The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Monday Mailbag: The NFC North's head coach stardom, the best drafting teams, remembering some running backs, and more

Episode Date: April 21, 2025

Robert Mays and Derrik Klassen dig into the mailbag one more time before the 2025 NFL Draft on this episode of The Athletic Football Show. Can one division support as much head coaching talent as the NFC North has? Should teams be wary about giving out top-of-the-market extensions to players at non-premium positions? Who were your favorite running backs to watch play? The guys answer those questions, and a whole lot more.RundownNFC North loaded at head coachWhat's the easiest position for a world-class athlete who has never seen football to play?Giving top-of-the-market extensions to players at non-premium positionsShould we expect Jayden Daniels to regress along the same lines as CJ Stroud?Teams that are good/bad at draftingUse of the fifth-year option affecting draft decisionsShould teams consider division opponents in team-building processShould teams think about second-year players who had huge rookie seasons?What are the most fun "caution-to-the-wind" picks that could happen this year?Who were your favorite running backs to watch play?Host: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. It is another mailbag Monday here in the Athletic Football Show. Another slate of great questions. Sincerely appreciate everybody who took the time to send one in. Quick reminder before we get to the mailbag with Derek and Beller, it's draft week. We've got tons of great shows coming your guys' way this week. A pack slate, a show every single day. But the headline, the marquee event is what we got on Thursday and Friday night.

Round 1, 7.30 p.m. Eastern. Me, Dane Bruegler, Derek Classen, Bruce Feldman, live. on YouTube breaking down every pick of round one. Please be on the lookout for that. We'll be talking about it a ton over the next few days. With love if you would come spend the time with us. Friday, we will be back 6.30 p.m. Eastern. Me, Dane, Derek, a bunch of people from the athletic newsroom,

bunch of great guests breaking down every pick from rounds two and three. So the draft only a few days away. Very, very excited about that. For now, though, let's get to this week's mailbag with Derek Classen and Michael Bauer right now. It is time for another mailbag Monday. here on the athletic football show. Our last one for a couple weeks,

because we got the draft next weekend. And so there will be no mailbag next weekend just to, next Monday, just to give you guys a heads up. We will be letting the day three draft recap breathed next Monday, which if it were up to Dane, we would do day three live. We would just be live for like the entire five hours,

breaking down rounds four, five, six, and seven. And I would just be sitting there like a zombie by the end of it. We are not doing that. We're actually going to watch the last day of the draft at my house. and do the show from my house, which is going to be very fun, but that will mean there is no mailbag. We do have one today, and I'm very excited about the one that we have today. Here to help me dig through the mailbag questions, first of all,

it is my co-host here at the athletic football show. Derek, how are you doing, man? I'm doing great. We have to cherish this mailbag. Yeah, we're going to take a little bit of a break here. We're going to have a very long, you know, Thursday to Sunday doing draft stuff. So we got to cherish this moment where we get to kind of just play around a little bit. We'll get back to them after the draft is over,

but we'll take a one week hiatus because we will be reacting to the draft. And as we've done the last few weeks, here to help us read the questions and make things flow a little bit more smoothly. It's our producer here at the athletic Michael Beller. Beller, it's been fun having you do these the last couple weeks. I have thoroughly enjoyed it. I miss being on the mic, so it's nice to get back into it. I like reading stuff and doing so out loud. So that feels good too.

It's just been a lot of fun to get in the mix with you guys. And I had to, if you're watching on YouTube, you can see I had to wear, Wisconsin gear today because they put out the list of the legends who are going to be announcing the picks in the second third round with the draft being in Green Bay. There's a ton of Wisconsin dudes and just warmed my college version of me heart to see like Lee Evans and Owen Daniels and Joe Thomas on there, all guys who were badgers when I was in school. So very excited for that.

Man, I don't know if I appreciate, I don't know if I like them incentivizing you like this. You Wisconsin people are already annoying to me. And so the fact that they're doing this for the Green Bay draft, I'm not sure I like it. All right. Let's dig into them. Let's get started. All right. Sam Burkett gets us going here and keeps us in the upper Midwest. He says the NFC North seems loaded in the coaches department. Matt LaFleorne, Kevin O'Connell and Dan Campbell are already talked about in the upper echelon of coaches. And everyone seems to believe that Ben Johnson has that potential as well.

I can't remember ever having a division with elite coaching on every team. Can a single division support that much coaching success or are we more likely to see at least one coaching staff become a casualty of the situation in the division through no fault of its own coaching talent. And if so, who do we think would be most likely to fall victim to that circumstance? Robert, why don't you take this first one away? Well, the first thing I'll say is the AFC West has given the NFC North a run for its money right now. I mean, the fact that the AFC West currently has Andy Reed, Jim Harbaugh, Sean Payton, and now Pete Carroll, that's pretty good. And it's actually kind of when you're comparing those two divisions. It's kind of a fun old school versus new

school. They like stack them up against each other. We got the old guys in one. We got the young guys in the other. Let's see who comes out victorious. I actually like that. But if we're focusing solely on the NFC North, it's the Bears. Like, how can it not be the Bears? We've never seen the Bears do this before. I'm bullish on the Bears staff. I'm excited about this group. You know, for some reasons that I think the public knows for some things that I've heard behind the scenes, and I'm sure we'll talk about more as we get a little bit deeper into the offseason. I think this is the right bet. I've said this 100,000 times. about this staff and Ben Johnson specifically,

but we've never seen them have success. Like there's absolutely a chance that they fall flat on their face. So it's the Bears because we've just never, ever seen them do it before. Yeah, we've never seen them do it before and they're the only team with a rookie head coach. Like, it would be kind of crazy to say that it's anybody else because all the other guys have already proven

that they can win like 12 plus games and go to a conference championship game, whereas maybe we get there with Ben Johnson, but who knows. I would also throw out the NFC West is pretty insane. Sean McVeigh, Kyle Shanahan. I think we all, you know, I think Mike McDonald's is probably one of the best defensive play callers

and minds in the league. And then Jonathan Gannon, in this case, is actually kind of a perfect thing about what he's talking about, where I think we kind of like where Gannon is headed as a head coach. But when the other three guys in the division are those guys, it's like, you kind of just get,

you kind of end up in the spot where it's hard to leverage that. Whereas like, if what Gannon was doing with this specific Cardinals team, he was doing that in the AFC South, you could probably get a wild card spot because the rest of the division outside of Houston, who even they were not that good,

you could probably steal some more games than you were in your own division. I hesitate to even say this because I don't want to give you this. And it's just like feeding a grandma after midnight. I think I want to have some real considered Cardinals conversations this off season. Just about where they are and where they're going and how we should consider them. I find them to be a really interesting team because my concern is that they might be plateauing a little bit in the Gannon era and what that means. But I tend to agree with you with Gannon space in the NFC West specifically and where he

would stack up in another division. Let's just hypothetically say Ben Johnson hits. And Ben Johnson is like the prince who was promised. And he's, you know, Lassano Gai, whatever sort of messionic parallels you want to draw here. I think the other staff that I would say is probably Detroit just because we don't know what's going to happen with the turnover. You know, this is always a challenge when you are the CEO type head. coach and you have to replace your coordinators, especially your offensive play caller.

Dan Campbell has earned the benefit of the doubt as much as you possibly can. Like what they have done in building their staff and turning over their staff. I was saying this the other day to somebody. I can't remember in what context, but what they did with their defensive staff last year, I think has gone sort of unnoticed. They hired Drell Williams, who's now the defensive coordinator for the Patriots as their defensive line coach. And they brought into Shea Townsend as their passing game coordinator.

And think about the play of the defensive line from the, Lions last year and think about the play from the secondary from the Lions last year compared to the previous couple seasons. And even moving on from Anthony Lynn as quickly as they did, they've done such a good job not only of building the staff in Detroit, but churning the staff in Detroit. So I think at the end of this process, I feel good about where they will come out, but there's absolutely some uncertainty thrown into the mix here when you have an offensive coordinator who's done this one time, one time for a weird Jets team and you have a defensive coordinator who's a rookie. So there's definitely some uncertainty in Detroit in ways there

aren't in a couple of those other places. So in this hypothetical reality where I'm a happy, content, fulfilled person and Ben Johnson is a good head coach, I think Detroit is probably the next team I would mention. I think that's a good one because yeah, with Matt Lafleur and Kevin O'Connell, they run the offense. Like, you know what it's going to be every single year. There is insured stability which is always a good thing and that's why I bet on offensive play calling head coaches. Exactly. And like I have a lot of faith in Dan Campbell. It'll probably be fine. And I think his, his value is that it's not just that he finds good coaches. It seems like he finds the right people. Like he just knows how to surround himself with that. And that that is something that probably can sustain to

some level. But even if it's the right people, it's hard to find coordinators every year who are as good as Ben Johnson as good as Aaron Glenn. So yeah, that that probably is a good one. Even though it feels crazy, given they just won 15 games last year. But that's what happens. When brain drain comes for you, you have to make sure that you were turning things in the right way. And it's just more difficult when you have to replace your offensive play caller as part of that process in a way a team like the Packers or the Vikings or now the bears won't have to even if they have success. All right, Bob, let's keep rolling here. Okay, John M has the next question for us. He says, let's say you had the best athlete in the world, but they had absolutely zero prior football knowledge.

They had never even seen the game before. What would be the easiest non-special teams position to learn in terms of, of learning the strategy and the scheme. You can also ignore positional body type requirements. You can put this theoretical athlete at any position. Derek, obviously, I add you in mind when I put this into the rundown. So you take this one first. I think it's got to be pass rusher.

Because even if just the way that we talk about guys coming out of the draft, that is the position we are most okay with, he's a ball of clay. And you know, well, we'll figure it out. Shamar Stewart is this player. He plays like he's never seen football before. I'm kidding. But we've seen this before. before like Ziggy Ansah was kind of this player where it was like, he was so raw.

And like he actually was kind of good until injuries really started to beat away at him. But those are the guys that, Daniel Hunter is another example. And he was complicated because just the way the Ellis used them. But it's another example of like, you can find guys who are just unholy athletes who can just figure it out and go get to the quarterback. And I also think why it's slightly different to me than defensive tackle. Things happen so much faster at defensive tackle in the run game that I think it's actually harder to learn and see things, whereas when you're just kind of setting the edge and

playing defense that way, I think it's a little bit easier to get a guy to learn some of that stuff. A lot of other positions, I think, were hard. I think what's interesting is I kind of wanted to flip it. Are there any positions for you that you would just take off the table, that you would just be like non-starter? I wouldn't even try it. Linebacker or safety. Yeah.

Because there's so mental. Center I also put in there because it's the same thing. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Mental burden is so, if you've never seen football before, it's hard. Center's absolutely the best possible example. Because at least that linebacker, you could be like, all right, that guy with the ball, you just need to chase him.

And you just need to tackle that person. At least you could do that every once in a while. Again, I'm being mean here, but like, Devin White, like, just throw the athlete out there and let him chase the ball carrier. That works. At center, it absolutely doesn't. Pass rusher was also my answer. Beller, when the way the question was framed, there was no specifications about

body types. And so my thought was, what is the best athlete? And I just kind of imagined somebody with like tens, 99s in every attribute in Derek Henry's body. That was kind of my thought. Like 6.3.250, the most flexible, powerful, fast athlete you could possibly imagine. And if that was the body type that we're dealing with, it's pass rusher. Like just put them on the edge and let him go get the quarterback. Because even if you have no refinement whatsoever, you could at least bull rush people every single play and collapse the pocket. All these other positions, like theoretically, I think you could, some people might say receiver, right?

If I got the fastest guy in the world, I put him at receiver. But there's still a level of refinement. You need to play a receiver at even a baseline level that I just don't think exists with pass rusher in the same way. With receiver, like, you could, I think with an elite athlete, you could be like, oh, you can coach him up to be a good route runner and stuff. and that stuff I think you can get me there on. But with some of the ball tracking and learning how to play like at the catch point,

like that actually seems a lot trickier to me. Like playing on the sideline, like making sure you're in bounds. Like that actually seems like there's a little bit more nuance that you need to kind just have played the position for a while. And I think one of the reasons that we see these experiments, you know, there are a few and far between, but when we guys have never played the position before or never play the sport before and we see them play running back or receiver, it's because there are more people built like running.

backs and receivers on planet Earth, then there are that are built like NFL pass rushers. So if the pool of people was infinite and you had as many body types like pass rushers you did with receiver, I think you would see as many experiments at pass rusher as you've seen with some of the skill positions. This, by the way, makes the Jordan my lot of thing even more insane because tackle would be pretty low on my list of positions that I could throw a random guy out to go learn. And then he's a pro bowl level left tackle. It has been for a while and probably will be for another.

eight years. That's unicorn shit though. It's like him being an insane athlete and him landing in a situation where he's with one of the best developers of offensive line talent the sport has ever seen. And that's what makes it such a cool but also unique and probably once in a generation type story. All right guys. Next question. It is from Adam Lansour. Adam says with it being draft season, there's a lot of talk about positional value. However, it doesn't seem like we discussed that a ton when it comes to free agency and contract extensions. I'm a lion's fan and The bill is going to be coming due on a lot of guys soon.

Much was made when the Lions used four top 50 picks on running back, lineback, linebacker, tight end, and safety a few years ago. Reactions after the draft were fairly negative, but I would say all those guys have worked out. I think we would all agree with you on that, Adam. However, now that it's time to pay those players' extensions, I'm curious where you guys stand on the value of extending non-premium positions to top of the market money. Do you think it is worth it to extend at these positions, or do you think the fact that these guys tend to fall in drafts due to their perceived value makes it make more sense to let non-premian positions. walk and reload them in the draft. What do you got here, Robert? My stance on this is that the downside of taking players at non-premium positions in the draft

means if they hit, it's less important to you. You get less value as part of that process. We talked about this a couple of weeks ago when we were discussing the Jalen Carter versus Jemir Gibbs conversation. But that doesn't mean it's a bad thing if the players at the non-premian positions do hit. Having players you want to pay is very good. Yes. This is a good thing to have to worry about.

And so I think the problem to me is when you find all these players you want to pay and they're only at these non-premium positions. Like the team that always comes to mind for me with that is the Frank Reich era Colts, where you had these guys who were draft hits, mostly from the 2018 draft, but those players, they were at guard and off ball linebacker and defensive tackle. And defensive tackle, I think we're changing our opinion of that a little bit. but that was a very good example of a team that had some draft hits, but those are the only good players on the team,

the only needle moving players on the team. The lion's best players are still a right tackle, an edge rusher, and a wide receiver. So they don't only have these players at non-premium positions. What you're likely going to have to do is you're going to, if you want to pay all these guys, is you'll have less money to spend in free agency. That's okay.

I would rather pay Kirby Joseph, who's a homegrown player for culture, We know what he is. There's certainty there. Then having to overpay Trevin Merrigan free agency because I haven't been able to find a safety in the draft. If you get to a point where you have to make a decision and you have to say we can't pay everybody, yes, these are the positions you would look at.

Like I think the Eagles are a very good example of this. The Eagles have so many stars. They've paid two tackles. They've paid two receivers. They don't pay safeties because they feel like they can find those guys in the couch cushions every once in a while. So if you have to skimp, you can do that, but I don't think you necessarily have to. And I don't think we should think about premium positions in this way necessarily.

Yeah. In an ideal world, you want to just pay the top of the market to the positions that matter the most. But at the end of the day, the draft, obviously you get some value of out of having these guys on their rookie contracts and maximizing that window. But it's also just the point of the draft is to have players you want to pay three or four years from now, regardless of whatever their position is. because in theory, if we're, you know, quibbling about having to pay top of the market, if your options are, in theory, if you're just paying a guy a lot, paying a guy top of the market for a guy who has been on our team for four years and we're

going to keep him around and he's good enough for us to want to do that, or go pay top of the market for ex-free agent at that position, there's probably a reason the guy is leaving his other team. And there's a reason you want to keep the guy who is already on your team. So chances are that guy is better. It's what we saw this free agency cycle. almost none of the good players left. And I think every, like most teams that pay their guys are probably going to be happy.

So I think of course, ideally you want to just pay premium positions. But I don't think there's any issue. If you have a guy who is a Pro Bowl caliber player at running back, lineback, or safety, I think it's totally fine to pay them. I also think there's some value if, again, you have premium position players. Like you still have a good right tackle the way the Lions do, still have a good receiver. I think there's still some value in having very good players at unique positions. being one of the six teams that has an elite running back,

it's kind of a nice little value. You know, the Niners being one of the teams that has an elite linebacker, there's some unique value there in having guys like that. Yeah, I think this is more about if the benefits of hitting on those guys is limited. And so the floor, we've talked about this, the floor is the same. You're just missing out and the benefits are limited. So that's why betting on non-preming positions high in the draft is not necessarily a winning gambit. but if you hit on those guys, it's totally fine.

Then a lot of those considerations and concerns, I think, start to go out the window a little bit. All right, guys, here we go with our next question. Mitchell Wolfe asks, or I guess he says to start off. In 2023, C.J. Stroud played very well and looked like he was going to be the next guy up to join the elite tier of quarterbacks. Then he struggled in 2024. Some of that wasn't his fault. They still ended up making the playoffs and they won a postseason game.

But still, we had those conversations about Houston's offense quite a bit. Also last year, Jaden Daniels took the football world by storm leading Washington to the NFC championship game. Naturally, everyone is now seeking to annoy him as the next best thing. So my question is this. Should we expect J. Daniels to progress in 2025 similar to the way C.J. Stroud did in 2024? If so, what specific areas of regression should we expect and to what degree relative to Stroud? How much of this could potentially then just be chalked up to teams having a whole season of film on Jaden Daniels? let's give this one to you, Derek, first.

Yeah, I, so I would start off by saying that for a majority of the year, Stroud was like mostly the same player that he was as a rookie, which to me was pretty good. I think you only saw start to deteriorate towards the end of the year where a little bit more skittish in the pocket. I think less willing to make some of the tight window throws that he was early in his career or as a rookie. The Jets game was bad. The Jets game was the worst. That's probably the worst game I've seen him play at any level. Like, I don't even think he had games like that.

Yeah, yeah, honestly. So he had some moments like that, but I think by and large, he was still a very good player for a majority of the season. And I think part of why that feels bad is so much of the C.J. Stroud thing in the conversation was, okay, he was a top 10 quarterback as a rookie and then he's going to get better. And then he just didn't get that much better. But he was still to be like a top 10 and 12 quarterback, which is absolutely a win. I just think that we baked in this progression that that didn't happen. And so I think he is going to be fine.

Where I would push this towards the Daniels conversation is I don't think, I think saying that we should expect him to have a, you know, sophomore slump or regression is probably the wrong way to frame it. The way the way that I would frame it is that we should just be open to the idea that that is possible. And I think that they're. I think we should be open to the idea that he might just not get better, right? I think that's the mistake we've made, I think.

We always think the line's going to go up. Yes. And that I am, I'm more guilty of this than anybody in America going back to last summer and how we talked about these guys. And I think the two best examples are Jordan Love and C.J. Stroud. You just look at what they did in the first time we saw them and you think, oh, well, of course they'll be better. It's year two.

They're more comfortable. Like with more exposure, they'll be better. And that just didn't happen. And so I think just baking that into the way that we talk about these guys, I think that's where we've made a little bit of mistake. And when I say we, I mean me. And I think I think sometimes, too, it's just a time frame thing. I think we think, okay, CJ's child as great as a rookie, he can be a top five quarterback. That might still be true. It's just that we might not get there until he's 27. But we just wanted it today. The line doesn't go in the same direction at the same pace all the time.

And again, I think that I'm very guilty of falling into that trap a little bit too often. I also think your answer to this question depends on how much you think CJ's regress. last year was about the erosion of what was happening around him. They nuked the offensive line and fired the offensive coordinator. Clearly, CJ shot was not the only problem. Exactly. And so I don't think he's without blame, but I'm tacking up a majority of the issues with their offense to what happened to the foundation of that offensive ecosystem with the

offensive line, the play caller, etc. Like the bottom fell out of the pass protection. There's no way around that. You go back and you look at that Chief's game. The bottom fell out of the rest of the. of that offense. And so I don't think that's going to happen with Washington to nearly the same extent. One, because we just don't see that very often.

Two, look at what Washington's staff did last year to improve and hide the quality of their offensive line. I think what Cliff and Bobby Johnson did last season, they showed that they were a positive multiplier for their offensive line talent. And so I think that that's going to continue most likely, maybe not to the same extent, but I have a lot of inherent faith in that group. And the other part that I really like is that Washington isn't looking at what happened last year and saying, we can keep rolling with this to offensive line talent because these guys lift them.

They said, we need better offensive line talent that doesn't need to be lifted. They went out and traded for Laramie Tunsell. And I wouldn't be surprised if they drafted another offensive lineman high in this draft. So I think it's for all of those reasons that I don't think the surroundings will road in the same way. And that's why I don't think we'll run into a lot of the same. issues as CJ Stroud had last year. I think you make a good point that the bottom fell out so bad for Houston that it would be pretty shocking if that happened for Washington, right?

Like even if there were some level of regression, which I think I'm probably a little bit more open to than you might be. Like, I think what Cliff did last year was phenomenal. I think I'm still a little bit more in like, do it again mode with him. You know, I just, and we just haven't seen it for that long with him. So I think I just kind of want to see it for one year. I think he can do it, but it's just, again, I would like to see it more. I also think the Tunsel thing at left tackle is an upgrade.

He's also coming off of his worst season and was part of that offensive line that just got nuked in Houston. And so I do think he's going to be better than what they had. But I don't know if it's this like immediate solve all thing. And I do have some questions about the Debo same military receiver. So I think I would be shocked if there are anything worse than like an average offense. But I do think that we should be open to the idea that a couple of things going wrong. they could be average instead of a top five offense again.

But they won't be as bad as Houston last year. That's not happening. The Debo point is a very good one. And I think in some ways, if you look at the mistakes that Houston made last year and how they tried to wield the rookie quarterback money, I think the Debo move is a similarly dangerous move to what the Texans did with Stefan Diggs. Obviously, the Texans spent a ton more to get digs, et cetera.

And I think that when you have two receivers instead of three, you worry a little bit less about how all the pieces fit together, which I think is a problem in the way that the Texans were conceiving of that group last year. But I think that that's a good point to mention. I think that the cliff thing is also worth mentioning. And I think if we're going to see some regression from that offense, it's going to be that they succeeded in a very narrow way, right? We talked about this with Daniels,

where his deficiencies didn't matter that much because the strengths were so overwhelming. Well, maybe with another year of tape, if the offense doesn't evolve in the right way, the deficiencies or limitations that we have from him and Cliff start to matter more. But I still feel like that's going to be more of an impediment to them improving rather than the bottom falling out in the way that it did for Houston.

I think that's totally fair. And again, I don't think the bottom's going to fall out. I just, I think people should be a little bit more ready. Like, if they're the 12th best offense next year instead of the third best offense, like, don't freak out. Like it's everyone here is probably doing okay. That's just natural variance. Yes, exactly. I mean like that's like totally within the realm of outcomes for a second year quarterback, a second year play caller that again doesn't have elite talent all over the place. If Debo gets hurt and now we're back to and he does.

Terry McCorn and Noah Brown and, you know, the offensive line is still like it's a it's a B group at best and the run game isn't quite as dynamic as it was last year. Like you could absolutely see that playing out. but I just don't think we're going to see the type of slide that we saw because the circumstances in Houston were unique in a bunch of different ways. All right, guys, I'm going to take the reins here and say we're going to take a break and then we'll be back to answer some more questions. All right, guys, let's get back into it here. Chuck Ansbacher brings us our next question. Chuck says, I am a Packers fan and the Packers have a number of what could have Ben's in our recent draft history. These Packer fans that just bitching all the time about all the time. these 11 win seasons that they have to endure.

I swear to God. We're tired. We talked about it at the top with my Wisconsin stuff. I am a Chicago-born Wisconsin grad. I am not a Packers fan. I'm a Bears fan who went to school at Wisconsin. Telling me as Bears fans, you guys are tired of the organization that is strung to other three franchise quarterbacks.

The idea of winning double-digit games and making the playoffs every year sounds so terrible. My God. With the youngest roster in the league, by the way. The worst thing they could possibly have. happen. They're also probably fans of a baseball team that somehow has the lowest payroll year after year after year and rolls up 93 win seasons and wins of the division every year too. They're doing okay. They're doing okay in Wisconsin. Anyways, so we got Kevin King over T.J. Watt, Jordan Love instead of T. Higgins. Chuck would have preferred Higgins. And so we can talk about that a little bit.

Josh Myers instead of Creed Humphrey. Most recently, Jordan Morgan instead of Cooper DeGine. We've taken a lot of draft butts when the obvious all pro was sitting right there. And this isn't just hindsight, every Packers fan on the internet was turning in the T.J. Wad card when the Packers traded out of the 29th spot in 2017. Does every team have this volume of regrettable draft sliding door situations? Or is this just a team that, according to one study, to talk about that too, is the worst at drafting in the last decade? Now, there's a lot of false premises assumed in this question, but I thought it was fun to have in here because the way I was taking it was, well, even if some of their drafting has been very good or on balance, they have missed

you know, T.J. Watt, for example, would have been a great one for them. So which team has punched its fan base in the gut most often in recent draft memory, something I was thinking of. And then also, the inverse of this, a question from Vinsky-Vortainan. I'm asking you to name the three teams you trust the most when they are on the clock teams that just when you see their name up on the board, you know what they're doing. So a lot of going on here. But let's get into this, Robert, you can take this however you want to take it. The T. Higgins over Jordan love thing is crazy. So you'd rather be the Steelers right now. Even if you take issue with Jordan Love? Like, you still want a capable quarterback, and that's exactly

what Jordan Love is. I'm mostly kidding. Also, the study that he mentioned, I looked at this, saying the Packers are the worst drafting team of the decade. That study is based solely on postseason accolates. And according to postseason accolades, all pros, pro bowls, defense player of the year, et cetera, they have fewer of those than any team over the last decade. But that doesn't mean they're the worst drafting team of the last decade. If you go look at some other studies, ESPN did one, I think, like three years ago. So it was 2012 through 2021. And it was approximate value over expected based on draft slot. According to that, the Packers were fifth. Like they were the fifth best drafting team over that decade. Because if you're just doing

it solely by postseason awards, hitting on Zach Tom in the fifth round, even if he's not making the Pro Bowl, doesn't matter in that study. And that's where we sit with the Packers. That's what the Packers are as a drafting team. We've talked about this a ton over the last calendar year. They're not finding stars. They're finding good players. And so that's why they've run into the ceiling over and over again. But I don't think that means they're a bad drafting team by any stretch. If this was just for the first round, you could tell me that the Packers are one of the worst drafting teams.

But like every other round, they've been phenomenal. Like they find the Zach Tom's. They find, you know, your Tucker crafts on day two. They find all these receivers that can be useful pieces for them on day two. Like they do a pretty good job of consistently finding guys who at the very very very, least you want to roster and can be useful players and then find a majority of their starters this way. I will say that anecdotally when it comes to the gut punch stuff, it does seem like the Packers have a decent amount of them. I don't, when it's when it's across positions,

it's kind of like you needed a different thing. Like that doesn't worry me quite as much. Josh Myers right ahead of Creed Humphrey, that's one that'll keep you up at night like forever. And that's a tough one. We all knew that was bad in the moment. Because some of these you can look at the five years after the fact and be like, man, why'd they take that guy over that guy? And it's like, well, most people thought that guy was better. So it's not that crazy. I think every single person in the moment was like, wow, they took a center and it wasn't Creed Humphrey.

That's crazy. When it comes to the gut punch stuff, I think that my answer, just based on vibes, feel going back to the last few drafts, obviously you can't spend six hours, like, researching all of this to ever, like to the fullest extent. I think this happens a lot more than we think it does. And it happens to every single team. Like even doing half an hour of combing through the last five years of drafts, Emmanuel Forbes was picked like a pick before Christian Gonzalez.

That's another one that I don't understand in the moment. The Eagles did this twice. They picked Jalen Rager ahead of Justin Jefferson. And a couple years earlier, they picked JJ Arsthaga White's side in the same round that D.K. Metcalf went. Andy Isabella was picked directly before D.K. Metcalfe. Des Fitzpatrick went five picks before Amon Ross St. Brown. Like this stuff happens and this stuff happens to everyone.

And I think because the Packers don't have high-end talent, you feel it more. Because those guys, you're just, you're yearning for T.J. Watt type players because you don't have them. I think that's why Packer fans just kind of feel the hurt, maybe a little bit more than some of these other fan bases. Because if you're a team like the Bills and, you know, this happens every once in a while, you have fucking Josh Allen. So you don't think about it quite as often. But the Packers don't have those guys. And I think that's why that missing peace in like your soul, it hurts a little bit more for this fan base than some others.

But the Cowboys took Chaco Charlton instead of DJ Watt. Right. Like that's more the criminal one. For me, it is always like if I'm taking a player at the same position, that's where I can really get gripes with it. Because what was it for the Packers? It was Kevin King over T.J. Yide.

Like, yeah, that is obviously a bad pick. And they probably did need pass rush at the time. But if they were set on wanting a corner, it's like, I just, yeah, I don't know, man. It's, I'm usually only getting hung up on, like, cross or on the same position type deal. Emmanuel Forbes over Christian Gonzalez is a tough one. That was criminal in the moment, dude. Like, one, obviously, we know how much I love Christian Gonzalez. But as a sizest, Christian Gonzalez is like 6-1, 200 plus long arms.

And Emmanuel Forbes was like my height and weight. That's, that's just, it's hard to draft. Andy Isabel over D.K. McCaff one is another. one there for you. That's another bad one. That's that's another bad one. The Emmanuel Forbes over, Christian Gonzalez is another one of our like Dane's two nice moments because he was not happy about that but he, you know, he like talked his way around it during our draft show that year. Dave is too nice. We're going to have to work on that. I want Dane to bury more people on the draft show this year. We'll have a discussion with him about that next week. I love the second question by the way,

about which team do you feel best about? Because it's such a just a feel, thing. And I like think about it in those terms because I don't think I've ever thought about it in those terms. What is your answer, Derek? When a team is on the clock and you're like, I know I'm at least comfortable with the process here. Who is the first team that comes to mind for you? I think it's the Baltimore Ravens and it's not close. Not to say that other teams, not to say that other teams aren't really good drafting teams, right? But it's like, it's not even just that, and I think this is the reason I have the number one. It's not just that I trust that it'll be a good player. It's that when we get to the pick, you have a pretty good idea of who the player is going to be.

And then you already know going in that it's going to be good. Like again, the Hamilton Linderbomdraft, you knew at both of those spots who the pick was going to be based on who was left on the board. And you just have faith that that's who they're going to turn the card in for. And that's why to me they would be number one. I just think they pick players for the right reasons. Yeah. And that's why I support it.

I just support how they arrive at their decisions pretty thoroughly. The team that was second for me. And obviously, it's only been a few years of this kind of. earned confidence. To me, it's the alliance. And it's for the same reason. I just, I appreciate why they're seeking out these players. I think that they have such a distilled understanding of who they want to bring into their building and why that it just gives me a lot of faith in those moments when they're drafting those guys. And listen, that wasn't the case even a couple years ago. When they drafted Jamir Gibbs, when they drafted Sam Laporteur, when they drafted Jack Campbell in that draft, which we just got that

question about it. I was one of those people that was like, guys, are we sure? You still need some corners, still need some pass rushers. We feel good about this. But I think what they've done over the last couple years, they've earned it. I could not come up with a third team. Like there was a cluster for me in my third team. So this might be a hot take. And I would actually put them over the lines for me. And I know their last draft class was not that good. I would probably put the Cowboys. The Cowboys, sorry. The Cowboys were the first team I put in my list. They're a really good drafting team.

It's just that we don't love what they do. It's been a couple rough drafts. Well, it's been a couple. And also, I think some of it is that we're colored a little bit by the other stuff that that front office does, like not wanting to spend in free agency that much. And, you know, Jerry Jones just kind of being Jerry Jones. I think that sometimes we forget, if you look at a lot of their first round picks, they rip off all pro players.

And they've found guys at other points in the draft. I mean, they found a quarterback. in the fourth round. And they found some of these really, you know, quality contributors in, you know, on day two and stuff, especially on like the defensive line with like O'Digizua. So they to me do a pretty good job of finding like really high caliber talent in the draft. Who's your third team? It's probably the Lions.

The Packers, the first round is really hard to stomach. But everything else is so good that, again, I typically trust what they're going to do. If they can maybe just get a little bit luckier in the first round, I would feel good about it. them. So those are probably the ones. I think the toughest to me is the Rams actually. They've done very good recently. But before like 2022, it was pretty bad for a long time. They didn't have any picks. Well, but even before that, it was, I thought like not very good. Like I just, they've, they've done very good recently. They're like the inverse of the Cowboys for me where I didn't trust them for a long time. And then over the past three years, I trust them a lot. There's a cowboys I

trusted for a long time. And recently it's like, we'll see. It's very funny that you mentioned those team. So the way that I have it in my notes is I have Ravens won lines too on their own lines. And those are the first two I thought of. Line three is Cowboys, Packers, Rams, Bucks. Oh, Bucks is another good one. That's another good one. Though they're all kind of like clustered together for different reasons. But those are the four teams that I had there. And I think my journey with the Rams is similar to what you're talking about, where it's really just the last couple of years. It's like, I think they just kind of know what they want. think they understand what they're going after. That being said, they tried to trade up for Brock

Bowers last year, which is fine. But that's just a very different process than the one that we were talking about with the two defensive linemen that they picked. They're just hard to pin down. I can't articulate why I have faith in them, but I think that I do. I guess that's where I land. So that's the thing. They're trickier to pin down like, when are they going to go up? When are they going to go down? Are they even going to have their first round pick this year? Like them trading picks from this year's draft last year to go get Braden Fisk. It's like, Like in the second round, it's like, I didn't know they were going to do that. Like I just, I think that's why the Ravens again are just their process of when they want to move, why they're moving who it's for.

It just, it's just got this rhythm to it that I feel comfortable with every year. Okay, the next question here comes from Tim Butler. Tim says a few years ago, we used to hear a lot more about the value of the fifth year option when it came to teams trading back into the end of the first round. It seems that trend has shifted in the past few years. but do you think in a draft light on talent at some high value positions, we could see more action with picks 26 to 32 to secure a quarterback, left tackle, wide receiver, and get that extra year of control. Derek, what do you got here?

I, the only way that you could kind of get me online with this is that positions like quarterback and like tackle even, they can have such a long runway that you would maybe want a little bit more time to understand like, okay, we want to see if we can secure one more cheap year of him just to like continue the development path. But I think outside of quarterback like securing the cheap year is not really that big of deal. I think for the most part, you just, yeah, I, this to me was just, I don't think it's

going to be a thing that people are going to zag on. If they think that they can trade up into the end of the first round and it'll cost them fewer picks than in previous years, then I think that that would be a good reason to go and trade. But I think outside of quarterback, you're just not getting like, you saw it really worth it for that to be your sole driver to move up. I just don't think we see teams doing this because the fifth year option has materially changed over the last five drafts. And I don't think we've really talked much about this on the show. And that's why I think it's a good thing to hit.

The 50 year option is materially different with the new CBA than it was in the previous version of the CBA when the rookie salary scale was introduced. Under that, the fifth year option was not guaranteed. So now having to guarantee the fifth year option. it leads to a lot more risk if you're going to pick it up. So that's one reason where it's less valuable. The other reason is that the fifth year option used to be based on where you were picked in the draft. So if you were a top 10 pick and your fifth year option was picked up,

I believe the number was the transition tag. If you were picked 11 through 32 and your fifth year option was picked up, the number was the average of I think the third through 25th highest salaries at your position. Now it's based on production. So if you're a two-time pro bowler, even if you were the 28th pick in the draft, the franchise tag is now the fifth year option number. If you were a one-time pro bowler, the transition tag is now the option number. So think about the difference of that.

If you hit on a wide receiver with a 27th pick in the draft, and he was Justin Jefferson. So let's say Justin Jefferson, in theory, was drafted in 2017 instead of 2020, and it was under the old rules. the third through 25th salaries for a guy like Justin Jefferson, that's an immense bargain. Now you're paying the franchise tag in Year 5 and it's fully guaranteed. So the savings just aren't even in the same stratosphere. And so that's why I think that the value of the fifth year option overall has just been diminished to a point that it's not worth seeking out with the same gusto.

If the player is that good, it might just be better for you to just extend them as soon as possible. Like sometimes you don't even bother with the option. They're just like, just get them on the books. that'll be that and we just won't have to think about it. Yeah. So I just think that the fifth year option has changed to such a degree that teams probably aren't thinking about it in those terms anymore because there's not a lot of value to be added. All right. Danny Gregory comes with our next question. Danny says my question for you is do NFL teams ever or should they ever consider their division opponents or any team they are trying to beat

when going through the team building process? For example, as a commander's fan, while the team has glaring issues at edge and corner, after listening to analysis on this, draft class, I would be very tempted to take the best offensive lineman available. Tyler Booker is appealing, considering the commanders have to deal with Jalen Carter and Dexter Lawrence twice a year for the foreseeable future. Similarly, if Josh Simmons or Josh Connolly are there, it would make sense to me to add tackle help when you have Micah Parsons, Nolan Smith, Abdul Carter, and a number of high-end pass rushers trying to maim the best thing to happen to Washington, D.C. football in 30 years. What do you got in this one, Robert? Should teams be

thinking about the teams they're trying to get through when they're sitting there on draft night? I think they do a little bit. I mean, the most famous example of this, remember in the 2005 draft when Reggie Bush was one of the best college football players we'd ever seen, and the Texans took Mario Williams, and part of the reasons that they took Mario Williams is that, well, we have to play against Peyton Manning.

You know, like, we have to affect Peyton Manning. And I do think teams think about this to an extent. You know, when you talk about them, they'll talk about the teams in their division. How much they should, I don't know, build a good team. Yes. You have to beat teams outside of your division to do anything meaningful anyway. So I just don't think I'd be putting it in those terms if I was worrying about.

I would be trying to build the best football team I possibly could, independent of the teams I was having to play twice a year. Right. You can only kind of get me there with maybe specific quarterbacks are going to deal with specific types of defenses, not all that well. Maybe you want to shape your defensive identity that way. that's the only way I can get on board with it. But if it's like, oh, X team, two teams in our divisions have elite pass-dusters. It's like, well, if you look at most divisions, they're going to have a lot of really good pass-darsters. All the teams you're playing in the NFC championship game.

They're probably going to have good players. Exactly. So it's just build the best team. And the reason I would not want to be too heavy on like, oh, we got to build around what the other teams in our division are doing, you probably just lose sight of what you want to be. And me, in terms of any competitive sports. games, video games, whatever, you want to be on the front foot. You want to be dictating things to your opponent. So just build the team in a way that you think you can dictate the game over them as

opposed to just answering however it is that they've built their team. Yeah. If I were Washington and I were thinking about building a team to beat the Eagles, it would be because the Eagles are the best team in the NFC, not because the Eagles played in my division. And it's, you don't build the team to, okay, how can we stop the things? that the Eagles are doing best. No, it's just how do we create a superpower that can also go toe to toe with what the Eagles are doing.

Yeah, because let's say you play the Eagles in the divisional round and then you play the Rams in the NFC championship game. Those are very different teams. Yep. Like materially different teams. So I think just building the best, most flexible team you possibly can should probably be your North Star at all times, independent of the teams on your schedule, et cetera.

I will say, I'll throw this out here now because it's semi-relevant, and I thought it was really interesting, and I don't know if there will be another place to put it. I was talking to an offensive coordinator at the combine. And we were discussing how you install an offense and how you teach an offense and all the different considerations for how that teaching progression happens.

And he said, yeah, you know, one of the things I look at is the teams in my division or the teams on my schedule. And I was like, I was like, interesting, why? Like, why would that shape the way that you teach the offense either to your staff or to your players? And he said, well, if we're running like a certain version of fourverts, and that version of fourverts is not applicable to certain versions of cover three that we would see.

And I look at my schedule and I don't see a single team that's going to play that version of cover three over the course of the entire season. I can move that version of the play down and the teaching progression because it's less important than other versions of that will be based on who we're playing during the season. I've never heard a coach say that before. It was the first time I'd heard that. And I thought that was a real level of depth and thinking about how you're installing things that was pretty impressive. But that's the type of stuff where I do think there might be value in that. But that's not based on how you're building a team. You know, that's just like a little tiny different way to think about it.

That's right. That's just game playing stuff. But that's fascinating. I don't think I've ever considered like if I were to be a coach, I would have never considered something like that, like building it to be the schedule. And that's also probably good, not just for, okay, we've got the right stuff early. but if you have all the right stuff early, you're probably going to play better early and there is an element of like just building confidence,

especially if you have a younger team. Like that could be a really good thing. So like that's a pretty fascinating way to build your offensive game plan. It's just about maximizing time on task, right? So if you're, why work on something during training camp that is never going to be important

as you move through this season because it's never a version of the play that you're going to have to tap into? So I just thought that was interesting. Again, I've had hundreds of conversations with offensive coaches over the last. last 15 years. And I've never heard somebody say that before. And so I just thought that was like particularly incisive. All right, guys. Next question comes to us from Dave Hindden. Now, this is

admittedly a silly question, but I thought it was just like a perfect thing to get into a mailback. I see what you, I see you, Robert, but this is like a, this is a fun thing that, you know, I've never thought about it before. It's, it's a great thing to include, but I think that my initial reaction is how I feel about it. Yeah. It's a silly thought exercise. I've never, this has never even occurred to me that a team would think about this. and maybe that's for obvious reason. Here's what Dave says. I've been thinking about a trade market that currently doesn't exist.

Players that absolutely crushed their rookie season. Guys like Jared Verse, Quinyon Mitchell, Brock Bowers, Brian Thomas Jr. I'm an Eagles fan, so my initial thought was, wouldn't it make total sense for the Eagles to give up as much or more for Jaredverse compared to what people were speculating it would have cost to get Miles Garrett? This year's first plus the first and the third next year, done deal. Jared Versively paid $6.5 million over the next three seasons, with so many huge contracts already on the books,

bolstering a position of value for essentially no money would be worth sending serious trade compensation. Obviously, this doesn't make any sense for the Rams now that they brought Stafford back, but in a world where Stafford really did go to New York this off season, the Rams could have gotten all the future capital in whatever draft they wanted to land their next QB. Brian Thomas Jr. is set to make $6.4 million over the next three years. What would that be worth to a team like the Chiefs, Ravens, Bills, in the cycle of team building that they are currently in? Anyway, just wanted to get your thoughts on this current non-existent trade market

and see if you were as fascinated about the possibility as I am. What do you got, Robert? My response to this is from Game Night where Jesse Plemons is standing there in the driveway and he said, how could that possibly be profitable for Frito Lai? Like, how could that be possibly profitable for the Rams? If you get a fur, if you get, and the quarterback thing is actually an interesting wrinkle to this where, okay, we need to find a quarterback. Is it worth loading up on capital to find the quarterback?

That to me is a semi-defensible argument. But at the same time, like, let's say you're a player in the Rams locker room and Jared versus the defensive rookie of the year. And they just trade him for picks. I think that is a consideration here. But also, even if we're moving the quarterback part of this, let's say you get two first and a third for Jared verse. In the best case scenario, those picks get you Jared verse again. Yeah. Like that's what you're hoping for at the end of this.

If you are, if you have Jared verse and he has four cheap years on the deal, the NFL, the runways are not that long to rebuild. Like you're hoping to be competitive again in two years. There's a very good chance that Jared versus still going to be cheap by the time you're ready to once again be a functional football team. So even if you're in a state of semi rebuilding, I still feel like the young cost control building blocks are going to be important to you. They're arguably more important to you than they would be for some other team.

So I just don't understand why this would be beneficial to the team. teams trading away these sorts of players, although I will concede that the quarterback point and trying to find the capital for the quarterback, is it a worthwhile footnote in this conversation? I tried to look at it from the other perspective, where if I'm one of those teams trading to three first round picks for one of these players, who is cheap and young and ascending and stuff, like, would it be worth it? And the chiefs, I think, are, of course, a good example.

I think he brings up, you know, Brian Thomas Jr., you know, potentially playing for the chiefs. So let's say, given that Brian Thomas Jr. was an incredible rookie, he's going to be super cheap. Let's say this costs you two first round picks and change. Like maybe another day two pick, maybe, you know, whatever it is. For as good as Brian Thomas Jr. is and would be for that team, especially as a downfield stretcher, they're the chiefs. And there's already evidence that they can make the Super Bowl like every year, if not every other year.

I wouldn't want to leverage that much of my future capital for one player who is like we're going all in on this window when you're the chiefs. the window's always open. Like, you don't have to do this. And so I just, I think I struggle giving up that much draft capital for anything but a quarterback. This reminds me, it just brings me back to like the Simmons thing where it's like, who says no? Both teams.

Yeah, both. Yeah, everybody. Both teams say no in these circumstances. I think more often than not. It's a great question, though. It's like, this is exactly why we do this. It's a perfect mailback question, even if I do think that it's probably a little bit silly. Mm-hmm.

We're going to take one more quick break here and then get back with our last couple questions. All right, what's our next one here? Okay, Patrick Lyons says, as a longtime listener, I am familiar with the idea of teams eating their veggies when it comes to the draft. However, I'm curious about your thoughts on picks that throw caution to the wind, the type that is objectively fun and exciting, but probably not the best for you like the 10 p.m. Pine of ice cream before bed. So my question is this. What are some of your favorite unhinged and fun players for teams in the upcoming draft, regardless of prudence? as a Bengals fan minus Colston Loveland at 17 or Trayvion Henderson at 49.

Absolutely nonsensical, but extremely fun. Derek, what are you thinking on this one? Yeah, I've got a few. I think Ashton Genti you could like plug into any number of teams and it would probably be applicable. I think the earliest he could come off the board is potentially at five to Jacksonville, which I think would be probably a little bit crazy. But I am trying to imagine what he could look like in Liam Cohen's offense. And I kind of love his rushing style with that offense.

So I think that is one. There's been a lot of smoke, it seems, with Jalen Walker to the Patriots, which isn't one I love, but definitely feels like them not taking their veggies and just taking the cool shiny toy. So that could be one. And then for me, one that I love and I really don't think they're going to do because they have so many other issues. But the Niners are picking 11th. And they've had a lot of linebackers leave their building. If they took Jahad Campbell to put him next to Fred Warner, I would go nuclear.

I think it would be so, so cool. I don't think they would do it, but I'm trying to imagine what it would look like, and I'm having trouble containing myself. I'm having trouble figuring out if that's the most Derek Classen thing that's ever been said on the athletic football show. Taking a linebacker at 11th to put him next to the best linebacker already? Yes. Taking Jehad Campbell and putting him next to Fred Warner and having that be your dream in the

world is probably the most you thing that's ever happened on this program. Listen, one of my favorite football watching experiences ever was those few years, where Luke Keekeley and Thomas Davis were just dominating people, I think you could get something pretty close to that with like Fred Warner, Jihad Gamble. There's something there. I've never really thought about it in these exact terms before, but those linebacker duos where you have two guys that are both dynamic,

but stylistically a little bit different, those are some of the most aesthetically fun football experiences you can have. Think about how many you can list off. The Niners over the last five years, Drake Greenlaw and Patrick and Fred Warner, Patrick Willis and Navarro Bowman, Lou Keakley and Thomas Davis, Lance Briggs and Brian Urlacher is one that comes to mind for me. Like, those are very, very fun sorts of teams. Bobby Wagner and KJ. Wright.

Yeah, like, those guys were incredible. Yeah. I don't, I can't articulate why that hits my brain in such a pleasing way. When you have teams that have two guys at that position, again, they're just a, little bit different, but still bring like a cohesive energy that's additive to one another. There's just something very beautiful about that. I think we just see it less often. Right?

Like with receiver duos, there's always five at a given time in the league where it's like, okay, these are two awesome duos and they complement each other. Or at tackle, you'll have plenty of teams who have a good left and a right or pass grocery you'll have good ones. But you just don't see the elite linebacker duo quite as much. Jamie Collins and Dante Hightower is a fun one. That's another. They were sick for a minute there.

I'm sure I'm missing a hundred of them. But you mentioning Luke Kee Kleeckley and Thomas Davis, I think definitely got me going there. Gentie is the name I kept coming back to. Like, Genty to the Bears is an example of this. Like, Genty to the Bears is extremely fun when you consider some of the other pieces that they have. Level into the Bengals is a really good one. The one that I came back with, though, is what if you just drop Gentie behind the Panthers offensive line?

And you just said, like, we don't give a shit about the other running backs we have on this team or what we've invested in it. we just want to drop this guy into what we currently have. That's a really fun one. There aren't that many other ones that came to mind for me. Just because I think that a lot of the teams in the top end of the draft, because like let's say, I don't know, I'm trying to find a good, let's say you dropped like one of the tight ends or one of like the big time receivers

onto a team that already has receiving talent. A lot of those guys are going to be gone by the time we get to the teams with good receivers. So maybe if fun, we'll be like, what if the Falcons just took Colson Loveland and just ejected Kyle Pitts and was just like, out we're done with this, something like that. But a lot of the guys who are the fun, shiny objects, I think will be gone by the time we get to a team with enough strengths where it would be a luxury. Yeah, that's kind of where I sit. And also, this one wouldn't be a reach, but I am also imagining, like, what if one of the pass rushers falls to Houston and you just add

like a third and a fourth guy into into that lineup? I think that would be fun. They don't really need it, but I kind of agree with that. But at the same time, I, I think that my version of that is the Texans taking a defensive tackle. Like if the Texans just took Derek Harmon, but you can make a very real argument that they need a player like that. Their interior guys are guys that are on the last year of their contracts or their stopgap players, Sheldon Rankins, Niaco, Audrey, Tim Settle, whatever.

We had, I don't, I can't remember who Trevor picked, Bellar. Did he pick an interior defensive lineman for the Texans? I'm going to pull it up. Give me one second. No, he picked John. Josh Simmons. He picked Josh Simmons for the Texans, which I think is still correct. But we had like a very considered conversation on the clock this week when the Texans were on the clock about whether an interior defensive line was the right pick for them.

And that seems like a hat on a hat when you consider the other defensive players they have. But in reality, they kind of do have a need for a player at that position. Yeah. Okay. I actually, I have one more. And they could kind of use a player like this. so you could make the case that it's not that against taking your vegetables, but the Cardinals need like 800 things. But if they took like Matthew Golden, that would feel a little bit to me like not eating your vegetables. And you could still make the case that he's a useful player for them.

But when they still need offensive line, almost every position on defense, taking the receiver would be like, do you really need to do that? But it would be fun. That's a very good one. But I think you could justify that. You could,

but it's still a little like, we didn't need to do that, guys. Okay, guys. Last question, Jacob Finley says with Ashton Genti probably going in the top 10 of this year's draft looking more and more at his footage and how cool and unique of a player he is, I was reminded of something Robert said in an episode a little while back about running backs. There's not many other positions in football where individual players have a style and uniqueness to how they play quite like running back.

It's not always something that is easy to describe, but you can really see it and feel it. So my question to you is this. What are your all-time favorite running backs based purely on what it was like to watch them run and feel their style. And also, are there any running backs you think their style of play has become slightly misunderstood over time? Jacob wants you guys to know that his personal favorite for style watching, Nick Chubb, and feels like Marshawn Lynch has become a little bit misunderstood over time.

Robert, what do you got here? It's a great question. It really is. I don't have interesting answers. Like, I think I'd just immediately go to the guys who felt like forces of nature. I was a freshman in college in 2006. And so that was the first time I played in like a kind of intense fantasy football league. I remember it was in the Mark Twain dorm at the University of Missouri.

We did our draft in like the lounge up on the seventh floor where I lived. And so I was paying attention to the NFL holistically that season in a way I probably never was before where I was seeing it more through like a bear centric lens. Watching Ladani and Tomlinson during that stretch of his career was like a transcendent. experience. He was just such a special player because he did everything well, everything. Everything you could want a running back to be Ladani and Tomlinson was that player. And it also, it's a combination of that plus the aesthetic. Like the Chargers uniforms, the visor, like everything about Latani and Tomlinson made him the coolest player in any given moment on a football field. And so that one comes to mind for me.

And then early Adrian Peterson, it would, I, There wasn't anything like it. I mean, just like watching him play. And I remember even I was in college again during that time. And I was going to a Big 12 school when Adrian Peterson was in the Big 12th. And so watching Adrian Peterson as a freshman at Oklahoma, it was just like, holy shit. Like this is, he could play in the NFL right now. Like he was just one of those guys that as an 18 year old, you could have dropped him into the league.

He would have been absolutely fine. So just what it felt like to watch those early season, early career Adrian Peterson seasons, where it's just the power of it. It was like watching Secretariat. Like it was just truly like a visceral experience watching him play the position. So I'm going with those two guys, which seems stupid considering they're both like Hall of Fame players. Those aren't interesting answers. But those are the first guys that come to mind.

It would be bad if we didn't mention LT. I mean, LT was it's not like you said, it's not just that he was incredible. One, okay, you said he did everything you want him to do. He did everything you don't even necessarily need or want a running back to do. He threw like seven career touchdowns, which is completely ridiculous. And then again, the aesthetic. Like he, him and Vic to me growing up were just the two coolest like, oh my God, this guy is, I would want to be this guy. Same draft, right?

I think so actually. Yeah, that sounds about right. And so for them to, yeah, come into the league at the same time when I'm growing up was like, those two are just are different. Yeah, I've got a few. And Thomason was the fifth pick in that draft. It was a 2001 draft. It's hell of a top five there. I've got a few out.

As far as the misunderstood guys, I think Derek Henry was misunderstood even coming out of college. Like you just look at him, right? And he should be Brandon Jacobs. But he's not. He's like Chris Johnson, but 250 pounds for some reason. He's a guy who is in outside zone, hit the gap, gone, hit the edge type of runner. And he's really a home run hitter. And I think he's kind of always been misunderstood.

But I think finally now that he's played for an elite team, we've kind of come around on that. I think Kyron Williams is actually mildly misunderstood. He's, you know, smaller guy. You think he's this finesse like all stuff. And he does have good vision and footwork. But he tries to run through people, dude. Like he really tries to play like he is Marshawn Lynch. And so I think he is mildly misunderstood.

As far as guys who I just absolutely loved watching, my one that like at the peak of of how good they were, Ezekiel Elliott just had this, his footwork as a runner in terms of sometimes you talk about running backs as like a, a slalom runner where just like they get that bend to the way that they're moving. Elliot did that, I think, better than anyone I've ever seen. Bejohn Robinson is pretty close, but those two guys were special for that. And then my one further down the list that I just loved watching for some reason, Javid Best was such a cool, cool player to me.

Javid Best. Dude, I don't know what it was when I was, I mean, you know, he was in the league when I was like 10, 11, 12 years old or whatever it was. But he just had this style, this pop to the way that he ran that I just, I've been chasing that. I want a player like that again. He was so cool. I'm glad you mentioned Ezekiel Elliott and Tyron Smith retired this week. And so the 2016 Cowboys are, I think, my favorite team I've ever watched to run the football. Just that running game that year specifically with rookie Ezekiel Elliott and that offensive line.

So that offensive line was Tyron Smith at left tackle, Ronald Leary at left guard. Ronald Lerie at his best was like a real fucking player. He was really good. Travis Frederick at center, Zach Martin at right guard, and Doug Free had some like really nice seasons at right tackle for that Cowboys team. So that team specifically,

and even going back a little bit further, like the DeMarco Murray Cowboys teams with like a good chunk of that offensive line, I loved watching those teams run the football. That's still probably since I started covering the NFL, like essentially full time in 2012, the 2016 group of the Cowboys Offensive Line, I think is my favorite offensive line that I've ever watched.

Oh, that's a good one. In terms of purely just the offensive line talent, that is probably the answer for me. I'm trying to think of what or maybe some of my favorite run games overall that I've seen. I really loved that the early era, Sean McVeigh, Todd Gurley stuff, where it was just, they were the best week zone team that we've ever seen and Gurley just hits the hole and he is gone. Those teams were really, really cool. I mean, my answer for that is this is like, You mentioned his name already.

You go back to the Alex Gibbs, Michael Vick, Warwick Dunn, T.J. Duckett, Falcons. Those, those, that was just chef's kiss, beautiful. Like, that to me is like what football was supposed to be. That beautiful stuff. Let me chime in here with, uh, I have four guys who come to mind here. First of all, got to give us the obligatory Barry Sanders mention. I was like, I'm, I'm not quite that old who have enjoyed his like prime, prime, but enough of the tail end of his prime.

Yeah. that it was just like ridiculous to watch. Jamal Charles. Jamal Charles is a perfect one. Jamal Charles is one of my all time favorite NFL players. Just an absolute legend. Peak Levyon Bell with the supreme patience to get absolutely everything out of every play. And then Stephen Jackson's willingness to be like, yeah, I'll take the ball 30 times.

Another great one. That's the most violent. Give me 20 carries and eight targets. Like, yeah, that's cool. Week in and week out. Just those are the guys who immediately come. to mind for me. Stephen Jackson was awesome. Also, aesthetically, Stephen Jackson was just such a different sort of player who was so big. And I watched the amount of Los Angeles or the amount

of St. Louis Rams football games I watched from like 2006 through 2010 while I was going to school in Missouri. Those teams were horrendous, horrendous. But Stephen Jackson was just the only saving grace about them. And so I just, I really gained an affinity for Stephen Jackson during that stretch. Two more guys, I will mention, Jamal Charles is such a great example. I love. loved watching Jamal Charles play. That game Jamal Charles had against the Raiders is still, like, to me, one of the best single performances I've ever watched from an NFL player. And then the last one, we're just talking about both the running back and watching the running game. I've talked about this team a lot, but the 2008 and 2009 Houston Texans are one of my

favorite football teams ever. So it was Kyle Shanahan as like a 28 and 29 year old offensive coordinator. They had a really good offensive line. And that was still like Gary Kubiak died in the wall outside zone. And so it was Aryan Foster and his running style behind that offensive line was just gorgeous. And then you had Andre Johnson as like the perfect ex receiver in a Shanahan offense. And I thought that Matt Schaub stylistically was just a great quarterback for that sort of offense. So those teams as like, I was going to say they were like the seven seconds or less sons. The Seven Second Second Second West Sons were actually good. Like they like went to cover like went to that like the Western Conference finals.

Winning MVP's. Yes. The 2008, 2009 Texans are like a more hipster version of that sort of team that I still like deeply love. I think I have one more. And this is again one that was like when I was growing up. I just thought he was the coolest player. Edron James for the for the colds. He was something.

Because they didn't really start, you know, winning the winning Super Bowls until. after that when it was Joseph Adi and all that stuff. But Edron James was, he was something. I remember having vividly, I remember where this conversation took place. It was in like a little lobby area in the Vikings facility. I was doing a story about Kevin Stefanski, his first year as an offensive coordinator. And it was interesting in that moment is because he was going to run like the Kubiak offense, but wasn't a member of the tree.

He had grown up in the Vikings organization. He worked for Brett Childress. Like that was his first boss. And so he was more like a West Coast guy than he was a Kubiak. guy. And I was asking him, like, how did you come to this place where you wanted to run this sort of offense? And he said that when he was an assistant, like a lower level assistant in like 08 and 09, he did a study on all of the keepers, like the boots from those Texans teams. And he was like, this is the coolest version of football, like this. And hearing another human being say that to me

was one of the most rewarding things that's ever happened as a football fan. I was like, you understand me, sir. We understand each other because I 100% agree with that. So those teams just hold a very special place in my heart. All right. That is all we've got today. Guess what guys? It's draft week. We got the draft in three days live on YouTube, 7.30 p.m. Eastern. Me, Dane, Derek, Bruce Feldman coming to you from Chicago, breaking down every single pick of the first round. Please come hang out with us. We would love you guys to spend the time. We will be back on Friday night. Me, Dane, Derek, a bunch of people from the athletic newsroom, 6.30 p.m. Eastern, breaking down every single pick from rounds two and three. Got a fun slate of shows this week. I think we got a show every day, right, Beller? Isn't that the

plan? Tomorrow we got on the clock with Mike Runner breaking down the rest of the first round. Wednesday, we have me, Dane, Brandon Thorne, breaking down this offensive line class. And then Thursday, We are doing our biggest questions heading into the draft I've done that show every single year that we've been doing this with Dane, love doing that show in the lead up to the draft. And then obviously we will have our live draft shows coming to you guys on Thursday and Friday.

So a ton of great stuff on tap today. Please come check all of it out for now. That's all we got. Appreciate you listening. We'll talk to you soon.