The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - NFL Coaching Carousel with Peter King, Wild Card Weekend postmortem with Sheil Kapadia

Episode Date: January 13, 2021

First, Robert is joined by the legendary Peter King to discuss the already-underway NFL Coaching Carousel, as teams start to fill the vacancies on their respective staffs, including the Eagles, looking for Doug Pederson’s replacement, the Texans, and the Jaguars, as well as some of the names in play, like Arthur Smith, Robert Saleh, Joe Brady, Brandon Staley, and Urban Meyer.Then, The Athletic’s own Sheil Kapadia returns to the show to do a Wild Card Weekend postmortem on the teams that were ousted from the playoffs, including the Seahawks, Bears, Colts, Steelers, Titans, and the Washington Football Team, discuss where they are right now, and what their respective futures hold.You can get an annual subscription to The Athletic for just $3.99 a month when you visit theathletic.com/footballshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. Shil Kapati is going to be joining us a little bit later to do some post-mortems on the playoff teams that lost last weekend. I know Nate and I did a little bit of that on yesterday's show, Monday's show, but we're going to really dig in.

Before we do that, though, I'm incredibly excited to have, I'm going to say the legendary Peter King joining us on the show. Peter, thank you so much for doing this. Robert May. is my former co-worker. How are you doing? I'm doing great. I don't know if people remember that.

It was, so it was 2015 after Grantland folded. That was Grant unfolded on October 30th. It was a Friday. And my contract was up like a month later. And on Monday, you called me and asked if I wanted to come work with you guys at the MMQB for the rest of the season. I instantly said yes and was very excited about it. it, but still to this day, I am incredibly grateful for that opportunity and for you throwing me

a life raft at a time I desperately needed one professionally. So thank you for that. Well, hey, look, it was great to have you because I knew, look, I knew both in a football way and in sort of a feature, a football feature way. You know, so many of the things that you did for us were so interesting. And now his name is escaping me. Remember the defensive lineman? I think it was a second round pick. I know exactly what you're talking about.

Who played in New York City. Who played competitive football in New York City before he went, darn it. What's his name? He went to Illinois. Jihad Ward. It's Jihad Ward. Yeah, that's right. Jihad Ward.

He was, so he played at the Globe Institute of Technology, which was this tiny little... Juninger College in New York City. So he was living, it was this very strange program that they had, and they would have players come in, and they didn't really house them because it was kind of this roughshod program. So he lived in Staten Island, and they practiced at this little park in Manhattan. So for that story, after talking to him in Champaign, where he was at school, I went to New York and I retraced the entire kind of path and journey he had to take to practice every day.

It was like a car ride, a ferry ride. They had to go to this storage unit to pick up their pads and then bring them to the field. It was what he had to go through every day to even practice was amazing. And then he was a second round pick. And he's still in the league. He made a really nice play for the Ravens on set on Sunday against the Titans at the game I was at. So it all comes full circle. Yeah.

You know, the other thing I really kind of remember that you did, It was so much fun. You wrote a story about, and this was, this is probably one of your last stories for us, because I remember you and I met at the Combine in 2016, and I tried to persuade you to stay. Yeah, that's right. You left. But you wrote a really interesting story comparing Jared Goff and Tim Couch.

I don't know if you remember it. But the story was really good because I think in history, football history, has beaten up Tim Couch in a totally unfair way. If you listen to Bruce Ariens, he thinks that he would have been like an all-time great quarterback if he hadn't gotten beat up. He firmly believes that. To me, Tim Couch and Derek Carr or David Carr rather are almost the same player. I feel bad for both of them, but I especially feel bad for couch because everybody looks at him, ah, another crappy Brown's draft choice. No, no, he wasn't.

He was a good draft choice who just happened to get the living tar beat out of him for a long time. But anyway, I know we want to talk about other things, but I like playing the way we were with you. I trust me, I totally appreciate it. And I did end up leaving, and I ended up leaving because I really wanted to work with my old coworkers and my old friends again. And I enjoyed that experience. I enjoyed my experience with you. You know, every little step along the way is important. It all, it makes us, it takes us where we are.

And I'm, you know, I wouldn't change the route I took for anything. So we're going to get into the coaching carousel and some of these openings and what teams are looking before. Before we do that, though, I want to talk to you about the football morning in America column you wrote on Monday, something that if you guys don't read it, I don't know. if you're a football fan. It's just part of my Monday routine and should be part of yours as well. So you spent a lot of time in that column this week talking about the Browns and the crazy week that they had.

And I talked to a couple people there about what it was like, but you got some amazing details. I think my favorite one is the fact that they had to sign Blake Hans because he could drive to Cleveland. And that was necessary in the COVID protocols in order for him to play. So the number of available players that they could have signed for that offensive line spot was incredibly small because they needed someone who had been in the testing protocol the entire season and was signable. So on a practice squad and didn't have to get on a plane to drive to Cleveland. Those are the types of loopholes that exist right now.

So among all of the details that you learned about that Wild Browns week, which do you think is the one that will stick with you? Well, Blake, Blake Hans is the incredible story because when, okay, you saw that, you saw that basically, you know, the Browns through their GM, Andrew Barry, calls Joe Douglas's old friend from the front office of the Eagles and said, hey, I hate to do this last weekend of the season because you might have them active on Sunday, but we need an offensive lineman. and I like Blake Hans. And we need to sign. He explained why the two offensive line coaches both were out positive with COVID. And they were worried that some guys were going to start testing positive. It's amazing that they got through that game against the Steelers, by the way, and had Joel Betonio before he did turn positive.

Who knows how he did, but he did. But anyway, the point that I thought was interesting is that they work out all the details. They signed this guy who had tested that morning in Florham Park, New Jersey. He gets in a car at noon. He drives to the Intercontinental Hotel, gets there about 7 o'clock in Cleveland, in time for evening meetings with the Browns. And he walks into the elevator and he looks over and he says, hey, Case, Case. And Case Kean of the backup quarterback looks at the guy and said,

Do I know you? and the previous year in training camp in Washington, Case Canem had been the starting quarterback, Blake Hans had been an undrafted free agent guy who was just trying to make the practice squad. And he said, it's Blake, Blake Hans. And he goes, oh, my God, he said, what are you doing here? He goes,

That's incredible. I'm on the team. And then he played. And then he had to play 14 snaps, which is just. Well, actually, he didn't. play against the Steelers in the regular season finale. But then in the playoffs,

you had to play. In the playoff game, he played 15 snaps. And imagine walking in totally cold on a freezing night in Pittsburgh. And you run onto the field and you line up at left guard and you look across the way. And there's Cam Hayward. All he's done is make four pro bowls and been all pro twice. So your first snap in the NFL, you got to block Cam Hayward.

Heyward and good for Blake Hans. He's just not a cool story that Baker Mayfield calls out at the end of the game. He played 15 snaps, allowed no sacks and no quarterback hits. So I talked to Andrew Barry after the game and is euphoric and excited as he was about winning this game, he just was over the moon for Blake Hans. So anyway, I don't know. Those tiny little moments are amazing. As you know, as you know, there are a lot of times in this business where you invest some time in a story that craps out.

And I had an 85% chance that that story was not going to work. But you know what? I just thought, hey, if it does work, when I started finding out things like that, if it does work, I said, holy crap, this is going to be pretty cool. So I got lucky, you know. But again, sometimes you make your own luck. And I could have said, ah, the Browns will never win that game. But I didn't. I just said, I, I'm not saying I was rooting for them to win the game, but I was pretty

happy when they did, quite honestly. Trust me. I've been the same boat. I had something running. It'll be today, it'll run on Wednesday, that if a certain team hadn't won last week, we wouldn't have been able to do it. So I completely understand. And it's funny, that drive from Florin Park to Cleveland, I'm sure you

know it well because that is a very familiar training camp drive because there's not a lot between Cleveland and the Jets. So when you're doing your tour, which I've done before, that's one I've gotten to know is like that eastern drive to Cleveland is one that we've all had to do. So good for Blake Hans. He's an NFL writer now. It was cool. All right. Let's get to a bit of coaching news I did not expect to have to talk about today. When we decided to do this, this was not on my original to do. And now it has to be the Philadelphia Eagles move on from Doug Peterson. And a bit of a surprising twist, I think, considering the success he had there, the guy's got a

stadium outside. I thought they might decide to keep him and just see if they could work through some of this stuff. They eventually decide it's not worth it. This is irreparable. It's time to move on. In your mind, based on the conversations you've had and your reading of the situation, what do you think ultimately led to this decision in Philadelphia? You know, I think there was a couple of things.

Jeff Lurie and Howie Roseman both thought that the Philadelphia Eagles had a chance to set themselves up for a long time to be good after they won the Super Bowl. And at the end of this year, two things happened. Jeff Lurie looked up and said, we're four games under 500 since we had the greatest win in Eagles history. and that is not satisfactory with the money we've spent, or we have spent. Number two, and I think this was really important to the thing. I don't, I mean, Robert, I don't know, and I'm not sure that we're ever going to know. But I think the Nate Sudfeld decision played a factor in what Jeffrey Lurie did. I just do, because, you know, in that game, they had a chance to win a game against a division,

rival. And even though the game meant nothing to the Eagles in terms of the standings, you know, I don't think you ever want to set an example for your team that I want to get a loyal soldier, our third string quarterback, some snaps. You can't defend that. You simply can't. And Doug Peterson has tried to defend it a bunch of times. It's indefensible. You should not be playing with standings, playing with what I think is an unofficial honor code among coaches and teams, that there's two teams right there that whoever wins that game, one team's going to the playoffs and one isn't. And for you to, and again, Doug Peterson will deny this. And he didn't throw the game. He significantly lessened his chances of winning the game. Because,

Robert, you saw it. I know late Nate Sudfeld a little bit, but the fact that you and I like him, but the fact is, he looked like a JV player in a high school varsity championship game. And he didn't belong. He did not belong in that game. And I think that had something to do with it. But the larger thing is, we haven't even mentioned the fact that Carson Wentz wants out. And as Howie Roseman said in his postseason press conference, Carson Wentz is like the fingers on my hand. I can't imagine me, you know, getting up in the morning without Carson Wentz as my quarterback for the next 10, 12 years. And the contract would dictate that. I mean, those, it's connected. Yeah, that, I think those three things really bugged Jeffrey Lurie, but do not eliminate what happened in that last game of the year.

It was, it was a total embarrassment. You know, when Chris Collinsworth, who loves every coach, when Chris Collinsworth, says, and I quote, I could not do what the Philadelphia Eagles did in this game. In a very somber way, what's he saying? He's saying Doug Peterson just made one of the most idiotic moves I've ever seen. Anyway. I think that I had a conversation with somebody today who was somewhat familiar with the situation. And I think the entire thing is kind of a lesson in how fragile a coaching staff is and how fragile a, just the formula and like the alchemy of building the right staff and building the right offenses.

I think in 2017, one of the strengths of that team was the combination of voices in that room with Doug and with Frank Reich and with John D. Filippo and the way they worked together and how even though they were disparate minds and they were collaborating, they were all moving in the same direction. Over the last couple years, against Doug Peterson's will at times, there's been a lot of of shuffling among that offensive coaching staff. And you have guys now in there like Marty Morning Wake and Rich Skangarillo who come from disparate backgrounds and have not been there with them forever.

And now you have all of these different voices in the room chirping. And Doug Peterson was not able to rise above those voices and be kind of the singular one for that organization and for that offense. And it felt like a hodgepodge plan. It felt like nothing that ever was distilled into this is what we want to do, this is who we want to be. This is our vision for this. It was ever streamlined. And I think you could see on the field the effect of all of that shattering and all of those different voices coming from different directions. Yeah, I think that's an excellent point.

The coaching staff point is so incredibly interesting and so true. And I want to tell you a story. Every year after the Super Bowl, I try to write a story. that's going to take something memorable from the game, whether it's a play, whether it's a player, whatever. The year, Denver one, I did something with Von Miller. I've done Eli Manning after he beat Tom Brady. And I went to Brady's place in Montana one year to do it after he had the big comeback against the Falcons.

So every year I try to pick out something that is major important in the game. Okay, and I'll tell you what I picked out of the Super Bowl. Okay, and I found this out after the game. Okay, do you remember the winning touchdown pass in the game? Zach Ertz caught an 11-yard pass from Nick Foles. He was split out to the left side and he ran a little slam. Yes, he was the only one split out to the left side. And what I found out after the game is that this is what exactly what you're

talking about on a coaching staff that works well together. Here's exactly what happened. Mike Groh, who was the receivers coach, when they left Philadelphia, Doug Peterson, talked to the assistant coaching staff before they got on the plane and he said, just because we have the game plan in with our 181 offensive plays, just because we have that in, it doesn't mean that were done. I want you guys to spend Monday night in Minneapolis

looking for new plays that we can use. And so what Mike Groh did, he buried himself at the Radisson Hotel at the Mall of America where the Eagles were staying on Monday night

and he calls Frank Reich Tuesday morning or he talks to him and he goes, I think I got to play. And the play essentially would capitalize on how New England would play defense when there were four receivers on one side of the field, one of whom was coming in motion to that side of the field. They had watched a lot of New England tape and give massive credit to pro football focus because Mike Groh told me that he got this because he studied. the pro football focus tendencies of the New England secondary. And they found out that if you send a back in motion, that you are going to create havoc in that secondary because they will not know

if they should leave the single receiver alone or if that single receiver should have a guy doubling potentially over the top like Duron Harmon. So what they did was they called this play at the most crucial time of the game. Doug Peterson loved it. Frank Reich loved it. Mike Groh brought this play into the game plan. Mike Groh, by the way, who has been fired since. Okay.

Yeah. And he was one of those guys that I'm sure Doug wanted to keep. And there were voices telling him that he needed to go. And now he's back in Indianapolis with Frank Craig. Yeah. And so what it all says to me, And obviously, Zach Earts is singled on Devin McCordy. He beats Devin McCordy and he catches the touchdown pass that need to be affirmed by review.

But he catches the touchdown pass that gave them a 3833 lead. And, you know, they won the game 4133. And all I'm saying about that is when I met Saturday morning after the game in Doug Peterson's office, Frank Wright, Mike Groh, Doug Peterson, there was this sympatico and there was this there was this you finishing each other's sentences part of that that hour and a half that I spent and when I walked out of there I was so I was high just so excited because I knew that I had an incredible story that nobody knew but the point is the point is just think of all the things that have changed in the 35 months since that day.

You know, Frank Reich is gone. Mike Groh is gone. Carson Wentz wants out. Nothing is the same. Nothing. Everything is different on your team. And so Jeffrey Lurie kind of looks at that and says, all right, let's continue it. And we might as well just finish blowing it up.

That team was so magical in so many ways. I remember being around that team. I remember, and they had that feeling where there was just something that clicked. And they bottled it up. And I think that letting Frank, I don't letting Frank, right, go. but losing Frank Reich because that's what happens when you're successful. I think that took the cork out of the bottle, and I think that they were never able to get it back.

For whatever reason, the magic just drifted out, and they were never able to bottle it again. All right, Peter, I want to get into the Texans situation here because it's been a nonstop throw ride of comments and news and everything else. Today, Andre Johnson chipped in, which I think when you've lost Andre Johnson, that's when you know you have a problem, because he's not exactly a vocal presence.

He chimed in and said, or Deshawn Watson should hold his ground that this organization wastes players. So I think that they're losing, even people you would think, would be ardent supporters of what's going on in Houston. They hire Frank Nick Casario. And I was on a panel with Nick Casario once.

I've, you know, I've talked to him at times before. I think he's a very smart guy. I think he could do well. I think the process is the concern that some people have there. And now,

speaking of process, they've requested to talk to Eric Bied to me about their head coaching job, but can't do it until January 25th because of the tampering rules. It just feels like there are so many crossed wires here. So what is your just overall opinion of them eventually landing on Casario and where you think the tenor of this head coach search is right now with all of the unrest that seems to be happening there in Houston?

You know, let's go back to the Sports Illustrated story. by Jenny Vrentis and Greg Bishop on Jack Easterby and whatever a month or so ago. And what I found very, very telling about that story is that either the lawyers or somebody with the Houston Texans did not want Jack Easterby to respond to the charges, the charges that Sports Illustrated had. So they ran the story and I always think to myself, when you don't respond, it's your fault to an ugly story.

That story was an ugly story. And so I just preface that by saying that, look, at some point after the hiring goes, I will be inordinately surprised if Jack Easterby isn't the sacrificial front office lamb in Houston. and you know you don't leave a guy hanging out to dry the way they have with Easterbee and and look who look I'm I don't really know whose fault everything is okay I don't there's a lot of fault to go around and my only point about the Easter Bee deal and all of that is that Texans had it coming you know they I mean firing Amy Pound might be the most lame brain thing of everything that happened there. You know, and, you know, so anyway, my only point is they deserve what they're getting.

And you're right. Andre Johnson is, has been, has, is an employee of the Houston Texans, probably not for long, but is an employee of the Houston Texans is basically a community ambassador. And, you know, it's amazing to me that they have, they have gotten everybody in the community to hate who they are. I know. So I think what they have to do, I think Nick Casario, look, he's been on the job for 10 minutes. And so, you know, it's hard to say, okay, you've got to go do this right now.

Just let him understand the situation first. And then let's give the raging forest fire that is Deshawn Watson right now. Let's give that a few weeks to simmer down. And then very quietly on February 15th or whenever it is, arrange either a meeting or a Zoom call so that Nick Casario can hear off the record. Nobody telling you, Nick Casario and whoever the new coach is can just hear out, Sean Watson and they can try to put Humpty Dumpty back together again. But I think it's going to be hard. It's amazing that, you know, obviously when you take over a general manager job or even a

head coaching job, it's probably because there are some cracks in the foundation for the house you're moving into. But not often are the cracks in the foundation and the house is engulfed in flames the way that it is right now. I mean, the fact that they're having to spray this thing with the hose and that's what he's dealing with on day one, that's a high bar that you have to clear. So they requested to interview Biena me. And I wanted to ask you about him because obviously he's been a name that's on everybody's lips because of the lack of opportunities that he's gotten over the last couple years compared to what the previous chiefs offensive coordinators were able to do, Doug Peterson included.

And now we have this wave of interviews and hires and everything else. And it does feel like we're trending toward this possibly happening again based on some of the conversations. I've had with people, some of the things I've read from you. Where do you think the league stands on Eric B. enemy and where he falls in this hierarchy of potential hires within this cycle? This reminds me of the year that Michael Sam was going into the draft, and the league was petrified that nobody would draft the SEC defensive player of the year and also the man who would come out as gay.

It just reminds me a lot of that. There are people in the NFL office who are just praying that Eric B. enemy gets one of these jobs. There's seven jobs now. There might be an eighth, but I doubt it. Seven jobs now. And I think when you look at this situation and you look at, you look at it any way you would like to.

But if you just try to look in it kind of rationally, Doug Peterson is the, you know, top assistant to Andy Reid, and he's hired away and gets a job as a head coach of the Philadelphia Eagles. Next in line is Matt Nagy. Matt Nagy does a good job. He gets a head coaching job with the Chicago Bears. Now, the one thing both those guys have in common with an asterisk is like Eric B. enemy, they didn't call plays either. Now, late in his tenure for like the last month,

Matt Nagy did because the chiefs were in a gigantic offensive slump. So Andy Reed threw his hands in the air and say, you try it. I stink right now. So, but it might have been four or five games. I don't even remember. But it wasn't much. And so now, here we have the next offensive coordinator, been in place basically for the last three seasons. And the logic says that if you did it with Doug Peterson, one Andy Reid disciple, you did it with Matt Nagy, another Andy Reid disciple, here's the next guy in line. Patrick Mahomes' biggest ally in the building, loves them, has told Deshaun Watson, this is the guy you want as your head coach. And so what happens? you know, because of a few skeletons in his closet when he was a kid in college at Colorado.

And again, everything should be investigated, but nothing really that rises to anything that would not have me want to hire a guy. And then he's got a fairly normal coaching career. But it just really seems like if he doesn't get a job, they're going to be, and I'm not saying there will be players go on strike or anything like that. But it really seems to me that there's going to be some very angry players. I think Troy Vincent, by the way, will go absolutely ballistic. They'll go crazy if Eric B. Enemy doesn't get a job. But we'll see what happens.

I just don't hear his name that much. That's all. I feel the same way. And it just really does feel like it's trending in that direction. Outside of his background, and you guys can look it up. There are some minor, you know, kind of transgressions, whether it was at the security guard while he was at Colorado and then some of the other things while he was a coach there. I mean, that's obviously in his history. But outside of that, is there anything about what he is now compared to some of these other candidates, whether his ability to oversee an offense, the fact that he hasn't coached quarterbacks in the same way that some of these other white coaches have. What is the reason that you think outside of the background that teams might be reticent about giving him that chance compared to some of the other guys that are available? All I can think is because he's 51 years old. Sure.

You know, and all and, you know, and Brandon Staley's 38. Joe Brady is what, 31? It's not as exciting. It's not splashy in the same way. I don't have a good logical reason. Maybe he doesn't win the press conference. I don't know. But I think it's all a bunch of excuses myself.

Speaking of splashy potential hires, how real do you think this Urban Meyer and Jackson? Jacksonville noise is. And what do you think are, what do you think the drawbacks are? Because I think that's the biggest thing. Obviously, the positives are there when you consider the program building that he's done, what he's done as an offensive coach, the amount of winning that he's done. I think all of that is a given.

But I also think that he's left several jobs at younger ages than he is now. And this is a long road in Jacksonville. So do you think this is a realistic possibility? And what do you think the pro and con list that the Jags are going through and their mind consists of? I think it's a realistic possibility. Yes. I mean, as far as the pro and cons of what they're going through, they'd be incredibly

irresponsible if they were not totally dug in on, is this the second coming of Nick Sabin in Miami? I mean, what's the difference really between Nick Sabin and Urban Meyer? both incredible program builders, you know, every year they're 11 and 1 or whatever. Yeah, just a ridiculous record. I mean, Urban Meyer coached for I think 17 years and lost 33 or 34 games. So, I mean, he's obviously great. He's a good offensive mind. He's an excellent program builder, excellent.

But I would just ask, here's a guy. quit his job at age 45, at age 46, at age 54. And there was some, almost every time, there was this some, he has got some health issues, you know, mental fatigue, all this sort of stuff. What do you think is going to happen when you go to a team? I don't care if you draft Trevor Lawrence, Jerry Rice, Aaron Donald, and Lawrence in the first year. care. You're going to lose a lot of games. That's just the way it is. That's life when you come to a lousy team. A team in the last three years has lost 75% of its games. He's never lost in college sports.

Never. His worst record, I think, was what, seven and five. And then he never lost more than three games in any other year in 17 years. It's just, you know, so my question is, is Irvin Meyer going to be like Nick Saban was in 2006, when after going 15 and 17 in the first two years of a five-year contract, he calls up Wayne Heizenga and says, I just can't do it. I want to go back to college. I mean, I don't know. But there is ample evidence, ample evidence that I would be concerned about how long Urban Meyer would last once the losing started. It's interesting because I think the college coach route can be difficult,

and especially when you empower a college coach in the way that, let's say, the Eagles did with Chip Kelly. And the fact that he was, I would assume, in a similar role to the one Urban Meyer would fill, where he is the kind of czar of the Jacksonville Jaguars. He has, say, over the 53, he's the head coach, all of that. The nice part, though, is that I think the best scenario for a coach like that to succeed is with a blank slate.

And that's what they have in Jacksonville. It's not as if it's this veteran-laden roster where he's taken over all of these 28-year-old guys on second contracts. You have a few offensive linemen there that are on those second deals, Brandon Linder, guys like that, and then Miles Jack on defense.

Miles Jack is great. I think anybody would love to build a defense around him. And so that's it. Outside of that, you have a bunch of guys you drafted this year, whether it's Leviska-Chanal, you know, DJ Charks in his third year, but he's still a young guy. James Robinson was a rookie this year. You have two first-round picks this season, an extra second-round pick, and you're about to draft the quarterback number one overall. You have a total starting-over blank slate roster with a guy who is used to dealing with young talent. And I think that's an

argument in their favor. How long he's willing to let that stuff gestate and work through having that young roster is an entirely different conversation. I mean, what happens, you know, he's, he probably mentally is ready to go five and 11, you know, in his first year. Okay. And, you know, your young quarterback is, is, you know, getting his reps and everything. So, but now we enter year two. And now there's expectations, as there are with the Chargers and Justin Herbert. And, you know, assuming that Joe Burrow can come back, on time. There's expectations. Okay, but I guess I just look at this and say, and look, I could be proven totally wrong. And if I am dig up this video and I'll say, hey, I was told you,

this audio. And really, and I'll say, hey, I was totally wrong. Because I don't know Urban Meyer. I do not know Urban Meyer. So I can't, I have no inside information at all. None. I am just looking at this from the outside, and I'm essentially saying this hire would scare me. Let's get to some of the other guys who are candidates for these jobs and the list that's been kicked around, which become pretty familiar here. Would you say that Arthur Smith is near the top of this pecking order, considering he's gotten looks at literally every single one of the openings that is available right now? If I would look at it right now, Robert, I think Arthur Smith and Robert Salah,

sit above all. Okay. And essentially, when you say they sit above all, what I mean essentially is that there's not only the most buzz about them, but you can't really find a lot negative about Robert Sala. You can't find a lot negative about Arthur Smith. And look, you don't know what's going to happen when they have to take over a team. And I will say this. I don't know Robert Sal. I feel bad about saying this, but I've never had a conversation with him.

That is bad on me. But I do know Arthur Smith's some. And anybody who talks to him at some length will say, this guy's got it going on. He knows how he's going to know how to build a program. And if he gets a chance, I think he'll do a pretty good job.

job. I think those two guys are above all. On the next level, I think you start looking at people like Joe Brady. And again, I think you look at Brandon Staley if, what happens if the Rams shocked the Packers this weekend? I, you know, in my, my feeling is, if that happens, is my opinion. And if they really shut down Aaron Rogers, if that happens, my opinion is Sean McVeigh better start looking for a new defensive coordinator.

Because I think then, and look, I don't think this is likely. If I had to go to Vegas and bet on one game this week, one team this weekend, I'd probably bet on the Packers. But be that as it may, Brandon Staley has been tremendous.

So I'd put them on the next level. But I guess I'd, look at this thing and say, I think there's only two guys when I look at it, oh, I'm pretty sure are going to get jobs. The Brandon Staley thing is interesting. I think that even though he's a first year coordinator, I'm really interested in the backlog of connections that he has at the college level, because he's been around for a while. He was with Fangio for a couple years, and now he's in his first year.

And the amount of time he spent in college and some of the connections he has there, I think he could put together an interesting staff with some maybe unconventional choices the same way he was an unconventional choice for the Rams defensive coordinator job. The Joe Brady thing, he's been an NFL coordinator for a year, and he was a defensive coordinator in college, or office coordinator in college for a year. Outside of that, he wasn't even a position coach. So the one kind of one thing that people might be worrying about with him is what does his rolodex look like to build the staff? Right. Because with McVeigh, McVeigh was a coordinator for

a couple years in Washington, and he was a position coach for a couple years longer than that in Washington. And McVeigh hit 500-foot home runs with the two hires you need to kill if you're a young play calling head coach. He brought in Wade Phillips as his defensive coordinator to essentially do that side of the ball, that's you. And Aaron Kromer is his offensive line coach who had been around forever and is somebody who can just take care of the run game and do that stuff. Those two hires were huge. Is Joe Brady going to be able to find guys? guys like that that are pillars of his staff with the amount of time he's spent in the league. So when you have conversations about people with Brady, what do you think worries people

about giving him that job after this short of a track record within the league? Two things. You just said the first one. And I totally agree with you. The second one, which I find very interesting. And can I make one other point about what, what you just said about that. There's a very little and little paid attention to,

which is a horrible phraseology by someone who works in writing sentences. But this didn't get much attention. Jake Peets, the quarterback coach of the Carolina Panthers, left Carolina to become, I guess, the offensive coordinator, if that's what it's called, at LSU. Yep. Now you say to yourself, hmm, a declining program under some heat, maybe we'll get some NCAA heat, and a declining program, they're still top 10, obviously. But bad year for him, who knows, I don't know what the future holds. But, but, okay. And he left a place that either one of two things, he loves Joe Brady. And he loves working with Joe Brady this year. So he had to figure one of two things. One, Joe Brady's not going to get a job.

And so I will be the quarterback coach again next year. Is it better for me to be the quarterback coach here or at a very high profile job, which has been a jumping off point for some people at LSU should I be the offensive coordinator? And the other thing that he must have been thinking is that, okay, if he doesn't leave, would he take me with him if he gets a head coaching job? And so my feeling is when I look at both of those things, Jake Pete's probably thought at the end of the day,

whatever happened, he was going to be the quarterback coach of the Carolina Panthers. And would not have been if, for instance, Joe Brady got a job that he probably was not going to make him his offensive coordinator. That's just my guess. And I don't know. But I just look at it. that's one thing. And I think the second thing is, uh, you've, you've got to, it's one thing to be

Sean McVeigh and to be Mr. Carisma and all that stuff. To be a coordinator for three years as young as he was. He was coordinator for three years. So it's one thing to say all that. And then when you look at it, and this is sort of the way I look at it, man, Joe Brady is so young. You're right. Two years ago, two years ago. Uh, he's offensive assistant. He doesn't even have a position within the New Orleans Saints. So I don't know. I think you speak truth. I think the charisma thing is underrated when it comes to luring established coaches to come in and be a part of your staff.

And I really do think that matters. And I think that Sean McVeigh being this kind of force in that way and having this gravitational pull allowed him to lure some established coaches and to have a great staff from the start. Even somebody like Matt LaFleur who had worked with Matt Ryan and had just come off of being the quarterback's coach for an MVP winning quarterback ended up going to Los Angeles and being the offensive coordinator for the Rams on that staff. They had a fantastic coaching staff to help, not prop Sean McVeigh up, but to really allow them to hit the ground running immediately. And I think that matters. Even somebody like Sean McDermott had trouble building his staff in Buffalo right away. and they really got lucky by landing Brian Daibel in that second season and kind of being able to shape things there. If you look at the amount of turnover the bills had from 2017 to 2018,

it was considerable. They had Ken Dorsey come in and eventually be their quarterback coach last season, and then they had Daible come in and be their offensive coordinator. These are the little tiny things that I don't think I would have appreciated five years ago that I've really started to think about more. And I think what Joe Bray. Staff matters in a big way. I really agree.

And I think that's what you. Joe Brady, that's going to be the stuff that people think about. It's really a matter of if you're weighing scheme versus the voice in the building. And I don't know Joe Brady. He might be a bigger presence than I think he is. But I know that Sean McVey is. And I think that's the question. How much does scheme matter and how much just being that voice at the top of an entire organization matter?

And I think that's what teams are going to have to be asking themselves. And does it also matter? Think about one other thing. does it also matter that Teddy Bridgewater had a C year, maybe even a C minus year? He wasn't very good. And if Joe Brady is supposed to be so great with quarterbacks like he was with Joe Burrow at LSU, he didn't show it this year. A lot of things to consider.

Peter, you have to go. I really, really appreciate the time. It's always so good to chat with you. And I know it's a busy time of year. So thank you very much for the time. And I'm sure we'll catch up at some point. Hey, you're welcome, Robert. It was great.

call any time and let's stay in touch, all right? Awesome. Thanks, Peter. All right. Very excited to welcome our old friend, Shooka Patti, to the show. How you doing, bud? Doing well. We're in that mix of offseason stuff and playoff teams and everything. So this is a hot spot. Got to balance it.

That's why I love the Wednesday show, because it removes us from the rigors of the calendar. And we can kind of step back and do some house cleaning. That's exactly what this show is for. So Nate and I got into a little bit of this on Sunday's show as we went through the games, but I purposefully didn't go too far down the road with any of those teams because I knew I wanted to do something like this. And I want to just talk about where all six teams that lost last weekend are right now and what their immediate and even long-term future might look like. So let's start with the Seahawks, a team that you have covered in the past and also I think has more to dig through than some of these other teams. So Nate and I on Sunday's show talked about, I said,

I thought the lessons that Pete Carroll learned from the second half of the season would shape what this team looked like for the next several years. It took about 10 hours and Pete came out and said the lesson he learned is they needed to run the ball more, which is horrifying but also understandable. So here's a quote from him directly, according to Joe Fan from NBC. We need to run the ball with direction and focus and style that allows. allows us to dictate the game. Frankly, I'd like to not play against two deep looks all season long next year. We have to be able to get that done.

I would argue that running because teams are playing too high safeties against you does mean that you're not dictating the game. It means that teams are dictating the game to you. Anyway, that's a whole different conversation. So it's been a news-filled week with Pete Carroll saying stuff like that. John Schneider gets his extension today, which will have him there for the long term. there was some questions about whether he would want to move on and be in charge of the 53 somewhere, that's no longer a consideration.

So when you think about just where this team is at the end of this season, where they need to go, and the familiarity you have with how steadfast they are in some of these beliefs, what do you think are the questions that the Seahawks feel like they need to answer moving into 2021? I feel like this has become an annual tradition, really. It's like the Seahawks have a pretty good season. they lose in the playoffs in a game that frustrates the entire fan base. Seahawks, Twitter, the coaching staff, whatever the case. And then it's just like, and then everyone moves to this grand, like, blow it all up.

They got to do this, this and this. I mean, they had a really good season, you know? Like if you look at any metric, they were very good in the regular season. They won, what, 12 games? They win the division. This wasn't like winning a bunch of one-score games. You know, I think they were top five in DVOA. So Seahawks fans, if you're let, just take a deep breath.

All right. It's still, you know, you're still going to be in the mix up. You know, I thought they made a big step in the right direction this year. You know, obviously there was all the let Russ cook stuff. And I really look at it. The second half of the season, the offense. Yeah, there you go. The offense was not the same.

But, you know, the numbers I've looked at, it's not like all of a sudden they're running the ball on first and second down. I mean, they definitely needed to find more answers on offense. And I wonder if the words that Pete Carroll, you know, what you just said there, if that's taken a little bit, like, I don't look at that, like they're going to revert to two years ago or three years ago or whatever. I think every NFL coach, every NFL offensive coach you talk to would say when the other team is playing with two deep safeties, we need to be able to gash them in the run game. So I don't think that's crazy. What you said is true. You know, certainly you don't want them to just be able to take you out of what you're doing. But they obviously needed answers against split safety.

looks, whether that was more quick game, whether that was Russell Wilson reading it out and taking what the defense was giving him and stringing together long drives because they were over-reliant on the downfield passing game, whether that was running the ball or more RPO's or whatever you want to say there. But I think they weren't used to defenses playing them that way because of what their philosophy has been for, you know, seven, eight years since Pete Carroll got there. And so I do think they need to adjust there for sure. I'll be curious, and I agree with you. I think that what he said makes sense.

I just think it's really funny that that's his first response to all of this. So I think that, you know, I said this to Nate, and I firmly believe it. Saying we need to run the ball a little bit more, maybe let's introduce some quick game and stuff like that, those are a little tiny tweaks. I think they really need to sit down and have a deep conversation about what they want to accomplish offensively

and how they can do it. And I don't know if keeping Brian Schottenheimer and saying if we just kind of change some of these dials, we'll find the answers. I think it might be deeper than that. If you look at some of the underlying numbers from what they did and some of Russell Wilson's strengths and weaknesses, I thought that Seth Galena wrote a really good piece today on PFF about the type of quarterback that Russell Wilson is, he struggles to read stuff out in the middle of the field. He really does. And he's a smaller player, and that's not surprising. And if you look at some of the other quarterbacks who are his size within the league and some of the ways they've gotten around that, I think Baker Mayfield is a perfect example. Baker Mayfield also struggles to read stuff out over the middle of the field in quick game because he can't see.

The Browns have tailored an offense that moves his launch point purposefully to kind of negate that issue. I think that the Seahawks really need to consider figuring out ways to build the offense around Russell Wilson in ways. in ways that suit his strengths, but also suit that. And I think that is play action and moving the pocket. And I think I'm like a broken record, and I'm almost a caricature of myself at this point, saying more teams should use more play action. But I think that he's the best downfield passer, arguably, in the league.

Finding ways to move those launch points, to allow him to be a downfield passer and also not forcing him to play over the middle of the field and things like that. I just think there's a way to do that that is a substantial departure from the way they've played offense over the last couple of years. They were 20, Russell Wilson, over the second half of the season, I think was 21st in play action rate in the NFL. That doesn't make any sense when you consider what his strengths are as a quarterback and what he does well. They also were in shotgun on 70% of their snaps, which is above league average.

I would love to see them in more of an under center move the quarterback, play action, boot type offense. because even though I think that suits everyone, I really think it suits what Russell Wilson does well and kind of glosses over the things he doesn't do very well. Yeah, and obviously that would help the offensive line also. Exactly. The receiver is downfield. So that makes a lot of sense.

I mean, it goes to this bigger kind of question, you know, when you talk about Brian Schottenheimer and like, I feel like this was going on for years with Beville and now Schottenheimer and it gets to the, you just watch the Seahawks and you, for as good as the numbers are and as good as the efficiency is and as much success as they've had, you always watch them and wonder, is this the, you know, 99th percentile version of what this offense could look like with the quarterback they have? That's just the fact of the matter. Anyone watching them, I think you have to think that you don't watch that offense and say,

wow, you know, they're really helping out the quarterback and they're maximizing his strengths and they're masking his weaknesses and the same with everything else on the roster. And Like you said, there are other offenses you look at and you say they're absolutely doing that. You know, the Tennessee Titans, right? You watch them every week and you say, all right, and I know we're going to talk about them, but you watch them every week and you say they are maximizing the talent on this roster. This scheme is perfectly suited for the players they have. Like if you swapped, you know, Arthur Smith for another coordinator this year, would it be better?

The answer is no. Well, you know, with Bevel, I thought Bevel was maybe a little bit underrated. I thought he was okay. with Schottenheimer with his track record, you kind of look at it and say, it could get a lot more interesting, you know, if they had someone else in there. Now, I will say from having covered that team for two years, it's not the easiest offensive coordinator job because you do have the defensive head coach and he's telling you how to play and he's telling you how he wants to play. And if you have a game with three turnovers, guess what? That's going to be a long flight home or

a long Monday morning because that is everything to him. I mean, they could be fluky turnovers. They could be deflected passes. The snap could have gone over Russell Wilson's head. It doesn't matter. If you are turning the ball over, you are going to hear about it. So like all those questions, I don't know if I have like a great point to make with that, but those are just kind of all the factors when you look at their offense and try to figure out, well, what could they be going forward? What are they going to be going forward? And I think the reason it's such an important consideration is because there aren't, there's not help coming. This team does not have resources. They're out two first round picks from the Jamal Adams trade. They have $17 million.

in Cappspace. Guys like KJ. Wright are free agents. Shaq Griffin is a free agent. They are not in a position to add a bunch of talents of this team. And also, this is the moment

where when you use your first round picks on low ceiling players, you find out what that means. L.J. Collier was last among the nine regular defensive linemen on the Seahawks in pressures this season. He was a first round pick two years ago. Jordan Brooks is a third linebacker

who now becomes your second. second linebacker if KJ Wright goes away. As a first round pick, the impact of that is going to be fairly minimal. Rashad Penny was your first round pick three years ago. This team does not have a lot of young ascending players. When you've drafted those sorts of players without much upside, you realize what the downside is. And that's where they are right now.

And the Jamal Adams trade is one of those moves in the moment. You're like, oh, this is so fun. Absolutely. They're a contender. They're going to be picking in the 20s. Let's fucking do this. It's now the same. Seahawks are kind of in that morning after mode where you had one too many and somehow all your money is gone.

And even though it seemed fun in the moment, you wake up and you're like, oh, man, I shouldn't have done that. That's kind of where the Seahawks are right now after the offseason that they had. Yeah. The draft pick thing is a great point because you're not going to hit on every pick. But man, if one of those guys was just like a great wide receiver, you know, I don't know. You could pick your spot, a great offensive lineman, a great wide receiver, a great. pass rusher. You know, they're, they're kind of, even cornerback.

I mean, yeah, Shack Griffin's a free agent. Quentin Dunbar is a free agent. Like, they got a, they don't have anything at the cornerback position. They don't have pass rush on this team. We saw it. I mean, Jamal Adams kind of gave them that and they blitzed more than they typically do for a Pete Carroll offense. And then there's going to be a bill to pay with Jamal Adams too, right?

I mean, the contract has not, that hasn't been worked out yet. So, like, that's, that's another thing you kind of have to figure out as well. So I don't think it's panic mode. I mean, it's crazy because it's just like Pete Carroll, Russell Wilson, your floor is going to be pretty good, right? I mean, no one's expecting this team to win like six games next year or be a complete disaster. But like as every year passes, the quarterback gets older.

You have a season like this where you win 12 games, you win the division, you're getting a home playoff game. You know, there's no dominant team in the NFC. Like this was a year where they really had an opportunity, I feel like if they were able to figure some things out, offensively if they were able to get some contributions from, you know, some of those players that you mentioned earlier and you didn't get it. So now you have to kind of look ahead and figure out what you're going to do. You know, I don't think they're going to drastically change their

philosophy. I think we know that by now, but they did, you know, if you're a Seahawks fan looking for a silver lining, they took a crazy step forward with kind of not just going run, run pass and really focusing on the run game. Now, is that going to last for next year and the year beyond? We don't know that, but, you know, at least they showed a flexibility that, quite honestly, I didn't think they had this, they were going to have at this stage in Carroll's career. It's a step in the right direction, but I think what happened over the second half of the season is concerning. And when you think about the way they've distributed their resources and the fact that Russell

Wilson is a $32 million quarterback, you need to maximize him. In order to be a successful NFL team with a quarterback on a second contract, you need that quarterback to be the best version of himself. that is, it's almost a necessity when you paid that guy. You think about all the teams that are contenders right now that we think could win the Super Bowl, teams like the bills, the chiefs, the Packers. Their quarterback is playing as they are getting every ounce out of those guys. I know Josh Allen hasn't gotten paid, but the Chiefs and the Packers, for example,

that's, it's necessity. It is a thing you need to check off. And right now, in the second half of the season, they were not getting the most out of Russell Wilson with the construction of that offense. And I think that is the number one priority you have to have is figuring out how we can make him a $32 million player. Yeah. And you and you want a, I mean, even their players, you know, talked about this. Like, you want someone who can adjust on the fly. Oh, the Rams are coming out and doing this. Like, I don't know, did you feel confident that they were going to be able to match wits with

the Rams in that game? You know, Tyler Lockett was saying things like defenses were doing things we weren't expecting. That always makes the, you know, antennae go up a little bit, a little bit. You know, you want the coach who says, all right, they're doing this. We weren't expecting it. We're going to come back and do this. There are a lot of smart offensive coaches who do that. I don't know that, you know, Schottenheimer is necessarily that guy for that. All right.

Let's move on to my Chicago Bears. I've had this conversation so many times on the show about what I think they should do. I am definitely on team blow it up. I am the captain of team blow it up because I just don't know what the avenues out of this look like. And I've been saying that since June. You know, you start to think about it. It's like, all right, well, if they bring Nege Ian Pace back and, you know, maybe they franchise Alan Robinson and they sign Mitchell Chubisky in a one-year deal, and then you start

going down that road. Then you think about the realities of that plan. They have no money. Okay, they're up against the cap. Some of their contracts are horrifying. And there are guys hitting free agency. You know, guys like Roy Robertson Harris and Mario Edwards. And you think, God, does that really matter?

But that's the meat of this roster. That's the connective tissue of the roster. Germaine Affetti is hitting free agency. He's not good, but you don't have a guard. Alex Barr's, who's the fill-in-right guard, now that Effetti is at right tackle, is also a free agent. So it's just, there's so many holes they need to plug

without resources to plug them. And when that's the place that you're in, it's just better to start over. When you're trying to play Tetris and it's all starting to fall on you, just turn the game off and restart. Like, that's where they need to be. So that's my stance on this, and that's always what it's been.

Where do you sit on the Bears? Because you've had some thinking about this, too. I know that you guys did the Kevin and Bo and Zach, I think, went back and forth, and you were the moderator. So you've thought about this. Where do you stand on the direction you think the Bears need to go this off season? Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, I don't know how you could look at it any other way, you know,

unless you're just saying we want to be competitive. Like, could they make the playoffs next year? with a couple moves. Yeah, absolutely. They could make the playoffs, but there's no path that offers a high ceiling in the short term. I mean, I honestly, there's nothing they can do barring. You just like get a Justin Herbert and you stumble upon a, you know,

a first round quarterback and he ends up being like Justin Herbert like in 2021. But I mean, that is luck. That's not a plan. That's something you could hope for. So now when you're picking 20th, you know, Matt Jones is your best option. And I'm not sure. I'm sure Mac Jones is going to be Justin Herbert as a rookie. Yeah, right, exactly.

So, I mean, offensively, and this goes to what we were just talking about, I think there are two paths to success. One is you have the great quarterback who just kind of lifts everyone around him, and it doesn't matter who the offensive coordinator is, really. You're going to have a pretty high floor there. They obviously don't have that. They don't have an avenue to get to that in the short term. And then the other one is you have the great schemer, you know,

the great play caller who says, listen, I can do more with less. Just make a couple tweaks here. Maybe you sign one of these low-level free agents. Maybe, you know, I don't know. Maybe it is a rookie, whatever. Maybe you take a couple swings and you do that. But like they don't have that either, you know? And they're bringing back the same coaching staff.

So there's no real path for their offense to be really good next year. As far as I can see, and like you mentioned, I mean, if Allen Robinson is gone, then all of a sudden, look at those weapons. I mean, you know, they are definitely below league average. I don't know if they're the worst in the league or the bottom third, but they are well below league average. And then defensively, you know, you were talking about this earlier this week with Nate. But yeah, you can't count on it year to year.

And I think specifically with this group, right? Like, I mean, it's not like they have a bunch of young players. You know, I know Jalen Johnson will be one of them, but it's not like they have a bunch of young players who you look at it and say these guys are going to take huge leaps next year and you're going to have like a top five defense. So they're kind of stuck in mud. They're in a really tough place where. I agree with you.

You know, can you get like a tag and trade with Allen Robinson and get some draft picks? You know, I don't know. They have the cap space to do that right now. But those are the types of things I think they should be thinking about is let's get some resources. Let's get some draft assets here. Let's take a couple of years. You know, I don't think they're going to be the worst team in the league next year. But they just need a path to kind of get out of the mud that they're in right now.

If you look at over the cap, they're currently $90,000 over the cap without a quarterback, which is always a good place. to be. And then, but you look at the money and then you think about some of the little tiny things that can happen. Like Akeem Hicks, for example, has a 12, it's $12 million cap hit. It's only $1.5 million in dead money. So you could say, oh, they could save $10 million if they release Akeem Hicks.

But then you release Akeem Hicks. Then the things that made you good are no longer in place. That is the spot that they're in. Every single step forward is two steps backward. It's just shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic. And like you said, they're stuck in mud. and who possibly could have predicted this except every single person with the brain. And that is the spot that they're in.

And it's interesting because you don't know how much to project forward because you have no idea what you're projecting with. Is Ryan Pace going to be there? Is Matt Nagy going to be there? I would assume if these guys are getting fired, it probably would have happened yesterday. Unless they're the Eagles and they want to outdo the Eagles and just wait as long as you can and then fire somebody. I don't know. I have no idea what the plan is. I have no idea what the plan should be because I don't think there's any sort of.

smart plan outside of just saying, let's hit the eject button. This is what needs to happen. And that's where I'm at. So it's frustrating, but it's a spot that I've gotten very familiar with. Let's talk about a team who's essentially in the exact opposite position of the Chicago Bears. And that is the Indianapolis Colts. They don't have a quarterback under contract for next year either.

But now with Anthony Cassonzo retiring, they have $72 million in cap space. So it's a slightly different spot for Indianapolis. Obviously, the quarterback is the number one question. I mean, that is easily the biggest thing they have to consider. So in your mind, if you're looking at all the possible directions, the Colts could go at quarterback, which I think they are considering every single one of them. What's the one you would like to see? The one I would like to see is them make a move for a guy who could last longer than, you know, one year.

So I would like to see them move on from Philip Rivers, not because he didn't play well this year. I think that one-year experiment probably went as well as anybody could have imagined. But I think you look at it next year and you say, all right, he was, you know, they were 16th in passing DVOA this year. He was 19th in QBR. Now he's going to turn 40 next year and you're not going to have the same left tackle. Like, is there a path to real improvement next year with Rivers as your quarterback? You know, the more likely scenario is that there's some kind of decline and the offense isn't as good. And it's not like it was great this year.

So I don't know if it's Sam Darnel. I don't know if it's Carson Wentz. Those are the types of moves. I would like to see them make a move for a guy like that, whoever they think is the best guy, and kind of try to come up with a longer-term plan than the one-year run with Philip Rivers. I tend to agree with you.

I think they need an option that is not Philip Rivers in some way. I would have a conversation with Philip Rivers and ask what is important to him and how much money he wants to make this year. Yeah. If you can re-sign Philip Rivers on a one-year $20 million deal and go and go get that number three pick.

That's the one that would be available if Miami wants to deal it. If they don't end up going to trade for Deshawn Watson, which I don't think is going to happen. I think the Colts are the perfect team because they have so much young talent because they've stockpiled picks, they haven't traded anything away on purpose

that could make a move to go get that pick. You pick a Trey Lance or a Zach Wilson or Justin Fields or whoever's there. You bring Rivers back as your bridge guy, they don't plan on maybe starting him the whole season, but I think having him in the building to mentor that guy,

if you can do it for the right price, I think that is the ideal outcome with the amount of cap space that they have because you're not paying the young quarterback. Your quarterback room is still going to cost you about $20 million because Jacoby Peret is going to be gone now. I would love to see that happen.

I think that is the perfect outcome for them. You don't have to press the guy in right away, but if you feel like he's the better guy, we'll see what happens. I think that would make sense to me. I know it seems like a waste of money. If that's not, if Rivers isn't going to be your guy, I just think that having that, it's the Chiefs model.

That's exactly what it is. And I think, and even maybe this guy doesn't even play next year. Maybe you roll Rivers back for one more season. You let the guy sit. He eventually plays. Chris Ballard was in Kansas City and watched what happened there with Alex Smith. He's very familiar with that model. And I think it makes perfect sense for them.

That's the one that I would like to see. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that makes sense too. I think those are there two. avenues. If they like a, if they really like a wince or a Darnold or maybe there's somebody else that I'm not thinking about, then you can go ahead. That to me is a, that's a lateral move to me from Rivers. That's why I don't like this as much. I really do. I don't know how much better Sam Darnold makes you right now than Philip Rivers is going to make you. And I don't know how high his ceiling is. You could argue that, and I think that Darnold is going to be in a consideration for them. I absolutely do. You could argue that Darnold's ceiling is higher because he's young. He's very young. He's so young. essentially as Joe Burrow. Right.

I just think that you're making that move out of convenience. You're buying it because it's on sale. And I just don't know if that's the way I would want to go with it. For Joe Burrow, every guy. Well, you know, this guy's younger than Joe Burrow or the same age as Joe Ferrell. It gets thrown out there. Yeah, I mean, that's a case where it depends what you think of these guys, right? I would agree with you that you need their ceiling to be high to take a big swing like that.

You know, if it's Frank Reich saying I know exactly how to fix Carson Wentz, trust me on this one, it's not a bad move to make. If it's Sam Darnold, they say, we love this guy scouting him. He is so young. It might not take a crazy amount to go and get him. I wouldn't have an option. I wouldn't hate an option like that. But you're right.

I mean, you have to weigh those options against what can you get, you know, possibly trading up there and getting one of the quarterbacks in this year's draft. Who, by the way, if it's close, then you do that, right? Because then you're getting the guy on a rookie contract rather than having to pay wence this year or pay Darnold in the future. I do look at the roster and I wonder if the roster is a little bit overrated though. You know, I think they've got...

I wanted to get to that because I completely agree with you. I don't think it's overrated, but I think they have more holes to fill than people tend to think. Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, I just kind of look at it. Even this year, I felt like they didn't have that high of a ceiling. You know, they've got studs in DeForest Buckner, Quentin Nelson, and Darius Lennar. And then after that, you've got sub-dice players, but like wide receipts. receiver isn't great.

Ty Whilton is a free agent. Edge rusher isn't great. Cornerback isn't great. And so when you make a move like that, like you're mentioning now, all right, you trade up to three. Well,

now you're giving up some stuff. You're not drafting for the same volume as you otherwise would have. So those are all the things that they kind of have to think about with their quarterback situation. I think that the resources they have in free agency are going to be really important.

I think they're a team that absolutely could go get an Alan Robinson or a Kenny Gala day or one of these guys that's available. I think if you roll out next year with a free agent wide receiver, whether it's Robinson or Gowaday or Will Fuller or whoever, Michael Pittman, Paris Campbell, hopefully back, Jack Doyle, the backs they have, all you need on offense really is a left tackle. I know that's a big thing to ask for with Costanza retiring. I am so ordently against the Quentin Nelson at left tackle experience. I can't even describe it to you. You get worse than two positions. That is, I hate moving a really good guard to tackle out of convenience. and I don't think they will end up doing that. But I also think that you say that they have a lot of holes. But the guys you listed, I don't think it's an accident. This is a roster that is built in an analytically sound way. You have an offensive line that's set.

You have a really strong pillar of a defensive lineman. You build up the middle with Blackman and Leonard now, and now you can fill in the pieces defensively with free agents. Yeah. And I think that's what might be happening. I think guys like Richard Sherman would make a ton of sense for them as the same role that they had with Xavier Rhodes this year. Zone heavy.

He's a guy that knows exactly where he needs to be. More cover two than he's typically played in his career. But I still think he would be a great presence. That's a free agent possibly. I think that Trent Williams, if he ends up getting to the market, I would throw all the money at him. Because those are the spots they need.

Corner, left tackle, edge rusher, like you said, and wide receiver. So I think they have a lot of money to be able to go grab a couple of these guys possibly if they don't end up having to pay a quarterback or whatever it happens. So even though they have a lot of holes, they have also a ton of resources to possibly fill those holes. So I think that it's not as complete of a roster as you think it is, but it's foundationally sound and they can make it better, unlike some of the other teams on this list, including the one we're about to get to.

The Pittsburgh Steelers, unlike the Colts, are $25 million over the cap right now. That number shrinks if they move on from Ben Rothesburg, obviously. It's a $41 million ahead if he's on the roster. If he retires, it's $20 million. I'm taking the 20 million and running if I'm Kevin Colbert and the Steelers right now. Outside of that, there's a ton of a ton more questions.

Your left tackle is a free agent. You have two starting defensive backs that are free agents. One of your starting guards is a free agent. So even if they move on from Rathusberger and they get to that $175 million number, there are still a ton of holes that they need to fill. But if we're sticking to the quarterback for a second, in my opinion, this is the Sam Darnold team.

because you can trade what is likely a pretty low price pick for a guy that's making $4.7 million. Again, if you're thinking about the quarterback room as a price tag, you've got $20 million going to Rathesburg or even if he's gone. Donald's base salary next year is only $4.7 million. You can decline his fifth year option. If he's good, you franchise him in 2021 when your money situation's a little bit better. If he's bad, you move on and you try to figure it out elsewhere.

But I think he is a cheap option that would make sense for them if they end up moving on for Rothensberg. But it's it's Rothelsberger's decision, right? I mean, if Rathelsberger says, I want to keep playing, you don't have an option, right? I mean, this is what they've sort of, this is the situation they're in. I think you strongly recommend that you do not want him to do that.

That's the tough part when you have a guy who has been a picture of your franchise. But if I, if I were the Roonies, I would sit down with Ben and thank him for his service and give him a spot with the organization, whatever you want to do in order to get, that $41 million cap hit off the books. And I would not negotiate it down and push that money into further years because that's its own problem. Right. So yeah, those are their options. Just let it play out with him right for 2021, extend him to kind of get some cap relief in the short term and just

kick the can down the road or just talk him into retirement. And yeah, I mean, you look at it and you look at the way their season ended and really their offense the entire year and their passing game specifically and to have a $41 million cap hit for like a passing offense that's not in the top top half of the league. I mean, that is really, really tough to swallow. I like that idea a lot for Sam Darnel. Now, do you kind of, what about like a Matthew Stafford here? I mean, now, they probably can't afford it.

They can't afford it. That's the problem is your options are so limited that I think that's why, like we said, you're shopping at the bargain bin, you're buying it because it's on sale. they need a quarterback that's on sale. And I think that's why Darnold makes sense of them. I wrote that as one of the teams for Donald when I wrote about it in November. And I didn't have any inside info. I didn't talk to anybody there unlike some of the other teams,

but I still think it would make sense for them. The other thing is if they move on from Rathusberger, I think you could see a potential reset in the offensive staff. Because that does seem like it also could be an issue. And Fittner is a Rathusberger guy. I mean, he's been there forever. He was Rathesberger's quarterback's coach when they moved on from Todd Haley, I think they gave Randy that job in part because of the relationship he had with

Rathusberger and their history together and the fact that Rathsburger has so much autonomy over that offense. If you're going to move on to a different quarterback, I think kind of hitting the reset button saying it's time for us to go in a different direction entirely on offense would actually make a lot of sense. I mean, that would be a scenario to, I feel like you should be excited about it if you're a Steelers fan, you know, if they were able to get, if they traded for a Darnold and then maybe if you hit on that offensive coordinator spot, because, again, defense, we don't know, but, like, you know, they've got players up front, certainly on defense, and you figure that they're going to be pretty good there.

And you've got Minka Fitzpatrick on the back end. You're probably going to lose Juju Smith-Schuster, but you still have an above-average receiving core with potential offensive line is a bit of a question. But, like, they could be sort of a very different, but a frisky and competitive team next year, I feel like with a lot of the talent they had there. But I mean, this was just their year to make one last run with Rostlesberger, right? I mean, they had it was the best version of their roster because you have Trey Admin's as a free agent. Mike Hilton is a free agent.

Again, losing the connective tissue of your roster as these guys get a little bit more expensive. There are some spots where they're ready. You know, they have Alex Hotsmith to come in and step in for Bud Dupree. I think that is an understandable succession plan. Same goes with all the receivers. kind of stepping in for juju. You have Deontay Johnson, you have James Washington, you have Chase Claypool. That's a group you can win with. So I agree. I think that they're set up to keep this going a little bit if they make the right tweaks. And I just think that Rathusperger

should not be part of that plan. We'll see what happens though. Because again, he probably gets to go out on his own terms. I think he's going to say, yeah, if I had to peg it, I would, think they're going to be running it back with him. But who knows? That certainly could change. You look so sad. Not exciting. Not exciting. It's just because I think that you have guys, that front is coming back outside of Dupree, and that group is still dominant. You're going to get Devin Bush back, stuff like that.

You can try to piece the secondary together. If you look at it, Stephen Nelson makes a ton of money. They have a lot of expensive guys on this roster that you don't think about outside of Rathusberger even. But I still think the defense has a chance to be really good. I also think, you know, Keith Butler's done a solid job there. It could be time to hit the reset button there, too, to look for some new ideas and kind of refresh things because they've been really static on both sides of the ball for a while.

And I think that we've seen this happen in the past. You know, the Brams just did this where you have a head coach at the center of things, brings in a new offensive coordinator and a new defense coordinator in the same year. And I think you've seen some of the benefits from making those sorts of drastic decisions. They're hard to make sometimes. But sometimes when you're trying to usher in a new era, which the Steelers might be doing if Rathesberger moves on, I think those should be things that, they have to consider.

Yeah, reset, sort of evaluating everything across the board in the event that Rathlisberger is not coming back. That makes perfect sense to me. All right. Let's move on to the Tennessee Titans, a team that is most likely going to have to consider that reset. I would bet any money that Arthur Smith is not going to be there next year. He's interviewing for every single one of these head coaching jobs.

He's likely going to get one of them. And this is an experiment in the types of coaches that you hire because I don't know if their offense is ever going to be as good. as it was over the last two years. If they finished fourth and offensive DVOA this year, Tanna Hill finished second in EPA per play among quarterbacks. They staved off that regression that we all thought was coming. And I think they did it in large part because Arthur Smith is a wonderful offensive coach.

If you lose him, now you wonder if it's ever going to be as good as it was. And if it's not as good as it was, how do you build up other spots of your roster and other elements of your team to make up for that? And you're in that mode that teams don't want to be. where you're trying to put out all these little fires and play whack-a-mole with areas of your roster because you're not maximizing your offense. I think that is the looming concern for this team.

Absolutely. You want to look at it and say their offense was lights out the entire year. And if you can choose anything that's going to be lights out that you're bringing back, that would be it. I mean, when they signed to Anahill and Henry, it was what, a two or three-year commitment there. And so you would think that you're in good shape, especially when you do, like you said, you didn't experience that regression that many of us expected. I think it's very interesting right now, though, looking at this scheme, you know, your, your favorite scheme across the league because if, I think history has proven me right here, well, yeah, no, I mean, it's been great.

But I think this is really interesting when you look at some of the head coach openings and even a team like Tennessee, I feel like if you are a team that has the CEO type head coach or the defensive-minded head coach, you should be benefiting right now from having this Titan scheme because, I mean, those assistants are just like, you know, they're all over the league right now. You know, I know some are better than others and you have to evaluate everyone and you want a guy who can adjust. But, man, Green Bay, Tennessee, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Minnesota. Cleveland. So you're talking about like a quarter of the league.

I know they're all not the same and everyone has to put their own stamp on it. But when you're just looking at who you would want to run that offense with Tanna Hill and Henry, obviously, you do not want to change. the offensive foundation, the philosophy, the scheme there. And so it should be easier, I would think, to find your next coach in waiting there, your next play caller in waiting. That might, is probably not giving enough credit to the job that Arthur Smith has done. But I think that's something interesting to look at when you look at some of these coaches that are going to be hired, defensive-minded head coaches, even a guy like Robert Sala, right? Is he going to be able to just pluck Mike LaFleur and say, let's go, run that scheme?

I'm at because then you kind of always have to have that next play caller in mind when you have a defensive minded head coach like the Titans do and like some of these other teams might have. So Pat O'Hara is their quarterback's coach. He came from Houston where Mike Vrable was before he got this job. So that's the connection there. Todd Downing is their tight ends coach. He has play calling experience. He was in Oakland.

I know he's a really important factor in what that staff looks like and what that offense looks like. I think they'll probably get both of those guys looks. Arthur Smith was the tight ends coach. You remember that. And it's downing and O'Hara don't come from that boot action shanahan offense, but neither did Arthur Smith. And neither did Kevin Stefansky at first. So I think that it's the kind of flexibility and nimbleness you can have with some of those

guys is important. I completely agree. I think that they should try to tap into the version of their offense they had the same way they did was Smith when he was an assistant under LaFleur and he left. So I think that is something to absolutely look at. it's also funny that when you think about, you just list to all the teams that run this, and it's a quarter of the league,

it's only going to be more now, because Smith is going to get one of these jobs, Sal is probably going to get one of these jobs, and he's going to bring that offense with him. We could be at a third of the league here before it's all said and done, I think maybe even more, which I absolutely support.

So this is a team with only $6 million in salary cap space. They are built to win right now, and there are a lot of holes. Their defense has been objectively bad. I think they're going to hire a defense coordinator next year. I think Brable kind of alluded to that. Shane Bowen was their kind of de facto defense coordinator this year. He called the play as everything else.

We'll see what they end up doing there. Defense, they need a pass rusher in the worst way. I mean, that's absolutely the number one thing that they need. They finished 31st in pressure rate this season. I think they finished 28th in total pressures. They 100% need somebody in that role. They don't have a lot of avenues to find that person because of the resources. I don't know what they're going to end up doing with some of

the more expensive corners they have. Adori Jackson and Malcolm Butler both make double-digit millions of dollars when you have the 31st ranked defense in the league by DVOA might be worth considering if you want to keep doing that. So that's something they'll have to think about. Also, Corey Davis, John Hsu Smith, Anthony Firks, are all free agents. So when you're thinking about, is the offense ever going to be this good again? It's not just Arthur Smith as a consideration.

It's all of the kind of subtle pieces that allowed you to be this offense and trying to replace some of those guys as they get priced out of your roster. So these are the things that the Titans are going to have to think about as they move into 2020. It's a big, I mean, you look at their offseason last year. It was kind of low-key, a disaster. You know, like, Isaiah Wilson, if that was in a bigger market, I just, like, I looked at that like halfway through the season.

I'm like, wait, what is going on with this guy? You know, he played three snap. Did you see that they asked Vrable about it? And he was like, your guess is as good as mine. No, I did. Yes. It's not good. Yeah.

I mean, you know, he had a DUI before the season. He played three snaps. the entire year. He was on the COVID list. Then he was on the whatever one of those other, was it non-football injury, whatever it was. I mean, that was your first round pick. And, and, you know, your tackle goes down and you don't have him there. Vic Beasley, disaster. Jedevion Clowney, disaster. And so they face a big offseason here. They needed, I just feel like they needed a defensive coordinator who can do more with less. I don't know if this is a Wade Phillips team. I don't know if there's any relationship there with Mike Rable and Wade

Phillips, but like, that's the kind of guy you would need, you know, a defense, because, because like you said, they don't have an avenue to just significantly upgrade the talent on the roster. And last year, with Dean Peas, you know, the defense was not great, but the defense was, like, took a huge step backwards this year. It went from mediocre to legitimately one of the worst in the league. So I think that, to me, is a huge hire for them. And, I mean, if you're changing the defensive play caller, and then you have to replace Arthur

Smith, and now you don't have Corey. Davis and Jonu Smith, you know, they're not your best players, but they're important players. Like, this could be a team. I feel like that next year is the year that they really, they do face a lot of that regression. It's a real uphill battle. I mean, there are so many things that kind of point to that. And this year, it was, is math going to come for them? Because even if it's the same players, some of the things they did are as hard to sustain. Now, it's not just math because it's not the same players. It's not the same voices. The amount of challenges to repeat this are significantly,

that list is significantly longer heading into next year than it was this year. All right. Last one here. The Washington football team, which if you had told me before the year that we were going to do a Washington football team playoff post-mortem,

I would not have believed you. Obviously, biggest question for them is quarterback. I think that they will move on from Alex Smith based on some of the conversations I've had. Even if he's on the roster, which I still think doesn't make a lot of financial sense for them. You know, it was a great story. but I do not think he will be the starting quarterback plan for them.

I think they are going to look in every nook and cranny possible for the types of guys that are around. Cam Newton has been connected to them a little bit. I know Schefter said that was a reasonable landing point. I think that Cam, with Scott Turner and Ron Rivera, those relationships are good, but I don't know if that's the direction they're going to go in. I think that they end up going a different direction

to quarterback than Cam Newton. The question is who that guy is. I think all options are on the table for them, whether it's Matthew Stafford, you know, somebody like that. This is a team that really can go any way it wants at that position. And I think they'll consider all. I think stafford, this is a really interesting Stafford landing spot, I think. I totally agree.

You know, I mentioned him earlier in the show, but then I also wrote him down for Washington here. You know, it's not like the roster's loaded. It's not like they're going to win the Super Bowl next year. But the defensive line is very good. The defense might not be as good next year. like I know you guys were talking about earlier this week, but it's still, I feel like as a high floor with that, you know,

that they know what they're doing with that scheme, playing a lot of zone coverage and they have the guys up front. Offensively, they just need a influx of talent, but they certainly could be a team that shops in the wide receiver market, right? They could get one of these top four or five guys. And you add one of those guys with Terry McLaurin and you acquire Matthew Stafford. You have a, you know, you have an interesting team,

I feel like for the next. three years or so. And so that, that to me would be a very interesting addition for them. And that, that would be something I would look into if I were them is to take a big swing. And, you know, the division obviously was terrible this year. Is it going to be significantly better next year? You know, the Cowboys should probably be back in the mix. But certainly, it's not like you're in a division with the Chiefs or something, you know. So you can kind of turn this thing around really quickly. You made a bigger step than you thought you would make this year. If you fix the quarterback position, add a wide receiver, maybe upgrade the talent on the offensive line.

Brandon Shurf is a free agent. They have to make a decision there. But they could kind of be an interesting team, I feel like, and not just in sort of that old Washington, take a big swing. And it's terrible. And you have this year that everyone saw coming, that you're the offseason champs. But it could be like a nice sort of setup for the next few years, I feel like.

I think if they get Stafford, they become interesting. And I think the wide receiving core and the weapons is the next consideration. that this is a team thought about Amari Cooper this year and eventually decided that it didn't fit with their timeline, which is kind of funny now because if Amari Cooper was on this team with Terry McCoror and then you trade for Matthew Stafford, now it's suddenly pretty interesting. But I think in the moment it was the right choice.

I think a guy to watch with them that would make perfect sense to me is Curtis Samuel. He's hitting free agency. He was Whit Turner in Carolina. I think he's the exact type of guy they love on all of that jet motion and just the eye candy that that offense is predicated on. I think a guy like that plus another, outside option and left tackle is a huge question for them. Do they, where do they go?

And then Scherf. So those two spots along the offensive line and in the back seven, you know, Ronald Darby is a free agent. He played well for them in what was a prove it, you know, kind of stopgap contract. What sort of bodies do they add back there? They're getting Landon Collins back. So they have a lot of flexibility. And I think the quarterback is at the center of this.

But a left tackle and some weapons is the next thing. I think they kind of have to address. Yeah, Samuel is an interesting free agent because I just feel like on the wrong team, he's going to be a disaster. and on the right team, he's going to be a lot of fun. Because it sort of felt like Joe Brady unlocked him more than, you know, that Panthers coaching staff did previously before he was there. But yeah, I think they definitely obviously need some help with Terry McClure in there.

We'll see what happens. I think that what Nate and I were talking about is that you can't just say the defense is good. We need to bottle the defense. that's not a given. You can't treat that as a given, but that doesn't mean you don't have good defensive pieces. It just means that if you're thinking about the trajectory of this team,

you can't say, this is a top five defense. Let's treat that as a given and think about everything else. That is where you get into trouble. As long as you understand, we have good defensive players, let's think about where we can get better, and that is your thought process,

that's totally fine. But saying we were a top five defense this year, it's only going to get better from here. That's where fan bases and organizations even get themselves into trouble. As long as you're not thinking that way, you can be excited about the guys you have in the front floor. Yeah, it's proven year after year, right? I mean, we see it every year that it's very rare for the same defense to be in the top

three, the top five, four, a two, three year stretch. New teams emerge, teams fall off. It's just more volatile that, you know, the numbers have kind of bore that out over the year. So I agree with you, you know, having said that, you know, They should be excited about that defensive line and Chase Young in year two and all that and players adapting to the scheme. But I agree with you. You cannot build your team that way. All right, buddy.

That's all we got. I always appreciate the time. Always good to chat with you. Thank you so much for doing this. I am sure we will chat here very soon. Thank you, sir. Good being here. All right, guys.

That's all we got. Thank you so much to Peter King for coming on. Thank you to Shield for his time. We will be back tomorrow with Nate and Lindsay for our typical Thursday show, previewing the division around. So many good games. I am so excited to dig into this. Really appreciate the time. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice.

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