The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Monday Mailbag: Roster decisions and culture, the next level for Justin Herbert, the Daniel Jones balancing act, and more

Episode Date: June 5, 2023

Robert Mays and Nate Tice open up the mailbag on this episode of The Athletic Football Show. The guys discuss how teams make hard decisions while building and maintaining culture, what they want to see from Justin Herbert this year, the bed the Giants have made with Daniel Jones' contract, and more.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Nate on Twitter: @Nate_TiceSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Join me today. It's my good friend Nate Tyson. How you doing, buddy? Doing well. Mailbag.

I feel like I have the same intro every time, even though it's rambly in a different way, and a different light. It's a different seasoning on each ramble. But I am excited for all these mailback questions because we've talked about this. I love it because it gets me thinking about stuff I don't think about. Or jogging. to my brain that's like working out a muscle. Like we're like, oh, oh, like a stabilizer muscle where it's like, oh, I haven't done that

in a while. And so it's fun. So I really appreciate the questions everyone sends in. I'm always excited to do these. So really excited for this next hour or so. Thank you to everyone again that sent them in. Thank you for helping us kind of populate the feed in the offseason with interesting stuff and, you know, continuing to supply us with topics that get the juices flowing and make

us think about certain things. And I've said this a million times. We do this because the questions are worth answering, worth responsible. to and because how engaged you guys are with the stuff that we're doing over here. So thank you again. Let's roll right into it. Our first one here, Antonio Vias says, the NFL has become a more analytically driven and smarter league.

And it seems, with the exception of a few teams, most GMs make decisions in line with that mindset. This inevitably leads to decisions fans may be upset about, e.g. not resigning a player at a high-end deal because the player plays a less valuable position. But GMs and coaches constantly talk about creating a good culture. I struggle with understanding how a team can create a good culture, but also be someone heartless in decision making. How do teams balance these ideas? Establishing culture versus making sound decisions or are they mutually exclusive? Tyler D. asked a somewhat similar question just about how you balance locker room dynamics and whether players are looking at who's getting extended,

who's getting cut, all that kind of stuff. This is a great question because I think this is underrated and overlooked in a lot of decisions that fans and outside people make because we don't have to take these things into consideration. But I do think that they matter. And I do think that they matter. think that they're important. So how would you answer this question? First and foremost, I think anything with a team at any sport is honesty and communication. It's, well, first and foremost, even if you're just talking game plan, just talking about what a player's role is going to be in that game plan. Sometimes it's just, hey, no shit, Aaron Donald, go do you. But sometimes you have to speak to a role player like, hey, you know, this younger guy that we drafted, we're going to give

him some more reps. So, you know, you might have some playing time cut out. But be ready. You know, you might never know. But that's just game plan. And then also offseason plans. Sometimes it's, hey, working with the guy. This is talking from coaching and even personnel execs. What we expect from you from this off season, what we expect your role to be next year. Or even like, hey, we might attack this position in the draft and you might have to mentor a young guy and communicate that. Alex Smith had a great point talking about when they drafted Patrick Mahomes.

He was involved in the process where he was, they talked to him. They go, hey, this is what we're thinking about doing. We're thinking about moving up for this guy, yada, yada, yada. So just honesty and communication and it's it's a business. And I think sometimes, you know, Victor's write history. You know, they hold the pen of history. So of course, a lot of people in the powers that be go, oh, it's a business, whatever, wave it away. Not like that's a way kind of like a cold, dark comedy, black comedy way to go about it.

But we're all professionals and I think there's an acceptance of that in the NFL level. So I think it's more just that communication as well as like talking to a player face to face. Hey, we're releasing you. We're going to talk to your agent. this is what you're going to do. This is what the teams. We really think you have another shot in this league.

We'll talk to teams if you have to, if anything comes up. So I think that's really what it comes down to is communicating, treating people like people. As opposed, yes, you can in a meeting talk about guys as data points, as stats or, hey, this is an aging vet. You can broad brush them. But when you're talking to the player and communicating, being honest with them. Also, the last thing, just talking from a coaching and building culture and everything, having those position coaches that are invested in the guy's development that really speaks to culture. And I think that's really where you build up a lot of goodwill with position coaches or coordinators and everything.

So I think just being a pro, being a professional, being open and honest with players and agents and also with coaches as well if you have to fire them. I think that all goes a long way. And sometimes you have to have a hard conversations, but I think people are respected in the long run. I think it's important for, I think all of that makes total sense. And I think there's an importance on not having to win every deal. You don't have to win every contract with every player. And I think there is value in being able to point to specific players in your locker room and say, this is what we want out of players in this organization.

If a guy plays well and he kind of embodies where you want to go and who you want in your building and then he's not rewarded, I think you're going to have other young guys in the building look at an example like that and be like, well, they're not going to pay him. Like, isn't he, he's one of the best players on the team. He's one of the guys who kind of exemplifies what they talk about all the time. Very good example to me is like Nick Chub, right? So Nick Chubb gets paid by an analytically forward organization in the Cleveland Browns, and they pay a running back big money.

Nick Chub is everything you would want in a football player. He comes to work every single day. He's an incredibly hard worker. He's a great presence. And like, you should reward guys like that. And another good example for me is the conversation around Justin Fields coming into this year's draft and people being like, well, you just draft a guy with the number one overall pick and cut the guy loose. Like you have the number one overall pick. People in that locker room seem to really like Justin Fields.

And I asked players this because I was curious. I was like, do you guys, if you were on that team and they just moved on for someone else after the way that Justin Fields played last year and the toughness that he showed, all of that, would you think that that is kind of a point against the cold? in that building. And I got multiple yeses because look at what he had to go through last season. You kick that guy to the curb. What kind of message does that send to everything else that you're trying to build? You give yourself practical outs, right? Like you give yourself resources and flexibility moving forward.

If he's not the guy, then hopefully you have backup plans. But I think that's one of the, when I've said several times, you owe it to yourself to see this through. That's what I mean. Like you owe it to the building and to him and everything else to see it through. So I think that there are, again, to me it's about not having to win every single deal. Not every single deal has to be this cold calculated thing where you're squeezing every ounce of value that you can out of what's on a spreadsheet. There are different ways to consider some of the ramifications down the road that go outside of what those numbers look like.

And even when you try to win every move or trade or everything, you sometimes lose it or sometimes it wasn't the best decision. So I think just accepting, hey, if we nailed eight of these 10 moves, hey, who cares of her paying? some vet that we know that he's on his last legs and he might not be able to there. But guess what? This guy's played hard for us for six years or seven years and we like his presence in the locker room. What the Eagles have done with all those guys in the defensive line? Fletcher Cox, Brandon Graham. They're a really good example where they do so many things where they get a ton of value out of people.

But they're still trying to balance that. Who are the right people to have in the locker room as we're trying to continue sustaining this thing? Sports is a people business. And it doesn't matter what aspect of it. It's coaches, personnel, players, agents, us in the media. Like, it is a people first business. And I think that's why you can't just treat everyone like cannon fodder. You have to treat them like people and treat like what the respect level that these humans deserve,

what they give to you. They give you a ton of effort. Even just rewarding them with small things, making sure they get the first class seats, you know, making sure they get the snacks, just small things like that. That goes a long way. these are people that are putting their livelihood on the line for other people, for your livelihood. So I think that's just something that I think we're like a team. I'm glad you brought the Eagles.

Any team that are rewards that I like that when teams to kind of do that. And or they can be in a position to do that. So it goes a long way. And people talk and people talk. And people, if they treat you like crap, after a while, they'll go, don't go there. They'll cut you in three weeks. They don't care. They'll sign you to a two-year deal and cut you.

And they'll tell you, they'll give you a bunch of playing time. They won't give it to you. Players talk. So that also has a big component of this as well. The last thing about the Eagles is I remember Howie Rosen telling me once a couple years ago, we were talking about the dream team Eagles and about the lessons he learned from that and about how rewarding the guys in your own building. And when he got the job again, look at what he did immediately after he took over from Chip Kelly.

We joke all the time about the Chip Kelly guys that he ejected from the building and like in the Key Colanzo Byron Maxwell trade. But immediately they signed his accuracy to an extension. They signed Lane Johnson to an extension because it's like, all right, we're going to reward the guys in the building because that's something that I've learned. If you reward your guys, the ones that you drafted that have been there, rather than trying to make your highest paid players, players that you get from outside the building and free agency, that stuff matters.

Like, that is absolutely a good way to kind of maintain a culture as you move forward. So I forgot about that, but I think that's a really good example. All right. Tim Knowles says, I like to hear your thoughts on how to take my ability to watch and understand a game to the next level. But that would be my current understanding is mostly limited to the obvious, like recognizing a big play. Rugby is my sport, which probably explains why I love a good running back, and nothing gets my heart racing more than Chubb, CMC, Henry, breaking through a gap and making

a ton of yards. It's what gets every rugby fan on their feet, a gap being exploited, and a player making a clean break. But what I don't see or know what to look for are the other things. A fairly common occurrence in rugby is a commentator saying that such and such is a blindside flanker has had an excellent game because they've excelled at the unseen things. Could you recommend say three to five things I could pay attention to during game to see better to make my understanding of how it's going and who is playing well better please include jurg and explainers we get a lot of questions like this so i i figure this is a good kind of opportunity for you to just give people like a few things when they're watching a game that might be helpful uh it's it's it's

it's this is fun for me because i have been spoiled i've been around it and i kind of watched the game in a unique way just because of just exposure especially being a quality control coach has really that really it's a lot of reps of going like this means this this means this means this So I'm trying to kind of just, this is a great question because I never really thought about explaining to somebody that truly is like, hey, what, what do you watch? So I would say for first for offense, and this is going to sound weird, but I think this does help. It helps you realize what comes with what. Just check out the formations. Yeah.

And I know that that would be the first thing is when the quarterback is personnel, when the quarterback's in shotgun. Okay. If they're in a unique formation, it can be overwhelming at first. I get it. But when you learn to bucket these things, that really helps you kind of. a guy to, oh, when they're in this kind of thing, this formation, they run these plays. And you might not know what the plays are at first, but you kind of, you see familiar patterns. Even a unique formation like bunch, which is, you know, three players all, all grouped together,

point man and two guys behind them. That is a bunch formation. We called it tribe under Paul Chris, because T-words were three by one and tribe is a bunch. So three guys near each other. So that might tip you off that particular plays are going to come from that. And then you start noticing, well, they're in that. They do this. there than that, they do something different. And then you're, oh, okay, that's a change up. If a player goes in motion, maybe check out what he's doing, especially if a receiver is in a short motion, like if he gets into the offensive line, it might be a blocker. That's something I always think is interesting. Then that's where play action stuff comes from as well, short motion with

receiver. So if you see a guy in motion, you know, keep your eyes on him. I think that's a good way to kind of focus your attention. I kind of relax my eyes when I watch football. I kind of like, take, I want it wash over me. So I kind of, that's, that's kind of, it's kind of hard to go into the specifics here, but also watch the offensive line. I think just the initial movement of the offense line. You don't have to watch the whole thing, but are they moving backwards at first? You can kind of feel it after a while, look at their stances.

Are they into two point where they're not, their hands not in the ground? You'll start seeing kind of like a pattern. Like I said, are they moving forward while the ball's getting thrown? Oh, that's an RPO. You start piecing these things together over time. And then for defense, I'd say the number one. thing. This is what most quarterbacks are taught is watch the safeties.

I think the safeties guide you to whatever the defense is and that will guide you to the flow of the play. Is the safety rotating late down? That might be where the blitz is coming from and then you watch the blitz. It's like a waterfall coming down. Are they scooting all the way back and they're off the screen? It's like, ooh, that's a deep coverage that they might be running. So

those are just basic things I'd say on each side of the ball to maybe focus your attention on first and then you can start relaxing your eyes. Like when you stare at a boat, you know, really close, you know, one of those picture kind of things. I think safety is for defense, and if I'm watching offense, I'd watch offense align and formations. Formations personnel was what I would probably look for first before a play. I think focusing on the best players and where they're aligned. Like when you're watching the Packers

were always like this when Devontadams was there. It was like, where is he? Like, where is he when the play starts? And I think that's always a good starting point. I tend to do that a lot with offensive players. I try to watch individual guys pretty often because then I feel like I'm, I am watching something because too often when I'm watching four games at once, if I'm just watching each individual play on an individual screen, sometimes it feels like I'm watching nothing. So when I kind of click my eyes to a different play, it's like, I'm going to watch the

left tackle on this play. And then my thing is the biggest thing, when the play ends in the broadcast view, that's when you can learn the most. because the little secondary replays they show from other angles, especially on big plays, that's where you see what's actually happening. So don't just watch the broadcast view of a play. Make sure that you're sitting there and when they show the replay, that's when you're actually going to learn something. And if you're watching your... Spider-Cam, baby.

It's so important. And honestly, my biggest thing is, if you're watching one game, the rewind button is your friend. Like when they're showing those individual replays, make sure you're trying to see. see it a couple times if you're really trying to understand it. When we watch nationally televised games, so when we're doing like our Thursday night recaps, I watch the game on Amazon Prime and then I have the Prime Vision version of it on my laptop. So I can watch every play twice and then try to watch them multiple times after that.

Like trying to watch an NFL game and processing everything that's happening with one instance of the broadcast view, you're never going to be able to do it. It doesn't matter how smart you are. So I think that that is also important is that a lot of the times when we're doing this, we're seeing each play two or three times before we talk about it. If anyone's watched Twitch streams when I was watching all 22 onto Twitch streams and now I'm scared of getting struck down. But if you ever watch me on those, watch how many times are replay a play.

It's just me going back and back and back. And that's just, that's how everybody watches film. I love your examples of the broadcast. Do it all the time. I'll wait until it drives over. And then I'll just, hey, it's commercial. Which commercial is it? That's exactly what I do it.

I rewatch drives during commercials. Yes. And then it's just, do, do, do, back, back. You know, just, and you get into a rhythm of that. But no, those are, those are, you just need reps. I think everything with it. And it's just, I always say, and I've had people get frustrated me with, like, what do you watch when you watch film? I go, well, I let it wash over me.

I've, I've been exposed to a lot. I know that's not fair and that's not a great answer. But it's you start learning patterns. You start seeing what looks unique. You're like, oh, that looked different. Why do that look different? and then you reverse engineering. And that's where a lot of learning comes from because just the simplest patterns and then the changes off of that.

All right. We got a couple questions about Daniel Jones. Ryan Wendell's, Nick Elmo, essentially asked why we're not optimistic about Daniel Jones, considering the lack of help that he had during his first few years in the week. They were talking about the podcast where we discussed what quarterbacks need to be successful. Offensive weapons, O-line play caller. And if you look at the offensive weapons that the Giants have had over the last few years, they have not been very good. They've had a bottom five offensive line during the majority of his years there.

They drafted two guys in the top 10 over the last several seasons because of the state of that offensive line. It's arguable that Jason Garrett was one of the worst offensive play callers in the league when he was the Giants' head play caller. So after considering all of this, shouldn't we feel more optimistic about Jones and his potential to be a really good quarterback? Since he entered the league, he's arguably had the worst combination of all three things you said a quarterback needed to succeed. another year under Dable Kafka will obviously help. The O-Line appears to be headed in the right direction, and with a leap through Neil and a true young center finally on the roster. The weapons, all note, not great.

At least have a couple guys who are once thought of as promising. So Robert, please tell me we might be wrong about Jones, and he still has a decent chance to be that $40 million player he was just paid to be. He can keep ascending, I guess. I'm not going to like, the improvement he showed last year through the streamlining of the offense. Of course, that's great. I think what has worried me is, you know, we haven't really succeed,

see him succeed when he just has to drop back over and over. Yes. And yes, you could talk about the situation. I'm not, I shouldn't cancel that out. You have to include that into discussion. It's just that because of the situation and what else they had, I've also just had an issue with how long of a processor Jones has been, which is something that he was at Duke as well.

And I haven't, last year was the first time I've seen a little bit of improvement. in that regard, get rid of the ball on time, you know, not trying to make, not making a bad play worse, just going and running and using your legs. You know, if you make a mistake, make it fast. But it's still not perfect. And that was still with an offense that was very streamlined and had some training wheels on it. So in my mind, can he improve? Absolutely.

Especially how hard it is to play QB right now and the improvement he showed. And he's such a good athlete, yada, yada, yada. But just some of the concerns I had him as a prospect and a young player, he hasn't shown he's quite above that yet. And that's maybe where I still have some of that hesitations. He has improved how much more improvement is there to have? And the things that he can improve on, I'm a little hesitant on how much he can. So that's where maybe it's sometimes a little more glass half empty with where Jones can get to.

The processing point is interesting and important. The fact that he has not shown an ability to really do that when given the opportunity. And that's beyond what he has did not do as a thrower last year. Just looking at some of the numbers and what he was asked to do within the office. offense, okay? He was dead last in the NFL and average air yards to the sticks, dead last in the league, okay? On explosive pass plays that traveled 15 plus yards. So you're kind of excluding yak plays in this. You have to make a throw to create an explosive pass play. Daniel Jones was tied for 27th in the NFL last year. He had the same amount as Carson Wetz, who started half the

games. He had the same number as Matt Ryan, who was at the end last season. He had one fewer than Zach Wilson, two fewer than Andy Dalton, four fewer than Justin Fields, who threw like 25 passes last season. They just didn't ask him to do much. So even if you're building in some improvement from what he was at, and that's my main problem here, how many quarterbacks could succeed in this offense could give you something similar to what Daniel Jones gave you last year? He gave you tons of value as a runner, a ton. And that is something that would be difficult for a lot of quarterbacks to replicate. But I think the offense would look different if they had a quarterback with more passing value

and less rushing value. They built this very specifically around him, and it has very real limitations. And with a lot of these other guys we're talking about with young quarterbacks or what you need to put around them to succeed, you have financial flexibility to put things around them because they're young and cheap. So even if you're building in some development from him over the next couple of years, what he needs to be as a quarterback to be worth $40 million a year is significantly more than we've seen so far. So even if you're thinking that he can be better with better pieces around him and that he's still fairly young,

they're paying the sticker price for this. So I think that's why it's a little bit more difficult to get excited about his overall impact on the team and the roster and everything else, even if you're building in some improvements from him as a player with better situation. That's where the disconnect is. It's not that this is the last year of his rookie deal. It's like, no, he already got paid. And you're still, and you're like still hoping to see the development. And just even what he showed with the improvement, and not to rope it in.

But I made this comparison between two players. Like, just look at the year that Justin Fields had. And it's like, you know, there's still question marks on them. You look at their stat lines. They're not that too, they're not far apart from where they've been in their careers. And you're paying Daniel Jones 40 million, though. So that's where it's kind of is. It's like, Fields is two years younger.

on the same trajectory kind of thing. So I don't know. That's where I think the disconnect is, is that he has gotten better, but they streamlined the crap out of that offense. They're making a half-field reads. They're running like five concepts period, which is fine if it works. I don't get me wrong, but when you're paying $40 million, you want to be able to run a little bit more than just five concepts.

And I think that's where it is. Three things can be true at the same time. Daniel Jones can absolutely improve from where he has been over the last couple of years. With more time in the offense and with better players. around him. That absolutely can happen. Absolutely. He can, but at the same time, even if you build that in, you can still think that there wasn't a market for him to the degree that the Giants paid him. If they had asked him to go out and look

for this contract, I doubt he would have got it. That's part of my issue. It's not that the Giants wanted Daniel Jones to be their quarterback. It's that I think they negotiated with themselves a little bit in doing this. I think that could be true. And I think that even if there is some improvement, you're asking a lot of him and you're asking for a huge jump for him to provide value on the contract that he was just given. I don't think Daniel Jones was bad last year. I don't think that he detracted from what the Giants were last year. I think it was the opposite. I think that some of his skills absolutely added and some of his very specific skills added to what the Giants offense was. But I still have doubts about what this version and this price tag associated

what Daniel Jones looks like over the next two to three years. That's it. Yep. Yep. Let's do our first voicemail. Hey Robert. I am probably one of your youngest listeners you've had, as I'm just getting ready to finish my sophomore year in high school, but I've really enjoyed the show the past few years, and I'm a huge charger span, and I was wondering where you think Justin Herbert can take his game next.

Like, I know that you guys absolutely love him, I love him too, but what does he really need to do this next season to just ascend and maybe get some respect? And maybe we talked about it in the same thing as Mahomes or Burrough. Thanks. Have good day. Bye. This is our listener I think named Kate, who has sent me this question a couple

different times. And I appreciate the question because I think we do just talk about Justin Herbert. Like, he's really good for the most part. And I think it's worth kind of asking a question of where he can improve a little bit. And maybe what is separating him from that top, top echelon of quarterback so far, even if we're bullish on him. So what would your answer to this be? First off, learn some medical training.

so his teammates don't get hurt us often, but I would say on field, let it loose. I think that that's really it. Sometimes he could be a little too perfect and maybe too quick to get to his checkdowns, which is something I've seen other quarterbacks, even once I've been around.

Derek Carr has had that issue where he's like, you're doing the right thing and getting to the checkdown, let the play breathe a little bit. Or sometimes crank it up and say, F it and just use your gifts and go. So that's really it. He can get to, I understand last year because the talent wasn't that great around him because all the injuries. But I would say sometimes just let the play breathe, give it another half second.

And then sometimes get into that fourth quarter two minute mode that we see him where he just goes crazy and goes, he goes bonkers. Do that for four quarters. And sometimes try that throw. Try that S to your throw. You can do it. Who cares if you make a mistake. Just try it. So I think that would be like my coaching points for him is be aggressive, be be aggressive.

Yeah, I'm the exact same way. I mean, he was bottom five last year and the number of passes the travel 20 plus yards in the air. And when you think about his skill set and compare it to that sort of approach, that's like how Jimmy G plays. Yeah, it's just it's frustrating to watch sometimes where he's so in tune with trying to get to the right play that he gets there a little bit too quickly. And you have a lot of experience with this because that's how Derek Carr was early in his career. And it could be frustrating because Derek Carr could really sling it. Not like Justin Herbert, but Derek Carr has got a really good arm. So when you watch a guy who has 70% of Justin Herbert's physical gifts play like that,

think about how frustrating it is to watch Justin Herbert play like that sometimes. I know at 6-5, he can literally throw it 80 yards and throw it through a wall. I would love to see like a freaky Friday situation where Josh Allen's brain was in Justin Herbert's body. Like that's what I want to see for like two games. Just because I want him to just play with more confidence. I did too. That's what this is. It's like I want him to play like he's the best player on the field all the time and just be a little bit less safe.

That's like that is my biggest criticism. And part of me is like they should get like some like a psychological coach in there just to be like you, you know how good you are? Do you have any idea like how physically gifted you are? Because I honestly think this is not a joke. I think that's a real thing. He is like a very humble like very kind of just want to be one of the guys guys. and I do think that he could stand to benefit from someone just coming in there and be like, dude, you're a monster.

You are an absolute monster. Just play like that a little bit. Play loose. Have fun. Like, you don't worry about it. The other thing, though, I will say, we have seen several examples over time of how the play caller and the structure of the offense can lead to these sort of condense feeling tight moments from quarterbacks. If you look at Matthew Stafford's average depth of target when, ironically enough, Joe Lombardi was his offensive coordinator in Detroit.

It was so low. It was dead last. It was dead last in the league. We're talking about a guy who has like all-time armed talent. Like one of the best 10 arms we've ever seen, arguably. And he's dinkin and Duncan down the field. And then when they brought in, I think it was Daryl Bevel. When Daryl Bevel got there and they were just running this kind of bigger downfield play action offense, it jumped to the top of the league.

So I think that some of that is just innate to what Justin Herbert is as a player. But I also think that you can help some of that with play calling and also just personnel, which they didn't really do this off season. They didn't really add that field stretcher. But I hope that bringing in a new play caller and kind of the changing the structure of the offense can help that a little bit too. Just a little creativity. That's all I want from that offense. And Kellan Moore runs a lot of traditional NFL concepts.

I like Kellan. But he at least gets, has some Boise State to him. But he has some of that crazy person. and crazy formations and everything that I like. So that's absolutely. It's sometimes the play car is, that's what happens. Remember,

what was that the term we would always use? It feels tight. It feels tight. It feels tight. It feels hard. Everything felt hard. Every four-yard gain felt hard in that offense. Every 10-yard gain felt hard.

So I think just that will help him breathe a little bit. But he needs a flavor, like he does. He just needs, he needs a hype man. He needs to go out there with somebody with a boom-bom-bom, he's like a wrestler with a manager. He needs a Paul Heyman.

Like, he needs someone just to come out and say, This is the voice of the voiceless. You know, like, come on. Like, just really help him out. Like, that's what he truly needs. Because, man, the talent is so there. And I just want to see him let it loose all the time.

Because you see it. Those two minute drills when you see him and you're just like, oh, my God. And he's just, he's just saying effing, making throws left and right, running. Remember the against the chiefs, which game, which it was the awesome Kelsey game. So this was been 2021. Yeah, it was the end of the season. And yeah. When he's stiff arming.

Yeah. He's stiff arming the chief. defender and holding him off as he threw, he big brothered him as he threw the ball. It's like more of that, more of you are the best player on the field, that confidence. So that's what we want to see. He has it. We just don't see it more. All right.

Next one. I really like this question because I hadn't really thought about this. And it's, I think it's important. Eli Hughes says, over the last few years, I've thought about the Packers future at quarterback an unhealthy amount. Me too. For obvious reasons, it seems that whenever the topic comes up in any media, someone feels compelled to say that if love is great, none of the drama surrounding the pick and

fall will matter. While all this is well and good, I've rarely seen anyone talk about the opposite scenario? What if love simply cannot play? Would this misstep lead to the firing of Goud Coot-Kuns from missing a quarterback despite him constructing a solid roster overall? And would that be fair? How do you weigh these two things against one another, considering the Packers traded up for Love when they had a Hall of Fame quarterback on the roster? And is it worse for Love to be full mediocre or to go Zach Wilson? Sorry for asking so many questions about this topic, but I need to get him off my brain so I can worry about the Packers wide receiver room. We'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks,

guys. I just on a broader level, how do we feel about the Jordan love pick now? Like, I haven't really thought about my opinion of it in the last couple years because Rogers was so good. It was just like, but I also kind of understand if it was getting so bad with Rogers in the building and the relationship was deteriorating and they didn't know what he was going to do, don't we give other teams credit for giving themselves out at quarterbacks and giving themselves multiple avenues and shouldn't we give the Packers the same credit? Like even if it's a wasted pick for the last couple years, quote unquote, I think if you really go back and interrogate the thought process, I understand it. Like I don't blame them for thinking that way. Well, and with Rogers essentially threatening to retire more or less

last few off seasons, I mean, they see that every day. We just see the public comments. Exactly. It's not the day-to-day interactions. There might be a lot of interactions every day. where they're like, this guy's going to retire tomorrow. Like, we got to make sure we're not caught with our pants down. Like that's. And also just wants to save you. We have an otherwise good team. We have to make sure that we have with the flexibility here.

Yep. And yeah, I think also the Packers, this is the benefits of not having a one true owner is they can kind of live in La La Land where they can kind of do what they want as far as team building that they don't have the pressure other teams do. It's kind of nice. It's in Green Bay for one. it's a national fan base. I get that, but it's still in Green Bay. There's not that day-to-day media, but also just not that owner to answer for.

So I don't think the GM is going to be under much pressure. I really don't. I think just because of how the Packers are aligned and how they operate business day-to-day. I just think also, too, if you say mediocre, it's like what kind of mediocre, I guess? Like, is that there stretches of good play in there, that he end the season okay.

I know that's a cop-out, but that does matter. He is under contract in 2024. for, but also just like, if he is bad, they kind of sort of found other avenues that they can maybe find the guys. If two first drop picks next year, potentially. Exactly. So they probably get it. If Rogers played 75% of snaps, I think it is.

So it's like, that's probably going to happen. So that they've given up some avenues. So I don't think it's, I understand why they did it as time has gone on, just like you originally answered this question. Like, I really do. And honestly, I just picked them 14th in the QB draft episode. So, uh, I'm tied into some Jordan. stock as well as the Packers are right now.

So I think they just made the best of a iffy situation or kind of a moving ground situation, quicksand, I guess is a good way to put it. He has a $4.4 million cap hit this year and a $7.8 million cap hit next year. The way that they've done it is they've put some dummy years on the end of it just to make it a little bit more palatable. But if he doesn't work out, yeah, you know what? It was the right thought at the moment, but it didn't work out and let's see what else we can do. I don't think he deserves to lose his job if the Jordan nothing doesn't work out. because I think even in the moment, it makes sense why they would want to do it.

And they've given themselves other avenues. To be able to trade Rogers and potentially use that as a way to find your next quarterback if it comes to that, I think that the process associated with all of this has been sound enough where even no matter how it ends up going, I don't think it's some death knell for the organization or for this regime. And also you got to realize the Packers, I believe, had the youngest roster in the NFL right now. This is a, it's a fully transitioning team right now. So it's, I think they,

done for the for the situation it's it's aging better than maybe what had happened in the moment it's aged better all right let's get to our next voicemail hey Robert and Nate Matt from New Jersey I love the show thanks for doing these mail bags over the summer it's going to be awesome last week you two were talking about the 2010 bears and kind of that bear's error and I was hoping to ask you about probably my favorite player from that time devon hester I was wondering if Nate has any good stories, and I guess in general, what do you think about his Hall of Fame chances? He's missed the cut twice already. He was always an unorthodox choice for the Hall, considering he was pretty much only a special teamer for us where he made his difference.

But, I mean, what a difference it was. I mean, teams schemes against him like nobody else. So, yeah, hoping to get some feedback on that. Thanks. Bye. I always forget that you were there when Devin Hester was there. You were there during a really good Devin Hester year, that 2011 year where he was absolutely incredible. It was 2010.

2010 is the year he was absolutely incredible. He had that return against the Packers on Sunday or Monday night. That was, oh, my God, one of my favorite moments where I've been a fan of a team ever. I was an amazing moment. Yeah. I was in London. And I was up until like six in the morning. And we were at the American sports bar in Piccadilly Circus that they had kept open until

like 5 a.m. And I was watching that game with a couple of my English friends when he returned that kick for a touchdown. I remember that vividly. It's like one of my like all-time favorite Bears memories. I, uh, yeah, I was in Madison at the time. It must have been Monday night because it was really hard with Sunday night because we'd have meetings and stuff during the season when I was playing.

Well, that's another thing too is like the Bears day to day. I don't have as many stories from when my dad was there because I was in college playing. Yeah. So like other teams, I was around more day to day. Um, so, you know, it's kind of a lot of more fan stories. were kind of some practice stories, I guess. But, uh, but that, that game was when I was in Madison, it was Monday night and a couple of Bears fans that I knew because I became an adopt as Bears fans that year. They're like, do you want to go watch the game? It's like,

yeah, I guess. So we went to a bar there and I, yeah, that punt return was awesome. I, I think he should be a Hall of Fame lock. You've made the case for it. Speaking of Devin Hester, um, I would say this is kind of my favorite story, I guess, but it's more of like a feeling, a description of a feeling. Every punt return was special. Yeah. Um, with him. It was a different feeling than I've ever had anywhere. Any, any, any punt returner I've ever been around. Any special teams play I've been around. Any big, those defenses were so good. It was my first exposure truly to some of those Jax teams, but I grew up a Vikings fan. Offense first, defense 12th on priorities of those teams. So getting around a team

with a exact opposite of how I grew up. Exactly. A dominant defense. It was such a weird feeling because it would be like, oh, we didn't score. Oh, God. We just gave up another sack. Oh, God. We're going to be down two scores and then it's like, pick. Oh, we got the ball at the 10. This is great. This is awesome being the offensive coach's son here. But every third downstop, the whole stadium, Soldier Field, would be standing. And there would be this buzz. And the only comparison I have for it is when, with the Vikings, when that Colpeper would tilt that shoulder back and everyone would stand up at the Metro Dome because they knew he was thrown it deep to Moss. And you just hear everybody all at once in the Metrodome. Those were the buzzes that I remember the most of

Give me goosebumps right now because it's just such a cool feeling. I would say one kind of like, I would say specific story. I maybe have two was the week after, so this would have been 2012, the week after Cutler walked away from my dad on the bench, or maybe a couple weeks after I went to practice and Culver act like he was like my best friend. I practiced. You would have never had any idea that day any qualms. So he was talking, hey, how do you read that play out?

Like, what do you guys put in on third down against two men? Like he's just talking to me like, I was like, I was like, what the hell is this? I was like, don't you hate my dad? So they actually had a better relationship. People realized it's just too abrasive personalities. And then the other one was Earl Acker and Briggs would talk a lot of shit to my dad because he was the line coach. Yeah.

And him, Marinelli, Rod Marinelli, Briggs and Earlacker, kind of had a lot of fun kind of back and forth during practice. So they would be like, they would run like a run play or something. And Erlacker and Briggs would be like, they're not running that. They're not running that. Coach won't run that. So my dad would make bets with him like, I'm going to call it three times. Yeah, just to like prove a point. Like, so those are kind of like my side stories, I guess, with the Bears.

Well, the stories about those defenses that they just practice like crazy. I mean, like the way that they practice, the speed at which they practiced was just out of this world, which like, you could see it. I mean, like the way that they played. I mean, it was, that defense wasn't complicated, man, but you needed to play fast to be good. And they were really good for those couple of years. I mean, I have so many. My freshman year, I, I would the Hall of Fame case, like I already, I've already made it. You can go back closer to the first can't court episode.

so we did two years ago. Like, he's the greatest returner of all time. He was iconic. Like, the fact that he was that iconic, and I think is a hugely important part of the consideration. But the, the, the part return against the Cardinals on that Monday night game,

again, the comeback game. I was my freshman year of college. I watched that game in the dorm. And it was just like such a beautiful little memory. And, like, it was a really special season. And then the second to last game I went to with my dad

before he died was the last game, because I was in college, like for most of the time, like from 2006 through 2010, So I didn't go that often because in the fall I was in Missouri. Yeah. So it was like the last game of the season. So it was like right around New Year's Eve, the Bears played the Saints at Soldier Field.

And he returned a punt for a touchdown. And it's just like that moment of like what it felt like in the stadium when he did that and when it was coming back for that was just absolutely incredible. And it just happened every single time. I remember the game against the Broncos that he had where he essentially like pretty much almost single handedly won the game for the Bears because he returned two kicks for touchdowns. like they're just he was unlike any other player and that's why I think that he absolutely should be in the hall of fair and also like big moments the super bowl return the I mean I my first exposure to hester and I think this is a lot of football fans was when he was in college against louisville and he broke off the punter in space and it was like the punter is like his jockstrap still there in

louisville like he he broke him off and it's like he's an iconic player I think he should just be an easy easy walk to be a hall of famer and I'm telling you guys just all those shank punts from other teams would be the funniest things like when you watch live because that buzz would happen. Everyone's getting excited all they're punting the Hester. And then the punter has been told by a special team's coach all week. Go opposite away from where he's at. We're going right. If he's left your punt right and there'd be a shank 35 yard punt and you just hear the whole crowd go like, oh boo like heckling the puner like no boo. We want the excitement. We want fireworks. So that feeling is what I remember the most from those teams. And it was a very fun feeling.

All right, guys. That's all we got. Thank you so much. much for all of the questions. We're going to continue doing these throughout the summer. I am excited to be back with you guys here in a couple weeks, so very much looking forward to keeping these rolling. Thank you to everyone who's sending a question. Please, if you have not, please go rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform or choice. If you listen on Apple Podcast, let us know that you like it.

It's the off season. Things are a little bit quieter now. Maybe you've got the time. I don't know if other people's schedules are built around the NFL offseason like mine are, but maybe it got a little bit more time. Fewer podcasts. on Tuesday when we don't have a show, go leave a review of the show. You got nothing to do.

For now, that is all we got. Really appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you later. This was The Athletic Football Show.