the best defense in the NFL last season. You just lost your defensive coordinator, who I think is a very, very good coach and put those guys in positions to succeed.

You lost your cornerbacks coach who coached up one of the best position groups in the NFL over the last couple years. He's now ironically in Detroit on that staff. You also just normal defensive regression. Even if you didn't lose the coordinator, even if you didn't lose a couple players, guys like John Johnson and Darius Williams

weren't free agents, there's probably going to be some regression. So it's almost as if Matthew Stafford and adding him, having him make up for that regression is almost more important than him putting you over the top. So I just think these are things to take into consideration. You can't just say we got to the divisional round.

Let's swap out Matthew Stafford for Jared Gough. That's not how this works. But I also think the Rams understand that, and that's why they're thinking is commendable. They're not just resting on their laurels and saying, a couple of things go differently here and there, we take this big step forward. But I think that's something, so that's for this year.

But when you look at it long term, it's similar to something we were talking about before, for you have to understand now that the only upgrade you can really make is Matthew Stafford over Jared Goff. That's it. There aren't going to be these resources to add other players. When you are looking at 2022 and 2023, it's going to be hard to bulk up the rest of this roster. You're going to be sitting here with what you have now, and that now has to be good enough.

The upgrade you just made a quarterback has to be the thing that takes you over the top because you don't have a lot of other ways to get you there. And that's going to be a question with this personnel on this team. Because they have that core of players, but they still need things. Again, John Johnson is a free agent. They are going to have to do some things in the secondary. They still need speed on that offense. I understand that Goff really had a lot of trouble throwing the ball downfield.

I think he was in the bottom five in both yards per attempt and completion percentage on throws of 20 plus air yards over the last two years. But they don't have a guy that does that. They're going to need some speed. So there are different, it's not as simple as we put Jared or Matthew Stafford on this team. We're going to the Super Bowl now. They need other things still. And they're going to have trouble finding those other things because of the limited resources they now have.

Yeah. It's, yeah, the same issue of the weapon there is going to be the issue. And that's also I talked about the McVeigh, Shanahan, Kubiak offenses, sometimes they're limited on third down and their designs. And so that's why I'm so curious to see is that is that just because. that's what they had with golf and everything. And or is that because of what they were asked to do? Like is that just like that's what they preferred to do? And so that's something I've always been curious to see is that like was that just because

they had shop and all that. And really the only big glimpse that we had into it was 2015 and 16 with the Falcons with Matt Ryan and Calshanahan. And that was like the one time we saw maybe a good quarterback really churning in the system. So Rogers. Rogers too. They've veered further off of it then. Yeah.

They're such their own thing. They're just such their own, God, they're the Frankenstein's monster of offense. Like, they really are. I just always make that joke. But that's informed by their quarterback, I think. I think that they're the Frankenstein's monster because of what their quarterback can do. And same with Matt Ryan when he went with the Falcons 2016.

Exactly. How far away you get from the bones of this offense, I think is often dictated by how much you trust your quarterback and what he can do. So we might see something similar with the Rams here. So I think that that's really important to take into consideration. The other thing, we have a couple more things here I want to hit. This is another reminder that if you want the salary cap to not exist, you can have it not exist.

And I understand that the cap is real and it does have impact. That's why they couldn't just cut Jared Goff and had to give up a first round pick because the cap is real. But this is just another reminder that if you're willing to exploit the inefficiencies associated with the salary cap, you can. If there's money in the banana stand, you can do whatever you want. And that's where the Rams are. So the Rams are $20 million over the cap right now with all of these free agents they have

and without Stafford's contract, right? So what are they going to do? They can probably renegotiate an extension with Stafford to get his 2021 cap number down. That might be possible. They also, and this is, I guarantee you by design, have these massive base salaries for guys. Donald's is 19.8 million and I think Ramsey's is like 17.5 and Goffs was 25.

And when you have those, you can just borrow from the bank of Aaron Donald if you want to. If they want to convert $18 million Donald's base salary into a signing bonus, they can and just spend the cash and spread it out. They're kicking the can down the road. And guess what?

At this point, it behooves them to keep kicking the can down the road. So that's what they've done. They've essentially looked at the parameters and the restrictions associated with resources in the NFL and tried to squeeze every last drop out of them in a way that not even the Saints have. Not even the Saints have been this willing to depart with draft picks for certainty. The Rams are living at the furthest extreme edge of the spectrum that you possibly can when it comes to how they view their resources. And the last thing I'll say here, before we kind of go to the big picture takeaways, is I commend them for it.

I don't know if it's going to work out, but I think that a lot of teams are willing to make the playoffs and print some money and say, we're not irrelevant, that's enough. And the Rams are sitting here and they're saying, yes, there's inherent risk in what we're doing. And I don't know if it's right or wrong, but I do think that they should be commended for the aggression that they're showing. If the goal of this is to win championships, I think a move like this gives the current version of the Rams, both their roster construction and their leadership,

the best chance to win a championship in the short term. And I think that we should celebrate that in some way, even if there is a chance it goes so far off the rails that this team is completely bottomed out in two years. But guess what? If that's the case, less needs gone anyway. And I can understand why you'd want to do it this way.

Yeah, it's, they saw that why I brought up the DVOA staff for their offense this year is because like they were maxed out. Like that as much McVe can do was this offense this year. And that was 10th best in the league. Fourth best rushing, 20th best passing. They were maxed the F out. So that's, I commend them just as you do. I'm all four swinging for defenses. We want to knock coaches being cowards.

We want to knock them for not taking chances. We want to knock this guy for not doing that. I'm not going to talk out both sides of my mouth. And then also when someone does swing for defenses and just go, oh man, why would they do that? I would never do that. I don't need to accumulate picks.

What are they doing? Draft picks are gold. What are they doing? They're getting where with that. But it's like, no, I know. They know what they are. They know the situation that they're in. They go, screw it.

This is our best path. Win a Super Bowl. Let's do it. I understand why they're doing it. I don't know if it's a good idea. Those are two different things. I wouldn't want to do it. I understand why they're doing it.

But if you're trying to be good every year, year after year, there is a ton of risk associated with this. And I think the biggest risk of all, the number one person now with the most at stake in this entire calculus is Sean McVeigh. Because now it's over. There is no more excuses. He got to sign the running back that he eventually didn't want. He signed a quarterback he eventually didn't want.

They took on tons and tons record amounts of dead money for all these contracts they gave out that he absolutely signed off on. And now they just traded away two more future first. round picks and a third round pick to bury the body of the quarterback that he already had and now to go get the one that he wants. It's over now. There is no more, I need this, I need that. This is the, we are, everything is on the table. This is it. It is time. If they can't do it now, then I think that it's time to say maybe Sean McVadest isn't good enough because they have given him everything he could possibly want. I think he's a great coach. I think he has gotten a ton out of that

offense, but this is a huge, huge moment for him because this is it. There is nothing else to explain away after this series of moves. I think, yeah, I think there, I think to him and his line of thinking is I worked my ass off. We did all this and we were barely 10 and 6 and barely made the playoffs and, you know, where there's seven teams that make the playoffs now. And, you know, and we won one playoff game and it was, you know, how to work our asses for all for that. And there's a lot of wins this year.

We got blown out in Miami. We lost the jets. And I think he was just like, you know what? Screw that. Screw where I have to be perfect. I want to lift everything with a quarterback that can let take a little weight off me to do some things and maybe just create a little bit more. But you know what, screw it. There's so much parody in the NFL, like you said, I think that some of the goals is always, oh, let's make the dance.

You know, we're in the dance. We want a playoff game. Okay, we're good. You know, we're good. The ultimate goal is to win the Super Bowl. Screw it. I would not, this would not be my, my first or second or third option of how. to build a team and how to win a Super Bowl.

But you know what? Screw it. This is the, this is the path they took. The Rams did a Sneed, McVeigh, that entire organization. This is the path they took. And they committed to the path. My best advice I can usually, I'm not great with advice because I just always have too

many thoughts going on. I can never get out. I'm a terrible storyteller. I can never get out with exactly what I'm trying to say. But usually my best advice I can ever give and not just some football and stuff is just lean into it. Know what you're good at and just let it break. And that way you also own it.

You also know. know what your weaknesses are. When you know what your strengths are, then you naturally know what your weaknesses are. The Rams know what they're at. They know what position they're in. They know they have to win this year and next year, like, or this year, more or less. But it's like, you know, this is our window. There's no, I think they've got a couple of years, right? Yeah, we'll see what happens with Whitworth. Yeah. But outside of Whitworth, they've got a couple years. Yeah. But the margins are very slim and it's hard to thread the needles that they're going to have to thread. It's easy to say, well, we found Jordan Fuller in the sixth round. There aren't many Jordan Fuller's around. As much faith as you

have and your scouting staff and your coaching staff, everything else. This is a high wire act they're trying to pull off. And speaking of the Super Bowl, the last thing I'll say, I think that the Super Bowl informs this because you're looking at two teams that had their quarterback as the last piece. We trust our infrastructure. All we need is the guy to take us over the top. It's the reason the chiefs drafted Mahomes, even though they had Alex Smith. It's the reason that the Bucks went out and they went out and got a guy like Tom Brady.

we've seen what those two situations were before they found the guy, and they weren't Super Bowl caliber teams. That one change was enough. All we needed was a better guy at plan point for us to get us to the brink of a title. And I promise you that if Mahomes doesn't exist or what's happened with the Bucks didn't happen this year, I don't think the Rams are thinking about this in the exact same way. With the Chiefs is they saw how far they can get with Alex Smith. I think the same thing with the Rams were in,

just like you just said. They saw what their cap was. You know what? Andy Reid, we all considered a good coach, but only thing a couple people could tell you, oh yeah, they went to four straight conference championship games.

They went to one Super Bowl, but they lost it. And they, okay, but then when he got to Kansas City, he was like, oh, yeah, he's a good coach,

he's going to do good, does some fun scheme stuff. But guess what? They get my homes. They do what everyone's trying to do and win the Super Bowl. Now it's Andy Reed. Like now it's your weight carries different.

It's Super Bowl winning head coach Andy Reed. Okay, that's what all these guys' goals are. It's not to make the final four, three straight times. That's great. That's great. Harbaugh did that.

He's at Michigan now. Like that's, that's what these guys are trying to win. So this, this is their window and they're going to go for it. And I'm all for it. You know, he wins winning Kansas City once they get my homes.

Now it's Andy Frickin' Reed. And it's, that's the difference of winning a championship besides being just a good team for a while. Good team for a while is fun where a couple of us know about it. Or, you know, there might be people in 20 years podcasting about it. a couple of people posting clips about how much fun those McVe teams were, wow, they really changed the league.

You know, but it's like, if you don't win the Super Bowl, they don't, the normal fan doesn't talk about you. The person that doesn't know anything about sports doesn't talk about you. That's what winning a Super Bowl does. And a lot of these guys care about their legacy. So that's why winning a Super Bowl, go for it. Lean into it. Go for it, Rams.

I wouldn't do it this way, but go for it. Let's do it. Sean McFay has staked his reputation and possibly his career on this deal for Matthew Stafford and more power to him. It makes the Rams a fascinating team. It makes them must watch from day one of next season. And I think in 2021, it undeniably makes them better. Whether the tradeoff is going to be worth it because of what happens after that,

there's no way to know. But they made a push and similar as a continuation of a push they've been making for years that very few teams in the NFL are willing to. And I think that that is a commentary on how we view picks, how we view windows, how you view quarterback situations, how you view how much infrastructure matters, all of this. That's why this trade is fascinating. It's why it touches pretty much every single corner of the league.

And it's why we just spend an hour and 10 minutes talking about it. Okay, so now we're talking about scheme stuff for the next hour. All right. That's all we got for today. I am very excited about what we have coming to you guys for the rest of the week. Tomorrow is going to be, tomorrow as in Tuesday is going to be me and Shiocapati, you're talking about some of the analytics associated with the league. We're going to have our team right or associated with the Super Bowl.

We're going to have our team writers on the following day to kind of talk about how we got here. Lindsay and I are going back later in the week. And then you and I are going deep on Friday with the ins and outs of this game. And I'm still working on timing, but we're going to have a couple special guests that have really good insights into these two teams at least a couple different times throughout this week. So please come back tomorrow. Please come check it out. We appreciate you listening today. please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice.

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