The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - NFC QB supporting cast rankings

Episode Date: June 18, 2025

If the AFC is defined by the league's superstar quarterbacks, then the NFC is where the meticulously constructed offenses and elite playcallers can be found. That means the exercise of ranking the supporting casts in the NFC is not for the faint of heart. Luckily, we've got Robert Mays and Derrik Klassen at our disposal. The pair ranks the NFC's supporting casts from worst to first on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Hosts: Robert Mays and Derrik KlassenExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...⁠Apple⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠YouTube⁠Follow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. It's NFC Supporting Cast Day. We did the AFC last week, me and Derek Kasten, we're digging into the NFC today. We did this exercise last off season. I really enjoyed it. I wanted to bring it back.

If you did not listen to the AFC show, I just want to very quickly run through the methodology for this. So the way that we're talking about supporting cast and trying to build these rankings, taking into account a few different factors. First one, first bucket, just kind of calling it play caller slash infrastructure. Who is your offensive play caller and just what is the ecosystem for that offense look like?

Is this a group that's consistently maximizing its talent? That point I think is an important one to consider for this show specifically because there are a lot of teams in the NFC, a few at least, that have really, really good personnel, but a new play caller. And I think me and Derek treated that slightly different. You guys will hear what I'm talking about as you listen to the show. Second bucket, pass catchers. Pretty simple, right?

What is your wide receiver in time? head-down group look like you can throw running backs in there a little bit if you have a guy that you feel like is a plus receiver and really adds to the passing game. But that one's pretty simple to understand. And then the last one, offensive line. And with offensive line, I think you can put run game in there as well. Like a team like the Panthers, their offensive line, part of the value is realized when they can kind of click in and run the ball on their terms because of how the offensive line

is built. And even if that, no quarterback isn't directly related to that, the ability to rely on the run game does make a quarterback's life easier in a bunch of different ways. So those are the three main buckets. That is how me and Derek tried to come up with this list. The NFC was really difficult. Like, it's a better group than the AFC is. So we're going to have teams at the back half of this that neither of us feel good about. And I think you guys will enjoy the conversation we had about the top five. There are enough differences on this list where there are some fun little points of tension. I'm excited for you guys to check that out. So let's get to that conversation I had with Derek right now.

All right, Derek, we are back to rank some supporting casts. We did the AFC last week. We're doing the NFC today. The AFC and just the makeup of the AFC is just so different than this group. The teams I have at the back half of this, I don't think have bad infrastructures are supporting cast. I just feel like the group overall top to bottom is so solid that somebody has to be at the back end. That being said, there's a lot of interesting stuff to chew on when it comes to some of the turnover. for a play caller in the middle of this group.

This was difficult. There are going to be some ones here that I already know I'm too low on, but I just don't know what else to do with them. And some others that maybe I'm giving them more the benefit of the doubt than they probably deserve at this stage. So I think I'm probably more excited for this one than the AFC one just because the infrastructures are kind of what lift this conference compared to the AFC where it's a little bit more quarterback-driven.

I think the best way to describe the difference in my experience putting together these two lists is the AFC. there were a couple of teams, like the Colts, for example, where I was like, man, I ended up higher on them than I thought I was going to. And there are like three teams on this list where I was like, man, I ended up lower on them than I thought I was going to. Just by virtue of like, I didn't want to move other teams any further down. I will say with this group, I think it was easier for me to find tears in between the groups.

Where in the AFC, I think it was a little bit more muddled than that. With this group, I feel like I have kind of, I was going to say three distinctive tiers. I'm not sure if that's exactly right. It might be more than that. But I feel like I was better able to kind of group them and then just reshuffle them within the group. In the AFC, I couldn't even do that.

It was like, I think this is just the general arc of where I want to go with this. I kind of feel the same way. Around like eight or nine, I have a cut. I do still think that like everything from like four to like 12-ish is like somewhat muddled, but I do think that there's a cutoff around 8 or 9. I mean, not in terms of like, not within each other. That's why I'm saying like around 8 or 9, I have like a slightly different cutoff.

But even like a team that I have, never mind. I don't want to spoil the list. We'll get to it. All right. Let's just get into it because there's so much to dig into here. I'm fascinated by your answer to this. We're starting at 16. We're going to 1.

I explained the methodology in the intro again. This is a combination and an unscientific way of your play caller slash offensive infrastructure. your ecosystem, the past catchers you're bringing to the table in the offensive line, which I think both the pass catchers in the offensive line, depending on the team, you can include the running backs as part of that. Run game health, what sort of past catchers are you running back, all those considerations. So who did you have at 16? So actually to me, this is the easiest part of the list. I think it's the New York Giants and it's not close. Okay. I had the Giants at 50. So I definitely have them in the back half. This kind of shocked me.

And I think it's just a combination of a lot of questions in the past catchers like two through five, a play caller that we've seen do it twice, but in kind of unique circumstances. And then the offensive line, while I think they're going to be better, the personnel is not very good or mostly question marks. I had the Seahawks at 16. Oh, okay. I had the Seahawks slightly above, but I don't really blame you for having them that low. And that kind of speaks to some of the concerns that I've had for a lot of the season with the Seahawks. I have them slightly higher, though. So here's what I'll say about the tiering.

Again, I think 16 through 13, like those four teams that we're going to talk about, and the Giants are in there and there are a couple other teams in there, I think you can do whatever you want in that tier. But I think with the Seahawks specifically for me, it was just, again, there's a lot of question marks. Like, JSN, I think, is obviously an ascending player. But now we're getting this version of Cooper Cup, who knows what Arroyo is going to give them. MVS is their number three receiver. The offensive wine, again, Cross is a good player.

I think that was kind of the tiebreak of me with the Giants and the Seahawks, is that at least Andrew Thomas is on the Giants. They have won truly elite offensive linemen. And even the guys on the Seahawks are the Giants' offensive line. Other than that, I feel like there are less question marks. The ceiling is very low for a lot of these players, Illuminaur, Van Roten, even a guy like Runyon. But I still feel like there's a little bit more certainty with that group than there is

with the Seahawks group. Neighbors, I think is as intriguing of a number one. one option as JSN is. And I'm not sure the second, third, and fourth receivers for the Giants are any worse than they are for the Seahawks. And Brian Daibble, this is going to be, we'll have this conversation about Daibald, but I think, again, there's a little bit more built in equity for what Daibol has been as a play caller than somebody like Clint Kubiak, who had some nice flashes last year. But I don't want to overrate these two games at the beginning of the season when you look at the body of work overall. I think he's solid. I'm not sure he's a savior. So I think the

offensive line depth, like the number one offensive wine for each of those teams, plus the certainty about the depth with the Giants and the Seahawks. And then again, like the second and third pass catchers, I kind of feel a little bit better about the Giants ones that I do about the Seahawks one. So that's why I landed here. You're definitely selling me that it's at least closer than it I thought it was going to be in my mind. Because like you said, neighbors, if I had to pick one skill player from any of these teams, it's pretty obviously Malik neighbors. And if I had to pick one offensive lineman from any of this team, it's obviously going to be Andrew Thomas, assuming that he's healthy.

I guess I just sold myself on the ceiling for the Seahawks line a little bit better just because like if Zabel hits and then if Lucas stays healthy, like maybe that. And then I also, as far as the past catchers, I actually do feel a bit better about like two through five for for the Seahawks. That they are at least better floor players than some of the ones that I'm going to get from the Giants. Like I do like Darius Slayton, but I like that they have so many options at tight ends. I think Kenneth Walker can be better in a new system.

Like I... Yeah, the running backs are definitely... Yeah, I think the running backs and like the ceiling of Kenneth Walker, I think is good. That's what I think that's a good way to frame it. The ceiling case for the Seahawks is much easier to make. I just think that there is so much projection involved in that, but I just don't know if I feel comfortable making it. And I think the uncertainty is probably what slid them in there for me.

I was shocked when I did it. But again, I just think that there's a little bit more than I can rely on with the Giants, even if it's not exciting. And the dayball part of this, I'm curious where you sit with him right now. Because I think if we did this two years ago in the off season, we would look at him as a play caller and say,

this is like a definitive positive. Like he's lifting that group around him. That what they did in 2022, depending on how this season goes, that's going to be lost to history. Like his Coach of the Year award is going to be like the Matt Nagy Coach of the Year award or some others that we've had. But in reality, it was a really impressive job what they did with that offense.

But I feel like, they're a floor lifter, but the ceiling becomes a question. Like, they were able to do this weird thing with this strange collection of players and get the most out of them. But when they've had to apply these more general ideas to the offense, they've struggled to break through with that. And I honestly think you can apply a similar sort of thinking to what it was like in Buffalo. Like, what they did in Buffalo was extremely impressive, but it was also unique. And so without that sort of muse that that group of players and the quarterback were, I just think that, he's had these really impressive kind of inspired moments with weird collections of players.

But as you try to take it to a more general level, they just haven't been able to quite figure out what they want to be and what they want to be good at. And that's why I struggle with this version of the roster is that they don't have any of the things that he was doing either in Buffalo or what he did in that 2022 season with Daniel Jones, where like obviously with the bills, it was Josh Allen being incredibly talented and a really good runner. That is obviously not the case. And then with the Giants, the one year with Daniel Jones,

it was because the quarterback was a very good mobile threat. And honestly, the health of the run game was decent because Saquan Barclay was still there and he was still incredible. I don't think any of that really exists with this current iteration of it. And that's why I struggle to see them really reaching that high of a ceiling beyond Malik neighbors is like the best wide receiver in football, which like I'll leave the door open for that. But that it's, if that's the only thing I'm betting on here,

I don't feel that good about it. I think if you're trying to talk yourself into it, it's the fact that Darius Slayton was just not in a position where the quarterback was going to find Darius Slayton with any sort of regularity in the old version of this offense. Did you see what he said this week at minicamp? He was talking about the offense and he's like, there are times last year where you run a deep route or you just wouldn't even be a consideration. And now, like if Russ sees the safety drop down, he's going to try to get you the ball. That's the only consideration. Exactly. It's the only consideration.

And so that's a spin where that sounds really good on June 15th. if you're a Giants fan, you're just like, oh, bombs away. And then you realize that's the only thing the offense will be able to do. And I was going to say with any sort of consistency, it's not going to be consistent. It'll just be the only thing the offense is able to do. So I think that there's a chance some of the skill position players get unlocked in a way that they weren't with Daniel Jones. But I'm with you that I think overall I'm still fairly skeptical of what this group can look like even in the best case scenario. Yeah, I completely agree with that.

And I will say, like, maybe I'm being a little bit unfair because, part of my thing here is like it's hard for me to remove the quarterback specifically from this situation because it's going to be so bad. So maybe I bumped them down one or two spots for that, but it's it's overall hard for me to see a very good outcome. I also think that you're a little bit relatively more down on the offensive line than I might be. I don't even think I'm like super high on them. I think that they're probably like the 22nd or 23rd best offensive line in the league if things break right. And I just think that's a tough place to start. Like when you're shooting for slightly below average if you stay healthy.

I just think it's hard to get excited about that. This group, outside of Andrew Thomas, who's obviously an elite player, the rest of the group, it reminds me a little bit of how I felt about the Bears offensive line heading into last season, where you look at it and say, this is acceptable. Like there aren't that many glaring holes. Like you can get by at all these spots. And if that's the starting point, you can only go down from there. And I think that's why it gets a little bit frightening.

If we're trying to contextualize it, the group was so much better, especially when Thomas was playing, that it wasn't 2023, that I feel like it's caused us to get a little bit ahead of ourselves or Giants fans a little bit ahead of themselves when trying to actually figure out what the quality of the group looks like in a vacuum, not just comparing it to the catastrophe it was two years ago. Yeah, I guess for me it's like, I can see the world where they are decent, but to me, if I were to say that every single NFC offensive line was going to get their 75th percent. centile outcome, I still think the Giants probably have the worst offensive line of that bunch. Oh, really? I think so. You think the young players and the projection for the young players, the Seahawks is enough to get them ahead of the Giants for you if you're doing it that way. It's at least like it would probably be like a tie for me.

What about the Cardinals? We'll get to them. They're probably around the same mark because I really do have a lot of questions about them as well, but those are probably the bottom three is the Cardinals, the Seahawks, and the Giants, like assuming everyone gets like a 75th percentile outcome. It's actually you saying that I was kind of like, really, come on now, but then you look at the rest of the offensive lines. And in terms of what we've seen, the Saints are obviously still a question, but there's a lot

of potential talent among that group. So the 75 percentile outcome thing, I actually think is a good way to look at it. And if you're doing it that way, the Giants still probably are in the bottom three. and I would say the Cardinals and the Seahawks are the other two teams in there. All right, so I had the Seahawks at 16. I had the Giants at 15. You had the Giants at 16. Who was your 15th team?

I've really waffled between 14 and 15 here, but I think I actually will put the Seahawks. I did have one other team that I think when I made my initial list would have been at 15, but I think what we've talked about, like, I probably was slightly overrating the ceiling for this group the more we talk about it. I think there's a world. where they're good. Like, I think that world can exist. If a Royal can give them something, if Cooper Cup can have, like, one last, like, all right,

let me tap into the fountain of youth a little bit. I can still be a reliable player. I really like JSN. And again, I think with the offensive line, there's a case to be made that even some of the things that look like holes right now, or were not positions of strength, the last year can be much better in different circumstances.

Like, you look at center and right guard, and the fact that you're bringing the same guys back with those two groups. I think that Ola-O-O-O-Temmy showed enough to deserve this opportunity. And I think you have young guys who were just dropped into an abhorrent situation last year. It's hard to know what they are. And so you hope if you can get like acceptable play from Haynes or whoever wins that job and Olo-O-O-Wittemi, those flashes you saw in a better situation,

he can turn into a reliable player. And then you get the high-end outcomes with the first-round left guard, with the left tackle and with Abe Lucas staying healthy. Like that's there to happen. but at the same time, that's not a guarantee. Like, who knows what we're going to see that? Exactly. That's like seven different dominoes.

And like one of them is an old receiver. And then a lot of it is like young and injured offensive linemen, at least in the case of Lucas. And like, again, I think I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, it's, even if everything goes right, it's hard for me to see what the ceiling is. Like, if we were, if they hit a pretty good outcome for them, like, what is? the highest that they would reasonably be on this list? Like, ninth? Like in the best outcome for them. Yeah. It's probably still not that good. That's kind of, I think, why I struggled with them. I think that's right. And then you say that, and I'm sure some people would scoff at that, but then you're going to hear the teams that we have like ninth and tenth. And they're good. I think it's,

I think it's going to kind of snap into reality, like, why that's not a misguided thing to say. And so I think I'm with you on that. The Kubiak conversation is an interesting one. I think obviously what they looked like over the first couple games last year in New Orleans was excellent. I think it's difficult to extricate what the offense looked like for a vast majority of the season with the fact that they collapsed. Like the amount of injuries and what they were working with. It's really, really difficult to look good in those circumstances. And I still think overall it was better than it probably had any right to be considering what he was working with. But I just don't know if I'm ready to definitively say like this guy is a difference.

maker in a positive way. And I feel really, really good about that. I just don't know if I'm there yet. And also one quirk with like what he was doing with the Saints and what he might be dealing with with the Seahawks is like part of what he was doing really well with the Saints when the receivers were healthy is that he was using their speed very well in terms of Oliving and Rashid Shahid. This Seahawks pass catcher group is slow.

Like the fastest guy is probably MVS and the only thing he's going to do is run straight. And even that I don't think he's like that fast. He's kind of just a bigger body. So I do wonder how he's going to be able to construct the offense Without the same kind of speed that he had in New Orleans Yeah, I think there's a chance that the Seahawks offense is like a solid group Because I do think that we've seen what happens when Darnold can get hot I think the running game could potentially be pretty good if that's just better constructed overall

But I'm with you in that I just don't know even if we're way way off here How high they would even rank in an exercise like this? And I think that's why you feel a little bit comfortable putting them further down the list. All right. So that's the Seahawks and the Giants at 16 and 15 in some order for both of us. Again, this tier is pretty much jumbled together for me. So who did you have at 14? I really thought going in that I was going to have this team higher, but I didn't. It's the Carolina Panthers. I had them at 13. Yeah. I just didn't it feel like based off the vibes from last year, you were going to come into this list and be like, oh, they'll probably be closer to the middle of the

pack. But then you list them out and it's like, okay, I really like the runble. locking offensive line. I think Chuba Hubbard had a really nice season last year and I liked drafting Tet McMillan. But so much else about it kind of gives me question marks. Like, what are we going to get from Xavier League in year two? How much does stealing still have like, is Koka really going to take the step that people want? I don't think any of the tight ends are that exciting. And then even the offensive line, they were kind of good last year by virtue of getting into good down and distances through the run game and like their play action game was decent. As a pure pass protecting unit, they're like probably below average.

Like I don't think the tackles are that good as pure pass protectors. And so that was kind of where I ended up dropping them. And even the guards, exactly. Think about the selling point with both guards. It's more about, you know, pocket sturdiness and run blocking than it is about being pure past protectors. And so I'm with you on that. I think that the, the panthers are kind of in a similar mold to the way that we talk about

the giants where the offensive line was so much better last year that I think it's important to remove yourself from that improvement and just try to. look at them in a vacuum or kind of removed from that level of consideration. So I'm in the same place with the offensive line. I think it's a good group, but it's a better run blocking group than a past blocking group. And the fact that they can lean in and rely on the run game, I do think should be part of this conversation. Like that is a way to protect your quarterback.

But I think that's the best application of the offensive line. Past catchers, I'm right there with you. Like there is a, it's all projection with McMillan at this point. You'd hope that he steps in and he's everything you need him to be. And I actually think one of the more intriguing parts of that is that guy. If he is like your ex-receiver, that is the role he plays. He's the number one option. Then Liget is able to step into a role that's actually more conducive to his skill set.

So I think there's a chance that bringing McMillan makes you better at multiple spots. So I think that it's not hard to make that argument. The last part of this for me is the Canellis part of it. When you were considering him as part of something like this, Were you more or less enthusiastic than you expected to be coming into the rankings? I think I ultimately just ended up treating him as like a neutral factor, to be honest. Like I obviously think that I really liked what he did in Tampa Bay and I liked some of what he was able to do in Carolina. But he didn't move me the way that I think a lot of offensive coordinators a little bit higher on the list.

And maybe that's the difference between me putting them at 14 as opposed to potentially 12. like if I still felt like a really high degree of enthusiasm about it. Maybe I would move him higher. But I think part of it too is like it's tainted by like Liam Cohen doing a significantly better job than him and the job that he had just left. And so I think that's kind of where I ended up. But I think there are a lot of offensive play cars on this group higher than the Panthers on this list that are probably a step up from him. And I think that's part of it. Like you look back at it.

Where do you think the bucks ranked and weighted offensive DVOA in 2020? When Canales was the play car. Like 15th? 18th. Okay. And, you know, there's some personnel thoughts there. They didn't have Graham Barton yet. Cody Mock is in year one.

I think Godeky absolutely took a step last year. But they got significantly better play out of every single member of that offense. And to me, one of the considerations here, as you're thinking holistically about being the architect of an offense, I think what Canales does in the past game is impressive. I've always enjoyed it. I think the past game designs are very good. I think they're exciting. I like watching that passing game last year.

We talk about the Panthers offensive long. and the fact that the run game is where they should really thrive and succeed, they were 15th in rushing DVOA last year. This isn't an elite running team, despite the fact that they probably have the personnel to do it. And if you look at the construction of their run game, and then you look at the huge gains and strides, the Bucks run game made this year,

I think it's worthwhile to point out that it might be a little bit of a blind spot for Canales and for the staff, the majority of which he brought with him to Carolina from Tampa Bay. Yeah, even for the Panthers run game being decent last year, a lot of it is like they paid for it to be good, right? Like it's a lot of first round picks. It's a lot of money and free agency and all that stuff. But like even, yeah, to the point of like contrasting it with Cohen, like Cohen has one of the most diverse run games in the NFL already. Whereas I just, you don't get as much of that from from Canales, even if it was like well coached and like they were running it all fairly well.

And I do think like part of the DVO I think is I think if they had a little bit better. talent at running back that could be higher, but also like they don't this year. The reality is it's the same guys as last year. Who are you talking about? Carolina? Yeah. I mean, I think Shuba Hubbard's a pretty good player. I think he's fine, but he's not.

It's not like a lot of some of the other running backs higher on this list where they are like obvious difference makers to me. I think that's fair. To me, it's more about I think the run game design leaves something to be desired there compared to the running back talent. I think that's my biggest issue with that group. But again, that speaks to Canales and what sort of influence we're talking. about here as we weigh him compared to some of the other play callers.

All right. So I had the Panthers at 13. You had them at 14. And I had a tier of four teams at the bottom. The Panthers are one of them. My team at 14. Again, I think you could have put them at 13. I think you could have probably moved them even back further a little bit.

I had the Saints. Okay. I have them pretty close to this. But I feel bad about it, but there is some part of me that is like mildly optimistic about some of the stuff that they have, to be honest. I honestly think there are a lot of the arguments and a lot of the conversations we had about the Seahawks where you're trying to project a little bit

and you're trying to figure out what the ceiling is. You can make the same arguments for the Saints and I think you could make them more enthusiastically. Like I think it's easier to make them. But at the same time, I'm, there's a lot of this list here for me that's wait and C mode. Like when I haven't seen it in practice at all new play callers, a lot of them, you know, switching out component pieces,

along the offensive line. I'm kind of hesitant here to just write it in as a good thing when we have all this change. That's going to be like a through line for my entire rankings. So even if I think you can make the case for the Saints being better than this,

I just think there's so many unknown components that it's hard for me to feel good about putting them in a different tier of teams. I think that's fair, especially like with the injury stuff, like how many games of Olivia are we even going to get? Shahid is coming up a year where he wasn't very healthy. Camara is, I mean, he was quietly fantastic last year, but he's a running back who's getting a little bit older.

So that always has a little bit of an issue. But I think kind of to your point, like the ceiling for this group, I think is actually really good. Like if Oliva does play most of the season, if Shaheed plays most of the season. And if Camara can do 85%, 90% of what he did last year, that's a pretty dang good top three skill player group. And even Joanne Johnson to tight end is like pretty useful. And then to me, I think I am looking at their offensive. line through like some rose-colored glasses because I really like the Banks pick. I think Fuauga played well and I think him moving back to right tackle is going to be good.

But like, I don't know, man. Put that many big people on an offensive line and I'm probably going to get excited about it. I'm just laughing because this is the most predictable thing of all time. Like I just, you, you like looking at the Saints here and just being like wheels up, baby. Like the full speed ahead. I believe in this is just, it's so not surprising knowing how you felt about Calvin Banks. I just think again, there's a lot of unknown and a lot of. rejection with that offensive line. You have a rookie left tackle. No matter how optimistic you are

about that rookie left tackle, it's still a rookie left tackle. You have a right tackle who's swapping sides, okay? Even if that is his natural position, you're throwing a slight wrench into his development plan there. How's that going to go? You have a failed tackle moving to guard. In theory, he should be better there than he was a tackle, but who knows if that's going to be the case? And the other part of this with the offensive line, the Kellynne Moore aspect of this to me is potentially confusing, depending on how you want to look at Kellanmore. He was just the offensive play call

for a Super Bowl team, but that is the most talented team in the NFL top to bottom talent-wise. We're going to get to them here in a second. And I also think that when you look at what he was in L.A., and then you consider the differences between the Charger stint and the Eagles stint,

the run game was a consistent problem in L.A., a consistent problem. They were awful. Well, who's in Philadelphia overseeing the run game? Jeff Stoughtland's not walking through that door in New Orleans, baby. And so I think even if Kellyn Moore is done a solid job, some of the blind spots we've seen from him in the past,

if that carries over when you don't have Jeff Stoughton and Sequan Berkeley, does that kind of shift how we're seeing Kellan Moore as a play caller? So I think, again, there's just a little bit more uncertainty here than it would seem at first glance, considering how long we've been attuned to Kellanmore in the NFL. That's probably fair. treated a kellamore almost in the same way like I did canales where he's more of a neutral factor to me than anything and I guess for me I was just making the bet that the offensive line will be good and even though it's an even dumber bet than that that the skill players will stay healthy which that to me is I don't know why that's the bet that I've chosen to make here but it is it is the one I'm going with and I think that's a really good way to kind of put a bow on this you treated more as a neutral you treated more as a positive and the O line is a positive I treated more as a neutral the past catcher's a positive as maybe.

More likely positive than the O line, but still a question. And I treated the O line just as one huge big question mark. So I think that's why I have the Saints a little bit lower than you would. How many spots higher did you have them? Like, do we have to go a while before we get to the Saints? No, I had them at 12. So I mean, it's the same. Okay, okay, okay, all right.

So we're not throwing off the flow of the show that badly. No. Okay. So you had the Saints at 12. You had the Panthers at 14. So who is the team you had at 13? this is also what I thought I was going to be higher on, but for me it's the Washington Commanders. This is so incredibly disrespectful.

This roster is not that good, man. All right. Let's go through this. Okay. That's fine. I think, spoiler alert, I heard you and Beller when I walked away before talking about this in my headphones before we started recording. My knee-jerk reaction to this is that your concerns about some of the plateauing and

of the talent in other areas of the roster, mostly the defense, is creeping in to your overall pessimism and skepticism when it comes to what the entire team can be. Because the offensive line is not what it was last year, and the past catching group is the same as it was last year with Debo in there.

And even if Debo's a question, whatever. And what Cliff in that group did? This was like a top four offense by every available metric. Was that all Jaden Daniels? The more I watched them, I kind of do feel that way, truthfully. And like Cliff, Cliff, I do think did a good job.

I want to be clear about that. I am also at the point with Cliff where I'm like, do it again. Like, with him, I want to see it multiple times over before I can really buy into it. And then the offensive line, look, I understand that they brought in Tunsel and that's going to be huge for them. And I really liked Josh Connerly in the draft. And I think that that could be at some point nice to them. I don't know if it will be this year, but I do think he'll be a good player.

But also like Sam Cosmi is, what the hell? are we going to get from Sam Cosmi this year? He tore his ACL like three months ago. And so I think the Tunsell edition is like slightly offset by not having Cosme, at least for parts of this season. And then outside of the Debo thing, they didn't really do a whole lot. Like you're betting on development from Luke McCaffrey who got snaps early last year and then they took them away from him.

Diami Brown is no longer in the building. And then the running back group is like they're fine innings eaters, but they don't really add any sort of explosive element to the offense. And so I really do think the more I look at the roster, the more I watch what they did last year, I just appreciated what Jaden Daniels was able to do. I also appreciate what Jaden Daniels was able to do. But I think we're understating the importance and the effect of some of the infrastructure considerations. Like what this offense does with tempo, what they were able to do lifting the offensive line talent, period. So just I had Washington at So this is going to be the team that we're furthest away on.

And I think you looking at it and saying, hey, Cliff is, I want to see it again. I'm not ready to just say, we can rely on this. It's going to be the exact same thing. I'm fine with that. But I also think that you really have to account for how good he was last year, the only time we've seen him as an offensive coordinator solely. Like the ability of that group to lift every single player on that offensive roster, is there a chance that they get figured out and don't do it again?

Maybe, but I just saw him do it. And there's so many other question marks with a lot of these teams that I think are a much bigger consideration on the play calling side than is Cliff Kingsbury able to do this again. This is a top five offense last year by every available metric. I think the quarterback is good, but I think there are some other things going on here that are elevating this group. I probably am underrating the cliff factor a little bit. I think part of it, and even though Cliff did some other good things in terms of protecting the offensive line, I think some other run game stuff was really good, which that part has always been true of Cliff. His run game has always been very good.

But with the tempo stuff, I feel like once every few years there is a play caller who like has an insane year in part because of tempo. And then we just don't see it again. Like we did this with Chip Kelly a decade ago. It's so funny that you say this because I almost put that in my notes where did they sneak up on everybody? and is this going to be a situation where they fall back to Earth a little bit? It's a really good point to bring up, but I'm just tempted to give him the benefit of the doubt after how last year went. Like that's where I'm landing on this, even if I understand landing on the other side of it.

And I'm kind of, I don't blame you for buying it either because, like, Cliff really did have a very good year as a play caller. I just, there's something about it that I just want to see it again. And this truthfully could be partly like just like a visuals and style type of thing. I just don't love the style of offense that they run, and that honestly might be part of my apprehension here. But I don't know. I really, the more I looked at what their roster was,

I think a lot of it was some good luck in certain ways in terms of situational football. And then Jane Daniels just kind of covering up a lot of the holes for this roster. We're on the exact same page of the past catchers, by the way. Like, this is, we're on the brink of disaster if this doesn't go right. Noah Brown's already hurt. He was already carded off. And then think about what we were talking about with Zach Ertz last year where we were like, man, does he really have anything left?

And now it's another year. And he played fairly well last year. But like it's another year of him getting older. Like I just. Well, you're just discounting the Ben Sennett breakout that's inevitable at this point. He apparently has looked good at a minicamp, whatever that is worth. Okay. For whatever that's worth. The offensive line, I think, is we differ the most on our framing of Cliff and all of this and what sort of influence positively or negatively he is. The offensive line, I think we're also fairly far away on here. The Cosmi point is a really good one to bring it up. And I probably wasn't thinking about enough when I was thinking about this group. I was more looking at the depth chart on paper. So I'm choosing to believe he's going to be back relatively early

because that's the story that I'm telling myself in my head. In part, because I'm actually really excited about the offensive line. I think Brandon Coleman is really talented. I think moving him inside the guard where that power can really take over. I'm excited to see that. Laramie Tunsell was a really good player. We'll see what happens with Cosme. And Connerley, you know, if you, like with the Saints, for example,

like I think the Saints are probably hoping that Kelvin Banks is their best offensive linemen or their second best offensive lineman when this all shakes out. I think Washington is probably hoping that Josh Connerly is like their third or fourth best offensive lineman. And that's why the degree to which they're relying on a rookie tackle as part of the overall calculus, it worries me a little bit less. If that makes sense, it's probably unfair and a little bit hypocritical, but I just think that his spot in the pecking order of the offensive line,

the, wow, we're really, really putting a lot on a rookie. To me, again, matters a little bit less. And also, like, you have a stopgap in Wiley. He played last year. So I just think that they have more optionality. And even that can, the depth of their offensive line, all the backups were the starters last year, and this was a top five offense.

So I think that part of it also matters at least a little bit. No, that actually is a really good point in terms of like, The best outcome for Connerly is in the offensive line health in general is that he's probably your third best guy behind Cosmey playing well again and coming back healthy. And then obviously what you're going to get from Tunsel. Whereas with the Saints, yeah, you do need Banks to kind of be your best guy. But again, this kind of goes back to what I was talking to in terms of like. McCoy is a really good player. I think that's worth acknowledging.

But it's that's, you know, again, there's center. There's a different set of considerations there. But and this also goes back to like what I was talking about in terms of like the visual style of football. All the Saints guys are like 320 plus and all of the guys with. Washington are like not movers. Like, Tunsel to me is not a guy who moves people. Connerly is not a guy who moves people. Cosmy is, and so that's like, I guess, a little bit of a different situation.

And Coleman hopefully will be too. And Coleman hopefully can be. But I guess like it's easier for me to see with the Saints unit as a whole. Here's the last point I'll make about the offensive line. And again, why I think I use this group to push them up a little bit higher than you did. Last year, we had a coaching staff take a group that was probably bottom five in the league by talent. Again, all of their starters are now their backups. and turn them into an above average group, right?

Like, I think decidedly above average. When you try, obviously in pure past situations, they're going to get exposed a little bit, but when you look at the ways they tried to help them, the overall impact was an above average offensive line. And that's very impressive considering the individual talent. Well, now you've got a group that, even with some of the questions, is considerably more talented than last year's group was with the same coaching staff.

So I just think even if you don't, get a 1.7x sort of outcome here, even if it's 1.3, I still feel like this offensive line in a lot of different timelines for this team could be a definitive positive in a way it wasn't even last year when they were playing at a high level. That's a good point. And I'm probably underrating the continuity part of it. Like throw out whatever I think of Cliff in a vacuum, I'm probably underrating the fact that they are getting continuity, whereas teams like New Orleans and Seattle are not getting any of that. There are a ton of teams like that in this group. And I think that's partially why I had Washington ahead of some of the teams that we're going to talk about. Because, I mean,

there's one team that you're going to laugh at where I have them. It's just, I had to do it. But I do think continuity with play caller was important to me as I was considering this list because there were a lot of teams that don't have that. And even if you like a lot of the other parts, there's always part of me that's just like, I remember the Steve Sarkeesian Falcons. You know, like it's fine, but you can take a significant step back when you're moving on from one of these really good play callers and several of these teams are. We're going to get to the middle class of these NFC teams here in a second, but first let's take our first quick break. All right, so quick reset before we keep moving on here. I have the Seahawks at 16, the Giants at 15, the Saints at 14, the Panthers at 13.

Your 16 through 13 was what? I had the New York Giants and then I had the Seattle Seahawks. and then I had the Carolina Panthers, and then at 13 I had the Washington commanders. Okay. Who did you have at 12? That was where I had the Saints. Okay, you had the Saints at 12.

Okay. So who did you have at 11? This was the team where the play caller I at least knew what to do with, and this to me was the Dallas Cowboys. I had the Cowboys at 12. Oh, okay, there we go. If I was, if we were removing coaching from it, And this isn't even to say that Schottenheimer is going to be bad or whatever.

But if I was looking purely at the players on the roster, I might have had them one or two spots higher. There were just a couple of teams that I have right above them where it's like general same tier of talent, but I know that I like the play caller to some degree. And with the Cowboys, I just couldn't quite get there. It's a good way to think about it. I had, the teams I had immediately ahead of them,

I think have just more certainty at play caller. Like the four teams I have immediately ahead of them. And then the teams I have right above that group, even if there's some turnover and play caller, I think there are fewer weaknesses or question marks with the offensive personnel. And you'll get it when we talk about who those teams are. But I think the Cowboys have questions with the pass catchers like three through five.

I like Ferguson, but I think that that's, again, I don't think it's as definitive of a positive it is like with the bucks or the lions or teams like that. And the offensive line, there's still some questions about the offensive line. line, right? Like, it's a highly drafted group. There's a lot of investment in it, but Guyton was really up

and down as a rookie. You have Booker stepping in as a rookie. Terrence Steel has not been the same player since he got hurt. So I think the Schottenheimer question to me is the biggest one about the Cowboys spot in her list like this. But I do think there are enough question marks with the personnel that

that's how you get them at 11 or 12, even with some of the really good players they have on the roster. Yeah, and like, the best outcome for this offensive line is really, really good. Like if Guyton even becomes like a consistent average tackle and then the rest of the guys like Tyler Smith continues to play well, Guper Beebe, I think was actually decent, just got overshadowed by two other really good rookie centers in his class, which is, it doesn't

really happen a lot. If Tyler Booker is solid, if Terrence Steele plays a little bit better again, like this offensive line could be really good. But literally all those guys outside of probably Tyler Smith have some degree of question markets to how good they're actually going to be in 2025. When you say really good, like what do you think is the ceiling for this group if we're playing that 75% outcome game? Like, honestly, like top eight unit?

Like, I think they could be really, really damn good if those guys hit like what their ceilings could be. Obviously, you need every domino to fall there and that's kind of the tricky part I'm opposed to needing one or two, but I think relatively I'm a little bit more down on them than that. I just don't see. Which players specifically? I think it's

I do think with Guyton you're asking for a lot because he was very up and down like the best moments are good but I think I just really like what I saw from BB Yeah yeah but I was gonna say I think the ceiling for the interior It was just lower that it's been in years past But I guess that depends on how you think about Booker

And how you conceive of him like He can be a really good player So I don't even know if that's a fair characterization I just think that Expecting more from Terran Steele at this point is probably a tough ask. I know he was banged up last year, even independent of their recovery,

but I don't know. I just think that a path to a top eight offensive line to me is a little bit slimmer than you probably do. But again, the reason I have in the 12 is mostly based on the play caller. Like, I have no doubt that guys like him and that the mood and the vibe at OTAs has been fun in Dallas.

Like, he's that kind of guy. But these culture setting CEO guys, for them to work, you need the right offensive play caller as part of all of this, like Dan Campbell, Jonathan Gannon, like Nick Siriani even, we've seen what these teams look like in part because they have the right guy calling plays. Well, Schottenheimer's the guy calling plays. And the last time he did this, like those Seattle offenses were pretty good.

But I just don't see him as like a definitive positive in this role. And that means I just don't know if the infrastructure considerations are overcoming some of the questions we have about the personnel. I think that's fair. And especially to like, they were a hard team to rank because I think I'm probably slightly lower on the pickings thing than a lot of other people. And then I still really thought they needed to add running back talent. And they didn't do a whole lot that inspired me in terms of running back talent this offseason, which is probably the thing. Yeah. Seems like they're pretty far away from inspiration.

I mean, yeah, when I have them at like 12 or something, they're pretty far from that. But I don't know. They're just. I just don't. The idea of framing Javante Williams is that. doesn't inspire me, I think is a generous framing. Yeah, like at this stage and then what, when did they draft the running back? It was like the fifth round or something.

Like, I just, they had one of the weakest running games in the league last year. I wanted them to do something. Yeah, I just, we'll see what happens. I like the Clayton Adams higher as the offensive coordinator. I'm curious what that does to the run game and to the offensive line specifically. Obviously, he was the offensive line coach in Arizona where, again, we just said it. We'll talk about the cardals, I assume pretty soon here. The offensive line talent is not very good on that team

And they've had a really good running game Multiple years in a row And like a top 10ish offense multiple years in a row And I think the coaching and design Along the offensive line is a huge part of that So I think getting him in the building with the staff Is that's a win But I still just have enough questions about

Where Shottie is going to rank Among all these NFC play callers For me to move the Cowboys any higher than this And I guess that's part of it for me too was like, what if we get the Adams multiplier that we got in Arizona, but with the talent that Dallas has? Like, I just, I can see it. I can see it. I'm not ruling it out. It's again, just a question. We haven't seen it. The last time he was an offensive play caller was like in 2020 with the Seahawks, right? And those offenses were good, but it's also like a very specific. Yes. And that's the best

ball. Russ was playing in his entire career was that like 2018 to 2020 stretch. He was playing really, really good football in that stretch. And so we'll see. Like I just, the guy hasn't been a playcaller in five years. Like he's bounced around in these different roles. Like I'm not saying that's all his fault, but I also think that there's probably a reason he wasn't super in demand as teams were doing everything they could. Teams were like shanking loved ones to find the next best play next great play caller.

And he didn't get another chance after that Seahawks run. Yeah. In a league where everyone is trying to hire any offensive, anyone who's called offensive plays at any level. to come run their offense. The fact that he hasn't stuck is a little bit concerning. Yes. And again, maybe that's, he's a little bit older.

He wasn't the hot shot guy. Maybe that's part of it. And I'm willing to admit that. But I think there's enough of a question about what it's going to be that I'm comfortable putting them at 12. So you had the Cowboys at 11. I had the Cowboys at 12. Who did you have at 10?

That is the team we were just talking about a little bit, the Arizona Cardinals. I had the Cardinals at 11. Okay. So same neighborhood here. Yes. They were another team where, like I said at the top of the. the show where there were teams I thought I was going to have higher. And then you just list out the other teams in the conference and you're like, huh, I guess I

really can't foot them much, much higher than 10. And a lot of it is like what we just talked about where I know the skill players. I think they have plenty of guys. I think Marvin Harrison Jr. is going to take a step. Michael Wilson solid. Trey McBride's awesome. Petzing, I think has been a good, above average offensive play caller. It's just, I look at the offensive line.

And it's like, how high can I really put this group? Yeah. I think that's a good way to look at. at it. McBride is already like a top three to four past catching tight end. I expect Marvin Harrison Jr. to take a step. I still think they need one more pass catcher. I think that them not going out and getting one this off season was probably a mistake. I feel the same way about the offensive line. The offensive line is a group propped up by scheme. And it should be better personnel wise this year if they can stay healthy. Jonah Williams didn't play last year. You know, Will Hernandez

was hurt for a good chunk of the year. But they're really reliant on guys like Isaiah Adams. I think Paris Johnson needs to keep developing. So the offensive line personnel is a big question. the past catchers are fine. A lot of this is going to depend on where you land with petting. And we've talked a lot about him this offseason, whether it's directly or indirectly, we're having the Marvin Harrison Jr. Conversation, et cetera. I think they do a lot of really good stuff.

I think the run game and the play action game are both excellent. But there is a reason that Kyler was below average when you look at like EPA per dropback on non-play action dropbacks. I think that the passing game, the pure passing game, there's still a little bit left to be desired there. And I think some of the rigidity with how they, they've used some of the personnel, Marvin Harrison, Jr. being the best example of that, is really an indication to me of, like, where the ceiling might be with this offensive staff,

where they do a really good job. There's some interesting ideas here. But are there going to be a couple things that keep him and keep them from really breaking into that top, top tier that they have not been able to access quite yet? That's why, that's on top of the offensive line stuff. Also why I couldn't put them that much higher than like 10th or so is because I, I do, like some of the stuff that petting has done, but especially in the passing game. And I think that one's a tough one to try to dissect too, because it does go back to the past catchers a little bit. Like, I think part of some of their weird deployment of players and not quite having the full dropback game that they wanted to have last year is in part because their only field stretcher was

Marvin Harrison Jr. who is also their best one-on-one guy. So like you can't use him for both in the same play. And I do think that that hurt them. Like this is a team that would have been infitted from signing like Diami Brown to just like run fast down the field so that Marvin Harrison Jr. doesn't have to do it. But they didn't do that. And like you said, they didn't add much on the offensive line either. Like this is, they're just betting that even more continuity. And a step from Marvin Harrison Jr. is going to take them from like kind of fun, kind of good, kind of volatile to an actual top 10 unit. And I just, it feels like they're asking for a lot to go right there. Do you think that can happen though? I think there is still a chance that Marvin Harrison

Jr. can be that kind of difference maker. I'm just probably a little bit less optimistic than I might have been a year ago. And I still think he's good. I just don't know if the ceiling is actually that high for him. Yeah, this is a team that really could have used the Matt Harmon term, the sacrificial X. Like that's just what he is within the offense. Yes. This team, almost more than any other, needs a true sacrifice at the ex-receiver in order for

Marvin Harrison Jr. to be the player you need him to be. And Michael Wilson just isn't really that guy. like he's just not like a vertical player. He's like a slot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, I like him.

I just think that there are a lot of guys in that past catching group that I think that there is some meat on the bone left for all of them. I just don't know if we're going to see it based on the current construction of that room. Yeah. And even the running backs like, is Trey Benson going to be better this year? I don't know. Like I like him, but he was also a guy who coming out of college was incredibly volatile in terms of the way that he ran. Like, I just, there's more here that I just wanted them to add something else to make me feel like they were taking a step. And they really didn't.

And I get that in terms of the holistic view of the team, right? Like, the defense was terrible. They needed to invest resources there. But the fact that there's nothing new on this side of the ball really is a little bit frustrating. All right. So I had the Cardinals at 11. You had the Cardinals at 10. So who is one spot ahead of the Cardinals for you at your number 9 team?

This is the last team in the tier of teams I didn't quite know. what to do with, and this to me is the Chicago Bears. I'm so glad you did this because I thought I was going to be hilariously low on them. I have them at 10, one spot ahead of Cardinals. How high did you think I was going to have them? I don't know. Top five? No, no, no, no.

Yeah, I think the way that I see it, I had, I kind of had the Cardinals and the Cowboys is like their own little like mini group, like after that first four teams. And then my 10 through six, I think you could make a compelling argument. argument to do it in almost any order. And so I just kind of expected you to have the bears closer to the top of that group based on Ben Johnson and some of the other things. And so the fact that you had them at the bottom of that group makes me feel a little bit better, but also a little bit worse.

Because I thought that I was being purposely low on them to protect myself. And the fact that you don't have to do that and are still this low on them, maybe that should worry me a little bit more than it is right now. Yeah, I just, there is a lot. I think there'll be a good offense. I do think that they'll be better than last year. But for as much as I like Ben Johnson as a play called. I hope so.

With as much as they invested, it would be really hard not to. But here's why I think I ended up with them at nine instead of like six or seven. I think the offensive line can work in theory. But all of these guys along the interior outside of Tuny, so the other two and Jonah Jackson and Dalman were hurt last year. And Jackson has been hurt a lot. And even the tackles in the best case scenario are probably an. average duo. Like in the best case scenario, they're probably average. And then when I look at

Ben Johnson, I think he's a phenomenal play caller, but he is also a guy who's going from pure play caller under a very, very good head coach in Dan Campbell to now he's the head guy. And I just, I still think that he'll be a positive, obviously, but is he only going to be an eight out of 10 for you instead of a 10 out of 10? That's kind of where I'm wearing. And also I still don't like the running back room. It's a really good thing to bring up. I think that that's probably why they're a little bit lower for me, even independent of whatever reverse drinks I'm trying to pull. You just don't know. And I think with Ben Johnson compared to a lot of other play callers that get head coaching

jobs, and we've talked about this in the context of why it was a hire I'm excited about, very rarely do you get, very rarely is probably strong because there aren't that many. It's not like I have a scientifically significant, I don't have a statistically significant sample of coaches to say this, say very rarely. Anecdotally, I think a lot of the guys who are the. archetype of offensive coordinator the Ben Johnson is. Multi-year top-tenish offensive coordinator over two to three seasons without an elite quarterback, those guys typically, when they've gone from offensive coordinator to play calling

head coach, have been able to carry over success. The best two examples of that are McVeigh and Shanahan, right? And who knows? There's a bunch of different reasons those guys have been successful independent of play-calling talent. So I think I'd bet on Ben Johnson still being really good, but that eight, seven and a half compared to a 10 out of 10, I think that's a good way to think about it.

So that's part of the reason that I think I'm a little bit lower. The past catchers should be good. I just don't know what else to do with this. That's what we said last year. Even if there are concerns about, I still think I have zero faith and had zero faith, especially by week two, that that coaching staff knew how to deploy the past catchers correctly.

I have more faith in this group being able to do that. The talent is there. the offensive line I think that this is another one of those spots where you look at the individual talent and like Darnall Wright and Braxton Jones or whoever wins a left tackle job and you think about them in the context

of what the offense was last year or the year before and I think it's really important to consider how much better the environment is going to be for each and every offensive linemen on this offense compared to last year. It's the same sort of thing we're talking about with like the Seahawks. Those guys will look better

by virtue of playing in a different system then they looked in a system where they were completely left out to dry. So I'm still keeping a candle lit for darnel right as part of all of this because I think that he's been given a really shitty situation essentially from the day he walked into the NFL. That is also fair. And Wright was a really talented guy coming out of college. So I do think environment is probably going to help him.

That might be the part of this that I am underrating the most is like it just feels like there's so much change up front with them basically having three new interior players, which they needed, by the way, and then also a new system. I guess for whatever reason I'm having a hard time fully visualizing a good, like not a good outcome. I think it'll be good,

but like the best outcome. But maybe I'm just not putting enough into that. Because I do think the best outcome there is insane. Yes. And I think that's the difference between a team like this and the teams at 12 and 13, where we can admit,

all right, we might be wrong about this, but even if we're wrong about the Panthers, they end up at nine. If we're wrong about the bears, like there's a world where we do this exercise again next year and their third. Like that's not crazy. I think that they probably have among all of these teams the biggest potential variance

because of you switching out the 60% of the offensive line and you're going from two extremely different polls when it comes to the quality of the play caller if Ben Johnson is bringing the guy he was in Detroit with him. Yeah, that's a good point. is like for some of these other teams it's like I don't know even the best outcome is not that good but the bears like you said they

short of probably the top two maybe three teams on here they could be the next best one if everything goes well and like there's reason to believe that even outside of the offensive line right like I think Roma Dunezay is better than he showed last year yes I really liked Loveland coming out of college Luther Burden I didn't love but if he's like the

fourth or fifth most important skill player on the team given his skill set I think that could make sense with Ben Johnson like there is, and then like even next year, like, if they add a running back that I like, like there's, so there's a lot to this that maybe I do have them too low. But I think there was just some other parts of the other teams that I liked for whatever. I mean, we can get into this. I think that a lot of the other teams just have fewer questions.

So even if you're going to get excited about the best case scenario for the Bears, I just think that the median set of outcomes for most of these teams is just a little bit easier to believe in than it is with the Bears. And that's why I had them a little bit lower. that's the best that's the like the last thing i'll say is like median outcome that's probably why i ranked them where i did but if we were ranking best potential outcome for every team they'd probably be top five all right so you had the bears at nine who did you have at eight i had the atlanta falcons our list are the fain same i had Atlanta at nine i had Atlanta one spot ahead of the bears

you got to be kidding me and this compared to the the bears is because i just like you said i have fewer were questions. Like, they're just, the offensive line is mostly the same and they're not a great unit, but I think that they can be good. And I think even though they're having to replace Dahlman, they already played without him last year and they were still a fairly effective run game. The skill players are awesome. Like Drake London is a true wide receiver one. Bejohn Robinson is one of the best running backs in the league and he's a pretty good third downback. And then Donald Mooney was like shockingly pretty good for them last year. And so I like some of the skill players. It's a little thinner than I think you're making it out to be. Like their skill

position players are awesome to me is a little bit. It's like one toe over the line. I think it's a good group. I think wide receiver like three is a little thin. But other than that, like if these guys stay healthy, I think it's a really, really good group. I also, I like it. I still, I still think Kyle Pitts is better than people realize that he is. That's the biggest part of this is like given what's happened with Pitts the last couple of years, I just think that's probably where the sticking point is. It's about whether you choose to believe. And I honestly think Mooney was really good last year. So the depth of it to me, I guess, is just a little bit. That's where I probably start having a couple questions in raising an eyebrow, but I do like it overall. And they're funny because

compared to the bears, I think they have a lower ceiling probably. But I also like, their floor actually is a little bit scared. Oh, this is, maybe I should have put the bears ahead of them. Now that I'm like kind of thinking this through. I think the only reason I didn't, or not the only reason, but the biggest reason is even though I think Ben Johnson's a great play caller, he's going from play caller to head coach, where Zach Robinson is staying in the position, and he was really good last year. It's exactly place I landed.

It's exact place I landed. We're taking the same thought process to this. Even if I think Ben Johnson is a better play caller than Zach Robinson has shown to be one, Zach Robinson is doing the same job he did well last year. And I think that's why I was... With all the same ingredients. Yes, and the players are good. Like, that's not the only consideration. So I think that's, you perfectly articulated like why I had them stacked in that exact order.

So we had the Falcons one spot ahead of the Bears, both of us. I had Washington at 8. So that's where we're a little bit different here. You had the Falcons at 8, correct? I did. Yeah. Okay. And then so who did you have at 7?

This was probably in the top half the toughest team for me to rank, but it's the San Francisco 49ers. Wow. Yeah. Wow. You're assuming you had them like three, four spots higher? Yes. I get this, by the way. I totally get this.

And this is why they were tricky because the ceiling for them is incredible. They have Kyle Shanahan, who is an obvious, obvious special difference maker. Brandon Ayuk at his best is awesome. Kittle might still be the best tight end in the league. Christian McCaffrey, if he comes back healthy, awesome. There are just so many question marks about all the skill players. Kittles getting older. What are we going to get from Iyuk?

Ricky Pearsall has already hurt. Christian McCaffrey. Is he going to be good again? I don't know. And then to me, the offensive line out of Trent Williams, hold on to your hats, man. I mean, Dominic Pony is good at right guard, but the other three spots, I don't know, dude.

I can't disagree with any of that, by the way. The first line in my notes, I have the Niners at three. Okay. Okay. The first line in my notes is, even with all the questions about CMC, Iuke, Pearsall, and the offensive line, this ranking is a bet on Kyle Shanahan.

Yeah, I mean, other than the eight things that might go wrong, you know. I've, I'm just, I'm, I'd rather be a year late than a year early when it comes to like projecting his demise as truly like one of the special play callers and offensive architects we have seen in the NFL since I started paying attention to the NFL. I understand why this could be wrong and I understand why this could be spinning it way too optimistically. I can live with that. I've seen him do it too many times. And even if, and we said this when we're talking about the Niners on the lingering question show, even if we do feel like last year was the first year in a while where they weren't playing on the front foot all the time and dictating how games were going to go,

that's generally been how it's gone for the last like five to six years. And I believe that last year might have been the outlier compared to the last five or six years before that. So I think that's what I'm choosing to believe, even with all of the, those personnel questions that you just mentioned. And I get that because there was a version of this list that I had them at four. So I was at one point, like pretty close to in Lockstep with you. I just, I think part of it is I really, like I said, other than, and even with Trent Williams being good, I mean, he's getting older, man.

Like I think there's just a lot of concerns that like when I look at that offensive line chart, I get the ick. And then even with Kyle Shanahan, even though I think he's fantastic and was still really good last year, I do think with the style of play that. Pretty kind of puts on the team in terms of being more of a dropback guy, like puts Kyle slightly out of his element, which means you're instead of like a hundred percentile play call or a 95th. But that to me was kind of the margins for like three through seven is like very, very small

stuff like that. You know the Niners were a top 10 offense last year, right? Yeah. And I think they probably can be again. I just also think every other unit ahead of them can also be a top 10 offense. But they were a top 10 offense last year in the season from. hell when everything went wrong. But everything is already going wrong again.

Like I don't know how healthy he's going to be. Piercell has already hurt. And like CMC, we don't know. Trent Williams is going to be like 40. That's probably a little bit mean. Like, I don't think he's quite 40. But like, I don't know, man. There's just, I think they need more dominoes to fall than they probably ever have.

This is one of those scenarios where there's a chance this is true. where last year it was like the first bit of a drop off this year. We kind of see them, even if it's the same tier that they were in last year. It's just not quite what we come to expect from them. So almost like when there's a band that you love and like the most recent couple albums aren't very good, but you still are paying to go see them live. It's just like I'm choosing to live in like five or six years ago when this is the greatest thing I'd ever seen or heard.

There's a chance we're entering that period of the Niners where this is like the autumn of this version of the Niners and the materials not quite as good as it. it was, but I'm still going to be as much of a hardcore fan as I've been in years past. I really don't blame you because Kyle, Kyle Shanhan really is one of the best that I've ever seen. I just, this was one for whatever reason, even because if again, if I'm just listening play callers, I mean, he's, he's one or two. It's just the roster really gave me a lot of ick. Yes. And I think that's totally fair. I just, I'm, and again, I'm definitely overrating his role in all of this and the multiplier.

Like if the ratio of like how I'm weighing all this stuff and the Irish is not the same as it is for some of these other teams. And I admit that. But and like I get it because like we've seen Kyle Shanahan put together literally like league average offense with like C.J. Bethardt at quarterback and like where they were throwing passes to just like whoever. And so here's in order to kind of make this a little bit easier like actually make a real case as to why I had them that high.

I understand the questions about some of the players on the offense, but if I, U comes back, like halfway through the year, let's say, you still have Kittle, let's say CMC is healthy this year. Let's say he's just CMC over the last few years. The Packers don't have elite offensive players, right? So the fact, even if there are more holes with the Niners, those holes have kind of always been there. Like, the offensive line wasn't good two years ago

when they were the best offense in the league. And so I think that trying to look, at things breaking right with the stars. Trent Williams still playing at this level. CMC being healthy. Are you coming back midway through the year and being a good version of himself? Kiddle still being there. All of that combined with Shanahan,

that's why I think you can make the case over a team like Green Bay, who I have a little bit below them, because I still think that those elite players, even with imperfections on the offense before, combined with Kyle Shanahan, weren't just the best offense in the league. There were stretches where they were one of the best offenses we'd ever seen.

And I don't think enough of that has changed if guys stay healthy for me to completely stop believing in the ceiling for them. I think you're probably right. And I'm going to feel the most bad about this ranking when we get to December. I think there's a better chance I'm wrong and just, I'd rather just be wrong. I'd rather just go down with the ship. I shouldn't be fading that Kyle Shanahan bounce back. But I don't know.

All right. We're going to take one more quick break and then run through the rest of these teams. All right. So you have the Niners at seven. I had the Bucks at seven. Wow. Really? Yes.

Is it just the play caller? That's it. Okay. That's it. I mean, there's a lot of really good play callers above them. And I think that's, that is the thing here.

And so the only team that's ahead of the Bucks on this list. So the Bucks and the Lions, I have it at 7 and 6, just to put it out there. I think you can say, almost all the same things for the Bucks and the Lions. And so this little tier I have where it's like they're just outside of the top five, the only team ahead of the Bucks and Lions

on the exact same line that doesn't have an elite play caller ahead of them is the Eagles who have the best players. So that's why the seven seems low. Right? I mean, that's a team I expected to be much higher when we did this. But you're talking about bumping them ahead of Mowafluer, Shanahan, Sean McVeigh,

and, or, like, I just, I wasn't able to do that. I love the players that they have. Like, top to bottom, I think that you can make an argument that the actual talent is, I don't know, second or third on this list, like right in that conversation. But I think, again, they're just a slight tier behind all these other teams because we've never seen Josh Grisard do this. Like, who the hell knows? And this gets back to the Canales thing.

Canales was good enough to get a head coaching job after being the Bucks offensive coordinator. They finished 18th in offensive DVOA with a lot of the same players. So I just don't, I don't want to understate what Liam Cohen did last year even if we do really, really like the players. I,

maybe I am like underrating Liam Cohen. And I think he was obviously fantastic, but I just look at this roster. And like, even if Grisard is an average place, caller. This is a top 10 offense. Easily. Easily. I think the floor is so high. I just don't agree with that.

How many offensive lines in the NFL do you think are for sure better than them? I think but okay. I think it's one. Okay. So this is really, you only think it's one. I think it's the Eagles. Yeah, the Ragnow part of it is actually a consideration. Exactly. So I think the best argument you can make here is that they're bringing back the offensive line

who is also the run game coordinator. and if they can tap into a similar sort of run game as they did last year, I feel a lot better about the weaponization of that offensive line talent because that would be my first response is that when you think of that offensive line because of the way they played last year, in part because of every single one of those guys was maximized. Does that happen again? Is that change the way that you consider the offensive line? But the fact that they have the offensive line coach back

and you hopefully can tap into some of the same stuff, that I tend to agree with. But even beyond. I hear what you're saying, but it's not that I feel I'm even down on them relatively. I really, really like this group. I just couldn't put them ahead of any of the teams I had ahead of them. And even the Lions who are one spot ahead of them on this list,

they're right there. Like I get to flip six and seven easily. But with both the Lions and the Bucks, it was just because all these other teams have continuity at the most important spots. And this team, these teams do not. We just don't know. I think that's fair.

Like I have them above some really, really good play callers that I like, which makes me feel a little bit uneasy. I just think that like talent wise, they have to me, assuming everybody's healthy or like relatively healthy, they're going to be a top five offensive line again. And they have like six skill players I think are legitimately useful, if not very good. And that to me is just like,

it's hard for me to imagine how that would not be a top 10 offense again. I don't even disagree. with that. I think there's probably more outcomes where they're not a top 10 offense than you do. I wouldn't be surprised that they landed there again. I just, again, it's the question mark with the guy now running the show. Like, I just feel like when you do that, when you're swapping out a guy who was operating at a super, super high level for somebody we've never seen do this, it's hard for me to put a team like that ahead of the Eagles. Like I just, or even like the Packers, I just, I can't, I can't do that.

I did, there's way too much uncertainty there for me. I did not put them ahead of the Eagles, to be clear. But I did put them ahead of the Packers. But I just think that we're getting into like really, really high-end territory here. And again, like, you have them ahead of the Niners, and I get that. I just feel like I'm making bets on the guys I've seen do it for a really, really long time, even if I think there are some holes in the offensive personnel. Even, I think a team like the Eagles is a really good example here.

the Eagles had the same players outside of Sequin, who obviously was very good, but they had the same players two years ago as they had last year. And I don't think Kelomora is like some earth-shattering play caller, but the difference between objectively bad offensive play calling and even average offensive play calling was enough to take this from an extremely frustrating group to a team that won the Super Bowl. Like even if you have all the best players, if you don't have the right person in charge of all of this,

you can feel the gaps. players don't feel as good. Like you're just not maximizing that talent. And so I think that there's absolutely a world where that happens for the bucks and for the lions. But I just don't know. And that's why I have just a tiny bit of hesitation with both of them. No, that's a really good point, especially with like the 2023 Eagles.

I'm probably looking past the uncertainty of play caller here. I just, it's literally the opposite of how I feel about the Niners, where I look at the Niners play caller. and I'm like, I know that he's the best, but I look at the rest of the roster and I feel an ick. And then with the Buccaneers, I look at the roster and I'm like, they're so good that almost no matter what I think of the play caller, I think they'll be pretty good.

And again, I don't disagree with that. That's probably a little bit scary. I probably shouldn't be doing that. I'm probably doing too much the other way. I'm probably overstating it too much the other way where I'm not weighing the talent enough. I just think that at times it's easy to conflate well-maximized talent or correctly maximized talent

with the talent level on its own, independent of the coach. I think that that's at times easy to do. And I think in our minds, we're thinking of this 2024 Bucks team that was just a fireworks show. Like the most fun offense, I think, just structurally, maybe to watch in the entire NFL. And that in my view is partially why the players felt so good. And so if you change those components a little bit, does the talent feel as overwhelming? It might. and I might look like a moron,

but I just have enough of a kernel of doubt that it pushes them down a little bit for me on this list. I get that. And too, what's funny about them compared to the 49ers, and I think we might have done this on the AFC show too. I think you're a little bit more indexing into the ceiling of what these teams could be, and I'm a little bit more interested in what the floor might be.

And obviously with the Niners, that's complicated because the floor is very high with Kyle, but I think, like, talent-wise, the floor for the bucks is very high, and that's why I put them higher. Yeah, I get that. I get that. Okay. So you had the,

I had the bucks at seven. You had the bucks where? I had them at three. I get them really high. Wow. So we had, we had our, the Niners and the Bucks flipped.

Yeah. That's exactly, that's essentially what happened. We had the nineers and the bucks flipped. Which is so telling. It is, it is so telling that we did that. All right.

So you had the Bucks, you had the Niners at seven. I had the Bucs at seven. Who did you have at six? That's where I put to Detroit Lions, which, I also had the Lions at six. Okay.

Did you have them higher at any point in this list? And then you kind of walked them down? I don't think so. I think again, it just, I think there are, I probably had them slot in right around here. I honestly think there's probably a version of this list where I had Washington and the Falcons higher than the Bucks and the Lions simply because of the questions about the play caller. And eventually I was like, no, the players are too good. We're not doing this.

So I eventually slotted those two teams in ahead of Washington and the Falcons. but I kind of bucketed them together similarly, where Washington and the Falcons were kind of in their own little group and the lions and the bucks were kind of in their own little group. I think that honestly, where I'm willing to kind of acquiesce here is that I think your argument sold me that I might want to have the bucks ahead of the lions, even if I kind of consider them to be on the same tier. That's why I had them ahead because here's, I feel like the ceiling for the

Lions is still really good. Like maybe Morton is really good. Maybe some of the interior stuff works out. I just feel like the floor for this could fall out in a way that is like they could be like more of an average-ish offense than anything because I think so much of what they did the last couple of years is being a run first team. But if Ben Johnson is out the door and a lot of your other pieces along the interior are out the door, that scares me a little bit.

And then I, Amon Ross St. Brown is a really, really good receiver. I think Sam LaPorte is like a little bit overrated is probably why I have them a little bit lower. So I think I just, if the offensive line's not going to be as good, they're going to lose Ben Johnson. I don't know. The skill player group just didn't look as sexy as I thought it was going to. You've sold me 100% by the way. I literally just copy and paste it. I have the lines of seven and the bucks and six.

You completely sold me because I think you're right. I think that if the question is about, and there are a lot of other similarities, the offensive line coach or run game coordinator is back for the lines. they kept Hank Frey, so you hope some of that stays the same. So there are more parallels here than it might seem when you just kind of stack it up and look at the tail of the tape. And I do think that the continuity along the offensive line for the bucks and the high-end receiving talent,

I think I probably put the bucks ahead of the lions. You're switching out three spots on the interior. Like three spots could be worse this year for the lions than they were last year. And that's the thing is that compared to the books, they need Christian mahogany to do what Cody Malk did. And they need Tate Ratlidge to be Graham Barton. Well, with the Bucks, I know that Graham Barton is good. And I know that Cody Malk has already taken the step.

So it's like, I think that degree of certainty is ultimately what moved me. Yeah, the Ragnat thing is big. And I think that the Ragnat part of it is now you're moving around a bunch of different pieces. You know, now it's like you're replacing two guards and a center. And I just think that there's a lot. There are a lot of questions among that group that there just haven't been in years past. And I think it's easier to feel good about where the Bucks are. So I'm with you.

That being said, it's still a really, really good bucks. It's still a really good group of players. But it's just not quite at the level it's been over the last couple years from a talent perspective. And you add in the uncertainty with the play caller. Like, I think Johnny Morton could be good. I think it's worth betting on that building

and what they've been able to do with their coaching staff over the last few years. But it's a question. You can't frame it any other way. That's the thing. They will still be good, but I won't be shocked if instead of the fourth best offense, they are like the 11th best offense and they have three or four stinkers next year.

Like that's kind of where I'm at with what they are. All right. So you had the Lions at six. I had the Lions at seven and the Bucks at six. So who is the team you have at five? I'm on the Green Bay Packers here. I had the Packers before. This is I wanted to put them at four.

I really, really did. I just think the team I have ahead of them has a slightly higher ceiling. But for me, when I looked at the Packers, they were the perfect team that actually captures how I've ranked a lot of these teams. I think the floor is so high. Like, Matt Lafleur is an awesome play caller.

I think the offensive line, even if they don't have stars, I think is structurally put well together. And I think with the inclusion of Aaron Banks now, like, they at least have quality starters pretty much across the board. And then even the skill players, there is again no star, but I think the depth is really good. I think Tucker Kraft is a really, really good tight end. And even the run game, I think is going to probably be good again next year. So I just, they still, unless Matthew Golden is awesome, I still don't know what the ceiling is,

but the floor is just like, I feel incredible about it. I think I was conceiving of it in a similar way. So I had the Packers at four, and we'll talk about the team I have at five that's one spot below them. I think you could probably guess based on what we were just talking about, and how this entire list is gone. The Packers, every single year that Matt LaFleur has been there, have finished in the top 10 and weighted offensive DVOA.

Every year. Even in 2022, when we were like freaking out about Rogers and how he was playing, they finished ninth that year. So that's the floor you're talking about. So the floor at this point has been top 10 offense. And I think you could easily make a case that the talent on that offense now is better than it's been over the last couple years. So Jordan Morgan coming back, you sign Aaron Banks, you move Jenkins to center. Walker has been fine. We'll see what happens with Belden.

But I think the depth there at left tackle after drafting Belton in the second round. you feel good about so many permutations over that offensive line. Zach Tom is a really good player. So the talent along the offensive line might be the best that it's been in the last like three or four years if some of the young guys take a stuff forward. I believe even if Matthew Golden isn't a star, I think the most appealing part of the Matthew Golden pick is that it slots in everybody else in the way that they should be slotted in.

It's the skill set they were missing in that group. And that's why even if his ceiling, he's a rookie who, he's a rookie who, knows, I think the ceiling of the group gets lifted because of what his skill set does to everybody else. So I think the way I feel about the offensive line and the past catchers is kind of similar. And then you combine that with an offensive plate caller and staff whose worst showing has been ninth in the past five years. So that's why I felt as good as I did about putting them at four even above a team,

like the one that I have ranked just behind them that we'll get to in a second. That's actually a really good point about Golden. actually have to be a star. He just has to make sure everyone else is going to fit into the right role. And then at that point, I trust Matt Lafleur to do everything that he needs to do once everybody is able to slot into their right spot. So if they can get any degree more explosive next year, that would be, yeah, they're going to be good. My next team is the Rams and I almost now feel like I should have put the Packers ahead of them, the more I think about it. Oh, wow. So, okay, so does that mean you had the Eagles at one or two? I have them at two. Okay. So I have the Eagles at

five. Okay. Is this also a play caller thing? 100%. Like what else could it be? So here's the thing with the Eagles. I know that what we just talked about with 2023 and them obviously having a really, really bad play caller, I still feel like for the most part, like play caller is like

kind of immaterial to the Eagles. I don't disagree with that. But that's why they're at five consider it with all the with the questions about the play caller compared to some of the other teams that are lower than that on this list. And I think if I'm team. If I'm tiering it, and this is the way that I did it, the Bucks and the Lions, a lot of the same sorts of conversations, a lot of talent, new play caller,

I think the Bucks and the Lions are in a tier down from the teams I had in the top five. Like the Eagles, the Packers, the Niners, and the Vikings, those are the teams I had in the top five. I think those are mostly interchangeable. So even if the Eagles are switching out their play caller, the talent is so overwhelming that I have them in my top tier of teams, even with that sort of question coming into the season. I think Kevin Petul is a sharp guy.

I think he could be just fine in the role. But again, we've just never seen it happen before. I find it interesting that for whatever reason, I've just given more benefit of the doubt to like blank slates at play caller on this list. And I don't even know if that's right or wrong. I just find it like interesting that I've walked into that for whatever reason. But I don't know with the Eagles, I just like they have the best offensive line in football probably.

And I know that they're replacing Becht in, but they kind of got Becht in the work for nothing. And they're replacing him with an in-house guy in Tyler Steen. So I think that that will probably be fine. And then skill player-wise, they are as explosive as any team in the NFL. I don't disagree with any of that. I think that's all right. I think you could easily have them higher.

But for me, it was just one of those things. Like, I look at the list, I just, even with the talent, it's just hard for me to put them ahead of Malfour, Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVeigh, and Kevin O'Connell with Justin Jefferson. It's just, it's just hard for me to do that. It does make me feel a little bit scary. But even so we bring up the 2023 Eagles, but I think the 2024 Eagles are also a good example like if you even just have an average play caller, they're incredible.

But actually, I guess I'm going to fight myself. The offense was like quietly not as good as they should. They were 13th and offensive DMOA last year. But that also, you know, the quarterback didn't really play that good until January. He did not play that well for most of the season.

So that is true. But I still just, it's enough, the question about the play car is not enough for me to like move them away from this grouping of teams. It's just enough for me to put them in the back half. of this grouping of teams.

And I don't think that's like some crime. This isn't me disrespecting the Eagles. It's actually me really respecting the Eagles and the talent that they have on the roster. Yeah, that's a really good point. I just, yeah, I don't know. For whatever reason, the complete unknown at play caller isn't scaring me as much as I thought it was going to for some of these teams. And maybe it should.

Maybe I'm like not conceiving of this in the right way. I probably overrated. And I'm willing to admit that. But there have been a lot of times, I come back to last year when we did this exercise and I had the Vikings really high. And I think people were like, why would you have the Vikings that high?

And then you, I don't know, I've watched the play caller. Yeah. I've watched what he does to the quarterback. I think what your play caller does to your quarterback is hugely important. It drives so much of success and failure that to me,

even if I'm over indexing it a little bit, I still think that it's important to like really weigh it as you're talking about this, because it probably matters more than we think it does, in a lot of these cases, not less. It probably does. Like,

I think for a lot of these teams, I've conceived of floor as offensive line, which I think is part of it, but I'm probably underrating play caller a little bit in that. And I think play caller in ceiling. For some of these scenes. Right? Like, the bucks are a good example of this.

Like, that's what changed the ceiling, I think in a lot of ways. And so I think that's also what happens is that, the talent probably, does set the floor in a lot of ways. I think that who's unlocking the talent ultimately helps dictate your ceiling.

Yeah. So I had the Packers at four. I had the Eagles at five. Who did you have at four? The Rams. And this is like pretty much all Sean McVeigh, Pooka, and hopefully Devante Adams. Because I look at this offensive line

and I'm still not sure. I like it more than you do. It's very good. I mean, walk me through that. Like, why? I just don't think they're like objectively bad players. I think that last year. I think it's just a solid group, like solid with potential to be good.

Like, I do think that this could be like the 11th best offensive line in the league. And then when you combine that with the McVeigh part of it and the past catchers, that's what takes it over the top for me. Like this offensive line, I think, is on paper. significantly better than like the Niners Offensive line and I had the Niners at three. So I think for me in a lot of this, I think that the offensive line

being a net neutral combined with really, really good play calling and skill position players, that's enough for me here. And I think that probably applies to the Rams and the 49ers. I also think that last year with the, moving all those guys around before the season started and jerking them around. Yeah, that was a bad thing.

So I just feel like this group has in much more, is on much more solid ground coming into this year than I think they probably were coming into last year because of how they screwed around with it. I might be burned by that a little bit, which obviously that's not going to be the case this year. But I guess I just, I think the guards are going to be good. I think I just have more questions about the other three spots.

And obviously, Havenstein has played well, but he's getting older at this point. Coleman Shelton was signed to like maybe start for them, which doesn't inspire that much confidence to me. And then Alaric Jackson is, where do you really rank him among left tackles to me? Good enough. Like I don't, but if there's like 27 good enough left tackles, like is that really? I'm in good enough range with the left tackles.

I need good enough. I'm not sure I am. I guess with Alaric Jackson, I think he's closer to the line than maybe you do. I think is this guy like, is it a green light? Like that, that's kind of where I'm at when you're building that group. Obviously, you want better than that. but am I like going to lay awake worried about this person? That's kind of how I think about left tackles.

It's similar to how I think about quarterbacks. And he's not somebody I'm going to lay awake thinking about. Like he made $19 million this off season. I think it was justified based on the market. He's in the Dan Moore group. Like it's a very similar sort of tier. But I was lower on the Dan Moore thing. I think like that range of tackle,

I'm a little bit less enthusiastic about having it. Not enthusiastic about it. Doesn't give me night terrors. That's where I'm out with that tier of offensive tackles. In January, it does a little bit. I'd be more worried about the right tackle getting hurt and the weirdness on the end tier than I would be about the left tackle with the Rams. And I'm still not worried about most of it.

I just don't think they have a ton of like defined weaknesses with the offense right now. I think that Puka and Devante Adams is awesome. Could be awesome. Like, yeah, it could be so good. It could be so good. That part you don't have to sell me. McVeigh. It's really good.

Yeah. Like, he's really, really good. And he doesn't even have that Lafleur thing where the floor is quite as high. Like, he's had lesser seasons. But I still think that, you know, what that group has been went healthy over the last couple of years on offense. I choose to believe it, you know? Like, they were fourth and weighted offensive DVOA in 2020.

They were in the top, I think they were seventh last year. Like, this group, I still think has immense potential. And you're dropping Devils. Monta Adams into it, and I think you're going to have more stability along the offensive line than you had last year. I am, for whatever reason, probably have more reservations about the offensive line. And maybe that's dumb because they were also not very healthy last year. And hopefully you assume that they will be more healthy this year. And so maybe I'm not calculating for that well enough.

Let's go back two years. Let's go back to the 2023 offensive line that was mostly this group. they played in really, really well that year. And, you know, Havinsstein's two years older, but I still think like that level of play or even like 85% of that level of play, I don't think that is a crazy expectation.

Like I think that's very much in the realm of possibility. Yeah, it probably is. I don't know why I can't get there with this unit. Maybe it's the center specifically. I really don't know. But that's a good point because it's mostly the same. He's still on the team. He could win that.

I might be for whatever reason underrating the fact that like if they just get average play that McVeigh is going to make it insanely good. I guess part of it too is I still have reservations about the running back room really getting enough. Like even if the offensive line is better like Kairn Williams was sneaky like not that good last year. And I don't know if they have any better options. I'm fine with him.

I'm not all that worried about it. This is still like a top 10ish running game. last year, even with all the offensive line issues. He's not explosive, but I think them being able to rely on a consistent running game, I think that's all they need for this thing to work. Yeah, I guess if Adams just makes the team more explosive, then it doesn't matter if the run game's not. But I guess in my head, a good Rams offense is an explosive run game,

but maybe that's just kind of outdated. That hasn't been true in like five years. I know, I know, but like, I don't know. They won the Super Bowl since that happened last. But even Stafford, like, I know we're supposed to be removing the quarterback from this, but like that version of Stafford doesn't exist anymore quite to the same degree. So like it's just, I don't know, the calculus to me is different. Again, I got, I might be over indexing the play caller, but I think that all the other boxes

were checked enough. I don't blame you for that, by the way. I don't blame you for saying, hey, the two best play callers of the last like 15 years maybe are going to be really, really good again. I'm keeping that in the top three. that one. I think that's fair. I think that's fair.

That's our top 15 each, right? I had the Rams at two. Yeah, and because I had the Eagles at two. And then obviously we both have the Vikings at one. Yes. Which that to me was, I think purely on talent, the Eagles are better.

But I mean, if I'm also going to add Kevin O'Connell on top of it, who is probably what, the third best play caller in this conference, yeah, man. Like, the only part of this that I think could pull them down a tiny little bit is that the offensive line

is still a little bit of a projection. And it's not even just the offensive line. It's the perceived uptick in running game quality that is still just a projection. It's hard to find reasons they shouldn't than reasons they should. So I think it's actually more interesting to talk about why they shouldn't be number one. And the built-in improvement for the running game because they got Will Fries, Lannon, Jackson, not Lanna Jackson, Lannis Jackson, Lannis Jackson for the Bills. Donovan Jackson, Will Fries, and Kelly.

It should be better, but again, we have not seen that happen. And we're going on multiple straight years of the running game letting them down when they've tried to tap into it as an engine of the offense deep into the season. You should have a cleaner path to that with these guys on the interior, but it's still something we have not seen in actuality yet. Everything else I feel pretty good about. And because that's the thing is that even if they don't do that, right? Like, let's say they still have some of the same run game issues.

They're still going to be like a top eight offense in theory. Like, if you get average quarterback play out of JJ McCarthy, like they should be still really insane. Well, so here's the difference. They were like a decidedly below average rushing team in each of the last two years. I think a lot of that was offensive line talent. But again, I think some of it is not quite being able to solve for what you wanted to be on the ground. I just don't think they've ever clicked into that. Even if they failed to do that again, I still.

think the uptick and offensive line talent means they finish 13th in rushing efficiency instead of 20th. And when you combine that with what the passing game supporting cast looks like, I think it's enough for me to put them at number one. And to me, again, the reason they're this high and number one specifically is because Kevin O'Connell kind of puts them over the top. And to me, if they're going out and getting these particular players, Will Fries, Ryan Kelly, Donovan Jackson, people who move you, I think Kevin O'Connell is like,

I want my run game to do a little bit more and to be able to move people. So he, I think, was clearly forward thinking about this. And I have a pretty high amount of faith in his ability to figure that out, even if we haven't seen it. Also, you mentioned that Kevin O'Connell is the reason they're number one and like what sort of play caller he is. I'm going to say that Justin Jefferson. Also the best. Yeah.

I think that having, if not the best receiver in the NFL, then one A, A, one B with the guy who plays in Cincinnati, that, that matters to me. Like I love AJ Brown. AJ Brown's an incredible player. As we're talking about all these guys, Pook and Aku, it's Vante Adams, really good receivers. There's one guy in the NFC who, to me, exists in a tier of his own. And when you combine that with now a group of offensive personnel that truly has no weaknesses,

right? Like, who's the worst starter on the Vikings offense right now? If Will Fry's compass back healthy. Probably whoever is playing wide receiver three, which at that point, like, who cares? Sure. Yeah. So it's some combination of Jalen Naylor and Ty Felton. When in actuality, you could just pop Josh Oliver in there

and you wouldn't even have to worry about your third receiver. And then it's the guy at left guard you drafted in the first round. That's what you want. When you don't want the state of your offense to be, the guy I drafted to play whatever offensive line position for me in the first round has to be my best offensive lineman. Having him hopefully be your worst offensive player, that's where you want to be as an offense heading into the season,

combined with a very good play caller. that's a really good point like if their first that is such a funny framing of why they're so good their first round pick could be their worst starter and they could be still like a top five offense that's crazy yes that's crazy you probably can't say that about like any other team

that's insane no yes I don't think any other team is relying on their first round pick to that extent again it's still a starter still matters a lot but I think that is a good way to kind of understand what sort of depth and what sort of top to bottom quality we're talking about here with Minnesota. All right, that was a lot longer than it needed to be on June 17th.

But there was so many things to dig into. I'm glad we got to chew on that a little bit. Love doing that exercise. If you have not listened to the AFC show, did that last week. That is available in your feed. So go give it a listen if you haven't. We'll be back later this week with two more shows, one on Thursday, one on Friday. Please be on the lookout for those for now.

That's all we got. Appreciate you guys. We'll talk to you very soon.