The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Monday Mailbag: Sad AFC quarterback futures, swapping coaching staffs, the infrastructure around Bryce Young, and more

Episode Date: May 15, 2023

Robert Mays and Nate Tice open up the TAFS mailbag on this episode of The Athletic Football Show. The guys discuss the saddest future possible for this class of superstar QBs, how certain bad teams might look if they could trade coaching staffs with good teams, the infrastructure around Bryce Young in his rookie season, and more.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Nate on Twitter: @Nate_TiceSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeThis episode is brought to you by...BetterHelp: Visit BetterHelp.com/MAYS today to get 10% off your first month Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. To the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Join me today. It's my good friend, Nate Tyson. How you doing, buddy? Doing well. Mailbag Monday.

Always doing well on a mailbag Monday. Always doing well. Peek behind the curtain a little bit. We record these on Friday. And it's just like a nice little end to the week. It's like, all right. Got the questions at the end of the week, like settling in as we were about to start on the weekend, digging through the mailbag, finding some good ones.

And I'm always in a good mood when we do it. It's fun. It's a fun little way to end the week for us and begin the week for you guys. And it's one of those where it's a good time for both of us because your central time always. I'm West Coast time, Pacific time. So like, you know, I actually sometimes you do pods at like 4 o'clock or 3.30 and I would hate that personally. I love being able to do podcasting at 1 o'clock because then we finish. It's like three.

And I'm like, kind of done with my day. I got maybe a couple notes or some little extra work I want to get. That's why I don't like doing it because if I finished at 2 o'clock, I'd be like, well, I could have prep for four more hours. And I'm just like sitting here. I'm going to work out and like wait two hours to eat dinner. So that's why I do it is to ensure that I get the most work in possible, which is a good way to handle. It's a healthy attitude.

And I'm like the opposite. I like to start my day going, like 8 a.m. And office going, rolling on the notes and then done after that. And I can go about my day. But it's perfect. Why I'm saying that is we do these Friday mornings. It's even better. Because there it's just we hit the weekend running.

And then we just, that's why if you want to know why we're other than why we're, Why we're so positive here, but other than that you guys always present great questions and we love our fans is it is a Friday morning as we record this. That's pretty nice. That being said, again, thank you to everyone who's sent in questions. So many really good ones. You know, I've responded to a decent amount of you saying that a lot of the more meaty questions that you guys have sent in. These are things that we've already kind of been kicking around as standalone ideas for June, you know, when we get a little bit deeper into the summer. When I get back from my honeymoon, all that kind of stuff.

So, you know, please, you know, if we didn't get to something or if there's like a real meaty question, and you're like, man, I want to ask them again. Feel free to send it back. And if it hits me, you know, and I'm seeing it, then I'll try to let you know that we're going to try to do it a different time. So, again, I responded to as many of you as I could to thank you for your questions and to say, we'll maybe do this a little bit later on, but there's just no way I could do it with everyone.

But it's always appreciated when you spend the time to send it in. So thank you very much. On that note, Beller, let's get to our first voicemail and get this rolling. Hey, guys. Looking around the league, most young quarterbacks that have grown into success are surrounded by weapons, even if the row lines are shaky. Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, Tua, Hertz, the entire 49ers, Trevor Lawrence, but a bit of an outlier, depending on your opinion of Christian Kirk. And heck, if I remember correctly, on a previous show, Nate even said

that as a former quarterback, he'd prefer to have a sub-receiver over a sub-lineman. Meanwhile, players like Mack Jones, Daniel Jones, and Justin Fields have struggled to get completely off the ground. So in a nutshell, my question is, is Bryce Young's situation in Carolina worse than advertised. The name recognition is there, but what defense is truly going to be worried about defending these weapons? It's a good question because I think we've kind of just penciled it in. Like, oh, it's a pretty good spot.

You know, like they could be solid right away. So I'm curious, how would you answer this question? I think the first point about, like, yeah, having that ace is always what you want, especially with a past catching room. I think we talked about that. I think some of my optimism for the, the, landing spot for Bryce Young or any rookie quarterback that ended up there was the offensive line. And I thought that's where more based on my optimism and word that is all rooted from along

with the offensive coaching staff and what all accounts for starting with Frank Reich and Thomas Brown and Josh McCown. I keep on to say Luke McCown for some reason, even though I like, I don't know why I know the brother. It feels like Luke McCown should be a quarterback coach in the NFL. By the way, I've had several conversations with Luke McCown over the years just because these teams that are good for a long. time.

Inevitably, you're going to write stuff about them and write stories about the kind of of biggest personalities at that spot. So when I would write about Breeze and Peyton, Luke McCown was one of those guys that spent a decent amount of time there. And he was one of the only guys who'd spend a decent amount of time there that was no longer there because every single assistant is still on the staff. So it was very hard to talk to people about how they worked there. But he was always available and always very kind with his time, very thoughtful.

So again, it feels like Luke McCown should be a quarterback coach somewhere based on my interactions with him in the past. That's always blows my mind when you look at Pete Carmichael's like history, coaching history. He's been with the Saints since 2006. And Lombardi has been there for most of that time or had been there for most of that time. That's insane to me. Ronald Curry been there for a while.

Yeah. Oh my God. And there's so many other, yeah, other assistants like you're speaking to that just been there. It's kind of cool. It's rare in the NFL that you get that. Because even like Patriots where there's been a lot of guys there for a while, you also got the brain drain that happens where guys were going elsewhere and

getting coaching jobs and bringing assistance with them. So it's unique. But going back to an original point, but is the coaching staff and the offense aligned is where the optimism comes. So this is a great question, though. I think this kind of combination of this past catchers of Thielen, DJ Chark, Chanel, even Jonathan Mingo and Hayden Hurst, it's like a C plus B minus. And I think why I'm not, I'm not saying it's great or anything. Why I'm not as worried as maybe what Trevor Lawrence faced his rookie year or Justin Fields the last couple of years. It's like there's a level of competency here. Like I know what DJ Chark is even if he gets hurt.

Adam Theeland has tailed off the last couple of years, but he's still okay. Like, yeah, should he be more of a number four at this point of his career? Probably, but at least he's competent. And I think that's where maybe some of the opposite isn't comes from. So at least I know that the baseline will be there. I think a guy like Mingo, Jonathan Mingo from Ole Miss, I do like, but he is more of a project type. So I think some expectations should be lowered about what he'll do his rookie year. But I think why I was optimistic about whatever rookie quarterback was, I think the pockets are going to be clean.

And I think the run games can be very good. So I think the floor will be high for Bryce Young that not have to do as much maybe as other young quarterbacks have to. The offensive line is a great point. I mean, the offensive line is better than most offensive lines. The number one picks or even first round picks get dropped into. And that includes the offensive line coach still being there. The continuity with the personnel and the guy in charge, I think, is really, important for Bryce Young, especially someone with Bryce Young's attributes and his skill set and who he is.

That's a big point, though. So I think that's a really, really good point. On the past catching side of it, yeah, I don't think Bryce Young has the sort of past catchers they're going to lead to an elite offense right away. But I think that he has the intermediate step pass catchers. And what I mean by that is if you look at kind of the trajectory of some of these other past catching cores on really good teams in the NFL. the 2019 bills. Okay. Josh Allen's second year.

They signed Cole Beasley and John Brown and free agency. That's perfect. Neither of them are superstars, right? But those guys got 221 targets that year. They were the biggest pieces of the passing offense. And they were at least competent NFL starters where the reps weren't negative experience for Josh Allen in his second year. When he was thrown to Robert Foster his entire rookie year, those were what reps were

a little more questionable. A little shaky. Yeah. And the other comparison, make look at the 2021 Eagles. Okay, with Devante Smith and Dallas Goddert, you know, kind of Quez Watkins was their third receiver. Like this is the intermediate step.

Do they still need if they're going to take that big step a year from now, two years from now, they need their version of the Diggs trade or the A.J. Brown trade. Yeah, they do because they had to trade DJ more in order to get Bryce Young. So I think it is acceptable. I think it crosses that bar of, is this going to be good experience? is this a safe environment for my quarterback? And that's beyond even talking about the coaching staff, the offensive line, all of those

aspects. No, that absolutely. And it's another thing, too, is that it's not the worst thing to make it a, I know this is a sound counter to have to make it a little hard on the quarterback where it's not just easy buttons. Hey, I'm just going to throw it up and he's going to make a play. Like make him work for, hey, I have to place this ball. So at least the play is positive and everything.

And then when you get better players off of that, it's like, wow, this is a lot easier. I don't have to put this ball right on time, perfect every single time. My guy's going going to go make a play and give me some room for error. So it's not like you said, I think intermediate step is a perfect way to phrase it. They're kind of, like I said, that B minus level. Yes, they need an ace. They need a little bit better. But this isn't terrible. And at least there's going to be competency. Yeah. As long as it's positive experience. That's where I'm saying. I like that. Positive experience. And that's how I feel about him. And again, I think the coaching staff also plays a role in that. Next one here for Michael Roth said, curious what your thoughts are on Washington's

quarterback situation. Seems pretty absurd to me that a fifth round pick with one career touchdown pass is handed the starting job over Jacoby Preset who finished top 10 in the NFL and PFF grade and QBR ahead of Lamar, Burrow, Dack, and Herbert. The Brown's offense also looks significantly better with Preset than Watson. But why is it seemingly a foregone conclusion? Brissette isn't the week one starter when he's clearly capable of leading a team. Thanks and go Browns. I like that. I've been assuming Jacoby Perciette is a starter. Oh, interesting. Okay. I have. I think I think I think. I think. I think it's a, hey, we have this guy, we know what he is. I think everyone in NFL know what he is. If Hal

surprises us in camp, okay, cool, let's go with it. But I've been assuming that he's the baseline. And I, it's a great point. I do want to reiterate is that, uh, that all the points made right there by Michael was that last year, Jacoby Perci was 12th in EPA per attempt, uh, 33 quarterbacks to 200 more attempts. That's in between Dak and Kirk, just like he stated. 12th and passing success rate between Jalen Hertz and Tom Brady. Pretty pretty cool. But also, QBs, this isn't just last year with the Browns, which had a good old line and all that. Since 2019, there's 31 quarterbacks with a thousand of more passing attempts. He has the same EPA per attempt as Kyler Murray.

He has the same passing success rate as Russell Wilson. Kyler and Russ scramble twice as often as Jacoby, but he's a more efficient scrambler. So it's like he's pretty standard starter. Like he is a, you can start with Jacoby Brissette and be okay, especially when you have weapons like Washington does. So I think that's the point, though. Right. can be okay. And so why wouldn't you explore the unknown ceiling of a Sam Howell for a $400,000 a year for the next two years? I think there's probably a very good chance that Sam Howell ends up

becoming a worst starting quarterback in the NFL that Jacoby Peret is right now. But that unknown and that theoretical upside and how cheap that theoretical upside comes when you don't have a proven solution at quarterback, that's why I think it's a, that's why I think it's at least worth exploring. Oh, yeah. If you're Washington, because if it works, you're rolling. This is a kind of a strange comparison because it's a different position. But it reminds me a tiny bit adjacent to what happened with the Bears at left tackle

last year, where they bring in Riley Reef in camp and Braxton Jones is a fifth round pick. And if it's at least close, just let the fifth round pick play. Because if he eventually develops into a capable starter as a fifth round pick at that position, you're playing with house money. And I think this is even accentuated when it's your quarterback by three or four times that. So that's why I think it's worth exploring, even if Jacoby Percette is probably a better quarterback right now than Sam Howell.

We know what Chicoby Peret is. Yeah, that's, that's the literal upside of doing that is I think that's where it's going to be a camp battle. I think it's nice that Washington can kind of go like, okay, if Hal is not anywhere competent, okay, cool, we'll just go with Jacoby. It's exactly right. Yeah. But like you said, with the upside.

My comparison for Sam Howell coming out, and this is before the guy took the leap, was Jalen hurts. So it's, you know, he's a tough runner. He's a more physical runner than Shifty. And he throws a beautiful go ball. So, all right, let's give him a shot. There's at least something workable there. And he's tough, like I said. So, like, you can get a little, the floor is high, I think, with him because of his running ability, even if he's not an overwhelming athlete.

So I get what exactly what you said is exactly right is if it's close, let's go with the young guy. Because who knows? Maybe he just keeps growing with a bowl that's alive. So we don't know what we have. I honestly appreciate the way that Washington has gone about this a little bit because there are so many teams where they do the Jimmy Garapolo thing. We're going to pay $25 million a year for Jimmy Garapolo. And over time, I've asked this multiple times where it's like, well, if you know where you're just going to be shooting for the middle with a guy like that, why not Roll just super cheap at the position, see if you can stumble into something and then figure it out later? I think part of the reason that Washington is doing this is that they're in some weird limbo as an organization.

but I think that even if it was accidental, this place that they've landed, it's kind of an interesting solution. And it's not the worst place to drop a fifth round rookie in with those weapons and the old lines competent enough. They've added a lot of pieces to the offensive line. The receivers are good. You're giving them a chance. I'd at least see what you got and just see what that string looks like as you play it out. Absolutely. So, yeah, I know.

It's funny in a weird way, Washington did it okay. They found an answer. And I think your Jimmy G comparison is great, though. Like, okay, you know what Jimmy G is. All right, but don't you want to maybe have that 5, 10% chance of getting more? Okay, might as well. And when you pay $25 million a year to Jimmy G, he is the starting quarterback. When you pay $8 million to just go be percent, you can be like, all right.

And half a mill to howl or whatever is, 800,000? Yeah, six million total to those two. Yeah, it's a good answer. All right. Dustin Martin asked us the question about if you could swap the head coach offensive coordinator and defensive coordinator with some of the bottom teams in the league with the top teams in the league, how much of a difference? would it make.

And he had a couple specific examples, and he specifically said bottom team, like bottom three teams. I want to just widen this a little bit and frame the question as if you could swap out a head coach or a coordinator, let's say, from one team to another, the best situation or a really bad situation to a really good situation, what realistically do you think would be the impact on both sides of that? Jasper Schubert asked a very similar question, by the way. I had one that was the bottom three team.

Oh, good. The Cardinals swapping with the 49ers. I mean, first it's the offense, first was the offense, but then actually in the defense, I got a little excited. If we're just looking at it last year, D'Amico Ryan's using like Isaiah Simmons in the slot like Jimmy Ward. That would be, I think that would be really fun. I think he would get a lot of Zach Allen, JJ Watt in his last year last, for their both are the last seasons with the Cardinals. But also like Buda Baker as like Hufanga. like that would be a lot of fun but also then you look at the offense Kyle Shanahan with

Kyler would be magic no offense align no problem with Kyle Shanahan so that's like okay we're fine and then on top of having like at least decent weapons DeAndre Hopkins I know he missed the first kind of third of the season but it's DeAndre Hopkins and decent enough other you know fast guys like I bet you Kyle Shanahan I can figure out a role for Ron Dale more you know like that I that would be the one I'd actually like to see and that's the cardinals who we consider one the worst roster in the league even last year wasn't that great i'd like to see Kyle shannon with that i'd like to see Kyle Shanahan with a lot of quarterbacks and a lot of offenses or Arthur smith with like Lamar jackson like which is which was what we almost

happened this off season or always in our heads like we thought that might happen so that was another one that I kind of was thinking in my mind so the 22 cardinals were four and 13 okay what is the 22 cardinals record with Kyle Shanahan and demico ryan's eight nine but that's a lot of games. Yeah. That's a lot of games. That's my right. I actually feel right about that or feel pretty good about that answer.

I think that's pretty good. I think that's pretty good. That is a much better answer than the ones that I came up with because I didn't have one that was that fully formed. I also had Arthur Smith. I wanted him to call the Chargers offense, even though it's very different. He doesn't have a running quarterback, but I think that he would have a lot of fun with Justin Herbert.

I mean, we also saw what he did with Tannahill. Like, I mean, it's just having like that big guy throw hard. I mean, it's, so I think even think about that. That's actually fantastic. So just what he could do with that team. And now Kellan Moore is there. And I'm curious to see what Kellan Moore will do. My big one here, and this isn't a bad team getting a better coach.

It's just this, the qualifier that we keep coming back to already. It's May 12th, and we've already mentioned it a dozen times. Like, we get excited about the Cowboys. And it's like, oh, Mike McCarthy's calling plays. I know, I know. How many games would you predict the Dallas Cowboys to win in 2023 if Andy Reid was their head coach? Oh my God. 13.

Like, with that defense? Maybe your favorite in the NFC, like no questions asked. Oh, me. Actually, yeah, I would say that. I would say no questions asked, but I would give him a game above, game above the Eagles. The Eagles lost, both coordinators. Yes, that's why. They would be my pick to win the NFC, I think, pretty definitively if Andy Reid was their coach.

God, can you imagine? that'd be so much fun. They have a lot of good players on their team. And Dan quit in this scenario would still be there. Yeah, yeah. And retain. Yes. Retain DQ.

I would, that's a really fun one. So that was the one that I had. And then I would love swapping out OCs and DCs just randomly again. I'm not even answering Dustin's question. But I would love if like a Giro Evereaux is the Packers defensive coordinator. Oh, yeah. That's the one I kept on back to, which is like, give me like the guy who was arguably

the best defense coordinator. coordinator in the league, like Vic Fangio too. You know, this is another name is like if they had hired Vic Fangio and just what they could do with all that talent. That's, that's another one. Place my mind goes. The funny part is like, it's not even that different of a scheme. It's the same scheme.

It's just run that much better by what they do. It's, in theory, it's a lot of the same stuff. But it's, I mean, as you ever was an assistant on those Rams teams the same way that Joe Barry was. Yep. So, all right. One of them runs it really well. All right, Bob.

Let's get to our next voice mail here. Hey, Robert. This is Andrew in Nashville. Thank you so much for everything you do and all your guests. And also a big shout out to Sando and Mueller on the Football GM podcast as well. So me being in Nashville really shades this question for me because I'm also a Browns fan. And that's about how the Titans are building this new stadium with a dome on it. And to me, I think it's a horrible decision because they're playing in the EFSI South. And being that all of the other teams are either in Florida or have a dome, I feel like they have a natural advantage in December and January with the less than ideal weather that they have here.

So my question to you is, do you think that there really is an advantage when it comes to weather? Or am I just overthinking it as a Brown fan used to having teams playing outside? So let me know what you guys think. and again, appreciate y'all, and a great show. Thanks. Bye. I love these types of questions because it's the type of thing I haven't thought about that much, and it sends me to look at it. It's like, okay, let me go look at the weather advantage for home teams in the playoffs playing outside and whether or not it actually exists. So I looked it up, and since 2000, teams that play in outdoor stadiums are 41 and 20

in home playoff games below freezing temperatures. Okay. So they have like a 680 winning percentage. That seems pretty extreme. So that number alone would lead you to believe absolutely this is the case. But obviously some qualifiers here. If you're playing at home in the playoffs, you are probably pretty good and you are probably favored to win. Teams that are favored by at least a touchdown in those games of those 60s.

Oh, you would deep on this. I love this. I love this. So more than a third. third of the games, they were favored by more than a touchdown. In games where those teams were favored by six points or less, 18 and 11. Okay. And teams are one and four as underdogs in such games, home playoff games where you're

playing outside. So I don't think there's a ton there outside of whether these teams should have won the game independent of the playing conditions. Another complicating factor in this, the Patriots of these 61 games have played in 14 of them and they are 12 and 2. I was going to say, oh, you got like Fav and Rogers era Packers. You got Tom Brady, Belichick Patriots. I'm trying to think some other cool.

The Patriots are 12 and 2. The Steelers are 7 and 2 in these games. Oh, Steelers. Yeah. So I don't think there's a ton there. Like, I don't, because I also think that we're moving to a world where in order to be a really good team, you probably have to have a really good quarterback and you probably have to be a really good passing game.

It doesn't matter where you play. The Buffalo Bill is playing Buffalo fucking New York and their path to being a really good team. They have good defense, but they have Josh Allen. They had a spread offense for two years in the snow. And I think that's becoming so much more just normalized in the NFL in terms of the pathways to success, that building your team around the conditions that they're going to play in becomes less important to me. Yeah. I think technology has helped too, like you've been on Lambo,

feel like the field is heated and everything. It feels a little bit warmer on the field than you would think. I think that helps as well. Yeah, I don't consider, and these guys are professionals. You got to remember that too. It's like these guys is, these guys is this. These guys have exposure to so much more, especially as their seasons and careers go along, that maybe that cold shock isn't as deep as you would think or as harsh as you would think.

Also, like, you know, stylistically, yeah, it might help you in some of the teams. Oh, we have a good defense. Oh, we run the ball. and that does help. It does help that. But like you said, it's really going to be quarterback driven,

whether they can handle that or not. I mean, unless you've got the extreme, extreme weather like that Bill's Patriots game two years ago where Mac Jones threw the ball three times. Like,

yeah, like, but that was once every five, seven years that you get a game like that. So it's not something that's every, every off season. I mean, just think of the Chiefs Bill's

divisional round game. And that was not like a warm weather game, but it was chilly. It was chilly. It was still fireworks. Think about the game, the Bill's, Dolphins game this year in the regular season.

The Miami Dolphins go to Buffalo. It was pounding the rock. People are throwing snow and they were just fine. They played really well. Totally fine. That's a great example too. Yeah. So I don't see it as big of an advantage as maybe it was in yesteryear or maybe in lower levels.

I just think it's pros. But the other thing, I just want a quick mini rant is don't think the Titans need a new stadium personally. Same with the Panthers. I like these guys' stadiums. Like they were built in the mid-90s, late 90s. I actually think they're fine. but it's the race for the new Jerry world.

And I get it. And that's why they want the indoor stadium so they can have the final four, WrestleMania, Super Bowls, Super Bowls, neutral psych, you know, college football playoff games, like concerts and all that.

So I get that, the revenue stream from that. But it's kind of annoying for me where it's like, that's a perfectly competent stadium. Like, grew up going into the Metro, man. Like,

you guys don't know what a trash stadium is until you've been in one. So, yeah, I have a little frustration with that, even though I understand, you know, money drives everything. It is pretty stark, though, when you go into the new ones and then you're in the old ones.

I will say that. Someone who spent a couple weeks ago, maybe a month ago. Soldier Field, I have a big deep, deep love for it, right? I think there's no bad seed in that place. It's small. It's part of the problem. But I've always loved Soldier Field. I love the walk to Soldier Field.

There's something, like, deeply nostalgic about it for me. I'm more talking about, I went to the United Center twice in two days, like a month ago. And, like, the United Center was built 95. And you're in the United Center and then you're in these like real state of the art arenas and you can feel the difference even though the building is still perfectly usable. So I get why some owners are looking at the shiny toys that some of these teams have and looking at what they have and be like, why don't I have that? If you want to pay for it, then go ahead. Sure. But I understand where you're coming from.

All right. Peter Longrig says, I'm from Glasgow, Scotland, a longtime NFL Packers fan and a long time listener and follower of the show. I've always worried and wondered about the rivalry in the NFL. NFL. At the end of your last show, Robert and Nate discussed how Robert sounded like he hates the bears, and Nate sounds like he love the bears. It got me wondering how much real rivalry there is in the NFL. Being from Scotland and being a soccer fan, there's a deep rivalry meaning most players would never want to play for rival teams, although money does talk in some cases. Is this the same in the NFL? There's obviously a big rivalry between the Packers, but players seem to be happy switching teams and the rivalry doesn't seem to come in between their fans. Can you give us some more insight into this? So let's let's talk about this. The rivalry still exists for fans. I think that is very real, right? I'll say, I'll say this. My first sentence, and the rivalies are mostly for the fans. That's, that was my first sentence. That's real.

I think that plenty of Bears fans hate Aaron Rogers. Like, just hate Aaron Rogers. They hate the Packers. I don't think the Packers have as much enmity for Bears fans because the bears have been bad for a very long time. So they don't really worry about it. It's the madman thing. It's just like, I don't think about you at all. Yeah.

Saints Falcons is like, that's very real. I think a lot of the stuff in the NFC East between the fans is very real. The whole AFC North. The whole AFC North. Very real. Seahawks Niners, there's like real dislike between those two fan bases. My buddy who's a Niners fan despises Russell Wilson. He always has before any of this.

So I think that's where it's real. For me personally, even though I am a fan of the team, when that is what has fallen away for me as I've done the job, right? Like I'll still root for the Bears. It still matters to me if the Bears win. I still am invested in it. But I don't dislike other teams. now because I go to those places. I see those people. I talk to those people. I've spent time

with them. Humanized them. Yes. I mean, it's like I, there are, Aaron Jones is the most pleasant man you could like ever meet in your entire life. He's just kind and thoughtful and just, just really a decent guy. I can't openly hate the Packers when you get, when, first of all, it's the professionalism thing. Second of all, it's like, I, I know some of these guys. Like, I've spent time with them. They've given me their time. So that's what falls away, I think. And I think for players, it's a business. You know, like Adrian Amos, if the Packers are offering him more money than anyone else after

playing four years in Chicago, he's going to go to Greenback. Like that's just how that goes. So that's my two cents on the situation. I literally have the exact same two cents. Ravleys are mostly for fans as someone that was a coach's kid and then being involved in the business. I always looked at as a mercenary. Like I switched allegiances from teams throughout my whole childhood.

Luckily, I was with the Vikings for. 10 years or unluckily, I should say. But that's the thing. I was, I cheered for the Vikings and then five, six years later, I'm cheering for the bears. Like who I cheered against my whole childhood. So I was able to kind of get away and separate that. And I think that's how a lot of players and coaches view it as well, like mostly or they're mostly mercenaries.

High as bitter. Some end up being lifers where it's great. Yeah. They, oh, I hated that team with all my heart. You hear all these old timers that were with the same team for 12 years. It's like, yeah, that's easy to do that when you're with the same team for 12 years. But I think a lot, you know, yeah, I can make another three million going with this team that I used to hate. Okay, I'm going to go do that.

I mean, Brett Farve ended up a Viking. Yeah. Like, come on. I think that was somewhat out of spite, though. I think so, too. Yeah, I really do. Oh, gee, like everything that followed up after his career, maybe, maybe thinks that. Your dad was with the Bears for three of my, like, was one of my favorite stretches being a Bears around in my entire life.

2010 was so much fun. The 2010 Bears team is still one of my favorite seasons being an NFL fan. It was my last year of college. I think that was also a part of it. It was like the last year where I just had no responsibilities and I could really throw myself into it. Julius Pepper signed that spring. I still,

I've told the story before, probably not in this podcast, but Julius Pepper signed March is when the free agency is, right? And at the University of Illinois, they used to have a thing that was unofficial St. Patrick's Day because St. Patrick's Day was always on their spring break. So they would have it like a random week day or random Saturday.

And so that was that day. Julius Pepper signed with the Bears and I was visiting U of I on like their party day. So it was just, I was in the best mood ever. And obviously, he was just incredible that year. And like, that was just a fun year. 2012 was a fun year. That was one of the most fun defenses ever. Like, it was buoyed by an insane turnover margin that was never sustainable. And Lovie got fired at the end of the year, obviously. And so did other people. But that, that defense that year was unbelievably fun. That Titans game in 2012 or Peanut Tullman caused like five fumbles in that one game, still one of my favorite games I've ever had as a football fan.

The Cowboys Sunday Night game was one of my favorites, the Cowboys Sunday, which is the game that Jay Color walked away from my dad on the bench. But other than that, like Lance Briggs had a like a fumble return for a touchdown that game. So much fun. Like being a Bears fan for three years is one of my favorite times of my life too, because that's when I was in Madison. My sister was in St. Paul.

So we were all back in the Upper Midwest after we had been away from it. I had been living, I was at UCF before. My dad was with the Jaguars before. So we kind of had this nice run. And it was the year we went to the Rose Bowl the first time in a decade, Wisconsin. So it was like everything's great. Rose Bowl, NFC, North Champs. Like this is life is good right now.

What could go wrong after this? And then, yeah, things happen. But no, life happens. But I agree. It was like that was a really, really fun stretch was that little, little bear's stamp for three years. All right. Bear's memory lane is over. Let's do our next voice about here, Bellar.

Hey, Robert, Nate. I'm just thinking about 10 years from now. If you guys think about if you fast forward 10 years from now, what would be the most sad thing you could be told about this quarterback class? Is it Justin Herbert not getting a Super Bowl win or maybe not a deep playoff run? Bill's never coming over the hump. Because ultimately, at the end of this last one, Philip Rivers never got his Cinderella story.

But more often than not, a lot of the other quarterbacks did. Anyways, I really appreciate you guys. Bye. So the first half of this voice, but we shortened it a little bit, was about how this maybe a AFC group of quarterbacks will compare to the golden age of quarterbacks. Where, you know, Breeze, Peyton, Manning,

all of those guys, Rogers, they got their Super Bowl. They eventually did win one. And then Rivers was the guy that was left out. So it's a great question. So at the end of this golden age of quarterbacks, specifically in the AFC for the most part, what is the saddest fact that could exist 10 years from now as we think about this group?

Justin Herbert falls into the same Tom Telesco, injury riddled, Chargers franchise, Bermuda Triangle that Rivers was a part of. I think that would be the saddest one. That should be my answer, but it's not. It's not. And then my other I, too, actually, at three, but my second one was the Bengals getting cheap. And then they pay, Burrow, pay Chase. And then they're like, well, that's all we got.

And then the whole kind of rest of the team kind of falls apart around them. I think that would be pretty sad because of how exciting and young they are right now. First answer, obviously it's catastrophic injury to one of these guys, right? Like that goes without saying. But like if we get robbed of like Trevor Lawrence's career, like, God forbid, like that would just be unforgivable. But in a world where they all stay relatively healthy, I think it's a toss up for me between Josh Allen and Joe Burrow never winning a Super Bowl. Okay. Josh Allen, because just think about the depths of sorrow in Western New York.

what that has looked like over our lifetimes. If that continues and they've gotten so close and the way that he played in the 2021 playoffs and I think that the way that the caller described Patrick Mahomes, like he's the monster at the end of the road the same way that Brady was. So if that becomes the case for Buffalo and they can just never get past those guys, that would be heartbreaking. But also think about it for Cincinnati. Burrow went to a Super Bowl in his second year.

He's one or two plays away from slaying the dragon on the road. and beating the chiefs this year to go back to the Super Bowl. If they never got one, considering their franchise history, oh, my God. And there's a decent chance. One of them never wins one. Like, that's very real. It's very real. And especially where they're at as teams right now.

It's the borough one would actually be, because like you said, Mahomes is the monster at the end of the road. And what if they slayed them twice and they went 0 for 2? Like that would have been like, oh, like, no one else can beat them. And we did it twice. in the biggest moments, oh, like that would be, that would be truly, truly, truly tough if you lay it out like that. We talk about this a decent amount. It is important to remember how hard it is to win the last game.

Rogers has won. Yep. He's been to one. One. Before Patrick Mahomes came along, Aaron Rogers was the best quarterback that I have ever seen. When you go back and you watch the 2009 playoffs into 2010, when you're, they won the Super Bowl. We talked about this recently.

He was an animal. I mean, the guy was playing the position. It's such a just mind-bogglingly high level. And he never got back. Maybe now. But as a Packer, he never got back. And it's just really, really important to remember that. Philip Rivers was awesome.

There was like a three or four-year stretch in the heart of the Brady-Manning era. And Breeze was doing incredible stuff in New Orleans. like 0809 kind of stretch. 07.08.09. Rivers led the league during that three-year stretch in like most efficiency metrics.

While these guys were at the peak of their powers, he never even got there, barely even sniffed it. You talk to every defensive coach and they all go, you ask him who was one of the hardest, everyone goes, Rivers. Oh my God. Rivers, Rivers, oh my God, Rivers is impossible.

Rivers is impossible. And he never even went there. He told me a story once. It was a couple of years ago. And I talked to me about this a few times, his career, kind of looking back on some of it. And they were in the playoffs, I think, probably was in 2017, maybe. And they were going to get back there.

And it felt like his last shot, you know, with this team. And we talked about it for a while. And he told me a story after they played, I think it was in the 07 when they lost in the playoffs to the Patriots, when Rivers was on the knee and LT was banged up to. And, you know, that that game was even closer than it probably should have been. And the year before, I think they had the Merlin McCree fumble game. Yes. Oh, my God.

That's right. And so Norv Turner was in the locker room after the game, and he said to Phil, he's just like, you know, well, you're going to play in a lot of these. You know, you're young. You're going to play in a lot of these. And he didn't. It's just never a guarantee. So that it seems kind of unfathomable that we could live in a reality where one of these guys doesn't eventually break through because of how young they are and how good these teams have been consistently over the last several years. But it's not that hard to get there.

It's really not. it's not that hard to get to that reality. It's hard to get to the Super Bowl. It's, well, I mean, even after the Rogers playoff run into the Super Bowl, and then they went 15 and one the next year, right? 2011. Yeah, and he went gangbusters. He was ridiculous.

And I remember everyone's like, oh, my God, it's his league. Like, they're going to want three of these things. Like, oh, my God, look at this team. Just like you laid out, it's like how quickly it changed very, like, and just how, it's so hard to sustain success. And that's why sometimes we underrate, you know, know what Andy Reid has done with the chiefs and the Eagles and winning all those games and making all those runs. It's like even without Mahomes and when they had Mahomes, it's like it's really hard to win in the NFL, especially consistently.

It's hard to win once you get into the playoffs. And the ones that do it, they're special and that's why we have to celebrate them. That 2012 Packers team was 11 and 5. They were top five scoring offense. That was the Kaepernick, burn them down game at Candlestick. Oh my God. So they just ran into a buzzsaw offense that they had no solution for. The Zone Reed buss.

No idea. It was disgusting. I was there. I mean, they just had no shot. And then 2013, Rogers gets hurt. 2014, another MVP year. They are the best offensive league. They scored 30 points a game.

That was the Seattle game and the NFC championship game. They lost. And they absolutely could have won the Super Bowl that year. But it's just, I mean, we're talking Brad and Boston. Onside fumble, outside kicks. And, I mean, that's what it ultimately comes down to, you know? The Bills is 13 seconds. You know, the Bengals is one or two plays here and there.

Like it, it always is that. And then what you don't want is to be telling those stories for the rest of your life. But sometimes that's how it goes. If you really comes down to coin flips, then sometimes you lose two, three coins flips in a row. And that's that. That's that. That's just how it goes. And I know, it's funny how we step away now or as time goes on and looking back at it.

It's like, oh, my God. Like even the fact of Rivers do even get to one. It's like just so shocking to me, especially how loaded those chargers teams were. It's just that's what. We're going to talk about one or two of these guys just like that in a decade. That's what's so crazy. Next one here, Ben Hoffman says, do you think teams will take bigger risks with 50-year options for first-round picks? I don't think anyone would have picked up Daniel Jones's fifth-year option.

But when he broke out, put the Giants in a tricky position. So do you think teams will think differently when it comes to the option? What do you think about this? I think it's so hard with teams. I think it's all team dependent. Like, was this the new GM that took the guy, or the old GM that took the guy and coach and all that? I think it's more teams are actually looking to cut bait from the fifth year option maybe than before. I have nothing to back this up, but it feels that way.

I know that what's the hit rate of fifth year option? I think they're getting declined even more now because they're guaranteed. So I think because they're guaranteed, I still feel like most teams are probably going on the air on the side of declining it. Quarterbacks may be the exception. But I feel like looking at what the Packers did with Jordan Love, it was like brings me back to like. the Malini horse in the hospital thing. It's just like, I didn't know you could do that. Yeah. The idea that there's a third door that you could potentially go through, especially for quarterbacks, is that something we see more teams explore? So you're protecting yourself,

but also hedging your bets a little bit. Obviously, the Jordan love situation is unique. I don't know if we're going to run into another one of those where you're going into year four and the quarterback you drafted in the first round hasn't played yet. You know, that probably won't happen again. But I assume that had some alarm bells or some light bulbs went off around the league or just like, oh, maybe that is a solution if we end up getting to that point where it's beneficial for both sides. But I also don't think the downside aspect of the Daniel Jones thing is as pronounced in

other situations. What I mean by that is, I think other teams would be more inclined. to just be like, go get a better offer. So for some reason, the Giants didn't do that and they paid Daniel Jones anyway. I don't necessarily think that a quarterback, another quarterback situation would play out the same way that the Daniel Jones thing did with the Giants. Yeah, that was felt unique. It is so position dependent as well. Like you're saying with the quarterbacks and all that, that's going to be such unique thing.

I like what you're saying with the Jordan Love thing, because that just really seems like cap guys in general have gotten a little bit more creative with some of the stuff. and the language and how they look at the bonuses. I mean, you brought up Hertz's contract the other day. Like everyone, it's not just everything's cookie cutter anymore. Not that it wasn't the first place, but as much so. And I think just that creativity, like you said, with the Jordan Love stuff, will lead to maybe more declining of these options. Because like you said, oh, there's other options to this.

Or, oh, it's hedge our bets. And, okay, we'll decline it. Okay, maybe we have to pay a little bit of premium on that year that we wouldn't have if we did, if we did accept the offer or, or, is it accept decline engage what's the word I'm looking for fifth year exercise exercise thank you I was like what is the word exercise the fifth year option so I think that's where it is is that teams are maybe get more creative and we'll take that bump if it does happen it's like kind of a prove me wrong kind of situation so I think that's really what it is so why not um I think that's

really what it comes down to all right next question here Vincent della fossey says enjoy the show very much surprised by what you said in the queue of QBNFC show. Seems weird to me, so I want to list some of the things you've said about the Niners and Eagles in their quarterback situations over the last few months. Eagles have a loaded roster, but you're not concerned about them keeping that loaded roster in the future. It's a good contract for Hertz.

Not too expensive. They can still pay their roster. Their offensive coordinator crafted an offense for his quarterback. I interpret that as Hertz being a little bit of a system quarterback. He had to adapt. The OC did. They lose their OCDC this year. No concern.

EPA dropback for Hertz last year. 0.09. It's not great, but solid. Shouldn't it be higher with a good roster? On the Niners side, they have a loaded roster, but you've said many times you have doubts about the future. You think they can't sustain it. They have a cheap quarterback room. Here, you didn't give them credit for that.

An offensive coordinator is head coach. He's still around. They lost their DC the season. Here you have some doubts, even if their defensive line coach is back. EPA per drop back for the Niners QBs, 0.15, which is top five in the league. According to you, it's entirely due to the roster. Personal opinion, Nick Mullins, C.J. Bethard were bad, so it's not only the system. I want to know why you're dinging the Niners for things you didn't ding the Eagles for.

By the way, I'm not dinging the Niners for anything. The show is about the quarterback specifically, not about their support systems. I'm dinging the role that I think Brock Purdy or any Niners quarterback has within their success. Anyway, the quarterback is the most important position of football for 31 teams except for the Niners. Shouldn't it be celebrated instead of criticized? Shouldn't quarterback X, insert competent quarterback for the Niners be number one in your rankings? Because no matter what happens, they have repeatedly proven that great roster building and defense and a great OC. They have those things. Yeah. If we were ranking QB situations, I probably would

have put the Niners number one. And that's why I said explicitly when we were doing this, that the biggest disconnect from me existed between how I'd view the Niners quarterbacks specifically and the circumstances those quarterbacks are put in. Okay? Yeah. If you pull up Jimmy Garapolo's stats and Brock Purdy's for last year, and I tweeted this out, the chart, they are almost identical in terms of efficiency and like production numbers. There are things that Brock Purdy can do that Jimmy Garoppolo does not do. That is a given. And one of the reasons I'm answering this, we had 100 Purdy questions.

That's a given, okay? Brock Purdy extends plays in ways that Jimmy didn't. He's more aggressive. He pushes the ball down field in ways Jimmy didn't. But in general, I believe their role within that offense is similar. I don't think it's a coincidence that those numbers look the way that they did. And I know that Nick Mullins couldn't put up those numbers and C.J. Bethard couldn't put up those numbers.

Nick Moulins has been on five teams in the past two years. He can barely stick on a roster. Like, Brock Pertie is better than that. But also, if you look at the games that C.J. Bethard played, those 2018, that's before most of these weapons even got there. Okay? Over the last couple of years, when this version of the offense has been in place, we've mostly gotten Jimmy and then Brock Pertie. And also, this is the best version of the offense.

Brandon I. Yook is now there. D. J. Debo is who he is. Christian McCaffrey is there now. So I think these are the best circumstances. And the last part about the Nick Mullins and C.D. Beatherd stuff. If you look at EPA per play, yes, Purdy and Grappler are much, much higher. If you look at yards per attempt, which is an imperfect stat for many reasons, Nick Mullins is up there near the top of the league. Because as long as you throw the ball to the guy you're supposed to throw the ball to, you are going to be incredibly efficient. What holds down the efficiency numbers for Bether and Mowens within this offense is sacks and interceptions, the things that Kyle Shanahan cannot control. But if you look at when they throw the ball, those guys are immensely productive compared to their standing in the league, right? So I think that is the argument here.

And is it amazing that the Niners could get this sort of production from Mr. Irrelevant? Yes. And I think that we have given them credit for that. But I think the biggest difference in all of this in comparing even the circumstances, comparing the quarterback specifically, I don't think that Jalen Hertz is a system quarterback in the same way that we're talking about here. Because I think what the Niners have built, they have built around their quarterback. I think what the Eagles have built, they have built through their quarterback.

And I think that is a very important distinction, right? When you look at why the Eagles offense is successful, Jalen Hertz's ability to run the ball and what he does for their running game is huge. They were a top three team in success rate last year in large part because of how they ran the ball. I don't think J-1 Hertz is Patrick Mahomes as a passer, but I think he dictates his team's success in ways that the 49ers quarterbacks do not. And I think that's kind of inarguable at this point, especially when you look at the

way that he played in the playoffs. Yeah, not much to add. That's like, I don't think I've ever criticized what the 49ers are doing. We are huge fans of what they do. Huge fans. Huge fans. We say it would an anomaly it is how amazing it is, like that they can do that, especially with the offensive line as well, that he makes it fungible.

Like he does. But just look, I could do a cut up. I think I did do a cut up of this on Twitter. If you want, I'll find it. And maybe I'll tweet it after this video comes out or this pod comes out is when Jimmy G. got hurt and Brock Pretty got in. The next week, they were running the exact same concepts. And there was going to the exact same person at the exact same time.

So that's where you're saying. It's like, you know, it's not as much as QB dependent. It's system dependent that the QB and then Purdy can do a little creation afterwards. But then you watch Gardner Minchu in that start in December against the Cowboys going in for Hertz, a little bit of a different offense because you can't do any of the Hertz running stuff. Even if Gardner does do some couple things, you know, as a thrower and he's pretty good operating at offense. He, what he brings to the table isn't as much as what Hertz brings to the table as a runner and all doing all the his creation stuff. So just adding on to what you're saying, I think it's, it's great what Cheney and all of them could do, but you have to separate some of that.

Like you said, the situation and what the quarterback is, like what he is if he were anywhere else. So I think that's just all I have to add to that or really just add to your point. I also think I'm not, my comments about being worried about the Niners' ability to sustain this are somewhat rooted in what I think the Niners told us when they traded up for Tray Lance. is that I think they had a feeling that it was going to be hard to sustain this machine that they had built. And eventually, when you're playing against the Allen's and the Mahomes and these guys who can exist outside of their circumstances every once in a while, you need one of those guys to combat that. And it is amazing that Traylands didn't work and they've been just as good. They deserve a ton of credit for that. I think that the offense has been as good as it's been over the last couple years and probably will continue to be very, very good with those weapons.

because now they have a cheap quarterback and can pay those guys. I'm more worried about the defense because you have defense is hard to sustain success. Your defensive coordinator is getting swapped out. And by the way, I have the same concern about the Eagles. The Eagles had 70 sacks last season. You think they're going to do that again? I don't think so. No.

I don't think so. Hide the record, right? Or break the record. I think that the Eagles defensive success last year is going to be very hard to replicate. So I'm not convinced that the Eagles are going to be able to keep this whole. thing together in a way that you can do over the next three or four years. So I think that I'm been pressed by the circumstances in both places, but the ranking was about the quarterback specifically and like what they can do independent almost through those

circumstances. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. I know it was a little bit muddled, but I think that was the differentiator in this conversation here. Yep. Totally with you. And I totally agree with your point with the Eagles. I'm just, that's why I'm so interested.

And it's something we're under, I think we're understanding. I mean, you're kind of talking about more and more is they have a lot of changes, Even if there's a lot of similar faces, you know, same faces. There are some changes behind the scenes. And you never know. You just never know what direction that goes. So that's what it will just be interesting to see maybe if they have any drop off this year. But as those things change, I have more faith in J.1 Hertz to kind of be able to withstand and transcend some of those changes and some diminishing aspects of his supporting cast because I do think that he can do a little bit more, right?

How it hurts look with the Texans last year and how would Purdy look at the Texans? since last year. You know, something like that. I think Hertz would get more, even if I, you know, so have questions about him as a thrower. Like, he did improve, but he does a little, he does more as a player. And I think that's just where the argument comes from. All right. Ethan Husek, this one's for you. So I was wondering what do you think is more important for a team to do well, being able to perform many different plays from the same formation or being able to perform out of many different looks and formations. What do you think about this? I love this question because I have gone back and forth throughout my life of what I think is most important or what I would prefer.

What I have come down to is I think you have to have your fastball and be able to get to it from different formations and looks. And by fastball is your best run concept, your best past concepts. But the next step is then having the change ups off those staple looks. So it's the staple. So there's concept and then formation or personnel concept formation. But my philosophy is you have your fastball concepts. That's the starting point, those five, six, seven plays that we want to run.

every single week. And then we implement the design changes, the formation changes, the personnel changes off of them if you can do that. Some concepts you can't do that. Then the next step is, okay, now we're running this out of two by two every single time. Okay, what's the change up we throw off of that? That's kind of how I would picture installing an offense as opposed to having a hundred plays out of the same formation, which I do see some positive aspects of, but there's only so much you can do. And I'd much rather be the master of five, you know, master of five moves rather than none, you know, master of a few than none at all. So that's kind of how I look at it. I think there is a ceiling to the same formation. Yeah, a hundred plays out of the formation. The team that

I would use as that example would be the early McVeigh Rams. Yep. Right. So the early McVeigh Rams played like that and it made them very hard to defend for a while because you don't know what's coming out of the same exact look and the same exact second and a half after the ball is snapped it could be a run it could be a play action throw it could be a play action screen off of that exact same look and it made them a nightmare to defend but i still think that there's probably a cap on how far that version of offensive football can take you on the other side of it i think like a good middle ground is kind of exactly what you're talking about when i heard you explaining that i was picturing last year's dolphins in my head where you have like five to seven money play money

plays that you go to consistently, but every single week, it's out of a different personnel group, a different guys on the motion. So you know what you're doing and you've practiced it a million times and guys are really comfortable with the structure and intent of a given play, but you're tweaking it just enough where it's hard on them, but it's easy on you. Yep. It's so much easier to go, I'll just make a play trolley Z dig. And then, okay, next week we're going to go trolley Z comeback.

I'm just making up terms here. but that is kind of it's a lot easier to do that than just go okay now we got okay we now we got we got this and it's a different read for the quarterback and yeah yada yada yada but i think that dolphin's example is perfect that's kind of what i was alluding to or even what the 49ers do with shanahan you look at the dropback concepts it's the same same shit every week it's just okay maybe one addition one tweak to what they did the previous couple weeks and i think that's a better way to go about it i did this in 2016 i wrote a story about cautioned ham because i love that falcons team and it was in the NFC championship game, I think, against the Packers.

And I went back and I wrote the story the week of the Super Bowl. And I counted how many different personnel groupings or formations they ran to start the NFC championship game before they repeated one. And it was 18 plays. So on their first 18 plays, they ran a different personnel group or different formation every single play over the first 18 plays. So there's value in doing that. Like if you can do that at a really high level and still have a cohesive understanding,

of what you want your offense to be. Like that is the best of both worlds. And that's why Kyle Shrianan has the best. Yeah. The picture doesn't change. It's just there's a little window dressing. We put this guy in motion. Now it's the tight end doing it instead the receiver.

But when it comes down to it, guys are running to the same spots. The same Xs are moving in the same spots, even if it just causes more consternation for the defense. I prefer that. Mike Leach was the same way. That was his whole philosophy. I'm running five plays. We're just going to tweak some formations every week.

I like that. I think that's a good way to go about football. All right, Adam says, hey guys, can you explain the idea of slot only versus outside only guys? It may be wrong, but it seems like the consensus says that Joey Porter Jr. is an outside only corner and Josh Jones is a slot only receiver. If not, replace the players for this example. So that means if they're both lined up outside, Porter's going to dominate those reps. And if they're both lined up in the slot, Downs is going to dominate those reps. Why?

Is it more or less based on situations such as first and 10, third, and 10? Good question. I think we talked about this in a way that probably needs a little bit more explanation. So how would you kind of decipher this? I think just looking at the paths outside receivers can take. We'll get you kind of like started here. And outside receiver, you got to think about where they're picture. They're outside.

They have to worry about the boundary. So there's a limitation on the routes that they can run. So he has to worry about the boundary. He has to worry about other players on the concept. You know, he can't just, you know, he has to be into the quarterback's face. He has to go vertical. Think of that more like an airplane path, straight line, vertically or up and over or a slant up and across and then a guy in the slot, he's off the ball. He can move around.

He can align differently in the interior of the formation in between the outside receiver and the offensive line. Think of him more like a helicopter. He can go up, five yards, go to the left, go to the right, go fake to the right, then back into the left. They have so much more room to operate. So it's a different skill set that's kind of necessary as far as baseline. Now, having said that, it's not the end-all be-all. We're seeing this. We've talked about power. slots or Devante Adams in the slot for the Packers, coaches are more willing to go vertical from the slot now. And they're getting better at that. So it's not the end-all be-all, just saying traditionally. And that's also why we see more, you know, safety's holding up in the

slot as well because, okay, we don't have to be as shifting. We could be more vertical. So just think of just the paths and the physics up from where those positions are. And that's where the skill set goes. That's why it's a little bit better to be bigger ball winner on the outside is because you're physical and you have to be vertical and you're a bigger target on the outside. And same with corner. Joey Porter Jr. is a perfect example. He's 6-2s, 34-inch arms. Doesn't have the quickest feet, but he can recover. He doesn't have the quickest feet to operate in all that space. If you're putting him in that space where the slot receiver can use it, then that corner has to defend it. And for a corner that's built like that, it becomes more

difficult. All of a sudden you're going against a guy. Oh, my God, he can go in any directions. And my feet aren't quick enough to adapt or recover. That's just why the skill set is more conducive for that. And so that's when we say slot only, outside lony, and the, you know, the great white whale is the guys that could do both. Those are the best that, corner or receiver or even safety that can do it. So that, that's kind of why you prioritize that, especially for skill set wise. A receiver, it's almost like a square as a rectangle. A rectangle isn't a square, right? It's just like one fifth and the other. Like Devante Adams is both, right? Yeah. But some guys can't do that. Okay. Yes. So with Joey Porter Jr., just think about when you saying the receiver

has to worry about where the boundary is, the corner can use the boundary when he's on the outside. So when you have a guy that's big and physical, it makes more sense for the space he has to operate to be operated to be limited, right? And the other big difference in my opinion, you can't press guys in the slot. So if you're a smaller player because you're off the ball, you don't have to worry about getting muscled in there. So I think that's a huge difference as well. And that's why Joey Porter's best trait is going to be redirecting guys coming off the line of scrimmage and you can't do that if you're lined up in the slot. So that's another area that I think is important to mention.

If you miss at the line of scrimmage in the slot, you're dead because now you're recovering and the guy can break in any direction. If you, you know, you can recover on the outside. It's like, okay, this guy can only break in or go vertically. So at least I can wall them off or recover that way. So it's just the room for error. And that that's just kind of, yeah, the skill set is more conducive for certain situations.

So no, I like what you're saying. The rectangle square thing is really good because that's exactly right. Ethan Merle says, as a Panthers fan last year, I was watching a lot of their all 22. I found myself scratching my head when they were even trying to accomplish in the passing game under Ben McAdoo. It seemed there were a lot of concepts were unsound and often led to every receiver being covered. What I'd love to know is this. What makes a past concept good at the NFL level?

Do you have a loose checklist of things to look for that makes a past concept good from a design perspective? Ethan also talked about how he coaches quarterbacks at the high school level, but wants to know kind of on the NFL level why these plays maybe have more answers to different coverages and why they're good at this level. Yeah, I'll start with the checklist, and that's the first thing I look at as receiver spacing in depth and tight end, pass catcher receiver spacing in depth. Are two guys near each other? Are they five yards apart, you know, seven yards apart?

That should be what it looks like. You should see the triangles being built with the concept, horizontal vertical stretch. Is there a flat controller? What I mean by that is there an underneath route to tie down the intermediate defenders to create the space of the high lows? I think there's sometimes I'll watch a concept. Greg Roman, I'll watch a lot of his stuff where two guys are running in the same spot or they have a vertical route with nothing to tie the underneath the defender down. So then that guy just drifts with a deeper route.

So usually do that with a checkdown, a cross or a swing, a play action element. So that's usually my checklist. And that's when sometimes I can go like, oh, that receiver's wrong all the time because it's like, or this guy's running the wrong route or this concept's bad or they don't teach it well. as you see guys running into the same area. As far as concept-wise, where you're saying at the high school stuff, it happens at the pro level. That is, this concept's good against man. This concept's good against cover two. But it's the thing with the NFL, it's that it's everything.

It's that is there is still a man-beater type of plays, but then there's types of plays where it has coverage beater, every type of coverage beater built into the play. And it's up to the quarterback to shortcut it. Because they don't want to sit back there and go one to two to three to four. and say in the pocket for four seconds and then just get their heads taken off. So that's where quarterback experience and quarterback eyes when I talk about that, that's where this comes in, is that they're able to shortcut it. If I run Y-cross, which is a post, an overrout and the dig,

I know against cover two that I'm not really going to throw the vertical. I'm probably going to work back to that dig. So I shortcut to two to three. I drop one. And I think that's where you see experienced quarterbacks understanding that. That's sometimes the number three options, the best one. But as far as types of plays, there's half-field reads, which is, if it's single high, I go this side, on one side of the ball. If it's too high, I go the other side of the ball.

We have kind of both concepts working at the same time. Then there's plays that are packaged together, kill plays, alert plays, check plays. That's where you see the guys going can-can. If it's too high, we go with play X. If it's single-high, we go with play Y. If it's zone, we go play X. If it's man, we go play Y. That's what a lot of those guys, Shanahan's and Reeds of the world, the West Coast guys, they really like

the man zone type plays package together. So I think the complexity comes with playing QB is not knowing the certain play calls because you run everything, but knowing of all the wide variety, how do I shortcut each one? And that's where the complexity comes because you might run the same play five weeks in a row and the coach gives you a different key. Hey, they run coverage. Every time we're in three by one, they're going to run two man.

So you can't go to all those others. You actually have to go to option four as your first guy. But then sometimes it's like, no, we can run the same play five weeks in a row and read it out the exact same way all five weeks in a row. That's where the kind of complexity comes is learning how to bucket everything and learning how to kind of succinctly go through each read. I think that's my best way I can put it. All right.

Last one. Nicholas Whitsy says your NFC quarterback rankings pot reminded me a question, comment that I've been thinking about for a future mailbag. One thing that bothers me is when folks talk about the Carr cousins, Tannhill, continue. So when we call these guys the 13-ish best quarterback in the league as though it's a virtue, My issue is that this sort of descriptive language can be misleading because it sounds like such a small number. Aside from the fact that not all of them can be number 13, therefore some of the guys in this range are 14, 15, 16, etc. My issue that the number doesn't account for how low the denominator is for starting quarterbacks.

It's 32. If someone is the 13th best quarterback in the league, that means they're 13th out of 32 NFL starting quarterbacks. Said differently, they're the 60th percentile of the most important position in professional sports. I totally understand there's value and competency in some teams will take that over a dumpster fire rebuild. but I just think we need a little bit more honest about what it means to have the 13th to 16th best quarterback in the NFL. Okay. I understand that. Here is where the distinction comes in, and this is crude, but I think this is how teams sometimes make this distinction.

Rather than calling it the 13th best quarterback in the league, I think the line that's important to me is, do you have a win-with quarterback? That's the line. It doesn't matter what the number is because if you're getting the same sort of play or the same range of play at 13 to 17, who cares if they're 13 or 17th? Sometimes there's 20 of those guys. You know, sometimes there's 14. Do you have a win with quarterback? And how valuable is that to you?

Are you willing to pay $40 million a year for a win with quarterback? New York Giants, Minnesota Vikings. Are you willing to do that? And when do you get off that win with quarterback? Do you feel like you need to get off that win with quarterback? Those are the questions. But that to me is more important than whatever number distinction we're putting on these guys. Do you have a win with quarterback?

Some teams will do it as colors, right? So we have a blue quarterback. A blue quarterback is somebody that, that's your Mahalms, your Allen. I have an elite quarterback, blue chip quarterback. Blue chip, yeah. Okay. Do we have a red ship quarterback? A red ship quarterback is like upper end of the win-with quarterback spectrum.

And then some teams will think, okay, if I have a red ship quarterback with blue moments, that is the Matthew Stafford Super Bowl run. Yep. Okay. So though that, maybe that, those distinctions are more illustrative and more useful. That's like very good, good to very good, I guess is how I would usually phrase that. For a red ship player. Yes, yes.

That's how I kind of go about it. Yep. So do you have a win-with quarterback to me is the more important, to more important distinction. And I think the tier of quarterbacks that I'm talking about, they're win with, not win because of. And I think it's important to think about what that means,

what the limitations are, and what you're willing to pay for that sort of quarterback play. That's my answer to this question. A lot of things with scouting, and this is not even the quarterbacks or just how tiering players is also like consistently does this, consistently beats better players or consistently beats very good players. So it's not like you're saying,

the flashes of blue. And that's the distinction that you always have to set. Mahomes is Mahomes, week and week out. He doesn't have much drop off any week. You see Mahomes playing like Mahomes. And then that's where other guys, that's where that drop off us. Like a guy like Dak, I consider two tiers below Mahomes, even if I really like him, because he's good with some flashes of blue, but it's more flashes of red, you know, the red ship that he's maybe just below that. So that's where the distinction comes in. I like also just like you said, it's, yeah, it's not always there's 13th to 16th is the 50 to 60 percentile. It's like, really, sometimes there's 18 of these guys that can do that. Sometimes there's 10. Yeah. And sometimes there's 10. We just sometimes there's like right now, there's a lot of really good quarterbacks in the, especially in the AFC. So usually I would say elite, there elite to me is like top 10 percent at whatever you're doing. So or top five, really, but let's say top 10. So usually it should mean three quarterbacks, maybe four. I think there's a

couple more of that. Like that is just how it is. It's going to change every year. The supply and demand is going to change every year. So every tier jump, we got to understand how great of a tier jump, what that means when you're jumping a tier. With blue chip and red chip, that's a big difference. So I think that's really what it is, what you're saying, win because of or win with. So that is, just has to really kind of have weight in people's

heads as well. All right. That's it. That's it. That is all we got. Again, we will be doing these every week. So please be on the lookout for another one next Monday. And continue to send in your questions. I Athletic Football Show at gmail.com.

It's where you can send in the emails. Our voicemail line is 872-22-7-7-3. One more time. 872-22-22-7-3 if you want to give us a call. For now, that is all we got. We will be back on Wednesday. Until then, appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon.

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