The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - NFL Draft check-in with Dane Brugler, Jourdan Rodrigue joins for a LA Rams Team Visit

Episode Date: November 25, 2020

First up, Robert welcomes The Athletic’s Dane Brugler to the show to talk all-things NFL Draft, including a crowded quarterback class, headlined by Trevor Lawrence, potentially transcendent non-QBs like Penei Sewell, whether loaded wide receiver classes are going to become the norm going forward or not, how the unprecedented COVID pandemic has affected this year’s draft, and much more.Plus, The Athletic’s Jourdan Rodrigue stops by in this week’s Team Visit to break down the Las Angeles Rams, including what it’s like to cover the avant-garde franchise, moving on from Wade Phillips to Brandon Staley as Defensive Coordinator, how the Aaron Donald-centric defense is evolving game by game, Jordan Fuller’s play being emblematic of the team’s longterm plans, potential weaknesses that could keep the Rams from another Super Bowl berth, and more.From Black Friday through December 4, you can subscribe to The Athletic for just $1 a month by visiting http://theathletic.com/footballshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. Jordan Rodriguez is going to be joining us a little bit later to break down the Rams. We had a fantastic conversation. Can't wait for you guys to hear it. Before that, though, I am very pleased to welcome the Athletics

NFL draft expert, Dane Bruego, to the show. Dane, how are you? I'm doing well, Robert. I tell you what, it's been awesome adding the football show to my podcast routine. So it's awesome to be on with you. Oh. I sincerely appreciate that. Every year, it feels like this is around the time where the draft becomes meaningful to people who are primarily NFL fans.

And the reason for that, I think, is because there are teams that are just completely out of it, and now it's time to start caring about next year. Sadly, my team is one of those this year. So I have had some stoked draft interest over the last couple weeks. So I always had this time of year in mind to bring you on. And I will admit, I'm coming into this with very little. draft knowledge. We talked about it a little bit on the show with Nate on Sunday night. I typically don't dig into the draft at all until the spring. I've done a little bit of watching a little bit of research for this, but for the most part, I am 25 steps behind of where you are.

I'll never catch up, but I'm even more behind on this topic than I would be with others. So let's just wade into this. And let's start with the quarterbacks. Obviously, it's a notable quarterback class for a few different reasons. Trevor Lawrence is the latest best quarterback prospect since Peyton Manning. It seems to happen every two years that we have one of these guys that takes up the mantle. Lawrence is that guy now. But there are several other names right behind him that are in play for some of these teams that absolutely could be looking for a quarterback. So if you're trying to unpack the quarterback class behind Lawrence, how would you just stack

these guys up and just give me a broad overview and then we can dig into it a little bit? Yeah, I mean, I think you hit it with Trevor Lawrence. I mean, he's probably that first quarterback since Andrew Luck, where it was just evident from his freshman year that, look, this is going to be a future number one pick for many different reasons. Great hair. That's the number one reason. Yeah, don't go Justin Herbert and do something about that. Look, the quarterback's two through four. That's going to be the interesting conversation this year.

I think Lawrence is the clear favorite. But after that, that's where it really gets interesting because you've got Ohio. States, Justin Fields, who has kind of been that next guy behind Lawrence, you know, since high school. He was the next recruit. He's been the next prospect. Lawrence got the best of him last year in the football playoff. And, you know, it's just kind of how it's been. But he's a really talented quarterback in his own right. BYU, Zach Wilson has worked his way into the mix. And then, of course, North Dakota States, Trevor, or Trey Lance. I mean, he's probably one of the more unprecedented evaluations. But that doesn't mean you don't draft him. It just means he a little bit

more of a challenge to figure out. So you like Justin Fields, I think, a little bit less than other people. You have Trey Lance ahead of him on your top 50, I believe. In my summer, over the summer, he was, I had the Trey Lance just ahead. In my updated one a couple weeks ago, I did have fields ahead of him. But no, I mean, to your point, I, he's an easy player to like talking about Justin Fields, the size, the athleticism, the accuracy. But when I study this Ohio State offense, I find myself being

more impressed with Ryan Day than Fields. And that's not a shot at Fields. It's more praise for Day in his scheme. And does that complicate the Fields evaluation? Yeah, it does. Because he's still a work in progress with the field vision, his reads.

He doesn't have top shelf arm strength. He tends to layer throws even when it's not needed. So you don't see that consistent zip. And then when a defense throws some different things at him, he goes, you know, things that go against the game plan, things that he prepared for like Indiana this past weekend, it really stands out.

So, you know, he'll hold the ball too long. Or he's not eliminating things quick enough. So he can be efficient from read one to two to three. And so how he develops mentally as a season goes goes on is really going to be put under the microscope. So I do really like fields. But it's, he's not. not the consensus number two quarterback in this class, like I think a lot of fans think. That's interesting. And when I watch them again, this is a very novice opinion, but the little bit

I've seen of him, the windows do look huge. I mean, the amount of separation created in that offense is obvious. The throw he had, the post against Nebraska, I was like, oh, shit, that was a really nice throw. But I can see what you're saying, because a lot of this stuff is to wide open guys. So when you're looking at Lance and Fields, you pretty much couldn't build two prospects with more different pedigrees and more different kinds of evaluation. Fields is at a national powerhouse he's somebody who's been in the conversation for a while. Lance is at North Dakota State. somebody who's played one game this year. So when you're kind of building the case for why Lance should be considered the number two quarterback in this class, where does that start for you?

Well, yeah, physically, he could do everything you want on the football field. His teammates call him the hardest worker on the program. So, you know, he's checking boxes with what teams want to see. And then when you get to the resume, that's where it gets a little difficult. Only 17 career starts. Now the production's been great. 46 total touchdowns, only three turnovers. But all 17 of those games came against FCS competition. So I think people are going to immediately put him forth on this list just for those reasons alone.

So it really is an unprecedented evaluation. But when you look at it, you know, yeah, he's not playing right now, but he's working in the film room right now, you know, talking to people that he's he's training with. He's working through concepts. He's developing his mind. He might actually be the most prepared of this group when it comes to interviews and indie at the Combine this year because he's doing a lot of the film work now. When teams put him on the whiteboard and watch film and ask him to break down coverages, isolate certain plays, Lance is going to be a little bit, have a little bit of a head start in that regard. So there's a lot that he just has not done yet. And

you know, there's a little bit of a leap of faith with an evaluation like this. So he's complicated, but the upside is just so intriguing. When you're talking to guys, you have a broad network of people that you're plugged in with and continue to speak with. When you're talking about the drawbacks to Lance, the things that people are concerned about, are they mostly rooted in the level of competition? Oh, sure. You know, I think he's, you know, he's playing against guys that aren't going to be, you know,

playing at the next level. And so the speed of the defense, you know, the level at which he has to, to make some of these reads. A lot of times, if that first read's not there, he's tucking and running. And last year, you know, I think North Dakota State averaged like 46 rush attempts per game. And he averaged 17 pass attempts per game.

So he played on an offense where, yeah, he wasn't asked to be the guy. He wasn't asked to put the team on his back and, you know, do it through the air. So, you know, it's just, it's a really complicated evaluation. But, you know, again, it's not a reason to not draft him, it's just a reason to be a little skeptical and then have to try and figure him out.

That's kind of unprecedented. How many attempts does he have in his career? No, it's not much. It's, what, under 400? I mean, it's, it's really, it really is an unprecedented evaluation. We can go back and point to, you know, Kyler Murray had, you know, did it not have a full resume coming out of the Big 12 and how, you know, we saw that as a difficult evaluation. This takes it to, another level. But you go back to high school for that, right? I mean, you're going to talk about his pedigree with the type of player he was. This feels like it's even almost more of a shot in the dark like considerably more. Oh yeah. And he had one game this year like you mentioned. And you could tell the first three quarters, he's knocking off the rust. He's missing some throws. But then in the fourth quarter, he was outstanding. He was like four or five. His best throw was actually the incompletion. It was a drop just on a nine route. So he is, I think, an easy, talent to like, but when you're a general manager and you have to commit a possible top

10 pick to him, that's where you really have to dig in and figure out, okay, am I ready to do this? So it's complicated, no doubt. Well, just ask Ryan Pace what it's like to spend a top five pick on a guy with a couple hundred pass attempts and see how that works out. So these are the three guys coming into this season that were consensus, not consensus top 10 picks, but the guys that people were talking about. We're thinking about this quarterback class, even if Lance is unprecedented, it's kind of a weird scenario. people were still talking about him. The one guy who's kind of thrust himself into this discussion is Zach Wilson from

BYU. And people that know what I like in quarterbacks have been nudging me for the last month and a half or so even even you've kind of been stoking the fire where it's like you should go watch this guy. So this morning I did. And it was essentially like the scene in Pulp Fiction where Umathurma gets the adrenaline needle in the heart. That's what it was like watching Zach Wilson today for me.

And I think that and I'll ask you, you have a much more nuanced opinion than I do. It's easy to see why people would fall in love with him. The traits are undeniable. He's exciting. So if you were trying to kind of focus on one or two things, it's really thrust him into this top four quarterback discussion, turn him into a potential top 10 pick.

What would you kind of hone in on? Yeah, I think it boils down to accuracy and then just the ability to work off platform. I think those two things really stand out. And it's not like Wilson hasn't come out of nowhere. I mean, he put himself on the radar as a freshman at BYU. And then last year's a sophomore, he was hurt, he was banged up, he didn't play as consistent. So it's not, I mean, it's kind of, he's almost like this year's burrow in that respect, where, you know, there was things to like.

But this year, he's going from a mid-rounder to all of a sudden, you're going to consider him with a top 10 pick. He's right there in that QB2 conversation in this class. And I think it really just comes down to the natural accuracy. And it's both in the pocket and then off platform. He's a quick decision maker. He delivers with Zip on the move. And look, I'm not going to compare him to Mahomes as players. But stylistically, there are some similarities with the way that they scrambled to throw,

the way they alter their arm angles. They've got that whip delivery. You know, the obvious concern with Wilson is kind of going back to the Tray Lance evaluation is the level of competition. BYU, they were actually slated to play a murderer's row. scheduled this year. But then COVID hit. They lost all of their power five opponents. And they had a patch together, you know, something just to get a guy or teams on the schedule. And so Wilson, he's passed every test so far, but it's been mostly, it's been all a group of five opponents.

He's got one more important game coming up against San Diego State, which might be the toughest defense of the year that he'll face. But when you watch his BYU offense, you see a little bit of everything, which is, you know, I think gives you some optimism. He's underst. center at times. There's some option plays. You'll see heavy McVeigh, Andy Reed influences. So, you know, with the mobility, the accuracy, you know, those are the two main takeaways with Wilson. I think he'd be a perfect fit with Shanahan and San Francisco. I think that would just fit like a glove. But I mean, I think that would require a trade. Just like your bears, I think you would require a trade up to make it happen. So we're going to talk about teams in a second.

I want to talk about Wilson just briefly here. I think that, you know, you know, You'd say Mahomes. The guy he reminds me of stylistically, and I know that this will come with 25 caveats is Rogers. Because some of the throws he makes, the throw he had against Western Kentucky, which was in completion, but it was about a 55-yard throw in the air,

and he does it while moving straight at the line of scrimmage. It's incredibly difficult to do. And he uses his lower body to steady himself and create balance in a lot of the ways that Rogers does. It's really cool to see his ability to do that. And it allows him to steady his body and deliver balls accurately while moving that way. And very similar to the way that Rogers has done it.

It was almost like a mere image. That was cool to see. And I think that the number one thing that stands out to me beside the just crazy armed talent that he does have is his ability to place throws in the red zone. I think that their efficiency this year is something like 90% down there. They're scoring touchdowns at an absurd rate.

And he contributes a lot to that. One, his ability to scramble. He makes plays with his legs. He's going to take it if it's not there. But he doesn't look to, run, which I think is a really key distinction. And his ball placement, when there's guys sitting down in the middle of the field, he's going just to the side of his safety.

He's going low and away when he needs to. That really jumped out to me. The one thing, and I agree with you about the play action stuff, seeing him turn his back to the defense, whether it's under center or in pistol, that comforts me as a unimaginative football thinker in a way that it probably shouldn't have to. But the one thing I'll say, outside of that throw against Western Kentucky, maybe a couple more scattered throws in the three games I watch or four games. I don't think I saw him climb the pocket more than two or three times. His awareness in that area would frighten me a little bit

because it seems like he's going left to right a little bit too often. He took a couple bad sacks that I saw and you compared him to Burrow and I think that they're almost complete opposite players where with Burrow you're betting all on feel and all on intangibles and with Wilson you're almost betting all on physical talent. And I just think that's such an interesting contrast. But you mentioned that it would take the Niners possibly trading up or the team like the Bears trading up. So let's talk about that top five area right now.

So the Jets, if they get the number one pick, not a concern. The Bengals are. So Jacksonville is at two. Huge win for the Jags this week with Washington beating the Bengals and knocking them down a peg. So it looks like the Jags are just cruising toward that number two pick. So how do you see that top five kind of like sifting out? and what's your best guess about how high those four quarterbacks could end up going?

Yeah, it's going to be really interesting. It might be similar to, you know, the Baker-Mayfield, Sam Darnold year when we had, what, four quarterbacks go in the top 10 and then, you know, Lamar Jackson later in the first round. It could be that situation where we, the way it's shaping up with the quarterback needy teams, obviously there's still a lot that has to happen with, you know, who's going to to get fired, which coaches are going to move around. That's going to play a factor on all of this.

But the Jaguar is sitting there at two. It'd be awfully tough for them to pass on one of these quarterbacks. You have to take a shot. And so is that going to be Justin Fields? Is that going to be Wilson? It's really too early to say, but I mean, it would be hard pressed to say it's not going to be one of those two guys at this point. And then you have the Washington football team sitting there with an unsettled

quarterback situation. Do they take the guy that the jaguars don't, if that's how it plays out? And then you have a really interesting mix of teams that are maybe just outside the top seven or eight picks who could look to trade up. You know, a team like the Falcons, the Panthers, the Bears, the Bears. I mean, there's several teams, probably a handful of teams that maybe if they see one of those quarterbacks fall to seven, eight, nine, maybe it's worth taking a leap up to make sure they secure them. it's really a muddled group right now. And like I said, it's not like I think we're going to see this play out. And there's going to be a defined two, three, four quarterbacks in this class.

It will be, there will be no consensus. Some teams will like. I have beholder type stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Some teams will prefer Wilson. So I really think that it's just going to be a muddled group. Even when we get closer, even when we're a week out, I don't think there's going to be a

consensus. I mean, that 2018 class was kind of a similar thing, where some teams like Donald Moore, some teams like Baker Moore. So it was a little bit muddled when it came to the actual stacking of them. I check tankathon every single day now as a Bears fan. I literally check it every single day. And you look at it and I think that that group after the Jets and the Jags is going to be fascinating to watch. Because I think if Washington is in that top five and they like those guys, they absolutely should take one of them.

Because this is going to be their chance to really put the right quarterback in place. Let's move forward. The group that's going to be fascinating to me is the Atlanta, Carolina, Carolina, Detroit kind of second. of this because with Atlanta and Detroit, San Francisco. New England and San Francisco, those teams need a quarterback. So for them, I think it's going to depend on whether or not the teams that don't necessarily need one want one. Does Carolina like one of these guys enough to say, Teddy, thank you very much for your

service. We're actually going to start with our quarterback of the future now. Does Atlanta say, all right, new regime, it's time to start over. If they clear house in Detroit, do they think something similar? So that's going to be the biggest question is these teams kind of on the fence about their future at quarterback, which direction do they go? Because if those teams, if that collection of them in that right now eight to kind of 12 range of the draft don't need a quarterback, the sky is open for teams like New England and San Francisco who potentially could. The fourth one of these guys that gets past the Jets, Jags in Washington, he could be sitting there at the back half of the top 10 and you're just gifted something. So I think that's definitely going to be the biggest question.

Yeah, it's going to be what commands the draft talk leading up to the actual draft. Because some of these teams, you know, Atlanta and Carolina, for example, their quarterback situations are different because Matt Ryan, not an easy quarterback to get rid of right now. Or, you know, what are you going to do with it? Where Teddy Bridgewater, it's a little easier to move on from him. Or at the very least, he's your bridge quarterback. if you bring in a trail lance and he's not easy,

you know, it's easier to let him learn for a year. That would be my assumption because I think that if you're trying to build culture, moving on from a guy that everyone seems to like and has played well for you, I think is a weird message to send. You can afford to keep him on the roster and bring in a guy that's going to be, because his deal is really only a two-year deal. So I think that would make a ton of sense. But with the other guys, you're right.

And I know we got more questions to get to, but let me ask you this. With the success we're seeing from Borough to Herbert, do you think that's going to skew what teams expect from these top 10 quarterbacks? I know, you know, we have so much recency, you know, memory when it comes to the NFL. And I just feel like we could maybe be looking at a team hoping these guys turn out to be one of these three rookies that we've had this year. And they might end up being disappointed when they realize they need. need more time to learn and develop.

I think I've always been of this opinion. I've talked to coaches about this and people are split on the best way to handle them. I think unless you're putting your guy actively in harm's way, where he's going to develop scar tissue that affects the rest of his career, allowing him to get as many reps as possible is important. Because the hidden side of this is that it's not just reps in the games. If you're not the number one quarterback, you're not getting reps with the ones in practice every single day.

So your development is going to be stunted, not just because you're not seeing what it's like in live action, but it's because you're not getting as much coaching as possible during the week. So I think that's a huge consideration. So I think that if I were running a team and I felt like my offensive line was good enough and we could debate whether the Bengals was, I would put my guy in there because I think that's important. So you have to be patient in what you expect from him.

I don't think you can expect it to be great right away. I think you have to understand this is a long-term plan, even if there are some growing pains. It's worth having him in the game because this is the best way to get the most out of my quarterback for the next five years. That makes sense. All right. So we talk about the quarterbacks that could be going in the top five. And I think that all of the quarterback and edie teams in that area are going to make one other team extremely happy. And it seems like there are a couple potential stars in that top five group?

In your mind, are there any truly transcendent non-quarterbacks in this class? in the same way we've seen guys like a Chase Young, like a Nick Bosa over the last couple years. Yeah, I think there's a good chance that Oregon left tackle, Pena Soule ends up being that guy. It's similar to... Music to my ears. Yeah, similar to Trevor Lawrence,

where you just knew right away he was going to be a future top pick. I mean, that's what we saw with Sewell coming out of high school. He started right away for the ducks. You know, he was, he opted out of this season, but freshman and sophomore years, he allowed only one sack. And Mario Cristobal, Oregon's head coach, flat out called him the best football player he's ever been around. And he's still very young.

He's going to be a 20-year-old rookie when the NFL season kicks off next fall. Man. He was actually born a few weeks before Tom Brady made his first NFL pass, which is just crazy to think about. I'm going to go sit somewhere and think for a while. That's so depressing. I know. It is. It is. But because he's so young, there's still room to improve.

body angles, his timing. You want to see him become a more consistent finisher. But there's so much about him that cannot be taught. Awesome big man balance, which is why I love Tristan Worf's coming out of Iowa last year. Ressler, man. Yeah, really mobile player. Those high school wrestlers, the balance on those high school wrestlers,

it's real. They stay centered and they know how to use their hands. It really is impressive. But he's also instinctive too, where he can make those split-second reads. And he also has the body twitch that allows him to execute. So I think Pena Sewell is an immediate NFL starter. And with the way the draft order looks like it's shaping up,

I mean, he looks like a future Cincinnati Bengal. That would be huge. I mean, if they could end up doing that, and we'll see what happens with Dallas. Because if Dallas is in front of them in the draft, you 100% could say this is the successor to Tyron Smith. We're taking another 20-year-old left tackle. He's going to be a block of granite for the next 10 years.

in the same way that Smith was. Who would you compare Sewell to? I was watching him a little bit today. And I got some like, just in terms of the Twitter talking about like Trent Williams vibes just and how they move. But I don't think he's that mean or powerful. I don't know if you like doing comps or not. But I just, I'm always, that's, in my mind always starts going when I watch these guys.

No, I actually, that's the same one, same comp I had because, but just like any comp, there's, you know, you have to modify it because he's not quite as big. He's not as powerful. he doesn't have that finishing toughness to him. Exactly. He needs to get a little meaner. There's no doubt about it. But yeah, just the body control that he has,

the ability to play through his hips and the lower body matching what the upper body's doing. And it's everything being on schedule and in unison. Just really impressive for a player that age. Movement skills in the run game too. I mean, you talk about watching Zach Wilson and Shanahan's scheme. I could just see some of the ways that a team like that uses their left tackle, whether it's pulling, getting out on screens, scoop locking on zone

running plays. He just seems to really be able to do some stuff for you. He can be a weaponized player in that area, which I always like when I'm watching offensive line, because obviously the pass blocking is most important. And you want him to be a comfortable mover and stuff like that. But it's always fun when you're like, oh, what short is, how can I scheme shit up to like get this guy on somebody and create some space? So as I look at the rest of your top 10 here, a couple things that makes sense. Patrick Sartan Jr. Patrick Stanton's second as a corner from Alabama. Apparently got a press man guy. That top five pick written all over that

resume. Guys like Jemar Chase, who we've seen a lot of at LSU, he's going to be a very potential star in the league. Michael Parsons jumps out to me because I've tried to check myself recently. We actually talked about this with Jordan a little bit later, about offball linebacker value and what they can really bring. So you have him at five on your top 50. What about him as an offball linebacker do you think makes him worthy of a top five pick or is it makes him a top five player in this class? Yeah.

Michael Parsons can do pretty much everything that you want. He's 6.3, 245 pounds. And it's interesting because he was actually a pass rusher and a running back in high school. So he changed positions when he got to Penn State. He learned how to play linebackers a freshman. And then last year as a sophomore, that's when he really emerged as one of the best linebackers in the country at 109 tackles, 14 tackles for loss. You saw him get better every single game And he played out of his mind in the bowl game against Memphis

So it's too bad we didn't get a chance to see him This year kind of continued that development He was one of those opt-outs which You know it kind of complicates things a little bit But he's an impressive size speed strength athlete With the ball hunting awareness The vision where he can make plays or some run in the past Now can he get better with his anticipation and coverage

his take-on technique downhill, no question. But he has just the natural traits at that size, the athleticism to be a three-down player and really can be a cornerstone of an NFL defense. But I think the way you set it up, I think it's one of the biggest questions with Blanca Parsons. Because is he one of the top talents in this class? Absolutely.

But not every team is going to be comfortable drafting an off-ball linebacker, top five, top seven, maybe even top 10. So he won't be for everybody. He's not a top 10 lock. But when you're just talking about the top talents in this class, he's definitely one of those guys that comes to mind. So Parsons opted out,

Sue opted out. This is obviously a profoundly strange season, both for you, I'm sure, and for the teams trying to evaluate these guys. What would you say is the biggest difference in the process for teams for you this year compared to other years? Well, yeah, there's, it's just an unprecedented situation, obviously.

And, you know, it's, you, you don't want to accuse a player of quitting his team. You know, because there's obviously so much that goes into a decision like this. You know, a guy like Caleb Farley, he lost his mom. And not to COVID, but, you know, the thought of losing another family member is something that, you know, he talked about when he talked about his decision. Right now, we're having some players opt out midseason. You know, their teams out of it. And so they're choosing to opt out and just start preparing for the NFL draft. So it really is, you know, the question becomes, is this going to be the new trend with a lot of these players?

Now, I think some of these guys, like Jamar Chase from LSU, he didn't need to take another NFL or another college snap for you to know exactly who he is. You know, but a guy like Michael Parsons, even though still going to be in the top half of round one, it would have been nice to figure out who he is a little bit more with his development. Gregory Rousseau from Miami, one of the top past rushers in this class. As a richer freshman last year, he lit it up.

Yeah, he, well, and that length that he brings can be both a pro and a con for him. He was a wide receiver and defensive back in high school, and he finally outgrew those positions. He's still new to the defensive end position. He's still figuring things out. And so, you know, trying to figure out where he is in his development is a little bit tougher.

So, yeah, doubt the opt-outs this year make things difficult. And then, you know, when I talk with guys around the league, scouts that are trying to figure out this class, something else they point to is how everybody in college right now has an extra year of eligibility. So it really, even the seniors. So it really makes it tough to figure out, okay, is this guy going to go back to school? Is he going to come out? You know, there's so many players they have to evaluate. And a lot of these guys, they might end up going back to school because they have that extra year of eligibility and they can wait if they want to.

So you mentioned Chase and I think that this past catching class looks very deep. You have a ton of guys up near the top of your board. And every pass catching group, there's different flavors. And I've come to know these guys a little bit. It feels like, you know, J.win Waddle is just a burner in the same way that you're going to have guys that can take the top off. His teammate at Alabama, Devante Smith apparently is a guy that just all production, all the time. So when you're thinking about the different kinds of guys available, who are your

favorites and, you know, what sort of flavor do you think they're going to give a team that's looking to add a pass catcher? Well, yeah, Jamar Chase, I think has to be at the top. You know, he's, like I said, I don't think we needed to see any more from him as an opt-out. Last year was such a special year for him, setting so many different SEC records. It plays with that my ball mentality. That's the biggest thing with him. He's almost like a slightly smaller Larry Fitzgerald in that way. No, he's not going to run a 4-3. He's 6 foot 2-10, not the biggest guy, but he creates separation with that gear-changing acceleration that he has.

And then he's an elite finisher. Equal parts, competitive toughness, equal parts, playmaking skills. I really think he could be a number one for an NFL offense. And then, yeah, you mentioned two Alabama guys. They're right up there as well. Jalen Waddle, he broke his ankle in October. That's not going to stop a team from drafting him very early.

He's just a special athlete. Sudden movement. the acceleration to be a scheme versatile receiver. The last two years, he has four receptions of over 75 yards. Just a silly player. And he's going to help you on special teams as well as a return man. And then Devonte Smith, look, on paper, he shouldn't be anywhere near the first round. 175 pounds, 4 or 5 speed.

But when you watch the tape, he gives you Marvin Harrison type of vibes. And trust me, I know that science hyperbolic because we're talking about Hall of Famer here, but he's got elite ball skills, dynamic quickness, explosive route runner, just an easy player to like. So this wide receiver class, it really is deep. You got Terris Marshall from LSU, who was kind of that third receiver last year with Chase and Justin Jefferson, but he had 13 touchdowns last year. This year as a number one, he's really stepping up, even with some shaky quarterback played down there in LSU. You got Chris Olive at Ohio State, more of a technically refined, reliable receiver. Amon St. Brown from USC.

Outstanding toughness. He's scheme proof. Cadarius Tony, more of a gadget player, but he's fun to watch because his elusiveness is just special. And then really, I mean, I have to bring him up because I think he belongs in this conversation. Even though he's technically a tight end, that's Florida's Kyle Pitts, who might as well be a wide receiver. He's 6-6-240, but he moves like a wide out. He's got that twitchy frame, Crazy body control. The past catching skills are pretty close to elite. Quick adjustments, strong hands, great focus.

A little limited as a blocker, but he'll get in the way, get the job done. But you're drafting him for what you can do down the field. He is a dangerous guy in single coverage. That's really why he's going to be considered in the top 15 picks. One of the things that jumped out to me in the little bit that I've watched him, I really like how he uses his hands. He uses his hands in really subtle ways to create separation. there was a catch he had down the left sideline.

I can't remember what game it was. It was a deep throw as an out and up. And he just hit a little swim on the up. Again, just create that little tiny bit of separation going up the sideline. And in the red zone, he does it really well. Just little swim arm overs. Again, subtle stuff to get himself open. I think at that position, that's really important.

And speaking of subtlety, the guy who you did not mention that I could already tell it's going to be my dude in all of this is Rashad Bateman. I love some of the little things he does. Like when you said acceleration, The way he changes speeds and what I've watched from him, it reminds me of what Keenan Allen does in some of those moments where it's not going to be a burner, but because he can stop and start.

And his little sticks at the end of routes to create just a little bit of separation at the top of stuff jumps out to me for a young guy. He's somebody that I've watched a little bit because somebody told me I'd like him, and I do. Again, just not somebody that's going to probably jump off the tape at the combine and his probably not going to run that well, but just the way he plays the position,

I really like some of the nuances to it. Yeah, Baitman's easy to like because of that route savvy. And like you said, he's probably going to run in the high four-fives. But plenty of receivers have shown you don't need to be a four-three athlete to be productive at the position. And yeah, there are definitely a lot to like about Bateman. I think he's in that late first-round conversation right now.

Works a lot out of the slot. But he knows how to manipulate coverage just with his route movements, his body movements. It's pretty advanced stuff for the college level. So talking about this class, and this is something I wrote about before this year's draft, and I'm curious about your thoughts. Do you think these loaded receiver classes

are just going to become the norm now? I've always, people have talked to and just the conversations that I've had about it recently, it makes sense, right? I mean, teams are throwing the ball more than ever in college.

They're throwing the ball more than ever at every single level. I mean, you have these guys at the opening playing seven on seven against each other trying to work on releases when they're like 15 years old in a way they never had to before. And I think that it's going to make,

I don't know if it's going to make the best receivers better, but I do think it's going to give you the ability to find guys in the third round in ways you might not have been able to in years past. So that's what we saw from this year's class. Is the 2021 class similar in that way? And do you think this is going to be something we see more consistently? Oh, yeah, I do. I agree with everything you said. As we see these college offenses becoming more and more dependent on creating plays through the air, we're seeing receivers emerge as projected NFL weapons. And so, yeah, I do think it's going to be the norm where not only are going to see receivers drafted early, but quite often, because teams are looking to get more explosive. And players who can stress the defense at all levels, whether the play is designed to go that way or not, you know, those are the type of explosive players NFL teams want. Last year, we set a record with 13 receivers drafted in the first two rounds. I don't think this class is going to break that, but it could come close because this group does have some play. at the position.

I mean, just think about the depth of guys that are contributing already. Chase Claypool looks like a star. Justin Jefferson is the guy you got the back half of the first round. He looks like one of the best receivers in the NFL. And I just, it's tempting to say that that's just going to continue. And often when you have those, they are a blip. But I just, I'm not sure it is with this position. I really do think their trajectory is headed in a different way.

So receiver is a deep group in this class. Any other positions that jump out to you, if you're a team like, I know you and I talked about this, if you're the charter. and you need a center in the second round, for example. Are there types of positions that you think in the second, third round, you're going to be able to find day one starters in this class? Yeah, I think so. I think, you know, wide receiver, which we talked about,

but tackle, corner, edge, I think all three of those positions, which, you know, obviously three important positions on a roster. Offensive tackle, it's funny because ironically, last year it was where we had five stud tackles taken in the top 20 picks. This year, Sewell might be the only tackle in the top 20, but that late first into day two, there's going to be a lot of flawed, but talented tackles taken in that range. That worries me. That worries me.

It's an interesting group. And, you know, Rishon Slater from Northwestern, he has under 33-inch arms, but he's my OT2 in this class. I love Rishon Slater. Coordinated feet, he understands leverage. I love the way he'll lock up rushers before they can get going. He was one of the few blockers who found success against Chase Young last year at the college level. So, Rashon Slater, just a big-time player. Virginia Tech's Christian Derisaw, he's put himself in that, maybe that late first-round mix.

Alex Leatherwood, he's been a rock left tackle for Alabama. Might be a better guard prospect, but some teams will keep him at tackle. Jalen Mayfield at Michigan moves well for a big man. And he looks dominant when he taps into that power. And then this senior, there's a really interesting group of seniors. Liam Eichenberg at Notre Dame. Not much flash to his game, but he just executes, gets a job done. Oklahoma States, Tevin Jenkins, a little bit of a wastebender,

but he'll manhandle defenders with those heavy hands once he locks on. He'll bounce him around the field. And then you'll like this one. Maybe the most intriguing tackle of the group. Northern Iowa Spencer Brown. He played eight-man football in high school. Wow. In Iowa.

And he was a tight end. and a defensive lineman. He goes to Northern Iowa, he puts on almost 100 pounds, and becomes a tackle who can mirror in space, really embraces the physicality of the position, obviously still learning the position. But if he performs well down in Mobile at the Senior Bowl, don't be surprised when Spencer Brown starts to heat up a little bit

and becomes a riser. Now I got to go watch Spencer Brown and Roshan Slater tape for the rest of my day. I had shit to do tonight, but apparently I don't anymore. Oh, you're complaining like you won't enjoy it. Come on. You know I will. Slater actually does sound like my kind of guy. When you said talented but flawed,

I thought you meant quick feet guys that don't know what they're doing. Give me a tackle with a little bit less length that understands angles over a guy who is nimble but can't play any single day of the week. So I'll be excited to watch him. Dane, really appreciate the time, man. Always good to talk to you. I'm sure we'll be talking to you more as the draft gets closer. Enjoy the holiday this week. We'll catch up soon.

You too. Thank you, Robert. All right. It's time for this week's team visit. I'm very excited to talk about this team. It's one we hit on a lot on this show because it's a fun team for football nerds. The seven and three Los Angeles Rams very much in play for the one seat in the NFC. This team is second in EPA per play on defense, eighth and DVOA, fifth and DVOA on offense,

one of three teams in the top 10 in both categories. They're a ready-made contender, and I'm very excited to talk about them with one of my favorite athletic writers. She's done a fantastic job all year. She's also the co-host of the 11 personnel podcast covering all things Rams. Jordan Roderie Jordan. How are you? Doing well. I'm doing well.

A little sleepy Tuesday morning, you know. Yeah, it's I'm on the East Coast now and you're on the West Coast. Time zones are not my strength. I have no idea what time it is anywhere. And it's only become more confusing. We've known each other for a while. I have a vivid memory of just sweating profusely in Spartanburg standing next to you on the sideline while you cover the Panthers during training camp.

I recall that. Yes, I recall that. Mostly the sweat. Mostly remember the sweat. It's training camp in the middle of South Carolina and the beating down heat is not fun. But you covered the Panthers for several years. And then now this is your first year covering the Rams. And I think that that's interesting.

That's where I want to start because we talk about them all the time on this podcast. It's no surprise and it's not a secret that Nate and I love talking about them because the Rams are one of those teams where there's something for everybody. The stateners like the Rams because they're pushing edges with some of the motion and with play out. the film nerds like the Rams because there's tons of little wrinkles. So I wanted to ask you as someone coming to this team with fresh eyes this year, when someone asks you a friend of yours, whoever, what's it like to cover the Rams?

What is your response to them? First, I tell them I don't recommend moving across the country in a pandemic. But it was great landing spot for me because I grew up out west. And so what I tell people first when they ask me what it's like is, I learn something new every week covering this team. And as a writer, you know, I try to combine just all of the knowledge-seeking that I can with the pieces that I put out for the athletic Los Angeles and for the athletic NFL because you can discover so many things about the nuances of football,

of the analytics as it pertains to football, of the mathematical studies, of the film studies, of the personality studies as it pertains to football, I think by peeling apart this roster, this coaching staff, this front office, you know, all the way up to, you know, CEO Kevin Demoff, you know, you can really get into a lot of nitty gritty about the sociology, the psychology, the X's and O's, like everything. And so I, that was a big draw for me in coming out here, not just coming back home to the West Coast, but also covering a team that I was going to learn something from every week and then sharing that knowledge, hopefully, with a group of real.

And so that's what I've found is for any kind of quote unquote nerd there is, that's what I've found this team to be. Is it sort of satisfies any type of interest you might have in how football works? And I'm really, I tell people this all the time that I'm so corny because, and I probably sound a little bit like Sean McVeigh, because I'm so process oriented, right? I love process. And you guys can people on Twitter, you can roast me for that if you want. I'm open to it.

But I'm so, I'm so into process and the how of things and the why of things. And you really, really get a good understanding of peeling back those layers with this team because they tend to show their work. And I think that's really interesting. It's great. And I think that that's one of those things when you hear or when you talk to Sean McBay about football, which both of you and I have done, it, it seeps through. It's impossible for him to contain how interested he is in it.

And then it kind of rubs off and you get it both ways. And it's this transaction that I've always really appreciated. It's a football laboratory there in a way that it's not in some other places. They're always trying to push things and find new little wrinkles. So when you say you learn something new every week, what do you think this season is the most surprising thing that you've learned? Just something about football you'd never considered. I'm kind of putting you on the spot here, but I thought your answer was interesting. I don't know that I've never considered impossibilities in football.

I think that something refreshing is to be in a space where impossibilities in football are not considered as an entire. organization. If that makes sense, I mean, we joke about the salary cap and how that doesn't exist here. We joke about how, you know, traditionalists and sort of your standard football logic sometimes doesn't apply here. We joke about, you know, the types of concepts and design and scheme and personnel and people he brings into the building and people who, you know, are sort of in the, in the orbit of the building. And it's just all kind of the same mental space is that impossibilities in football don't exist. And so you come from covering a league and I think a team that was a little bit more on the traditionalist side of what football tended to be in its cyclical nature for years and

years and years and I jump three time zones over and am covering a team now that doesn't And about 20 years into the future. It's roots in, yeah, it's time travel. Yeah. It's a team that its roots are in those fundamentals, but it also doesn't believe that you need to stick with those things to be successful. And it believes in pushing boundaries. And that's, you know, from what you see on the field all the way throughout the front

office and constantly sort of troubleshooting and self-scouting and bringing in dissenting voices and things like that. because it keeps up with the same theme that you don't think of things as an impossibility within the structure of the game. Instead, you say, how can we change the structure of the game? It's always why not with them? Nate and I have talked about them. They see, it's almost that scene from Goodwill Hunting where he's talking about how when Mozart saw a piano, he just saw endless possibilities. I think when Sean McVeigh looks at a football field, that's what he sees. He just sees it differently than some other people do it. Big comparison there, Robert, big time comparison

to Mozart. Wow, that's a classical. Well, that was sticking out to me. Some people, when you look at a football field, you see a bunch of grass. Some people, when they look at a piano, they see some keys and some wood. He sees something different. He does. He doesn't see confines of hash marks and things like that. He sees, okay, what can I create within this space? And how can I sprint up and down the sideline as I do it?

He's getting a good workout. What would you say is the most surprising thing you've realized about him, just kind of working with him more closely? closely every single day. Well, he would want me to say that he's funnier than people think he is, but I'm not going to, I'm not quite, I'm not giving him that credit yet. I'll continue to, to gather the data on that one. But about Sean, I don't know. I think he is pretty much what I expected him to be. And I mean that in a good way, because you, you get this sense of someone who is innovative, yes, has sort of this background and learning a bunch of different types of the how

of football and the why of football. And he brings it so forward into his process as not just, you know, a coach, but as a CEO of the team. I think what I was a little bit surprised by, you know, when you think of the structure of a staff and front office was how much he wanted to bring in certain people who might disagree with him or wants to bring in people who push him to not sort of settle into complacency as we see so many young coaches can do early, especially, you know, the first five, 10 years of their career. And so that's what you sort of are seeing this year. That was, I think, a surprise to a lot of people when some of these names were floated. I know we'll get to that later. But bringing in people who argue with him when they need

to, who compete with him when they need to, you know, sometimes when you see in football in general, the ego is not put aside in that manner. But to me, it's a very egosless building, and that sort of permeates throughout the entire staff, because there's a sense of functional conflict at times when it gets to a broader understanding of the topic at hand and the problem at hand. Functional disagreement and functional conflict of troubleshooting each other and challenging each other to come up with the correct answer. And you sort of see that big picture with, especially how his defense is working at this point. The other thing I would say is someone who doesn't cover him all the time,

but something that always jars me whenever I am having to interact with him or deal with him, transcribing Sean McVeigh is the worst experience in the world when it comes to NFL journalism. You ask him one question. He talks for three and a half minutes and there are 10,000 words in that three and a half minute answer because he talks so fast. You think that wouldn't be a thing, but it does cut into workflow. So it's something I'm sure you've had to deal with. But let's get into the defense because I think that's the biggest change with this team. Obviously, the offense, for all of its wrinkles and for all of the evolution, it's subtle.

We've seen this system in place for the most part for the last few years. They've added to it and they've done a few different things to kind of stay ahead of the curve. But the defense is wholly new in terms of a lot of the personnel and the person who's running it. So you wrote a story this offseason about Brandon Staley, their defensive coordinator, being the end result of this search for Sean McVeigh's own Sean McVe on that side of the ball. So just walk me through the thought process for why they wanted to move. move on from Wade Phillips, what they were looking for and why Brandon Staley ended up becoming that person. Yeah. So, you know, anyone you talked to in the building, so much respect for Wade Phillips

and what he obviously is accomplished. And then also how he helped bring in a really solid foundation. If you think of Sean McVeigh, rebuilding the Rams, the people in the front office rebuilding the Rams, you know, once they moved back to Los Angeles, Wade Phillips was such a core foundational piece in making sure that they got started off on the right foot. But, It kind of goes back to what I said before. Sean McVeigh, at a certain point, you know, it comes time for him to build a staff almost more so in his image. And so when people were deciding, you know, okay, what are we going to do? Are we moving on from, you know, this long time, just historically successful defensive coordinator?

What does the great unknown look like? And they thought, well, we want to sit Sean in a room and tell him to find his own Sean McVeigh, somebody who will really push boundaries and really be progressive-minded in terms of how you can challenge each other, how defenses change subtly, but also not at all, and how defenses are now sort of forced to adjust in a more rapid rate than ever before because of the way that offenses are progressivizing throughout the league. And so, Sean, of course, every good coach has a list of people just in case. and Sean and Brandon had been sort of quietly stalking each other from afar for several years at that point. So much so that Brandon joke to me that. Staley was on that Bram's, Staley was on that Bear's staff that kind of gave McVeigh trouble back then.

And clearly they had crossed paths or been watching each other in that regard. But yeah, that stuck out to me, the fact that for whatever reason, they just been keeping track of one another from afar for the last couple years like that. Yeah. And a big connector was Chris Shula, who is like, Sean McVeigh's right-hand man on the defensive side. And they had worked together cross-pads at John Carroll University, which is like such a powerhouse pipeline for coaches and personnel people as well.

And so, you know, Sean went back and did this deep analysis of Brandon and his tendencies. And then, you know, Brandon had studied Sean for so long and even, you know, all the way back when he was, you know, kind of a lowly staffer. And they had always heard of each other and to the point where Brandon was joking, like, thought when he got into the Sean's car the morning of the interview at 4.30 in the morning, he thought of joking, hey, man, I thought you would have had a restraining order out on me by now because of how much I know about you. And it was just really kind of, they hit it off from there. The first day they met, you know, it was the entire day they described went by and 12 hour a day

went by in like two minutes for them. And they were just talking football and philosophy. And what they started realizing is they were challenging each other and troubleshooting. different things and being very honest with each other. And the things that Brandon Staley was going to bring in, especially not necessarily after looking at the last couple years of the Rams defense, but going back and looking at where some of these players were successful in their college days and how different collegiate concepts now have been introduced more so into the NFL and how defenses have to adjust to counter that they're already doing so at a college level and how that trickle up effect now has to become more rapidly adjusted to by defenses. And it just sounded like the two

totally geeked out all day. So, and it just was really an interesting progression from there. So it, you know, it was such a hard decision for them to move on to Wade. But once Sean thought, when Sean was kind of handed that autonomy and said, all right, now this is going to be one of the most important hires that you make because this is now you're in your second act, your post-super Bowl act, where you're trying to keep your window open and sustain your success, this is going to be such an important hire for you because this is the person who is going to be probably one of the most solid branches on your coaching tree at this point. This is a legacy hire as well as a sustained success hire and go find you, but on the defensive side. And I think that beyond the

innovation and beyond just the energy that they both seem to bring in this maniacal interest in football, all. The problem solving aspect sticks out. And one of the things that it's been really fun to watch over the course of this season is them trying to find answers up front. Because I think beyond Donald, there were questions about how they would develop a fash rush on this team. So you watch from the beginning of the season through now and you just see them chip away. And it's kind of the same process of watching McVeigh try to find answers on offense where it's like,

okay, we have Donald in the middle. And he's this nucleus and this force we can have everything revolve around. Let's throw some different bodies. at it. Let's throw some different stunts at it. You almost see the experiment happening in real time. And that's why this team is so fun to watch. I'm thinking about the sack that Leonard Floyd had, one of them

against Seattle, where they line up with Donald does a three technique on the defense's left side. He comes all the way across the center to create essentially a two-on-one against the right tackle. And you can just see them developing these pressures and see Staley's mind working as all of that stuff kind of gets wrinkled

in. And that's what's been really fun about this defense is it is kind of sent from the future with some of the college stuff that they're doing. But it's also evolving game by game. And it's just been such a cool thing as a football fan to watch that happen. Yeah, that's what I think I like best about covering this team this year. I think, you know, being, cutting, sort of cutting my teeth as an NFL journalist and on a Ron Rivera led staff, you know, defense, defense, defense, defense, oh my God, defense, right? And and it's just like, that was just it, right? And so to be able to see how interesting and shape-shifting and ever-evolving a defense can be is so fascinating to me.

And it kind of goes back to what I said before is something that I think is so cool is how this staff does show their work. And you can actually see game over game. As you mentioned, Brandon's Daly scheme evolving. You know, first it's Troy Hill and at the stars. They're slowly introducing what all the other pieces have to do around that star position. And then it's Jalen Ramsey coming in, and now this is the iteration of what we know it to be. And then he's pulling back out as he's sort of being sticky with other guys.

And then against Mike Evans, he's inside and outside. And all of the other pieces revolve around and what do we do with the safeties? And when do we introduce these extra defensive back packages? And it all, like you said, revolves around Aaron Donald as the sort of center of this universe. But it just, that's what it is. It's constantly revolving. And it reminds me of one of those little solar system mobiles that you hang over a crib. It's just constantly revolving.

And the centerpiece is obviously Aaron Donald. But it also in a way, and I know we talk about this a lot, it also in a way is Jalen Ramsey, too. And the way that you now split from one nucleus that you thought was the nucleus, and now you've split off into two nuclei. And you've got two solar systems now, and one's the defensive backfield and one's up front. And game over game, you can see how this continues, this group continues to put the pieces together. And at the very beginning, I kept telling people, I was like, look, guys, maybe execution won't always be there. But conceptually, you will be able to see what this scheme is. And that's the most important thing.

Because when you have superstar players, they can sometimes hide the ugly parts and the warts and the mistakes and all that stuff. But with this system, it's different because conceptually, even when there are mistakes and, you know, sometimes execution errors or what have you, you can still see what is supposed to happen and what it's supposed to do. and Brandon Staley during the by week, he showed the entire Rams defense specific cut-ups, starting with their very first set of snaps that they took in seven-on-sevins in training camp, and he built it little by little into a presentation of this exact evolution that we're talking about. So he showed that work to the players, and the buy-in was already happening, but it was complete through that time because the light bulb went off and they said, oh, we've been in it, so it's been hard to extrapolate and see what we've accomplished.

But now we can see exactly and tangibly what we've accomplished and, like, they're all in. It's just really cool to see. It's fun, I think, the two nuclei is the exact right metaphor, and you watch it happen. And I asked Sean about the motions they use on offense and some of the reasons behind it recently, and he said that it was just a way to change math. And that's what they do on offense and defense. That's why Staley is this interesting compliment. When you watch them play on defense, they change the math in all.

all these different ways. They run a lot of two high coverages to change the math that way. They run a lot of tight fronts to eliminate double teams and change the math that way. And then also, Donald and Ramsey change it. You just watch the space and just the resources from above on the All-22 when those two guys are doing things. Against Seattle, it's amazing the amount of grass on the side of the field that J. J.1 Ramsey is on covering D.K. Maccalf one-on-one.

And you just see visibly the impact. With Donald, you see the triple teams. And everything else rotates. around it. And that's why I think is so interesting is that it really does feel like a football lab. We're like, all of these ways. And Donald and Ramsey are one of those ways. And they have lesser, cheaper, I guess, for lack of a better word, players to do that around them. And I think Jordan Fuller is one of those guys that really sticks out to me. You did a huge story on him recently, right? Was it like a month ago? Yeah, it was in October. Yep. It feels like years ago at this

point, 2020. But yeah. So I think that, I think he's a perfect example. He's emblematic of this franchise in a lot of ways. So you have a guy who ran a 4-640 at the combine, somebody who was overshadowed in a lot of ways by other, better, bigger name players at Ohio State. He plays a position that's a little bit devalued when you think about the game overall and that had been flushed with younger players over the last couple drafts. But they see him and they see possibility. He's a smart guy who does exactly what they need him to do in that system. You don't need a first round safety to be able to succeed and excel in what we're trying to do because of the numbers advantages we create. So what stuck out to you about that process of finding him? And do you agree?

Do you think he's just kind of emblematic of what they're trying to do overall as a franchise? Yeah, you know, I do agree with that point. I think that Jordan Fuller, guys like Jordan Fuller, even guys like Darius Williams, players that are sort of starting to come into their own, the Van Jeffersons, you know, the Terrell Burgess is, although he's on injured reserve now, but he started to show his potential. those guys all mid to late round picks or even undrafted guys who are showing that they're contributing in the exact right space and the talent identification correlates directly to the vision that Sean and Brandon have for execution in that space. So Jordan is such an interesting case because there's this cohesiveness between vision and talent identification that I just mentioned.

And it started basically the second that Brayn's Daly sets foot in the door. And Sean says, okay, this defense is yours. And again, we talked about egos, operation, things like that, completely handing the reins to this guy who's like, yeah, he's bright, but okay, man, like still a first year NFL defensive coordinator. And so, but completely handing the reins to him and him communicating to talent, you know, the personnel department and scouts what he wanted. Well, in his ideal defensive system, yeah, you have some safeties who can do a couple of different things,

but then you've got a key center field guy and then you've also got your strong safety, he's going to call plays, and then also it's going to act as sort of in that hybrid linebacker role as needed. And in Jordan Fuller, on the personnel and identification side, what's been fascinating for me to watch and to study as someone who's very interested in the human brain and how decisions are made is the reverse engineering that Les Sneed has undergone over the last couple of years, and especially when Sean McVeigh gone into the building and they started having these deeper conversations about football and how to make decisions within the space of football and then beyond. And basically what Les Sneed has started to do is go through a bias unpacking system with his brain.

and things that directly apply to decision-making as it pertains to football, you see some of the adjustment, you know, already in, you know, yes, they made the mistake with the Todd Gurley contract. Well, then they pivoted from that mistake, right? And they're taking on the short-term debt for long-term betterment, roster betterment, et cetera, et cetera. You guys have covered this. But in terms of specific talent identification, there's such a series of, of, in intrinsic biases and things that can come down to even the 40 time as a recency bias in a pandemic when you're not getting workouts of prospects and you're not seeing kids work out on tape. And then, you know, the scout who is sort of a scientifically terminology, the scientific

terminology for, you know, how he processes is as an introvert, but Les Sneed also classifies himself as an introvert. So he sits and lets the other introverts speak. and when they pound the table for somebody, that's someone that they have to pay attention to. And it's just kind of this hierarchy of learning and unlearning and bias recognition and unpacking and sort of this delving into the subconscious through their entire scouting and personnel department with Ray Agnew and Brad Holmes, Les Sneed and Brian Hill and all of these guys who are in there sort of challenging each other to unknow certain things about prospects, not just to know.

measurable and have the robust analytics department, but also to challenge what they think they know about certain traits and tendencies. And that matches perfectly with Brandon Staley, who walks in the building and has 10 books to recommend to that staff of subconscious. You know what I mean? Like the cohesiveness is really, really interesting to me. But I'm, I'm, this is a very long way of answering your question, but it's so fascinating to me. But that's directly correlates into identifying that kind of talent because Jordan Fuller ran a 4-640 in a straight line. and that was the recency bias. Plus, you know, there's other biases that come into play

when you're watching a secondary, and then they're playing the type of defense that they are at Ohio State, where it's very, very hard unless you're very specifically extrapolating Jordan to do film study on the type of safety that he was playing while at Ohio State. He's center field guys.

Yeah. Yeah. And then your identification leans automatically because, again, the synapses in your brain leans toward the splashier guys and the flashy guys. And so it's just, it's really, really interesting. And then, of course, a little luck comes in because he's there in the sixth round. But, you know, it's so interesting.

Every one of these needs a little tiny bit. You're never going to have it without a couple breaks. But putting yourself in that position is important. And I think the unconscious bias is so interesting because I find myself while watching them checking some of my own football value systems. Because I've, in the same way, I think that I've all. always, you're drawn to guys that are downhill linebackers and guys that fly around. Like when I watch Bobby Wagner, I'm like, that's fucking cool.

Like that's, I love watching players like that. But then you just see the way their defense exists and there's all that pattern matching. And for linebackers, it's really just, I need to know how to direct traffic. I don't need to be this 240 pound 4-4 downhill sideline to sideline player. I need to know how to pass things off, how to play smart. And I think that the safety position in that defense is the exact same way. it's not a matter of moving to sideline to sideline. It's saying, all right, I need to be able to process quickly.

I need to be an extra defender in the run game, which Fuller does extremely well because of how quickly he identifies stuff. And that's really, really difficult. That goes really to the core of who you are as a football thinker. And I've talked to GMs who it takes 10 years into their career to get past that, this guy's popping off tape mindset. And getting past it is a hugely important part of identifying players for specific roles within this system and saying,

we have our math changers in Ramsey and Donald. Now we need guys who do specific things extremely well. And I think they've done a great job of identifying that stuff. So we've been celebrating the Rams here for 27 minutes. They are a 7 and 3 team. And they deserve to be celebrated. And I think that there's a reason we like talking about them on this show so much. But this is a team that wants to win a championship.

And when you're looking at that group of true contenders, I think it's important to kind of look at where the cracks are and where some of the issues in the final. foundation are. If you were thinking about what could hold this team back from becoming the true number one team in the NFC from going back to the Super Bowl, where do you think the short, where do you think the shortcomings lay? Yeah, it's a great question. And it's, it's really weird to sort of have a body of evidence that sort of points to the offense right now as a group that does not, still through four quarters has not put up a totally complete game through all four

quarters. Now, Monday night, I think I'll spot, how about this? I'll spot Jared one of those interceptions because one of those on the screen to Daryl, that was a little bit of a miscommunication. So I'll spot in that one. The screen was weird. That's not an issue to me. Don't even bring the screens up to me right now. Like I can't even with that right now. But so that particular one was just completely weird. So I'll spot him. that one. So even with the bad interception, I still think that was one of Jared's best games of the season in terms of diagnosing pressure, checking into certain things, getting the ball out quickly. But that's not always the Jared that we get. That's the Jared that came out of the bye week.

Pre-buy Jared, we got Miami Dolphins, arms in throwing lanes, can't hang on to the football, Jared, you know, difficulty with pressures. Seeing ghosts looking completely uncomfortable. Yeah. So if I start to see him. him, you know, he's put together two solid games against teams that are trying to blitz them in the same way at times that Brian Flores was hoping that they had found a similar blueprint to that six one that was discovered a couple years back. And they're hoping, teams, other teams are hoping that that will work down the stretch. But it has been interesting, and not to turn a sort of negative nitpick into a positive, but it has been interesting to see how they've adjusted to those things,

because the design is there and the execution has been getting there. But again, all four quarters, it's just not completely cohesive. And it's really weird that a Sean McVeigh-led team is having some of those identity issues, I think, might be a good way to say it on offense. And, you know, it just hasn't been cohesive, but for the last, you know, eight quarters, give or take, two or three within that space. Even identity issues, I think it might even be a little bit harsh, Because I think that beyond the, I think they know what they want their identity to be.

Sure. Teams are giving such a strong response to that identity. Slot pressures, bringing extra bodies, not really allowing them to get into that play action rhythm that they want to. That they're almost forcing them into quick game where Jared is not nearly as comfortable. So it's about finding answers in an uncomfortable space. I think that's exactly where they are right now. And the question is whether they can do that consistently. I thought that last night against the Bucks is a really good.

good example of why it works or how it can work. One, you're getting the ball out of his hands quickly and making defenses pay out of that quick game stuff. Two, you're protecting your left tackle who is playing his first real meaningful snaps at that position with worth out. So you're coming, you're getting answers from two different directions in two important areas. The question now is, can you keep finding answers when defenses try to make Jared and try to make McVe uncomfortable?

And I think that's going to be their biggest question here down the stretch. Yeah. And when I, to be clear, when I say identity issues, that's exactly what I mean. Because you know that this is how teams are going to play you. They're going to try to work you into an uncomfortable space. And then you have to, as everyone in that building calls it, operate within chaos. And you have to understand how to be comfortable operating within that chaos. The identity disconnect comes when you realize that cohesively, they have not shown that.

I mean, last two games, I think Jared's played great. the offense as a whole has executed on a level that I think they were expecting to coming out of the by, but had certainly not been put together prior. And so definitely when they, they clearly have the understanding and the knowledge of how teams are going to attack them. You see that in the design of every single play. There's the understanding of we, we know what's going to be coming at us. But the disconnect therein lies, you know, with can they do it cohesively? And that's where, you know, it's like you're rock climbing and you're reaching for that one that's just out of reach and you got a finger on it and maybe two fingers on it, but you really got to get all

five. The problem with Jared golf's small hands. It's another place where it comes up that you didn't think it would. Tied you up for that one. Yeah. All right. Jordan, thank you so much. We're going to talk about their future and their cap issues next year, but we're, we can't have a six-hour podcast here even though I want to. And as we've acknowledged, the cap is one of those things when it comes to the Rams that just doesn't exist. So I'm not sure it's going to be a problem. All the money's under the mattress. Just flip over the couch cushion. It's going to be fine. Jordan, thank you so much for doing this. I sincerely appreciate it. I'm telling you guys, please go check out Jordan's work on the athletic. She's done incredible work covering the Rams this season.

There's a backlog of features that are deep dives, not only on this team specifically, but on like she said, football process. Please go check that out. Please listen to the 11 personnel podcast. You will learn a bunch. I promise you won't regret it. Jordan, thanks so much for the time. We'll talk to you later. Before we get out of here, allow me to be sappy for a second. This week is about gratitude, but for me, that's been a pretty important theme all year. I've been struck by how many things I have to be grateful for. It's been an impossibly strange year for so many people, and for me, it's also meant changing

jobs and taking a chance on something new here. And I just wanted to say that I'm grateful for you guys taking a chance on this show and on me. It truly means a lot. For those of you who won't be able to see your families this week, I won't be able to see my mom or my brothers. I hope that this silly little show makes you guys feel just a little bit more connected than you would otherwise. It means a lot to me that you let me be a part of your lives, both this week and every other week. So thank you.

We will be back tomorrow with Lindsay Jones on Thanksgiving, previewing Thanksgiving games, everything to come in week 12. Until then, thank you so much for listening to The Athletic Football Show. We'll talk to you later. This was the athletic football show.