The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Monday Mailbag: Winning without star power, the worst team Patrick Mahomes could take to the Super Bowl, love for Nick Chubb and more

Episode Date: June 19, 2023

Robert Mays and Nate Tice open up the TAFS mailbag on this episode of The Athletic Football Show, covering questions on how far a team can go without a true star, the worst team Patrick Mahomes could take to the Super Bowl, Nick Chubb's trajectory toward being an all-time great, and more.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Nate on Twitter: @Nate_TiceSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeStay cool and dry all summer with Birddogs and get a FREE Yeti-style tumbler at birddogs.com/athletic use promo code ATHLETIC at checkout Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today. It's my good friend Nate Tyson. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing very well. This will be a fresh mailbag.

Fresh mailbag. Fresh mail bag. This is not one that we put in the freezer for a couple of weeks and we're microwaving and putting out on a Monday. This is a fresh and tasty one. Maybe one day's leftovers one for this mailbag. So, no, I, I'm doing great, though. I actually have what to the Knights State?

Golden Knight Stanley Cup parade yesterday. How was it? I mean, hockey parades, I'm sure, just absolutely a wild because hockey fans are a certain type of person. And a Vegas hockey fan is a certain type of person. It was a party. I mean, obviously it's in Vegas, but they, it was great. It was cool.

It was like a community event. I mean, honestly, it really, it was awesome. It was cool. Like people are very proud to be from Vegas now. And that's what a sports team can do. And that's what I was like a winning sports team really does bring a community together. It's like, yeah, this is awesome.

Like going around, I'm friends with a few Vegas locals and we're walking around and they're running into high school friends. They're people from work and it's kind of cool. It's like everyone was there except for my wife and my son. But it was honestly, it was a fantastic time. So very, very good weekend, very good Father's Day weekend. I have never been to a championship parade because all of the championship parades that have happened in Chicago, I've been gone. So when the Cubs won in 2016, I literally, I don't know if I've told the story before, but that, game six was happening and I was supposed to fly to LA the next morning for meetings at

the ringer in 2016 and we had planned this months in advance that I was supposed to go and when it was clear that the Cubs were going to win game six I texted Simmons and I was just like I'm not coming tomorrow I'm not coming I'm watching game seven with my friends in Chicago so I had to change my flight like the morning after game seven so I was up writing until like two a m and then I got on like a seven a.m. flight and I was there for three or three four days, so I missed the parade. And then when the Blackhawks won in a couple different times, I was gone. In 2010, I was living in Boston, working at the globe. My inner trip out of college. And then when they won again, I was living in L.A. So I just have never been in Chicago when they've won one. So yet to attend a championship parade, hopefully one day.

I remember when the Blackhawks won in Chicago, of course, was just a big party. And I remember my friends that lived there to say, if the Cubs ever win, the city will burn. Like that would be this. I'm still shocked that the second Chicago fire it didn't happen after the Cubs won because that could have been a crazy day. It should have been a crazy day. It probably was. I was in Wrigleyville that night and it was pretty crazy. But thankfully, everything, the structural integrity of the buildings was maintained. All right.

It's all that brick. We've got a couple more mailbags before you go out for a while. This is the second to last one that we're going to do. Again, just thank you to everyone who sent in the questions. Always appreciate it. Not a lot of voicemails today because Beller, unfortunately, is doing Father's Day stuff. We're recording this on Sunday. so we don't have as much technical capabilities

as we typically would. We're going to save a lot of the voicemails for next week's show. So don't worry. We'll be hearing from a lot of you relatively soon. We're going to start with a question I really, really liked here

from Ryan Jones. He says, Lions fan here. It's been an exciting offseason with both local and national media treating the Lions as genuine NFC contenders, but I can't shake one concern. I'm not sure they have any stars. Sure they have solid ascending players

at premium positions. I'm on Ross St. Brown, Penny Sewell, Atenhamson. But unless someone takes the next step, they don't have a player who can routinely take over games. Ragnow, the center, might be their only top five player

at his position. Can you think of any teams in recent memory that have found postseason success by relying on grit and cohesion at the expense of star power? And in today's NFL, is there a ceiling

for a team like the Lions? Really like this question a lot. It was good. I'm going to push back that about the top five at some of those. Sewell is easily top five at his position.

At right tackle? He's a top right tackle. It's super sexy, yes, Pena Sewell. And, you know, Jonah, obviously. But, of course, that's three offensive linemen. You know, that's really sexy and star power. I know that. And Aiden Hutchison won defense a rick in the year.

So I know he acknowledged these things. And Amon Raus St. Brown was second team all pro for you. And I feel like for a few others as well. He's an advanced statistical darling. I'm sure you'll hear us talk about him plenty of times this year. But great question because where my mind went to was the NBA with the Pistons. It's the first thing. Really?

Yes. That's the only thing I thought of. What is the NFL version of the 2004 Pistons? It's essentially the first thing I thought of. And is there one? I like teams that maybe won a playoff game or two is kind of what I was looking at, you know, some playoff success in like the 2019 Titans.

Like that's like the only one that really came. But there was a young AJ Brown, a young, their rookie AJ Brown, a young, um, uh, Jeffrey Simmons. They only had, they had two pro bowlers, Derek Henry. So I guess that has some star power. And their punter was their other pro, was their other pro bowler. I should say, oh, I'm sorry, all pros.

And then Tannenhill, Drow Casey were alternate pro bowlers. So, you know, so like that kind of was won because they had some success. The 2010 Seahawks didn't have a pro bowler. They just shouldn't even made the playoffs. And weren't they seven and nine? Yeah. Seven and nine. That was the Beastquake game, you know, against the Saints.

And that was great because then my dad was with the Bears at that time. So we got to play them the week after the Beast Quake game. It was fantastic. It was like, oh, going against the seven and nine team in the second round of the playoffs. I was there. I was at that game. I was too. That was a great.

that was one of the most sidebar one of the most easy going playoff games ever been around it was it was a breeze and it was the vibe in the stadium was amazing i mean that that team they played really well that week that bears did on offense especially played fantastic that week so it was a very good memory for me mike because that was when the legion of boom was starting to get they were figuring out their their three match ways and i remember my dad just going like but the thing is they don't have the horses to do what they want to do and i remember my dad being like so he wasn't like that worried yeah It was a playoff game. He was still stressed, but to lesser extent. But really, to answer this question, my long-winded way is, like, I don't have one that made it all the way to the, you know, the Super Bowl maybe that didn't have the star power, but those, that Titans, that Seahawks examples, the only ones that came to mind as far as, like, maybe win a playoff game or two. And maybe the Giants last year might be another one, like that won a playoff game that

doesn't have the overwhelming star power that maybe we're talking about. I think you can make an argument that some of those, like the 2011 giants might be one of those teams, especially on offense. They didn't have a lot of stars. They had defensive players that were star-level players. And that's kind of my problem here is that it's a lot of units, but not full teams. Okay. So a few examples that I threw out, the Patriots minus Brady several different times.

But the best quarterback of all time is offsetting that lack of star power at other positions. One of the most marketable athletes of all time. Yeah. You look at the 2018 Patriots, and it's like, yeah, they don't really have that. It's Gilmore and Brady. But it's Brady. So it's hard to really lump them in there. And then others in the last like five, six years.

I mean, I looked at teams that like went to the Super Bowl. Yeah. And again, certain position groups are certain sides of the ball, absolutely. Like the 2019 Niners, okay, were second in the NFL and scoring. They did not have stars outside of George Kittle. That was pre-Dibo. Trent Williams wasn't even there yet. And that was Kittles' breakout year, right?

Yeah. That was, yeah. So it's kind of like he wasn't a true star yet, quote unquote. But that's the best example I can find because that is a, essentially your offensive coordinator and your scheme becomes really the most important factor in what your offensive success looks like. And I think the lions are kind of like that. Running game, you're creating things, you know, via design in the same way that those Niners teams did. But that 2009 Niners defense had tons of stars on it. That's Nick Bosa.

That's Fred Warner is ascending there. So it's really just the offense. another kind of good example that I think is actually probably more true because of how they won in the playoffs, the 2021 Bengals. Yeah, that was one I came to mind, especially the defense. Well, it's just the defense, but the defense is how they won in the playoffs. So they essentially got to the Super Bowl with this collection of defensive players that really had no stars on it. But the only reason that they had gotten that far is because their quarterback was, again, an ascending superstar. And they had this ultra explosive offense for most of the season.

So what do you do with that? The one I actually thought was really interesting, again, just on offense and through line here, the Jared Gough Rams. Right. Right. So it's a bunch of kind of like good to very good players as opposed to stars. Yeah. And it's through design and it's mostly just by the overall, like the overall structure of the offense. So you have.

Like McVeigh was the star. Exactly. In the same way that Ben Johnson can be for this Lions team a little bit. But then you look at on defense and they have Aaron Donald. and a lot of other really good defensive players. So I think it's really just individual sides of the ball. So that leads me to say, what is the lion's ceiling? Do they have a defiant ceiling because they don't have those guys yet?

Or maybe those guys are on the roster, but they haven't ascended to that place. And I think that's fair to say because a lot of these high picks and a lot of these guys who should be the building blocks for them are in year one or year two or are coming off an injury like Jameson Williams was. So I think we need to see some real growth from some of those highly drafted pieces in order for them to get where they want to go using all of this as evidence. There's still untapped potential. And I mean, it just obviously it's a young team. But yeah, that's kind of how you have to look at it. It's like they're not all the way there yet, which I think is a good thing, but it still leaves question marks because you still have to answer. And that's the thing is once we have a question later that we'll talk about this, but when to get the playoff time and something that we've mentioned, yes, Amman-Ross, St. Brown is a great situation.

situational player on third down. He's against statistical darling and everything, but we haven't seen them go against a playoff defense where they're honed in on, oh, they're going to do this on third down. They're going to do this. And so that's where the stars really come into play is they take over games, even it doesn't matter what the scheme is. So that's what's fun about the lines is because there's still question marks. They're not a proven thing, but we do are optimistic about what they do have. Let's get to our first voicemail here. Hey, Robert and Nate. This is Richard from London. Robert, I know this is a city you're familiar with, having lived in Harrow, the London equivalent of Skokie, Illinois. Robert, congratulations on your wedding. Nate, congratulations for having the best Premier League crossover comps in all of NFL media.

My question is about Super Bowl windows. You had a good question about managing Super Bowl windows on a previous mailbag, but what I want to know is, who do you think of the teams for whom 2023 is the first year of their Super Bowl window, and those teams for whom 2023 is the last year of their window. Okay, thanks, guys. I like this question a lot because we talk about Super Bowl windows a lot, but we really think about it in these terms.

So who do you think is in the first year of their Super Bowl window this season? I guess the Jacks is one. First team I mentioned. First team on my west, yes. Going off our conversation from last week, I said, this is kind of a joking answer, but the Falcons, I guess,

in the first year of what, Maybe they're in their own head. The Lions, I suppose, are in their first year of going in. I think the last, the ones that are in the last part is more interesting of this. But first year, those were the three, two, I should say, the Lions and the Jags were the ones that really came to my mind right away. That would be my answer. First two I listed. The third one that I think you could make an argument that they're in the first year of the Super Bowl window.

This is my favorite one. Are the Jets in both the first and last year of their Super Bowl window? Yes. And that is an amazing answer. first and last. That is perfect. It's possible it's the last one because he may just retire. It is feasible that this is the first and last year of the Jet Super Bowl window as constructed this way.

Yes, that is hilarious. I had them for last as one of mine too. Actually, a lot of AFC East teams for last. But yeah, but no, Jets for first. That's a really fantastic one. I like that. I guess maybe Seahawks maybe, I guess in a weird way. Yeah.

They're going to, they're such a weird, because it's like they've Gino. So usually it's these youngest sending teams. They have the youngest sending quarterback. That's why I didn't put them in there. It's hard to say your Super Bowl window is opening with a 32 year old quarterback who's going to turn 33 during the season. So that's why it's putting in there. There's barely any resume under his belt, too.

It's like, yeah, there's such a weird team. It just didn't feel right to put them in there. So far for that reason. That's why they didn't. Okay. So outside of the Jets, who else did you put for last year of the Super Bowl window? I did Chargers of this iteration of their team. Yep.

Because I have the exact same thing. A lot of questions to answer. Yes, they're going to have Justin Herbert for a long time. They have a lot of questions to answer this year. This version of the Chargers, though. This is probably a Keenan Allen, Kalil Mack, even Joey Osa potentially being a cap casualty heading in the next year. We talked about it with the, are they trying to with the Super Bowl? This team is $60 million over the 2020 or 2024 cap right now.

So with this version of the Chargers, this is it. This is it. And then kind of that same thought of like this iteration of this team is the Bills. I kind of feel like this is this year kind of, it's closing of this kind of makeup of their team, this veteran defense that they've had reconfringing that. Jets was one. And then I had the Dolphins because they have to answer a quarterback question after this year with two and what they want to do with him.

So and that's why they've built this team this way is taking advantage to that contract, this awesome defense that they build and this exciting explosive offense. So that team, they just have questions to answer with the quarterback. situation after this year. So not saying it's completely closed or done after this year, but it's this iteration it might be I have some questions to answer. I had the dolphins as well. It's some urgency with the dolphins.

Increase urgency with the dolphins. Toronto Armstead is 33. Two costs $25 million next year. They've restructured a lot of these contracts. So they're over the cap by a lot next year. They have moves that they can make. They move on from Jerome Baker and Xavier Howard. There's ways to kind of get around it.

But I think that there's real urgency when you look at the ages. And then the price tags associated with some of their most important players. So though I had this very, very similar list. And the bills, you mentioned it in the, are they trying to win the Super Bowl show? This is an old team. They've got old guys. I mean, Michael Hyde is an important piece of what they're doing. You have Jordan Poirer is deep into his 30s now, Von Miller, obviously.

So this construction of what the bills are, I think is worth mentioning. And also, what's going to happen with digs? We've not talked about this. Dude. How worried are you about this? I'm not I'm like not too worried it's to me it seems a receiver being a receiver yeah a little bit that's my first answer and I think they snuffed it out fairly quick it was kind of like a self-inflicted error like you know as far as you know how to McDermen reacting

the way that he did it's comments and everything and so it's one of those where it's like it's one of a lot of teams are like ducks on a pond there's a lot of chaos going on behind the scenes that people smile about no everything's fine you know I think it might have been like a digs being digs kind of moment that maybe has just maybe they're they're under a lot of pressure in that building so i think i'm not too worried but it's just i'm not like excited to see that happen especially since i'm pretty optimistic about the bills this year i also think that the way that their offense was constructed over the last few years almost painted them into a corner with the expectations that stephan digs would have like they need to have more flexibility and be able

to do more stuff given the situation. And I think that their ability to run the ball and be a little more physical, that's important. But when you're throwing the ball 70% of the time, it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle with your very vocal number one receiver. It's the Kevin Garnett meme, it's just like, why the fuck would you show it to me if I can't have it for us to throw, for me to get 15 targets a game? So I think that's also part of the kind of the entanglements of the dynamic is that they played this very specific way over the last couple of years that kept him very, very happy.

and if they start to drift away from what that precursor or what that precedent looks like, what is going to happen. When every run play has a pass tag on it. I bet you the receivers are really happy about that. Oh, I don't have to block it. And I get to catch a ball half the time. It's so true. It's so true.

When they're taking those away a little bit, I'm sure he's going like, hey, what the hell? That's three targets you're taking away from each game. He's just getting flashbacks to them running the ball 35 times the game in Minnesota. That's his problem. His Minnesota stats are so funny. it's like he had like like 80 targets but it's like so efficient like it's so you can just see just bubbling like just just throw a ball more just throw a ball more especially to this guy and I bet you good

things will happen I mean I I said that when it happened I mean there was he was definitely like a milsap doctrine candidate when you look at what he was doing and I wrote it in the moment I still feel pretty good about that one and that I think this guy's like one of the best five receivers in the league and all he needs is more reps and just more run and we're going to see what he could do and that's exactly what happened what happened what one mean multiple fantasy championships because of the price I got before his first year of Buffalo. All right. Next question here from Cody Hang.

My question is about the Shannon-Hen-McVey offenses. I think most everyone agrees that their offenses raises the floor of an NFL quarterback, getting Jared Gough and Jimmy G to a Super Bowl, Baker's best season, or Stansky. But I don't think this part gets talked about enough. Does their offense also lower their ceiling? Is there something intrinsic about the offense, play calling, and the control they prefer to have calling plays that has led them to value guys like Cousins and Jimmy G. higher than most. Obviously, dudes like my homes would work anywhere, but is it just a coincidence

that some of the freakier NFL prospects, Alan Herbert, Trevor, Hertz, Lamar, have all gone to offenses that seem to give quarterbacks a chance to freelance and have more of a college football influence to them. Do you think this has played a role in them only being in one or two Super Bowls combined? We've touched on this, I think, a couple different times, but I do think it's a worthwhile question to kind of dig into a little bit. Yeah, and maybe put it in one place. Yes. Yeah. I think the number one, and this is historical and still holds up today is the

limitations of that offense is the straight dropback game is that's what they don't. They're not saying they don't spend time with it. They choose to spend more of their resources and time and energy, mental energy on other parts. Run game, play action game. They want to win first and second down. And then they're like, okay, well, and then third down is kind of like, okay, we're not, we're not going to be in a lot of third long. So we only need a couple of plays there.

And I think that's where the. ceiling limitations can come unless you have a Matt Ryan in 2016 or Stafford with the Rams. And that's where you true. I think like the 2016 Falcons is always going to be the best example. It's like I think that's what Shanahan wants to do. Like that's like if I had a guy that can actually drop back and do this shit, I would be doing this way more. And that's what we saw with the Rams with Stafford. It was also.

And Rogers. I mean, Rogers won two MvPs in this offense over the last couple years. Yes. But I think it's important to point out. I don't think it limits the ceiling. on what your quarterback can do because we've seen a lot of quarterbacks win MVP's in Super Bowls. I mean, three different guys we just mentioned over the last five, six, seven years do this. So I, but, you know, the quarterback already has to be a ready made product when he's dropped into the offense.

Think about the point in their careers when Matt Ryan, Aaron Rogers, and Matthew Stafford were introduced to this. They were already fully developed as dropback passers. They were already really good quarterbacks. I don't know if it limits the ceiling on a quarterback. I do think there's a chance that limit the development of a quarterback. Because you're putting him in such a rigid box, and he's not asked to do much before the snap. He's not asked to change plays. So I think that there are certain aspects to getting better as a quarterback and getting a better feel for the game that that guy is not asked to have in this offense.

So if you're a young quarterback, I do think that it can stifle you a little bit. But if you're already fully baked as a veteran quarterback, that's when the ceiling is kind of unlimited. That's what we've seen. That's a great point because and the joke or the kind of phrase I use with some of these quarterbacks that get in offenses like this is training wheels. It's point shoot. Point shoot. But if you're always using training wheels, you can't get used to riding a bike with two wheels. You know, you're always going to always going to have that little governor to help you out.

Like, you know, a little something to a little help you out. So that's a fantastic point. And like that, that's the thing. There's those limitations of that, the asks of that, like you say, point shoot. There's so much where, I mean, just watch Jimmy G. the last few years. It's like he drops back. He looks exactly where Kyle probably told him the whole freaking week. You're going to go, hey, on this third and four, look at the freaking, look at Iyuk. He's going to be right there. Just throw it. Just throw it blind. And he does throw it blind sometimes.

So, but it's like that they keep it so streamlined, relatively streamlined, that dropback stuff. And that's where good quarterbacks have the most influence is that straight dropback stuff. But they never work at it. So it's hard to develop it. So it's all kind of like a all tied in together. The other thing, too, with this offense and mentioned this before, this is an old stigma. I don't think it holds up any as much as it nowadays, because most positions have gotten sleeker and faster is usually they had undersized offense alignment. Yeah. And that also tied into why they couldn't do the straight drop back stuff because their guards would

just get pushed back into the quarterback. So that's an old kind of stigma. I don't think that holds up as much today. I think they found better workarounds. That point about protections is a fantastic one, though. They don't, I've had this frustration about their offenses sometimes where they, set it and forget it with the center. And I'm like, adjust. No, adjust. And I'm going to talk about this of a different question too, but that's a great point to bring up that they take that away from

most quarterbacks where they don't let them have influence on protection or anything. But then you look at some of the vets that get dropped in like a Matt Ryan. Also, they're like, they're letting him change the protection. So they will adapt, but generally no. And that that leaves some maybe mental limitations down the road. Yeah, I find it fascinating. The guys that we've seen really take the ceiling off of it, have been guys in their 30s that have been the league for a decade. So I think that that's really instructive. Next one here, Francis Lally, says in the recent mailbags, you two have gone into extensive detail about the Shanahan wide zone system.

What other systems are popular across the league that aren't the wide zone scheme? Who runs them and why are they successful? I figured I'd let you take a rip at this one. Yeah, it's hard for me to put a name on some of these guys or what they do. I always call it traditional NFL scheme. I know Shanahan is a traditional NFL scheme of the wide zone stuff, but it's, for me, it's the Kellynmore and Sean Payton is. what I think of. And even Ben Johnson, those three are really what I think of the wide variety in the

run game that is a lot of at you runs. Duo is what I always bring up, but they'll change up their runs every week. Not that Shanahan hasn't, but like, you know, he does more gap stuff and more polers and all that. But I would say that kind of traditional run based run game, which is duo, power, pinpole. Those guys kind of have a lot of like that traditional run game. A greatest hits passing game. And again, this is really hard for me to explain without like showing you all the clips. There's, it's a, it's a copycat league. And they run the copycat plays. They are running the sales of the world, the choice routes of the world, the ones that everybody else runs.

But then they're going to run four verts. You know, that's a play that these guys will run, which is four verticals. Everybody run down the field and having a run back, run a win route. You won't see a lot of Shanahan guys do those types of plays. The straight drop back, the five and seven step drop back. That's a straight dropback and we're reading out the play, full field read. The Shanahan ones in the past game is a little different. Shane Steichen, he runs a Norv Turner offense with college influence in it.

And that's a different variety too. And again, a lot of, I would say the biggest difference is the run game is a little more varied and what they will run each week. But also the passing game is more down the field. I would say that is the biggest difference where the passing game is more traditional turn your back to the defense, hang in the pocket. It's not the bootleg breaking out of the pocket. It's down the field, overs and posts, as opposed to maybe tricky kind of bootleg stuff that maybe the Shanahan guys alike. So kind of a long-winded answer to say these kind of more traditional baseball is like Kelmore, Sean Payton. So Kellynne Moore is with the Chargers now.

Sean Payton is with the Broncos. Ben Johnson. That comes from like that's a West Coast DNA. It's a way. Yeah. Yes. And there's this. That's why I struggle because Sean Payton is traditionally a West Coast guy.

But if you look at his stuff, it's like, that's North Turner stuff. Yeah. And it's more vertical and aggressive than a lot of the West Coast stuff can be. It's West Coast with Air Correale. Like Correel. Like it's that hodgepodge mix because that's what even what my dad was, which Kellyn Moore is a descendant of my dad's offense through Scott Linnehan, which is kind of fun.

That's why I enjoy talking about it because I'm like, oh, I recognize that play. Oh, I recognize that check. It's kind of fun. But that is a, my dad was a Joe Gibbs, Dennis Green. So you have some West Coast, some Joe Gibbs, and then some Eric Correale stuff. So it's kind of a whole hodgepodge. That's when I say traditional NFL office. offense. And the other one, sorry, long when they answer ever again. Andy Reid, Doug Peterson are kind

traditional West Coast guys. But they've added layers to their playbook and the RPO game and other things. But those are the tradition. If you want to see a traditional West Coast guy, those two are the ones that are most like that these days. And then there's teams that a little bit more spread out RPO heavy now. Like if you look at what the bills were over the last couple of years, you know, before they kind of made those little tweaks that they had, you know, Arians ran his version of that like very vertical down, downfield passing game. Oh, I wanted to answer about that. so bad, but he's not in the league anymore. I mean, he's not really in the league anymore. And the bucks aren't really running that anymore because the bucks now have, we'll see what they

run with Dave Connellis, who came from Seattle. He was there for a very long time. But I think even the Shanahan stuff, like his dad is came from the Niners, like true blue West Coast stuff. And they just kind of stamped the wide zone blocking scheme onto it. So a lot of the DNA is similar. It's just, it's run through different verbiage and different ideas. That's it like that. Verbiage is the big difference. That's really when people talk about these offenses, I would say verbiage and maybe the cadence and everything, the kills and alerts and checks, that's where the differences come. A lot of these plays, everybody runs. And that's why, again, I use that term traditional NFL offense.

And really, it's come from two spots, you know, the West Coast offense and the old Chargers offenses there, Cori-El stuff. So it's like basically those are the two trees. And horse racing, it's like every thoroughbred comes from three horses way back, these Arabic. Arabian horses from back of the day. It's like that's kind of how NFL offenses are. It's come from like these two offenses and everything is merged into this one kind of thing with certain influences on everything. By the way, very interesting. I read an article this week on The Athletic and I think it was Bruce Feldman.

And he was talking about how this Michigan quarterback transferred to Oklahoma State and how Oklahoma State, because everybody in the Big 12 is so spread defense heavy because they've had all these Texas influence offenses spread, they're now going back to like eye formation and underst. center. It's like time is a flat circle, baby. It's like, let's get back to bully ball. And I just love that. It's like, as things changed, more things changed, the more they stay the same. And I just really like that. It's kind of interesting to see that in the college game right now. And the last one I'd mention, and because again, just a slight tweaks, like the Patriots have always run the Earhart Perkins offense with their verbiage. So I think if you left McDaniels and the Patriots into that, they call things a little bit differently. It's a slightly different in terms like the amount of read routes that they have and, you know, little tiny details about them. So I was

the last one I don't think we mentioned at all. Their formation stuff is so weird. Like that one, that one breaks my brain because I've never been in it. Like I've been West Coast. I've been a few different ones. And that one is the one I'm always like, that's because it's like numbering system. Like that one, that one's always a little, little, they're their own thing. They truly are their own thing. This one, I think you can answer very quickly. Philip Edward says, when a coordinator calls a play, for example, shout across corner blitz, does it get logged by the franchise? And does the opposition call get logged or does it all stay in the play caller's head? How do team's do this. Oh, it gets locked. This is my, this is my job. That's why I figured I'd let you take this one.

Yeah. Yeah, so during the game, there will be a coach, usually quality control coach or an assistant quarterback coach of some sort or maybe does assistant offensive line coach as well. This is offense, defense as their versions as well. And they chart each play. So the offense coordinator gives the play call to either the quarterback or the person that gives it to the quarterback. And then they're literally with a pen and a clipboard right down what the play was. Okay, it's second and eight. Um, you. Um, you. You know, it's in the second quarter. You write down, you have your little chart. And then after the series, generally, this is where the surface tablet comes in to effect where you see, okay, they're in an overfront. They're running cover four. You put it in your terms, whatever your offense describes the defense in certain ways. So anyone's listening to me on the show. I've used phrases of how I look at things, like when we have Deonté on and he'll talk about certain coverage, cover seven or something of that sort.

I'll be like, in my brain, I go, okay, that's cover six. You know, like I translate it into my offensive brain, which is good in some ways and bad in some ways. But anyone that listens to this show, I've maybe done to you a disservice in some ways. But yeah, you write down front coverages. And then after that, you input it into the video software system. So Xos or DV Sport and you type it all in, literally what you wrote down, what the defense was doing. So then when you watch that game or you do self-scouting, then you can look at, oh, wow, we ran sail 12 times this season. And we were successful on eight of them.

Wow. Every time we ran out of 11 personnel, we sucked. So you can do like a lot of self-scouting because you put in the personnel. You put in the formation. You put the formation family in. What defensive coverages did we face? So that's, yeah. So long story short is yes, it gets charted.

Yes, it gets inputted into software and to Excel sheets and all that after the game. But during the game, it's literally a clipboard and a pen and one person, one coach writing it down. Then afterwards, also during the game that helps too, it's like the offense coordinator might be like, Hey, where they run those last like two third downs? And you're like, okay. Okay. Oh, they were covered two in both times. Okay, okay.

Next time we can change what we're going to do on third long. But that's where it comes into effect. If you rewatch a game with like an NFL coach and you're just watching individual plays, the name of the play is at the top of the play. Like when you're watching it on tape. And that's, that is the end result of the process that you're talking about. Yes. Yeah, that's always the funny part. And then the best is when you don't know what the defensive coverage is.

I should say the best. It's actually the worst thing that happens when you have the opponent scout. And then you just see on. the on the on the, the, the, what you're talking about on the screen. You just see like a question mark. You know, you just see like cover like two man question mark like, like, you know, or like, or if a botch play happens like where the play call and someone lined up wrong. It's like, do I put that in that they ran it right or do I mark that this play was wrong in some way? You know, like everybody has their own system. So always seeing the question mark up there

always cracks me up because I know exactly what happened for the quality control coach. All right. Next one here. Yonis Hewst says, how do we as a football watching public who grew up on traditional passers divorce ourselves from ingrained preconceptions against building an offense around a running quarterback. Are our preconceptions about what an ideal offense should look like warranted? Or is it mostly just aesthetic preference that leaves us with skepticism towards untraditional quarterbacks? I see it similar to the pushback to jump shot oriented NBA stars around 2015.

Same argument structure steep in tradition for why that archetype shouldn't win and the same undervaluing of the inverted gravity that pull up three-point shooters had, which is the NBA equivalent of how teams have to load the box against good Russian quarterbacks. There's a lot of other stuff in there. He talks about there's evidence about the ceiling of an offense built around Russian quarterbacks is just as high as that of traditional passer. Examples of the high ceiling being Lamar's 2019 season, Hertz is 2022, while quarterbacks like Kylo, Lamar, Cam, early Josh Allen, have shown us just how much

a Russian quarterback can raise the floor of an offense deficient of talent. So do we overrate the traditional kind of aesthetic of what a drop-back passer gives you? Have we been too slow to adopt, to adopt, identify, embrace what a Russian quarterback can do, even if it looks and feels a little bit different than what we're used to? I don't think so because I think we know that's a prerequisite now that you kind of have to create and you have to because I think things are just so fast and defenses are so good. So either the play is bad or someone's covered or QB read something wrong, you have to have that eject button that when things go skew, you have to be able to do that. I think I think there is like some that we always have that prototype quarterback in our head to me like when I picture like the old 80s and 90s like prototype quarterback. I'm not saying this was good, but I'm just saying what I picture.

It's Drew Bledsoe, the 6-5 big statuesque, you know, big strong arm quarterback. That's what you picture. But I also think that when it comes down to it, I talk about creation. I talk about, you know, the old aesthetic and everything is when it comes down to it, you have to be able to drop back and throw the ball. And when things get tough, you're going to have to throw the ball. So that's why these good ones now, they can do both. And that's what's so amazing about some of these top tier guys. So I think when it comes down to it, you have to drop back and you have to be efficient

and explosive dropping back because it's going to come down to it at some point in a big game during the season. All of these examples that he used about the ceiling of these offenses, look at the passing efficiency numbers associated with these offenses. In 2019, the Ravens were by far the most efficient passing offense. in the league. Insanely. And it wasn't just play action merchants. Lamar finished number one in the league at EPA per dropback on non-play action

throws in 2019. Like, by a lot. Okay? Look at some of these other examples. J.1 Hertz last season was eighth in EPA per dropback on the year. In 2015 Panthers was the one where I was like, huh, I remember that they were the number one rushing team in the league by a mile. And Cam was a huge part of that.

That was the one example where before looking at the numbers was like maybe they're an average passing team and the Russian. really elevated thing. What were they actually now? Ninth in EPA per dropback that season. So you have to be able to throw the ball. And Cam, that season, I was looking at it because I was wondering, the true media play action numbers don't go back that far. But PFF has yards per attempt on non-play action throws. He was sixth in yards per attempt on non-play action throws that season when he won the MVP.

You have to be able to do it. And so, Janice's question was, I think, in part motivated. He talked about this a little earlier in his question by being a bear's fan. and Justin Fields. Justin Fields last season finished 24th in EPA per dropback, including scrambles, okay, out of like 42 quarterbacks. If you take out the scrambles, he was like 38th out of 42. He was worse than Zach Wilson.

It's one of the worst quarterbacks in the league. You still need to get to a modicum of passing efficiency success to be a really good NFL offense, even if the rushing is part of it. And I will fully admit this, you can kind of create some of that passing efficiency through scheme and maybe lean less on a quarterback's pure, dropback ability by changing how the dials look, but eventually you need to be able to throw the ball to win. And I think that the Eagles last year are probably the best example of this, right? Where like it's tuned a certain way, but you still have to be able to get there. And then

even think about the Super Bowl, Jalen Hurts made some big boy fucking throws in that game. Like eventually you have to get to that place, even if maybe the traditionalists among us don't appreciate what the running does for you quite as much. Right. The, when it comes down to it, defenses are going to go, they're going to take away your easy buttons. That's what they're to do. And usually easy buttons are play action,

RPO's, making you scramble a lot, but they're going to make you drop back and throw the ball. At some, that's what it's, Super Bowl is a great example. Big moments,

that's what good defense coordinators are going to do. So always, it might only have to be 30% of your game, but it's never going to be zero percent. Like it has to be a part of your game. And I love your Justin Fields example. example because that's even like kind of like was studying some of the end game or end season games of his.

And that's the thing is he has to become efficient. You can be explosive. But if defenses go, okay, we'll take away those deep balls. All right. Can you methodically go down the field and complete six of eight balls for five to 10 yard gains over and over and over again? It might not matter in week seven. But if the, the bears want Justin Fields to be what they think they want them to be and what I think he can be, he has to do it. You just can't take it away completely.

You have to be able to do it. And Hertz was, that's why I had question marks about Hertz. That Bucks playoff game in the 2021 season. That is the perfect example. Your legs can only go so far. You have to be able to hang in the pocket and throw. And guess what? He answered it the whole next season.

So that's where those question marks happened because it's going to come up at some point at a big moment if you want to be the guy or that type of quarterback. Next question, a very simple one, but a very effective one. Alex Huang says, if you could drop Patrick Mahomes on every single team, which team is the worst that he could still lead to the Super Bowl? I looked at the Super Bowl odds. That's exactly the page I have opened right now. This is hard.

I had the Saints at 30 to 1, but it was like that was one. A curious one in my brain would be, well, I mean, hell, me and the Falcons at 80 to 1 would be. I absolutely think the Falcons could be in that conversation. The answer actually. With the weapons that they have. That was not my original answer. The Packers was my original answer at 66 to 1 with all the young passengers. Just because the offensive line I think is so great.

And the defense is interesting at least. Well, the Bucks are, plus they're 125 to 1 right now. So I guess the Bucks is a great answer too. But Falcons is a good one to me. I think that might be the worst kind of overall team. I don't think they're that bad that you drop Patrick Mahomes on. He could take them to the Super Bowl. I think the Bucks is the best answer.

Because the Bucks still have enough underlying talent on both sides of the ball, where I think that he's, could take you there. Yeah, but I think that's the best answer. That's the answer. If you're looking at Super Bowl odds, that's the best answer, 125 to 1. I think the bucks are the team of the lowest Super Bowl odds that you could get there. The Falcons are a very good answer. I think the Patriots could, he could absolutely take this Patriots team to the Super Bowl. You know, they don't, there's no Patrick, or there's no Travis Kelsey on that team, but with how good the Patriots defense has a chance to be, I think it's probably in that

conversation. The Packers is another good one. I think the Steelers probably clear that bar. I think the Steelers are pretty good. Have enough talent. sides of the ball. So you can get pretty far down the list. I think it's probably easiest to say what teams wouldn't be able to take to the Super Bowl. Yeah. Like Titans.

Titans, Texans Cardinals. Probably Colts. I think the Colts still are young enough and maybe don't have enough, quite enough talent on defense to get there. Maybe not because of the defense. Raiders. Rators is a good one. Imagine him with those past catchers.

Him and Devante Adams would make sweet music together. Raiders, Rams. And I probably say the Bears still because of the state of the Bears defense at some certain positions. Step away. Yeah. That's really about it, though. Half dozen at the most. Yeah.

And obviously you got to get 100 breaks, but I still think that if you dropped him in there, that's the amount of teams that could be in the conversation. He's good. He's really good at this game. Pretty good. All right. Next one here. Hunter Lillenquist says, I saw that the other day that got me thinking about the running back position. It was from Scott Barrett and said that 129 times has a player averaged 5.0

more yards per carry on 190 or more carries. Four players have done it five times. Jim Brown, Barry Sanders, Jamal Charles, and Nick Chubb. Nick Chub has only played five seasons. The other players played 9, 10, and 11 seasons respectively. This paired with Chub making every rushing yards over-expected graph look like Patrick Mahomes on an EPA graph, led me to wonder if Nick Chub will go down as an all-time great. I've heard both of you rave about how funny is to watch her on the ball, but I've never heard anybody talk about him in a historical sense of the position. Your arcs per carry has not changed much over time, so it seems to be a fairly translatable stat across eras. And I would

love to know your thoughts on the matter. I mean, when you really look at it, it's like, yeah. Okay. I mean, he's... We've talked about this. We, yeah. I think it was two years ago. Might have been the first year we did the show because I think it was 20-20. I remember where I was sitting when we had this conversation. We were talking about Derek Henry or Nick Chubb. who would we rather have? And I said, Nick Chubb. I steadfast in my belief that Nick Chubb is the best pure runner in the NFL. And I think he has been that for several years.

Okay, you look at the numbers. Yards after contact per attempt, his five seasons in the league. 2018 is a rookie first. 2019, fourth. 2020, first. 2021, second. This year he was eighth, but he was second in the league and mistackles forced. Again, if you look at rushing yards over expected per attempt,

top five every single year that he has been in the NFL. So hard to do. He's awesome. And he is, his situation is very good. He's got Bill Cowan. He's got a very good offensive line. But these are stats that try to separate the running back's performance from what the situation does.

This is after contact. This is how many mistackles are you forcing? If Nick Chubb was drafted in 1995, he'd be going to the Hall of Fame. Easily. No question. He'd be going to the Hall of Fame. But the way that he's used and the way the modern game is constructed, he's just a little bit further down the list when you look at some of these other running

backs that add a ton of value in the passing game. Think about where Nick Chubb goes in fantasy drafts. I know that's a simplistic way to look at it, but I do think that it illustrates a point about where it's the position is. That actually translates to the fantasy. I mean, I think that as a runner, I think that he's the best runner of his era. I think that it's pretty clear. I mean, Derek Henry's right there, but I still think Nick Chubb, if I've said it before,

I'd rather have Nick Chub as a runner. And that's the thing is Derek Henry is just a force of nature. Like, Chubb actually has skill and technique. And not taken away from Derek Henry because he's fantastic player. But Chubb, it's, he's the epitome of a running back. Like, if you're studying film, it's like, if I was teaching a guy how to tempo his runs and playing his foot, of course he has rare athletic gifts and size and all that. believably rare.

Yes. But he has great technique with that rare athletic ability in size. I just watched a couple of games from late in the season. And he's, it's not only, yes, he has a great situation with Callahan, an offensive line. They have a great run game. They do some cool things. But even ones that aren't blocked well, he's still creating a five-yard gain when it's blocked for negative two. You know, he makes a guy miss.

His vision is outstanding. Like he knows how to, he can get small in the hole, which is something I think is understayed in a weird way, like how he can slither through holes despite being such a bulky build at 2.30. To me, as an all-time great, he's one of the best running backs of the past decade easily. So I automatically consider him that a week, that's elite company. Yes, the errors are changing and the stats are going to change on it, but he's going to have a claim to be the best from this time period, which automatically, I think, makes you up there with that conversation. Like, we're talking about how he's going to hold up over time. Hopefully he gets a couple more all

pros because I think that'll help out his case. That's part of the problem is that hasn't happened. So you look at some of his best seasons. In 2019, that's when he had 298 carries rush for about 1,500 yards on 5 yards a carry. Derek Henry that year had 1,500 yards and 16 touchdowns. So he was second team all pro. And 2019 was a season where Christian McCaffrey rushed for about 1,400 yards, scored

15 touchdowns and also had 116 catches for 1,000 yards. So he's just got unlucky. some of these huge seasons that he's had where two guys have had better counting stats than him. And because they play the position a little bit differently, or in Henry's case, they just have gotten more work. So I think him not getting the goal wine work as often because Kareem Hunt's gotten a lot of those touches, him splitting time with Kareem Hunt for a good chunk of his career and not getting the huge workload.

And then over the last couple seasons, those two factors compounded by the fact that he's missed about four games a year. So he's just never had that perfect storm of factors that's lined up. to him being a first or second team L pro for all of those different reasons. But as a pure runner, I think he would probably be on that Hall of Fame sort of track in a different era. Didn't we get asked one time? Yeah, we did. At a dinner, you and I were at.

And someone asked us a question. And he was like, he goes, who is like the running back right now? Like, when we talked about like, who are the best like true, true running backs and me and you would show up. And they were trying to think who the like the descendant of that. And it was Adrian Peterson. Yeah. And they were just saying like those, those types of backs that aren't contributing in the in the passing game as much as a lot of the other, but 95% of running backs are nowadays.

And I think that also just speaks that he can still be a such a dynamic player at the spot while also having some limitations. You know what I mean? Like, you have to be really freaking good at what you do. If teams are willing to play you and you aren't going to be a contributor in the past game, you can't really run routes that well and your hands are just okay. So that's like, I'm just saying that's a feather in his cap. A detriment to his game is still a feathering his cap of how good he is on the

around. This year was probably his worst season efficiency-wise. I mean, he was still average five yards of carry, but he had 50. That sense right there is hilarious. Still average five yards of carry, but he got 300 carries and this is his biggest workload he's ever gotten. And he scored 12 touchdowns. So he was second team all pro. So it's almost just things completely out of his control, who his peers are, things like that. But listen, you don't have to tell me about Nick Chub. Also, somebody else mentioned on this list that I think we'll come up in either the Canton Court or Hall of very good episodes very soon when he is eligible.

Jamal Charles is one of everyone that keeps asking about when we're going to talk about Jamal Charles on these shows soon. He is truly one of my favorite NFL players of all time. He's incredible. Have I told you my chief story when I interviewed with him? I was in a young buck had no idea what I was doing. They offered me or interviewed me for a national scouting spot. But what they did was you had to watch six of their players, I believe it was.

and then write a report or just like a one page. That's a good test. Yeah, I liked it. You know, one was John Baldwin. I crushed him. But one was Jamal Charles. And he was probably like the third guy I watched. I was like one of each position.

They had a tackle. We watch all this. What year was this? So this would have been 2000, summer of 2013. And dude, I remember. Because I'll say I knew the NFL, but I didn't know like every team. Not to the depth I know now. Obviously, working in the league will do that to you.

But I knew Jamal Charles. I knew he was good. But I had just spent time in college. I was at Pitt at the time. I was just at Wisconsin. So I had more of a college brain at that point in time. And I watched him. I was like,

their grain scale is one to five on everything, five being the best. And I was like, he's like a five at everything. I was like, he's a little small. I think that was the one thing I knocked, but I was like,

you can legit run every type of run concept. And he's incredible. His balance was like, like, like that's, it's so great when you see the rares of the world. He was rare with that balance and the cut. and the cut ability and his hands were so good.

He's fast. He was really fast too. When you had the explosiveness with like how smooth he was, it was insane. His bouncing speed, man. And he had great vision and just knew when I hit the turbo button to burst through the hole. It was like, oh, he's, well, I'm, yeah, honestly, if you haven't watched a Jamal Charles highlights, but he's one of those guys that on TV copies, he's great, but watching him on film from the coach's copy, the All-22, the end zone view.

It's like, you get even more of appreciation for the things. that he was doing. I love Jamal Charles. I'm sure we will get to Jamal Charles on one of those shows at some point. All right. Matthew Vaughn says, I'm trying to understand

just how important a backup quarterback is. For instance, is it a coincidence that Tyra Taylor goes somewhere in the young quarterback improves? If you're a team like the Bears or Atlanta, how important is it to get a good backup to work with your young quarterback?

If you're a team like Cleveland or Denver, what kind of backup do you need? And then if you're Cincinnati, Buffalo, or Kansas City, what kind of backup do you need? I have long said that I think that your backup quarterback for a young quarterback is extremely important, right?

So perfect example to me. The Texans draft a quarterback with the second overall pick this year. They immediately signed Case Keenham to be their backup quarterback. Perfect. Panthers pick Bryce Young with a number one overall pick. They go out and get Andy Dalton to be their backup quarterback. Chase Daniel came in to be the backup quarterback for the Chargers when Justin Herbert was there. Now that Justin Herbert, so then eventually when these guys get enough confidence, enough knowledge,

enough, they're comfortable enough within the offense, who they are. They've developed as players. They've been taught how to be pros. That influence may become a little less important. Chase Daniel is no longer in Los Angeles. The bills have changed the way that they've done their backup quarterback room over the last couple of years. So I think that having it for that guy to understand how the league works, understand how

meetings work, how dialogue with coaches should work, being a Rosetta Stone for the scheme, all of these different things. I think that is extremely important. And I think that we have seen teams around the league. identify a similar mindset and a similar approach for quarterbacks that are in early stages of their development. That's why I'd always, if I had a young quarterback, I'd be like, someone called Jacoby Percette and see how he's doing. I want a guy, Chase Dan was the perfect one because he bounced around with so many influential play callers and learned. These guys are player coaches. That's how you have to look at them. And I think that's important, though, because I remember me and Barnwell had a really big argument about this once, probably a decade ago.

and he was like, I can't remember who it was. They might have been Josh McCown. Signed with the Jets and they're giving him a salary. And it's like, was that what coaches are for? It's so different when you're on the team. When you're in the locker room and you're in meetings together, the way that you can talk to each other. Like, that matters.

Even if they are coaches that are dressed up on game day, I still think the difference in how that relationship exists is important to acknowledge. They're a translator at times. They go, hey, I've been that backup quarterback for Russ. This was college. But I had to translate stuff from our office. offense to his West Coast brain at the time and go like, hey, this is what, you know, Coach Chris says to read it like this, but really honestly, you could just read it like this.

Like that, that's a real thing. And it's understated. It's not always exactly how the coach installs it and everything. It's kind of you translate to your own brain. And that's where the quarterback comes, the backup quarterback comes in. They just had perspective. And they can come up with ideas during the week like, hey, you know, when I was in Dallas, we used to, we used to run that at 16.

You want to try that. And that's great. It's just ideas. You need those ideas. And it's not. I'll make fun of myself. It's not some quality control coach coming up with the idea. It's some dude that started games or has been in the league for 10 years or eight years.

And they can help filter things out. This season never, the example I've had, like personally, it was with Dante Cole Pepper. And he, we brought in, we, my dad and the team brought in Gus Farah. And that was a perfect one for Dante because he bounced ideas off of him. And Gus has done some things with coaching as well after his career. So it made sense. And then even in 2005, which the year didn't really go that well. Obviously, the dad got fired.

But they brought him Brad Johnson, brought him back in. Same exact line of thinking. Those guys that have experienced, they go when I was starting this worked. Oh, you're better than me, though. Like, ha, ha, ha, you can do this. It matters so much, especially on game day too. When bullets are flying and stuff's happening. It's like, hey, on third down, they're really doing this.

Hey, hey, like, look at the dig on that. Like next time. You know, maybe the quarterback coach doesn't see that or the offensive coordinator. They go to the offense corner. I've seen Chase Daniel do this. He goes and he's like, hey, look at this, this and this. That's where those guys have so much weight and so much influence. And it matters.

If you get the right one, they're worth their weight. They're worth their salary like tenfold if you get the right one. I think as you get a little bit deeper talking about, again, different types of teams in their backup quarterbacks, having a guy that can win you a game in the right situation when you have a guy who's more fully developed, I think that becomes more important. I also think it's interesting in the stylistic similarities. That's another. Like the Bears brought in PJ Walker this year to be their back.

up after they changed the type of offense that they were running, which like, okay, that makes sense. Look at the backup quarterbacks the Ravens have. And what they can do. Hotly and sorely. RG3 before that. So I think that there is something to that. Oh, absolutely.

That's kind of the two lines of thinking. You either want the run around type guy or you want the three, I guess. You want the guy that matches your quarterback's play style. You want a guy that maybe could just run around and win you a game. You know, if they have to, that's a real thing. Taylor Hyachee is the backup quarterback in Atlanta right now. Hey, get in there, buddy. Johnny Knoxville, man.

Go win us a game, buddy. But seriously, you need that. Enough to get you by mentally. He can make some checks and kills and just go run around, make some plays. It doesn't always have to be on script. Or get the old vet if you have a younger quarterback to help you out. And think about, I mean, the guys that got drafted this year, Ryan Tanna Hill is in Tennessee.

I mean, even if they're not buddy, buddy, you know, because I think Ryan Tano probably isn't throat that somebody's coming in and take his job. Even seeing how a guy is going to draft for the guy. Even having a guy where you can see like, all right, this is how you're supposed to go about it. This is how you're supposed to do this. I do think that there's a lot of value in that. All right. Terry Woodman says, hey, Robert Nate, people often use the phrase playoff football.

What does that mean? Is there actually a difference between postseason and regular season other than the teams being better? Teams make changes to schemes during the playoffs. Are coaches game plans specifically more complex? Are they running things that they set up during the regular season? What do you think about this? I love this because this is why I like I love sports. Spags, Steve Spagnola.

It's just, they coaches get, it's not that it's more complex, I would say, but specific, I think it might be the word for it. Extreme, extreme is the word that I was. Taylor made. Yes. Yes. Very, it gets more and more tailor made as the season goes along. And coaches just have more data to go through for situations.

NFL is just such a situational game. Third down, a red zone, a short yardage and backed up and four minute, two minute, and second downs and second alongs and all that. So when you're playing a team maybe week six, and you got a new defensive coordinator, you're playing against it first year, a defense coordinator. Again,

I'm always from the offense perspective. So sorry, any defensive people listening to this. But it's, hey, okay, all right, I got break down all their red zone plays this year. Wow,

we only have 12 to go through, you know, because that's all they played against this year. All right, now we play that team in the playoffs. We have an entire season of plays to go through for that situation. Or you play a team like in your division,

you play them into playoffs. So this is your third game going against that team. So now you get into the, I know what you know, what I know what you know situations. And that's what it is. It's the play is off the play. It's now every, okay, every time we were against this team on third and long, they ran cover two. Okay, so on our first third and long, seven plus, okay, we're going to do a cover two beater. Let's hit that post.

Let's beat them over the top because they're not getting enough depth on it. That's really what it is. Taylor made, I think is my best way I could put it. We put a double move in or a shot play in because they do this in short yardation. Now we know that because we watched them do it 15 times. This is an NFL, but this is my best example of it because it kind of carries over. But my senior at Wisconsin, again, we played Michigan State in the Big Ten championship game. Kirk Cousins was Michigan State quarterback.

Russ was our quarterback at Wisconsin. Fantastic game. If no one's ever seen it, it's probably one of my favorite games I was ever part of because we won. And we, the defense coordinator for Michigan State was Pat Narduzzi, who's now the head coach at Pitt. And he was one of the top defense coordinator's defense of minds at the the time still kind of is and Paul Chris at the time was one of the top offensive lines in college. We looked every third down inside the five yard line in the red zone. He would bring a cross dog blitz every single. Coach Chris went through every single one in the season and he did

a cut up and there was like six of them on the season. It was like every time, every third goal from five yard in cross dog blitz, cross dog blitz. So there it was. It was like third and four from the four. Also we ran this like high low play. The Jeff Duckworth got his first career touchdown because they brought the cross dog blitz, rust through hot, touchdown, boom. And I remember Coach Chris going, you predictable motherfucker. And it was like, but it was on the headset. It was just one of those things. But that's what end season stuff does is because now you have so much more film to look

at from that year. But that was just my kind of my example kind of matters because it was a Big Ten championship game. We had 12 games to look at. But that's what playoff football is like. And every, all the good staffs do that anyways. I think extreme tailor made, however you want to phrase it, a couple of examples, right? Think about the Bengals drop eight example against the chiefs a couple of

years ago in the playoffs. That's just not going to happen for the most part in a regular season game where they're doing it all all the time throughout that half. Because you figure out this is the one thing. We got a shot. If we lean on this, we can win this game. Think about the Super Bowl. The Chiefs were one of the most past heavy teams in the NFL last season. They threw the ball on about 62% of their snaps.

It was 50-50 during the Super Bowl because this is how we can win this game. And then the other really stark examples that I think about are some of the Patriots teams. Remember those Patriots playoff games where, They ran the ball like 55 times and never threw it. Or there's a game against the Broncos where they ran the ball like twice, where they threw the ball like 65 times because they're like, we can't do this. And there are a lot of other examples where I think the bills against the chiefs in the playoffs

a couple of years ago, they didn't blitz once. You know, they ran this very specific thing. So I think that's what you see is that because teams understand this is our one chance. Like this is leave it all out there. We can live in the margins schematically and just try to hammer one thing over and over and over and over again. And I think that is why the ability to pivot and flexibility matters so much in the playoffs. So where I think if you look at the teams that make the playoffs and the teams that go to the final four, it's going to be the same sort of stuff

that typically drives regular season success. The teams that throw the ball the best are going to be the teams that make it that far in the playoffs. But when you get to those moments, your weaknesses become more pronounced. So if you have one, little ways that you can take advantage of another teams like the Chiefs did this year, this version of the Chiefs that won the Super Bowl is two years in the making, them being able to play that way. And I think being able to kind of shift between those things because the specificity that comes with other teams game plans becomes really, really important when you get that deep.

Patrick Mahomes is still the most important player, but the Chiefs needed to run the ball that way to win the Super Bowl. They got to three tight ends and they knew the Eagles matched with five DBS and they're like, okay, that's the advantage that they picked. that. And another thing, this is the human element as well. I mean, all this is the human element, but, you know, regular season stats is, uh, so there might be an offense coordinator that wants a, you know, trying to get that head coach a job. So maybe they game up and start throw the ball a little bit in week 17, week 18, 16. You know, let's make sure we're second in the,

passing yardage, you know, so we can get that, that interview with the next team is going to go a little bit better. But once the playoffs matter, the only stat that matters is the final score. It's like, that's, I mean, obviously that is the regular season, but truly I think that's where now people are willing to just throw everything out the window. Another good one is the Titans, I mentioned this game, the 2019 Titans being the Ravens and the Lamar's year in the playoffs. Dean Peace ran a defense that he's never run before. He's backing these linebackers off like eight yards and not blitzing.

And I mean, he blitz a little bit like way less. And that's kind of thing. You just change up. It's a great way to build off tendencies and build off Tennessee breakers. And that's what the playoffs do is it's a bunch of tendency breakers. So if you can't pit it from that because another team reacted in a specific way, you can get caught flat-footed and loose. And I think that that's the type of thing that we've seen.

And that's why I think you and I both talked about a lot over the last couple of years, just about can you be something different? Can you be something different week-to-week, a moment-to-moment? I think the playoffs is where you really get a sense of that. You don't have to be the best at the certain thing. You just have to be able to do it efficient well enough to win if you need to do it. So what you're saying is I completely, I mean, absolutely agree with. And that's why it doesn't have to be that, you don't have to be that,

you don't have to be the top three run team, but you always have to hit that 40% efficiency mark and be able to pivot to that when you have to. Or vice versa, if you're a run team and have to be able to throw the ball and drop back or your defensive team and you have to rush the passer. You just have to be able to win in different ways.

And that's what the Super Bowl champions usually can do. All right. That's all we got. Okay. It's our second to last. Like I mentioned, Mailbag with Nate over this summer. I think that we will get into some other stuff

when we're ramping up the training camp. We got one more. These have been fun to do. I'll continue to do them with very, guests I would have to assume throughout July, but really appreciate everyone who sent in a question. Very much appreciate the time. Very much appreciate you guys taking the time to do it. I'll see you in a couple days, buddy.

We're having some podcast meetings in Chicago this week. So you got a lot of Chicago time over the last couple months. Yeah, once wasn't enough. I got to do it twice. No, I'm, it's fair. Chicago in the summer? Yeah, I'm okay. I'm okay.

I got you. Well, I'm still finalizing the food plans, but we'll eat very well. I expect nothing less. I'll make sure that happens. All right, guys, thank you very, very much for listening. We will be back on Wednesday. For now, that's all we got.

We'll talk to you guys soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.