The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Next steps for the Falcons and Raiders at QB, and an offseason of opportunity for the Seahawks; day three from the NFL Combine

Episode Date: March 2, 2023

Our series on the most interesting teams of the offseason continues on this episode of The Athletic Football Show. This time, it's Josh Kendall (Falcons), Vic Tafur (Raiders) and Michael-Shawn Dugar (Seahawks) sitting down with Robert Mays to dive into the questions facing their respective teams as the league turns the calendar to 2023.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Josh on Twitter: @JoshTheAthleticFollow Vic on Twitter: @VicTafurFollow Michael-Shawn on Twitter: @MikeDugarSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeToday's show is brought to you by...Atlassian: For projects impossible alone, visit www.atlassian.com1:52 Atlanta Falcons20:52 Las Vegas Raiders43:32 Seattle Seahawks Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. To the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Really fun show for you guys today. Continuing our 10 most interesting teams of the off-season theme from this week, we're going to talk with Michael Sean Dugar, our Seahawks writer at The Athletic. Vic Tafer are one of our Raiders' writers at the Athletic.

Two teams that are picking in the top ten. There's a theme to these shows. A lot of top ten picks, a lot of teams that might need quarterbacks, a lot of teams that might draft a quarterback. both of those teams apply. Before we get to that, though, we're going to chat with our Falcons writer at the Athletic Josh Kendall about the fascinating position that the Atlanta football franchise is in.

Let's get to it. All right, time now to chat with our Falcons writer at the Athletic. Josh Kendall. Josh, thank you very much for doing this. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. And thank you, frankly, on behalf of the entire Atlanta Falcons organization, because I've heard you refer to this list as the 10 most interesting teams of the

all season. It has been a long time since the Falcons have been on. any 10 most interesting list. So this is a real sign of progress. I don't think this is presumptive to say. You are a listener to the athletic football show. Absolutely. You know how much of a weird fascination we have with this version of the Atlanta Falcons compared to, I think, other people who might do national NFL podcasts. So it might be my own personal tastes here. Again, weirdly fascinating. That's a bar that the Falcons haven't reached for a while. We are weirdos. So I don't think I'm necessarily representative of the larger football watching public, but this is my show.

So I get to decide who the 10 teams are. Let's get weird. They have $67 million in Capspace, and they have a top 10 pick. This is more of the teams that own the offseason, I guess is how we would frame it. And the comment that Terry Fottano made yesterday that I thought was very astute, is that if you have $67 million in Capspace, you got a lot of work to do. That is not a good place to be in the N. in the NFL, and that is where the Falcons are.

So if you're kind of stacking up in your mind as somebody covering the team, the priorities this off season, what they have to get right with some of these resources that they have, where do you start? Because with a lot of the other teams on this list, quarterback is going to be number one, no question. We need to come away from this with the quarterback. I don't know if you necessarily believe that about this team. I don't start with quarterback.

They might very well start with quarterback, but because we don't know, and that's a separate conversation. I don't start there. I start with pass rush. That probably means in their mind defensive tackle as much as edge rusher. I would expect resources to go to both of those positions.

They need secondary help. Whether that's Jesse Bates to play center field or more specifically a cornerback to start opposite A.J. Terrell. Those are things that are very clear and present dangers right now. If they go into 2023,

and Desmond Ritter is your week one starter. I think they feel okay about that. If they go into 2023 and they don't rush to pass or any better than they have for the last two years, they are not going to be okay with that. My first reaction when I hear about the Desmond Ritter plan and this lack of urgency at the position,

you got to sell ownership on that idea. You think that this group has enough leeway after having a top 10 pick this year, after not having a great season in year one, where they can win six games again this season, and that's acceptable? Because if that's the case, then by all means, keep operating on this timeline

because I don't think you should ever be pushed to that decision as you build up the infrastructure, which we can talk about. But I think that's something that you have to sell to the bosses to make it possible. And I think they do. I talked to Arthur Blank two weeks ago, and he said essentially he could swallow another seven and ten. But at that point, he will circle 2024. as, okay, now it's time, now you've had enough time.

If I'm Arthur Smith and Terry Fontno, how do I sell it? I go into his office and I say, look at the Philadelphia Eagles. They went into the season this time last year thinking, okay, we got a good football team. As soon as we find our quarterback, we're going to be okay. Well, guess what? They had their quarterback. They just had to build things out around him

and put him in a position to succeed. I think Arthur Smith thinks, and I don't think he's wrong, I think he thinks pretty highly of his ability to put together an offense. And I think because of that, he thinks he can put together a pretty good offense with Desmond Ritter. Not saying he'd take Patrick Mahomes if he became available for the right price, or any price, you know, his firstborn. But I think he thinks they can put together an offense that can win football games with Desmond Ritter. The Falcons finished 12th and weighted offensive DVOA last season with, I think,

some of the worst quarterback play in the NFL last year. I mean, you look at all the numbers. I think the Marcus Mario to lead the league an off-target rate among all starting quarterbacks. Right behind your boy, I think. Yeah, so there we go. Sorry, I don't mean to throw cold water on it. Excuse me.

All right, so you give Justin Fields Kyle Pitts for a little bit and Drake London, maybe it's a little bit different. But I agree. Let's say bottom two. It was not good. No, it was good. And they still field at a top 12 offense,

and that speaks to your point about what he can build. the Falcons to me are fascinating experiments about how you sequence the way that you build an offense because in year one with this regime they had a chance to draft Justin Fields they had a chance to draft a quarterback in their first year based on my understanding of their thinking they didn't want to drop a quarterback into what was nightmare of circumstances right no help it's the step it's the first step instead of the last step now if you don't do it this year after drafting past catchers in the last two seasons, you have pieces along the offensive line, which we can get into how they end up rebuilding that with McGarry hitting free agency. But if you push it back

another year, if you kick the can again, now you're taking it to the furthest extreme of that version of team building, where you're saying, we're going to do everything we can to make this a cushy spot for a quarterback and have the quarterback be the last piece. Pushing it off for three years, that is something we don't often see teams do. And if you push it off for a third year, If you don't think Desmond Ritter is the guy, if you think Desmond Ritter is a short bridge and not a, is not a future starter or not even a long bridge, if you just think he's a short bridge and you say, okay, we're going down to this, you know, we're going to fast forward a year and then we're going to be looking for a quarterback. Well, this is probably, you know, with the resources that they'll add, I don't think they fall below six or seven wins. So six or seven wins is not going to get you into the elite quarterback conversation next year. So then, right.

So then what do you do? then, no, do you feel like, okay, we kind of have to address it this year just because if we go down the road, the options are not going to get any better. You're at eight right now. So if you're sitting there on Thursday night, I don't think this team is willing to give up the resources to go to one, two, even three. They have so many needs. Right now. But if you get to Thursday night and you're at five or six and a guy that you like is still there, then you're talking about, Okay, now maybe we get itchy trigger from him. Now maybe, you know, if it's Will Levis,

if it's Anthony Richardson. I mean, he's the guy to me that I've now, you know, this is what we do at the Combine. We come and convince ourselves of these crazy things. I've heard seven different teams mention how much they are. I've heard people talk about seven different teams in their love for Anthony Richardson. And now it seems like at this point he's like this pipe dream that everyone thinks is going to exist at like seven or eight. He's going to be the number one picking the draft. Exactly. I went from in the span of a week's time thinking Anthony Richardson does not deserve to be in the first round to all these wild scenarios where if you're the Falcons and you think Desmond Ritter is okay and you have a chance to get Anthony Richardson

and you say, all right, come with us, go sit down, let's go watch and learn. You've got a year. We're okay with Desmond for 2023 and you're our Trey Lance or whatever. Now, that worked out great. That plan is fraught with issues. The Desmond Ritter draft status being a third round pick, what that allows you to do is it allows you to do what you did last year. There's no pressure to play him until you think that he's ready. You kind of see it through with Marcus, you work on your own timeline. The same thing is true this year.

If he ends up being your quarterback, okay. If he doesn't end up being very good, he's a third round pick. It gives them time, and it gives them space. and I think they know that, and I think that they're wielding that in the right way. So let's just say the quarterback thing does not happen. You're thinking about the rest of the offensive infrastructure. Your left tackle is in place. You have two highly drafted pass catchers.

You have an all-pro guard. You have a center and Drew Dalman who I think that, you know, we'll see what happens on the interior of the offense line. They like him. So I think he's probably a piece for this year. What are the other considerations on offense if, again, we're trying to make sure we're building up this infrastructure as well as possible for when the quarterback gets dropped in. In the not quarterback, totally non-sexy column of the conversation, Peter Skoransky, that makes a ton of sense. That's not splashy, but that's the type of move this group has done.

Conservative, check fills a need for a long time. You plug him in at left guard. You feel really good. Maybe if he's your wildest dreams, he takes over when Jake Matthews, finally retires at the age of 55 or whatever, you know, whenever we get there. So Peter Skronsky makes a lot of sense. Elijah Wilkinson came in and played really solid left guard for them, which was good enough considering the rest of that. Caleb McGarry piece is interesting. They didn't pick up the fifth-year option.

If they bring him back, that's probably going to cost them a little money. But I think they'll consider it money well spent because they got what they wanted out of Caleb and Gary last year, which was his best season as a pro. I think that the Caleb McGarry experiment last year and how that went with they got out of Elijah Wilkinson, it seems like this is a group that believes they can make offensive linemen, and then they can create offensive line production because up to this point, they've been able to do it. Right, and I think they believe, I think that they like the way Caleb and Gary fits with this group. I don't know if they love it, but I think that they like it.

So I think that you could definitely see him come back. You plug Peter Skoroski in there. You've got Tyler Alger in his second year. You've still got Cordero Patterson, who can give you a little bit of everything. they're still going to bring in another running back, might even draft a guy if they find another guy they like late, fourth or fifth round. And you've still got that running attack,

which is what they will build everything else off of. The Lamar Jackson conversation. I keep coming back to it because it makes sense to me on so many football levels. Absolutely. You look at the way the offense is structured. There really is no offense outside of Baltimore's that makes more sense for Lamar Jackson stylistically

than the way that the Falcons play. Run the ball, throw the ball over the middle of the field. All RPO's, running out of the pistol, play action, the way the run game is structured, personnel groupings that they've used. They are cousins schematically in a way that really no two offenses in the NFL are. So now you would be switching out Marcus Marietta, or 14 games of Marcus Marietta, for a former MVP who's one of the most electric players in the league. Which is something Arthur Smith has said from the podium, and he doesn't say those types of things a lot.

Says what? He said what? Says there's nobody else like Lamar. He says Lamar is one of one, essentially. So I can't get it out of my head. I can't stop imagining him in the uniform. I can't stop imagining what it would look like with Drake Lennon and Kyle Pitts, what Arthur Smith could do with him.

Again, we're talking about a top 12 offense here that had Marcus Marietta for most of the season. What could it be with Lamar Jackson? So throw some cold water on why this is a bad idea if you're the Falcons. So let's imagine a world where NFL head coaches, and to a lesser degree of general managers are huge control freaks. Let's imagine that world for a minute. You have spent two years being very patient and getting kicked in the teeth of a fair amount of time

to get to a situation where you have $67 million worth of cash space, where you feel like you have the resources to build things. It's a large roll of the dice to say, we are going to put everything we have done and everything we will do into the future, onto the shoulders and knee of one guy, whoever it is. But considering the way Lamar plays, considering we've seen two seasons

where his health has dramatically affected his production, considering from the outside looking in, I don't know that any of us know how much his happiness, his personal happiness, affects his production on the field. So if you're the Falcons, that's a lot of resources,

That's a lot of cap space. That's a lot of draft picks to roll that dice to say, we are putting everything in Lamar's basket. He not only has to stay healthy, he has to stay happy. If he's both of those things, it's a scary offense, and it's worth every bit of that. And who cares if you can rush to pass or because you can score 35 a game? These are the decisions that guys like Terry Fine

ultimately have to make, right? You can just kick the can down the road. You can do what makes sense. You can work on specific timelines, especially if ownership is on board, or you can take huge, huge swings. Huge huge swings can win you Super Bowls, but they can also get you fire. What is this group? What is this group done so far? They took Kyle Pitts.

They didn't roll the dice on a quarter, but, you know. They worked at their own pace, for sure. And just sort of made the next logical step in the progression. And I think that's what they're comfortable with. So can they get out of their comfort zone enough? But you're right. I mean, what are you trying to do? Are you trying to build the Steelers where you are always, you know, where you are baseline,

nine and eight, and in the good years you're in the mix? Are you trying to build a team that absolutely will be, can be a contender in the nearish future? I understand both arguments. Absolutely. And I think that there's validity to both arguments. And with the second argument, it's just one of those things where, you have to do it at some point. If we're looking at what wins in the NFL consistently,

you need a quarterback at some point. Is this the best opportunity? With all the cap space, with a top 10 pick, is this going to be your best route to get a guy? Whether it's Lamar or somebody in the draft, that's the only thing I worry about is that this team overperforms a little bit again next year. The 11th pick in the draft,

these two guys that we think are really, really, really good prospects go one and two, maybe one other guy, pops during the college season. It's hard to even go get him. Right. It's just, you never know what's going to happen down the road about your pathways to find the guy. And it seems like this year, they have pathways to find either a guy in the draft or somebody that has rare talent like Lamar does. And if you miss on that opportunity, do those opportunities dry up down the road for you? That's my question. This is the opportunity. Yes. If you feel like we have to have the guy there, yes, this is the year to go get it. I'm just not convinced they feel like they have to find

the guy there. This is Arthur Smith who pulled Ryan Tannyhill off of Miami's slag heap and said, you know, we got a pretty good offense. Now he had Derek Henry. But, you know, I'm just not sure that they believe that they have to have one of a half dozen guys there. And I think what happened in Philadelphia, probably if that's the way they're feeling buttressed, their argument in their own minds, I do think that they really like Desmond Ritter. I think that they really like Desmond Ritter. I think that they're fine with Desmond Ritter. I think that they will, you know, feel like they can be competitive if he's a 17 game starter for them next year. Last question. Ryan Nielsen, who comes in to be their defensive coordinator from New Orleans, obviously a lot of familiarity

there. Stylistically, schematically, like, what changes might you expect on that side of the ball with a new defensive coordinator in place? They, we'll talk a lot about being hybrid and not caring, you know, whether it's called a 3-4 or 4-3. But they've played 3-4 with light, with these outside linebackers as your pass rushers, guys like DeAngelo Malone and Adio Ogun Dajie, who they just spent a second and third round draft picks on last year, 250-ish guys. The guys that Ryan Nielsen has played with the Saints.

290. On the end of the defensive lines are just different-looking dudes. When you ask them how they're going to marry those two systems, they say it'll be fine, we're just looking for good football players, et cetera, et cetera. But I expect some 290 guys to come in the building. I expect some bigger guys on the defensive end. Whether they call it a 3-4 or 4-3,

I think you're going to see more of that traditional four-man front with bigger defensive ends. I think that Grady Jarrett has got to have some help. Tequan Graham is a guy they got a couple years ago, had a knee injury, was coming along fine. I think if you have Grady Jarrett, expensive free agent and a healthy Tequan-Gram, their defensive interior is significantly better,

which helps everything else. Josh Kendall, really appreciate the time, sir. Always great to chat with you. Let's do it again sometime. Thanks for having me. All right, time now to chat with one of our wonderful Raiders, writers at the athletic. Vic Taper. Vic, thank you very much for doing this.

Good to see you. Good to see you, man. All right. So last night, I'm out at the bar, as one is wont to do in Indianapolis. I'm talking to your esteem beat partner. And I was expressing my optimism about the state of the Raiders and about how quickly I think things could come together for them. in a way that really makes sense and puts them in a good spot.

Okay. And here's my argument. Okay. You have the seventh overall pick in a draft with a bunch of quarterbacks available in the top time. You could very easily land one of those quarterbacks. You put yourself on a rookie quarterback timeline, which is obviously great. You have $45 million in cap space to fill other needs if you're on that rookie quarterback

timeline. Very rarely, in my opinion, are teams picking in the top 10 with circumstances for that quarterback that are as good as the ones the Raiders have? you have arguably the best receiver in the league you have a top three top five tight end when he's healthy you have a very good tertiary receiving option in Hunter Renfro you have a franchise left tackle

and you have resources to build the rest of the offensive line potentially you have a play caller who he's not one of the best three or four in the league has been solid for a very very long time this is a team that according to a lot of advanced metrics was a borderline top ten offense last year from a quarterback they moved down from why can't this team

be relevant in 2023 with the right quarterback and very good in 2024 with the right quarterback. Yeah, I guess definitely the rosy scenario. I think that's all possible. I think the key thing is one, finding the right, and also... This is a small detail.

Right, and I think 7 is tricky because the guy you may want may not be there. So, like, I think we're all thinking, Bryce Young's just go top two of your picks, probably remember one overall. I believe today's Strouds can do really well this week and probably be up there also. top two or three picks, maybe?

So then you look at the other next group of guys. You've got Neil Levis and Orgerson, a lot of question marks. You've got to really fall in love with those guys and kind of think I can make those guys better. Their pocket mechanics and some of the decision-making is a little off, so the film's always great. So I think then you're taking a risk. So it's not like a sure thing.

Like there's definitely some risk involved, which is all true of all quarterbacks to be picking the first round. So that part of it is tricky. You're finding the right guy you can build with and, like you said, take advantage of the tools around him. I think the thing about McDaniels and the play calling is I'm not sure that's the slam dunk it was

I think like everyone said that you're coming in he's a great play caller and you're bringing you got Derek Carr Duante Adams during Wallet, Renfro and last of the offense was not very good I mean it really wasn't so now you kind of wonder was that Tom Brady? I mean it was it know all the success is really McDaniels and we look at it in Denver he was there they were terrible

and he was in the coordinator for the Rams they were terrible offensively so the track worker is not quite as good as you might think it is if you look at the non-Tom Brady year So to me, it's all question marks. But I agree there's definitely possibility for hitting the home runs. You definitely get the right guy, and he connects well with Adams, and you have the tools around him.

Their offense can be what it was supposed to be last year. Last year the plan was our offense were outscore teams. Our defense is not very good. We know that. We're going to outscore teams. We'll get to the playoffs again. And from there, you never know. So I think that way had been the plan again this year,

if Tom Brady didn't retire, I think they were going to try and do that again. And it could work. It could work again with a young. quarterback but again there's a lot more of a question mark around a young guy around josh i think around the offense and so um yeah i agree with you it's definitely possible there's definitely a scenario where it all works but it's too long the raiders usually doesn't get to that point usually something goes wrong between point a and z we're off course a little bit it's funny because the moves that they made last off season some of them you could be construers win now moves the devonte adams move the chanler jones

contract and when that doesn't work out when you fall short in the way that they did you can't build on the playoff appearance the year before. It's like, oh, man, now what do we do? But it's not like they've painted themselves into this terrible corner because I think that having some past catching options for a young quarterback, we don't always see that. So it's almost like this thing you did to win now actually puts you in a better position to get back on the right timeline. So some of the one score games they lost last year, some of the bad luck that they had. Putting them in a position to get that quarterback, it's almost like this happy accident where now they can kind of write the ship and get back onto a team-building trajectory that isn't built of like urgency and getting

ahead of yourself, but they got there on accident. I do agree that the scenario is there where you have good possibilities, but I think the problem is that they're in a weird spot because you mentioned there is talent there. They have, you know, Adams, they got Max Crosby. There is elite talent Josh Jacobs, I assume he's back. So, but you can't really do a rebuild. You have too many guys in their prime who are top 30, 40 players in NFL. So you are kind of in a weird middle ground where you're like, yeah, we can try.

and win now they're specifically road that way, but we also should really focus in our defense and rebuild and get some guys through the draft who may take a while to develop. So you are kind of this weird middle ground, which I think is always a little dangerous because you can't get stuck there. If you're not careful, you're stuck in that zone for a while. You're not

truly rebuilding. I think that's okay though, because I think that you look at teams that have found success and there are different ways to do it. You can be the Bengals, and you can totally bottom out, and you can bottom bottom out for two years, and you can start building it that way. But you can also have a team like the Eagles, where there's a little bit of both. You know, you have some of the veterans that

were left over from those other rosters. You had an offensive line that was already one of the best in the league when you dropped the quarterback in. That's kind of what I'm envisioning, where if you get on the cheap quarterback and you already have some pieces, if that guy comes together or you can really build up the roster around him, what can you do with it? And it almost feels like they've stumbled into that scenario. So I want to ask you, that seventh overall pick, do you think they are hell-bent on coming away with the quarterback from the top 10 of this year's draft? I do not.

I think that, again, they're trying, they'd like to. I think they started interviews last night. I think they come into this thing, they want to fall in love. They want to find their right guy. They want to find the guy. This is a guy. He's got the talent. He's got the head, you know, smart guy.

He's tough. We can work with him in the offense. He can develop. That's the goal, I think. But you say that, and every year is like five, seven guys, you know, top of the draft quarterbacks. Most of them don't pan out. Usually there's only two or three true elite prospect.

per draft, that same quarterback. I want to generalize. So this year, I imagine the... That might even be optimistic. Yeah, exactly. So, we're top seven guys in the draft or top six guys. Probably a couple are really going to pan out.

So I think it's, you got to be sure, because if you are, Judge McDaniels and Dave Ziegler, once you get that guy and you say, this is my guy, then that's your guy going forward. You can't really, like, in three years, like, well, that wasn't my guy. I want to do over. This is pretty much the way you're going down.

So I think for them, they want to make sure they get the guy, And if they don't, I think they're comfortable getting a guy next year. I think they can do the Jared Stidham stopgap thing, maybe get a guy, a rookie like the third or fourth round that you're in a draft, a guy you can develop and see that might work. But I'm not sure the urgency is there. They have to get the guy now. I think Mark Davis gave these guys enough rope where they're like, you know what?

Let's try and get the guy now. But if we can't, we're not going to force it, and we'll try and win another way and get the guy next year. Yeah, it's that idea of the quarterback hit rate. I believe this. I think that the way you look at the history of the league, I think quarterbacks are failed as often as they fail. And that's why I think this team is just a little bit different.

Like if you compare a young quarterback with a Devante Adams, it's just rare. If you look at the quarterback's success stories over the last five, six years, guys that were drafted in the top 10 in the first two rounds, okay, the guys that have ultimately panned out. Let's list them off. Patrick Mahomes, Deshawn Watson, early in Houston, Josh Allen, Joe Burrow, Justin Herbert, Jalen Hertz now.

If you look at the past catching options those six guys have had, Lamar is kind of a weird exception where it's built through him, but it's almost a different thing with him. Josh Allen, they trade for Stavon Dix. Joe Burrow gets Jamar Chase in year two. They already had T. Higgins. Justin Herbert had Keenan Allen on the roster when he was drafted. Jaywin Hertz, they trade for AJ Brown this year after drafting Devonte Smith in the first round.

Patrick Mahomes had Tyree Kill and Travis Kelsey on the team when he arrived there. All of these guys, all of them, the past catching options either accelerated their development or made these guys comfortable early on, and that is the difference that this team would have compared to a lot of other teams drafting in the top seven. Usually when you're drafting in the top seven, you don't have the best receiver in the league. And they do. And so that's why it's intriguing to me. I'll give you this also.

I think I bash Josh a little bit earlier about what I'll say. McDonald's had success with Mac Jones. a couple years ago. So you saw him develop a young guy kind of quickly, and a guy was able to come in and make some plays. Very competent, very fast. Yeah, so I get that. So I definitely, I see the positives in Josh Resmay as well. So I do agree it's very intriguing if you can't find the right guy and you can't plug him into

the system and the guys around him. There's a chance the offense. And again, the bar is not very high. And the offense was like 12 last year. It wasn't what it was supposed to be. It was supposed to be a much better offense. So you can't probably get to that 12 range again. I would think if Josh Jacobs is the guy he was last year. He should be. He's elite running back.

So I think you can't have success offensively with a young guy if he's the right guy, and he comes in. And again, maybe it takes five weeks. I mean, you, like, have Dirt Stim start the first five weeks, then the guy takes him over that point. That's also, and people are down on Ders Stim. I think he looked good at two games. I used the bad comparison.

I say he's a Dirt Poor Man's Brett Fav, the way he plays, kind of like, which is fun to watch. Not just poor, it's dirt poor. Yeah, he likes them plays, but also he can turn him all over. but that's what, and he can run a little bit, he can get out of the pocket. So I think as far as Top Cap guys go, he's exciting when he will get the crowd going a little bit and he'll get some wins for you. But so I think that's fine for a handful of games.

And then at that point, you can bring a guy in and all sorts of them to go. Let's talk about the Josh Jacobs situation. You think he's on the roster next year, either on the tag or on an extension? I do. I think at this point the Raiders are kind of in a corner. I think once they decided not to give him an extension last year, the fifth year extension. And he did so well. like, you know, elite top five running back,

made the top three running back in the league, and you lose, you lost their car. So I don't think you can tell a fan base, you know what? He wasn't worth it. And the locker room probably, right? I'm sure he's well-liked. Yeah, so I think it's a, you kind of missed your chance. So now you've got to bite the bullet.

Ideally, it's a longer-term contract. They can both work out. I'm not sure they're going to agree on a price. So I think the franchise tag is fine. I think that's $10 million. Yeah. For running backs, it's palatable. I think you tell Josh, look, we'll try and get it,

taking care of more down the road, but this is for now. We make sure you secure. We're going to build him around you. Josh wants to win. He's got a raiders tattoo on his arm, so definitely he's vested. You want to get more mileage out of that thing, for sure. He's got the shield. So, like, I mean, in Max and Clee Farrell, all the three guys put the tattoo on their arm,

and two out of three is not bad, right? So I do think Josh is back. I think it might be the tag, but I don't think that's just really a bad thing. I think that's okay for now. So they're looking at about $48 million in cap space right now. I'm staring it over the cap. With about $29 million in dead money. It's a fascinating roster because they've committed to some guys financially,

but they don't really have that many expensive players. So Devante has a $14.7 million cap hit this year. It's 25 next year. And then 2025, it's $44 million. Not sure he's ever going to see that $44 million. Probably not. But they have a lot of financial flexibility. On the offensive side of the ball,

do you think at least some of that spending power goes to remaking the offensive line. You know what? I thought they should have done that last year, but I think Josh McDaniels' philosophy is that, and he's really good at looking at Josh this. He's really good at skimming protections, help, you know, whether it's a chip block or the running back

or like this extra guy on one side, just sitting in the double teams. He's really good at skimming up protection, so I think he can get by with not, you know, elite top-tier guys. And just look, last year, the line wasn't bad. I mean, talent-wise, you looked at the roster, like, who the hell of these guys? These guys are, what the whole thing here?

They weren't bad. I mean, and so I think Josh goes into this thing. I can make it work. So I think, yeah, ideally get a couple of guys with better pedigree, more, you know, quote, talent and skill sets. But I think he can make it work regardless. So I'm not sure it's a high priority. I think for them, it's all about defense.

They need, I mean, they probably need nine new starters in defense. It's that bad. So I think draft, free agency, it's all going to be about, let's get guys who can come in and make plays. You know, sacks, turnovers. We need guys who can make impact. And the offense will take care of. Obviously, it's his thing, but they've got to put more of the money and more attention on defense of this offseason.

So let's stack up positional priorities. First thing, like, we have all this money. What is the number one thing you're spending on if the right guys there? I think D-Tackle. I think they both believe that they want to build the inside out. So last year they signed like, I want to say eight D-Tackles last year, and then none of them were drafted two of them. None of them worked out. They tried to, like, you know, throw eight guys at it and maybe two will fall out.

It didn't work out. So I think this year they're going to try and find a guy. there's definitely a good run stopper with some push a little bit in the pass rush. So detackling need a couple linebackers and need a safety or two. I think it's going to be the hole from the front of the back, add a piece wherever you can.

In terms of just the general feeling around the McDaniels era after year one, there is this kind of expectation and desire to kind of build on what they were in 2021 when they kind of stumbled into the playoffs, right? I mean, it's It's not a guarantee that you're a playoff caliber team, even though you made the playoffs.

What is the feeling just around this regime now among Raiders fans and the way that they're looking at this group? Wader fans are nuts. And I love them. I was trying to say it in nicer terms than that. I love them. To give you an idea of how crazy they are, I believe right now trending on Raiders' Twitter is Marcus Marriota.

They want to bring back Marcus as the guy, which I love Marcus as a person, but that clearly is not the answer. So I just think they're kind of a delusional bunch. And I think half of them were so tired of Derek Carr. They hid their car. So that was a move. They're like, oh, finally, these guys are.

So another half, like, you know what? He's the best guy we've had in 20 years. Why are we doing this now? We have no one to replace him. Like, we have this a void there, which is also true. But I think they're split, I think. And I used to the problem is when you come in off a playoff year, people think, okay, we're a playoff team.

We're going to go back next year. We're on the rise. And you're not. So they blame the coach for that. They blame Derrick Carr. So I think right now, Radio Nation is kind of all over the place. I think they love to have a new quarterback.

They wanted to have, you know, Aaron Rogers, if that worked out, but that's not going to happen. So I think the new hope now is to get a guy, like we said, in the first round, get a quarterback. You can build a round. It guys are exciting. And they can kind of go forward on that path. I think that the way that Ziegler and this group

handled the Derrick Carr situation is exactly how you should have handled the Derrickar situation. I'm with you. I think people criticize them for like, well, you can't lose an asset for nothing. But this is a very unique situation because you come into a team that made the playoffs you can't come in and say, you know what, this guy's not our guy. The quarterback committed the playoffs last year who kind of overcame

the rugs thing and the Gruden thing, led the locker room forward through that ridiculous season, he's not our guy. We've done enough, you've got to give him a chance. And you bring him Devante Adams, you give him $30 million which is not bad for the top 15 quarterback. It's about having the flexibility to move on. And the only criticism

I think is, does he have the leverage in that moment that demand the no trade clause where you can't, when we get to the end of it, you don't get anything for him. That I think you can absolutely criticize. But the idea that you go into those negotiations and say, all right, you can say you make $40 million a year now, but if we want to move on after this year, you can. So the gesture you go through of, we're bringing back the guy that brought us to the playoffs. We want to win now. We're not tearing this down. But if it ultimately doesn't work out and you want to turn the page to your own guy, you have the flexibilities to do that.

And that's exactly what happened. And I also think that, It's one of those situations where having a quarterback like Derek Carr, who is the 12th best quarterback in the league for $35 million, eventually that can hamstring you. That type of quarterback, you don't want to tie yourself to that long term if you have other options. So I think giving themselves pathways to a different answer at the position and the way that they did ultimately was the right move and ultimately I think is going to benefit them. Yeah, I agree with you. I think the no trade clause was in exchange for the three-day window they can get out of the contract. So it's kind of like I'm going to make a deal like,

it's not working out, we're going to walk away, but you'll have an out, and we're not going to trade it anywhere we want. So I get it. I think, I mean, the question mark is because they put a hardball and may not give them an extension, come in last year of his deal. I mean, we would have held out. He's not going to hold out anymore, but it would have been different, different environment, different energy around the team if that happened.

Yes. So I think you're all in. Like, you know what? We'll give you a contract. You're our guy. We love you. Here's Devante Adams. Sears, Waller, Renfro, let's go.

This offense should be better. We have Josh McDaniels, a great play caller. We're going to outscore teams. And if it works out, the contract we gave you is not a bad contract going forward. It's fine. But it didn't work out for a lot of reasons. But they didn't click, and here we are. It just feels like you get into week five, six. You remember just how sky is falling, everything felt with where this team was.

And in my opinion, and maybe I'm far enough removed from it where I don't see all the warts, it feels like we're not, we're pretty far away from that, right? Like, there is, to me, a justifiable sense of optimism about the resources that they have, about the options that they have, where when you're looking at it on Halloween last year, it just felt like it was in a much worse place than it is right now. Yeah, it was some really horrible losses last year. Like, last year, like, last two, last two, last two, last two, the Rams game was terrible.

There were some moments where you thought it might work, like the game against Denver, they had to walk off. Levantay, locker room was like Chan Derek's name. Josh Huggin. They'll guess that actually may work. But again, NFL's the week-to-week league and it didn't work out in a long run. But I agree there's, it all depends on what your thoughts are

on Dave Ziegler and Josh McDaniels. If you have optimism of other guys, then yeah, this roster is set up to kind of have an exciting opportunity here to take advantage of it. But if they're not, and we don't really know yet. We don't. I mean, it's hard to make a determination about that at this stage. Yeah, and the key things will be like this week.

I mean, the draft will be huge for these guys because the problem with this roster it goes back to the last two regimes. They drafted horribly. I mean, it was like unbelievably, I think it was like 30 top three round picks and like four panned out. It's just a horrible number.

Historically bad. Like a historically bad run. You can't do worse. So these guys have to draft well. And if they do, I think things will work out. Yeah, I think that my optimism is more about the resources than about the guys making the decisions

because we don't know. Like there's no way to know how optimistic you should be about their ability to make the right choices with what they have, but they have enough where it's like, I don't know, man, I'm kind of intrigued by it, I want to see what they do.

For sure. I mean, like, and we'll see these young quarterbacks. I mean, if Richardson's the guy and you can get them at seven, then you may be, you may hit a home run. It's terms of his skill level and his skill set, and the potential he has to make play with his feet and his arms and his leg, I think that's definitely an

exciting guy, so if he is there at seven, if he's your guy, there are some exciting possibilities for sure. All right. Big Taper. Thank you very much for the time. Good to see you. All right. Time now to chat with our Seahawks writer here at the athletic, Michael Sean Dugar. Good to see you, man.

I mean, I've seen you. I saw you last night. I've seen you around. But it's good to actually do this again and chat some football. Yeah, man. I'm happy to be here, man. I'm a big fan of your show. Thank you, man.

I appreciate that. All right. The reason the Seahawks are involved with this, okay? I don't really know what they're going to do. So we did a quarterback carousel show like two weeks ago. me and Nate did. And I didn't really talk about the Seahawks that much because in my mind, Gino's going to be there.

I just thought they were going to commit to Gino. I don't know why I'm thinking this, but in my head, it's like Gino Smith is the quarterback of the Seahawks. He's going to be the quarterback of the Seahawks for the next couple of years. How sure are we that Gino is like a multi-year commitment for this team or is quarterback on the table at 5 to you? It's 100% on the table. And this is where the philosophy and the background of the general manager is

important. John Snyder, you know, he was a mentee of Ron Wolf in Green Bay, and he was a mentor of Ted Thompson. And what did he learn from those guys? Several things, but one of them was take a quarterback. Ron Wolf just kept taking quarterbacks. Now, Brett Farrve was healthy, so they didn't need those guys, but they just kept taking him, kept taking him, kept taking them. And John has publicly lamented the fact that they've taken two quarterbacks. This is going to be his 14th draft as a gym of the Seahawks. He's taken two. Russell Wilson in 22. and at Alex Magoo in the seventh round of the 2018 draft. There's no way that's a real person.

Yeah, I know it's. Sounds like a movie character, yes. But that's, he's never taking one in the first round. So John is of the school that, hey, yo, we got to take a guy every year because the asset is too valuable. And he's correct. And even when Russell Wilson was at his peak, John still went to Patrick Mahomes Pro Day. You know how bad you got a one of the guy to fly to Lubbock? Just, you know, like, you got to want a guy pretty bad.

The very next year, Russell Wilson was fresh off of leading the league and touchdown passes in 2017. He was Seattle's leading rusher in 2017. John flew to Wyoming to go see Josh Allen. So that just shows you that having a good, even well-compensated quarterback on the roster does not dissuade John for being interested in the high quarterbacks. You know, they had pick, I don't even know if they had a first-round pick in 2017. They had pick like 18 in 2018 in the Josh Allen draft. he's still scouted guys who went in the top 10.

So yes, when you look at John's background, because he's making the pick, right? So when you look at his background, a quarterback is totally in play at 5. Now which quarterback, we can talk about that for two hours. But his background suggests that he's not bluffing when on Tuesday he said that we will seriously consider taking a quarterback. I think you have to say that for multiple reasons.

One, you want to drum up as much interest in that pick as possible for the quarter teams that might move up because we were talking about this with Joe Person yesterday. If you're a team looking to move up, there aren't that many like natural dance partners for me. No. Because Arizona, first year GMs are always kind of a wild card. You look at other teams that have been in that position.

The comparison I've made consistently is 2021 draft. You have Terry Fonton who picking it four. First year as a GM. You have Brad Holmes picking seven first year as a GM. They put, they pick guys. They pick elite players. If Will Anderson, guys like that are available at that number three pick because quarterbacks went one too,

if you're a Mona Austin for it's like fuck it I'm just taking the guy I'm taking the good guy I'm not going to worry about it so if that dries up the Colts maybe trade up to one maybe they stay put it for Seattle now becomes like a natural trade partner for teams that maybe want to go up and get that guy if Seattle doesn't want one so if I'm John Schneider I'm telling everybody

who will listen that I love all the quarterbacks because I want to make that pick as attractive as possible yeah in my head I like to think of like the most extreme versions of things so I imagine John just like getting in an Uber and telling the Uber driver, yeah, no, man, I just saw this guy named Will Levis.

Like, he's great. And then getting on the flight and the flight of tennis says, hey, would you like some cookies? And he's like, yeah, but you know who really likes cookies? Anthony Richardson, you know, and just telling everybody, everything he feels about all of these quarterbacks. Because you're right, as much as I just gave the context about the fact that John's probably not bluffing when he said that,

he's got value in bluffing. He's in set tovise to talk about him in this way. And also, Judge Steyer is the type of guy. I think they would just talk to a random barista about how much he loves Anthony Richardson. What do you think is the most likely outcome for the Seattle Seahawks quarterback room in 2023? I think Gino's going to be the starter in 2023.

On what sort of deal? Is it the tag? Is it a long-term contract? How does Gino get brought back? That's a good question. I would guess that it's a three-year deal that's really a two. Yeah, it makes sense. And the way Seattle structures its contracts, usually they give you a signing bonus,

and they guarantee the base salary in year one. and the base salary in year two, like vests later, usually the fifth day after the waiver period is usually Seattle's pretty standard contract structure. So, for example, D.K. Metcalf and Quadra Diggs just signed three-year deals last off-season, and their contracts for, their base salaries for this season just became guaranteed, like, February 17th or something like that.

So I could see Gino having a structure like that because, A, they do it like that, usually. But the other reason would be, let's say you don't have a, base salary guarantee for 2024 on a three-year deal for Gino. You can still take a guy in 2023 at 5. Say you believe in Gino, but if he goes a Derek Carr path, you have the same thing as the Raiders. The Raiders out and out.

It's a very similar situation to what the Raiders just did with Derek Carr. So I think Gino will be back on a multi-year deal because that gives them the most flexibility, not only to still take a quarterback, but then fix the roster. I mean, we all saw that playoff game in San Francisco. John said it the other day, he said, our guys know what it looks like. We know. We got the shit beat out of us. So that's the standard.

Very similar to when the Rams won the championship. Oh, we know what championship football looks like. We played those guys twice to kick their ass. So I think Gino, on a long-term deal, gives them the flexibility, not only build the team, but they can still get out of it. You know, if the clock strikes 12 on them, you know, Cinderella, you know, not the fine jointed the ball no more. And then in 2024, they can move on if they need to.

That feels like the best solution for me. And we had this conversation with Colton Pouncey earlier in the week about where the lions are at. All the same shit applies to the Seahawks. You have a team that made the playoffs last year. The Lions even made the playoffs last year. The Seahawks did. If you commit to Gino on that sort of deal

that gives you flexibilities and off-ramps over the next two years, but you pick a quarterback at five, you can very easily play Gino this year, see how it plays out, let that guy sit, you be competitive, and then you hand the keys over to whoever you drafted five in 2024 when the team is kind of ready to do that. All of that applies.

And I think that this is, and I think, maybe Pete said it yesterday. It's a rare opportunity that they have. And that's the word I kept using way too many times on the show we did with Colton. It's a rare chance to trade your way into the top five with this sort of roster, with these sort of pieces, where you can have your cake and eat it too.

You can be competitive, but you can also build for the future. I think a lot more teams would want to do what the Chiefs did if they were in a position to do it. Correct. And the Seahawks are one. of those very few teams that if they want to pursue that path is in a position to follow that model. Yeah.

To put in perspective how rare it is, right? So the Seahawks had the sixth pick in 2010. They took Russell Locoon. That was off of the Jim Mora 2009 Seahawks going, I believe, 5 and 11. So that wasn't even a Pete Carroll. They had a native top 10 pick, but it wasn't Pete's fault, right? The only other time they've had a native top 10 pick was last draft. And it was pick 10 that went to the Jets because of the-

the Jamal Adams trade, but it was the one that became Garrett Wilson. And that was still only picked 10. Pete Carroll has only been the coach one time where they have then had a top 10 pick. And even that's the year Russ broke his finger. You know, that just puts in perspective. Pete Carroll and Mike Tomlin are very similar in that way. They just don't suck enough to be here. And Pete Carroll knows that.

There's that clip I love of Mike Tomlin talking to Chase Young before a game a couple years ago. He said, I don't ever want to lose as many games. You've got to lose to get you. Because Mike Tom was like, I don't do that. So yes, it's super rare. puts it perspective, and even now their top five pick is from Denver. You know, their native pick is 20, so it's so rare, and they're going to keep that in mind with, we can't just pass on a guy because we might not ever be here again.

That is why I think you just have to think so long and hard about it, because you're not going to have the pathways to do this again. You hope you don't, and I think that P. Carroll, like Mike Tomlin, deserves the benefit of the doubt with that kind of stuff. We're going to win 9, 10 games, even if all this shit hits the fan. And if we know that, then I think you have to jump on this sort of chance. And I don't know, man. It's just the tone of this conversation where we are with this team compared to where things were on like August 1st last year.

It just is wild that this is the space my brain is in as it relates to the Seattle Seahawks right now. So many things changed. I mean, even with the report of Russ trying to get those guys fired to kind of put in perspective, why they were so fired up for that Monday night game in week one. and why the emotional hangover caused them to get their ass kicked by the Niners seven to six days later because they were still so hung over emotionally from that. They are in a really good position, though. I've talked to some people around the team while I've been here in Indianapolis,

and they just feel really good. They have to. And I've been telling them, just like my opinion, this is not what they're telling me, but the Eagles are a blueprint for them. You guys remember, the Eagles in 2021 were like 9 and 8. They were competitive, but it was very clear the Bucks were a better team in that wildcar game. and what did they do? They hit some home runs,

but it wasn't that they just went on a spending frenzy. They drafted really well. They made the big deal for AJ Brown. They got the James Bradbury deal, Hassan Reddick. They did all of these things, Chauncey Conner Johnson. They did all of these moves in one off season and jumped from a wild car team to contender.

And I think the Seahawks feel like they can make a similar jump. You know, with the draft capital, with the cap space, the young players that they have. Like, I think of all the guys, Robert, that they have that are making nothing. Yeah. Charles Cross. When you hit on that draft, I mean, it reminds me in 2012, right? Like, when you do that, the amount of flexibility and excess value that it creates, you can do so many different things with it. So let's just say in this hypothetical world, they do draft a quarterback at five. Do you think they should? If it were you, and there was a guy there that you liked, you do it.

Oh, there's a pause. Okay, so as much as I've talked it up, I don't think I would. You're a coward. So here's the thing. So it depends on whose lens you view at first. And this is where I think more teams should, more people who cover their teams to think about it this way. Do the motivations of the general manager and the head coach align? That's important. Taking a quarterback at five is a long-term play.

Even if it's just like next year. Pete Carroll is a 70-year-old man. Coaches are just general coaches are usually into the short term because they need to win now. Everybody is one season away from potentially getting fired. You just never know. You never know. Ask Nathaniel Hackett about that. Like every coach has to think about winning right now, putting the best product out there.

Pete Carroll is going to be in his, I think, 14th season with the Seahawks. How long term can he think? And so that's important here because Pete Carroll has veto power over the roster. John can beat the drum for Andy Dalton in 2011, and Pete can tell him, no, I don't want him. You know, John can beat the drum for Russell Wilson in 2012, and then Pete can go, okay, it's third rounder. We'll take it back. Here's one for you. Yeah, but that veto power is very important here because I don't think their vision aligning is why they've been so successful, but does it align here?

They've never been here. It's unprecedented. They've never had to discuss a top five pick together. So I would probably look at it from Pete's view as who can help us win a championship in 2023? Will Levis cannot do that. Anthony Richardson cannot do that if you pay Gino. So I would think, can Jalen Carter help us win a championship? Can Tyree Wilson?

Can Willie Anderson? Can even the tackle guard from Northwestern? No. All right, so let's go down that path. They don't draft the quarterback at five. Lay out a perfect Seattle Seahawks offseason for me. Okay. I think you still have to make some moves in free agency.

But you can. They have some money. They don't really spend. I still have to look this up, but I'm pretty sure their highest free agent contract in terms of like new dollars to an outside guy is still Matt Flynn. I'm pretty sure that this is.

You knew Osu from last year is probably, like, weirdly, in the conversation. I think Chenna's, too. Yeah. I think it's Matt Flynn, like, three years, 26, and Chenna was like two years, 19 and some change. Like, that puts a perspective. They don't spend, right? They didn't have to for a long time. Yeah, they didn't have to.

So I think that you make a few low-key moves. You know, you extend Ryan Neal, your safety who got all pro votes, you know, backing up Jamal Adams. I think you go get another inside linebacker. Or someone you're familiar with, maybe like Aziz from the 49ers, 51 with the big elbow bris. You know, because the Niners can't pay Greenlaw, Fred Warren, and him. Yep. And the Seahawks love getting guys from the division because they've seen them.

They're familiar. Sure. Usually people in the division are playing similar schemes, which the Niners are playing something similar to what the Seahawks want to do. So you make a couple shrewd moves like that. You get a veteran that could potentially be Y receiver three. They've done moves like that in the past. What kind of player profile stylistically is that third receiver for you? It's a slot guy that gives you like that, just fast a defense they haven't really had?

Yeah, he doesn't need to be fast as much as he needs to be sudden. Yeah. And I think that's the word I love using because when I rewatch Doug Ball and stuff, that was it. I don't even know how fast Doug Ball ran a 40, but Doug was very sudden. And when you're trying to just manipulate those underneath coverages, it's you versus a linebacker, but it's really just you versus space. Can you find the space? I went to Washington State, you know, when we had Mike Leach.

So that was the thing he taught the receivers. Find grass. You know, find grass. That's what we would teach the guys. And that's what they need from that slot guy. I would love like a Zayflowers. So that was going to my question. If you're picking a 20 and that seems to be the range where some of those past catching options might be available,

that might be the place to do it because the free agent group is, we know. Yeah. He's not good. No. So I think, like, I did a mock draft where I had them trading back from 5 to like 8 or 9, taking Tyree Wilson from Texas Tech, taking Osiris Torrance at 20 because they need a plug-and-play guard as well. And then I traded back into the first round in that mock with, Philly, I believe, it picked 30 and took Zay Flowers. I loved it.

Now, my comments weren't as great, but like I loved it. You took a guard in the first round. I'm sure people weren't overly enthusiastic about it. Oh, my goodness. I feel like, I think the most first round grades, the Seahawks have probably ever had, is probably like 20 first round grades on prospects, which tells you why they trade back so often. So, yeah, taking a guy at 20, if you had a first round grade on him, he's a guard. I mean, they've taken a running back. They take, you know, all kinds of things. But I think that you asked me what's a perfect offseason, I think you get a draft like that where you fill so many needs

right away and go. And just, that's what they did last year. They filled a lot of needs. Like, I'm going toot my own horn here. I did a bunch of mock drafts last year. I picked like five of their guys. A couple of them I got the spot right. Dave Lucas, I got that right.

Kobe Bryant, I got that right. Tarik Willan, I got that right. Charles I got that right. Why? Because it was so obvious what they needed and the move was there. So the perfect off season is you get another inside linebacker. You get a veteran and receiver three, you get another young receiver in the draft. You find a guard. You get a center

now because Austin Blath retired. So that's a very important variable as well. You get another inside linebacker in the draft. Again, Wazoo, go draft Day on Henley. I'm biased there, but if he's there in the 50s, go ahead. I think that, and you pay Gino, you can make a run. You can chase the Niners in 2023. On defense, obviously, like a lot of a young, intriguing defensive backs, they did a really good job rebuilding that group. Feels like pass rush pop is like one of the other things that you, you you would like to come away with this offseason with? Is that, would you say that's fair?

Oh, my goodness. They've been chasing a double-digit sack guys since they traded Frank Clark. Yes. I remember being there, Frank Clark's season in Seattle, we had 13 and a half sacks. Should have been 14 and a half. They took one away from him. He, every week I was like, Frank, that bag is going up. Every week I would tell him, I was like, bag going up.

And he was like, yep, every week. And then they didn't pay him. You know, and since then. He did okay. Yeah, he's doing it. Yeah, he's just, you know, the AFC championship game is like Frank Clark. invitational, but he's been there so much. But you look at the number one, look at all the moves they've had to do since then.

Go getting a Darrell Taylor in a 2020 draft, signing Ziggy Ansah. People don't remember that they did that. Trading for Jadae Van Clowney. Collier. So many times they've tried to like take a bite at that and just has not worked out. Yeah, had to go sign Chena. They've done, you know, they called Bruce Irvin off his couch in Atlanta in October. Said, Bruce, can you still rush the passer?

He said, not only can I do that, I can set the edge. coach and they brought him out here. You know, drafted way, Maffa, 40th overall, and last year's draft, they've had to just exert so much energy to try to fill that void. So, yeah, you need a double-digit guy, you know, it's very similar to the NBA where you need someone that can create double teams so that we're playing five-round-four when they, you know, they come help, you know, in the NFL, you need someone that's a guard needs to help, you know, a tight-end needs to chip, a back needs to help.

When you don't have that, they play you straight up, and you have years like the Seahawks where they just couldn't get to the quarterback enough. I have a weird question for you. I have a weird answer. Last year, the way that that season went, how they were relevant through everything, how they overperformed expectations, how they were just so much better

than anybody could have really anticipated. What do you think you learned about Pete Carroll last year? I learned the strength of his culture and his messaging. So for context, I'm from Seattle, but I didn't start covering the Seahawksville 2017. So a lot of that Legion of Boom energy, I didn't get to feel as much. Like the year I got there is when Earl Thomas demanded that the Cowboys go get them that year. That's when Cam Chanson basically broke his neck.

Cliff Averillard did as well. They traded Michael Bennett after that year. Shurn Blue was Achilles, so I just came there and it all fell apart. So I didn't get really to feel the culture. And then they were just in flux. They fired the OC after that, fired the D.C. Pete's hired like two new D.C. since then, a couple new O.C. So I get to feel the culture as much.

and you just see how important messaging is and how important that the coach's mindset is a reflection of the building. Pete is so optimistic. I think about this moment, it wasn't that big deal in real time, but they broke a huddle in like OTAs. And Tyler Lockett like slaps his legs and like says his chant, right?

He slaps his legs twice and says, one, two, three, Super Bowl or something like this. Super Bowl. And that wasn't like April. You know, crazy Tyler looked doing that? I tweeted the video. It's where I can go back and find it. But Tyler felt that way because Pete felt that way.

You know, when they signed Chenna, who also asked Chenna, like, Chenna, why did you come here? You know, like legitimately, you saw the roster. He said, I believed in Pete Carroll. I said Pete told me who was going to compete. Even Quadra digs, he re-signed last year as a UFA. Quandre has been an alliance. He's been on some bad teams.

He re-signed to come here. And I asked him, he said, I believed in Pete. I believed in Pete. Pete told us how we were going to compete. I believed in him, and I signed. D.K. Metcalf is the same way. D. K.K. signed up for three more years of this in camp. After knowing Drew Locke and Geno the whole time,

it was like, D. D.K., why'd you do that? I believe in our guys. I believe in Gino. I believe in Drew. And he really believed in Gino because, you know, he had to play with him already. So this was just such a testament to the culture. I think we, I don't want to get too caught up in the results because, to be honest, the Seahawks didn't feel Russ would stink this much. And they didn't think Gino would play that well. You know, they kind of lucked into both for those things. But what they believed in was their culture. But that's, that's, if you put yourself in that position, these are the outcomes that are

on the table for you. And I think that the Legion of Boompoint is such a good one because I covered the NFL in those years And I remember being up there in Seattle In that 2013 season And there was a Sunday night game Between them and the Niners It was the first time I had ever been At Century Link in that era

And they felt like a force of nature Yeah They were just so different than everyone else I wrote it that night I said this is the coolest team in football And you just had Camp Chancellor And the Vizor and they had like the new uniforms And Bobby Wagner was like an ascending star

And it was Bennett and Averall And all the guys on that deal defense and the way that they played and Marshawn was there and they just felt like this thing. And eventually that fire went out and it kind of, I think they kind of had to find their way in terms of what to find the organization again. And it seems like that kind of Pete Carroll renewable energy bullshit to him is the answer. And I don't know how much I really bought into that before last year. It's a lot of like kumbaya nonsense to me. But when you see it work, it starts to get easier to buy into it.

It's the idea that I think therefore I am. Yeah. That's what it is. You speak it into existence. Even yesterday, Pete Carroll said he was talking to Greg Olson, the new quarterback's coach, and he's like, I think he's going to be great for Gino. You know, he just kind of already, it's a foregone conclusion in his head

because that's how you have to think. You know, even also yesterday, Pete Carroll answered a question about how Gino's contract is going. He said, I think it's going to go in the right direction. I followed up, I said, is that just you being optimistic? He said, yes. Like, he admitted. Like, it's like, yeah.

He's like, it could be going to. There's power in that, though. No, there really is. And I learned that from Russell Wilson, too. I know he wasn't here last year, but like, Russell Wilson, rest of peace, his mental conditioning coach Trevor Moad. I got to know Trevor a little bit before he passed away in 2021. And just the power of neutral thought and the idea that, like,

the voice you hear the most in life is your own head. Like what you say becomes reality. I think therefore I am. And that's Pete. If you tell guys, we're going to compete every day to be the best version of ourselves. Be the best version of you. I don't really care what that looks like. You can get there.

Now, obviously, you've got to stay healthy and other things have to come together. But Pete's culture just, it just shined through this year. And that's a testament to him. And he's a better man than me because if Russ would have tried to get me fired, and then I go believe in Gino, and then Russ stinks. Gino makes the Pro Bowl. We win nine games. Well, I'd be telling everybody.

I'd be taking a victory lap in peace. Just like, no, I knew this. It's not, like you said, overcoming expectations. They didn't do that. To beat, they fell short. Pete thought they're going to win a Super Bowl. I had guys telling me during the season, they was like, Mike, watch. The end of the year, it's going to be us in Kansas City.

That guys tell me that in like week six, you know. I couldn't report it at the time, but that's how confident those guys were. They didn't think they were just lovable underdog. They weren't Rudy, you know, in that story, you know, that's, and that's Pete. That's a Pete thing. And it's just, it's amazing how fast things change in the lake. And not really, right? Like, it doesn't change for them because, again, they have this mindset.

Right. But outside perception and, like, the way I process teams, like, you look at Seattle, last year and said, what the fuck are they? Right. Like, you're just there in this weird spot with the quarterback, and like, you're re-signing DK, and so you're maintaining some of the roster. You're not really tearing it down, but you're moving on from people. And they seem to be in this middle ground. It's like, how are they going to navigate this space? And they've navigated in a more deft way than I really ever could have imagined.

Look at how their resources were allocated in, like, August. You got D.K. making 24 million. Tyler making 17 million. Jamal making like 17 million. Quar-O.J. making 13 million. And then no one else in eight fingers. It was just a weird roster to be so heavily invested in receivers and safeties, a cheap quarterback, two rookie tackles. It was a very weird roster. I think that they got lucky in some ways. You said it. They didn't think the rust would be that bad.

They didn't think the Gino would be this good. You need those breaks to go your way. But I think that it was here. Is that a combine, I don't know, five, six years ago? I was talking to an analytics guy from a team, and we were just discussing the mindset about tanking and about tearing down. And he was just telling me, he's like, I don't believe in it. Like, I just think that it's so hard to lose in the NFL. It's so hard to come to work every day when you're bad.

And I think when I was young and I was kind of thinking of these things in black and white terms, it's like, well, why would you want to be in the middle? It's so hard to navigate that spot. But I think we've seen with organizations like this or the Steelers or the Ravens, there's value in always being competitive. There's value in not bringing it all the way to one side and saying, If we try to stay relevant, we try to maintain the culture and build the culture, if we get those one or two breaks, we can get back there much faster than anyone anticipates. And I think what the Seahawks have been over the last year is a testament to that idea.

And it speaks to culture as well, though. You talk to veterans about, like, when you tank, right? No, players don't take. Neither do coaches. But just even the idea of it is to get guys to go out there and run their heads into the wall every Sunday, you know, and lose just so some kid who's at Ohio State right now could come in. and replace them. Like, if you look at it from the players' perspective and kind of humanized them in that way, like I said, the Seahawks wouldn't do that this year,

and they were going to tank or something like that. Quadrae Diggs turned 30 in, like, January. That brother is not about to be over there, fill in the alley, you know, the single high safety taking on running backs or, you know, corners aren't going to be taking on pulling guards and, you know, outside zone, just so some kid who's at TCU right now

could come replace him next year and then be the future of the franchise. Now football's too violent for that. Yeah, it's just look at centers and guards and detoures. That's almost a concussion waiting to happen at every snap. And there's something to be said for, like, being competitive and acknowledging that we're going to fight. Football is a fight.

Always compete, right? Always compete. I thought it was so cheesy, but it's also one thing last year that really, it was really obvious is Pete Carroll has to always compete kind of slogan thing, but it felt more genuine than, for example, Broncos' coaching, let's ride. I'm not trying to take a dig at Russ, but that just kind of illustrates the difference. It felt like Russ was like a politician trying to get us to believe Broncos County, Les Ryder, get us to believe Gohawks, when Pete believed always competing. He lives it. Yes, he actually, you know, lives that.

Like when Russ had that bad game where he almost had to just like throw up the words, Broncos, I think it was the Colts game. I think one of those games. Pete doesn't have to do that. It just comes so, and he doesn't have to say it every time he talks either. He lives it and he feels it. And when you're always just so much value in that, guys just come in ready to win. They come in ready to win, whether they're a Tariq Wulin or they're a Cheninuosu in year five.

They're Tariq Wulina. They never played corner before. They both came in ready to win because the Seahawks are associated with winning, just like the Ravens and just like the Steelers. Michael Sean, always get to chat with you, man. I always love it. Appreciate the time. Let's do this against some time. Oh, yeah.

Thank you, man. Appreciate you. All right, guys. That's all we got today. Thank you so much to Josh. Thank you so much to Michael Sean. and to Vic. We will be back tomorrow.

We're doing a crossover episode. Me, Nate, and Hogan Johns. It's time to blow out what the Bears might do. Among all of the teams, I think the Bears might be the most interesting this off season with all the different things that they could do. So we are doing this right. All four of us are going to be hopping on the show tomorrow.

Please come back and check that out. Also, if you have not listened to the third episode to Sean Reed's narrative podcast series between the lines that is available in your podcast feed right now. You can also please subscribe to The Athletic where you can read the work from all of these wonderful people that you're hearing from on the show this week. We'll be back tomorrow from Indy.

Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.