The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - NFL Draft o-line break down with Brandon Thorn

Episode Date: April 14, 2021

Robert is joined by Trench Warfare owner Brandon Thorn to break down a deep 2021 NFL Draft offensive line class, from top guys like Penei Sewell, Teven Jenkins, Rashawn Slater, and Christian Darrisaw to second tier players, arm length concerns, potential positional shifts, and much more.You can get an annual subscription to The Athletic for just $3.99 a month when you visit theathletic.com/footballshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today, my favorite person to talk about offensive wide play with. Trench Warfare creator, writer, owner, Brandon Thorne. Brandon, how you doing, buddy? Doing great, man. I'm excited to do this.

And it's been much anticipated on my end. That's for sure. Same with me for many reasons. One, it's been said often in this pre-draft process. This is a deep offensive line class. There are tons of guys that might be immediate starters. And I was reading that consistently without having watched many of them. I was going to come to it before we were going to do this.

I spent most of the last two days watching all of these guys. It's been extremely enjoyable. I think it's a fascinating group of players. Obviously, we know the names at the top, but there are a lot of really intriguing guys into the second, third round. You know, your number seven offensive tackle in this class is somebody that people could talk themselves into. I want to say Daniel Jeremiah tweeted earlier this week that it's a deep class to

most people, but the rankings of the tackles that are four through eight are probably all over the place. And when you watch them play, that makes total sense. So that's what we're doing today. We're going to talk about this year's offensive line class. We're going to do the tackles. We're going to do the interior guys. You know, try to stack up your top five at each position with a couple of guys that might

be on the outside that we think are interesting and we're talking about. So let's start with that depth because I, I remember at the ringer a couple years ago, I wrote a story about why there was essentially a dearth of offensive line town in the NFL and why that there was just this drought of players coming in at that position. There were a lot of different hypotheses and theories

as to why that might be, whether it was the difference in the college game and the pro game, the lack of playing or practice time and how that just was affecting the development of guys at that position, because it's a learned position. It's something that you have to rep and do over and over again to hone. And it really did seem like edge talent and defensive line talent was drastically outpacing

offensive line talent in the league. And this draft is not like that at all. It's the opposite. So were you surprised when you started digging into this group of players that there are so many guys that seem pro ready? And where do you think that's coming from? Yeah. So I was absolutely surprised.

I mean, I'm still trying to finish this class and I won't finish until like the very last minute pretty much because this is the first time I've ever watched an entire class of offensive linemen. So I'm going to be watching like 60 guys and grading him and writing scouting reports. So, you know, I was very surprised to see, you know, I'm like 45, 50 deep and I'm still finding guys that I'm like, oh, this guy might be like a third or fourth round guy, you know, because I see parts of his game that are starter. worthy, he just has these obvious weaknesses that, you know, could be correctable as well. So I've been very surprised. I'm still kind of finding, I'm probably at the end now, but I'm still kind of finding these hidden gem kind of guys. And I think part of the reason for that, you know, I mean, just the athletic ability of these guys, I think, has improved pretty substantially. And I think part of that is probably, you know, traced back to the high school level of guys being more

attracted to offensive line play for whatever reason, maybe just because, you know, there's, there's more offensive line talk and clips and stuff like that on social media. There are, you know, guys like Duke Mannyweather, the Charles Bentley, people like that who have trained the position at a high level and are showcasing that to people. I think that that has an influence on young people and potentially it has led more of these bigger athletic guys to the offensive line at an early stage. And now here we are four or five years later where we're seeing some of that. And I think that could be part of it. That's just one kind of theory. I won't know if that's a trend, obviously, until we maybe, you know, if I get

to watch another couple of classes in a row. But it seems to be this year, just the amount of athletes out there on the field for offensive line. And guys who aren't just super raw either, who were fairly refined, I think it's just, it's really high. I mean, this class, like, round two to five, there's a lot of guys I could see who could start within their first contract. I mean, a lot, you know, a couple dozen. What was the guy that you would just surprised as you started digging into it? Like, man, this guy is going to be able to play?

Like, this is the type of guy that's going to be a starter in this league. Who are a couple examples that you just stumbled upon as you got into it a little bit later? Oh, man. So recently. probably the biggest one is Brendan Hymas from Nebraska, who I thought it was Brandon James, but it's actually Hymas. I did a film room with him. He told me that it's mispronounced all the time, but he's a left tackle for Nebraska,

you know, a little bit undersized guy, you know, six, five, barely 300 pounds. And, you know, below the 34 inch arm length threshold that teams won. he's like 32 and change, but he's very athletic. His foot quickness is certainly there, but not just the foot quickness, the actual patterns that he's executing in his pass set are very efficient. His hands are very good. He's consistently using his hands to reestablish position on pass rushers

and just he just gets guys blocked consistently. He's faced very good competition as well in the Big Ten over the course of his career. And I think he's fared pretty well against it. Now, you know, guys who were able to convert speed to power, able to get into his chest and lift him up. And, you know, I like to say his anchor is kind of like he dies slowly, you know, in his anchor. So, you know, he's one of those guys.

He's really going to have to work hard against, you know, elite type power rushers with prototypical length and stuff like that. But I think his technique, his fundamentals, I think, are really starter caliber. and he's a guy that I just wound up liking more and more as I continued to watch him. And I mean, I kind of, I mean, I think he reminds me a little bit of like a Joe Tuny in college, you know, like an undersized guy playing left tackle. There's a lot of those guys in this class. A lot of guys that are like 6-4 with 32-inch arms that have solid games but don't project as

prototype tackles. It feels like there's like five or six of them in this group. He's one of them. He's just like terms like sophisticated, efficient, savvy. These are kind of things that I kept thinking of when I watched his tape. And he was just a blast of watch because of that. Because I just wanted to see how he was going to figure out how to do it, you know, the next rep. So he was somebody that I really liked and it was pretty high on.

Brady Christensen is another one, kind of in a similar mold from BYU, left tackle, similar, you know, very athletic, even more athletic. and wins in similar ways, very crafty, efficient. He mixes up his sets, mixes up his hands. Those are two guys that tackle, I think, recently that have jumped out to me. And on the interior, there's a lot of guys, man, that I like in this class. One guy in particular that stands out pretty significantly to me as a guy named Drew Dalman from Stanford. His dad played for the 49ers for a long time. And, dude, this guy, he kind of reminds me.

me a kind of a throwback like Nick Hardwick with the chargers back in the day. And the reason for that, his short area of quickness is just outstanding. He's undersized. I think he's like six, three, 300 pounds, 32 inch arms. So, you know, enough length for center. I think he's center only guy. But, I mean, his tape is just really impressive to me. I mean, what he lacks in weight, he overcomes with pad level, technique, and efficiency. he's just so good at getting, you know, reach blocks, scoop blocks, you know, zone guy for sure. That's what I thought. I saw you say that.

You thought he fit best in his own scheme? He's a center in his own scheme. But if he gets into the right place, I think he could be an above average starter for a decade. He's a really good finisher. He decifers things quickly. I mean, I just, you know, team captain, the bloodline thing. It's just physical dimensions are below average with him in terms of. length and he's going to get overwhelmed at times against certain guys like Lynn Ball

Joseph, you know, those type of guys. But, you know, I think somebody like Kyle Chanahan loves this guy if he watches him on tape, you know, Sean Bingway, people like that, I'm sure would really like him. So he really stood out to me. He's a guy I'm probably higher on than a lot of people as well. So that's, you know, one from the tackle group, one from the interior group. And there's more, but those are just two. So I want to talk about Brady Christensen for a second because we'll have an extended conversation about arm length after this because his are extremely short. Even if you don't want to get into it with the top guys in the class because they have 33 inch arms, Brady Christensen measured at 32 and a quarter as a tackle. So do you have a cutoff?

Do you have an actual number? It's like this is not viable. This guy just cannot play tackle at this size in the NFL. I mean, I usually would say 33 inches, you know, 33 because there's, there's only that I know of two tackles last year who played at sub 33 and that was Kayla McGarry and Braden Smith and they're not the highest end tackles either. I mean, you know, Braden's a little older than Caleb, but still, I mean, I think Braden Smith gets a lot of help in the cold system. That's another story. So like two tackles in the league who are playing

at sub 33. So there's just not a lot of precedent for it. So I always say if you're 33, and above. Like you could play tackle if your hands are really good. Now, Christensen, his hands, I think, are very good. And his wingspan is actually a little bit longer than a traditional, I don't know it off top of my head, but it reaches, I think it might hit a certain benchmark that that 33 inch arms typically hit. So he actually has maybe a little bit more of a reach than a guy would at his arm length, which, you know, I think his arm length is like 32 and, what is it, 32 and a fourth. So yeah, certainly very short for tackle. I think because his hands are so good, he could probably make it out there and he's very athletic as well. So he's really good

at manipulating body positioning and leverage and stuff like that. If somebody wanted to put him inside, I would not bat an eye. My grade wouldn't change. I still feel the same way about him. You know, I think he's a round two pick at any position. He kind of reminds me in playing style. of like an Anthony Costanzo. I just think he's very efficient and he's really good with his hands. He's patient. And he's really good in the zone run game

that BYU runs as well. You know, the knocks are obviously aside from length. He didn't face good competition really at all except Peyton Turner from Houston and, you know, lost one glaring rep in that game. He got helped a little bit in pass protection by the scheme. They ran a lot of 12 personnel, a lot of play action rollouts, quick games,

stuff like that. So there's going to be a transition period for him, but I think he has the foundation to his game to where he is going to be, or he could be a solid guy right away, and maybe not that high of a ceiling, but a guy who, you know, you can win with early and, you know, he could probably play three or four positions. When I was watching him and when I heard you talking to him during your film room, he's clearly really smart and thoughtful and he looks at this in a lot of different ways. And the ways he moved and the fact that some of that backside reached up was a huge strength of his game, it almost felt like you could play him at center.

Like when I was watching him move, I was like, he might be a center based on the weight, because he's also small, right? It's not just that his arms are small. He's, I think he's a good six five, right? And he only weighs 300 pounds. And he's 6.6, he weighs 300. So that's a concern for center, but we'll get to 6, 6, 6 centers here in a bit. he's 6-6-300 pounds and he's 24 years old.

He's four years older than Penae Sula's four years and they're in the same draft class. So you would assume that it's going to be difficult for him to add mass. He's probably going to have to play at that. I don't know. When I watched him play, I was like, I wonder if a team would try him at center when you consider how smart he is, all of the other stuff, the movement skills, the intelligence. It just feels like an interesting experiment. Yeah, he, you know, in my spreadsheet that I shared with you, you'll see O.T. slash interior for him. So he's one of the guys that I have along with Brandon Hymas that we talked about, even a guy like

Alex Leatherwood, I have with those distinctions, Dillard Rand Dunes from North Dakota State. Those four guys to me, and even Rishon Slater to a degree, are all like positionless type of guys who you just want on your team. You know, that's how I kind of say. see those those group of people or group of players it's interesting going back to the the tuny point it really does feel like christiansen a couple of these other guys they play tackle in college but they don't necessarily hit the benchmarks or physical profile of a tackle in the NFL and that even includes the top guys in the class when we talk about players that are going to be top 10 picks for the most part they check every physical box especially someone who's been marketed the way that

Sewell has in just in where he falls with tackle prospects we've seen over the last decade, but even he has short arms. So weirdly, it's almost like this entire tackle class. You have to think about how they fit and which areas of their games of their game can make up for length. It's part of what makes this group really, really interesting is that they don't necessarily fit into the same boxes that we've seen from other players of that position over time. Yeah, I mean, totally.

there's for me right now in the top four great top four round grades for tackles i think only three guys have 34 inch arms it's crazy and a couple of them have 32 you know christiansen being one leon ikenberg being another they may need to play garter center um you know which to me wouldn't matter because i think that you know when your technique your use of hands your use of leverage and stuff like that fundamentals footwork base if that stuff is good at tackle it's going to be good inside typically. I mean, I don't see them struggling with that transition. So to me, there's a certain group of player in here like Leatherwood, Christensen, I miss, Raddoons, and even Slater to a degree, who I just won on my team at varying points

in the draft. I see their value, of course, but those are guys who I think could play all five positions potentially. Do you think that at a certain point, if you have elite movement skills at tackle. Moving inside mutes, how impactful those movement skills can be? To a degree, but not as much as you would think, because I think three technique right now, and for the last five, six years, you're going to be seeing not just pure three techniques who are very good to elite players almost every single week. You're going to be seeing edge rushers inside and you're going to be isolated as a guard in particular. Or maybe center they would be muted a little bit, depending on the scheme, of course,

because if you're in Kyle Shanahan scheme or something like that, you're going to be given the opportunity to use that more than you would in most schemes. But I think Guard, pass protection as a guard right now is as hard as it's ever been. And I think that, you know, would kind of lends itself to say that they're going to be tested, not as much as tackle, obviously, because they're not dealing with as much space. But the level of competition at Guard that you're going to be seeing across from you in the NFL right now is just absurd. So being a really good athlete, I think really helps you inside, not as much as it does a tackle, but it's closer than people think, you know, I would say. All right. So let's

start with the man here. I watch Sewell today in depth, and I know that you are a big fan, as many people are. And there is so much to love, but I can understand some of the reservations that people have. So let's start with the good. He is the number one tackle for you. in this class. He is 20 years old, which every single time I look at the birthday, it makes me depressed. It's October of 2000. And there are so many aspects to his game that are truly elite. So just give me the short version.

Why do you think he is just a step above all of the other guys in this group? So I would say his frame, his build, his play speed, and his power are all just, you know, top-notch, elite, you know, on tape. And then he confirmed a lot of that, I think, you know, in the testing, considering he was at 330 pounds. But that's just the short, condensed version. In terms of critical factors, I think, you know, for the position, play strength, power, competitive toughness. I think his mental processing is we could dive into that one. I think that is pretty special. And, you know, play speed, like I said, which is kind of a convergence of processing and athletic ability and I like kind of boxing it in like that.

I think it's play speed, man, is just, it's elite. And I think it's the best I've seen in a while, honestly. And considering he's just 20, you know, that's just the cherry on top that just makes it really, really special. Where do you see the processing come through? How does that manifest to you? Yeah. So just, you know, so for him in particular, and thankfully for a bunch of these guys,

I've gotten to talk to their line coaches and I've gotten to say, okay, hey, what's happening here? What's happening here? You know, talk to me about this and, you know, a lot of these guys have been able to do that for me. And for him, you know, there was a game that, you know, had you watch against Stanford in 2018. I've told this story a couple times. When he was 17 years old. 17 years old and he's going against, you know, a pretty decent front. And in that game, he makes a couple decisions.

post-snap based on late movement that the defense does against looks that he's never seen and not only makes the correct decision on the fly, but then just the physical dominance to finish the rep, like, you know, specific one against Stanford. They're basically everybody's, you know, moving around pre-snap. There's no down linemen in front of them. So it's obviously a lot to process right there. and then it's an inside zone run and he picks up the guy that's closest to him and then there's a linebacker at the last minute that flashes over the top works off him picks him up and then drives him down literally like 20 25 yards down the field finishes him in the end zone so the physical dominance capped off with the snap decision making I think you know flashes up there but then there's other tapes as well where if you watch enough of soul he executes these natural fold blocks on the backside of zone where instead of blocking the guy to the left of the left

guard he actually works behind the guard and tries to climb up through the second level around the guard and a lot of that one earlier today against Washington yeah the one you posted yeah so that's an example but a lot of that stuff is on on the fly decisions that he's just saying you know what I can't get to this guy on this angle I'm going to take this angle and a lot of the times he's right And to be doing that at, you know, 18, 19 years old when he was doing those things. I mean, you know, he's just, it seems like the game of football comes very natural to him. And I think his football intelligence is very, very high. And I think if you pair football intelligence being at that level with his raw physical gifts at his age,

I think just that is enough for me right there to say, okay, this guy's a top 10 pick. And then I think his hand usage to me, I thought was really good. His ability to create leverage on guys by getting that inside part of the shoulder pad, that armpit area consistently, I thought jumped out on tape. His grip strength is dominant. You know, the Auburn game to me, now I know there was a rep or two against Derek Brown where he got, you know, stood up. But I thought against Marlon Davidson, his ability to kick him out and just

create enough movement to spring big runs in that game really jumped out to me. And Marlon Davidson's a 290-pound edge player who, you know, he's probably not going to be seeing a lot of those guys in the NFL. But it was a good test case to see what kind of movement he can create in the run game against somebody like that. So I just saw so much on his tape. And considering his age again, man, I know we keep coming back to that. It's worth mentioning, though.

It's important to consider when you think about spending. top 10 or top five pick on a guy, where he can go matters. And the fact that he's 20 years old and they're so far to go is something that we should take into account in this discussion. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that's that's it. I think that's what really makes him special on top of everything else. And I gave him a 9-0 grade, which on the Bleacher report scale, top 10 is 9-0 to 9-4. So to me, he's like a bottom tier top 10 pick, if you will. I didn't give him a 9-1 or 9-2 or 9-3 or 9-4, because I think that there are some stuff that he needs to clean up as well in terms of pad level, you know, moving his feet in past protection after first contact and not giving up that quick

half man, you know, on the edge. I think skilled rushers who can string moves together can get to his edge. He didn't play against many of those either. And you can tell. There just isn't a lot of that. Bradley and A and Zach Bonn were two that jumped out. And then I want to talk about the length in a second because he had a rep against tri-on in 2019 that I thought was particularly telling. But sticking with the positives, there was a play against Washington in 2019 where they were down near the goal line. It was like inside the 10. And he came back around pulling across the formation. Watching him maneuver around the guard on those blocks is insane. Just the nimbleness of his feet. He looks like a ballerina, how quickly and smoothly he does it. And,

there's a difference between being an explosive athlete and having ease of movement. And I think there are a couple guys in this class that that distinction is really clear when you watch them play and then you watch the testing numbers. I think Alex Leatherwood is an example of that. And you watch Sewell move, it's ease of movement. It's not just the explosiveness. And the awareness is crazy. You know that famous, famous block that Quentin Nelson had coming across the formation?

That's awareness and picking things up in the periphery of your vision. So he does that shit all the time. He just sees things and is able to process in this incredibly fast way, and he has the movement skills. So that stuff just jumps out all the time. The things I will say, and the hands, I think is another good point. I wanted to mention that. Because remember when we were talking about Trent Williams and our all pro podcast and how there's so many times he'll just shut something down instantly, and it's almost

hard to judge how good he is because the rep finishes before it even starts. That's how Sue feels all the time. and pass protection. Like, he's getting on guys so fast, and it's just over. It's over right away. So it's hard to understand how to judge that because Oregon's offense was so screen heavy and so RPO heavy that he's not doing a lot of traditional pass setting. But it's also misleading to say that all these quick passes are the reason he's winning

because he's shutting guys down instantly. So it's hard to judge him, though. Because when you're watching him, he did not play against that many quality or nuanced rushers. And I think the other thing to think about is the length. Because there was a rep against Tryon in 2019 where Tron, who has 34-inch arms

and he'll be an NFL player, got into him with a long arm and you can clearly see that he might struggle with length. The difference is, because he carries that 3.30, even if guys get into him, he just anchors down instantly and you can't move him. And watching the way he was, wears that 330 pounds is nuts.

It looks like he weighs 310 at 6 foot 5, but he's 3.30, and that shows up all of the time. But I will say, do you think that we don't know enough about him in traditional pass sets and against real good pass rushers to talk about his floor? Because a lot of people think he's a high floor guy. I think we haven't seen enough of him in those scenarios to necessarily say that. Yeah, that's fair, I think. You know, maybe not the highest floor in year one, but I think if you're talking over the course of his first contract, you know, and just more of a big picture perspective on who he will be in the early part of his, in that time period, I think his floor is pretty high. Just because I've seen enough, I think, nuance and, you know, technical refinement from him to say the stuff that he does need to clean up, while it could get exposed a little bit more in year one than year three. You know, so that's where I could say maybe year one, his floor is maybe a little lower than people may think it would be.

But overall, I see his floor being pretty high just because I just think he's so, you know, the talent, but also I've seen enough technique stuff from him and nuanced stuff and savviness from him. He only has 20 starts as well. I mean, there's going to be a period of time early in his career where there's going to be an adjustment, I'm sure. I mean, but to me that when I see that next year when I'm watching an NFL film, to me, it's probably not going to mean a whole lot because I just am thinking about years two, three, and four. And you have that luxury with him because of his age to where I don't think it, you know, year one, he just needs to start playing football again since he's been out of the game for so long.

But like I said, you know, he doesn't have a top five grade for me. He doesn't have a high-end top-10 grade for me, but he does have that, you know, kind of illustrious top-10 distinction from me because of what we're talking about. So I, you know, I don't see him as like a Joe Thomas-type, you know, prospect, but I see him as an outstanding prospect with a ceiling that is limitless. So are you worried that you have no one compare him to, that there really are no tackles that we've seen in the, like, that have been really, really successful high-end guys that have 33 inch arms, but weigh 3.30. I mean, he's almost like in his own class in terms of

physical profile, which is cool and is exciting, but it also is one of those things where there's no reference point for him in this weird way. I actually have one that I think makes a lot of sense. 2019 Leo Collins. Okay. So Leo Collins has 33 and a fourth inch arms, same exact arm length, bigger dude, really good on the move. But 2019. is when you saw Lail Collins match up his talent with his play. Because prior to that, obviously got moved around from guard to tackle, dealt with injury. Now he dealt with injury again last year.

So the view on him is, I think, you know, maybe not on that level. But in 2019, I thought Lail Collins was the best run blocking right tackle in football. And his past protection was above average. That's how I see Penae Soule winning. I could see him being the best run blocking tackle in the game. or certainly on that Trent Williams spectrum, and then it passed protection above average. That, to me, is worth a top 10 pick.

He moves like Trent Williams in the run game. They're not physically built the same way, but the ease of movement and just what he can do on the backside of some of this stuff, that's what he reminds me of. It jumps off the screen in the same way. All right, let's get to Rashon Slater from Northwestern, because there are some people who have him as the top tackle

in this entire class. And after watching him, I totally understand that. Because his movement on tape is really impressive. He's also an easy mover in the same way that Sula is. When you look at the testing, his testing numbers were out of this world. He also benched a ton, which that doesn't necessarily come across in the way that he plays. The movement skills are more impressive than his brute strength. But he essentially tested as well as you could possibly want him to at his pro day.

And his tape is also really impressive. So when you're looking at the gap between those two guys, where does it exist for you? To me, Slater's ceiling is just, it's noticeably and significantly lower than Sewells. I don't see him becoming an elite starter at tackle, a guard. Yes, I could see Brashon Slater becoming a total stud inside. I still, so this is funny, I've actually went back and forth. I've actually changed his projection to guard back to tackle twice. But I'm sticking with it at tackle because I think if you can get a very good tackle above average,

you know, worst case, that is probably more worth it than him going to guard and being maybe elite, even though that, to me, you know, I change my mind on that all the time. So to me, I mean, I think he is extremely clean as a prospect. I think he's going to come in right away and be good. And maybe year one potentially be better than Sewell, I wouldn't rule that out. You know, I just think it's more of- To me, it's the hands.

That's the reason that I just think the way he uses his hands and the hand placement and the independent hands and the way he can shut stuff down, all of that stuff. His refinement is at a level that Sewell's isn't at this moment. Yeah, I would agree with that for sure. And, you know, when you're talking about high-end first-round picks, that's where I start to value things like traits and age and maybe just some of the those type of

things a little bit more if their technique and refinement is you know at a benchmark level which I think Sewells is a little bit above that slaters you know his traits are good I mean he's fine his athletic ability is elite you know but I think this the overall size and the lack of length with him to me showed up more than it did for Sewell. And that's where I think longer rushers with 34 plus inch arms who know how to use their hands, most importantly, are going to probably be able to give him some trouble. And I think we saw that on tape against A.J. Epinessa, against Iowa,

who I thought was able to get into his chest quite a bit and just give him some trouble. Zach Bond from Wisconsin was another guy. who I thought gave him some trouble with like the long arm bull rush. You know, just that lack of girth and that average length, 33 inches flat, you know, I think that'll give him a little bit of trouble at tackle and just kind of cap his ceiling as like a top, you know, eight to 12 left tackle, you know, or something like that, you know, which to me that that's a bona fide first round pick all day.

It's just, I think, you know, when you're parsing it, the ceiling is just, to me, it's more cap than Sewell. And I think Sewell is actually close to reaching that ceiling as well. So yeah, but his body control, man, his contact balance. The thing about him that impressed me the most was his ability to recover from compromising positions. And what was just phenomenal. So, I mean, I loved his tape. I love who he is, you know, in terms of he's like, he's a pro. You know, you're going to get a guy who's going to step in right away and be good. so I totally understand people liking him a lot. I just can't get on board with liking him more than Sewell as a prospect. I'm just there's a gap there because of these reasons. Here's my theory about it.

And I'll see what you say about this. I think that the reason that, and this probably is a normal thing to say, but the reason that the length is more of a problem with him is if guy gets into his chest, he can't anchor down in the same way that Sewell can't. So you neither need to be extremely powerful or long to be. an elite tackle. He is neither. I mean, he doesn't have that weight and that mass to anchor down if somebody does get into him.

And guys are probably going to get into him if you have 33 inch arms. And you saw that a little bit. There are moments where he can shut guys down instantly. I mean, I think the Ohio State game stuff is overstated because he only played against Chase Young for like a dozen plays and he just got on him very quickly. But you can understand watching that game, man, he just, he's on him right away, shutting things down again. just the hand usage.

There are so many aspects to his game that you really like. But I just think that the length is going to show up with him more than Sewell just because Sue has 25 pounds on him. Like it's just that simple. Yeah, I think that's a part of it. I think he's more scheme dependent than Sewell as well. I mean, like you ideally want him in his own scheme. Sewell, you could drop him in anywhere.

It literally doesn't matter where you put Sewell in in terms of the system. I think Slater has a clear better fit in his own scheme. Now, that doesn't mean he can execute Gaport. concepts and you know inside zone dual i mean he sure can but sull is just he's scheme proof slater has a little bit more of that dependence i have him as an immediate starter borderline impact starter you know that's where he is to me he's just right there on the cusp of being that impact type of guy to me at tackle now like i said again at guard you know it's it's kind of a different story for me He would have a higher grade at guard for me personally.

I could see like a Joel Bentonio, Ali Marpet, that whole archetype. I could see Slater fitting right into that. And he matches up on paper almost identical to those guys. Marpet is his second biggest comparison on mock draftable after Connor McGovern. Marpet, Brady Christensen is in there weirdly enough. We're talking about guys bumping inside. So that's those really elite athletes with shorter arms that eventually move inside. I mean, Marpet is a really good example.

So a guy you have above Roshant Slater in your personal rankings is Tavin Jenkins from Oklahoma State, which is the least surprising thing in the history of the world if anyone has any background with the type of guys that you like. So if you guys haven't checked out Brandon's work, he has his own site called Trench Warfare. You should absolutely go watch it. He did a series of film rooms with a bunch of these guys where he goes through 20, 30 of their plays, talks about their mindset, what they were doing. The one with Kevin Jenkins was incredible because he said multiple times

that one of the things he wanted to work on last year was being more of a dickhead. And when you watch him play, that's exactly what shows up. He loves being a dickhead, and you appreciate that. As a big Ryan Jensen fan, you are in the dickhead camp.

So when you watched him outside of the mindset and him really wanting to dominate people, what do you think puts him in the same? same class as a guy like Slater is a tackle prospect. So just one of my notes for his positives, overwhelming upper body strength, leg drive, and square power to dominate inside inside zone and gap and power run concepts. So I think he has this clear area of his game that is elite or very close to it that I think Slater has in the in the body control and balance.

but I just maybe you know part of it is a stylistic thing and me personally I love to see a guy who has that functional strength at an elite level and the thing you know aside from that I think I have to just start with that but I really liked his use of hands so you know I thought you know in my report again crafty use of hands to defeat an assortment of pass rush moves that are prevalent in the NFL including a snatch trap technique to defeat the long arm he has a certain circle punch to defeat the cross chop and a Hamilton technique, which is a Mitchell Schwartz special to unlock a defender's arms at the wrist or forearm. So he's unlocking hands. He's knocking down hands. He's coming up and around the cross chop. He's defeating all these NFL moves with crafty

uses of his hands. And then once he latches, it's over. So it's hilarious to watch. It is amazing how he just physically dominates people as soon as he gets his hands on them. commanding grip strength that puts defenders in a cage. That's my note on him for positive. And I just see that. I think he has above average agility, foot quickness and burst, which above average to me is enough. You know, he's functional and experienced in outside zone stuff and moving in space. And I thought he noticeably got better from 2019 to 2020. He also had to move to left tackle in game a couple times, once against Tulsa. So, you know, there's a lot there that I liked about him.

The, you know, I guess the limit to him is his range and pass protection. You saw it on the last rep of the game against Texas against Joseph Asai, who is going to be an NFL guy. He's very raw, but he's a freak athlete. And he was in a wide nine technique. They knew Texas was, or they knew Oklahoma State, was passing. So those type of situations in the pro game were third and long, you know, high leverage situation and an elite speed rusher off the edge and a wide nine is trying to

get to the corner. Those type of situations, if he doesn't have any help, he can get into trouble. That's the thing. No, what I just described, you do not see many tackles in the NFL put in those situations, you know, outside of the elite of the elite. Nine times out of 10, if it's in that situation, they're going to have some sort of help. So if he is given that luxury that most other guys are given, I think that one is going to be masked to a large degree or it can be. And he's a little predictable. You can see him getting antsy on some of those plays.

You can see him understanding he has to get out there. And if he's feeling that discomfort, his feet can get a little jumbled. His base gets a little bit narrow. He oversets sometimes. He's not as confident and as smooth in those movements. as some of these other guys, even if he's a little bit more explosive, all of that stuff. Again, it's a give and take. I mean, everybody's going to have these, if you're doing the bars, one's going to be higher,

one's going to be lower. With him, the power and the mindset and all that stuff is there. But you can see him getting a little bit ahead of himself when he knows his game has to be sped up. Yeah, I think that's totally fair. You know, I compared him to Jedrick Wills, a little bit less maybe athletic ability, but not much at all, but very similar ways they, they win with power, physicality, and the commanding grip strength. Now, Jedrick Will has added this vertical set to his game last year that I thought really

helped him out in certain spots against those situations I just described. Third and long, wide nine. He uses a vertical set as a changeup. That's something I think that Tevin Jenkins can add to his game, maybe not quite as clean as Jeddrich's, maybe. Now, granted, you know, another really interesting thing about all of this is I think that he, if you put him in a situation like Juddrick Wills went into, I think you can expect a very similar rookie season. Right tackle to left. Same idea. Yeah, that's the thing though with a lot of these guys, man. Juddrick Wills went into the absolute perfect situation. Bill Callahan playing next to Joe Betonio. Exactly. I mean, if you can replicate that, I think Kevin Jenkins would be almost the same player.

So, you know, that's obviously probably not going to happen. So we're going to probably see more variance to his rookie year than we did with Wills. But nonetheless, I think their playing style is very similar. And that's how I see him winning. So the other guy that is typically included in this group of four top tackles is Christian Darrasoff from Virginia Tech. I really liked him. This is the difference between me and you. I am talking myself into the flashplay.

like the backside cutoff plays and he's actually a really smooth mover and pass protection and it looks like he processes well. But there are effort issues and concentration issues that you worry about more than I do because you're focused on the downside because that's how you should think about offensive linemen

because it really matters having fewer blemishes on your record than whatever your ceiling is. With me, I just get entranced by how he moves and some of that other stuff in the physical gifts because he actually has the most typical frame and build of any of these four guys. And at its best, it looks fantastic.

So do you think that he is right there with these other three in your mind in terms of immediate starter, potential high-end guy? Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, Tevin has an 8.5, Slater is an 8.4. Derrissau is an 8.2. And the only reason it's not 8.4 or 8.3 is because of the effort issues, the lackadaisical nature that he plays with. I mean, I was watching, it was UNC or Duke.

I can't remember which one, but it's like, I think it was the first tape I watched. And up until the end of the first half, I was like, holy crap, this dude, smooth movement, initial and lateral quickness is very good. He's comfortable on an island. He has patience and confidence to not bite on those stutters and hesitations. He looks like he can play on an island. And to see that from a college guy, that really jumped out to me. His balance and agility is very good to redirect against counter moves.

He was working off multiple threats. And then the last play of the first half. That's what's impressive to me is that that ability to work off multiple threats. You see that pop up pretty often. And that's really impressive for that kind of guy. Oh, yeah, man. Physically and just his ability is on par with all these guys, for sure. No question in my opinion.

But also the mental part, the fact that he can process multiple threats and see that kind of stuff, that's what's confusing about him. Because typically a guy that has focus lapses and that kind of stuff, you think, oh, he's just a physical guy. He has a lot of tools, but the mental side of his game needs work. There are aspects to his mental game that you really like and that aspects that are disappointing, which is almost hard to reconcile a little bit. Yeah, I mean, and that leads me to believe that he can most likely correct it. That's my thing. Yeah, for sure. And that's why I still gave him like a bona fide first round grade. Like 8.2 is like you take this guy in the first round. Don't let him out. You know,

that's like a top 25 type grade, top 20 even. So I, you know, I still really can see all that like it. But what I was saying in that Duke game or UNC, I think it was Duke at the end of the first half, you know, it was a run play. It was a kickout block on wide zone. The defensive end spiked inside. And he just like opened the door and watched him go by. And I was like, I was like, okay, you know, that's, that's weird. So then, you know, didn't even write it in my notes because I need to see things at least three, four times before I even write it down. So I was like, okay, whatever. And then it creeped up again in the next game, in the next game.

And then against Liberty, he let these 230 pound defensive ends just get into his chest and stand them up repeatedly. And I was like, you should be crushing these dudes. And you're letting them just do what they want. And I was like, okay, that's, that's the final. straw. I'm going to write it down. I'm going to take it off. You're almost disappointed in him. Yeah, I was. I was that, that's exactly it. I was just disappointed in him. That's, that's it. That's my biggest knock on Christian Derisaw. And that's the only reason why I have him

lower because I think, you know, maybe in the NFL when you're not facing those stud guys, are you going to let yourself go a little bit? And maybe, who knows, cost, you know, yourself a big play. You know, that to me when you're parsing top 10, 15, 20 picks is important. You know, so I compared him to Dion Dawkins. I think that he wins very similarly. He might be, I think he's a little bit more athletic even, but he has the frame and build and the commanding type of grip strength and easy power

that reminded me of Dion and the way he plays, especially Dion now, not as a rookie, but now, I think that's how Darasaw can be. So, yeah, and he's tough, man. I'm not going to discredit him there either in terms of, you know, I know he played hurt his true freshman year on an ankle, I believe. So, yeah, I mean, you know, there's other things as well. Like he doesn't mix up his past sets a whole lot. He's very just, you know, that 45 degree set, you know, and I think against wide nine rushers,

he can overset guys here and there, and he relies on his upper body strength a little too much. And that's kind of tied to the lackadaisical nature of it. You know, he just kind of gets lazy with his feet. So, yeah, I mean, you know, still a first round pick at the end of the day, but it's fun to parse it out. Absolutely. And that's with first round picks, you have to do that. And I think that if we're looking at this group, that four is kind of solidified as the four. And then there's a step down and then it gets a little bit murkier.

We talked about Christensen a little bit. The guy that I think is really interesting is Alex Leatherwood. Because if we're talking about what you need from tackles, if you're just looking for a guy who's going to do enough consistently, he's perfect to me. Because it's very strange. His physical testing does not match up with the way he moves on tape, in my opinion. Because he doesn't react to things very well.

I think that he has trouble kind of redirecting as if things change. change up. He moves, like, his kick set is fine, and I think he's a perfectly fine athlete, but he just doesn't redirect very well. He does, he's not very flexible in the things that he's doing. But he's also really, he's not that long, but he uses his length very well. Like, even against Ojolari, who has very long arms, especially for a six two pass rusher, you saw that show up all the time.

So I just think he's the type of guy that even if his upside isn't that high because of the movement questions, he's just going to be able to be able to, you know, to get in the way and shut people down consistently and probably be, you mentioned Dionne Dawkins, who's longer than he is because he has super long arms. But I think similar idea where you just want somebody who's going to win often enough and give you quality, reliable tackle play. And it seems like Leatherwood, to me, could be one of those guys. My comparison for him is Michael Orr. And, you know, I watched a lot of Orr in Carolina. And, you know, I think Leatherwood's upside is higher because he's a better athlete. But I think, you know, I think.

I think run blocking is his moneymaker. I think as a run blocker, he's going to be very good right away, very heavy hands. And he, you know, obviously being in Bama's system, he executed every single block you can ever want to see an offensive tackle execute, zone gap, pulling, everything. So he's a ready made out of the box run blocker, who I think is going to be high end. Now, pass protection is very murky to me, and that's kind of similar to Orr. or was like an average pass blocker I always thought he was just a stud run blocker that's how I see leatherwood to me it largely is technique and so when I saw him on tape I saw incredible amount of

twitch and initial quickness in his game he's sudden you know he's very sudden so like that to me I thought you know spoke to a guy who was going to test pretty well I didn't necessarily expect what he did but I expected a good tester And to me, it's technique, though. I think his hands, while he uses his length very well at times, he tends to rely on that a little too much and get heavy on his hands sometimes. And I swear, I think every single loss or 90% of the losses that I charted from him in past protection were to the cross job.

So guys who were able to get him to stop his feet and get him to throw his outside hand, just chop that arm down and and beat him quickly. That's what I'm talking about with the reaction. If he stops his feet, he's not getting going again. And that shows up all the time. Yeah. And I think if he could correct his hands a little bit, that would be mitigated to an extent because he's just giving up that outside

hand. And if you're late with that outside hand, if you're heavy with that outside hand and it gets knocked down, the game is over. You have no way of recovering. So I think he can, he can add more variance to the way that he's, he approaches pass rushers at the point of attack.

And I think if he can get that ingrained into his game, we could be looking at a, you know, a better player than like a Michael War. I think that's kind of like the floor of him. But yeah, I mean, I like him a lot,

man. He's a second round pick for me. You know, he's right there with a couple other guys that, you know, we might talk about, you know, he's a second round pick to me.

And I think he could play guard as well. if you want to go that route. I would try him at tackle first because I think he has everything you need, you know, to excel there. And I don't think it's going to get better inside. Your hands don't necessarily improve inside. So I'd like to see him at tackle first.

All right. Let's get to some of the top interior guys in the draft. I know that you love Landon Dickerson, who was the center from Alabama. Watching him is hilarious because my first thought, when I started watching was, that guy's huge. And then I looked it up.

He is huge. He's in like the 98th percentile for centers in terms of height and weight. He's like 6.6.330. And it's amazing that he seems to function just fine at that size. It doesn't seem like he has movement issues. If he can stay healthy, that seems like the biggest question with him. On a physical level, in terms of tools, what you watched on tape, where do you think his weaknesses even are?

Um, one thing that I have is I thought he could recognize like complex three, three man games and blitz is quicker. I thought he came off late a couple times, one versus Texas A&M. He had a late looper inside. He gave up a strip sack. Um, that, that was one that pops up. And aside from that, there wasn't a whole lot of stuff for me. So it was just like advanced processing type of stuff at tackle. And the thing is, I think otherwise his processing was very good. good. It's just there was a couple of scenarios where, you know, he could have cleaned it up a little bit. And if you, you know, if people watch my film room with them, we touch on some of those as well.

But yeah, I'm very impressive. You can tell he's really smart and that he would be able to just walk in right away and be somebody who could help with protections and things like that. I mean, he's the type of guy in terms of personality and obviously intelligence that I think you'd want to be your center. Yeah. I mean, his tape is just a trip, man. I mean, it really is. He's, you know, It's like Ryan Jensen-ish. It's, to me, I even saw Travis Frederick type of stuff, and that's a name I reserve for very elite company. You know, I saw that level of physical dominance, and his play strength is, you know, if you look it up, you know, in the scouting dictionary of elite, I think his face is right there. I mean, you know, cinder blocks for hands.

He could do all the stuff, you know, in terms of back blocks and reach blocks. and all the, you know, intricate center blocks that you would want a guy to execute, he can do. The mentality is just infectious, obviously. And, you know, just off the field is, you know, stellar. So, yeah, I think he could play guard at just as high of a level as center. So to me, that doesn't matter. You know, I saw him play guard against Tennessee in 2020, moved in.

He played everything. He played all five positions in college. Yeah, over the course of his career, he did. That's right. In 2020, I know he played left guard. I saw him. I mainly watched 2020. I watched 2019 versus Derek Brown, which that is a tape if you ever want to watch a game.

Those two going at it was incredible. But yeah, I think Landon Dickerson could be a dominant pro. It's just, you know, obviously the health is just a huge factor in all of it. But for my grades... It's not just the ACL this year. It was he had an ACL in 2016. He had an ankle surgery in 2017. I mean, pretty much every single year he's been dealing with something several season enders.

My other question, I'm curious what you think about this. Do you think you can be too big to play center in terms of height? Because there have not been many centers over 6'5. Even guys that started at center or came into the league at center, like Laskow eventually moved to guard. A lot of these guys, even if they started at center, if they're 6'6, they end up playing guard. So he would be in a very rare group that sticks at that position if that's where he lands. Yeah, I mean, I think you could be too big. It depends on the player. And for him, and one of my positives in terms of his mobility, I thought he had excellent mobility in his hips and ankles. He was able to lower his pads and get underneath smaller guys against Ole Miss. He goes against a guy who's six foot one. He's underneath him the whole game and just he destroys that guy in that game. But yeah, like, you know, I do think that a Grady Jarrett, Puna Ford, those kind of guys might be able to give him some trouble.

He hasn't seen guys like that. So, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if he had some trouble with guys like that, you know, because that's just part of the deal when you're six, six against guys like that, I think. But overall, I'm not too concerned about it. But like I said, if it doesn't diminish his value whatsoever because we've seen him play guard and dominate. So just put him in guard, you know, and he'll be just the same player, in my opinion. I thought it was really interesting.

There was a play you pointed out. I can't remember which game it was. But there was a three-man blitz with a cross dog and the safety came late. And they missed it. And it looked like if you were just watching that, that Najee Harris screwed up. Because the guy that eventually got to the quarterback was coming to Najee's side. But Landon raised his hand and it was like, no, no. Even though it looks like that, I actually didn't pick up the right guy.

which is why being able to ask them of those sorts of questions is so important because any layman watching that play would have thought that the back screwed up when in actuality it was his fault yeah exactly that's why i love that's why i had that clip in there specifically for that to ask him about it because you know there's there's some times where you just don't know you know and when i'm watching tape of these guys there's plenty of times where i say you know i don't know to mark that off as a negative or a positive so let me see if i could find it again and then if it occurs again, then I'll reach out to somebody and ask. But yeah, that was certainly one of those examples. And I loved his answer as well. So you loved him. He's your top interior alignment,

which I think goes against the grain a little bit because most people have Elijah Vera Tucker from USC. I watched him today. You watch him play left tackle, which he only did for six games in 2020. And it's drastically different than watching him play guard the year before. And when I watched him play guard in 2019, he's like the perfect first round guard. Like, his tape is almost boring because of how steady it is. He's moving, he's in the right position all of the time. He's never in a compromising spot, but the physical talent is still clearly there. Like, Zach Martin is not a name you want to throw around readily, but it just, it feels

like that, where the game looks easy to him, it's just very, very simple. And again, it's almost boring to a certain extent. did you see anything in the 2020 tape that would worry you or do you just figure that we'll move him back to guard, that's where he's going to be. I'm not concerned about him playing a little bit worse in 2020 than he played in 2019. Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel. I mean, you know, I think the problems that he had at tackle all crept up against Oregon. And leading up to that week, he did in practice with the hamstring. So that may have played a part in it. Also, I thought is snap timing. It was a little inconsistent. in terms of just being a hair laid off the ball.

That in conjunction with the hamstring, I think, and then also just maybe not having the best range in pass protection, kind of all fell into place in one game against elite competition in Kvon Thibodeau, who's probably a top five pick. I liked 97 from Oregon, too. He had some juices, a pass rusher. His hands were really nice. And he's like a 285 pound tackle playing outside in that game.

Yeah, yeah, no, seriously. Yeah, 97 was a player as well, for sure. Sure. So yeah, I've glad he said that one. But, you know, there is another thing, like, when he's on, you know, on his angle, on an angle drive block, I thought that his base tended to narrow and his pads rose a little bit and he wasn't able to generate as much displacement or movement as you would have liked to have seen. That's something that I think is totally correctable and fixable, but that's one of the negatives that I have on his tape or on his scouting report as well. Was that from this year, though?

Yeah, that's from this year. So I want to ask you this because when I was watching him, and there are some of those plays where he's not generating a lot of movement on down blocks and stuff like that. He's almost leaning on people at times. Do you think that that, because to me, it felt like he just didn't look comfortable doing a lot of that stuff out of a two-point stance. He didn't look as powerful, as explosive.

And that's a stance considering, I think he was going to opt out and then decided to play late. So obviously not a lot of practice. and he only played six games at left tackle, it almost just seemed like he was uncomfortable playing out of that stance compared to what he had done for most of his career. Yeah, I think that's a really good point,

and it's, I think, part of the reason why I just, he was a no brain or guard projection for me. Yeah, because I just thought he just looked way more comfortable there. I compared him to Joel Mentonio. I think he wins very similarly to him. The fact that he's as polished as he is with only 20 starts, that's, I think, what really makes it special, and he's only going to be 22 in June.

So young, inexperienced and polished, that right there is pretty special. He's a guy that's going to go 18th, I don't know who's picking 18th. It's just the number I'm throwing out. He's going to go somewhere between 16 and 22. He's going to walk in, be a starter from day one, and play 10 years in the league,

and you're never going to think about him again. That's exactly what he seems like to me. Yeah, I agree. He's a top, I think, four grade for me overall in the class. So I'm very high on him. And I totally agree. I mean, he's, you know, he's is clean of a prospect that I think as you're going to find. And he's very young on top of it all.

So he has, he's probably going to get better. Yeah. It's just so funny. Watching him there, and there's a guy that I want to, I want to compare him to you in a second because it's, it's so interesting to watch the contrast in their play styles. Because when you watch him, he doesn't seem that exciting or that impressive, but he's doing the right things all of the time. And then, like, his shoulders are just square. on every single play. Like, he's never turned in compromising positions.

He's never overcommitting one way or the other. It's just this sound, sound approach to the game. And then you compare that to a guy like Wyatt Davis from Ohio State who the splash plays are a little bit more exciting, but then you watch just how hurried he looks at times, how unbalanced he looks at times. You can talk yourself into the upside of a guy like that, but at a position like guard,

it's almost just worth betting on the steady Eddie guy that's going to give you exactly what you want all the time. Yeah, yeah, they're not in the same ballpark to me. I mean, Wyatt Davis to me is like a second round grade. You know, I gave him 7.9. Veritucker is 8.6. So they're, you know, quite different in terms of their value. Davis to me was actually a pretty clean cut evaluation.

I have him as a physical tone setter with good length, use of hands, and a really good anchor in pass protection. I think he can excel in any run scheme. He needs to shore up footwork out of his stance, weight distribution. He gets upright too often and he fails to locate guys in space as a run blocker. But he has the right demeanor and I think skill set to excel and pass protection and hold his own as a run blocker. The thing is, his 2019 tape was quite a bit better than 2020. He was hurt for most of the year, right?

I watched the Penn State game today and he looked like a completely. completely different player than he looked like in 2019. Yeah, yeah, he had a knee, a pretty significant knee deal going on that, you know, I think hindered his ability to change directions and his short area quickness. So, yeah, I think that that is a big part of his evaluation. You know, I'm kind of expecting more of the 2019 floor, you know, with the ability to ascend than the 2020 guy. But a guy that he is a carbon copy of, in my opinion, who,

you know, may not excite a lot of people, but when he was young and healthy, I thought was an above average player was Jeff Allen. When he first came into the league, I think build, frame, playing style, all of it is just almost identical. Then, you know, Jeff Allen obviously bounced around and got hurt. And then towards the end, you know, people got on him, you know, a lot for, you know, issues he had on the field. But I think coming out, they're very similar. And that's what I expect from why. Wasn't Jeff Allen a second round pick? I believe so.

Yeah. So that's how I see them. And I mean, just an above average starter, you know, going to struggle against elite competition like most guys do and, you know, going to be a guy you can win with who is going to be like a tone setter type of guy who can anchor well. So the other guy that you had near the top is Creed Humphrey from Oklahoma, who was your number three interior player.

Similar to watching Landon Dickerson, where he looks so different that other centers are used to watching, watching a left-handed center who doesn't wear gloves is like very strange. But every other aspect of his game is very prototypical. Like you watch him play. He is, I can't remember watching Worf's a little bit in college was like this. I can't remember watching an interior lineman who was more clearly a high school wrestler than watching Creed Humphrey play. Because the torque that he is able to create without any sort of movement in a phone,

booth, the way you can turn guys and just the hips. It is really impressive. I think he could be like a plus, plus, plus center in the pros. Oh, yeah, I agree. He's he's one of the six total offensive linemen in the class who I gave a first round grade to. So, you know, very high on him. He's experienced and battle tested with a lot of big game experience. Red shirt red shirt sophomore year he got inserted into the lineup in that season against quinine williams that tape really that was the first tape i watched um so impressive uh what he did against quinin in that game now you know quinine got him a couple times especially once clean uh with the club swipe that he you know that's where quinn and williams made his money on but creed humphrey anchored down

on him a couple times that it was just like holy crap he stopped him in his tracks um and that's when and was at the peak, you know, of his powers as a prospect. So his anchor, his core strength is phenomenal. He's able to root his feet in the ground and his posterior strength is very impressive. The wrestling background certainly shows up. He's able to seize control of defenders' frames, knock them off balance, generate torque, put him in the ground. And he's made every call for the last three years pre-snap football intelligence through

the roof, takes good angles on the move. I mean, you know, just he has it all. He's going to be 24 years old, week one. But when you're as refined as him, that to me doesn't really matter. It's notable, but it's, you know, not necessarily a knock. I think massive defensive linemen with premier length can give him a challenge and, you know, maybe stone him, stalemate him, maybe reset the line of scrimmage here and there at the point of attack. But, you know, he's just, he has such a complete profile, I think, as a prospect. And he reminded me a lot of a guy like Max Unger. I think he can win very similarly to him.

And that was my comp for him, but very high floor with the skill set to be, you know, like a very good starter. It's probably a lack of imagination on my part because we've seen so many guys from that program end up on this team. And they run, like he was talking in the phone room about running the GT counter all the time and the back blocks he can make. I just in my mind dropped him onto the Ravens as like their starting center.

It's so easy to picture. I don't know if they'd want to spend that much on a center just in the way that they've typically spent on interior offensive linemen, how analytically forward that organization is, and the fact that they just paid Zitler, not a lot obviously, but they just invested on the interior.

I don't know if that aligns with what they'd want to do, but just in terms of his skill set, what they need, everything else, it just makes too much sense. he could instantly feel comfortable in that offense. Oh, that's a perfect fit, definitely. I mean, also like Green Bay, he can work in Green Bay as well, you know,

doing what they do up there, I think. But yeah, I like the more diverse scheme like Baltimore for him because it matches up with what he did. He'd be comfortable in it. And I think that would make a significant difference for the Ravens offense as well, you know, compared to last year where I think they struggled at that position. because it was a revolving door.

I mean, you could just tell. I mean, it looked like they had it sewn up a little bit. And then obviously what happened in the playoff game. Again, it's a lot to commit to the offensive line when you think about what they're going to do with Orlando Brown. And if they do they need to pay him eventually, do they trade him? I mean, there's a lot of questions there. But when I watched him play and when you hear him talk about some of that stuff,

it's like he absolutely would look comfortable in that offense. So the last guy you had in your top five on the interior is one of the better stories from this entire draft, it seems like, how do you pronounce it? Miners, Meeners? Miners. So Quinn Miners from Wisconsin Whitewater, which Division 3 Midwestern football programs, I will always support. Do you, so you think that he really belongs in this group? Was it the Senior Bowl?

I mean, what kind of put him into this spot for you after what has been kind of a meteoric rise for him this offseason? So I got to watch like eight games of his 2019 season. I have not watched any of them. Just a heads up. I could not track down the Wisconsin Whitewater film shot. way. Thankfully, I was able to stumble across that. Very thankful for that. But yeah, I watched almost this entire season. And I thought largely until the end, and we'll talk about why, but

largely he was dominating competition. So that's, you know, a box, an important box checked when you're watching Division III offensive linemen. You want to see him physically just have his way with guys. And he did that. And then towards the end of the year, he got up to around three. 335 pounds and let his weight go. And then his technique started to fall apart. And you could see he just wasn't the same guy. So that to me, I think, was a really important context for his tape because some people say it wasn't as impressive.

And some people say it was. It depends what time of year you watch the tape. You know, towards the end, it wasn't as, but towards the, you know, the majority of it was, in my opinion. So that was a very important box check because there's some other FCF. guys in this draft and stuff like that who people were very high on. They didn't dominate. If you're not in Division I football and you're playing offensive line, you have to dominate, I think, to be a high-end NFL prospect. So box check there, went to the Senior Bowl.

And prior to going to the Senior Bowl, just to kind of back up a little bit, he revamped his body composition, started training with Duke Maniwether a little bit, got some technical refinement there, got down to 305 pounds back up. up to 320 for the Senior Bowl. So just totally revamped his body, went to Mobile, dominated. It looked like it was D3 tape. And then he tests like an elite athlete. So it's like, okay.

The box is just keep getting checked. I mean, that's exactly what happened. You know, high level wrestler, you know, all that stuff in high school. You could see that on tape. You know, I think he has really heavy hands. He could drop his hips and anchor. He's very quick, competitive toughness. off the charts. He diagnosed things pretty quickly, you know, as quick as you can with what you're

seeing at, you know, the D3 level. His frame, I think, and, you know, he has a very big frame, you know, rugged playing style. All that stuff to me translates well. And yeah, I mean, I gave him the Ryan Jensen con, man. You know, it was just too easy. That's your stamp of approval. That's the nicest thing you can say about an interior offensive line prospect. It was just staring me in the face, you know, and I think he could play. center or guard. You know, it doesn't matter to me. So yeah, I mean, I'm very high on him and I think he's going to be a really good player. It really is amazing just how many guys seem like they can play in this class. I mean, Davis to me is interesting just because he was a five-star recruit and there's

a lot of sloppiness in some of his tape and obviously the 2020 stuff with being hurt. But again, there are some splash plays in 2019. You talk about the anchoring. It's like, that's really impressive. And if you're going to pick him in the second round, I think with coaching with him could be huge. If he lands with the right coaching staff, it just feels like he's the type of guy that could develop into a quality starter. And then not even to mention the top three guys who we think could be immediate impact players, which, I mean, it just isn't that way often with offensive line classes. And then you think about the tackles, it really is a fascinating group. And it's an outwire group, it feels like, especially compared to what we've seen over the last

five years or so. And this is the year. This is the year. This is a is definitely the year to be a team like, I don't know, like the Colts who need a second round tackle potentially to start for them immediately. This is the year where that might be possible, which that is rare. That does not happen very often. And that's why I wanted to dig into this. And I really appreciate you taking the time out to do it, buddy. Oh, absolutely, man. I mean, there's, there's so many of like my guys in the three, four round range that we could talk about. But yeah, yeah, I mean, I have a lot of guys in this class who I think can be starters past the second round especially on the interior.

Who is your, who is one guy we have not mentioned that that you think is just a guy that could be a steal? Oh, man. There's, there's three center prospects, Drew Dalman, Kendra Green, and Robert Hansey. I think all three of those guys can play center day one and be specifically in zone schemes and be above average starters. So, I mean, picking one of those guys,

Hansey's a right tackle convert from Notre Dame. Kendra Green is just twitched up out of his mind. Former wrestler. Just so good with leverage. Drew Dalman is just extremely efficient and quick. So those three guys to me as center only type prospects, I really like on like, you know, late day two type guys.

And there's just so many varying skill sets throughout the middle rounds. Like Trey Smith could be one of the best players in this class or he could be a bust. So that's another one. I mean, there's just there's a lot of interesting players in this class. Why are, so the one thing I wanted to mention before we get out of here, you're comparatively lower on J-Wen-Mayfield than a lot of people are from Michigan. What did you see from him? Why is he a little bit lower on your list than he would be for somebody else? Yeah, so I saw messy footwork, limited range and pass protection, consistently missed his set points, consistently over underset guys, turns his hips way too early, creates soft inside shoulder. I thought he showed some stiffness and marginal lateral quickness to redirect. direct against shifty pass rushers, bad habits with dropping his outside foot and leaning into contact when attempting to widen rushers past the quarterback's drop, struggle to maintain

levels with his guard to pass off basic stunts. I mean, I saw a lot of issues in pass protection with him. Now, there's positives there. He's young. He's powerful and he's big. But pass protection, I thought was a mess. And it depends on what game you watch. Because if you watch him against Notre Dame and Wisconsin in 2019 against NFL pass rushers. He just got totally just dominated, I thought. I saw like an almost, you know, just like a day three type grade on those tapes. Then you watch him against Minnesota. He's pushing guys all around the field and dominating. So I like his toughness, size and power. But I think from the ground up, pass protection, he just has a long way to go. That's good to know. That's the one guy I think that you're the most

different on looking at these lists. So all right, buddy. Brandon Thorne, please go check out Brandon's work on Trench Warfare, his substack. I'm telling you, you guys will learn so much. People ask me, how do you learn about offensive line play? What are the resources? There are a few resources out there better than what Brandon is doing right now. There are film rooms.

I think there are eight of them up now, right? So there are seven of them up now with a lot of these guys breaking down individual plays. He has scouting reports on pretty much every single person that we talked about. at least a couple paragraphs and breakdowns of a couple games. A lot of videos of five plays he thinks show what these guys could be capable of as pros. It is worth the price for a subscription. I promise you guys that.

So please go check it out. Brandon, it's always good to talk to you, buddy. I'm sure we'll catch up soon. All right, man. Talk to you soon. All right, guys. That's all we got. Thank you so much for stopping by.

That was a lot of fun. It's a lot of offensive line talk, but we needed to do it. We needed to do it about this class. we will be back on Friday with Nate and another special guest. Very excited about that. In the meantime, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I would really appreciate that. Also, please subscribe to The Athletic.

Theathletic.com slash football show. We have tons of NFL draft stuff coming out every single day. I'm telling you, you guys do not want to miss out. Dane's draft guide is up right now. I don't know how you can learn about the drafts completely without it. It is worth the price of those. description to the athletic solely to get that this time of year. So please go do that. We'll be back on Friday with Nate. Talk to you guys later.

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